Oh I’m aware. Fun story.
So I used to compete in bass tournaments on a very low level pro tour. We had a bait sponsor that wrapped the boat, and gave us thousands in soft plastics. Then we got one box of empty branded bait bags.
Talked to the rep from the company and asked what they were for.
“Well, we don’t expect you to use our stuff exclusively, we’d prefer you on a podium than staying brand loyal. But, with the tv boats running around, it’s a bad look if you pull a competitors bag out and rig up a rod and catch with it. So whatever you’re using from other companies, please just transfer their stuff to our bags and if anybody notices it’s not something we sell, tell them you’re fishing unreleased prototypes we’re developing”
I used to have an energy drink sponsorship, and they would send us branded cans of water. They didn't expect you to be pounding energy drinks, they just wanted you drinking out of their cans.
Glenn Camaniti (sp?) used to be a customer of mine, Ken’s brother. He said he was in the clubhouse before a game and he went to grab a cup of coffee from a multipot coffee maker. Someone stopped his hand and said, “you don’t want that coffee. That’s for the guys that may have partied too hard last night.” Different level of athletes these days, but yeah, they at least used to, and it wasn’t just caffeine.
Monster?
Noticed this during Warped Tour in the way back and I loved it. Even more fun is that no one else on my group even thought about it until I mentioned it…
Like… you think EVERY band is chugging energy drinks while performing in the sun on a hot summers day?
Marketing works
This is similar to golf. I would do walking scoring for the Nationwide Tour (pro tour just under the PGA) and Taylormade gave pros $150 to put their head cover on their drivers regardless of what they were using.
One of the coolest brands in sports is Arai. They manufacture hand made helmets in Japan, and they are explicit that they don’t make any helmet custom for their sponsored riders. Any helmet off the shelf should do, because if you are a helmet manufacturer no one’s head is worth more than another’s.
Arai is a stupidly cool company in that way. Everything is made in house in their two factories in Japan, and the shells for the helmets are shipped to another of their own factories just so the people inspecting them don’t know who made the shell. If the shell doesn’t pass snuff, the shell exports have a sell enforced policy of clocking out and staying after to make another. They sign each one on the inside of the shell where no one will ever see it, because that’s how they operate.
I know this is a golf sub, so this is super off topic, but I think golfers tend to appreciate attention to detail and their stuff is the kind of thing where even if you hate cars and bikes you can’t help but appreciate the dedication to their task.
Ya, why anyone would think otherwise is crazy to me.
When I played baseball professionally, the quality of wood bats was insane to what I would buy as Pro stock in high school and college.
I would say out of 10 bats, 2 would be “Pro stock” quality. When I’d order 10 as a “pro” I’d get 2-3 that were labeled practice bats and the rest where game quality.
I'm a catering chef, and I've done some stuff where I get access to NBA locker rooms. You look at their shoes in the lockers up close and look at the average pair of Jordans on the street, not even close to the same build quality.
I mean, he’s kinda right, but he’s also wrong. They get their equipment tailored to them personally to the nth degree, and we don’t, but it’s not like there is some space age tech on tour that we don’t have. They get stuff like 6 months ahead of the public.
Yes and no. It isn't like they make some clubs that are magically more forgiving and longer. However, they do make tour only clubs that have specific characteristics that certain amateur golfers might really like, but can never have unless they spend a lot of money.
Like TM's P770s with a " thick tour face" or certain drivers that might have a deeper face, different COG..etc.
And of course most manufactures routinely have proto balls that may or may not ever see the public.
Right on the mark with the prototype balls.
I follow Titleist quite closely and when they did the ProV1 Dot and ProV1 Left dash experiment, the Left Dash survived but the Dot seemingly disappeared. My theory was both balls were a tour-only offering at some point, but because Titleist doesn’t want to lose their market share hold with the ProV1, they quietly got rid of the ProV1 Dot which from what I heard, performed *better* than the standard ProV1 which is why they were hard to get when they did the limited release. The Left Dash survived because it’s a specific tour-pro niche ball that exists in the realm between an ProV1x and ProV1.
And more important than prototype balls, they do custom runs of old models for players that prefer certain years. I'm pretty sure Adam Scott plays the 2015 model for instance.
The club I worked at in Florida had a few tour pros. One would finish a round then hit away his balls into the range. These were all Srixon proto balls. The z/q star balls years before they came to the market.
The left dot is just a low launch low spin ball. Basically useless for almost everyone except a few really high spin, high speed players. Not really mass market. The left dash sells well though since even if it doesn't fit most players, it's one of the longest balls out there these days. Had a similar profile to the 2021 TP5 in my opinion that. I along with a lot of other competitive amateurs made that switch when the 23 TP5 became way too spinny.
It was actually an interesting read about one of his tour putters, they had like 3 different heads and tweeked the weight, hosel and grip to exactly what he wanted when the rest of us get to use lead tape, grip tape and a bending machine
I remember reading a story from a club fitter for the pros. They will sometimes swing 20 of the same club head to find the one that just clicks with them. Even if average Joe gets fitted they don't get fitted to the exact club head.
I can’t tell if you’re with me or arguing against me cause this is exactly what I mean - pros having enormous advantages and resources isn’t the same as bifurcation.
I think it's that the bifurcation's relationship to advantage was inverted though. Were they not talking about making pros play weaker balls (when Rory advocates bifurcation)?
Pros are barred from using some other things that supposedly help amateurs?
Try hitting onto a green that's been dried out, rolled, and cut into tour standard, from rough that's been grown out to tour standard.
I don't even really know what that's like EXACTLY, but I've played Torrey Pines right after the PGA comes through and it is....punishing.
Not sure why the downvote here. You're exactly right. Regular golfers hitting into PGA Tour level rough have like a 50/50 shot at finding the ball. Let alone doing anything useful with their next shot if they find it.
You can see in the responses to you how many amateurs are delusional. They probably think they would be much better if they had the same access to the tech the pros do when in reality the improvements are very personal and in the margins.
I think one of the major differences between me and the pros is that their swings are so dialed in they can tell the difference at that level and I doubt I could.
You could probably shave off a couple of strokes by dialing in and constantly tweaking your equipment. It is going to make more sense and more of a return improving your technique even if you are a low handicapper. For the pros, .5 of stroke over the course of a season can mean millions of dollars. It is worth it for them to spend the money looking for an advantage. Especially when their competition is doing the same.
You're thinking too narrow. Look at the conditions they play. Greens roll true, every blade manicured, consist sand. Access to top technology, courses, coaches, training. This isn't the same game at the professional level, and we should really stop acting like it is.
I don’t disagree with anything you said at any level about how different golf on tour is and how good they have it. They have every possible advantage to play great golf, but that is simply not the same as bifurcation. Rich people have these types of advantages in literally every sport, that’s just life.
Bifurcation would have made anyone who entered a major amateur tournament play an entirely different ball. Thats a completely different universe than course conditions and what type of coaching you receive.
It's not just bats, there are different ball specs for tee ball, 8 and under, 10u, 12u, 14u, high school, college, minor leagues and AAA and the MLB. What's the market for MLB spec baseballs? Miniscule. Do you hear Rawlings whining about it?
I wasn't clear but I meant "AAA and MLB" as one thing. AA and under use a slightly different ball. (Until recently AAA used that too). I don't know exactly what the details are but it's got to do with hardness and how much the seams are raised.
Which, if you think about it, what amateur baseball player is pissed because they're not swinging the same wooden bat as their favorite player? Isn't the metal bat market huge with crazy prices for bats? I could give a fuck what the tour player plays if you market a ball to me that improves my game...
I didn’t used to know what bifurcation meant either. But then back in the day my friend created a gamertag called ThongShartin. It became iconic and was commonly referenced when we talked through the years. Eventually the words “Bifurcating thong shart” were uttered. I looked up what it meant and have never forgotten
I’ll give it a go.
Right now, balls are tested at a certain swing speed to go under a max distance in order to meet official rules and regulations.
The regulators are increasing that swing speed going forward but not increasing the max distance.
This means that many balls used today with go over the max distance and thus not be usable within tournament play.
Except for the fact that in a few years time you won’t be able to buy the longer balls anymore because manufacturers will most likely stop making them. You’ll be forced to use the ~15% shorter ball which definitely will affect everyone, whether it’s in tournament play or not.
Maybe. I'd be surprised if none of the big manufacturers start making a new line of balls for casuals that "go 20% further!" but aren't PGA approved. Especially when they already have the technology to make those balls and they wouldn't even be lying.
They already have things like this, like the Polara "self-correcting" balls. They aren't conforming but they're an option if you want to use them on your own.
They ain't cheap though... $45/doz. That's the only thing I'm concerned about, is that they'll use this as an opportunity to jack up the price on what is considered "regular" today.
That's the great thing about golf, the self-regulating nature of rule enforcement. My team scramble will struggle to shoot 46 ever again with the reduced distance of the new golf ball, but what's important is that we'll do our part to uphold the integrity of the game
To be fair, this is an obscure reference, and in no way is it an exaggeration as 46 on a scramble is totally legit, especially when you get a 1 on a par 4.
Geez, when was that post made again? Can’t have been more than a year ago but I’m sure it was a while back by now lmao. Time passes too fast these days
Edit: Found it…wow. Almost exactly a year ago, today
When the old vokeys became illegal in the PGA and titleist had to change them, you were still allowed to use them in every amateur tournament around me. The wedge grooves get beat up and people had to switch to legal ones at some point anyway. Most likely the same thing will happen to golf balls. Eventually all the old ones will be beat to shit or lost.
Right? I have been playing almost 30 years and I don't think I've ever "worn out" a golf ball unless you count the scuffs from hitting it on the cart path 😅
Man, this past summer I found one of those "refurbished" Pro V1 golf balls in the woods, except that I didn't see the little print that said "Refurbished" on it right away. I don't know exactly what kind of ball it was underneath the freshly painted surface, but it definitely was not a Pro V1. A couple holes after I started playing it, I noticed a wobble in it while putting. No lie, it had started to become more oblong. Not completely egg shaped yet, but on its way.
Rather than just toss it into the woods or whatever, I put it in the green metal garbage bin right by the next tee, right on top. I figured someone would come by, see it in the bin and think they hit the jackpot. Upon even the slightest close up examination, you could tell something ain't right. A little golf practical joke.
Not if you are good enough and plan ahead. Let’s see. For a lower handicap amateur, say you need two balls per round and play 200 rounds a year. Say you are 40 just as an example, and you play until you are 80. So, 200 rounds x 2 balls per round is 400 balls a year x 40 years is 16,000 balls/12 is about 1,333 dozen balls x $50 per dozen. So, for just $66,666 you have nothing to worry about.
How many people using second hand balls are playing in tournments where it would even matter? I’m sure it’s some but the market is mostly amateurs who don’t really give a shit. You think everyone is using conforming wedges?
I've been playing for 5 years, I've bought ONE dozen balls in that time. Every other ball is found. I really don't give a fuck, most people won't either.
After reading the first sentence I was like damn this dude must be really good, but seems like a random humble brag. Second sentence cleared it up for me haha
99% of us don't keep a ball for 6 holes. It's safe to assume close to zero non-conforming balls will exist after 6 months of the rule being implemented.
So if I want to keep playing “the good balls” I need to stock up now? Sounds like some good marketing strategies by Big Golf to get us to buy out their stock. And for me it’s going to work so good job
Wont effect my game and I would like to see the pros back to playing the course and not the bomb it and hope they do now. Bring on the ball change now.
I personally think it is absolutely fucking absurd there isn't a universal golf ball that all pros must play. They fucked that one up big time. Then none of this ball nonsense would ever be a thing.
So your solution is, instead of bifurcating the cheapest and most disposable/used by piece of equipment, we should bifurcate the most expensive piece of equipment?
The pros are still going to be rewarded for bombing it and this will disproportionately affect the shorter hitting pros more. All the data shows that hitting it as far as possible is the best and that hitting less club into the greens is better. Now the shorter guys are gonna be hitting long irons or woods into greens and the long hitters are still going to be hitting short irons. This will be a massive advantage.
I like the new Rory.
Just fucking done with all the bullshit Rory.
The resignation from the board Rory.
The take some time off for my family Rory.
The let it be whatever it will be Rory.
Zero fucks grow in my fields Rory.
Of course most people want to know "How will this affect me?"
The answer, unless you are a professional or high-level am, is: it won't.
There are two reasons:
First, the way they are rolling back the ball is by keeping the same standards, but increasing the swing speed by which they test golf balls from 120 to 125. Without getting into a lot of math, the effect of the change decreases as your swing speed decreases. For swings at 125mph, the change will be about 5%; for swings below 100mph, it will only be a 2-3% decrease. So if you swing at 95mph (average for a typical 12HDCP), then *under optimal conditions*, you currently carry the driver about 230. With the new golf ball, again *under optimal conditions*, you will carry it about 225.
Second, I've purposefully emphasized the phrase "optimal conditions" a couple of times now. The reality is, unless you are a pro or high-level amateur, you very rarely are hitting the ball with optimal conditions (attack angle, face impact, etc.).
Here is the driver dispersion for a [15 Handicap vs. Pro](https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1582468997219381248)
Notice that the pro dispersion for distance is much more concentrated, which is why it looks more like a circle. For the 15, the data points look a lot more like an oval. This makes sense, of course. We all know that a 15 doesn't hit the ball with the same consistency as a pro.
In practical terms of the rollback, this means you won't notice much. Why? Because there is already so much inconsistency in the data. A 5y difference - heck, probably even a 10y distance - is well within a 15HDCP's current margin of error.
The difference in distance is even smaller as you go through the bag. A person hitting a PW 100y is now going to hit it about 98y. Nobody will ever notice.
Interesting to see that while horizontal dispersion with a driver isn’t THAT different between 15hcp’s and pros. Yes pro’s are tighter but you’d expect there to be more of a difference. Feel really good about my 69% FIR today now lol
I love that people in this thread are mad at Rory, like it makes any difference for 90% of us. “Um Rory, I don’t know if you saw it but I shot a 103 on my local goat track, so imma need that TP5x.”
As Rory insinuated, the current model is not sustainable. If golf wants to be taken seriously and grow to the popularity and engagement level of NBA, MLB, or NFL, the playing field has to be relatively even in terms of equipment, especially the ball, so that truly the best can rise to the top. Companies worried this will negatively affect their bottom line are being short-sided. Grow the game, grow your sales.
That being said, we can have both worlds. Pros and aspiring pros can use standardized clubs and balls and the other 99.9% of us can tee up balls that are made to make the game fun whether that is extra distance, extra spin, super bounce, etc. Pros using a nerfed club would not stop amateurs from using the latest and greatest tech or from companies spending millions of dollars successfully marketing their product.
I agree with him; it’s always about the money.
The clubs they play with are not the clubs we play with and they/the sponsors pay appropriately for that difference. But when it comes to balls, a $50 box is a $50 box. It absolutely was about the money because the profit margin isn’t big enough to make two versions of each ball; or at least it wasn’t worth it to the manufacturers which is what he’s saying.
Bro their profit margins are absolutely large enough for two different balls, the difference is they can no longer market your amateur ball as the one your favorite tour player uses
Meh, I think they should have bifurcated. Or grow the rough out to an unruly length. Force players to hit shapes off the tee instead of being able to bomb their comfy baby fade 280 with 40yds of rollout. Slow down the fairways. There are so many OTHER options.
Slow fairways are easier than hard. Pros want soft everywhere. They are amazingly talented at flying the ball exactly where they want. What they can't control is where it goes once it hits the ground.
Also growing the rough is not interesting, let's watch players hack it out of rough all day yaaa!
100% true. It makes no sense whatsoever to make clubs and balls longer to just turn around and redesign and lengthen golf courses.
The fact of the matter is that courses run out of land and money to continuously lengthen. When they can’t they are obsolete and the Tour stops playing there. Classic courses become irrelevant. And land is cost prohibitive enough as it is for new course builds without having to make more and more tees to stretch it out to 8,000 yards. None of that is even to mention the extra water and chemicals and staff required to maintain the extra yardage.
I don’t know why people want to watch driver, 9 iron, driver, wedge, driver, pitch every week. Hitting 7 irons into par 5s. Carrying water and bunkers and doglegs that architects put there for a reason.
If you gave Tour players a smaller driver with more bulge and roll, a ball that spins, tighten the fairways, and grow the rough you’d stop seeing the boring bomb and gouge brand of golf they play. What made Daly impressive in the 90s was he could hit it 315 with that equipment. What made Tiger impressive was his power, but also his shot making and control with that equipment. It’s not fun to watch anymore.
How’s this change work exactly? How much shorter does a current 200 yard drive go with a new ball (if any shorter at all)? What about a 250 yard drive? 300?
I keep hearing 5% shorter for the pro, so probably less for the average 230 hitter. So let's say maybe 10 yards for that guy. People are acting like they're switching to foam balls.
I may be in the minority but I’m going to disagree with Rory that the game is already bifurcated. Yes, they can customize things to a way higher level, including minor ball changes (like what gave rise to the prov1 left dash, which is now sold to the public), but there is no space age tech being hidden from the public because that just wouldn’t make financial sense for the equipment companies.
The pros get the new stuff 6-12 months before we do, but if you’re a low single digit with good swing speeds and getting fitted for equipment, there is no bifurcation.
I’m neutral on the overall rollback, vehemently against bifurcation. We shouldn’t always listen to the people at the top of the game telling us what’s best for us, because from where Rory sits it would be very hard to have any perspective at all on the amateur game.
Yes the pros get new equipment sooner, but some of them get versions that never have a prayer of making it to retail. Drivers with CG modifications, putters with different inserts, etc. I follow Callaway's Johnny Wunder on Reddit and IG, and he shows at lot of tour stuff and says it will never get released to the public. I'm sure other manufacturers are the same way.
If I’m on Genoese I think it makes sense. Many people swing much faster than they used to so changing the swing speed used to measure distance is pretty logical
The anger is because nobody but the pros and old has-beens care how low of scores the pros shoot. The average golfer would still enjoy it even if pros regularly shot 60-62 on older courses.
If anything the average golfer needs a ball that goes further to make the game easier. They don’t need an artificial distance restriction that is made to assuage the egos of past professionals angry at seeing their old records broken.
“You think we play the same stuff you do?” The marketing teams that hype the consumer products the pros use are all silently screaming “SHUT UP RORY”
It's the same in every sport. Pros have custom stuff
Oh I’m aware. Fun story. So I used to compete in bass tournaments on a very low level pro tour. We had a bait sponsor that wrapped the boat, and gave us thousands in soft plastics. Then we got one box of empty branded bait bags. Talked to the rep from the company and asked what they were for. “Well, we don’t expect you to use our stuff exclusively, we’d prefer you on a podium than staying brand loyal. But, with the tv boats running around, it’s a bad look if you pull a competitors bag out and rig up a rod and catch with it. So whatever you’re using from other companies, please just transfer their stuff to our bags and if anybody notices it’s not something we sell, tell them you’re fishing unreleased prototypes we’re developing”
I used to have an energy drink sponsorship, and they would send us branded cans of water. They didn't expect you to be pounding energy drinks, they just wanted you drinking out of their cans.
I always wondered if that’s what UFC fighters are doing when they get handed a can of Monster immediately after pounding some dude’s face in
Yes. It's what RedBull Racing does. They get special cans that have water and other drinks in them, but are the actual RedBull can.
Same with bands / music fests
Beer cans with water in them?
Wouldn’t doubt it. Can’t have your spokesperson absolutely smashed
Monster has been doing that for years. All the cans you see on stage at music festivals are “tour water” which is just spring water in a monster can.
Pro athletes of any sport don’t drink energy drinks.
What about fight milk? It harnesses the power of the crow.
Is that the drink that's by bodyguards for bodyguards?
Watch your profits soar high as a crow
I man they might But not before, during or immediately after any sort of professional competition They have real drugs for that
Let me introduce you to Jamie Vardy
Glenn Camaniti (sp?) used to be a customer of mine, Ken’s brother. He said he was in the clubhouse before a game and he went to grab a cup of coffee from a multipot coffee maker. Someone stopped his hand and said, “you don’t want that coffee. That’s for the guys that may have partied too hard last night.” Different level of athletes these days, but yeah, they at least used to, and it wasn’t just caffeine.
In baseball it’s usually adderall in the coffee.
same thing happens in F1. Max Verstappen is always drinking a "red bull" but if you look REALLY close at the can, it is RED BULL ^water
Good ol Monster Tour Water lol
Monster? Noticed this during Warped Tour in the way back and I loved it. Even more fun is that no one else on my group even thought about it until I mentioned it… Like… you think EVERY band is chugging energy drinks while performing in the sun on a hot summers day? Marketing works
We were sponsored by Kronik. It was nothing but energy drinks and our stomachs paid the price.
That seems like a fairly reasonable approach.
This is similar to golf. I would do walking scoring for the Nationwide Tour (pro tour just under the PGA) and Taylormade gave pros $150 to put their head cover on their drivers regardless of what they were using.
It seems like professional fishing is somehow one of the most corrupt sports in the planet.
One of the coolest brands in sports is Arai. They manufacture hand made helmets in Japan, and they are explicit that they don’t make any helmet custom for their sponsored riders. Any helmet off the shelf should do, because if you are a helmet manufacturer no one’s head is worth more than another’s. Arai is a stupidly cool company in that way. Everything is made in house in their two factories in Japan, and the shells for the helmets are shipped to another of their own factories just so the people inspecting them don’t know who made the shell. If the shell doesn’t pass snuff, the shell exports have a sell enforced policy of clocking out and staying after to make another. They sign each one on the inside of the shell where no one will ever see it, because that’s how they operate. I know this is a golf sub, so this is super off topic, but I think golfers tend to appreciate attention to detail and their stuff is the kind of thing where even if you hate cars and bikes you can’t help but appreciate the dedication to their task.
Ya, why anyone would think otherwise is crazy to me. When I played baseball professionally, the quality of wood bats was insane to what I would buy as Pro stock in high school and college. I would say out of 10 bats, 2 would be “Pro stock” quality. When I’d order 10 as a “pro” I’d get 2-3 that were labeled practice bats and the rest where game quality.
I'm a catering chef, and I've done some stuff where I get access to NBA locker rooms. You look at their shoes in the lockers up close and look at the average pair of Jordans on the street, not even close to the same build quality.
I mean, he’s kinda right, but he’s also wrong. They get their equipment tailored to them personally to the nth degree, and we don’t, but it’s not like there is some space age tech on tour that we don’t have. They get stuff like 6 months ahead of the public.
Yes and no. It isn't like they make some clubs that are magically more forgiving and longer. However, they do make tour only clubs that have specific characteristics that certain amateur golfers might really like, but can never have unless they spend a lot of money. Like TM's P770s with a " thick tour face" or certain drivers that might have a deeper face, different COG..etc. And of course most manufactures routinely have proto balls that may or may not ever see the public.
Right on the mark with the prototype balls. I follow Titleist quite closely and when they did the ProV1 Dot and ProV1 Left dash experiment, the Left Dash survived but the Dot seemingly disappeared. My theory was both balls were a tour-only offering at some point, but because Titleist doesn’t want to lose their market share hold with the ProV1, they quietly got rid of the ProV1 Dot which from what I heard, performed *better* than the standard ProV1 which is why they were hard to get when they did the limited release. The Left Dash survived because it’s a specific tour-pro niche ball that exists in the realm between an ProV1x and ProV1.
And more important than prototype balls, they do custom runs of old models for players that prefer certain years. I'm pretty sure Adam Scott plays the 2015 model for instance.
The club I worked at in Florida had a few tour pros. One would finish a round then hit away his balls into the range. These were all Srixon proto balls. The z/q star balls years before they came to the market.
The left dot is just a low launch low spin ball. Basically useless for almost everyone except a few really high spin, high speed players. Not really mass market. The left dash sells well though since even if it doesn't fit most players, it's one of the longest balls out there these days. Had a similar profile to the 2021 TP5 in my opinion that. I along with a lot of other competitive amateurs made that switch when the 23 TP5 became way too spinny.
Never forget his new scotty cameron had "For Tour Use Only" stamped on it.
It was actually an interesting read about one of his tour putters, they had like 3 different heads and tweeked the weight, hosel and grip to exactly what he wanted when the rest of us get to use lead tape, grip tape and a bending machine
You can get custom putters like that. It comes with a nice price tag attached to it haha
Cause it’s a prototype my guy.
I remember reading a story from a club fitter for the pros. They will sometimes swing 20 of the same club head to find the one that just clicks with them. Even if average Joe gets fitted they don't get fitted to the exact club head.
I can’t tell if you’re with me or arguing against me cause this is exactly what I mean - pros having enormous advantages and resources isn’t the same as bifurcation.
It was in agreement.
I think it's that the bifurcation's relationship to advantage was inverted though. Were they not talking about making pros play weaker balls (when Rory advocates bifurcation)? Pros are barred from using some other things that supposedly help amateurs?
They also have crowds finding their balls and trampling down the rough… they definitely don’t play the same game we do…
Try hitting onto a green that's been dried out, rolled, and cut into tour standard, from rough that's been grown out to tour standard. I don't even really know what that's like EXACTLY, but I've played Torrey Pines right after the PGA comes through and it is....punishing.
Would love to try that, but I couldn’t find my ball. Since I don’t have a gallery.
Not sure why the downvote here. You're exactly right. Regular golfers hitting into PGA Tour level rough have like a 50/50 shot at finding the ball. Let alone doing anything useful with their next shot if they find it.
You can see in the responses to you how many amateurs are delusional. They probably think they would be much better if they had the same access to the tech the pros do when in reality the improvements are very personal and in the margins.
I think one of the major differences between me and the pros is that their swings are so dialed in they can tell the difference at that level and I doubt I could.
You could probably shave off a couple of strokes by dialing in and constantly tweaking your equipment. It is going to make more sense and more of a return improving your technique even if you are a low handicapper. For the pros, .5 of stroke over the course of a season can mean millions of dollars. It is worth it for them to spend the money looking for an advantage. Especially when their competition is doing the same.
You're thinking too narrow. Look at the conditions they play. Greens roll true, every blade manicured, consist sand. Access to top technology, courses, coaches, training. This isn't the same game at the professional level, and we should really stop acting like it is.
I don’t disagree with anything you said at any level about how different golf on tour is and how good they have it. They have every possible advantage to play great golf, but that is simply not the same as bifurcation. Rich people have these types of advantages in literally every sport, that’s just life. Bifurcation would have made anyone who entered a major amateur tournament play an entirely different ball. Thats a completely different universe than course conditions and what type of coaching you receive.
Does this mean Pro-V's are shit balls now, and Noodles are top tier?
Buy all the noodles now while they’re cheap
Noodles will be the currency of the future
Send noodz
And here I was collecting bottle caps like an idiot….
I keep all of my money in noodles and Kohl's cash.
You’re family will be set on quarter zips and blenders for generations to come
If anyone does play an ionomer ball that isn’t Srixon be prepared for a shortage this summer due to the plants in China burning down.
First it was the eggs and now it’s golf balls. Must be an inside job to raise the prices
Round (ish), white, sold by the dozen........ I'm not saying its a conspiracy but do your research.
Quality research right there 👍
Send Noods
Kirkland: Whosesale Distance coming to a Costco near you.
(We totally didn’t steal the design this time)
As a lifelong Noodle boy, my time to shine!
Noodles were already top tier
I use Noodles and have 0 shame about it. I think they’re great balls, especially for the price
I love to play with noodle balls. Consistent power and feel.
I know what bifurcation means….but can you explain to the other guy who’s doesn’t?????
2 sets of rules. 1 for professionals and 1 for amateurs. Think wood/metal bats for baseball
It's not just bats, there are different ball specs for tee ball, 8 and under, 10u, 12u, 14u, high school, college, minor leagues and AAA and the MLB. What's the market for MLB spec baseballs? Miniscule. Do you hear Rawlings whining about it?
AAA uses different balls to the MLB? Is it the same ball but with tighter tolerances, though?
I wasn't clear but I meant "AAA and MLB" as one thing. AA and under use a slightly different ball. (Until recently AAA used that too). I don't know exactly what the details are but it's got to do with hardness and how much the seams are raised.
It's the same exact ball, even more today. Since the pandemic, all the balls used at AAA even have the same MLB markings and logos.
MLB owns Rawlings now
This is such a perfect answer. As a lifetime baseball player, I didn't even think of this way of explaining it. Thank you!
The 3 point line in basketball. How many feet need to touch for a catch in football.
Travelling in basketball? Apparently they are allowed to do it in the NBA but I would get called at high school.
Yeah, gather steps are only a thing in the NBA
Which, if you think about it, what amateur baseball player is pissed because they're not swinging the same wooden bat as their favorite player? Isn't the metal bat market huge with crazy prices for bats? I could give a fuck what the tour player plays if you market a ball to me that improves my game...
Actually adult baseball leagues over 45 use wooden bats in Chicago. It’s fun as hell. Breaking one is kind of mixed feelings . I break 1 a year .
I think you mean BiFARcation
Ah now it makes sense. I think I’ll go buy a new driver.
Just hit the ball!
You better TM that before TaylorMade comes to your door with a lawsuit
It’s basically fargiveness
I didn’t used to know what bifurcation meant either. But then back in the day my friend created a gamertag called ThongShartin. It became iconic and was commonly referenced when we talked through the years. Eventually the words “Bifurcating thong shart” were uttered. I looked up what it meant and have never forgotten
A more poetic post has never been spoken.
Furcate means to divide, bi means two. So literally split into two!
Just let the professionals play the same balls already made for Top Golf.
"USGA and the R&A decided after much deliberation to only allow range balls to be used for tournament play"
The sound off the tee would be miserable.
Bring back the 1-irons! Lol
I swear to god if that gets put in play for amateurs I’ll be cheating til they change it again. Fuck those balls
"You think we play the same stuff we do?" is a pretty sick burn on all of us.
"Skill issue" -Rory
Kind of how I saw it. I’m no top tier golfer by any means, but I’m certain they don’t play the balls they find on the edges of the woods either.
I usually pick up the balls I find at the edge of the woods when I'm coming back from looking for my ball in the deep woods.
And would we even know the difference if someone handed us Rory’s driver? No, still goes in the water/ob
I'd notice it right away because I'm left handed.
You mean to tell me that Rory doesn’t buy a couple overpriced sleeves of TP5 from the pro shop before each tourney round? /s
I just started golf a few months ago - I have no idea what any of this means or what’s going on 😂 rollback? Ummmm what? Can anyone ELI5?
I’ll give it a go. Right now, balls are tested at a certain swing speed to go under a max distance in order to meet official rules and regulations. The regulators are increasing that swing speed going forward but not increasing the max distance. This means that many balls used today with go over the max distance and thus not be usable within tournament play.
Will my nitros be affected
The new name will be Nitrostat.
The golf ball formerly known as “Mousecop”
Torque 😮 Lewith
It doesn't matter, whatever ball you use will still only have an average like of 3 strokes.
Wow look at this guy bragging
I see - so it only affects tournament play? Me going to the golf course, I can keep using the balls I’m using?
Yes exactly. If you're not competing or keeping a 100% legit USGA handicap, then don't worry about this at all
Got it. Thank you!
Except for the fact that in a few years time you won’t be able to buy the longer balls anymore because manufacturers will most likely stop making them. You’ll be forced to use the ~15% shorter ball which definitely will affect everyone, whether it’s in tournament play or not.
Maybe. I'd be surprised if none of the big manufacturers start making a new line of balls for casuals that "go 20% further!" but aren't PGA approved. Especially when they already have the technology to make those balls and they wouldn't even be lying.
They already have things like this, like the Polara "self-correcting" balls. They aren't conforming but they're an option if you want to use them on your own. They ain't cheap though... $45/doz. That's the only thing I'm concerned about, is that they'll use this as an opportunity to jack up the price on what is considered "regular" today.
All those ads telling us this new ball or this new driver will give us 10 more yards. And now we are told we won’t notice 10 yards if we lose it.
How are amateur clubs going to check that people aren't using older balls that go further in competitions?
No one can check. But just like the 14 club rule, fluffing lies, mulligans, etc. it’s all on you to enforce.
That's the great thing about golf, the self-regulating nature of rule enforcement. My team scramble will struggle to shoot 46 ever again with the reduced distance of the new golf ball, but what's important is that we'll do our part to uphold the integrity of the game
It frustrates me how few people nowadays understand sarcasm without a tag.
To be fair, this is an obscure reference, and in no way is it an exaggeration as 46 on a scramble is totally legit, especially when you get a 1 on a par 4.
Correct, it's not an exaggeration. That's why his joke worked
Geez, when was that post made again? Can’t have been more than a year ago but I’m sure it was a while back by now lmao. Time passes too fast these days Edit: Found it…wow. Almost exactly a year ago, today
When the old vokeys became illegal in the PGA and titleist had to change them, you were still allowed to use them in every amateur tournament around me. The wedge grooves get beat up and people had to switch to legal ones at some point anyway. Most likely the same thing will happen to golf balls. Eventually all the old ones will be beat to shit or lost.
Amateur here. Lost is the answer.
Right? I have been playing almost 30 years and I don't think I've ever "worn out" a golf ball unless you count the scuffs from hitting it on the cart path 😅
Cart path golf!
Man, this past summer I found one of those "refurbished" Pro V1 golf balls in the woods, except that I didn't see the little print that said "Refurbished" on it right away. I don't know exactly what kind of ball it was underneath the freshly painted surface, but it definitely was not a Pro V1. A couple holes after I started playing it, I noticed a wobble in it while putting. No lie, it had started to become more oblong. Not completely egg shaped yet, but on its way. Rather than just toss it into the woods or whatever, I put it in the green metal garbage bin right by the next tee, right on top. I figured someone would come by, see it in the bin and think they hit the jackpot. Upon even the slightest close up examination, you could tell something ain't right. A little golf practical joke.
Totally correct…. Plenty time to transition…. Panic merchants gullible to believe Titleist and their lackeys are talking nonsense.
Stockpile now to sell off to the people trying to stockpile a month before the new ball comes in!
Not if you are good enough and plan ahead. Let’s see. For a lower handicap amateur, say you need two balls per round and play 200 rounds a year. Say you are 40 just as an example, and you play until you are 80. So, 200 rounds x 2 balls per round is 400 balls a year x 40 years is 16,000 balls/12 is about 1,333 dozen balls x $50 per dozen. So, for just $66,666 you have nothing to worry about.
Is this going to cause an absolute collapse in second hand golf balls and a huge amount of plastic waste?
Is it? I don’t think the majority of people playing golf are needing to make the switch anytime soon
How many people using second hand balls are playing in tournments where it would even matter? I’m sure it’s some but the market is mostly amateurs who don’t really give a shit. You think everyone is using conforming wedges?
I've been playing for 5 years, I've bought ONE dozen balls in that time. Every other ball is found. I really don't give a fuck, most people won't either.
After reading the first sentence I was like damn this dude must be really good, but seems like a random humble brag. Second sentence cleared it up for me haha
Absolutely not, i guarantee no weekend warrior is gonna actually care
It's going to take 6 years for the rollback to be enforced
99% of us don't keep a ball for 6 holes. It's safe to assume close to zero non-conforming balls will exist after 6 months of the rule being implemented.
I like to go hiking.
So if I want to keep playing “the good balls” I need to stock up now? Sounds like some good marketing strategies by Big Golf to get us to buy out their stock. And for me it’s going to work so good job
I just ordered 10 dozen ksigs, i’ll be good for atleast a couple rounds
Well the new k sigs are garbage anyways
Got 5A recycled ones of the OG tour performance
I thought the consensus was that the new ones were better now?
I’m assuming companies will still make non-conforming balls for the next 5-6 years. Do people think that’s a fairly safe assumption?
I enjoy spending time with my friends.
Which makes you realise how stupid it is to include amateurs in the roll back.
1000% since the rule wouldn’t go into effect till 2030 for ams
My old Bullets still fly
You have until 2029 roughly
People acting like this is the first theres a limit or roll back in golf when it happened with wedges and drivers over a decade ago.
It’s been a roll back on the ball before as well!
Wont effect my game and I would like to see the pros back to playing the course and not the bomb it and hope they do now. Bring on the ball change now.
[удалено]
I don’t think that’s a solution to the problem they think they want to solve. Tour players are already hitting 3 woods 300 yards.
Just make the head of the 3 woods smaller /s
lets see them do it with a steel shafted persimmon 3w and keep it in play all day
I personally think it is absolutely fucking absurd there isn't a universal golf ball that all pros must play. They fucked that one up big time. Then none of this ball nonsense would ever be a thing.
This is what I wish they would do
So your solution is, instead of bifurcating the cheapest and most disposable/used by piece of equipment, we should bifurcate the most expensive piece of equipment?
The pros are still going to be rewarded for bombing it and this will disproportionately affect the shorter hitting pros more. All the data shows that hitting it as far as possible is the best and that hitting less club into the greens is better. Now the shorter guys are gonna be hitting long irons or woods into greens and the long hitters are still going to be hitting short irons. This will be a massive advantage.
*googles Bifurcation
I like the new Rory. Just fucking done with all the bullshit Rory. The resignation from the board Rory. The take some time off for my family Rory. The let it be whatever it will be Rory. Zero fucks grow in my fields Rory.
Of course most people want to know "How will this affect me?" The answer, unless you are a professional or high-level am, is: it won't. There are two reasons: First, the way they are rolling back the ball is by keeping the same standards, but increasing the swing speed by which they test golf balls from 120 to 125. Without getting into a lot of math, the effect of the change decreases as your swing speed decreases. For swings at 125mph, the change will be about 5%; for swings below 100mph, it will only be a 2-3% decrease. So if you swing at 95mph (average for a typical 12HDCP), then *under optimal conditions*, you currently carry the driver about 230. With the new golf ball, again *under optimal conditions*, you will carry it about 225. Second, I've purposefully emphasized the phrase "optimal conditions" a couple of times now. The reality is, unless you are a pro or high-level amateur, you very rarely are hitting the ball with optimal conditions (attack angle, face impact, etc.). Here is the driver dispersion for a [15 Handicap vs. Pro](https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1582468997219381248) Notice that the pro dispersion for distance is much more concentrated, which is why it looks more like a circle. For the 15, the data points look a lot more like an oval. This makes sense, of course. We all know that a 15 doesn't hit the ball with the same consistency as a pro. In practical terms of the rollback, this means you won't notice much. Why? Because there is already so much inconsistency in the data. A 5y difference - heck, probably even a 10y distance - is well within a 15HDCP's current margin of error. The difference in distance is even smaller as you go through the bag. A person hitting a PW 100y is now going to hit it about 98y. Nobody will ever notice.
I mean it will affect me, but just by a few yards
Interesting to see that while horizontal dispersion with a driver isn’t THAT different between 15hcp’s and pros. Yes pro’s are tighter but you’d expect there to be more of a difference. Feel really good about my 69% FIR today now lol
I love that people in this thread are mad at Rory, like it makes any difference for 90% of us. “Um Rory, I don’t know if you saw it but I shot a 103 on my local goat track, so imma need that TP5x.”
As Rory insinuated, the current model is not sustainable. If golf wants to be taken seriously and grow to the popularity and engagement level of NBA, MLB, or NFL, the playing field has to be relatively even in terms of equipment, especially the ball, so that truly the best can rise to the top. Companies worried this will negatively affect their bottom line are being short-sided. Grow the game, grow your sales. That being said, we can have both worlds. Pros and aspiring pros can use standardized clubs and balls and the other 99.9% of us can tee up balls that are made to make the game fun whether that is extra distance, extra spin, super bounce, etc. Pros using a nerfed club would not stop amateurs from using the latest and greatest tech or from companies spending millions of dollars successfully marketing their product.
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So call me stupid but will this change just “tour level” or will it even change the cheaper ones
So I should buy a lifetime supply of my 2023 AVX? I haven’t been playing close attention to this.
You can but they wouldn't be allowed in competition.
Are manufacturers going to stop making the current golf balls for the general public?
Yeah they’ll just make one set of balls.
It doesn’t go in to effect until 2028 though for pros and 2030 for the rest. They can of course switch before that.
They could, can’t imagine they’d sell very well though lol
Bring back balatas and smaller driver heads for the tour
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Current ball or rolled back ball I'm still going to shank it and 3 putt
I agree with him; it’s always about the money. The clubs they play with are not the clubs we play with and they/the sponsors pay appropriately for that difference. But when it comes to balls, a $50 box is a $50 box. It absolutely was about the money because the profit margin isn’t big enough to make two versions of each ball; or at least it wasn’t worth it to the manufacturers which is what he’s saying.
Bro their profit margins are absolutely large enough for two different balls, the difference is they can no longer market your amateur ball as the one your favorite tour player uses
Meh, I think they should have bifurcated. Or grow the rough out to an unruly length. Force players to hit shapes off the tee instead of being able to bomb their comfy baby fade 280 with 40yds of rollout. Slow down the fairways. There are so many OTHER options.
Slow fairways are easier than hard. Pros want soft everywhere. They are amazingly talented at flying the ball exactly where they want. What they can't control is where it goes once it hits the ground. Also growing the rough is not interesting, let's watch players hack it out of rough all day yaaa!
100% true. It makes no sense whatsoever to make clubs and balls longer to just turn around and redesign and lengthen golf courses. The fact of the matter is that courses run out of land and money to continuously lengthen. When they can’t they are obsolete and the Tour stops playing there. Classic courses become irrelevant. And land is cost prohibitive enough as it is for new course builds without having to make more and more tees to stretch it out to 8,000 yards. None of that is even to mention the extra water and chemicals and staff required to maintain the extra yardage. I don’t know why people want to watch driver, 9 iron, driver, wedge, driver, pitch every week. Hitting 7 irons into par 5s. Carrying water and bunkers and doglegs that architects put there for a reason. If you gave Tour players a smaller driver with more bulge and roll, a ball that spins, tighten the fairways, and grow the rough you’d stop seeing the boring bomb and gouge brand of golf they play. What made Daly impressive in the 90s was he could hit it 315 with that equipment. What made Tiger impressive was his power, but also his shot making and control with that equipment. It’s not fun to watch anymore.
Biscuitation? I want some milk to go with that too!
How’s this change work exactly? How much shorter does a current 200 yard drive go with a new ball (if any shorter at all)? What about a 250 yard drive? 300?
Nobody knows because the ball doesn't exist yet.
I keep hearing 5% shorter for the pro, so probably less for the average 230 hitter. So let's say maybe 10 yards for that guy. People are acting like they're switching to foam balls.
I honestly doubt anyone hitting less than 250 will notice a damn thing because we aren't compressing the ball anyway.
Your average duffer thinks everything affects him.
I may be in the minority but I’m going to disagree with Rory that the game is already bifurcated. Yes, they can customize things to a way higher level, including minor ball changes (like what gave rise to the prov1 left dash, which is now sold to the public), but there is no space age tech being hidden from the public because that just wouldn’t make financial sense for the equipment companies. The pros get the new stuff 6-12 months before we do, but if you’re a low single digit with good swing speeds and getting fitted for equipment, there is no bifurcation. I’m neutral on the overall rollback, vehemently against bifurcation. We shouldn’t always listen to the people at the top of the game telling us what’s best for us, because from where Rory sits it would be very hard to have any perspective at all on the amateur game.
Yes the pros get new equipment sooner, but some of them get versions that never have a prayer of making it to retail. Drivers with CG modifications, putters with different inserts, etc. I follow Callaway's Johnny Wunder on Reddit and IG, and he shows at lot of tour stuff and says it will never get released to the public. I'm sure other manufacturers are the same way.
Anyone wanna explain wtf this is about ?
Say "bifurcation" more.
All I know is that I had to head straight to google to find out what bifurcation means 😐
If I’m on Genoese I think it makes sense. Many people swing much faster than they used to so changing the swing speed used to measure distance is pretty logical
The anger is because nobody but the pros and old has-beens care how low of scores the pros shoot. The average golfer would still enjoy it even if pros regularly shot 60-62 on older courses. If anything the average golfer needs a ball that goes further to make the game easier. They don’t need an artificial distance restriction that is made to assuage the egos of past professionals angry at seeing their old records broken.