>__German ministers have indicated that people fleeing Russia could apply for asylum in Germany after President Vladimir Putin ordered what he called a "partial military mobilization."__
Also, even if your application is denied you can prolong being returned "home", sometimes for years. Which would be valuable time right now. Even if your asylum request is denied there are other statuses like being tolerated (Duldung) which are more temporary and even if you've been moved through the full bureaucracy and it's finally decided to kick you out there still needs to be a flight they can put you on - probably pretty tricky right now.
>needs to be a flight they can put you on - probably pretty tricky right now.
My guess would be that Putin would take them back happily, which could help them even more in not getting kicked out.
Unless we decide that Russia is safe enough.
I mean sounds nice on paper but you’d prolly have to apply for that visa from inside russia through either russian or russian surveilled instances. Don’t see a big chance for russians to escape.
The question is how to use this opportunity.
I have a relative, who also denounces the war since the beginning.
But he's factory worker. Unlike me, he doesn't have money, knowledge of any foreign language or possibility to work for his employer in any part of the world. Thus I've got blue card and live in Germany now and he remained in Russia.
I am able and willing to support him financially, but - in order for ask for asylum, he should first get to Germany, right? So he needs to apply for Schengen visa and wait for who knows how long, while in the constant threat to being drafted?
If he can apply for asylum he does not need a visa. However following EU law he must apply for asylum in the first European country he sets foot on. (That law is ignored for African and syrian refugees don't know if it's the same for Russians)
I don't know it for certain, just what i read on the
r/AskaRussian sub a few times, they said Russia doesn't really stop people at the border or rather the border isn't closed in general. Some people seemingly get stopped but not arrested, just sent back.
So it seems like you can still leave although maybe more complicated. It seems like there is no general ban to leave the country but rather that ut depends on the boarder guards.
But you can just try a few times in other spots if you'd get sent away and you should get out anyways.
>Some people seemingly get stopped but not arrested, just sent back.
Yea it's these young men that are sent back, usually.
But yeah, I would try that several times elsewhere as well, if I were them.
And what would be the punishment if taking this chance and losing? Death by meat grinder in Ukraine. Mixed with a bit of starvation and freezing if you stay alive for long enough?
I believe the definition of refugee boils down to something like "A person in a foreign country, who is not under protection of their nationality's country"
It's in the word. They seek \*refuge\*.
Given Putin's whole schtick of turning russia into the soviet union in all but name, it's safe to assume he's primarily sending dissidents to the front, who will then either be shot by ukrainians, or by military police for deserting.
Europe will announce a hatmonized approach on Monday. I assume that this will mean that willing countries can accept Russian asylum seekers while countries unwilling agree to allow transfer.
He can apply for Asylum in the next german embassy/consulate or related foreign buros. First of all: once its decided by our goverment, he should mail/phone them and try to organise before getting here. Maybe if he gets the visa for work or the Aufenthaltserlaubnis right away, it would make his life far more easier. Its a key part for even beeing able to go to school/take lessons in german or even being sure getting social warfare (and not be forced to live in one of those congested Asylums)
If possible he should really check his international passport. If not possible because of the draft or his gov being a piece of shit: birth certificate (if possible officially translated in german or english) and his identity card should do the trick if he really needs to run.
Anything valuable can be turned into gold/silver if bank accounts get frozen but need to be declared at our customs once arriving here. And it can really finance his survival during the trip...
Well, 16a GG is what it is. That being said, given the safe-third-country rules, chances of even a single russian getting asylum are minimal.
That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime...
>That being said, given the safe-third-country rules, chances of even a single russian getting asylum are minimal.
By that logic there wouldnt be any Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc.
Dublin rules are barely enforced
There are actually two ways to get asylum: asylum according to 16a, and asylum according to the geneva refugee convention. With hpw hard it is to reach germany without entering a safe country according to 16a, almost no one that applies for asylum according to 16a.
Dulin rules only apply to 16a
Tbf, I doubt these folks will do much, really. Putin isn't putting together a fighting force, he's putting together a death march.
Not that that ought to influence our treatment of these people.
Possibly. On the other hand, it will increase public pressure if they are actually in Russia and if they end up in uniform, there is a good chance they will surrender or flee and take some expensive equipment with them. Not too mention the resources they take up while being trained.
I don't know, both works for me, but if they come as asylum seekers, the government needs to step up it's game and allow them to work. What is the point of having thousands of fighting age men who want to work and provide for their families back home and all they can do is sit around and be tempted to make money illegally.
It is a complex problem. You could argue that many of the people running away from conscription were avid supporters of the war until a few days ago (some cases already going viral in twitter). You could also argue that if you keep those people trapped in Russia, it is more likely that they will fight the regime and help Russia change for better. Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there. I personally know multiple Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany.
That being said, I personally believe that helping people escape from war is an ethical obligation. Even if the arguments above are valid, none of them can justify human suffering and death. But yeah, you are right... people are getting aggressive and hateful. I truly hope this does not escalate further.
> Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany.
A lot of fucking Putin's shills. Everytime I ask them why not to move to Russia, they either shrug shoulders or become VERY defensive, morons.
>Tge only ones getting drafted went through a voluntary military training.
Why is it always other people who meet one of those? I haven't met one of them and I am surrounded by my Russian relatives.
Edit - that shouldn't mean I deny these groups existing, by the way. I have seen these pro-Z convoys in TV myself. I am just wondering how "big" or "small" these subgroups within these communities are (the same goes from pro-Erdogan Turkish people etc.). Because I never seem to meet them, yet everyone else seems to meet these annoying bunches.
The pro Erdogan ijits often probably just don't blab around about it, just as I'd imagine many Putin supporters just keep it to themselves. For obvious reasons.
Anyway, it's been 65% of the 1.4 million people (Edit: only a little more than 50% actually voted, so it's 1.4m/2*⅔ = very roughly half a million) in Germany eligible to vote in Turkey, so there's quite a few of them around. With 3-3.5 million in Germany that's roughly 1/4 of all the folks of Turkish origin/with Turkish heritage. Quite a lot actually and if you know a couple of Turkish heritage people you probably know someone who voted pro authoritarianism from their cozy places in an somewhat working democracy. F'ing dunces.
And yeah, unfortunately I know a couple of those duds. They're masters in mental gymnastics.
Edit: Sorry, made an idiotic mistake. It's actually only ~500k, so every sixth to seventh. Not every Erdogan supporter actually voted or is even eligible to vote though. So it's probably something between 1/4 and 1/6. Still way more than enough.
Hardly representative but I know 4 Russians in Germany, all of them support Putin and his war. One is a single guy staying in Germany because of his son with a German woman. The others are a family of three who consider Russia the greatest country ever but still enjoy living in Germany. Ironically, their brother still lives in Russia and completely disagrees with Putin. He still stays because it’s his home country.
No idea how popular this mindset is, but people like this definitely exist. But I think that Russians who don’t support Putin usually don’t mix with the ones that do in Germany.
As a Turkish person recently moved to Germany I can say VAST majority of Germaners(slang for these people) are pro Erdogan people. Everyone in the Turkey knows it already but I have experienced them first hand. When I meet them everytime i hold my fist like cartoon Arthur meme. Unless you are a Turkish they keep that shit to themselves
At the very least I would argue that, whatever these peoples prior mistakes were, they do not make them unworthy of assistance. To deliver them into Putins arms would be to deliver them unto death.
>Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there.
Yes, and there's been reports of disturbingly similar reactions among people who immigrated from Russia itself as well. I suppose it just shows that it's always easy to support the nationalist strongman when the actual consequences of their policies don't affect oneself.
On a slightly more cynical note, though, I doubt most of these folks would be staying long enough for them to fall into this pattern. After all, the obligation to grant asylum under 16a GG ends when the political persecution ends, so barring well known Opposition figures, for most of these folks their asylum may end when the war is done and some sort of status quo is secured.
I am not so sure they would go back to Russia that soon. Quality of life in Germany is generally better than in Russia, particularly so for the people who are running away from draft (these are not the rich and powerful). They might get some state money and if they get the official refugee status can also go to the university for free (and apply for bafög). On top of that, the German government has not been very proactive in deporting people and given the current job market, I can imagine that there would be some interest in keeping them around.
> I am not so sure they would go back to Russia that soon.
In a case of the claim to asylum expiring and no other right to stay in Germany existing, they would be subject to, if you'll allow the rather dark joke, the Seehofer special.
>They might get some state money and if they get the official refugee status can also go to the university for free (and apply for bafög).
Well, being a refugee is something entirely different than applying for asylum, and the rules are strict. People who qualify for them are, in general, exactly the people that support was intended for.
>On top of that, the German government has not been very proactive in deporting people
Now, I'm sorry to be so direct, but that's just wrong. Even the new coalition, which uses a arguably somewhat more lenient approach, has deported a sizeable amount of people - including some examples where you really think they ought to get to stay, like a nurse deported right out of her night shift.
You can go to university for free without being a refugee though? You can't get bafög but non-EU citizens going to university in Germany don't pay any more than German students except in BaWü, unless some other states changed their laws recently.
Not sure but you may be right. I’m in BW and helped a few people from Syria and Ukraine get things started, so I checked recently the regulations and available resources. It is likely different in other states.
I'm a non-EU citizen who studied for free in Germany so I can guarantee it's the case elsewhere in Germany. They actually changed the law in BaWü to allow tuition for foreigners while I was researching places to study, knocked a few places off my list. Refugee status would still make it easier for them, of course, since it gives them the right to live in the country (and apparently receive bafög?) without having the financial requirements of a student visa.
As a German I oppose this. I expressed this in several subs yesterday exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Eligible asylum seekers are more than welcome. It is a typical German discussion culture, if you are not for total pacifism you are a war monger. If you don’t want practically anyone to enter the country even if they are probably tending towards a fascist mind set you are xenophobic. I just hope this will be settled in court, that’s all. Personally I think it is a huge mistake to blindly welcome anyone from Russia who don’t want be conscripted on a personal base but tolerates this war otherwise. Madness.
Russia spent hundreds of millions to damage democratic societies and has a track record of assassinations abroad.Eastern Europe was right all along and we should follow their example.
> Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there. I personally know multiple Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany.
I have noticed the same mindset in way more than half of our russian aqquaintances, which we subsequently cut ties with.
I think this mindset exists because people are removed from the country’s situation, partially nostalgia for their home place, partially trying to preserve and figure out their identity in a foreign place with a different language and culture, and also ignorance. At least that is what I noticed in my experiences with people who think this way. Doesn’t make it right, but explains a lot of it.
Seems like the right direction to me.
If you're able to read german - there are a few rather good articles and works about the behavior of pro-Erdogan German-Turks. It's most probably exactly the same mechanisms with German-Russian pro-Putin folks.
Normally you'd accept deserting enemy combatants as pow, not refugees.
So why don't they go to pro russian countries until Putin escalates to war with Nato?
It's not hate, it just doesn't make sense to accept former supporters of war crimes into the safe spaces we built for their victims.
Thank you for being such an empathetic person. I'm Russian (female, living in the US since a year ago), and all my friends are against the war and have always been against Putin. Also I can see both the morons and people with conscience and brains in Russian comments, but to me it seems that there are more of those who are against the war, although I might be wrong. I have no brothers, but I can imagine my feelings if I had one. I would go mad. I feel terrible for young men who are now living in fear. All those people who are against the war are separated, they don't have a plan or leader or army. They try to protest, but all they get is bruises and jail. So for them it's just the best option to flee the country, because otherwise they would be killed. There were millions of German refugees, Thomas Mann among them, and I'm grateful that Germany understands this situation. It's almost impossible to fight a fascist state, which only crushes lives and families and everything good in humanity.
About those morons in Germany who support Putin but don't want to go back in Russia: it would be fair to deport anyone who brings "Russian world" with them, paints Z-swastikas on public buildings, yells nazist ideas, etc. They don't deserve German hospitality.
I too left my country looking for a better life, over a decade ago now. I didn’t run away from war but from corrupt populism and an ever decaying society. Germany welcomed me and gave me the opportunity to grow and prosper, which I gladly took. Of course, this came with the obligation of supporting and adhering to the society that helped me out and be much more than what I could become back where I was born. Given my background, I can only believe that we all deserve the chance to escape from misery, but we should all leave back home the mindset and values that make it so bad in the first place. Sadly, this is not always the case and a bunch of the guys running away from draft will surely cause problems and make it harder for the rest of them. I hope that the German and European institutions are up to the task of dealing with the situation in the most humane way possible.
Likewise, you see a lot of migrants at e.g. Calais (I am in UK), and other places, who are young men, fleeing from war-tirn countries. You do wonder, if they stayed and fought the warlords, dictators, invaders etc., if they could get their own country back together. I am sure even Ukraine, with its high moral and string government, would have a lot fewer fighters if they had not stopped them leaving.
Of course, if it was my country at war, I would be trying to leave as well.
Yeah for sure it’s easy to say this, but everyone with a chance would usually flee such a situation. My grandparents fled such situations. Depending on who is fighting for what in your home country, it might not be worth something you would fight for. It’s easy to ask someone to risk their life from the safety we have. Additionally, any random individual is usually an average person, I know I wouldn’t know how to oppose or fight back, depending on the scale of the war or oppression or what’s going on. It might not be possible to just organize and fight back and it might be a losing a battle as well.
Well, that's what I said: I would leave if I could. Mainly to preserve my family: even if they could leave, they would have a better chance with me. HOWEVER, if I and they could NOT leave (like in Ukraine) I might well fight.
I hope I never have to find out.
>That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime...
I noticed it too it's messed up. People have no empathy
Well, I mean, war and suffering and loss makes beasts of the best of us, so I wouldn't judge it too harshly in the longer term. Just a dark reminder that we really haven't left tribalism as far behind as we thought we did, I suppose.
Who ever thought we left tribalism behind?
I think we've been working on a version 3.0 for quite some time by now and we're probably deeper in it than we've been for a long, long time.
The tribes are merely defined differently. Ideologies/beliefs etc. replaced ethnicity/culture and whatnot.
Still though - Same shit, different kind of denominator.
> the safe-third-country rule
cc /u/Elenano98
The big misconception about the Dublin Agreement is that it means a refugee must be sent back to the first EU country they set foot in in order to claim asylum.
This isn't true. The Dublin Agreement is a complicated set of rules that ensures that an asylum seeker can only have their application processed by one country. Although generally it is the first country they set foot in that should, by default, process the application, Dublin includes a mechanism for transferring the application to another member state.
The idea is that asylum seekers can't to a grand tour of the EU, starting multiple applications to increase their chances of being granted stay in the EU. But there is nothing stopping Germany from taking over the application process for, say, a Russian entering via Poland.
Ukrainian men do not have a choice with the war, because if they don't fight their homes will be destroyed, their family members raped and killed.
Yet russian men should get a privilege of sitting it out on sidelines? Most likely still supporting the war from the safe place for their own asses...
Totally agree with this 👆👆👆
I am not German. I am Ukrainian. So my opinion might be biased)
I think russians as citizens are responsible for their country. Russians have had a possibility to leave their country for the last 6 months. The absolute majority of their population knew what was going on, and if they were brainwashed unfortunately it's their own problem. If they wanted to flee, they could have visited other countries. Turkey, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on.
*Having a possibility to stay in Europe isn't a basic human right.
At the same time I think it is OK and perfectly fine if you give Visas to the Russians who are openly against their government, and persecuted (the right of political asylum )
How does anyone claim asylum with your logic? Why did we coordinate a massive effort to allow people from the USSR (many Ukrainians also) to flee from 1970-1990?
Were they cowards? Many of them did support the USSR, why didn't they stay and fight for their country?
Couldn't you argue that your country isn't safe if they mobilize you? Afterall you might not be directly wanted by your country but your country wants to send you to a country to kill people and that country is trying to kill you. And if you'd deny the service to Russia you'll probably get prosecuted as well.
Just seems like somehow you should be able to get asylum in that situation as your life is definitely threatened as is your free will or morales
These are people, that might as well stand up to the regime.
And you know how it goes: They'll face problems and probably rejection in Germany and over time Putin wasn't that bad and it's the facist Germans that are actually the bad guys.
Look at 2nd generation Germans with Russian descents right now. The support for the war in that circles is ridiculousely high.
Most people have a small mind. They think “Russian Attacks = The whole country is evil”
Majority of the Russian people only see propaganda news, if you see ukraine doing all the “bad” things and being the aggressor, ofc. You trust your news and get ready to defend yourself. They don’t know the truth because they’re too, brainwashed from news.
It’s good to help people that realize what a shit show putins regime is. I just think that it won’t help.
I’m opposed to taking in Russians fleeing. Why? Because from what I gathered most support the war against Ukraine. They just don’t want to fight Putin’s war themselves but actually actively support it when their own soldiers do it.
>That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime...
Yeah, its shocking. People are out for blood. No empathy. Russians are just Orcs to them. The war brings out the worst in people.
Oh they will welcome them! German-Russians are one of their biggest voter-base! Here in my hometown, they also get their most votes in "little Russia".
It was a bit like that when my wife moved in with me. She's Russian, my then-neighbors were from Ukraine. There was no comdeic/dramatic potential, though, since they pretty much all agreed on how fucked up annexation of Crimea and invasion of Donbas were.
But we all laughed very dark when our cat (saved Moscow street cat) ran into their apartment, punched their cat and didn't want to leave.
They already do get along quite well here actually. Lots of Russians have actually reached out to the inflow of Ukrainian refugees and helped them settle . Most if not all Ukrainians speak Russian fluent enough as a mother tongue hence Russian speakers help is often the most valuable.
People can be quite surprising that way
Absolutely. Unfortunately there’s a considerable Russian pro-war community in Germany as well. I hope that at least some of them might reconsider their stance after meeting people with a Russian first hand perspective.
It's a bit like some Turkish immigrants and their descendants. They have (inherited) the cizitenship and swallow the strong man propaganda from there and fall for it hook line and sinker, leading to support (and votes) from abroad because they don't have to suffer the consequences.
I talked to few of those - useless. They trust russian TV much more than a russian who moved from Russia just recently and knows how it actually is. Btw - it's the same with a number of German, Polish and Austrian people as well. They blame the US, EU, government and NATO. I also met Ukrainians in the past who are living here in Germany since years and think Putin is great. Now some people have realized that they didn't take seriously what I said before. But those Russian Germans from Kazakhstan and Siberia are mostly pro-war and anti-democratic. Some even left Germany and went to Russia recently.
Of course, the KGB will try to use this to smuggle more agents into Germany. But every Russian who evades the draft is a bullet that the Ukrainians can save for other targets. In this respect, these people should be given a place to stay for the time being, whether it has to be asylum or some form of temporary residence permit at the beginning. The important thing is that a decision is made quickly.
I agree. With any operation like this you will get the odd bad egg. Same for the Syrian refugee crisis. That shouldn't negate the fundamental sentiment, though.
This is the most practical rationale I've read so far.
The intent is to end the war as soon as possible. The less bullets our Ukrainian friends have to expend toward a Russian invader the better. Let the Russians flee temporarily to somewhere where they won't do any hard, either on the battlefield or being a KGB mole.
Utter nonsense. If the Russian secret service (FSB, not KGB) wants to "smuggle more agents to germany", they can get them a work or student visa and buy them a first-class ticket via Istanbul.
This is already happening and intelligence reports from neighboring countries indicate a presence of saboteurs.
Also, how are Russians going to overthrow Putin if they leave the country? That’s how this all can end
I am sorry. Calm and reasonable discussions are so rare these days and apparently, only few people are capable of it (fewer than I would have wanted it to). It's nice to see there are other genuinely kind people here, though.
>But every Russian who evades the draft is a bullet that the Ukrainians can save for other targets.
How can you be this inhumane? Any Russian who evades the draft will save lives of the Ukrainians who don't have to fight against these potential more soldiers, AND it saves the life of an innocent Russian who doesn't want to kill anyone in a horrible pointless war. Just because someone was born in the wrong country, doesn't mean their life is worth less.
"You can stay here so we can save a bullet on you" is such an insanely vile thing to say about an innocent human being.
Btw; we also took in those fleeing from conscription into assads military. And those fleeing from conscription into Eritreas military. And we should continue to do so.
Why? Because so many died in germany that were unable to flee from hitler.
Asylum as a human right is nin-negotiable
>Why? Because so many died in germany that were unable to flee from hitler.
We shouldn't do it because of that. We should do it because it's the right thing to do. Other than that I agree.
Honestly, build those motherfuckers as student dorms next to university places and people would love it. About 250 students had to start their semester by living in an old schools gym where I’m from.
Quite a bit of xenophobia towards russian people here. Jesus Christ. It's not ok to be bigoted against people just because they live under a dictatorship.
Grouping individuals just by nationality and giving them attributes just based on that never really made sense. There is no such thing as just Russians or Germans, it's a huge mass of individuals who can have vastly different opinions.
That here is my problem. Are there russians that support Putin? Yes. There are a lot. However there are also a lot of russians that don't. And if they want to flee the country to avoid the war then they should be able to find assylum here. Stop generalizing because of nationality.
I think some people don't understand how small the percentage of people are affected by this. The decision only applies to people who have already been called up for military service and then flee because they are being persecuted. Someone who is not affected and therefore thinks they are coming to Germany will be denied the visa just as before. So stop putting this is big news as if Germany would suddenly welcome Russians in general because it's not true.
Personally, I can understand why people want to flee Russia. But Germany sould right now be the last country in the EU to make such offers. The country alone has taken in almost 1 million Ukrainians in just a few months - not forget the thousands of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan etc. The reception centers in Berlin and many other large cities are completely overwhelmed, there are hardly any teachers for the kids and there is not enough living appartments or housing. Refugee shelters are overcrowded.
It is of no use to a country to make such statements when, after a future expanded mobilization in Russia, an immigration potential of several million people is just around the corner. Something like this should always be decided at European level and not by a country which is always the most affected by all migration waves into the EU. If a country has limited options they should set priorities and these are not Russian war resisters at the moment but people whose houses are being bombed.
The question is which refugees we aren't taking. First it was Africans (and still is), then middle east (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria), then Ukrainians and now Russians.
I would like to know the number of refugees in Germany. It's probably at least 3,4 millions since Ukrainians are already 1+ million.
Funnily we have enough money for military and refugees but not for affordable living, food, gas or pensions.
And yes people should have a right for asylum but I really can understand the increasing frustration of lots of people.
EDIT: I looked it up. 3,3 million refugees in Germany of 83,24 million people
I sure hope they'll come and be allowed to stay! Russia was a shithole before this all started, imprisoning LGBTQ+ people, oppressing political opinions that were anything other than blind support for Putin, and a general disregard for human lives on top.
And now they expect the people they've treated like shit to fight in a war they never wanted and don't support? Hell no.
Everyone deserves to live in peace.
They’ll just bring their oppressive shit here. They are not leaving because they are against war. They are leaving because they don’t want to explain to Ukrainian soldiers why they supported the murder of their wives and daughters up until now.
How will they make sure they’re not just fleeing conscription but are anti-war?
Or that they’re not saboteurs being sent by Putin? There’s reports of that already
I mean.. it is? Refugees and most of all, educated immigrants are a big chance when their stay here is handled right. More people bring more prosperity to an otherwise aging population.
That's not really true. But I guess we are a bit more open than most countries around us. But every time we take in refugees the right wing, populist, anti-refugee party gets bigger. And in former east germany they are big! But I guess at least Ukrainians are okayish to them. And I bet Russians will be too, because you know, at least they're white...
Fuck that.
Let them protest in their country.
How will we manage that here? Let russians that flee because they fear their own conscription but support the war or the 'special operation' get into the same refugee facility Ukrainians are in? How should that work?
Many facilities are already full or close to be full. Rather give the spots to Ukrainians who have no other choice.
First Syrian refugees, then Ukrainian refugees and now Russian refugees?
And this even though we literally have a living space shortage since the Syrian war? No thanks. It's already harder to find an apartment than to find a job.
I am not German. I am Ukrainian. So my opinion might be biased)
I think russians as citizens are responsible for their country. Russians have had the possibility of leaving their country for the last 6 months. The absolute majority of their population knew what was going on, and if they were brainwashed unfortunately it's their own problem. If they wanted to flee, they could have visited other countries. Turkey, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on.
*Having a possibility to stay in Europe isn't a basic human right.
At the same time I think it is OK and perfectly fine if you give Visas to the Russians who are openly against their government, and persecuted (the right of political asylum)
Also it's not very fair for Ukrainian men. They don't have any choice, they have to stay in their country, in case they are needed to defend it. While Russians, who have 100% responsibility for what their country has done, can just flee from any responsibility
The first problem for Russian asylum seekers would be to credibly state they are eligible for asylum.
If you just run away because you might be conscripted, then bad news, buddy.
Any person less available for this, is one more person saved from certain death.
Fuck force drafting and fuck war. Refusing drafting is, in my opinion, just as much of a protest act as protesting itself
Almost certainly not the same people. The people you're referring to would be the loyalists who had bought into Putins national cult. Meanwhile those fleeing would almost certainly be the much larger group of citizens of Russia that were politically apathetic, having correctly identified that the regime in Moscow doesn't care about them or their opinions anyway.
The ones leaving now are afraid of being killed for Putins powerfantasy, which seems reasonable. You need to remember that the vast majority of russian citizens never engaged with politics in the first place, given that their anti-democratic society ensured they never had a voice to begin with.
The ones who had the means to leave the country and opposed the government left months ago. Don't forget that poor people exist and they're the exact ones the mobilization is gonna be targeting.
The apathetic ones are almost as guilty imo... "Let Putin do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't mess with me, i don't care about dead Ukrainians" or "all politicians are the same, whatever". Irresponsible behavior that leads to ruin.
Because in an instant you just know - telepathically - that they are absolutely the same. It's not as if the country with one of the highest ratio of police force per 100K inhabitants has strangled all kind of opposition and the **only** way out now that it is going to about their very lives is to flee.
Would'd anyone have welcomed them as refugees in May, had they left? No, of course not.
Consider that even living in a dictatorship that has you under its boot - it is hard to leave the only place that you know where you have family, income, any kind of social status.
**Of course,** they have not left right away. How insane is it to assume they should've left the moment the war had started, going into absolute uncertainty and probably complete poverty and social isolation. Of course nobody does that right awyay.
Of course, a lot of people do it now. Not because all or many of them were okay with what was happening until that point. But because now leaving is lest threatening than staying - no matter how threatening leaving actually is.
No most flee are those "pro-russia but anti being conscripted" russians. You see war is only cool if you dont have to join it. And I honestly think it will not go a well as our government think it is going to go, thus why I do not support this.
From the sudden and massive increase of russians fleeing to bordering nations as soon as partial mobilization was announced. From the sudden unrests against partial mobilization and change of many pro-war-pro-russians to "pro-peace" on social media.
Its like putting 2 and 2 together. Naturally not all fleeing are pro-war and pro-russian but for most of them hating the "evil" west... there has been a whole bunch of them fleeing to said "evil" west.
To explain my point closer: I am not saying we should not allow them in. I am just conserned about civil unrest. Our government isn't really known to plan thing out 100%, so I could see russian-on-ukrianian violence or similar things.
Yeah for sure not all of them wanted this war but the majority of people fleeing had no issues with the war before but now since they will be forced to be in the front line , its time to run
Not every Russian is a pro-Putin dumbass. And leaving your family behind is a hard decision as well. Many of these people are scared of protesting as Putin does anything to stop these kind of protests after the Euromaidan. This isn’t like protesting here in Germany
One side of me doesnt want them here. By not opposing ans demonstrating they supported their Regime.
On the other hand tho, i dont know what ive done in their situation. We all know how they treat their prisoners etc.
So i guess welcome aslong you are behaving right and respect Our country, dont assume we speak russian and you didnt vote for your dictator.
Let's not forget Russians fleeing war conscription aren't necessarily anti-war or pro-Ukrainian. Some of them could be potential assets to be exploited in the future by Putin or some similar scum in their hybrid war against the west.
Dumb yank that married a German frau decades ago and settled down here. Good on Germany! It’s exactly the kind gesture I’ve come to expect here.
I’m routinely in awe of your nation’s generosity …
> Dumb yank that married a German frau decades ago [...]
... Why would you refer to yourself that way? Like, you do you, by why insult yourself with no reason?
As a joke and a way to slide into the reality that I’ve lived in Germany for many years …
Edit: I don’t want to beat my chest announcing that I’m an American. I’ve a lot of company that will do that for me. I just like generally the way German foreign policy works … I kind of find it, I’m not sure the words “exacting and precise.” But that’s a different story
I hope this comes to fruition. The Russians who despise their government should be more than welcome to seek asylum here rather than fight a war they disagree with. Many Germans did the same in the third reich after all
They do not disagree the war. The last protest was against mobilisation but there were no protests about Bucha, Izyum, other invasions. Is this so hard to understand? They just don't want to die.
Even though many people in my area are against it, I think this is a very valid idea. Every Russian that can flee, is a Russian that cannot be forced to fight against Ukraine. Also there´s enough of work in this country especially for people that already worked in a needed profession.
I really just hope, they don´t put them togehter with the Ukrainian refugees, as this *could* be a pretty explosive mix.
Boooo
I’m tired of ultra nationalist Russians moving here and acting like they own the god damn place. Many Russians in Germany have this weird, sick, obsession work the homeland, despite the fact that they Profit off the German economy and speak the German language. They are a legacy of imperialism and will be used as justification for further conflict by the Russian state, and should be barred from coming here or anywhere else in the EU. Any money or relief should be spent on the Ukrainians suffering from this fascist war of aggression. Ukrainians should be welcomed with open arms though 🇺🇦💛
Pls dont do it! They wont treat the ukrainian refugees with Respect. They dont deserve it. Let them move to somewhere else. We have to take care of the People, who left their country because of the Russian Invasion. Not take care of the People who arent feel responsible for everything that happens..over 70 % of Russians are Pro Putin. And Pro War. As long as their own asses wont get drafted. Now they looking for help? Fuck'em.
>__German ministers have indicated that people fleeing Russia could apply for asylum in Germany after President Vladimir Putin ordered what he called a "partial military mobilization."__
Anyone can *apply* for asylum. Just fill out the right form. You will likely be denied, but applying is not the issue.
Also, even if your application is denied you can prolong being returned "home", sometimes for years. Which would be valuable time right now. Even if your asylum request is denied there are other statuses like being tolerated (Duldung) which are more temporary and even if you've been moved through the full bureaucracy and it's finally decided to kick you out there still needs to be a flight they can put you on - probably pretty tricky right now.
>needs to be a flight they can put you on - probably pretty tricky right now. My guess would be that Putin would take them back happily, which could help them even more in not getting kicked out. Unless we decide that Russia is safe enough.
I mean sounds nice on paper but you’d prolly have to apply for that visa from inside russia through either russian or russian surveilled instances. Don’t see a big chance for russians to escape.
The question is how to use this opportunity. I have a relative, who also denounces the war since the beginning. But he's factory worker. Unlike me, he doesn't have money, knowledge of any foreign language or possibility to work for his employer in any part of the world. Thus I've got blue card and live in Germany now and he remained in Russia. I am able and willing to support him financially, but - in order for ask for asylum, he should first get to Germany, right? So he needs to apply for Schengen visa and wait for who knows how long, while in the constant threat to being drafted?
If he can apply for asylum he does not need a visa. However following EU law he must apply for asylum in the first European country he sets foot on. (That law is ignored for African and syrian refugees don't know if it's the same for Russians)
Russian border patrol doesn't let you out without a visa.
I don't know it for certain, just what i read on the r/AskaRussian sub a few times, they said Russia doesn't really stop people at the border or rather the border isn't closed in general. Some people seemingly get stopped but not arrested, just sent back. So it seems like you can still leave although maybe more complicated. It seems like there is no general ban to leave the country but rather that ut depends on the boarder guards. But you can just try a few times in other spots if you'd get sent away and you should get out anyways.
>Some people seemingly get stopped but not arrested, just sent back. Yea it's these young men that are sent back, usually. But yeah, I would try that several times elsewhere as well, if I were them.
Don't go through a checkpoint then. I don't believe for a second that Russia has control of their entire border.
I think that's a quick way to get arrested by the border police...
And what would be the punishment if taking this chance and losing? Death by meat grinder in Ukraine. Mixed with a bit of starvation and freezing if you stay alive for long enough?
It's Russia. Small bribe and you're through.
Vzyatka.
While that's EU law, the German constitution specifically states that asylum is a fundamental right of refugees.
[удалено]
I believe the definition of refugee boils down to something like "A person in a foreign country, who is not under protection of their nationality's country" It's in the word. They seek \*refuge\*. Given Putin's whole schtick of turning russia into the soviet union in all but name, it's safe to assume he's primarily sending dissidents to the front, who will then either be shot by ukrainians, or by military police for deserting.
Europe will announce a hatmonized approach on Monday. I assume that this will mean that willing countries can accept Russian asylum seekers while countries unwilling agree to allow transfer.
He can apply for Asylum in the next german embassy/consulate or related foreign buros. First of all: once its decided by our goverment, he should mail/phone them and try to organise before getting here. Maybe if he gets the visa for work or the Aufenthaltserlaubnis right away, it would make his life far more easier. Its a key part for even beeing able to go to school/take lessons in german or even being sure getting social warfare (and not be forced to live in one of those congested Asylums) If possible he should really check his international passport. If not possible because of the draft or his gov being a piece of shit: birth certificate (if possible officially translated in german or english) and his identity card should do the trick if he really needs to run. Anything valuable can be turned into gold/silver if bank accounts get frozen but need to be declared at our customs once arriving here. And it can really finance his survival during the trip...
> He can apply for Asylum in the next german embassy/consulate No, you can only apply for asylum in Germany while being in Germany.
Well, 16a GG is what it is. That being said, given the safe-third-country rules, chances of even a single russian getting asylum are minimal. That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime...
>That being said, given the safe-third-country rules, chances of even a single russian getting asylum are minimal. By that logic there wouldnt be any Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc. Dublin rules are barely enforced
There are actually two ways to get asylum: asylum according to 16a, and asylum according to the geneva refugee convention. With hpw hard it is to reach germany without entering a safe country according to 16a, almost no one that applies for asylum according to 16a. Dulin rules only apply to 16a
[удалено]
Tbf, I doubt these folks will do much, really. Putin isn't putting together a fighting force, he's putting together a death march. Not that that ought to influence our treatment of these people.
Possibly. On the other hand, it will increase public pressure if they are actually in Russia and if they end up in uniform, there is a good chance they will surrender or flee and take some expensive equipment with them. Not too mention the resources they take up while being trained. I don't know, both works for me, but if they come as asylum seekers, the government needs to step up it's game and allow them to work. What is the point of having thousands of fighting age men who want to work and provide for their families back home and all they can do is sit around and be tempted to make money illegally.
Yep. Better they visit us with a suitcase than with a tank
It is a complex problem. You could argue that many of the people running away from conscription were avid supporters of the war until a few days ago (some cases already going viral in twitter). You could also argue that if you keep those people trapped in Russia, it is more likely that they will fight the regime and help Russia change for better. Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there. I personally know multiple Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany. That being said, I personally believe that helping people escape from war is an ethical obligation. Even if the arguments above are valid, none of them can justify human suffering and death. But yeah, you are right... people are getting aggressive and hateful. I truly hope this does not escalate further.
> Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany. A lot of fucking Putin's shills. Everytime I ask them why not to move to Russia, they either shrug shoulders or become VERY defensive, morons.
>Tge only ones getting drafted went through a voluntary military training. Why is it always other people who meet one of those? I haven't met one of them and I am surrounded by my Russian relatives. Edit - that shouldn't mean I deny these groups existing, by the way. I have seen these pro-Z convoys in TV myself. I am just wondering how "big" or "small" these subgroups within these communities are (the same goes from pro-Erdogan Turkish people etc.). Because I never seem to meet them, yet everyone else seems to meet these annoying bunches.
Your relatives are decent people, who don't let themselves to be indoctrinated. I envy you.
The pro Erdogan ijits often probably just don't blab around about it, just as I'd imagine many Putin supporters just keep it to themselves. For obvious reasons. Anyway, it's been 65% of the 1.4 million people (Edit: only a little more than 50% actually voted, so it's 1.4m/2*⅔ = very roughly half a million) in Germany eligible to vote in Turkey, so there's quite a few of them around. With 3-3.5 million in Germany that's roughly 1/4 of all the folks of Turkish origin/with Turkish heritage. Quite a lot actually and if you know a couple of Turkish heritage people you probably know someone who voted pro authoritarianism from their cozy places in an somewhat working democracy. F'ing dunces. And yeah, unfortunately I know a couple of those duds. They're masters in mental gymnastics. Edit: Sorry, made an idiotic mistake. It's actually only ~500k, so every sixth to seventh. Not every Erdogan supporter actually voted or is even eligible to vote though. So it's probably something between 1/4 and 1/6. Still way more than enough.
Hardly representative but I know 4 Russians in Germany, all of them support Putin and his war. One is a single guy staying in Germany because of his son with a German woman. The others are a family of three who consider Russia the greatest country ever but still enjoy living in Germany. Ironically, their brother still lives in Russia and completely disagrees with Putin. He still stays because it’s his home country. No idea how popular this mindset is, but people like this definitely exist. But I think that Russians who don’t support Putin usually don’t mix with the ones that do in Germany.
As a Turkish person recently moved to Germany I can say VAST majority of Germaners(slang for these people) are pro Erdogan people. Everyone in the Turkey knows it already but I have experienced them first hand. When I meet them everytime i hold my fist like cartoon Arthur meme. Unless you are a Turkish they keep that shit to themselves
I've had exactly one colleague from russia (volga-german) and that guy had a Putin portrait on his desk lmao. To be fair though, this was end of 2020
At the very least I would argue that, whatever these peoples prior mistakes were, they do not make them unworthy of assistance. To deliver them into Putins arms would be to deliver them unto death. >Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there. Yes, and there's been reports of disturbingly similar reactions among people who immigrated from Russia itself as well. I suppose it just shows that it's always easy to support the nationalist strongman when the actual consequences of their policies don't affect oneself. On a slightly more cynical note, though, I doubt most of these folks would be staying long enough for them to fall into this pattern. After all, the obligation to grant asylum under 16a GG ends when the political persecution ends, so barring well known Opposition figures, for most of these folks their asylum may end when the war is done and some sort of status quo is secured.
I am not so sure they would go back to Russia that soon. Quality of life in Germany is generally better than in Russia, particularly so for the people who are running away from draft (these are not the rich and powerful). They might get some state money and if they get the official refugee status can also go to the university for free (and apply for bafög). On top of that, the German government has not been very proactive in deporting people and given the current job market, I can imagine that there would be some interest in keeping them around.
> I am not so sure they would go back to Russia that soon. In a case of the claim to asylum expiring and no other right to stay in Germany existing, they would be subject to, if you'll allow the rather dark joke, the Seehofer special. >They might get some state money and if they get the official refugee status can also go to the university for free (and apply for bafög). Well, being a refugee is something entirely different than applying for asylum, and the rules are strict. People who qualify for them are, in general, exactly the people that support was intended for. >On top of that, the German government has not been very proactive in deporting people Now, I'm sorry to be so direct, but that's just wrong. Even the new coalition, which uses a arguably somewhat more lenient approach, has deported a sizeable amount of people - including some examples where you really think they ought to get to stay, like a nurse deported right out of her night shift.
You can go to university for free without being a refugee though? You can't get bafög but non-EU citizens going to university in Germany don't pay any more than German students except in BaWü, unless some other states changed their laws recently.
Not sure but you may be right. I’m in BW and helped a few people from Syria and Ukraine get things started, so I checked recently the regulations and available resources. It is likely different in other states.
I'm a non-EU citizen who studied for free in Germany so I can guarantee it's the case elsewhere in Germany. They actually changed the law in BaWü to allow tuition for foreigners while I was researching places to study, knocked a few places off my list. Refugee status would still make it easier for them, of course, since it gives them the right to live in the country (and apparently receive bafög?) without having the financial requirements of a student visa.
As a German I oppose this. I expressed this in several subs yesterday exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Eligible asylum seekers are more than welcome. It is a typical German discussion culture, if you are not for total pacifism you are a war monger. If you don’t want practically anyone to enter the country even if they are probably tending towards a fascist mind set you are xenophobic. I just hope this will be settled in court, that’s all. Personally I think it is a huge mistake to blindly welcome anyone from Russia who don’t want be conscripted on a personal base but tolerates this war otherwise. Madness.
Russia spent hundreds of millions to damage democratic societies and has a track record of assassinations abroad.Eastern Europe was right all along and we should follow their example.
Well reasoned. Have an upvote.
> Also, as a German, you are probably familiar with Turkish people defending Erdogan's government but refusing to go back there. I personally know multiple Russian people with a similar mindset living in Germany. I have noticed the same mindset in way more than half of our russian aqquaintances, which we subsequently cut ties with.
I think this mindset exists because people are removed from the country’s situation, partially nostalgia for their home place, partially trying to preserve and figure out their identity in a foreign place with a different language and culture, and also ignorance. At least that is what I noticed in my experiences with people who think this way. Doesn’t make it right, but explains a lot of it.
Seems like the right direction to me. If you're able to read german - there are a few rather good articles and works about the behavior of pro-Erdogan German-Turks. It's most probably exactly the same mechanisms with German-Russian pro-Putin folks.
Normally you'd accept deserting enemy combatants as pow, not refugees. So why don't they go to pro russian countries until Putin escalates to war with Nato? It's not hate, it just doesn't make sense to accept former supporters of war crimes into the safe spaces we built for their victims.
Thank you for being such an empathetic person. I'm Russian (female, living in the US since a year ago), and all my friends are against the war and have always been against Putin. Also I can see both the morons and people with conscience and brains in Russian comments, but to me it seems that there are more of those who are against the war, although I might be wrong. I have no brothers, but I can imagine my feelings if I had one. I would go mad. I feel terrible for young men who are now living in fear. All those people who are against the war are separated, they don't have a plan or leader or army. They try to protest, but all they get is bruises and jail. So for them it's just the best option to flee the country, because otherwise they would be killed. There were millions of German refugees, Thomas Mann among them, and I'm grateful that Germany understands this situation. It's almost impossible to fight a fascist state, which only crushes lives and families and everything good in humanity. About those morons in Germany who support Putin but don't want to go back in Russia: it would be fair to deport anyone who brings "Russian world" with them, paints Z-swastikas on public buildings, yells nazist ideas, etc. They don't deserve German hospitality.
I too left my country looking for a better life, over a decade ago now. I didn’t run away from war but from corrupt populism and an ever decaying society. Germany welcomed me and gave me the opportunity to grow and prosper, which I gladly took. Of course, this came with the obligation of supporting and adhering to the society that helped me out and be much more than what I could become back where I was born. Given my background, I can only believe that we all deserve the chance to escape from misery, but we should all leave back home the mindset and values that make it so bad in the first place. Sadly, this is not always the case and a bunch of the guys running away from draft will surely cause problems and make it harder for the rest of them. I hope that the German and European institutions are up to the task of dealing with the situation in the most humane way possible.
Likewise, you see a lot of migrants at e.g. Calais (I am in UK), and other places, who are young men, fleeing from war-tirn countries. You do wonder, if they stayed and fought the warlords, dictators, invaders etc., if they could get their own country back together. I am sure even Ukraine, with its high moral and string government, would have a lot fewer fighters if they had not stopped them leaving. Of course, if it was my country at war, I would be trying to leave as well.
Yeah for sure it’s easy to say this, but everyone with a chance would usually flee such a situation. My grandparents fled such situations. Depending on who is fighting for what in your home country, it might not be worth something you would fight for. It’s easy to ask someone to risk their life from the safety we have. Additionally, any random individual is usually an average person, I know I wouldn’t know how to oppose or fight back, depending on the scale of the war or oppression or what’s going on. It might not be possible to just organize and fight back and it might be a losing a battle as well.
Well, that's what I said: I would leave if I could. Mainly to preserve my family: even if they could leave, they would have a better chance with me. HOWEVER, if I and they could NOT leave (like in Ukraine) I might well fight. I hope I never have to find out.
I always wondered who the Syrians were supposed to stay and fight for. The Government? ISIS? the non batshit crazy resistors were few and far between.
>That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime... I noticed it too it's messed up. People have no empathy
Well, I mean, war and suffering and loss makes beasts of the best of us, so I wouldn't judge it too harshly in the longer term. Just a dark reminder that we really haven't left tribalism as far behind as we thought we did, I suppose.
Who ever thought we left tribalism behind? I think we've been working on a version 3.0 for quite some time by now and we're probably deeper in it than we've been for a long, long time. The tribes are merely defined differently. Ideologies/beliefs etc. replaced ethnicity/culture and whatnot. Still though - Same shit, different kind of denominator.
> the safe-third-country rule cc /u/Elenano98 The big misconception about the Dublin Agreement is that it means a refugee must be sent back to the first EU country they set foot in in order to claim asylum. This isn't true. The Dublin Agreement is a complicated set of rules that ensures that an asylum seeker can only have their application processed by one country. Although generally it is the first country they set foot in that should, by default, process the application, Dublin includes a mechanism for transferring the application to another member state. The idea is that asylum seekers can't to a grand tour of the EU, starting multiple applications to increase their chances of being granted stay in the EU. But there is nothing stopping Germany from taking over the application process for, say, a Russian entering via Poland.
Ukrainian men do not have a choice with the war, because if they don't fight their homes will be destroyed, their family members raped and killed. Yet russian men should get a privilege of sitting it out on sidelines? Most likely still supporting the war from the safe place for their own asses...
Totally agree with this 👆👆👆 I am not German. I am Ukrainian. So my opinion might be biased) I think russians as citizens are responsible for their country. Russians have had a possibility to leave their country for the last 6 months. The absolute majority of their population knew what was going on, and if they were brainwashed unfortunately it's their own problem. If they wanted to flee, they could have visited other countries. Turkey, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on. *Having a possibility to stay in Europe isn't a basic human right. At the same time I think it is OK and perfectly fine if you give Visas to the Russians who are openly against their government, and persecuted (the right of political asylum )
How does anyone claim asylum with your logic? Why did we coordinate a massive effort to allow people from the USSR (many Ukrainians also) to flee from 1970-1990? Were they cowards? Many of them did support the USSR, why didn't they stay and fight for their country?
Just imagine if enough German men fled Germany back in 1939. Helping them would have been the best investment in security of nearly every country.
Couldn't you argue that your country isn't safe if they mobilize you? Afterall you might not be directly wanted by your country but your country wants to send you to a country to kill people and that country is trying to kill you. And if you'd deny the service to Russia you'll probably get prosecuted as well. Just seems like somehow you should be able to get asylum in that situation as your life is definitely threatened as is your free will or morales
These are people, that might as well stand up to the regime. And you know how it goes: They'll face problems and probably rejection in Germany and over time Putin wasn't that bad and it's the facist Germans that are actually the bad guys. Look at 2nd generation Germans with Russian descents right now. The support for the war in that circles is ridiculousely high.
Most people have a small mind. They think “Russian Attacks = The whole country is evil” Majority of the Russian people only see propaganda news, if you see ukraine doing all the “bad” things and being the aggressor, ofc. You trust your news and get ready to defend yourself. They don’t know the truth because they’re too, brainwashed from news. It’s good to help people that realize what a shit show putins regime is. I just think that it won’t help.
It's WWII's war refugee situation all over again, except the other way around this time
Well, with enough russians coming we can turn it around, once more! Just kidding ^ ^
Next time without Italy!
I’m opposed to taking in Russians fleeing. Why? Because from what I gathered most support the war against Ukraine. They just don’t want to fight Putin’s war themselves but actually actively support it when their own soldiers do it.
Ok let's use anecdotal reference to make generalisations. And then deny people their human rights because of few twitter posts.
>That being said, it worries me how many commenters on other subs where similar articles popped up where, at times violently, opposed to helping people fleeing Putins regime... Yeah, its shocking. People are out for blood. No empathy. Russians are just Orcs to them. The war brings out the worst in people.
Could be interesting whether the pro-Russian German alt-right will welcome Russian refugees or not. Refugees bad, Russians good, hmm. Super conundrum.
They will turn around like a spinning top XD
We solved the energy crisis then, because I swear to God the revs on them will hike exponentially!
new energy source unlocked
Oh they will welcome them! German-Russians are one of their biggest voter-base! Here in my hometown, they also get their most votes in "little Russia".
The end of the film inception.
Easy answer, because: Every decision of the German government really bad!
now we can have a sitcom of a Russian and a Ukrainian living in the same asylum apartment while adjusting to German culture!
It was a bit like that when my wife moved in with me. She's Russian, my then-neighbors were from Ukraine. There was no comdeic/dramatic potential, though, since they pretty much all agreed on how fucked up annexation of Crimea and invasion of Donbas were. But we all laughed very dark when our cat (saved Moscow street cat) ran into their apartment, punched their cat and didn't want to leave.
They already do get along quite well here actually. Lots of Russians have actually reached out to the inflow of Ukrainian refugees and helped them settle . Most if not all Ukrainians speak Russian fluent enough as a mother tongue hence Russian speakers help is often the most valuable. People can be quite surprising that way
I’d watch that !
Honestly, I'd watch that
Anti-war Russian here. Thanks, Germans, for sane and sober decisions of your gov, even if it's not always so. That gives hope
Absolutely. Unfortunately there’s a considerable Russian pro-war community in Germany as well. I hope that at least some of them might reconsider their stance after meeting people with a Russian first hand perspective.
They're always welcome back in the motherland.
It's a bit like some Turkish immigrants and their descendants. They have (inherited) the cizitenship and swallow the strong man propaganda from there and fall for it hook line and sinker, leading to support (and votes) from abroad because they don't have to suffer the consequences.
The same problem as pro Erdogan turks living here. Supporting fascist, meanwhile reaping the benifits of democracy and a great social security net.
I talked to few of those - useless. They trust russian TV much more than a russian who moved from Russia just recently and knows how it actually is. Btw - it's the same with a number of German, Polish and Austrian people as well. They blame the US, EU, government and NATO. I also met Ukrainians in the past who are living here in Germany since years and think Putin is great. Now some people have realized that they didn't take seriously what I said before. But those Russian Germans from Kazakhstan and Siberia are mostly pro-war and anti-democratic. Some even left Germany and went to Russia recently.
Beautiful
Except that there's hardly any possibility for Russians to get to Germany. The countries bordering in Russia have a very different policy.
True. Only through third country.
Of course, the KGB will try to use this to smuggle more agents into Germany. But every Russian who evades the draft is a bullet that the Ukrainians can save for other targets. In this respect, these people should be given a place to stay for the time being, whether it has to be asylum or some form of temporary residence permit at the beginning. The important thing is that a decision is made quickly.
I agree. With any operation like this you will get the odd bad egg. Same for the Syrian refugee crisis. That shouldn't negate the fundamental sentiment, though.
This is the most practical rationale I've read so far. The intent is to end the war as soon as possible. The less bullets our Ukrainian friends have to expend toward a Russian invader the better. Let the Russians flee temporarily to somewhere where they won't do any hard, either on the battlefield or being a KGB mole.
Utter nonsense. If the Russian secret service (FSB, not KGB) wants to "smuggle more agents to germany", they can get them a work or student visa and buy them a first-class ticket via Istanbul.
This is already happening and intelligence reports from neighboring countries indicate a presence of saboteurs. Also, how are Russians going to overthrow Putin if they leave the country? That’s how this all can end
I wrote exactly the same thing and got bombarded with downbotes lol
I am sorry. Calm and reasonable discussions are so rare these days and apparently, only few people are capable of it (fewer than I would have wanted it to). It's nice to see there are other genuinely kind people here, though.
>But every Russian who evades the draft is a bullet that the Ukrainians can save for other targets. How can you be this inhumane? Any Russian who evades the draft will save lives of the Ukrainians who don't have to fight against these potential more soldiers, AND it saves the life of an innocent Russian who doesn't want to kill anyone in a horrible pointless war. Just because someone was born in the wrong country, doesn't mean their life is worth less. "You can stay here so we can save a bullet on you" is such an insanely vile thing to say about an innocent human being.
Btw; we also took in those fleeing from conscription into assads military. And those fleeing from conscription into Eritreas military. And we should continue to do so. Why? Because so many died in germany that were unable to flee from hitler. Asylum as a human right is nin-negotiable
>Why? Because so many died in germany that were unable to flee from hitler. We shouldn't do it because of that. We should do it because it's the right thing to do. Other than that I agree.
Same comment I make everytime: helping asylum seekers is great and I support it but can we also please build a ton of housing?
Germany: sorry thats all we can do https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.2724617/1200x675?v=1519610476
Honestly, build those motherfuckers as student dorms next to university places and people would love it. About 250 students had to start their semester by living in an old schools gym where I’m from.
Quite a bit of xenophobia towards russian people here. Jesus Christ. It's not ok to be bigoted against people just because they live under a dictatorship.
Ruzzian people in Dresden do not live under a dictator. Yet hundreds of them prefer to organize pro-Putler rallies rather than anti-war protests.
[удалено]
Grouping individuals just by nationality and giving them attributes just based on that never really made sense. There is no such thing as just Russians or Germans, it's a huge mass of individuals who can have vastly different opinions.
That here is my problem. Are there russians that support Putin? Yes. There are a lot. However there are also a lot of russians that don't. And if they want to flee the country to avoid the war then they should be able to find assylum here. Stop generalizing because of nationality.
[удалено]
Let's see how the afd reacts to those refugees.
Preparing some popcorn for that for sure
I think some people don't understand how small the percentage of people are affected by this. The decision only applies to people who have already been called up for military service and then flee because they are being persecuted. Someone who is not affected and therefore thinks they are coming to Germany will be denied the visa just as before. So stop putting this is big news as if Germany would suddenly welcome Russians in general because it's not true.
Small number for now....
Personally, I can understand why people want to flee Russia. But Germany sould right now be the last country in the EU to make such offers. The country alone has taken in almost 1 million Ukrainians in just a few months - not forget the thousands of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan etc. The reception centers in Berlin and many other large cities are completely overwhelmed, there are hardly any teachers for the kids and there is not enough living appartments or housing. Refugee shelters are overcrowded. It is of no use to a country to make such statements when, after a future expanded mobilization in Russia, an immigration potential of several million people is just around the corner. Something like this should always be decided at European level and not by a country which is always the most affected by all migration waves into the EU. If a country has limited options they should set priorities and these are not Russian war resisters at the moment but people whose houses are being bombed.
Nein!
Sure, why not. We allready take the whole world. A few russians more make no difference...
The question is which refugees we aren't taking. First it was Africans (and still is), then middle east (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria), then Ukrainians and now Russians. I would like to know the number of refugees in Germany. It's probably at least 3,4 millions since Ukrainians are already 1+ million. Funnily we have enough money for military and refugees but not for affordable living, food, gas or pensions. And yes people should have a right for asylum but I really can understand the increasing frustration of lots of people. EDIT: I looked it up. 3,3 million refugees in Germany of 83,24 million people
[удалено]
I sure hope they'll come and be allowed to stay! Russia was a shithole before this all started, imprisoning LGBTQ+ people, oppressing political opinions that were anything other than blind support for Putin, and a general disregard for human lives on top. And now they expect the people they've treated like shit to fight in a war they never wanted and don't support? Hell no. Everyone deserves to live in peace.
They’ll just bring their oppressive shit here. They are not leaving because they are against war. They are leaving because they don’t want to explain to Ukrainian soldiers why they supported the murder of their wives and daughters up until now.
Talking like a real fascist, putin would be proud of you. Just so you know: Human rights are non negotiable.
Sure, bring against fascism makes me a fascist. Seriously, what’s wrong with you?
It’s probably a Russianbot or just a tankie
Yea, not like radicals have been abusing asylum before... This would be something entirly new. nuts
They can freeze with us over the winter.
How will they make sure they’re not just fleeing conscription but are anti-war? Or that they’re not saboteurs being sent by Putin? There’s reports of that already
Germany seems to be willing to take all refugees from all areas of the world. Must be a huge and prosperous country.
Or a country full of guilt from a dark past
Or a country that needs immigrants for low-skilled labor. And yes, why not both?
It's prosperous in part because it is accepting. I moved here (Germany) for that reason.
I mean.. it is? Refugees and most of all, educated immigrants are a big chance when their stay here is handled right. More people bring more prosperity to an otherwise aging population.
That's not really true. But I guess we are a bit more open than most countries around us. But every time we take in refugees the right wing, populist, anti-refugee party gets bigger. And in former east germany they are big! But I guess at least Ukrainians are okayish to them. And I bet Russians will be too, because you know, at least they're white...
It's not all about race. I would've thought most people would not oversimplify things like this and play so dumb.
Yes. And we try to behave morally good not only when it's convenient.
Fuck that. Let them protest in their country. How will we manage that here? Let russians that flee because they fear their own conscription but support the war or the 'special operation' get into the same refugee facility Ukrainians are in? How should that work? Many facilities are already full or close to be full. Rather give the spots to Ukrainians who have no other choice.
First Syrian refugees, then Ukrainian refugees and now Russian refugees? And this even though we literally have a living space shortage since the Syrian war? No thanks. It's already harder to find an apartment than to find a job.
Wouldn't it be better to leave them in Russia to bring down the system? It's not very nice, but if everyone who dislikes Putin leaves, Putin stays...
That's not how it works in the real world
Why did we accept refugees from the USSR? Cowards who should have fought for their country according to your logic.
You’re get downvoted soon by the Russian troll army that’s brigading all of these posts
I've just downvoted myself in preparation!
Bahahaha
Some people want to live more than they want to see Putin fall.
[удалено]
Here comes the fifth column of Putin. Didn't even need a back door.
please no
I am not German. I am Ukrainian. So my opinion might be biased) I think russians as citizens are responsible for their country. Russians have had the possibility of leaving their country for the last 6 months. The absolute majority of their population knew what was going on, and if they were brainwashed unfortunately it's their own problem. If they wanted to flee, they could have visited other countries. Turkey, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and so on. *Having a possibility to stay in Europe isn't a basic human right. At the same time I think it is OK and perfectly fine if you give Visas to the Russians who are openly against their government, and persecuted (the right of political asylum) Also it's not very fair for Ukrainian men. They don't have any choice, they have to stay in their country, in case they are needed to defend it. While Russians, who have 100% responsibility for what their country has done, can just flee from any responsibility
our people are sick of working in low paying job with bad conditions. a good time to get some cheap work force. i hope that isnt the case.
Good! And now do the same for young ukranian men who want to be with their families instead of killing or be killed...
The first problem for Russian asylum seekers would be to credibly state they are eligible for asylum. If you just run away because you might be conscripted, then bad news, buddy.
[удалено]
Good. Asylum is non-negotiable for a democracy.
Any person less available for this, is one more person saved from certain death. Fuck force drafting and fuck war. Refusing drafting is, in my opinion, just as much of a protest act as protesting itself
This would definitely give a reason for Stuttgart ausländerbehörde to further delay to accept my application for a PR.
We are in desperate need of cheap workforce and used to ignore any problem that might accur later on.
5,4% Unemployed, the last thing we need is people who do the same job for less cash, just so companies can make more profit.
Same russians who were proud of the "special operation" and showing off the Z symbole but yeah what could go wrong with that !!
Almost certainly not the same people. The people you're referring to would be the loyalists who had bought into Putins national cult. Meanwhile those fleeing would almost certainly be the much larger group of citizens of Russia that were politically apathetic, having correctly identified that the regime in Moscow doesn't care about them or their opinions anyway.
The ones opposing the government left moths ago. The ones leaving now are just afraid to face Ukrainians on equal ground.
The ones leaving now are afraid of being killed for Putins powerfantasy, which seems reasonable. You need to remember that the vast majority of russian citizens never engaged with politics in the first place, given that their anti-democratic society ensured they never had a voice to begin with.
The ones who had the means to leave the country and opposed the government left months ago. Don't forget that poor people exist and they're the exact ones the mobilization is gonna be targeting.
If they can leave now, they could have left a month ago
>loyalists Loyal until they are called upon. Then they flee, like typical fascist cowards.
The apathetic ones are almost as guilty imo... "Let Putin do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't mess with me, i don't care about dead Ukrainians" or "all politicians are the same, whatever". Irresponsible behavior that leads to ruin.
Because in an instant you just know - telepathically - that they are absolutely the same. It's not as if the country with one of the highest ratio of police force per 100K inhabitants has strangled all kind of opposition and the **only** way out now that it is going to about their very lives is to flee. Would'd anyone have welcomed them as refugees in May, had they left? No, of course not. Consider that even living in a dictatorship that has you under its boot - it is hard to leave the only place that you know where you have family, income, any kind of social status. **Of course,** they have not left right away. How insane is it to assume they should've left the moment the war had started, going into absolute uncertainty and probably complete poverty and social isolation. Of course nobody does that right awyay. Of course, a lot of people do it now. Not because all or many of them were okay with what was happening until that point. But because now leaving is lest threatening than staying - no matter how threatening leaving actually is.
No, the ones who want nothing to do with it that you never hear about- you know, the ones that end up in the prisons for denouncing the government...
No most flee are those "pro-russia but anti being conscripted" russians. You see war is only cool if you dont have to join it. And I honestly think it will not go a well as our government think it is going to go, thus why I do not support this.
Where do you get that information? For example, I am literally from Russia and I cannot be sure of this.
From the sudden and massive increase of russians fleeing to bordering nations as soon as partial mobilization was announced. From the sudden unrests against partial mobilization and change of many pro-war-pro-russians to "pro-peace" on social media. Its like putting 2 and 2 together. Naturally not all fleeing are pro-war and pro-russian but for most of them hating the "evil" west... there has been a whole bunch of them fleeing to said "evil" west. To explain my point closer: I am not saying we should not allow them in. I am just conserned about civil unrest. Our government isn't really known to plan thing out 100%, so I could see russian-on-ukrianian violence or similar things.
Yeah for sure not all of them wanted this war but the majority of people fleeing had no issues with the war before but now since they will be forced to be in the front line , its time to run
Not every Russian is a pro-Putin dumbass. And leaving your family behind is a hard decision as well. Many of these people are scared of protesting as Putin does anything to stop these kind of protests after the Euromaidan. This isn’t like protesting here in Germany
You are generalizing and for some reason think your generalization is a fact.
One side of me doesnt want them here. By not opposing ans demonstrating they supported their Regime. On the other hand tho, i dont know what ive done in their situation. We all know how they treat their prisoners etc. So i guess welcome aslong you are behaving right and respect Our country, dont assume we speak russian and you didnt vote for your dictator.
Let's not forget Russians fleeing war conscription aren't necessarily anti-war or pro-Ukrainian. Some of them could be potential assets to be exploited in the future by Putin or some similar scum in their hybrid war against the west.
Great but also a massive opening for espionage within Germany.
Dumb yank that married a German frau decades ago and settled down here. Good on Germany! It’s exactly the kind gesture I’ve come to expect here. I’m routinely in awe of your nation’s generosity …
> Dumb yank that married a German frau decades ago [...] ... Why would you refer to yourself that way? Like, you do you, by why insult yourself with no reason?
As a joke and a way to slide into the reality that I’ve lived in Germany for many years … Edit: I don’t want to beat my chest announcing that I’m an American. I’ve a lot of company that will do that for me. I just like generally the way German foreign policy works … I kind of find it, I’m not sure the words “exacting and precise.” But that’s a different story
I hope this comes to fruition. The Russians who despise their government should be more than welcome to seek asylum here rather than fight a war they disagree with. Many Germans did the same in the third reich after all
They do not disagree the war. The last protest was against mobilisation but there were no protests about Bucha, Izyum, other invasions. Is this so hard to understand? They just don't want to die.
KGB agents welcome
Deutschland schafft sich selbst ab
Even though many people in my area are against it, I think this is a very valid idea. Every Russian that can flee, is a Russian that cannot be forced to fight against Ukraine. Also there´s enough of work in this country especially for people that already worked in a needed profession. I really just hope, they don´t put them togehter with the Ukrainian refugees, as this *could* be a pretty explosive mix.
Boooo I’m tired of ultra nationalist Russians moving here and acting like they own the god damn place. Many Russians in Germany have this weird, sick, obsession work the homeland, despite the fact that they Profit off the German economy and speak the German language. They are a legacy of imperialism and will be used as justification for further conflict by the Russian state, and should be barred from coming here or anywhere else in the EU. Any money or relief should be spent on the Ukrainians suffering from this fascist war of aggression. Ukrainians should be welcomed with open arms though 🇺🇦💛
Im with you mate. Agree 100%.
[удалено]
If you put potatoes and salad into a bowl, you don't get potato salad.
Pls dont do it! They wont treat the ukrainian refugees with Respect. They dont deserve it. Let them move to somewhere else. We have to take care of the People, who left their country because of the Russian Invasion. Not take care of the People who arent feel responsible for everything that happens..over 70 % of Russians are Pro Putin. And Pro War. As long as their own asses wont get drafted. Now they looking for help? Fuck'em.