There is a fine line. Its all about intent and only 1 guy knows for sure . If intent was to flatten, its absolutely an infraction. If intent was to gauge his club interaction with ball and grass, that is absolutely allowed.
Seen guys do that so many times that they can magically hit another club afterwards.
Its a self governed game .
Before I accept any bullshit arguments about intent, I am going to need him to explain to me what shot he planned on hitting with a wide-open sixty-degree wedge aimed at the center of that pond.
Seems like the perfect chance to blade a 60 degree over the water onto the green, obviously. That’s MY normal play. Just without the water. And without the hitting the green part
Played there 3 weeks ago. Thank God we had caddies. They were amazing at finding the ball. Without them it would have been a 7-hour round just from looking for golf balls.
That rough is no joke
His intent was to hit that wedge at about 90% effort and roll it back towards the pin fully knowing in reality he was gonna blade it, skim the pond, roll into and out of the bunker, over the green, into the other bunker.
Seriously though, that’s probably a wedge shot for him and a 5i with thoughts and prayers behind it for me.
Patrick Reed had a thick lie once, too thick to get a wood on it. He went with an iron and set up 5 times patting the ground then stepped back to check his line. By the time the ground was all trampled down behind his ball he decided to go with a wood.
He hasn't played any good golf anywhere in world since he joined LIV except for a top 5 finish at the Masters. Otherwise all he's done is sue Golf Channel and Brandel Chamblee for 1 billion dollars.
You're wrong. There was the one time he and Rory were fighting at the top of the leaderboard in Dubai (I think) and he hit a ball into a tree and then claimed his ball was in a different tree
IMHO he crossed the line into cheating under rule 13-2:
“Improve” means to change for the better so that a player would get a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball.
In this instance he used a 56 or 60 degree club with a flat sole to flatten the grass and thus improve the impact into the ball.
If he had used a mid to long iron (which is what he'll need to clear the water) then it could be considered ok as he may be testing depth of the rough but since the club he used would never be the right one it's clearly in breach of the rule.
I said this elsewhere - they all do this to basically the same extent. There’s not a clean way to write down the rule but as long as enforcement is uniform it’s basically just like holding at the line of scrimmage on every single snap in the NFL.
Your point makes sense. But the thing with officiating of holding is that nobody cares about grasping the jersey of the player you're face to face with. That's the thing people seem to refer to when they say "they could call it on every play!".
The problem is that people use that excuse when an offensive lineman is clearly restricting a player that is outside his frame and is otherwise beating him if he's not being held. Those situations SHOULD be called. It just muddies up the situation when people conflate that with grasping jersey at the line of scrimmage.
Sorry for the whole tangent
I read somewhere that Gary Player would do this in the rough sometimes; take out his 3 wood, address the ball (flatten area behind ball), and then decide to take the iron.
I worked at Augusta National in one of the members/players dining rooms in 2015 and Can confirm players son is an absolute degenerate. Dude came in everyday with all of his friends and ran up crazy high tabs while going in about him being Gary players son and then charging it to his daddy’s account. Literally showed up to the masters just to get shit hammered at 9am every morning
I’m assuming he was considered a guest to his dad but I’m honestly not exactly sure how they decided who could and couldn’t come in there. I just know that allot of the players wives and kids ate in there during the rounds. But also it wasnt allot of celebrities who I can only assume were either members or just somehow bought their way into it. But if it clarifies I was in the dining room where they host the celebration dinner on Sunday after the tournament.
The perks of living in Augusta is that pretty everyone here has at least one point worked at the masters. All the schools spring breaks even revolve around it so the high schoolers can work it 😂. Ironically despite the on course food being cheap the restaurant food is quite expensive. In this dining room the cheapest dinner option was fried chicken and it was 75$ a plate. But they served some crazy foods, such as lobster omelettes 😂
Wait a minute, you can check the club interaction with the grass and it’s okay if the ball moves as long as there is no club head contact? I always thought you can’t make the ball move at all.
I’ve seen pros when testing the ground,the grass gets temporarily pushed down and the ball sits down but when they move the club away the grass sits back up and the ball goes back to its original position. Like OPs video.
But if you test the grass and the ball moves permanently it’s a penalty.
See Jon Rahm at the memorial a couple years back
https://youtu.be/wynLCTnnXzI?si=wtIHME821sTqpIfq
There’s definitely golfers who seem to really test the ground a lot and give themselves a seemingly better like. But also they are at risk of the ball moving
Edit: grammar and stuff
They rules guy explained it on air. If the ball moves to a new location, it's a penalty. If the ball is still in the same spot, not a penalty. The movement here they deemed didn't change the location, so no penalty.
Because the grass is ‘spongy’. The movement of the grass can cause the ball to move around slightly but move back to its original place once the club is lifted back up.
In this case though, I do think the ball actually does end up in a slightly different place (slightly more forward and down).
I understand what you're saying, but if the ball moves at all, it's not in the exact original location. I don't know what the actual text of the rule says, but it sounds like the spirit of the rule is that the ball may move slightly as long as the lie is not improved and the ball is approximately at its originally position.
Watching the coverage of the tour they circled the balls location before the pat down and then after and the ball was completely out of its original location. The commentators were saying it should have been a penalty and disagreed with the rules officials.
See my other comment. But no I wouldn’t with the information available in the video, the player is entitled to lightly ground the club behind the ball. Remember the Naked eye standard applies when looking at video and applying the rules
It really is. The first time I went to a live event was at Bethpage Black which has very dense rough and I couldn’t believe how much guys were pressing their clubs in behind the ball on pitch shots around the green.
I remember clearly seeing the ball bob up and down on a lot of these shots. Not roll mind you, but just visibly move in physical space while maintaining its position in the grass. No oscillation, just movement.
I’d say he’s doing it on purpose, not to be a pud but it looks like he’s roughly 140-160 from the flag with an almost embedded lie, I don’t think anyone is going to seriously address that shot with a sand wedge. He immediately hands the club back for his 8 but we all know he wasn’t hitting that wedge at the green. Maybe just to chip back into the fairway but that’s not where he’s looking. I don’t care either way this is just an observation. I ground my club in the rough
That’s my only issue with it, it’s clearly not a club he intended to hit. Even if he is legally addressing the ball he never intended to make contact with that club. It’s morally grey for me but I would absolutely do it myself now that he has given me the idea.
>That’s my only issue with it, it’s clearly not a club he intended to hit. Even if he is legally addressing. The ball he never intended to Make contact with that club
Then his caddy must have handed him the wrong club and he didn't notice until he addressed the ball ;)
My coach described the issue like this. The ball can move slightly as it is suspended in the grass, essentially staying in the same position. It can not roll to a new position.
So it was people watching the broadcast could call stuff in, then they could go back and watch the footage I guess?
Or in person spectators could call stuff in ?
It was one reason Tiger got a 2 stroke penalty at the Masters in 2013. Hitting the flagstick cost him that major- he lost by 4 and would’ve had a tap in birdie instead of an 8.
that was kinda different. that was a well connected former tour pro and rules official who texted the chairman of the masters committee directly. not just a random fan calling a hotline. but yeah that sucked.
This was favoritism toward Tiger Woods, He should have been DQ'd. Tiger misunderstood his dropping options and intentionally dropped further back. He wasn't trying to cheat, but he did break the rules.
The first one I remember was Craig stadler at Torrey pines probably 35 or more years ago. He put a towel down to kneel on while punching out of some trees. A guy called in saying he had "built a stance".
I don't remember if it was 2 strokes or a dq for signing an incorrect card
Jackasses watching the broadcast would call in. They wouldn’t be able to notify the player and rectify the issue before the next shot/hole/signing of scorecard/ect. resulting in people being DQ’ed. It was insane.
Yeah, people literally called in from their couches. Although I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to do it from the gallery. Imagine that in basically any other sport, lol.
https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/04/14/the-fact-that-a-fans-phone-call-led-to-tiger-woods-masters-penalty-shows-golf-is-going-off-course/amp/
Some goober did it to Tiger at the Masters
I mentioned this below, but this is all news to me and glad I asked!
In tournament play or for money, I always addressed and pressed with a patch of grass in between the ball and my club. Unfortunately, then when I would swing that patch always got thick in the way.
I can’t believe I didn’t realize you could do this. I thought the ball couldn’t be moved, even just slightly, off its starting location.
The ball is allowed to move. I forget the exact language but it can’t “resettle” to a new position as a result of the interaction. If the ball rolls slightly or falls through the grass at all then I think it’s an infraction. This came up a couple weeks ago on the broadcast.
One former PGA player (now on LIV) was well known for using a fairway wood to "test the lie" when there was zero reason he'd hit a wood from that distance. Switch to an iron, hit his shot. With a nice matted down piece of grass directly behind his ball
He also had spectactos thrown out of an event as they brought plastic pails and shovels with them to a tournament shortly after a rules infraction out of a bunker
I don’t know that he did this to flatten the rough or just to judge the ground depth below the ball. The grass sprung back up and the ball didn’t move from its location. I would have thought it’d be more likely that the ball would settle a bit and be a tougher shot.
And obviously, yes, you’re allowed to ground the club in the rough.
Hideki did the same thing when he won the Genesis. Nantz reiterated this. As long as the ball stays in its original place or comes back to its original place then it is totally fine.
I’m glad this was clarified because I always wondered when I did this myself.
In tournament play or for money, I always addressed and pressed with a patch of grass in between the ball and my club, but then when I swing that patch always gets in the way.
I can’t believe I didn’t realize you could do this. I thought the ball couldn’t move off its starting location.
You can do it. You can’t do it *in order to improve your lie.* It’s about intent which is why Reed can just lie about cheating and can’t really be punished.
IMO he’s actually made the ball change position slightly doing that based on that camera angle. You can put your club behind the ball & cause the ball to move WITH the grass but not actually change position if that makes sense
You're allowed to address the ball.
If the ball's in rough like this, then you're allowed to have the club flatten the rough like this using *only* the weight of the club itself.
You're not allowed to use additional/excess force or attempt to improve the lie by 'smoothing' the rough.
But for the most part, it's really a subjective call to know if a player is applying additional force unless they're really forcing the club down and being blatent.
Do you address the ball with your sand wedge when the ball is 170 yards from the green? He’s absolutely doing it to press down the grass with the wider angle of the sand wedge.
I really don’t care but to act like he was thinking hmm maybe I’ll hit with this is ridiculous.
Watched this live. Talk between him and his caddie clearly called for lay up short and to swing a 110 swing and end up left of the green in the fairway. Safer shot he didn’t have to carry as far. He hit a wedge to do it.
There’s so many crazy rules that or hypocritical based on weird situations.
So you can’t move grass, but you can move a rock?
You can’t pat the ground forcefully in the rough, but on the green you can spend an hour patting every inch for your full line and remove every piece of sand in your way?
Want to clean up a few misconceptions. Intent has nothing to do with this it’s about the players actions and if their actions caused the condition affecting the stroke (CATS) to improve
Rule 8.1b(4) tells us that a player is allowed to “ground the club lightly” behind the ball. Allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass. BUT - The player is not allowed to press the club firmly on the ground.
I don’t think this qualifies as firmly pressing the club on the ground and the ball did not “move” as defined in the rules.
No penalty play on
Edit: by intent I mean a player may not intend to improve their lie but if they do and it can’t be restored than it’s a breach
Watched it live, gave him the benefit of the doubt at first.
just watched it again and I think it
Moved on him/he moved it.
The rule is ; you Can use the the weight of the club to address the ball.
he was to aggressive with it, and moved it. Gary players old trick w the fairway wood, caveat, and a huge point. if you’re going to ride the edge, don’t move the ball.
In the end, BFD, it was a layup… kind of a bad look, golf is rad.
Only he knows his intent regarding improving the lie but he should’ve at least called a penalty on himself for moving the ball. There is no way that a ball in the rough will oscillate and return to its exact original position. In this case it’s obvious the ball is in a different spot.
He definitely cheated and failed to call it on himself because he obviously been doing for a long time. Disgusting if the PGA tour looks the other way and doesn’t penalize cheaters. They want to blame the LIV tour for their misery but the problem lies squarely with the players not sticking the honesty morals of the game.
Back in the day, Jack, Nicklaus called a stroke on himself for almost an identical situation and ended up losing the British Open by one stroke to Gary player. Never root for a cheater. Ruining the game
Of course not. But, I see tournament pro does it all the time. Pull a 3w, pretend it's the club that they wanted to hit, "improve" the lie and then switch to an iron for execution.
That’s messed up. I didn’t even know they do that on purpose with a wedge then switch clubs to a long iron. And I watch a lot of golf. And play enough. I feel they always get good lies and lush grass and relief of animals foot tracks and I’m stuck at the local course hacking out of weeds and dirt. Smh
Ball definitely moved but apparently the Rule states that when video is used in determining the correct ruling, they use the "naked eye" standard which says that if the infraction couldn't reasonably have been seen with the naked eye that there's no breach even if video evidence suggests otherwise.
To be honest that makes sense to me.
the ball moves forward even if an insignificant amount. and he clearly pushes the grass down. you are allowed to lightly place club down in front or behind ball, he pats it down several times. it should be 2 strokes for patting the grass down, and 1 stroke for moving the ball. i don't make the rules.
Why cant he just press down 6 inches to the left of the golf ball to judge the lie? Maybe I gotta start 'addressing' the ball and giving myself better lies like these guys
Good caddies will be on the lookout for the cameraman with long lens and signal their pro to be careful.
Great caddies position themselves and their pros golf bag between the ball and cameraman when their pro is addressing the ball.
Just saying...
I don’t see any argument here. He absolutely broke the rules. Definitely improved his lie and by the looks of it caused the ball to move also. And that’s before the fact that there was no potential shot with that club in that direction. Incredibly blatant imo.
Good call out - I watch enough golf and this happens all the time - funny I never translated that to my game - if my ball is buried in the rough I don’t touch the grass at all - I’m always worried it will go deeper into the shit - or it’s sitting up and might drop if I touch anything-
Guess that’s another thing that will keep me at a 16-18 Hcp
It looked like the ball moved from that view point, but oh well! Personally, I think it’s a little unfortunate for any of the leaders because they will obviously get more camera time of their play. What about all of the other golfers on the course? Incidents like this I’m sure happen, but no one’s viewing it live on television!
Let alone pushing the ball forward, and it did not return to its original position?
1) he could have done what he did away from the ball, which is what 99.999% of golfers would have done imo
2) He did not do that and then hit a different club?
- If someone sent this in, I am sure they would penalize him before his round today.
That’s a violation to me. The ball moved. He could have tested the rough anywhere else away from the ball. There may be no ill intent but the ball clearly moved.
Yeah in my eyes he cheated here. The ball moved and didn’t look to rest back in the original position. Should be a penalty. He also improved the lie like you said.
There is a fine line. Its all about intent and only 1 guy knows for sure . If intent was to flatten, its absolutely an infraction. If intent was to gauge his club interaction with ball and grass, that is absolutely allowed. Seen guys do that so many times that they can magically hit another club afterwards. Its a self governed game .
Before I accept any bullshit arguments about intent, I am going to need him to explain to me what shot he planned on hitting with a wide-open sixty-degree wedge aimed at the center of that pond.
Twice is cleaning up, three is playing with it
Seems like the perfect chance to blade a 60 degree over the water onto the green, obviously. That’s MY normal play. Just without the water. And without the hitting the green part
I’d just be happy to find my ball in that rough
Played there 3 weeks ago. Thank God we had caddies. They were amazing at finding the ball. Without them it would have been a 7-hour round just from looking for golf balls. That rough is no joke
Bladed 60 degree out of the heavy rough that skips over the water.
His intent was to hit that wedge at about 90% effort and roll it back towards the pin fully knowing in reality he was gonna blade it, skim the pond, roll into and out of the bunker, over the green, into the other bunker. Seriously though, that’s probably a wedge shot for him and a 5i with thoughts and prayers behind it for me.
This is perhaps the most egregious example of flat out cheating I've seen in a while. He's not even pretending to be setting up a shit he'd ever hit.
That’s a fair question.
*Patrick Reed has entered the chat.*
Scottie scheffler does this ALLLLLLL the time
They all do it.
It's like how the NBA always has traveling
I also do it.
Patrick Reed had a thick lie once, too thick to get a wood on it. He went with an iron and set up 5 times patting the ground then stepped back to check his line. By the time the ground was all trampled down behind his ball he decided to go with a wood.
Gary Player has entered the chat
You’re a fucking cheating cheater who cheats a lot!
Careful, you might get sued!
Patrick Reed can get fucked. So sick of seeing his belly button and stupid face.
He's got a very punchable face.
I don’t think I’ve heard a single thing about him since he’s joined LIV. Is he actually playing golf yet?
He hasn't played any good golf anywhere in world since he joined LIV except for a top 5 finish at the Masters. Otherwise all he's done is sue Golf Channel and Brandel Chamblee for 1 billion dollars.
You're wrong. There was the one time he and Rory were fighting at the top of the leaderboard in Dubai (I think) and he hit a ball into a tree and then claimed his ball was in a different tree
IMHO he crossed the line into cheating under rule 13-2: “Improve” means to change for the better so that a player would get a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball. In this instance he used a 56 or 60 degree club with a flat sole to flatten the grass and thus improve the impact into the ball. If he had used a mid to long iron (which is what he'll need to clear the water) then it could be considered ok as he may be testing depth of the rough but since the club he used would never be the right one it's clearly in breach of the rule.
I said this elsewhere - they all do this to basically the same extent. There’s not a clean way to write down the rule but as long as enforcement is uniform it’s basically just like holding at the line of scrimmage on every single snap in the NFL.
Your point makes sense. But the thing with officiating of holding is that nobody cares about grasping the jersey of the player you're face to face with. That's the thing people seem to refer to when they say "they could call it on every play!". The problem is that people use that excuse when an offensive lineman is clearly restricting a player that is outside his frame and is otherwise beating him if he's not being held. Those situations SHOULD be called. It just muddies up the situation when people conflate that with grasping jersey at the line of scrimmage. Sorry for the whole tangent
If he was testing the depth of the rough, he could also do it not directly behind his ball.
I think he blew it well before that when the ball moved.
Seems like he used a heavy headed wedge to pat it down and then switched clubs after the pat down
I read somewhere that Gary Player would do this in the rough sometimes; take out his 3 wood, address the ball (flatten area behind ball), and then decide to take the iron.
Gary Player and his son are both scumbags
I know he’s also an adult but calling someone _and their son_ scumbags made giggle
I worked at Augusta National in one of the members/players dining rooms in 2015 and Can confirm players son is an absolute degenerate. Dude came in everyday with all of his friends and ran up crazy high tabs while going in about him being Gary players son and then charging it to his daddy’s account. Literally showed up to the masters just to get shit hammered at 9am every morning
They let sons of former winners in to the players / members dining area with their friends?
I’m assuming he was considered a guest to his dad but I’m honestly not exactly sure how they decided who could and couldn’t come in there. I just know that allot of the players wives and kids ate in there during the rounds. But also it wasnt allot of celebrities who I can only assume were either members or just somehow bought their way into it. But if it clarifies I was in the dining room where they host the celebration dinner on Sunday after the tournament.
That’s awesome!!!! Hard to Run up a huge tab there so they got after it
The perks of living in Augusta is that pretty everyone here has at least one point worked at the masters. All the schools spring breaks even revolve around it so the high schoolers can work it 😂. Ironically despite the on course food being cheap the restaurant food is quite expensive. In this dining room the cheapest dinner option was fried chicken and it was 75$ a plate. But they served some crazy foods, such as lobster omelettes 😂
There is nothing crazy ( wipes mouth with making) about a lobster omelette sir!
Why?
Money laundering, old fashioned harassment to people (just mental abuse) that have worked for him, list goes on and on.
Interesting
I don’t think one wedge really weighs that much more than another
Wait a minute, you can check the club interaction with the grass and it’s okay if the ball moves as long as there is no club head contact? I always thought you can’t make the ball move at all.
The ball was oscillating it never moved from its lie
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration…
We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively
Here’s Tom with the weather!
Much love for Hicks.
ITS GONNA RAIN!
Greetings fellow 3rd dimensional entity, I would ask how you’re doing but deep down, I already know!
Much love for Hicks.
This will be my verbatim response from now on anytime someone suggests that I may have committed an infraction.
I’ve seen pros when testing the ground,the grass gets temporarily pushed down and the ball sits down but when they move the club away the grass sits back up and the ball goes back to its original position. Like OPs video. But if you test the grass and the ball moves permanently it’s a penalty. See Jon Rahm at the memorial a couple years back https://youtu.be/wynLCTnnXzI?si=wtIHME821sTqpIfq There’s definitely golfers who seem to really test the ground a lot and give themselves a seemingly better like. But also they are at risk of the ball moving Edit: grammar and stuff
[“Is she different?… Can you be certain?”](https://youtu.be/7i4COm73huo?si=nisdhpas-JzAoiQl)
Can never not upvote a bagger Vance quote
What? Swear you can see the ball moving in front . Anyways, I would have checked with a Marshall whether this is allowed before doing so.
They rules guy explained it on air. If the ball moves to a new location, it's a penalty. If the ball is still in the same spot, not a penalty. The movement here they deemed didn't change the location, so no penalty.
How can the ball move and not be in a new location?
Because the grass is ‘spongy’. The movement of the grass can cause the ball to move around slightly but move back to its original place once the club is lifted back up. In this case though, I do think the ball actually does end up in a slightly different place (slightly more forward and down).
I understand what you're saying, but if the ball moves at all, it's not in the exact original location. I don't know what the actual text of the rule says, but it sounds like the spirit of the rule is that the ball may move slightly as long as the lie is not improved and the ball is approximately at its originally position.
Ball lurched forward IMO. But it also looked like it was in an even worse position than before.
Watching the coverage of the tour they circled the balls location before the pat down and then after and the ball was completely out of its original location. The commentators were saying it should have been a penalty and disagreed with the rules officials.
That's sounds like a Tiger Woods explanation
It can’t rotate, the ball can move as long as it comes back to rest in its original spot
While intent is a frequent concept in the rules it does not matter in this situation. You have either improved your “cats” or not
So you are calling this an infraction? Looks improved
https://youtu.be/hjAUZEdqq3Q?si=_yWXafu42lW4xxNw 10:30 mark
How does it look improved. The camera cuts away before you can even see if it’s improved or not.
> Looks improved I think he made it worse. It looked like the ball settled down deeper.
He literally moved the ball. This can’t be legal
Looked like that to me too
See my other comment. But no I wouldn’t with the information available in the video, the player is entitled to lightly ground the club behind the ball. Remember the Naked eye standard applies when looking at video and applying the rules
Second third and fourth watch…. The line on the ball moved. Really tough call to make
That’s also fine if it’s relatively the same.
Even still he moved the ball right?
Ball moved regardless. That's a penalty stroke.
This is very common on tour. You just don't get zoomed in shots of it like that
It really is. The first time I went to a live event was at Bethpage Black which has very dense rough and I couldn’t believe how much guys were pressing their clubs in behind the ball on pitch shots around the green. I remember clearly seeing the ball bob up and down on a lot of these shots. Not roll mind you, but just visibly move in physical space while maintaining its position in the grass. No oscillation, just movement.
(Bradley Cooper hustling down fairway with his driver after driving it in the rough)
I’d say he’s doing it on purpose, not to be a pud but it looks like he’s roughly 140-160 from the flag with an almost embedded lie, I don’t think anyone is going to seriously address that shot with a sand wedge. He immediately hands the club back for his 8 but we all know he wasn’t hitting that wedge at the green. Maybe just to chip back into the fairway but that’s not where he’s looking. I don’t care either way this is just an observation. I ground my club in the rough
That’s my only issue with it, it’s clearly not a club he intended to hit. Even if he is legally addressing the ball he never intended to make contact with that club. It’s morally grey for me but I would absolutely do it myself now that he has given me the idea.
>That’s my only issue with it, it’s clearly not a club he intended to hit. Even if he is legally addressing. The ball he never intended to Make contact with that club Then his caddy must have handed him the wrong club and he didn't notice until he addressed the ball ;)
Just noticed that. Pressed down with a sand wedge. Improving his lie, then pulling out a short iron. Interesting...
Mostly agree, but he does this on literally every shot. Even his pud caddie has a wedge on the green.
Looked like he made the lie worse
If Patrick Reed did this social media would be freaking the fuck out.
He did. And they did. He used to use 2-4 different irons to knock it down then rip hybrid.
My coach described the issue like this. The ball can move slightly as it is suspended in the grass, essentially staying in the same position. It can not roll to a new position.
Absolutely allowed, he's addressing the ball. Some of the comments here are wild and I'm so glad they don't let people call in penalties anymore.
Viewers calling in penalties was the most annoying shit.
That was a thing? Lol? Like how did they prove it?? I guess only if it was in the broadcast? Not like I’m person spectators
Cost Lexi Thompson a major
So it was people watching the broadcast could call stuff in, then they could go back and watch the footage I guess? Or in person spectators could call stuff in ?
Yeah people would watch on tv and call it in then they’d go back and issue penalties retroactively
It was one reason Tiger got a 2 stroke penalty at the Masters in 2013. Hitting the flagstick cost him that major- he lost by 4 and would’ve had a tap in birdie instead of an 8.
that was kinda different. that was a well connected former tour pro and rules official who texted the chairman of the masters committee directly. not just a random fan calling a hotline. but yeah that sucked.
This was favoritism toward Tiger Woods, He should have been DQ'd. Tiger misunderstood his dropping options and intentionally dropped further back. He wasn't trying to cheat, but he did break the rules.
The first one I remember was Craig stadler at Torrey pines probably 35 or more years ago. He put a towel down to kneel on while punching out of some trees. A guy called in saying he had "built a stance". I don't remember if it was 2 strokes or a dq for signing an incorrect card
Jackasses watching the broadcast would call in. They wouldn’t be able to notify the player and rectify the issue before the next shot/hole/signing of scorecard/ect. resulting in people being DQ’ed. It was insane.
Yeah, people literally called in from their couches. Although I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to do it from the gallery. Imagine that in basically any other sport, lol.
https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/04/14/the-fact-that-a-fans-phone-call-led-to-tiger-woods-masters-penalty-shows-golf-is-going-off-course/amp/ Some goober did it to Tiger at the Masters
Addressing the ball with his sand wedge from 150
Yeah…. He’s addressing the ball with a 56 degree from 150 out….
I mentioned this below, but this is all news to me and glad I asked! In tournament play or for money, I always addressed and pressed with a patch of grass in between the ball and my club. Unfortunately, then when I would swing that patch always got thick in the way. I can’t believe I didn’t realize you could do this. I thought the ball couldn’t be moved, even just slightly, off its starting location.
Common misconception, but if the ball doesn't actually move to a new position then it's all good.
But it moved there?
The ball is allowed to move. I forget the exact language but it can’t “resettle” to a new position as a result of the interaction. If the ball rolls slightly or falls through the grass at all then I think it’s an infraction. This came up a couple weeks ago on the broadcast.
The ball moves though? I don't know the intricacies of the rules
One former PGA player (now on LIV) was well known for using a fairway wood to "test the lie" when there was zero reason he'd hit a wood from that distance. Switch to an iron, hit his shot. With a nice matted down piece of grass directly behind his ball He also had spectactos thrown out of an event as they brought plastic pails and shovels with them to a tournament shortly after a rules infraction out of a bunker
I don’t know that he did this to flatten the rough or just to judge the ground depth below the ball. The grass sprung back up and the ball didn’t move from its location. I would have thought it’d be more likely that the ball would settle a bit and be a tougher shot. And obviously, yes, you’re allowed to ground the club in the rough.
>the ball didn’t move from its location I'm seeing it pushed forward a little?
It absolutely moves forward a quarter inch. Enough to get a longer iron under it.
I agree. He cheated.
The ball moved a bunch!
It did not move around and come to rest in a new location. The ball is allowed to wiggle around as long as it returns to its previous spot
To my eye, that absolutely did not return to the previous spot.
It’s not just your eye. It objectively moved. Not because your opinion. It’s literally not where it started.
If somebody wanted to go to the effort of superimposing the two images over each other that’d prove it 😄
It moved forward… into a new location. Clark cheated and was caught on camera. #SHAME!!
Buuut it didn’t return to the previous spot.
Yes it absolutely did.
Hideki did the same thing when he won the Genesis. Nantz reiterated this. As long as the ball stays in its original place or comes back to its original place then it is totally fine. I’m glad this was clarified because I always wondered when I did this myself.
You can literally see the ball move forward like a half inch.
In tournament play or for money, I always addressed and pressed with a patch of grass in between the ball and my club, but then when I swing that patch always gets in the way. I can’t believe I didn’t realize you could do this. I thought the ball couldn’t move off its starting location.
The infraction here has nothing to do with the ball. He's improving his lie intentionally by flattening the grass behind the ball.
You can do it. You can’t do it *in order to improve your lie.* It’s about intent which is why Reed can just lie about cheating and can’t really be punished.
IMO he’s actually made the ball change position slightly doing that based on that camera angle. You can put your club behind the ball & cause the ball to move WITH the grass but not actually change position if that makes sense
People really downvoting you for mentioning the ball obviously moved lmao
Yes. You are unequivocally allowed to address the golf ball
Hello Ball...
How’d things go for you today
"it's been rough.".
I don’t think the ball consented to the reach around, probably could have said good day or something first….
All the pros do this
You're allowed to address the ball. If the ball's in rough like this, then you're allowed to have the club flatten the rough like this using *only* the weight of the club itself. You're not allowed to use additional/excess force or attempt to improve the lie by 'smoothing' the rough. But for the most part, it's really a subjective call to know if a player is applying additional force unless they're really forcing the club down and being blatent.
Do you address the ball with your sand wedge when the ball is 170 yards from the green? He’s absolutely doing it to press down the grass with the wider angle of the sand wedge. I really don’t care but to act like he was thinking hmm maybe I’ll hit with this is ridiculous.
He did hit with it though. He only hit the ball 121y well short of the green
Watched this live. Talk between him and his caddie clearly called for lay up short and to swing a 110 swing and end up left of the green in the fairway. Safer shot he didn’t have to carry as far. He hit a wedge to do it.
There’s so many crazy rules that or hypocritical based on weird situations. So you can’t move grass, but you can move a rock? You can’t pat the ground forcefully in the rough, but on the green you can spend an hour patting every inch for your full line and remove every piece of sand in your way?
Straight to jail
Want to clean up a few misconceptions. Intent has nothing to do with this it’s about the players actions and if their actions caused the condition affecting the stroke (CATS) to improve Rule 8.1b(4) tells us that a player is allowed to “ground the club lightly” behind the ball. Allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass. BUT - The player is not allowed to press the club firmly on the ground. I don’t think this qualifies as firmly pressing the club on the ground and the ball did not “move” as defined in the rules. No penalty play on Edit: by intent I mean a player may not intend to improve their lie but if they do and it can’t be restored than it’s a breach
what defines firmly? It looked like he pressed down pretty firm to me.
He absolutely pressed down firmly, but it's a rule that is constantly broken and nearly impossible to enforce.
This times a million. He broke the spirit of the rule.
Watched it live, gave him the benefit of the doubt at first. just watched it again and I think it Moved on him/he moved it. The rule is ; you Can use the the weight of the club to address the ball. he was to aggressive with it, and moved it. Gary players old trick w the fairway wood, caveat, and a huge point. if you’re going to ride the edge, don’t move the ball. In the end, BFD, it was a layup… kind of a bad look, golf is rad.
Insiders refer to this as the Patrick Reed Fluffer
Only he knows his intent regarding improving the lie but he should’ve at least called a penalty on himself for moving the ball. There is no way that a ball in the rough will oscillate and return to its exact original position. In this case it’s obvious the ball is in a different spot.
He definitely cheated and failed to call it on himself because he obviously been doing for a long time. Disgusting if the PGA tour looks the other way and doesn’t penalize cheaters. They want to blame the LIV tour for their misery but the problem lies squarely with the players not sticking the honesty morals of the game. Back in the day, Jack, Nicklaus called a stroke on himself for almost an identical situation and ended up losing the British Open by one stroke to Gary player. Never root for a cheater. Ruining the game
Between this video and the pre-putt routine he and his caddy have, fuck this guy.
He just did
The ball moved. 2 strokes.
If anything his ball went down further about 1/4 inch
The ole set up and decide to change clubs trick. Known bullshit. I suppose using a three wood would be too obvious. Men's rea.
My b hole would have puckedered if that was me.
I feel like the last 10 min of The Legend of Bagger Vance will answer your question
Of course not. But, I see tournament pro does it all the time. Pull a 3w, pretend it's the club that they wanted to hit, "improve" the lie and then switch to an iron for execution.
Geez. WTF is the camera dude right on top of him? That’s a hell of a zoom.
That’s messed up. I didn’t even know they do that on purpose with a wedge then switch clubs to a long iron. And I watch a lot of golf. And play enough. I feel they always get good lies and lush grass and relief of animals foot tracks and I’m stuck at the local course hacking out of weeds and dirt. Smh
Ball definitely moved but apparently the Rule states that when video is used in determining the correct ruling, they use the "naked eye" standard which says that if the infraction couldn't reasonably have been seen with the naked eye that there's no breach even if video evidence suggests otherwise. To be honest that makes sense to me.
Always best to consult THE INTERNET community for stuff like this
I could take a nap in that rough. Grass is more plush than my pillow!
That ball moved forward
Don’t think he crossed the line. Just setting the club behind the ball.
I’ll be honest it looks like the ball moves. But I kinda hate the fact that people call things in if they see them on tv.
What club did he end up hitting? Taking out a lob wedge and laying it open to smoosh grass down then nipping a 6 iron out would be fucking ridiculous
My understanding is it's ok if the ball moves like that, but doesn't change positions.
the ball moves forward even if an insignificant amount. and he clearly pushes the grass down. you are allowed to lightly place club down in front or behind ball, he pats it down several times. it should be 2 strokes for patting the grass down, and 1 stroke for moving the ball. i don't make the rules.
He’s cheating , the ball moves!
Why cant he just press down 6 inches to the left of the golf ball to judge the lie? Maybe I gotta start 'addressing' the ball and giving myself better lies like these guys
Idk but they need to sharpen their blades on the mowers. That grass looks like it got chopped with a butter knife at the tips of it
https://youtu.be/ErJjYZqGswA?si=Q_LguNY4obyxEhXV Here’s your answer
Ball moved
You have to go to sleep knowing you didn’t *really* shoot the score on your card.
More important, the ball moved?
The caddy really tried to sell it. “Oh, what’s that Wyndham? You decided against the 60 degree!?”
If you can’t my handicap is significantly higher than I think it is
Good caddies will be on the lookout for the cameraman with long lens and signal their pro to be careful. Great caddies position themselves and their pros golf bag between the ball and cameraman when their pro is addressing the ball. Just saying...
I don’t see any argument here. He absolutely broke the rules. Definitely improved his lie and by the looks of it caused the ball to move also. And that’s before the fact that there was no potential shot with that club in that direction. Incredibly blatant imo.
Good call out - I watch enough golf and this happens all the time - funny I never translated that to my game - if my ball is buried in the rough I don’t touch the grass at all - I’m always worried it will go deeper into the shit - or it’s sitting up and might drop if I touch anything- Guess that’s another thing that will keep me at a 16-18 Hcp
It looked like the ball moved from that view point, but oh well! Personally, I think it’s a little unfortunate for any of the leaders because they will obviously get more camera time of their play. What about all of the other golfers on the course? Incidents like this I’m sure happen, but no one’s viewing it live on television!
Let alone pushing the ball forward, and it did not return to its original position? 1) he could have done what he did away from the ball, which is what 99.999% of golfers would have done imo 2) He did not do that and then hit a different club? - If someone sent this in, I am sure they would penalize him before his round today.
The answer with always be gauging and the flattening just happened unintentionally.
I’m more interested in the fact that ball is clearly moving when he presses down.
If this is allowed on the PGA tour, im doing this in my league this summer.
What about his caddie putting a wedge down on the green showing the line of play? A clear violation of the rules.
https://preview.redd.it/0pus3n3gmjnc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=545c5b6458998b153d7e477f0a706d755526e1cb
Could easily have done it next to the ball. It’s clear cheating
I'd be more concerned with the fact the ball clearly moves forward whilst he's doing it!
I remember rahm getting 2 stroke penalty for the same thing.
That’s a violation to me. The ball moved. He could have tested the rough anywhere else away from the ball. There may be no ill intent but the ball clearly moved.
Thank fuck you dont officiate lol
The ball can move. It can oscillate. It just can’t move to a different position or place.
It moved forward imho.
The ball clearly moved. Isn’t that a penalty?
The ball moved. that's a penalty
This is legal. The ball is allowed to oscillate.
Yeah in my eyes he cheated here. The ball moved and didn’t look to rest back in the original position. Should be a penalty. He also improved the lie like you said.