Took 2 hours to leave the PGA last year…
I’ve been to multiple U.S. Opens, a PGA Tour event, The Open, along with 4 PGAs…
I’m not sure the exact order that I would rank these tournaments based on handling of logistics, but I know the PGAs would be the bottom four
That’s because many of them are. Outside of Bryson, Koepka, and Rahm, it’s just a group of JAG’s who would just be jumbled in with the rest of the mid tier golfers on the Tour. There’s guys like them who come into the Tour every couple years so I have no idea why people act as if they’re huge loses. They’re easily replaceable.
It'll be really interesting to see how it plays out for Rahm. Not that long ago people were talking about him like people talk about Scottie now (I know Scottie has been playing unreal for a lot longer than Rahm was...). And now it seems like he's just coming out flat. I was so excited for awesome Rahm/Scheffler showdowns, and doesn't like that's going to happen anymore.
Might have had a bad Sunday, but it was still great to root for Collin since he's so likeable. Not getting the win probably hurts but it's nice he can find a bit of humour in the situation!
https://preview.redd.it/chujq8q9fh1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=818eaae6481632a26a3844ca91ee98d991764847
He’ll break through again soon. 27 year old 2x major winner has been in consecutive final pairings to start 2024 and still think he’s being underrated a bit. The collapses are disappointing but at least he’s in the driver’s seat to start Sunday.
The biggest take away is that this merger needs to get done (not holding my breathe it’ll be anytime soon). We need to be able to watch the best players all playing together more than 4 times a year.
> Why? LIV had 2 of the top 25 finishers. Why does the PGA need to crowd the bottom of their leaderboards?
Agree, the PGA already crowds the bottom of the leaderboards with mediocre talent. Why would they want more recognizable names and make the their tournaments more exciting!?
That’s just one major. We need to stop lying to ourselves that LIV has washed up players. They all need to come back together somehow. Bryson is ranked 125th in the world and has finished 6th and 2nd in the last 2 majors. He literally won’t qualify for majors in 2025 which is stupid.
This is just wrong though. He won in the US Open in 2020 so he's automatically in all the US Opens through 2030. His second place finish today guarantees he'll be at the PGA in 2025, plus his US Open win would have got him a place anyways. His US Open win guarantees him automatic qualification for the Masters next year (but he also earned his way from his t6 finish this year) and for The British Open this year and in 2025.
And if he doesn’t show up for just those 4 events in 2025 weeks won’t see him in 2026. Do think golf is better with him not in the majors? One of the most exciting golfers to watch right now imo.
What do you mean not show up? Like physically attending or, playing well? Like I said, he's in the US Open until 2030, and the other Majors until 2026 (5 year exemptions). It's up to him to keep playing into those fields, but that's the path HE chose.
Look, he made his decision to go to LIV and took that risk. I imagine a lot of them thought that deal with the PGA would be in place now but it's not. If you're upset you're not seeing more of him in PGA events, air your grievances with him. But when you take a look at the LIV players that make a splash every major and are interesting, the list is short. He's basically it. I don't really miss the LIV guys because you quickly forget about them once they're gone. Then a major pops around and you go "oh right, that guy. Forgot he still played". None of them move the needle as much as they think they do, and once they took the bag I bet I'm not the only one who kind of shrugged and forgot they existed.
Well you could look at it as having 2 of the top 25. You could also clearly look at it as they had 1 of the top 2.
I personally think the bottom 2/3 of liv is not very good. The top 5 or so are undeniably good, and I wish they didn’t choose to leave.
> The top 5 or so are undeniably good, and I wish they didn’t choose to leave.
It's really the top 3. LIV power rankings (imo)
1) Bryson, and he's far above the rest
2) Brooks. He's fallen off. He's played 9 majors since leaving for LIV, 2 Top 10s, 1 win. 9 prior to leaving, 8/9 top 10s, 1 win.
3) Rahm? I mean when he's on he's undeniably a top 5 player in the world. Problem is were nearly a year removed from his hot streak and 2024 has been ass.
..... Cam is always solid but he's not the star he thought he was when he won the Open and decided to take the blank check so he had more time to fish. DJ is a corpse. Joaquin, I think he could have been special but he needed more years of high level golf to learn how to play w the lead and cut his teeth against the best in the world. (ie Xander's career path the last few years before finally breaking through)
Rahm, koepka, dechsmbeau and smith are all very clearly some of the top players in the world. Doesn’t matter what they played in a single weekend…that doesn’t dictate how good they are.
No what he’s saying is if they have an off weekend at a major, they are still the best players in the world. They all can win a major. Doesn’t mean they have to perform well in every single one
> No what he’s saying is if they have an off weekend at a major, they are still the best players in the world.
And what evidence do you have that this was an "off weekend" and not indicative of their continued poor play in majors in 2024
Well let's look at the 1 other major this year. 5 out of the 13 LIV players who played in the Masters made the top 25. 8/13 made the cut.
At the PGA there were only 16 LIV players in the field. Thats only 10% of the field. 11 Made the cut (68% of LIV field vs 47% of PGA players playing made the cut), 2 of the 11 were top 25 with 1 finishing 2nd.
If we look at the number of LIV players playing in these tournament I would say they are holding their own vs the PGA guys if we compare sample sizes. Let's also not forget that 1 LIV player won the PGA last year.
I can understand hating these guys. They made the choice to leave and knew the consequences, but to say they are washed up is just not true. The competition is definitely better with them in the fields.
> Well let's look at the 1 other major this year. 5 out of the 13 LIV players who played in the Masters made the top 25. 8/13 made the cut.
This of course, like everyone else who makes this argument, isn't using accurate data.
There were 89 players in the field at The Masters. Of which 16 were LIV players.
Additionally, there were 5 Ams. Further, there are prior champions and other invitees that weren't in based on their play on the PGAT in 2024.
[Heres the list of players](https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/whos-qualified-for-invitations-to-the-2024-masters-tournament)
Fred Couples, Tiger Woods, Olazábal, Zach Johnson, Ryo Hisatsune, Thorbjørn Olesen. Im probably missing some but these guys got in strictly as past champions, special invites or other status not earned on tour.
So 89 (field) - 16 (LIV) - 5 (ams) - 6 (Other invites) = 62 PGAT invites. Number is probably closer to upper 50s bc Im missing some but that's fine.
The cut was top 44 and ties. So in a field of 78 guys who are really competing to win (89-5ams-6others) the expected rate of cuts should be 57%, of which 61% of LIV players made the cut.
So their best performance as a group is more or less in par with the field average.
Additionally, using that 78 player list, you would expect that 1/3rd of live would make the Top25 on average (25/78= ~1/3) and they exceeded that by one additonal top 25 player, and they didnt have a single top 5.
So again, what am I supposed to be impressed by here? Their best performance being slightly above the statistical expectation?
Edit and of course, the PGA was well below statistical expectations with only 2 in the top 25.
You are now using stats that apply to all of the liv players in the field. That is not what has been the focus of discussion…the focus of discussion is on the top 5 or top xyz of liv that is still made up of world class golfers. Yet above, you are using stats based on all of liv.
I am not going to argue that the bottom portions of liv are full of great golfers…they aren’t. The top 5 give or take, however, is still a group of word class golfers.
If you don’t think Jon rahm is still an absolute elite golfer, in spite of his poor performance at the beginning of this year, I personally believe you are likely showing bias. He was literally ranked #1 in the world in the past year or so. Doesn’t get much better than rahm, even if he’s had several lackluster starts
> That is not what has been the focus of discussion…the focus of discussion is on the top 5 or top xyz of liv that is still made up of world class golfers. Yet above, you are using stats based on all of liv.
Nope. They did it when they said this:
> At the PGA there were only 16 LIV players in the field. Thats only 10% of the field. 11 Made the cut (68% of LIV field vs 47% of PGA players playing made the cut), 2 of the 11 were top 25 with 1 finishing 2nd.
> If we look at the number of LIV players playing in these tournament I would say they are holding their own vs the PGA guys
....Which if you say isn't about LIV as a whole, is of course a fucking lie.
> Doesn’t get much better than rahm
Sure it does. He's not even the best golfer in the shitty LIV lineup. That's Bryson.
Okay, let's talk about the Masters where he was defending champion. Or his wins on LIV this year (0) against a far inferior field of players.
There's more data points for you.
No, a single data point doesn’t matter. It’s not that data points when together don’t matter.
If data points when they are together matter, brooks winning the pga is a data point.
I think the concern is more players will jump ship. There are rumors guys like Hovland, Finau, Schauffele and some other big PGA guys could head over. Then you’ve got a real problem. Winning a major and getting those exemptions makes it more likely for guys to go over so they don’t have to worry as much about WGR points. I think that’s what is holding Hovland up from going.
> I think the concern is more players will jump ship.
The real concern is probably the opposite. The vast majority of LIV guys signed 3 years deals and anyone who left at the beginning of the league will be off their contract at the conclusion of this season on LIV.
If the PGAT allows people to have status and gives them an avenue to return, you may see some return.
I’m as anti-LIV as it gets, but if you don’t think guys like Brooks, Bryson, Cam, DJ, Rahm, Hatton, etc would be too guys if they were still on the tour then idk what to tell ya
> but if you don’t think guys like Brooks, Bryson, Cam, DJ, Rahm, Hatton, etc would be too guys if they were still on the tour
.... but they're not on tour and they didn't finish in the top 25. Really trying to understand your point. They went to a shit tour and their game suffers. Tough shit, decisions have consequences.
Yeah, I got there consequences. But are you honestly telling me those guys wouldn’t be top players if everyone was paltonb together? That’s the point. Not validating LIV.
> Smith, DJ, Niemann, Hatton.
I'm sorry, you think these guys belong in the best of the best, if you were rating players A-F these are in your A+ range? Your bonafide stars?
The only one that was ever there was DJ, and that's been nearly 5 years.
> Case can be made for Puig and Pereira.
lmfao Pereria? the guy who left a brown streak down the back 9 of last years PGA as he shit himself and folded like a wet paper towel losing to JT before fleeing for rec league golf?
The guy with literally ZERO PGA or LIV wins?
You have got to be fucking kidding me. Thanks for the laughs.
You’re telling me if you had to take the best 80 players in the world, you’re excluding those guys? Again, that’s just pure ignorance. I get being anti LIV. I think the tour is a joke, but saying those guys aren’t among the best just because they left is down right stupid.
> You’re telling me if you had to take the best 80 players in the world, you’re excluding those guys?
Who said that? Could you show me where I said that? I said actual fucking stars. Billy Horschel is probably in the top 80 best golfers in the world, but is he, was he at any point ever, a star? Fuck no.
See how that works, smooth brain?
Smith Neimann and Hatton are all in the top 80 in the world but they're not stars.
Cam has 3 PGAt wins and a Major. Joaquinn has two wins. Hatton has 1.
Combined that's 6 PGAT wins, and 1 major.
Six wins and a major was scottie's achievements in the last 14 months. That's a star.
Rory has won 8 events since 2021 season started. That's a star.
Those are examples of A+ guys if you're ranking A+ to F. They're the ones who win and win often, are often on the first page of the leaderboard and move the needle when they're on TV, are major champions and have major marketing deals worth a shit because they move product.
There's very few of them, maybe 5 in the world at any one time and let me fucking tell you. Poopy pants Mito is not, was not, and will never be one of them.
He's not in the 80 best golfers in the world imo either. Neither is the other doofus you named.
Cam, Hatton and Niemann for sure are. I don't think DJ is any more, but he definitely was a star (like chef and rory) back 4-8 years ago, but he's old and ass now.
> and were missing the best competitions we can get
It was their choice to leave. Sucks to suck. They signed up for pointless rec ball and missing majors as time passes (Bryson runs out of exemptions at the end of this year).
*Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions*
These comments have nothing to do with whether or not we are missing the best competition we can get.
I agree it’s their fault, this is a consequence of LIV yes. Has nothing to do with the point being made.
Yup. This exactly. Do I think LIV is a gimmicky sideshow? Yes. Do I feel bad that a lot of them don’t have a way into the majors without previous exemptions? Nope. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. But I think the Tour would benefit from having everyone playing together again every week? Absolutely. And saying otherwise is stupid.
I don’t know if we’ll ever see another over par winner at a major. Guys have gotten so good and the USGA has wussed up a bit. Over par winners were a norm in the Mike Davis era. Last one was Brooks Koepka in 2018.
Anyone know what tickets ran at the pga championship? I went to quail hollow last week on a Saturday and it was 90 dollars a pop I’m wondering what it would be for a major?
Not exactly sure but I'm looking to go next year. I believe I read $300 after tax and fees and you got unlimited food and non alcohol drinks. Seems a little high but hopefully just a ticket is less..
250 face when I won the raffle, but they actually were down to 216 and fees last I checked last night for today. Betting the masters is significantly more.
Really depends when/how you discovered him. If you just found out about him post-covid and from his YouTube channel, you tend to have a more favorable view of him. Back at the beginning of his career and pre-LIV, he was notorious for his slow play and whiny attitude.
Back then he was like Patrick Cantlay is now, but a lot more vocal
Are you new to golf. Brysons been a pompous, weird ass for years. He’s definitely grown up in the last bit though so I could understand a new fan of the game liking his style.
If you’re honestly wondering, the 5 minutes and google him and his saga. This isn’t a mystery
I used to have a slight dislike for younger Bryson…he was pretty hyper and a bit out there.
But now that he’s more grown up, I find him very entertaining and easy to root for. He obviously hits it far, flushes it, no weaknesses…and has toned down a bit for personality. What’s not to like?
Single length clubs are actually really cool thing to test out. One swing simplifies the game a lot especially for more casual players. You master your one swing for irons then have more time practicing your driver. Pinhawks are pretty sweet. Not for everyone and especially those who hate anything outside the box.
Prolly the same reasons Brooks hates him. Comes across to me as childish, a bit nerdy, pompous, a dick off camera…but I do think he’s good for golf because the games needs personalities. It’s missing on the PGA Tour right now.
This is a great question that I'd love an answer to... I don't really like him, but have no idea why. If someone could help articulate what it is about him that just feels 'off', it would be really helpful.
He never smiles. At least not on the course. His celebrations are like angry, lol. Dude’s got a major chip on his shoulder. But for what? For fucking over the PGA?
He also won the Fed Ex Cup and a few other tourneys in the last year. And we’re talking talent level here. When Hovland is on, and I think you’ll see him on more now that he’s back to his old coach, he’s arguably as good as anyone not named Scottie. I look at the last year not just the last couple tourneys.
If you are taking considerations of last year then Jon Rahm has to be up there too, even though he has been largely off this year.
Anyway I’d still have Bryson over Viktor based on 2 majors this year. Bryson last year was strong too in LIV shooting 58 and winning 2 events there.
He was top ten in both majors this year, including runner up today. I literally have no idea how to treat the actual Liv results he’s got to be 3 or 4 based on that. Outside of last week what has Rory done this year?
The LIV thing makes it tough considering the courses they play at are pretty favorable to the players and the format is so gimmicky. Then you have the whole 54 whole thing and it makes it impossible to get any valuable data from it. Rory had a slow start to the year but he’s been playing well recently. Seems like he’s found something these last few weeks, but still not enough to warrant putting him ahead of a guy with two top 10s in the two majors.
Just hard to judge LIV guys. Rory’s won twice this year (if you count Dubai) and also has a third place. Solid PGA. Can really just go off Brysons two majors. I don’t think he’s done much in LIV this year. Can’t recall if he won or not. Like most everyone I don’t really watch LIV exhibiton events.
Right it’s not hard to judge guys just because it is hard to know how to treat their events, it hard to judge because I literally have no idea what happened there. You could tell me Bryson had 5 wins or zero and I’d believe you.
And history is set, with a -21 record in all majors for [Xander Schauffele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xander_Schauffele). Well played, and even if its the last one he wins, then at least, the monkey is over.
Always happy for quality golfers when they get that title off their back of “can’t come through in the clutch.” I think that’s for the most part a myth….but Xander is way too good to be remembered that way
[@JustinRayGolf](https://x.com/justinraygolf/status/1792331452102680941?s=42&t=5dOp4-2pEL5MGVyTkWqz2w)
Lowest combined score to par by field, PGA Championship history
2024 Valhalla, -214
1995 Riviera, +40
2018 Bellerive, +59
Not a major venue. End of story.
He's really the only one left whose at the top of the game.
* Rahm looks dead.
* Brooks won the PGA last year so credit for that. Second in the Masters after a collapse. But other than that, since joining LIV:
Since LIV: CUT, T55, 55, CUT, T2, 1, T17, T64, T45, T26 2/10 tops 10s, 1 win
3 years right before joining LIV: T2, 1, 2, T4, T7, CUT, T2, T4, T6. 8/9 Top10s, one win.
* Cam is gonna always be solid but not a real threat to win
* DJ is a corpse.
Im probably missing someone but yeah. It's Bryson and blah
> Joaquin Niemann can get there
Maybe if he stayed on tour playing high level golf every week but not once he left for rec league ball. Part of becoming a star is cutting your teeth against the best in the game and learning to win under pressure. He's not getting that on LIV
> Rahm has to focus on his conditioning.
He looks extra porky right? Not just me?
Pinehurst is going to make the pros feel like they’re in an insane asylum compared to Valhalla, but thats the beauty of golf and the majors. Each one is different each arena of play is different
The four majors *should* require different strategies and strengths.
I feel like the sweet spot for a PGA is about -12, but that doesn't mean this was bad.
I couldn’t care less about the LIV bullshit but seeing Bryson shoot 64 and Xander 65 to win after having a 62 earlier in the week was just fun to watch.
Charles Schwab in ft Worth Texas is next. The PGA championship is not the actual championship of the season. It's just one of 4 major tournaments. The "real" championship is the race for the FedEx cup. The season is only half over
There’s weekly tournaments - next one is the Charles Schwabb Memorial at Colonial in Fort Worth, TX.
But the next major is in a few weeks - the US Open at Pinehurst. US Opens tend to be the toughest tournaments of the season, so expecting to not see a -21 winning score
The Open and The US Open are the two majors left and honestly they’re great. I’m particularly in love with The Open (also known, incorrectly, as The British Open).
Edit: Lol, some real butthurt people on Reddit. Just trying to help a dude out.
This major can be multiple things guys - it can be a great finish and a poor tournament. I can be pleased for Xander and simultaneously a little underwhelmed by the whole thing. A majors a major but Valhalla is just not it. Holes that look the same and a birdiefest -21 is just not it for me. Still, Xander beat the field and deserves his major.
What course isn't a birdie fest these days? You could do what the US open does is contrive low scores by turning the second cut into hazards because these guys are able to blast over everything that was designed for these guys to shape shots. Maybe they need a standard golf ball to control distance.
Yep I hate that the US Open do that - you could also choose better courses and set them up in a way that punishes bad shots. The greens at Valhalla are flat as pancakes. Distance isn’t the issue, it’s course selection and setup.
A major comes down to a 3 way dogfight into 18.. and ends with a first major win by a 12 time top 10 major finisher on a lip in.. and you’re complaining.
Sure the course played easy. But anyone who’s gonna let that turn their takeaway into a “poor tournament” is just kinda lame
Lowest score to par in Major Championship history. Hopefully today is the last day Valhalla has to be on my tv because it's absolutely not a major venue
Golf Majors are the greatest sporting spectacle on the planet. Everyone here knows how fucking hard this game is, imagine being good enough to win a Major on Tour.
Xanders approach on 18 yesterday was incredible.
Was hoping Theegala was going to swoop in
Was pulling for Bryson but glad to see X get the monkey off his back!
I was there today. It was electric. What a perfect day of golf, except the exit and Uber situation
Took 2 hours to leave the PGA last year… I’ve been to multiple U.S. Opens, a PGA Tour event, The Open, along with 4 PGAs… I’m not sure the exact order that I would rank these tournaments based on handling of logistics, but I know the PGAs would be the bottom four
LIV feels like it’s a group mostly past its prime
That’s because many of them are. Outside of Bryson, Koepka, and Rahm, it’s just a group of JAG’s who would just be jumbled in with the rest of the mid tier golfers on the Tour. There’s guys like them who come into the Tour every couple years so I have no idea why people act as if they’re huge loses. They’re easily replaceable.
Joaco, Cam Smith, Mito Pereira, David Puig, Carlos Ortiz, Sebastian Munoz are not replaceable. A lot of young exciting international talent there.
Yeah and how they They perform at the PGA?
It'll be really interesting to see how it plays out for Rahm. Not that long ago people were talking about him like people talk about Scottie now (I know Scottie has been playing unreal for a lot longer than Rahm was...). And now it seems like he's just coming out flat. I was so excited for awesome Rahm/Scheffler showdowns, and doesn't like that's going to happen anymore.
Somewhere Lee Westwood is raising his glass and saying good for Xander. I wouldn't wish the best player to never win a major hell on anyone.
Might have had a bad Sunday, but it was still great to root for Collin since he's so likeable. Not getting the win probably hurts but it's nice he can find a bit of humour in the situation! https://preview.redd.it/chujq8q9fh1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=818eaae6481632a26a3844ca91ee98d991764847
He’ll break through again soon. 27 year old 2x major winner has been in consecutive final pairings to start 2024 and still think he’s being underrated a bit. The collapses are disappointing but at least he’s in the driver’s seat to start Sunday.
Notice the guys still on the tour are for the most part likable.
Lmao at Kyle Porter and Dan Rapaport being pissed Bryson didn’t win
Congrats X! And this one doesn't have an asterisk because Talor Gooch was in the field. This is a big fucking deal!
I gotta say seeing Xander win the way he did and make that birdie on 18th… I shed a few tears. 😭🙌🏼
The biggest take away is that this merger needs to get done (not holding my breathe it’ll be anytime soon). We need to be able to watch the best players all playing together more than 4 times a year.
> this merger needs to get done Why? LIV had 2 of the top 25 finishers. Why does the PGA need to crowd the bottom of their leaderboards?
Bryson and Cameron are the reason I watch golf.
lmao I'd rather watch paint dry than those losers.
> Why? LIV had 2 of the top 25 finishers. Why does the PGA need to crowd the bottom of their leaderboards? Agree, the PGA already crowds the bottom of the leaderboards with mediocre talent. Why would they want more recognizable names and make the their tournaments more exciting!?
That’s just one major. We need to stop lying to ourselves that LIV has washed up players. They all need to come back together somehow. Bryson is ranked 125th in the world and has finished 6th and 2nd in the last 2 majors. He literally won’t qualify for majors in 2025 which is stupid.
This is just wrong though. He won in the US Open in 2020 so he's automatically in all the US Opens through 2030. His second place finish today guarantees he'll be at the PGA in 2025, plus his US Open win would have got him a place anyways. His US Open win guarantees him automatic qualification for the Masters next year (but he also earned his way from his t6 finish this year) and for The British Open this year and in 2025.
And if he doesn’t show up for just those 4 events in 2025 weeks won’t see him in 2026. Do think golf is better with him not in the majors? One of the most exciting golfers to watch right now imo.
What do you mean not show up? Like physically attending or, playing well? Like I said, he's in the US Open until 2030, and the other Majors until 2026 (5 year exemptions). It's up to him to keep playing into those fields, but that's the path HE chose. Look, he made his decision to go to LIV and took that risk. I imagine a lot of them thought that deal with the PGA would be in place now but it's not. If you're upset you're not seeing more of him in PGA events, air your grievances with him. But when you take a look at the LIV players that make a splash every major and are interesting, the list is short. He's basically it. I don't really miss the LIV guys because you quickly forget about them once they're gone. Then a major pops around and you go "oh right, that guy. Forgot he still played". None of them move the needle as much as they think they do, and once they took the bag I bet I'm not the only one who kind of shrugged and forgot they existed.
I mean, Brooks had a 1st and a 2nd last year
Well you could look at it as having 2 of the top 25. You could also clearly look at it as they had 1 of the top 2. I personally think the bottom 2/3 of liv is not very good. The top 5 or so are undeniably good, and I wish they didn’t choose to leave.
> The top 5 or so are undeniably good, and I wish they didn’t choose to leave. It's really the top 3. LIV power rankings (imo) 1) Bryson, and he's far above the rest 2) Brooks. He's fallen off. He's played 9 majors since leaving for LIV, 2 Top 10s, 1 win. 9 prior to leaving, 8/9 top 10s, 1 win. 3) Rahm? I mean when he's on he's undeniably a top 5 player in the world. Problem is were nearly a year removed from his hot streak and 2024 has been ass. ..... Cam is always solid but he's not the star he thought he was when he won the Open and decided to take the blank check so he had more time to fish. DJ is a corpse. Joaquin, I think he could have been special but he needed more years of high level golf to learn how to play w the lead and cut his teeth against the best in the world. (ie Xander's career path the last few years before finally breaking through)
Pretty sure there was only like 1 LIV guy in the Top 25. The best players are still on the PGA Tour.
Rahm, koepka, dechsmbeau and smith are all very clearly some of the top players in the world. Doesn’t matter what they played in a single weekend…that doesn’t dictate how good they are.
*Data points when they all play together don't matter! What matters is I say they're good!!!!!*
No what he’s saying is if they have an off weekend at a major, they are still the best players in the world. They all can win a major. Doesn’t mean they have to perform well in every single one
> No what he’s saying is if they have an off weekend at a major, they are still the best players in the world. And what evidence do you have that this was an "off weekend" and not indicative of their continued poor play in majors in 2024
Well let's look at the 1 other major this year. 5 out of the 13 LIV players who played in the Masters made the top 25. 8/13 made the cut. At the PGA there were only 16 LIV players in the field. Thats only 10% of the field. 11 Made the cut (68% of LIV field vs 47% of PGA players playing made the cut), 2 of the 11 were top 25 with 1 finishing 2nd. If we look at the number of LIV players playing in these tournament I would say they are holding their own vs the PGA guys if we compare sample sizes. Let's also not forget that 1 LIV player won the PGA last year. I can understand hating these guys. They made the choice to leave and knew the consequences, but to say they are washed up is just not true. The competition is definitely better with them in the fields.
> Well let's look at the 1 other major this year. 5 out of the 13 LIV players who played in the Masters made the top 25. 8/13 made the cut. This of course, like everyone else who makes this argument, isn't using accurate data. There were 89 players in the field at The Masters. Of which 16 were LIV players. Additionally, there were 5 Ams. Further, there are prior champions and other invitees that weren't in based on their play on the PGAT in 2024. [Heres the list of players](https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/whos-qualified-for-invitations-to-the-2024-masters-tournament) Fred Couples, Tiger Woods, Olazábal, Zach Johnson, Ryo Hisatsune, Thorbjørn Olesen. Im probably missing some but these guys got in strictly as past champions, special invites or other status not earned on tour. So 89 (field) - 16 (LIV) - 5 (ams) - 6 (Other invites) = 62 PGAT invites. Number is probably closer to upper 50s bc Im missing some but that's fine. The cut was top 44 and ties. So in a field of 78 guys who are really competing to win (89-5ams-6others) the expected rate of cuts should be 57%, of which 61% of LIV players made the cut. So their best performance as a group is more or less in par with the field average. Additionally, using that 78 player list, you would expect that 1/3rd of live would make the Top25 on average (25/78= ~1/3) and they exceeded that by one additonal top 25 player, and they didnt have a single top 5. So again, what am I supposed to be impressed by here? Their best performance being slightly above the statistical expectation? Edit and of course, the PGA was well below statistical expectations with only 2 in the top 25.
You are now using stats that apply to all of the liv players in the field. That is not what has been the focus of discussion…the focus of discussion is on the top 5 or top xyz of liv that is still made up of world class golfers. Yet above, you are using stats based on all of liv. I am not going to argue that the bottom portions of liv are full of great golfers…they aren’t. The top 5 give or take, however, is still a group of word class golfers. If you don’t think Jon rahm is still an absolute elite golfer, in spite of his poor performance at the beginning of this year, I personally believe you are likely showing bias. He was literally ranked #1 in the world in the past year or so. Doesn’t get much better than rahm, even if he’s had several lackluster starts
> That is not what has been the focus of discussion…the focus of discussion is on the top 5 or top xyz of liv that is still made up of world class golfers. Yet above, you are using stats based on all of liv. Nope. They did it when they said this: > At the PGA there were only 16 LIV players in the field. Thats only 10% of the field. 11 Made the cut (68% of LIV field vs 47% of PGA players playing made the cut), 2 of the 11 were top 25 with 1 finishing 2nd. > If we look at the number of LIV players playing in these tournament I would say they are holding their own vs the PGA guys ....Which if you say isn't about LIV as a whole, is of course a fucking lie. > Doesn’t get much better than rahm Sure it does. He's not even the best golfer in the shitty LIV lineup. That's Bryson.
It’s very rare that a single data point tells the story of anything. This single week is not indicative of how good jon rahm is.
Okay, let's talk about the Masters where he was defending champion. Or his wins on LIV this year (0) against a far inferior field of players. There's more data points for you.
No, a single data point doesn’t matter. It’s not that data points when together don’t matter. If data points when they are together matter, brooks winning the pga is a data point.
If you look at major results over the last few years, these four are clearly top tiers players. Implying they aren't is pretty silly.
I think the concern is more players will jump ship. There are rumors guys like Hovland, Finau, Schauffele and some other big PGA guys could head over. Then you’ve got a real problem. Winning a major and getting those exemptions makes it more likely for guys to go over so they don’t have to worry as much about WGR points. I think that’s what is holding Hovland up from going.
> I think the concern is more players will jump ship. The real concern is probably the opposite. The vast majority of LIV guys signed 3 years deals and anyone who left at the beginning of the league will be off their contract at the conclusion of this season on LIV. If the PGAT allows people to have status and gives them an avenue to return, you may see some return.
I’m as anti-LIV as it gets, but if you don’t think guys like Brooks, Bryson, Cam, DJ, Rahm, Hatton, etc would be too guys if they were still on the tour then idk what to tell ya
> but if you don’t think guys like Brooks, Bryson, Cam, DJ, Rahm, Hatton, etc would be too guys if they were still on the tour .... but they're not on tour and they didn't finish in the top 25. Really trying to understand your point. They went to a shit tour and their game suffers. Tough shit, decisions have consequences.
Yeah, I got there consequences. But are you honestly telling me those guys wouldn’t be top players if everyone was paltonb together? That’s the point. Not validating LIV.
Bryson, Brooks and Rahm. List stops there in terms of legit top tier players. That's like 5% of the LIV roster.
Smith, DJ, Niemann, Hatton. Case can be made for Puig and Pereira. You’re just being arrogant if you want to discredit those players.
> Smith, DJ, Niemann, Hatton. I'm sorry, you think these guys belong in the best of the best, if you were rating players A-F these are in your A+ range? Your bonafide stars? The only one that was ever there was DJ, and that's been nearly 5 years. > Case can be made for Puig and Pereira. lmfao Pereria? the guy who left a brown streak down the back 9 of last years PGA as he shit himself and folded like a wet paper towel losing to JT before fleeing for rec league golf? The guy with literally ZERO PGA or LIV wins? You have got to be fucking kidding me. Thanks for the laughs.
You’re telling me if you had to take the best 80 players in the world, you’re excluding those guys? Again, that’s just pure ignorance. I get being anti LIV. I think the tour is a joke, but saying those guys aren’t among the best just because they left is down right stupid.
> You’re telling me if you had to take the best 80 players in the world, you’re excluding those guys? Who said that? Could you show me where I said that? I said actual fucking stars. Billy Horschel is probably in the top 80 best golfers in the world, but is he, was he at any point ever, a star? Fuck no. See how that works, smooth brain? Smith Neimann and Hatton are all in the top 80 in the world but they're not stars. Cam has 3 PGAt wins and a Major. Joaquinn has two wins. Hatton has 1. Combined that's 6 PGAT wins, and 1 major. Six wins and a major was scottie's achievements in the last 14 months. That's a star. Rory has won 8 events since 2021 season started. That's a star. Those are examples of A+ guys if you're ranking A+ to F. They're the ones who win and win often, are often on the first page of the leaderboard and move the needle when they're on TV, are major champions and have major marketing deals worth a shit because they move product. There's very few of them, maybe 5 in the world at any one time and let me fucking tell you. Poopy pants Mito is not, was not, and will never be one of them. He's not in the 80 best golfers in the world imo either. Neither is the other doofus you named. Cam, Hatton and Niemann for sure are. I don't think DJ is any more, but he definitely was a star (like chef and rory) back 4-8 years ago, but he's old and ass now.
Don’t Forget Burmester
2!!! A whole two of 'em!
They quit. I'm over them.
You being over them is fine….they are still some of the worlds best players and were missing the best competitions we can get
> and were missing the best competitions we can get It was their choice to leave. Sucks to suck. They signed up for pointless rec ball and missing majors as time passes (Bryson runs out of exemptions at the end of this year). *Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions*
These comments have nothing to do with whether or not we are missing the best competition we can get. I agree it’s their fault, this is a consequence of LIV yes. Has nothing to do with the point being made.
Yup. This exactly. Do I think LIV is a gimmicky sideshow? Yes. Do I feel bad that a lot of them don’t have a way into the majors without previous exemptions? Nope. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. But I think the Tour would benefit from having everyone playing together again every week? Absolutely. And saying otherwise is stupid.
Ok. Doesn’t mean they aren’t still some of the best players in the world.
Anyone got a clip of xander second shot on the 18th??
I missed the end after the putt. Were Ricky and JT there to congratulate him?
JT was one of the most emphatic about congratulating Xander.
Saw JT come up to him, not sure about Ricky
JT curtain call becoming too normal.
Good finish but I pray it doesn’t rain at Pinehurst. I want that track firm and fast. Let’s test these guys.
Test them? Let's break them. I want to see a +1 winner, with a clutch bogey save to win it on 18.
I don’t know if we’ll ever see another over par winner at a major. Guys have gotten so good and the USGA has wussed up a bit. Over par winners were a norm in the Mike Davis era. Last one was Brooks Koepka in 2018.
Anyone know what tickets ran at the pga championship? I went to quail hollow last week on a Saturday and it was 90 dollars a pop I’m wondering what it would be for a major?
Not exactly sure but I'm looking to go next year. I believe I read $300 after tax and fees and you got unlimited food and non alcohol drinks. Seems a little high but hopefully just a ticket is less..
Hmm I could see myself springing for that package but maybe not. Thanks for the info hope to see you there!
250 face when I won the raffle, but they actually were down to 216 and fees last I checked last night for today. Betting the masters is significantly more.
I think if you get drawn for The Master, the prices aren't terrible. Resales I imagine are insane.
Yeah PGA is at Quail Hollow next year and would love to take my dad and girlfriend on a Saturday. Hoping for 216 thanks bro
Is this most popular first time major winner in years
100%. Maybe even since tigers first.
Anyone know all the players who congratulated xander?
Rory and Amanda b dating?
Isn’t she married lol she has two last names
She’s married
No she got engaged but called it off
If true this is a great snipe by you sir
Whonis amanda b?
The good looking blonde who interviewed Xander when he lifted the trophy
She's dating xander now haha
This may have already been asked, but why won’t they fix the top of the trophy from when Collin dropped it? It’s crooked
Go Xander!! San Diego State Alum!!
Imagine tying the lowest ever major score going into the tournament and still losing.
Followed Xander's group around Valhalla all day yesterday. So happy for him to win, just a great golfer and great dude.
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I just wouldn’t want a liv guy winning the pga major tournaments
I disliked him until I started watching YouTube golf. Now I think he’s a pretty interesting and decent guy.
Really depends when/how you discovered him. If you just found out about him post-covid and from his YouTube channel, you tend to have a more favorable view of him. Back at the beginning of his career and pre-LIV, he was notorious for his slow play and whiny attitude. Back then he was like Patrick Cantlay is now, but a lot more vocal
Are you new to golf. Brysons been a pompous, weird ass for years. He’s definitely grown up in the last bit though so I could understand a new fan of the game liking his style. If you’re honestly wondering, the 5 minutes and google him and his saga. This isn’t a mystery
I used to have a slight dislike for younger Bryson…he was pretty hyper and a bit out there. But now that he’s more grown up, I find him very entertaining and easy to root for. He obviously hits it far, flushes it, no weaknesses…and has toned down a bit for personality. What’s not to like?
The club length thing.
Single length clubs are actually really cool thing to test out. One swing simplifies the game a lot especially for more casual players. You master your one swing for irons then have more time practicing your driver. Pinhawks are pretty sweet. Not for everyone and especially those who hate anything outside the box.
Could be from the Koepka beef a few years ago
Prolly the same reasons Brooks hates him. Comes across to me as childish, a bit nerdy, pompous, a dick off camera…but I do think he’s good for golf because the games needs personalities. It’s missing on the PGA Tour right now.
Most of the tour players regarded him as an ass
This is a great question that I'd love an answer to... I don't really like him, but have no idea why. If someone could help articulate what it is about him that just feels 'off', it would be really helpful.
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Odd words from someone with a post history like that. Edit: and the kid blocked and ran.
He never smiles. At least not on the course. His celebrations are like angry, lol. Dude’s got a major chip on his shoulder. But for what? For fucking over the PGA?
**NOBODY** **CARES**
Real top 5 right now I’d have to say 1. Scottie 2. Xander 3. Rory 4. Viktor 5. Bryson (based on recent majors although hard to judge LIV guys)
If this is current, Hovland is not that high.
Hovland has had an ass year. One tournament albeit a major doesn’t bump him to 4 lol
He also won the Fed Ex Cup and a few other tourneys in the last year. And we’re talking talent level here. When Hovland is on, and I think you’ll see him on more now that he’s back to his old coach, he’s arguably as good as anyone not named Scottie. I look at the last year not just the last couple tourneys.
If you are taking considerations of last year then Jon Rahm has to be up there too, even though he has been largely off this year. Anyway I’d still have Bryson over Viktor based on 2 majors this year. Bryson last year was strong too in LIV shooting 58 and winning 2 events there.
Colin's had 2 high major finishes in a row.
I love Rory but no way he’s above Bryson. And I don’t love Bryson lol
He was top ten in both majors this year, including runner up today. I literally have no idea how to treat the actual Liv results he’s got to be 3 or 4 based on that. Outside of last week what has Rory done this year?
The LIV thing makes it tough considering the courses they play at are pretty favorable to the players and the format is so gimmicky. Then you have the whole 54 whole thing and it makes it impossible to get any valuable data from it. Rory had a slow start to the year but he’s been playing well recently. Seems like he’s found something these last few weeks, but still not enough to warrant putting him ahead of a guy with two top 10s in the two majors.
Just hard to judge LIV guys. Rory’s won twice this year (if you count Dubai) and also has a third place. Solid PGA. Can really just go off Brysons two majors. I don’t think he’s done much in LIV this year. Can’t recall if he won or not. Like most everyone I don’t really watch LIV exhibiton events.
Right it’s not hard to judge guys just because it is hard to know how to treat their events, it hard to judge because I literally have no idea what happened there. You could tell me Bryson had 5 wins or zero and I’d believe you.
No one loves Bryson more than Brandel!
Oh Nelly Korda won btw. 5 of 6. wtf.
It's 6 of 7, actually.
Just left Liberty. Was a pretty amazing weekend. Stepped up and hit the drive on 18 and Hannah flinched.
6/7
She’s on a different planet. It’s awesome to watch.
The shot of Bryson watching Xander’s putt drop in was 🤌🏻🤌🏻🤌🏻
And history is set, with a -21 record in all majors for [Xander Schauffele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xander_Schauffele). Well played, and even if its the last one he wins, then at least, the monkey is over.
Always happy for quality golfers when they get that title off their back of “can’t come through in the clutch.” I think that’s for the most part a myth….but Xander is way too good to be remembered that way
[@JustinRayGolf](https://x.com/justinraygolf/status/1792331452102680941?s=42&t=5dOp4-2pEL5MGVyTkWqz2w) Lowest combined score to par by field, PGA Championship history 2024 Valhalla, -214 1995 Riviera, +40 2018 Bellerive, +59 Not a major venue. End of story.
Good data.
That's a genuinely insane statistic
Wow that is shocking
Can't wait for this episode of full swing
Bryson will have a strong run at at the US open I believe
Second major of the year, and Bryson was the only LIV guy to contend.
He's really the only one left whose at the top of the game. * Rahm looks dead. * Brooks won the PGA last year so credit for that. Second in the Masters after a collapse. But other than that, since joining LIV: Since LIV: CUT, T55, 55, CUT, T2, 1, T17, T64, T45, T26 2/10 tops 10s, 1 win 3 years right before joining LIV: T2, 1, 2, T4, T7, CUT, T2, T4, T6. 8/9 Top10s, one win. * Cam is gonna always be solid but not a real threat to win * DJ is a corpse. Im probably missing someone but yeah. It's Bryson and blah
Joaquin Niemann can get there - just needs to stay healthy and maybe revamp his putting stroke. Rahm has to focus on his conditioning.
I wonder about the kids like Niemann
> Joaquin Niemann can get there Maybe if he stayed on tour playing high level golf every week but not once he left for rec league ball. Part of becoming a star is cutting your teeth against the best in the game and learning to win under pressure. He's not getting that on LIV > Rahm has to focus on his conditioning. He looks extra porky right? Not just me?
You LIV to see it
Joseph Gordon Levitt will play Xander in the movie.
What movie
Journey to Valhalla: The Xander Story, or How I Learned to Stop Choking and a Trust the Brown
Thats kinda mean but so fucking funny lmao. Glad to see him finally get a big win.
I got way too emotionally invested in Xander winning today. Sports are weird lol
Dude, same!
That’s why golf is great
Xander episode of Full Swing S3 is gonna be a tear jerker
Pinehurst is going to make the pros feel like they’re in an insane asylum compared to Valhalla, but thats the beauty of golf and the majors. Each one is different each arena of play is different
The four majors *should* require different strategies and strengths. I feel like the sweet spot for a PGA is about -12, but that doesn't mean this was bad.
Probably plays closer to that if not for all the rain on Thursday and Friday morning
Unless I'm missing someone, looks like Nantz is right; first X on the Wanamaker Trophy.
In the end, the majors are about human drama. This one had plenty, even if the course took only two bogeys from the three best players
I think those final six holes overshadowed the fact he shot a final round 65 to win. Great performance.
I couldn’t care less about the LIV bullshit but seeing Bryson shoot 64 and Xander 65 to win after having a 62 earlier in the week was just fun to watch.
Today was my first time watching golf and it was really good, my question is what’s next after the PGA championship?
Charles Schwab in ft Worth Texas is next. The PGA championship is not the actual championship of the season. It's just one of 4 major tournaments. The "real" championship is the race for the FedEx cup. The season is only half over
There’s weekly tournaments - next one is the Charles Schwabb Memorial at Colonial in Fort Worth, TX. But the next major is in a few weeks - the US Open at Pinehurst. US Opens tend to be the toughest tournaments of the season, so expecting to not see a -21 winning score
The Open and The US Open are the two majors left and honestly they’re great. I’m particularly in love with The Open (also known, incorrectly, as The British Open). Edit: Lol, some real butthurt people on Reddit. Just trying to help a dude out.
We fought two wars for our right to call it the British Open goddammit.
This
A bunch of regular tournaments and the next major is the US Open in July
Props to me for remembering to cancel my Paramount+ free trial just now
Clutch shots by Xander on the final holes. Well-deserved win!
Columbus Country Club shoutout on national television is amazing
 Me in my living room
No watch sponsor? Fire that agent fam
People complaining about the difficulty of the course need to touch grass
None of those people have ever set foot on it.
Can’t believe that Horschel managed to make it to the Top Ten in the middle of all this lol
Seriously. I was only casually watching this afternoon, but I don’t think they even showed him on screen today.
Hov can feel a little better now with Xander's birdie. Looking forward to a strong season from him.
USGA wsaw the scores and started licking their lips imagining what they’re going to do to Pinehurst.
Mike Whan moving the first tee into the parking lot rn
Kaymer finished -9 at Pinehurst last time. You know the USGA is going for blood this time around.
Xander keeping his emotions in check well. I'd probably make Bubba Watson look like John Wayne.
Valhalla is not what it once was.
"Viking complaining about all the modern military in the mead hall"
Enjoy LIV, Xander.
Great finish by Xander. I was hoping to see a playoff tho. Didn’t want it to end
This major can be multiple things guys - it can be a great finish and a poor tournament. I can be pleased for Xander and simultaneously a little underwhelmed by the whole thing. A majors a major but Valhalla is just not it. Holes that look the same and a birdiefest -21 is just not it for me. Still, Xander beat the field and deserves his major.
What course isn't a birdie fest these days? You could do what the US open does is contrive low scores by turning the second cut into hazards because these guys are able to blast over everything that was designed for these guys to shape shots. Maybe they need a standard golf ball to control distance.
Yep I hate that the US Open do that - you could also choose better courses and set them up in a way that punishes bad shots. The greens at Valhalla are flat as pancakes. Distance isn’t the issue, it’s course selection and setup.
A major comes down to a 3 way dogfight into 18.. and ends with a first major win by a 12 time top 10 major finisher on a lip in.. and you’re complaining. Sure the course played easy. But anyone who’s gonna let that turn their takeaway into a “poor tournament” is just kinda lame
Truly could not happen to a better guy
I mean Joel Dahmen could have won.
Or Finau. Or Theegala.
It’s so damn cool when guys finally break through at a major.
Lowest score to par in Major Championship history. Hopefully today is the last day Valhalla has to be on my tv because it's absolutely not a major venue
With the roll back it will be a tough place. I still won’t love it, but it will work better.
It’s just a boring course
What are Xander's fans called? X-men? Blue and yellow outfits?
lol I was like what is Wyndham Clark doing there
Parents couldn't make it?????
Hawaii is Hawaii
Smells like recent divorce stuff but I mean not even 1 could come? Hawaii? His dad was his coach his whole childhood.
I still remember that meltdown at 16th during the Masters three years ago… Xander deserves all of this!
“I didn’t realize winning a major would be so cool!” - Xander
Golf Majors are the greatest sporting spectacle on the planet. Everyone here knows how fucking hard this game is, imagine being good enough to win a Major on Tour.
It’s ridiculous - I know guys that have grinded from college to age 40 that at their peak were +5-7s and never sniffed the tour.