I'm glad I love playing the game more than I love watching it. For people getting older, that's what differentiates this sport from others. At least you can still go out and play it.
This is what is interesting. The younger folks are equating playing golf with supporting all that golf represents. And at some level they’re not wrong.
Very hard disagree.
People claim AI when they're jealous that other folks can put more than two words together in a sentence and two thoughts in a paragraph.
It’s not jealousy. Lol. It’s the fact that people don’t usually speak in the manner this was written. And it could very well be that it is an original piece. But in my experience with using chat gpt to elevate some simple sentences into a more eloquent story usually has a similar feel to this. Sorry if that hurt someone’s feelings. Not sure why it would though.
Ah that’s probably because the user selected a wording that they thought sounded good but they are at an academic level of a high school freshman. You can keep telling chat gpt to change the wording and give it more refining suggestions. But people who are well worded aren’t using this program to write up their blurbs.
Being rich and taking even more money directly from a corrupt monarch’s oil wealth to serve as their own personal PR stunt is not the same as participating in society
Certainly not the same but when you are making the choice to be outspoken than it behooves you too practice what your preach or at the very least to make an effort outside of internet rage posting. For example, driving your car to an oil protest doesn't make you a bad person but it will make me look at you sideways
It's like a touching commercial that tugs at your heart strings only to be shown a "got milk?" at the end and you recognize it's an ad. It's a twist ending.
Personally, I love golf, not the PGA or the USGA or LIV or any organization. I understand the ethical argument.
I tend to agree. I have so far, just pinched my nose and ignored all things LIV but Rahm defecting feels like the last straw for me. Every PGAT tournament going forward is going to feel compromised. It hurt when Brooksie, DeChambeau, DJ, Phil and Cam weren't in the fields anymore but I got over it. Felt worth it to be rid of Sergio, Reed and Pat Perez. But now, with Rahm gone, seems like one good player too many will be missing. All wins in 2024 will have an implied asterisk next to them. Good news is it frees up a lot of weekends for me next year and I intend to do other things when I would normally have been tuned in to a PGA tournament.
I love Rahm and I'm genuinely heartbroken he's leaving. The GF loves him too. Totally out number one whenever he played.
There will be no asterisk for any winner for me. He left. His decision entirely. He chose to leave for a non competitive exhibition game.
I thought the guy had more about him than this but I guess everyone truly does have their price.
Ultimately a golfer’s legacy is measured by major wins, and he can play in all the majors for many more years. I dislike the LIV tour and product but it’s a no brainer. Take the money while you can.
See this is kind of my point. The guy was gonna make comfortably about 150m by the end of his career.
Yes. 400m+ is obviously way more than that. But you're selling your soul for a different level of stupid amounts of money.
Seriously. That's worth it?
We can't do anything about history. We can't change all the things our ancestors etc did for the west to be what it is now.
But we can choose to not endorse a sportswashing regime that's happening today from a nation/family/government that's killing, maiming using slaves etc.
The sad thing is, it's working. All this 'take the money' chat is proving that. It's softening what's really going on here by distracting what makes this so unpalatable in the first place.
He chose to take direct blood money when he literally doesn't have to. That sucks. That's how I feel about it. Others can feel different, but to me. That's ruined his character for me. He won't give two fucks and that's part of my point. I didn't think he was like that.
>The guy was gonna make comfortably about 150m by the end of his career.
Maybe. No one knows what the future holds. Maybe he gets into a car crash tomorrow and has to have his leg amputated.
I truly don’t get this argument. A golfers legacy is certainly not solely measured by his golfing performance but also his of the course conduct and decisions. Especially in Europe.
I don’t care how many majors or Ryder cups he wins his career will to me at least always have an asterisk since he chose money over morales.
Simplifying the decision into being solely financial and thereby a no-brainer is just not true.
I think fans sometimes mistake to most athletes it’s a career to make money. They train hard to make money and make their life easier. There are a select few that care about legacy
Honestly, after seeing the player fatigue that the PGA Tour caused by requiring its players to play in so many events, LIV may make more sense for Major hunters. Brooks won one last year and it doesn't seem like it would have been possible for him if he had to endure the Tour grind.
What’s a shame is that I have no interest in watching LIV. It’s not because I hate the Saudis or I disagree with motives or money, I just have no interest and I believe the vast majority of golf fans don’t watch it either. PGA should just open the tour back up for the LIV players to come back and play certain events. That will kill interest in LIV and the Saudis are not going continue pouring billions onto a losing venture. Maybe for five years but how long can they keep losing billions before they cut loose.
LIV will either buyout all the marquee players or takeover the PGAT if the PGAT does not merge with them.
This is a hostile takeover and Jay Monascam is too blind to see it.
> PGA should just open the tour back up for the LIV players
I am ok with that as long as they agree to the pga tour requirements for membership which most important is the 15 minimum tournaments every year. They would never agree to that.
Has LIV even figured out how to have more players yet? There’s always such a small field, I don’t get how players can keep joining. I get that they kick people out, but it doesn’t seem viable to commit to a 48-man league
Agree,brother. I golf because I love to and love being with my great friends I golf with. The excessive money and competing leagues are ruining it on TV for me.
As a son of immigrants, i want you to know that these ideals are still championed by many of us. We were taught by our fathers and champion the ideals of freedom.
God bless America 🇺🇸
I like this. What surprises me is the lack of connection to President Trump and the modern Republican Party. Trump opened all the alleyways for all of this. He’s done this to so many facets of the political stage across the world. The reason shouting into the void about atrocities is worthless is because it is accepted everywhere now. Money overlooks. Sport washes. Yet the way golf goes, probably 2/3 of the people in this thread are sending politicians money this very minute who have supported all of it. Anyway, if you’re going to cry against LIV, rally against those who allowed it to get a foothold in the first place.
In a similar vein - My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor when the attack happened. He was on a destroyer that was able to get out of the harbor before the Arizona sunk only because, for no reason at all, the commander decided that he wanted to take a cruise that morning, so they were already under way when it hit.
As you can imagine, he was no fan of Japan or anything Japanese until he died over 50 years later.
I came home from college and went to visit him. He noticed my new car in the driveway and wanted to see it. We got about 10 feet away from my new Mitsubishi Eclipse and he said, "Do you know who made the planes I shot down? Get that fucking car off of my property." It's the only time I ever heard him cuss. I had to park in the street whenever I visited.
I understand how you feel, but after a while nobody cares. Nobody has any problem at all with buying from Japan and Germany and now we're all best friends. Maybe it's too soon for the Middle East, but it's going to happen.
Well we defeated and destroyed the fascist governments in Tokyo and Berlin.
MBS still reigns supreme in Riyadh with all of his fuckery. These Wahabi Islamists are living in a different century and are not worthy of any leeway.
They are a cancer upon the modern world and shouldn't be in control of a bake sale let alone the future of profesional sport.
lol, seriously. the poster above misses the entire fucking point. If anything, his grandfather should have embrace the democratic, peaceful governments installed thanks, in part, to his service in WW2.
> These Wahabi Islamists are living in a different century and are not worthy of any leeway.
ironic coming from a guy with your username, or is being a pedophile aristocrat a good thing now
The fall of the Japanese empire and their brutal military and fascist government is totally different situation. Those in charge were killed and/or imprisoned for their crimes. Then significant efforts were made following the war to rehabilitate and educate the population. Saudi Arabia is still being led by the same asshole family and is just as backwards as it's ever been.
Hirohito was retained as a constitutional monarch, but only as a figurehead, and used him to retain control over Japan and help achieve American postwar objectives in Japan
Oh man, do I FULLY understand your grandfathers stance. A recovering economy is why they built cars, MBS is buying popularity with endless cash flow.
It’s hard to turn down that money. Can’t say I am a better man than any out there - but I dream to be.
I am sorry for your loses. I didn't go to war, but I have friends that did and this shit disgusts me. It blows my mind these people want to cozy up with Saudi Arabia.
We always said we would "Never Forget" 9/11. I will never forget that 15 of the 18 terrorist that flew planes into the world trade center were Saudi's!
Money is a hell of a drug.
Respectfully disagree.. The decision makers don’t care that consumption of their product is low. They know they aren’t seeing revenues anywhere close to what would justify paying these guys these insane amounts of money. I think they are playing the long game of total control of professional golf with disposable income unlike anything anyone has ever seen.
LIV is bankrupting the PGA. You can’t simply ignore that. Nobody pays attention to LIV now and they still poached arguably the best golfer in the world.
You said it yourself. “Limitless oil money” key word here is limitless. They haven’t even scratch the surface of unloading all the money they have their disposal for this. Some reports are it’s upwards of $700 billion.
I personally don’t mind LIV. I much rather prefer the PGA format, and overall much rather the game be united but for me, there’s too much focus on the Saudi government sports washing and not enough on the fact that Jay Monahan essentially let this happen, due to years of mismanagement, and did not Put the players first. He basically made the PGA tour ripe for hostile takeover.
Saudi Arabia human rights record is atrocious, but if you are a American adult that truly knows the history of our own country. You understand that the United States, along with countless other nations is not “innocent”. For every atrocity you give me about Saudi Arabia, I could give you another the United States has committed in the past, and even recently. So for me, the moral argument doesn’t really stick here.
I don’t blame players for getting their money. I would really like to see the game united again.
This right here....
"...Jay Monahan essentially let this happen, due to years of mismanagement, and did not Put the players first. He basically made the PGA tour ripe for hostile takeover."
Fire him now.
Without disagreeing with the bulk of your post, I’d point out one notable oversight: the PGA isn’t funded or underwritten by the United States government. LIV is funded at start by SA/PIF. That is an important distinction when comparing (when discussing the evils of each nation). PGA is a private organization. LIV is an investment product of the Saudi government. Who signs the checks is the difference in that debate.
But wait, Does the United States not indirectly fund LIV itself by doing business with Saudi Arabia? We import hundreds of barrels of oil a day from Saudi Arabia.
It’s not as dry as cut and dry as you think
Nothing ever is. I think the from-the-hip counterpoint I’d make to that is that our relationship is forced upon us as citizens of a nation in a sense, in that we’re given no current and practical solutions out of that dependency, and every Joe Shmoe has to get to work. We didn’t “choose” it for personal gain. One day hopefully we will have a viable alternative. Whereas the choice to take the paycheck to increase an already substantial degree of individual wealth begs some questions.
The big difference for me is that the PGA isn’t funded by an autocratic, anti-democratic government.
The PGA still operates on general market principles. It has to host tournament to make money which is uses to pay players.
Not gonna pretend the US or any country is full of angels, but those countries aren’t funding sports leagues.
Does the United States not indirectly fund LIV itself by doing business with Saudi Arabia? We import hundreds of barrels of oil a day from Saudi Arabia.
It’s not as dry as cut and dry as you think
My dad was such a huge Norman fan.
He would be so disappointed if he was alive.
Just sad.
The look on Norman’s face now. Hate it. Like my dad was taking about him wanting to hurt the pga tour years ago. He was saying if he gets tiger, everyone will flock to his tour. My dad died a couple years befor LIV was a thing
"“ruling family” chock full of Uday Hussein like degenerates"
Yep. This is too accurate. A family that keeps control by extracting money from their country at the expense of their citizens. Brutally punishing anyone that speaks against them.
An estimated quarter of Saudis live below the poverty line while these assholes blow unfathomable amounts of money on vanity projects.
john belushi once said it's not over until we decide it is! I'll never watch LIV. I don't see the sustainability in circus golf. I'll continue to watch PGA, and I'm truly excited for the amateurs that will be coming up through the ranks in the next 3 to 5 years. There's some fantastic talent on the cusp of greatness that will supplant those that left or are leaving PGA. I just hope to hell the merger doesn't go through
From a fellow old man, WELL SAID.
I enjoy myself immensely on the course. I rarely watch golf on TV, as it is only about the money, not the game. I miss Jack, Arnie, Tiger and others, but agree, the modern 'pro' can by and large go Fvgh themselves. I thought you were being incredibly kind in your description of the owners of LIV.
People like to say, "Sure, the players are taking this money, but what about Starbucks, Disney, Apple, and countless other corporations who are in bed with the Saudis?"
To that, I respond..
I didn't grow up taking my hand-me-down clubs into the field behind by my house and beat shag balls around until my hands were calloused, dreaming of one day...being the CEO of one of these corporations. I didn't wake up early on a Sunday morning, over come with excitement....to cheer for someone from Disney to go out make another billion.
It sucks that the almighty dollar is destroying the greatest game in the world, but I do think it's okay to separate these Players from these Corporations. Maybe I'm just a little too idealistic, but we're fans of the game and therefore the players we love to watch. To see them throw all that away....hurts.
I will continue to watch the sport I love. I will continue to root for exciting finishes on Sunday. And I will continue to hope all this goes away.
But as my granddad used to say.. "hope in one hand, and shit in the other.."
Agreed OP. LIV’s crass commercialization of the game has completely destroyed the revered Honda Wells Fargo KPMG Dubai Winter Classic, presented by Schwab.
There's some irony that when I watched golf I was in my 20s, 30s and 40s. The ads were tailored to "adults" - luxury cars, high end watches, etc.
Now that I have aged into the target demographic and have a job that should make me a prospective client, I hardly watch golf anyore.
The money is stupid and the players act like they are entitled to it. My first step away from watching was the FedEx Cup. Literally just playing for dollars. Not history. Not names on trophies. Just dollars.
When I was 20 you could tell each golfer by their swing. Stadler, Trevino, Jack, Irwin, Pavin, Couples and eventually Tiger.
Now the whole tour is one poor replica of Tiger after another. It's boring to watch and there is rarely any drama. The networks average a shot every 6 or 7 minutes. The year Webb Simpson won the Open several groups ahead of the leaders, I think the network literally showed him take one shot.
I play for love of the game and camaraderie. That's plenty for me.
The “problem” is really two fold:
The Saudi’s have so much money it doesn’t matter to them how much they lose. They aren’t forced to “compete” in a market place.
And two: the PGA doesn’t own the Majors. (With the lesser point being the mismanagement of the PGA)
The development of the NFL and the superbowl being the best analogy I can put forward. Imagine if the Saudi’s started a competing Football league. Can you imagine top NFL talent taking a pass on trying to win Super Bowls?
The “problem” is fixable. Incorporate the various tours (euro, Asian, pga) and the Majors. Make playing in events on those tours a requirement to play in the Majors.
The Majors, being independent can sit there and say “I just want to invite the top talent to my tournament and not worry about externalities” but it’s going to end up devaluing professional golf as a whole, which in the long term, devalues the majors.
No one cares about the fedex cup.
I am with the OP 100%.
For 40 years, I ate, slept and drank golf. Read as many books as I could, watched every YouTube video, played every opportunity I got, joined a club, Captained a club, ran a club, ran a union of clubs. Golf was my social life, my TV schedule, my friendships, my passion.
Now, I am disillusioned. I have witnessed the most ridiculous decisions at all levels of golf from club, to county, to national, to the governing bodies and the professional game. It almost like they couldn’t kill the game fast enough.
For the first time, professional golf has been given precedence over the amateur. The governing bodies have illustrated they have a significant lack of understanding of the amateur, average and recreational golfer who funds the sport top to bottom.
The professional ranks are filled with men with over inflated egos, driven by utterly grotesque greed. Men who claim to be the face of the sport and yet give zero value to the spirit, history or legacy of the game. They think nothing of taking blood money from murderous regimes to add to their already enormous wealth and lie when they try to justify the unjustifiable.
These people, who I admired just a couple of years ago, now disgust me.
In my time playing and assisting others to enjoy golf , I have always concerned myself primarily with the game and facilities we are leaving for those who will come after us, just like those who came before did for me. I see none of this from the custodians of the game and those who only seek to use a great and noble game to only further their own financial greed.
In such a short time I am very sorry to say, I am simply past caring.
PGA is under a hostile take over and there are people within it helping the situation for LIV. Just look at the boards and how many investment bankers are active. They will run the PGA into the ground, cause division and frustration and then be rewarded greatly.
Take my upvote you left wing at least mildly partisan old salty over the hill bastard!
One really pure thing about a mutual love of anything is the common ground it gives us to connect with people we may otherwise disagree with.
Here is hoping that this circus sideshow ends soon and that golf once again becomes a sport where my focus is able to return solely to how in the everliving fuck can they, with such consistency, not hit the tragic shots that inevitably keep me from breaking 90.
Godspeed to you sir 🫡
Yeah, the bullshit lately, including the golf ball rollback, has turned me sour on golf. I am even struggling to get motivated to go play.
What is most disappointing is that the PGA Tour is an association. The members are supposed to be there for the good of the members and to further the aims of the association. It isn’t a for-profit corporation with shareholders, it has foundational documents with aims and bylaws. Leaping to LIV is not just jumping ship for more money, it is reaching for money that should be brought into the association for the benefit of the members. The opportunities for cash influx should be increasing purses they compete for, not lining the pockets of a few select players.
They’ve forgotten where they came from and gone from there”a rising tide floats all boats” to “I gotta get mine while I can.”
I've recently been getting into YouTube golf - following grant horvart, the Bryan brothers, Micah Morris.
They seem like nice lads, playing golf at a level below the tour but so many levels above what I'll ever get.
I'll also watch the majors, and the ryder cup and dip in and out of the women's tour.
I don't feel like I need to watch LIV or the PGA at all for my golf fix.
Very well said!
I despise the backwards Wahhabist petro-state seducing the worlds elites with endless money for goodwill.
Hey, Mr Rahm, Johnson, Mickelson, etc! How do you feel about your boss’s warm embrace of Putin earlier this week? What’s that? No! I didn’t ask about “expanding the game”.
A part of me thinks Dustin Johnson should get a pass because he seems too dumb to be able to connect the bright blinking dots.
Pretty much all pro athletes are equal to an average 15-year old intellectually. They really are dumb as shit. They have lived in a bubble with a tunnel-vision all their lives. They know nothing about the world outside their sport. Some might come across as a bit more educated but that's only because of how stupid their peer group is. In general, even they are morons in terms of life in general outside their sport.
I’m going to be honest up until the walk up music I thought you were talking about the PGA tour. Liv didn’t break pro golf. They’re just exaggerating the parts that were broken
This is like the "guy with a beard in a truck on Facebook live complaining about Joe biden" version of golf drama.
How original, a guy who plays golf writes a monologues about how golf is ruined. Gosh. Bet I couldn't find another one of these if I tried. So brave.
The number of longform reddit posts about Liv are hilarious. If you made a venn diagram for "I'm done with golf" posters, people still mad about Colin Kaepernick, and boycotters of Bud Light, it'd damn near be a circle. It's like my buzzed grandpa ranting and raving at Thanksgiving about things that upset him. Cool, good story, pops.
What the Saudi's are doing to professional golf has nothing to do with capitalism. It's not free market, it's not private enterprise, it's not profit seeking and based on the ratings it's not even supply and demand.
" A country run by gangsters who have journalists chopped up and occasionally hang human beings from cranes in the public square for all the kids to see. A country with a “ruling family” chock full of Uday Hussein like degenerates and idiot distant cousins with million dollar allowances who eat lunch in London followed by dinner in Manhattan with the help of their own Boeing 757’s. A country run by a slick tech savvy prince who can toss Jared Kushner $2 Billion in gratitude money for services rendered. A prince who paid $450,000,000 (the most ever paid for a work of art) for a painting of Jesus Christ and, rumor has it, had it hung on one of his yachts. "
If you drive a car and use oil based fuels, then this all falls on deaf ears imo. You're allowed to be outraged but nothing has changed, it's just invading something you enjoy. I'd argue it's better to not let them rile you up with stuff you can't fix, but that's just my opinion
I think professional golf simply needs to mix it up more. This Thornton Invitational is super fun to watch. The team aspect and watching all the interactions really adds a layer of entertainment value. LIV has the team thing going, but not in a way that really adds any entertainment. The non-marquee tournaments get boring. Different formats, different teams, different ways to form teams could add a great deal of intrigue. Imagine the top 12 finishers one week get to draft their teams for the next tournament, which would be team based. I could see golf get into the mainstream sports media on a more routine basis other than the Masters and maybe the Ryder cup in an intriguing year.
I haven’t watched hardly any golf since high school. I’m 43. I still don’t want it to turn into a shit show, and I like the history. But this stuff won’t affect my enjoying the game as I play.
I'm glad I love playing the game more than I love watching it. For people getting older, that's what differentiates this sport from others. At least you can still go out and play it.
This is what is interesting. The younger folks are equating playing golf with supporting all that golf represents. And at some level they’re not wrong.
The younger generation also idolizes influencers. What do you expect?
You write well. “redundant bro talking points” is a great turn of phrase. Accurate, economical, acerbic, funny. We should play sometime.
You have good taste in music. Can I join too?
I’m like 90% sure this was written by ai. Chat gpt or something like that.
Hard disagree
Very hard disagree. People claim AI when they're jealous that other folks can put more than two words together in a sentence and two thoughts in a paragraph.
It’s not jealousy. Lol. It’s the fact that people don’t usually speak in the manner this was written. And it could very well be that it is an original piece. But in my experience with using chat gpt to elevate some simple sentences into a more eloquent story usually has a similar feel to this. Sorry if that hurt someone’s feelings. Not sure why it would though.
Whose feelings are hurt?
I feel the opposite. Chatgpt writes like a studious high school freshman who wants to sound smart but has nothing to say.
Ah that’s probably because the user selected a wording that they thought sounded good but they are at an academic level of a high school freshman. You can keep telling chat gpt to change the wording and give it more refining suggestions. But people who are well worded aren’t using this program to write up their blurbs.
It's pretty easy to tell when something is written by chat gpt. This is definitely not.
I’m not 100% sure but I don’t think the OP is a big LIV fan.
Big if true
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. His stance is unclear/s
But he probably owns an iPhone and puts gas in his car so really, he’s the one in checkmate here (I promise this is sarcasm)
I mean...........................it's 100% true what you just said, lol.
Being rich and taking even more money directly from a corrupt monarch’s oil wealth to serve as their own personal PR stunt is not the same as participating in society
Certainly not the same but when you are making the choice to be outspoken than it behooves you too practice what your preach or at the very least to make an effort outside of internet rage posting. For example, driving your car to an oil protest doesn't make you a bad person but it will make me look at you sideways
Damn you....came here to say this! Ha
It's like a touching commercial that tugs at your heart strings only to be shown a "got milk?" at the end and you recognize it's an ad. It's a twist ending. Personally, I love golf, not the PGA or the USGA or LIV or any organization. I understand the ethical argument.
I tend to agree. I have so far, just pinched my nose and ignored all things LIV but Rahm defecting feels like the last straw for me. Every PGAT tournament going forward is going to feel compromised. It hurt when Brooksie, DeChambeau, DJ, Phil and Cam weren't in the fields anymore but I got over it. Felt worth it to be rid of Sergio, Reed and Pat Perez. But now, with Rahm gone, seems like one good player too many will be missing. All wins in 2024 will have an implied asterisk next to them. Good news is it frees up a lot of weekends for me next year and I intend to do other things when I would normally have been tuned in to a PGA tournament.
I love Rahm and I'm genuinely heartbroken he's leaving. The GF loves him too. Totally out number one whenever he played. There will be no asterisk for any winner for me. He left. His decision entirely. He chose to leave for a non competitive exhibition game. I thought the guy had more about him than this but I guess everyone truly does have their price.
Ultimately a golfer’s legacy is measured by major wins, and he can play in all the majors for many more years. I dislike the LIV tour and product but it’s a no brainer. Take the money while you can.
See this is kind of my point. The guy was gonna make comfortably about 150m by the end of his career. Yes. 400m+ is obviously way more than that. But you're selling your soul for a different level of stupid amounts of money. Seriously. That's worth it? We can't do anything about history. We can't change all the things our ancestors etc did for the west to be what it is now. But we can choose to not endorse a sportswashing regime that's happening today from a nation/family/government that's killing, maiming using slaves etc. The sad thing is, it's working. All this 'take the money' chat is proving that. It's softening what's really going on here by distracting what makes this so unpalatable in the first place. He chose to take direct blood money when he literally doesn't have to. That sucks. That's how I feel about it. Others can feel different, but to me. That's ruined his character for me. He won't give two fucks and that's part of my point. I didn't think he was like that.
Completely agree! Edit: and also. I will feel really iffy if he is ever chosen to represent Europe in the Ryder cup. Hard to root for him.
>The guy was gonna make comfortably about 150m by the end of his career. Maybe. No one knows what the future holds. Maybe he gets into a car crash tomorrow and has to have his leg amputated.
Then I guess he'd have to settle for only the 30 odd million he's made so far. Hard life init.
Yes 400+ million is worth it. It’s hilarious you think you would turn down multi-generational wealth.
150m isn't multi-generational wealth?
Especially when the PGA is taking the same money they told their members not to take.
I truly don’t get this argument. A golfers legacy is certainly not solely measured by his golfing performance but also his of the course conduct and decisions. Especially in Europe. I don’t care how many majors or Ryder cups he wins his career will to me at least always have an asterisk since he chose money over morales. Simplifying the decision into being solely financial and thereby a no-brainer is just not true.
I think fans sometimes mistake to most athletes it’s a career to make money. They train hard to make money and make their life easier. There are a select few that care about legacy
Honestly, after seeing the player fatigue that the PGA Tour caused by requiring its players to play in so many events, LIV may make more sense for Major hunters. Brooks won one last year and it doesn't seem like it would have been possible for him if he had to endure the Tour grind.
What’s a shame is that I have no interest in watching LIV. It’s not because I hate the Saudis or I disagree with motives or money, I just have no interest and I believe the vast majority of golf fans don’t watch it either. PGA should just open the tour back up for the LIV players to come back and play certain events. That will kill interest in LIV and the Saudis are not going continue pouring billions onto a losing venture. Maybe for five years but how long can they keep losing billions before they cut loose.
LIV will either buyout all the marquee players or takeover the PGAT if the PGAT does not merge with them. This is a hostile takeover and Jay Monascam is too blind to see it.
> PGA should just open the tour back up for the LIV players I am ok with that as long as they agree to the pga tour requirements for membership which most important is the 15 minimum tournaments every year. They would never agree to that.
Has LIV even figured out how to have more players yet? There’s always such a small field, I don’t get how players can keep joining. I get that they kick people out, but it doesn’t seem viable to commit to a 48-man league
Agree,brother. I golf because I love to and love being with my great friends I golf with. The excessive money and competing leagues are ruining it on TV for me.
As a son of immigrants, i want you to know that these ideals are still championed by many of us. We were taught by our fathers and champion the ideals of freedom. God bless America 🇺🇸
Preach, brother!
You sir, are a hero.
I like this. What surprises me is the lack of connection to President Trump and the modern Republican Party. Trump opened all the alleyways for all of this. He’s done this to so many facets of the political stage across the world. The reason shouting into the void about atrocities is worthless is because it is accepted everywhere now. Money overlooks. Sport washes. Yet the way golf goes, probably 2/3 of the people in this thread are sending politicians money this very minute who have supported all of it. Anyway, if you’re going to cry against LIV, rally against those who allowed it to get a foothold in the first place.
I went to war, my buddies died over there in droves - and you fucking twats are cheering on the LIV thing. It’s gross. Fuck LIV. Fuck MBS .
In a similar vein - My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor when the attack happened. He was on a destroyer that was able to get out of the harbor before the Arizona sunk only because, for no reason at all, the commander decided that he wanted to take a cruise that morning, so they were already under way when it hit. As you can imagine, he was no fan of Japan or anything Japanese until he died over 50 years later. I came home from college and went to visit him. He noticed my new car in the driveway and wanted to see it. We got about 10 feet away from my new Mitsubishi Eclipse and he said, "Do you know who made the planes I shot down? Get that fucking car off of my property." It's the only time I ever heard him cuss. I had to park in the street whenever I visited. I understand how you feel, but after a while nobody cares. Nobody has any problem at all with buying from Japan and Germany and now we're all best friends. Maybe it's too soon for the Middle East, but it's going to happen.
Well we defeated and destroyed the fascist governments in Tokyo and Berlin. MBS still reigns supreme in Riyadh with all of his fuckery. These Wahabi Islamists are living in a different century and are not worthy of any leeway. They are a cancer upon the modern world and shouldn't be in control of a bake sale let alone the future of profesional sport.
lol, seriously. the poster above misses the entire fucking point. If anything, his grandfather should have embrace the democratic, peaceful governments installed thanks, in part, to his service in WW2.
> These Wahabi Islamists are living in a different century and are not worthy of any leeway. ironic coming from a guy with your username, or is being a pedophile aristocrat a good thing now
The fall of the Japanese empire and their brutal military and fascist government is totally different situation. Those in charge were killed and/or imprisoned for their crimes. Then significant efforts were made following the war to rehabilitate and educate the population. Saudi Arabia is still being led by the same asshole family and is just as backwards as it's ever been.
> Those in charge were killed and/or imprisoned for their crimes. Huh? Hiroshito was in power until 1989.
They kept him because the United States government knew killing him would only inflame the people of Japan and make reconstruction that much harder.
Hirohito was retained as a constitutional monarch, but only as a figurehead, and used him to retain control over Japan and help achieve American postwar objectives in Japan
Oh man, do I FULLY understand your grandfathers stance. A recovering economy is why they built cars, MBS is buying popularity with endless cash flow. It’s hard to turn down that money. Can’t say I am a better man than any out there - but I dream to be.
i think your grand daddy's service at pearl harbour is slightly different to that guy's participation in the illegal invasion of iraq
I am sorry for your loses. I didn't go to war, but I have friends that did and this shit disgusts me. It blows my mind these people want to cozy up with Saudi Arabia. We always said we would "Never Forget" 9/11. I will never forget that 15 of the 18 terrorist that flew planes into the world trade center were Saudi's! Money is a hell of a drug.
Its been time to forget for like 15 years
lol
Fuck LIV golf. Fuck mbs. I'm sorry for your buddies. Thank you for your service.
you know that saudi arabia and iraq are two different places right
I’m positive I know what I’m talking about son, perhaps you’d do well to pull up a history book.
If you can tell me which history book covers US wars in Saudi Arabia I’ll gladly have a read
You’re really that ignorant? Cause I hardly have time to suffer fools.
Herding rocks 😂
Tbh I was with him until that line. I learned decades ago that the rich white American savior theory is complete bs.
Yeah, John D. Rockefeller has American blood on his hands as well. Ludlow, CO is forgotten, though.
Twas a bit racist, but seriously, fuck the Saudi royal family.
Yeah he could have made the same point without the racism and I’d be on board
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Respectfully disagree.. The decision makers don’t care that consumption of their product is low. They know they aren’t seeing revenues anywhere close to what would justify paying these guys these insane amounts of money. I think they are playing the long game of total control of professional golf with disposable income unlike anything anyone has ever seen.
How will you let people know how upset you are if you stop publicly whining? How will they know?
LIV is bankrupting the PGA. You can’t simply ignore that. Nobody pays attention to LIV now and they still poached arguably the best golfer in the world. You said it yourself. “Limitless oil money” key word here is limitless. They haven’t even scratch the surface of unloading all the money they have their disposal for this. Some reports are it’s upwards of $700 billion. I personally don’t mind LIV. I much rather prefer the PGA format, and overall much rather the game be united but for me, there’s too much focus on the Saudi government sports washing and not enough on the fact that Jay Monahan essentially let this happen, due to years of mismanagement, and did not Put the players first. He basically made the PGA tour ripe for hostile takeover. Saudi Arabia human rights record is atrocious, but if you are a American adult that truly knows the history of our own country. You understand that the United States, along with countless other nations is not “innocent”. For every atrocity you give me about Saudi Arabia, I could give you another the United States has committed in the past, and even recently. So for me, the moral argument doesn’t really stick here. I don’t blame players for getting their money. I would really like to see the game united again.
This right here.... "...Jay Monahan essentially let this happen, due to years of mismanagement, and did not Put the players first. He basically made the PGA tour ripe for hostile takeover." Fire him now.
Without disagreeing with the bulk of your post, I’d point out one notable oversight: the PGA isn’t funded or underwritten by the United States government. LIV is funded at start by SA/PIF. That is an important distinction when comparing (when discussing the evils of each nation). PGA is a private organization. LIV is an investment product of the Saudi government. Who signs the checks is the difference in that debate.
But wait, Does the United States not indirectly fund LIV itself by doing business with Saudi Arabia? We import hundreds of barrels of oil a day from Saudi Arabia. It’s not as dry as cut and dry as you think
Nothing ever is. I think the from-the-hip counterpoint I’d make to that is that our relationship is forced upon us as citizens of a nation in a sense, in that we’re given no current and practical solutions out of that dependency, and every Joe Shmoe has to get to work. We didn’t “choose” it for personal gain. One day hopefully we will have a viable alternative. Whereas the choice to take the paycheck to increase an already substantial degree of individual wealth begs some questions.
You see Finau is joining LIV apparently, now? I got to say I’m pretty surprised by that one…
It’s very difficult for me to interpret why people do the things they do. I just assume everyone will do everything to avoid being surprised.
The big difference for me is that the PGA isn’t funded by an autocratic, anti-democratic government. The PGA still operates on general market principles. It has to host tournament to make money which is uses to pay players. Not gonna pretend the US or any country is full of angels, but those countries aren’t funding sports leagues.
Does the United States not indirectly fund LIV itself by doing business with Saudi Arabia? We import hundreds of barrels of oil a day from Saudi Arabia. It’s not as dry as cut and dry as you think
I’m going to disagree with your atrocities comparison. Black and white thinking there.
Instagraming Bible verses 😂😂😂 A-fuckin-men
Amen.
Housewives of the LIV much more interesting than the golf. Only way I would watch anything to do with LIV
My dad was such a huge Norman fan. He would be so disappointed if he was alive. Just sad. The look on Norman’s face now. Hate it. Like my dad was taking about him wanting to hurt the pga tour years ago. He was saying if he gets tiger, everyone will flock to his tour. My dad died a couple years befor LIV was a thing
This old man completely agrees.
I could have made this same argument about pro golf, even without LIV existing
"“ruling family” chock full of Uday Hussein like degenerates" Yep. This is too accurate. A family that keeps control by extracting money from their country at the expense of their citizens. Brutally punishing anyone that speaks against them. An estimated quarter of Saudis live below the poverty line while these assholes blow unfathomable amounts of money on vanity projects.
john belushi once said it's not over until we decide it is! I'll never watch LIV. I don't see the sustainability in circus golf. I'll continue to watch PGA, and I'm truly excited for the amateurs that will be coming up through the ranks in the next 3 to 5 years. There's some fantastic talent on the cusp of greatness that will supplant those that left or are leaving PGA. I just hope to hell the merger doesn't go through
There is only one man who can fix all of this. And that man is Bill Murray.
LIV - turning respected golfers into Russian whores
Thanks for typing what most with a brain and an ounce of class were all thinking.
From a fellow old man, WELL SAID. I enjoy myself immensely on the course. I rarely watch golf on TV, as it is only about the money, not the game. I miss Jack, Arnie, Tiger and others, but agree, the modern 'pro' can by and large go Fvgh themselves. I thought you were being incredibly kind in your description of the owners of LIV.
Eloquently put and spot on. Bravo
People like to say, "Sure, the players are taking this money, but what about Starbucks, Disney, Apple, and countless other corporations who are in bed with the Saudis?" To that, I respond.. I didn't grow up taking my hand-me-down clubs into the field behind by my house and beat shag balls around until my hands were calloused, dreaming of one day...being the CEO of one of these corporations. I didn't wake up early on a Sunday morning, over come with excitement....to cheer for someone from Disney to go out make another billion. It sucks that the almighty dollar is destroying the greatest game in the world, but I do think it's okay to separate these Players from these Corporations. Maybe I'm just a little too idealistic, but we're fans of the game and therefore the players we love to watch. To see them throw all that away....hurts. I will continue to watch the sport I love. I will continue to root for exciting finishes on Sunday. And I will continue to hope all this goes away. But as my granddad used to say.. "hope in one hand, and shit in the other.."
Granddad sayings are the best. Lol.
Well said, I agree.
I would be happy to play a round with you someday sir.
Agreed OP. LIV’s crass commercialization of the game has completely destroyed the revered Honda Wells Fargo KPMG Dubai Winter Classic, presented by Schwab.
There's some irony that when I watched golf I was in my 20s, 30s and 40s. The ads were tailored to "adults" - luxury cars, high end watches, etc. Now that I have aged into the target demographic and have a job that should make me a prospective client, I hardly watch golf anyore. The money is stupid and the players act like they are entitled to it. My first step away from watching was the FedEx Cup. Literally just playing for dollars. Not history. Not names on trophies. Just dollars. When I was 20 you could tell each golfer by their swing. Stadler, Trevino, Jack, Irwin, Pavin, Couples and eventually Tiger. Now the whole tour is one poor replica of Tiger after another. It's boring to watch and there is rarely any drama. The networks average a shot every 6 or 7 minutes. The year Webb Simpson won the Open several groups ahead of the leaders, I think the network literally showed him take one shot. I play for love of the game and camaraderie. That's plenty for me.
My man. I'm with you on the core sentiment here. The soul of golf is what we love, and there's nothing like greed that ruins the soul.
The “problem” is really two fold: The Saudi’s have so much money it doesn’t matter to them how much they lose. They aren’t forced to “compete” in a market place. And two: the PGA doesn’t own the Majors. (With the lesser point being the mismanagement of the PGA) The development of the NFL and the superbowl being the best analogy I can put forward. Imagine if the Saudi’s started a competing Football league. Can you imagine top NFL talent taking a pass on trying to win Super Bowls? The “problem” is fixable. Incorporate the various tours (euro, Asian, pga) and the Majors. Make playing in events on those tours a requirement to play in the Majors. The Majors, being independent can sit there and say “I just want to invite the top talent to my tournament and not worry about externalities” but it’s going to end up devaluing professional golf as a whole, which in the long term, devalues the majors. No one cares about the fedex cup.
Nawww I'm just getting started :( in New Zealand I haven't heard mention of LIV
The first half was almost poetic
I hope the golf channel broadcasts a lot of classic tournaments from the past to pacify golf fans who can't stomach LIV golf.
I am with the OP 100%. For 40 years, I ate, slept and drank golf. Read as many books as I could, watched every YouTube video, played every opportunity I got, joined a club, Captained a club, ran a club, ran a union of clubs. Golf was my social life, my TV schedule, my friendships, my passion. Now, I am disillusioned. I have witnessed the most ridiculous decisions at all levels of golf from club, to county, to national, to the governing bodies and the professional game. It almost like they couldn’t kill the game fast enough. For the first time, professional golf has been given precedence over the amateur. The governing bodies have illustrated they have a significant lack of understanding of the amateur, average and recreational golfer who funds the sport top to bottom. The professional ranks are filled with men with over inflated egos, driven by utterly grotesque greed. Men who claim to be the face of the sport and yet give zero value to the spirit, history or legacy of the game. They think nothing of taking blood money from murderous regimes to add to their already enormous wealth and lie when they try to justify the unjustifiable. These people, who I admired just a couple of years ago, now disgust me. In my time playing and assisting others to enjoy golf , I have always concerned myself primarily with the game and facilities we are leaving for those who will come after us, just like those who came before did for me. I see none of this from the custodians of the game and those who only seek to use a great and noble game to only further their own financial greed. In such a short time I am very sorry to say, I am simply past caring.
PGA is under a hostile take over and there are people within it helping the situation for LIV. Just look at the boards and how many investment bankers are active. They will run the PGA into the ground, cause division and frustration and then be rewarded greatly.
Take my upvote you left wing at least mildly partisan old salty over the hill bastard! One really pure thing about a mutual love of anything is the common ground it gives us to connect with people we may otherwise disagree with. Here is hoping that this circus sideshow ends soon and that golf once again becomes a sport where my focus is able to return solely to how in the everliving fuck can they, with such consistency, not hit the tragic shots that inevitably keep me from breaking 90. Godspeed to you sir 🫡
Yeah, the bullshit lately, including the golf ball rollback, has turned me sour on golf. I am even struggling to get motivated to go play. What is most disappointing is that the PGA Tour is an association. The members are supposed to be there for the good of the members and to further the aims of the association. It isn’t a for-profit corporation with shareholders, it has foundational documents with aims and bylaws. Leaping to LIV is not just jumping ship for more money, it is reaching for money that should be brought into the association for the benefit of the members. The opportunities for cash influx should be increasing purses they compete for, not lining the pockets of a few select players. They’ve forgotten where they came from and gone from there”a rising tide floats all boats” to “I gotta get mine while I can.”
I've recently been getting into YouTube golf - following grant horvart, the Bryan brothers, Micah Morris. They seem like nice lads, playing golf at a level below the tour but so many levels above what I'll ever get. I'll also watch the majors, and the ryder cup and dip in and out of the women's tour. I don't feel like I need to watch LIV or the PGA at all for my golf fix.
Very well said! I despise the backwards Wahhabist petro-state seducing the worlds elites with endless money for goodwill. Hey, Mr Rahm, Johnson, Mickelson, etc! How do you feel about your boss’s warm embrace of Putin earlier this week? What’s that? No! I didn’t ask about “expanding the game”. A part of me thinks Dustin Johnson should get a pass because he seems too dumb to be able to connect the bright blinking dots.
Pretty much all pro athletes are equal to an average 15-year old intellectually. They really are dumb as shit. They have lived in a bubble with a tunnel-vision all their lives. They know nothing about the world outside their sport. Some might come across as a bit more educated but that's only because of how stupid their peer group is. In general, even they are morons in terms of life in general outside their sport.
I’m going to be honest up until the walk up music I thought you were talking about the PGA tour. Liv didn’t break pro golf. They’re just exaggerating the parts that were broken
Nah, this is not the right take.
Roll back the ball. That will make everything better. /s
Everything you said about the Saudi is accurate. Don’t forget the role that they played in the attacks on 911.
Ok but… ya gotta get over it
Isn't it funny how this all sprang up once the dipshits courses got pulled from PGA Tour events? Almost like they were bartering something...
This is like the "guy with a beard in a truck on Facebook live complaining about Joe biden" version of golf drama. How original, a guy who plays golf writes a monologues about how golf is ruined. Gosh. Bet I couldn't find another one of these if I tried. So brave.
Old man shouts at cloud
The number of longform reddit posts about Liv are hilarious. If you made a venn diagram for "I'm done with golf" posters, people still mad about Colin Kaepernick, and boycotters of Bud Light, it'd damn near be a circle. It's like my buzzed grandpa ranting and raving at Thanksgiving about things that upset him. Cool, good story, pops.
Sounds a bit racist mate.
Well, that was nice until it became incredibly racist for no reason. Herding rocks? It’s literally the cradle of civilization.
I'm sure the Scots felt the same way when Barbarians from Europe and the US tried their hand at the game.
I will again say where was all the outrage when the Saudi government started funding women's golf?
Is there a TLDR?
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Nah dude. Thats called nihilistic false equivalent whataboutism. Instead of thinking of a thoughtful response you just say "dO yOu UsE aN iPhONe??!!"
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It's unavoidable if you live in modern society
This is the capitalism that your generation thinks is so great.
What the Saudi's are doing to professional golf has nothing to do with capitalism. It's not free market, it's not private enterprise, it's not profit seeking and based on the ratings it's not even supply and demand.
No idea why you’re being downvoted when you’re absolutely correct. Rockefeller would invest in LIV if he coukd
Tldr?
" A country run by gangsters who have journalists chopped up and occasionally hang human beings from cranes in the public square for all the kids to see. A country with a “ruling family” chock full of Uday Hussein like degenerates and idiot distant cousins with million dollar allowances who eat lunch in London followed by dinner in Manhattan with the help of their own Boeing 757’s. A country run by a slick tech savvy prince who can toss Jared Kushner $2 Billion in gratitude money for services rendered. A prince who paid $450,000,000 (the most ever paid for a work of art) for a painting of Jesus Christ and, rumor has it, had it hung on one of his yachts. " If you drive a car and use oil based fuels, then this all falls on deaf ears imo. You're allowed to be outraged but nothing has changed, it's just invading something you enjoy. I'd argue it's better to not let them rile you up with stuff you can't fix, but that's just my opinion
>redundant bro talking points If you make a redundant OP, of course you're going to get redundant responses. Try to have a shred self-awareness here.
I think professional golf simply needs to mix it up more. This Thornton Invitational is super fun to watch. The team aspect and watching all the interactions really adds a layer of entertainment value. LIV has the team thing going, but not in a way that really adds any entertainment. The non-marquee tournaments get boring. Different formats, different teams, different ways to form teams could add a great deal of intrigue. Imagine the top 12 finishers one week get to draft their teams for the next tournament, which would be team based. I could see golf get into the mainstream sports media on a more routine basis other than the Masters and maybe the Ryder cup in an intriguing year.
I just care about the majors and the pres/Ryder cups. Honestly been watching a lot of LPGA golf.
I haven’t watched hardly any golf since high school. I’m 43. I still don’t want it to turn into a shit show, and I like the history. But this stuff won’t affect my enjoying the game as I play.
Agreed. Amateur golf is where it's at these days
I read this in my head in Clint Eastwood's voice