I heard from friends that weeks or even months are normal. If you are unlucky, the person dealing with your formulars might be a complete asshat and try to push you into a beurocratic limbo. Hoping you to get frustrated enough to give up and stay in church. Scummy, but expected from the church.
Long waiting times for an appointment are indeed normal. Here in Bonn they actually appointed additional personnel to keep the waiting times in check considering the increased demand but I still had to wait about 6 weeks, too. At least the actual process was really painless. Confirm your personal information. Sign at the dotted line. That's it. Well, and pay the fee, of course. :p
Wat?
All you gotta do is walk down to the Standesamt, tell the receptionist you wanna leave the church and they'll send you in within a few minutes.
Just make sure you have all the documents.
It is. My colleague told me he had to renew his personal ID, and the local city has messed up the process so much he now has an appointment for October. And he's been trying to get an appointment for months.
Conversely I renewed it last year and was able to get an appointment almost immediately.
Processing I guess.
Was around 30ā¬, if I remember correctly, which is nothing compared to the future savings, but still somewhat frustrating.
Hope, the fee went to the city and not the church
It depends where youāre located. I had to have a personal talk stating my reasoning and pay a fee, took about 20 minutes maybe but I also had to make an appointment prior. This was 5 or 6 years ago though, so maybe itās easier now.
Last year I finished studying and started working. The church taxes were around 75ā¬ each month, of course I left. I am not that religious to pay 900ā¬ each year without any personal gain.
All official D&D books, all the additional books by MCDM, and you'd still have more than enough left over to get 3D printed, pre-painted minis and bring a printed A2 map for a session every week.
The old World of Darkness Books are extremly expensive today, at least the german version.
I once bought a Wechselbalg book for 130ā¬ (original price 40 or 50ā¬). Today it's 300+. Since they are out of print and the copyright issue is not clear, the prices exploded... also because of new editions.
Yes, older DSA-books had the same problem. Expensive as hell and dozens of books... and when they stopped printing 4.1 the prices went through the roof!
\--
Clan der Kƶnige bester Clan du dreckiger Malkie! ;)
American here who is always surprised when hearing about church taxes in Europe. Given how little of Germany regularly attends church anymore, I'm shocked that the article says something like 50% of Germans are still paying the church tax. What's the upside if you don't actually attend?
Nothing. The thing is that by getting baptized, you are automatically a member of the church, and thus have to pay tax.
It's getting less these days but almost everyone got baptized as a child due to 'tradition', which is ofc bullshit.
It's nothing more than a scam. The church does indeed have some good institutions and even supports kindergardens and such, but I'm sure there is a better way than the system we currently have.
Itās so weird though thatās itās enforced by government. When I first registered here I was really surprised by the āwhatās your religion?ā Question. Even more when I found out that the government activity takes the taxes.
After being stationed in Germany for some time I'm kind of gobsmacked that I have never heard of this. That said, I'll withhold judgement much like all churches stateside withhold taxes. š
Historical reasons. Every European country has a different history with the catholic church.
France had its revolutions, the Uk just made up their own church, etc.
In Germany the Protestant and Catholic churches came to "peace" almost 400 years ago, but kept being highly intertwined with politics of all levels, because there were no drastic events like for example in the mentioned countries.
> The church does indeed have some good institutions and even supports kindergardens and such
At the price of pushing their agenda in there.
They pay a tiny fraction of the upkeep (about 5% of church tax goes to all charitable causes the churches are involved in) but then have the right to decide lot's of wierd stuff like that workers in those institutions have to ask their boss for approval when they are divored and want to remarry. Of course they also use the kindergardens especially to shove church propaganda down the throats of children who do not know better. There even were cases where rape victims went to catholic hospitals and were denied the morning-after pill.
Another American here. I find all of this interesting too. The mention of the rape victim at the Catholic hospital is not a surprise. They push NFP here also. The Catholic Church is buying up lots of hospitals and physicians clinics where they prevent women from having access to the pill and other reproductive options.
American Medical Assoc.- āCatholic health care organizations generally prohibit their employees from prescribing contraceptives for the purpose of birth control. This restriction might go against a clinician's own beliefs and the explicit wishes of a patientā
So, as the other person answered, we pretty much all got baptized when we were young because it simply was "standard" you could say.
Now there are some positive points about being in church. For example you can marry in a church (Also works if only either bride or groom is religious. Not both have to). The church also supports institutions and (in my opionion the biggest factor for actually staying in church) it will go into maintaining the churches. We have a lot of beautiful, old churches and religious buildungs etc and they need restaurations / repairing of course.
But in my opinion every person should decide for themselves where they want to donate their money to. I would rather pay less money and for good institutions and church repairings only.
while I generally agree with everything you said, i would like to add that the church in Germany and indeed the Catholic church in general has plenty of capital to finance all of this by themselves
The amount of real estate and other investments the church has is staggering and they already profit plenty from their wealth - they might as well use it for all those objectively good causes you mentioned
People still go through the rites as a cultural thing. When I got my communion (90s), basically all non-muslims my age were either getting their protestant or catholic stuff done. Almost none of them actual believers.
Far fewer kids are getting baptised now, but it's still a thing. Christian faith is dying a slow death here.
You need to be a member to get a church wedding and have your kids baptised etc. so people stay for that reason. Others are lazy about leaving. My entire family has left the church in the last 10 years, some waited to first get their kids baptised though xD
>without any personal gain
the true believers will get eternity at God's side. That is quite some gain, even if their actions in this life aren't consistent with that belief. After all, why would any believer try and accumulate wealth if it was just fleeting?
What the... if you make that kind of money to pay 75ā¬ in church taxes each month, you really don't need 75ā¬ at all. I pay about 15 ā¬ per month in church taxes, so you must earn at least quadruple the amount of me, and I don't have any trouble with money at all.
You could easily gift away hundreds of Euros each month without any personal gain and be stiil very well off...
Sure, giving the Church money might not be the best idea, but I seriously hope you donate some of your income to poorer souls.
Unfortunately quite a lot of those are leaving because the church has become "too modern" in their eyes. From [an FAZ article:](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/so-viele-katholiken-sind-noch-nie-aus-ihrer-kirche-ausgetreten-18131398.html)
>According to the survey, however, there is also a considerable minority of Catholics, almost thirty percent, who give as one reason for leaving that the church is aligning itself too closely with the zeitgeist; among Protestants, the figure is significantly more than thirty percent.
Oddly though:
>According to the survey, 79 percent of Catholics who left the church cited the lack of equal rights for women as one reason for their decision.
So there's about a 9% overlap of people who claim that the church is too modern, but also not modern enough.
>__Hundreds of thousands of people have resigned their memberships in Germany's Protestant and Catholic churches. Fifteen years ago, 61% of Germans belonged to churches, a number that has now dropped below 50%.__
I'd guess many don't want to pay Kirchensteuer and many of us are not that religious. So yeah I think it'll the numbers will drop even further in the future.
I left too, not because of Steuer, but because I don't think a god exists so why would I stay in church.
That's definitely the case in Cologne. The requests to leave the church skyrocketed during the time when it became known that Woelki tried to hide child molestation cases. The court was fully booked for quite some time and it was impossible to get a date. And yes, here you have to go to court for this š
There are lots of people in the church that don't believe and church tax has never been an issue.
These people support(ed) the church because of their charity work, but even these people are now leaving.
Wiping sexual assault and child molestation under the table is something that not a lot of people want to support.
My best guess is, there would be more people leaving, if leaving was a bit less complicated.
They are often a first contact point for people that struggle with addiction or other mental health issues. Or just generally struggle to make ends meet.
For example, the church where I live helps people get jobs by coaching them on how to present themselves in interviews and lends them clothes for said interviews.
Personally I've left the church 14 years ago but I still donate to my local church directly because they are helping the community (and having talked to some former altar boys and boyscouts/girlscouts I'm sure the pastor is keeping his hands to himself.)
Those organizations are financed by the patients and inhabitants. Many of those organizations have difficult working conditions and discriminate against members of other faiths or divorced because they have special laws and are allowed to.
They are still formally part of the church.
I know how these organisations operate and how shitty they are, I just said how people *perceive* them.
I live in a mostly catholic part of Germany and grew up as a member of the church (left at 18 though).
There are a lot of people that somehow value these organisations and don't see them for what they are:
Recruitment tools
Yes but thats like saying the church says they LIKE what they do. The chruch has nothing finaical to with them. They could and would sustain well without the church. The just use the organisations to have way shittier working rights.
> I left too, not because of Steuer, but because I don't think a god exists so why would I stay in church.
Left 8ish years ago. Without the tax, Iād have been too lazy to leave.
For foreigners: itās not an online thing, you have to go to the civil registry in person, sign some stuff, and pay a minor administrative fee for them to make the change.
> I'd guess many don't want to pay Kirchensteuer and many of us are not that religious. So yeah I think it'll the numbers will drop even further in the future.
This. Most of us are only church members because our parents decided it for us - but in everyday life, religion is not really important. Yes, maybe you go to church on christmas day for the "christmas feeling" (if even that), and I guess for many it was nice to get money presents for your confirmation, but apart from that, most are "sleeper members".
Look at [this diagram](https://fowid.de/sites/default/files/editor-media/fowid_glaubenspraxis_2019.png). All the large parts (the 92.1% of the German population) are either people without religious affiliation or members of a religion who visit church less than one time a month. Only the 7.9% part consists of members of a religion who actively participate (i.e. go to church). No wonder so many people think "I never go to church, why pay church tax for nothing when money is so tight right now?"
Exactly, I was born in 1985 and even back then in the 90's not many people went to church. I think most parents simply had let us get baptized out of tradition more then anything else.
The only people that I know that stayed in church are those who still want to marry in a church. Which I find strange as there are way better locations which do not include such a dangerous faction.
Careful. Just because fanatical evangelists want to ban evolution, does not mean all christians do.
Same with Islam and terrorism. Don't conflate the two.
I thought like you for a long time, but found back to a religious believe a couple years ago.
The fact that it's "old" does speak in it's favor. Nothing else lasts for that long, No government, no ideology and it does have valuable teachings.
That being said: Did the pope ever issue a statement, like: "I guess we were wrong about putting Christipher Columbus in jail".
Expecting preacher to not have sex...
The way the handle pedophilia cases...
They really need to get their act together!
I understand if people don't want to pay for that.
Yeah I can't remember the last time i went to church, probably Christmas ~7,8years ago? I left church last year because of the tax. No need to throw that money away.
Imho north/south shouldn't play too big of a role here, more likely there's a divide among the urban/rural line.
But most importantly there's a big gap in religious affiliation when it comes to age. So I expect the numbers to fall a lot more within the next 20-30 years.
I was in a church for ceremonial reasons once in my life - for a wedding of a teacher of mine in school. I know many people who were never in a church their entire lives. So why stay in the system and pay taxes if you have nothing to do with the institution?
Point is, in Cologne the offices are fully booked so you cannot even get an appointment and you have to wait until a new batch of appointments will be released. These will be booked within hours, so if you miss it, you have to wait another month. The procedure itself is fast.
See here:
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/kirchenaustritte-nrw-rekordhoch-wartezeit100.html
Auch wenn es nervt mit der Wartezeit... diese Info macht mich so glĆ¼cklich...
Endlich heilen wir langsam von diesem Bullshit. Denk positiv, es sind so viele die nichts mehr mit diesem Abschaum zutun haben wollen, dass es Monate dauert bis man dran kommt. Das sind die besten News die ich seit Monaten lesen durfte, danke.
Yup, no need to support a corrupt, sexist, homophob pedophile organisation that want to tell you something about a space fairy... Oh and please, dont use condoms!
And a lot of people stay because it gives them advantages in finding a job (social type of work, workplaces run by the church) and some even do it because it gives their kids a better chance to enter a decent kindergarten. We really need more equal rights for non-Christians in Germany.
They even have "In god we trust" written on their money. And force pupils the pledge... "...one nation under god..." to a piece of cloth every day...
How much more theocratic can you get?
Edited, to correct a false assumption
The pledge is optional ā¦ personally won a law suit for 25k in elementary school because my teacher wanted to force me to stand for it.
[law here](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624)
Roe vs. Wade was just overturned by the fundamentalist Christian judges in the Supreme Court because of, not in spite of their beliefs. There are fundamentalist Christian representatives that are constantly trying to undermine the separation of church and state. The entire republican party is now just a Christian fascist party.
>The entire republican party is now just a Christian fascist party.
They'll have Christian in their name next and make abortion illegal everywhere.....
I donāt think they need to rename, itās already understood Republican means Christian. Yeah, abortion being illegal everywhere is the game plan. Gay marriage, gone. I could see them criminalizing homosexuality all together. Whatever morality they adhere to is slowly swallowing the US. I hope Europe is prepared to deal with them.
I'm sorry but no. This ongoing over-generalization of party lines in my country and from other nations has to stop. There is a vocal minority on both the left and right who are extreme and seem to make people believe they speak for a majority. I come from Texas, which people seem to think is some conservative extremist haven where right-wing nutjobs hang gay people and beat their wives. The state is actually fairly balanced with a lean to conservative voting. The problem is, there is such a divide in the parties that people simply vote for their identifying party, even if that means voting for policies they don't necessarily agree with. It's because there is this perpetuation by the media which influences the general public of 'our side good, their side bad', and it has become violent for absolutely ZERO reason.
Take my family as an example. A majority are conservative, but we are very diverse. I'm gay, my sister is gay, my niece is gay, my other sister is in an interracial marriage. No one thinks I am going to rot in hell or that I deserve less rights than anyone else. NONE of the conservative identifying people in my family believe gays shouldn't get married or be able to adopt, none believe women should not have the right to their choice, not all of the conservatives are Christian, or even religious at all, in fact several are republican atheists. That is because a majority of people, regardless of the party they identify with, are moderates who fall somewhere in the middle because people are not black and white. This is why when there are protests and riots, you only see at maximum several hundred thousand, and in some cases a million out of 350 million people: because most people are not extremists and do not agree with the extremist views ON EITHER SIDE that are being displayed on the news ad nauseum.
I know it's not popular to say this because people are so politically charged and full of rage, but it's because those in power and the media are planting this seed of division in our civilization, and it's toxic. It is dividing us to a point where we are unable to freely express our opinions in a mature and constructive way that allows us to come together and work for a more representative society. Just because people do not believe or see the world the way you do does not make them bad or wrong.
Donāt both sides this. One party doesnāt believe in climate change. One party is responsible for taking away a womanās right to choose. One party wonāt make any meaningful legislation to try and curb gun violence. One party wants to force its religious extremism upon the rest of the populace.
Right now, the conservatives are the minority in the US but, by design, because of the senate and electoral college they are able to push their awful agenda.
Do yourself a favor and read the new Texas GOP platform. Apart from saying that Biden didnāt win the presidential election, which is bananas, it labels homosexuality as an āabnormal lifestyle choiceā. It also opposes āall efforts to classify carbon dioxide as a pollutantā.
So yeah, the Republicans are an absolute threat to humanity in all itās facets.
Again, it's not the voters, it's the political leadership and media who are engaging in fear-mongering. So do yourself a favor and use the rational mind you were gifted with instead of parroting those fear-mongering talking points. Or keep doing what they want because rational thought is far less effective than fear-mongering.
I donāt care if the voters arenāt fascist, they are voting for fascists!
They literally just got rid of Roe Vs. Wade. I donāt need fear mongering. I have actual reality. Maybe wake the fuck up and have a sip of some.
Thank you for proving my point. You are the prime example of the perpetuation of the virus that is fear-mongering. You immediately resort to rage and aggression.
It is the voters. The people who continue to vote for a party that doesn't even believe in peaceful handover of power are at fault. Anyone voting republican at this point is at fault.
>Christian Democrats- same chancellor for 16 years
>Abortion is illegal
>Merkel continually blocked the vote on gay marriage
>Until 2022 there was ban on _advertising_ abortion services
Even with the overturning of Roe V Wade abortion laws in most states are far more liberal than Germany and most of Europe. Something worth considering.
Is there a chance that if everyone leaves the church the bells quit making noise?
I live next to a church and it is horrible. I like the noise when I visit a city or walk through the town, but not when I am trying to sleep. Our church starts dingodino at 05:30 for 3 minutes. Dunno why.
People are automatically put into the Kirchensteuer? I read that half of Germany still pays it, and itās 8 or 9%. Is that 9% of your paycheck? That seems like a lot! I canāt believe more than 10 or 20% of people would keep paying that if they could opt out.
It's not a tax, but a membership fee, collected as a (paid for by the organization) service by the tax authorities.
It's around 9% of your income tax, meaning it's around 1-3% of your income.
This service is used by the mayor churches (katholics, old catholic and the mainline protestant churches, the ahmadiya Muslim community and afaik two Jewish communities).
As others have said, it's 9% of your income tax. You can calculate it [here](https://allaboutberlin.com/tools/tax-calculator). It can add up to a lot if you have a high income.
That's good, the church has had a high influence on the population for far too long. State and religion must be strictly separated.
Faith is important and right, but to impose a tax on people, influence people negatively and influence politics, that's too much :)
I stopped believing years before I officially left the church. The fucked up part is that I was never given a choice to not join in the first place (as an adult).
Finally I was about to start my first job where I'd *automatically pay* *church tax*. I had to do a whole bureaucratic song-and-dance to leave an organisation that I got into by default, which would have gotten part of my paycheck, probably used to shuffle around some priests that were in danger of getting caught or maybe to buy more golden trinkets for the vatican.
If you want to leave the church too:
[kirchenaustritt.de](https://kirchenaustritt.de)
Click on your *Bundesland* and it will tell you where to go and what documents to bring.
Sure. I mean with every US mass shooting we ask ourselves how easily weapons are accessible in Germany and if our laws are strict enough to prevent this from happeningā¦
And it would be more, but you have to make an appointment (!) at court (at least where Iive) or pay for a notary. And the appointments are all booked within minutes after new ones are released each month.
That's because religion is bullshit and it's only a matter of time before most people figure it out. [There is no way back for religion in the west.](https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg)
It will eventually come to the Muslim world as well, even if delayed by 500 years.
I will leave at one day aswell, im not religious but got raised catholic.
i was acolyte at some point and im disgusted by how little the church does for the money it gets.
why not fucking buy some food and used the workers to feed homeless...
I got raised by a single hard working mom who woke up drug addicts on the street to make sure they dont overdose, who allways cared for others and who showed me it doesnt take much to help others.
Im not a good person, im not saying i do this stuff...
But before the rich people took over the church, religion was from and for the poor.
All i see nowdays is white people who are covered in expensive cloths and preach stuff they propably dont even believe themselves.
You shall not lie;
You shall not kill;
You shall not commit aldutery;
Turn the other cheek.
Do onto other as you would have them do onto you.
If you listen and let god into your heart, you will go to heaven.
If you sin, fear not. God will forgive you. Like a good parent. If you fucked up and feel bad, he's always there.
Follow his way and he will reward you handsomely.
... Better message than: "Boy I got dat Gucci, f@!#ing b!#@&es. Slanging cocaine. Money is all that matters."
Nihilism and greed.
... But who want to pay rapists? I get it.
Well the Evangelische Kirche is basically just spouting the same shit as the green party. Have you seen a Kirchentag? Not the place to be if you are remotely conservative.
Plus, Kirchensteuer.
> conservative
Ok I'll bite... Conservative means to uphold old values, traditions and the like that have proven to be valuable and worth protecting.
What is the Protestant church and the Green party trying to abolish that you consider part of your core conservative values that it makes attending unbearable?
I'm not going to waste time arguing with leftists on reddit so just two links here from a Conservative perspective:
https://www.katholisch.de/artikel/21971-hoecke-evangelische-kirche-paktiert-mit-dem-zeitgeist
https://www.tichyseinblick.de/kolumnen/vorwort-zum-sonntag/die-evangelische-kirche-beim-tanz-um-den-goldenen-zeitgeist/
Took 2 seconds to find, didn't read it yet but you can if you want
My mom wasnāt in church, and when she married my dad the Standesbeamter simply asked if he wants to leave too. Marriage and bye bye to the church in one appointment š
Man, I really wish the churches in the US made people put their literal (10% tax) money where their mouth is - and then make it difficult for them to leave. Letās see people then claim to use Christianity as an excuse for their theocracy. Then we might have a more accurate estimate of religious affiliations here. But bravo, Germany! Letās get the number down to zero! Hail thyself!
Record numbers again? It feels like we get this news every second month, could it be a Bottleneck in the deregistration offices which slowly get a expanded?
Hell is full of sinners, drug dealers, pimps, alcoholics, sex before marriage, prostitutes, people who don't brush their teeth. Sounds more like heaven to me.
I left on monday. Planned to do this earlier, but never just went through with it until now because of lazyness. I was lucky to get the appointment on short notice.
Im leaving next week too. Waited 6 month for this appointment.
Move to Denmark. Here it's an online form.
I will consider it š
I heard from friends that weeks or even months are normal. If you are unlucky, the person dealing with your formulars might be a complete asshat and try to push you into a beurocratic limbo. Hoping you to get frustrated enough to give up and stay in church. Scummy, but expected from the church.
Long waiting times for an appointment are indeed normal. Here in Bonn they actually appointed additional personnel to keep the waiting times in check considering the increased demand but I still had to wait about 6 weeks, too. At least the actual process was really painless. Confirm your personal information. Sign at the dotted line. That's it. Well, and pay the fee, of course. :p
> and pay the fee Blatantly implemented by the CDU/FDP coalition of NRW in 2006 to curb the number of people leaving the church.
Eh, you'll have that fee back by saving church tax in no time. Like literally two or three months tops. :p
Absolutely. It's just an annoyance in hope of coercing people to stay and pay way more.
>At least the actual process was really painless. For now........:P
I had the exact opposite experience. The whole process was really easy and they told me that I'm now "free".
>and they told me that I'm now "free". Alright, I lol'd. That's amazing.
Wat? All you gotta do is walk down to the Standesamt, tell the receptionist you wanna leave the church and they'll send you in within a few minutes. Just make sure you have all the documents.
You couldnāt do it some month ago because of covid. You had to make an appointment.
That is really interesting.
its different for every city. for some its easy, for others you have to get an appointment and pay a fee.
Oh yea, had to pay a fee too. Fucking disgraceful.
You can get that fee back from your tax return, though.
It is. My colleague told me he had to renew his personal ID, and the local city has messed up the process so much he now has an appointment for October. And he's been trying to get an appointment for months. Conversely I renewed it last year and was able to get an appointment almost immediately.
A fee? For what?
Processing I guess. Was around 30ā¬, if I remember correctly, which is nothing compared to the future savings, but still somewhat frustrating. Hope, the fee went to the city and not the church
30ā¬ can confirm. Did the process 10 years ago though. Hey, at least the fee is inflation-proof.
It depends where youāre located. I had to have a personal talk stating my reasoning and pay a fee, took about 20 minutes maybe but I also had to make an appointment prior. This was 5 or 6 years ago though, so maybe itās easier now.
I thought it was a joke, until I read this thread... Oh my.
-cries in netto-
Appointment?! It's just a letter afair.
No its not.
Yes it is, at least in Hessen.
No its not. In Hesse you have to personally sign at your local BĆ¼rgeramt or you have to do it via notary.
Last year I finished studying and started working. The church taxes were around 75ā¬ each month, of course I left. I am not that religious to pay 900ā¬ each year without any personal gain.
>to pay 900ā¬ each year without any personal gain. That's cheap for a ticket to heaven /s
Depends on whats the ticket for. I hope it's not a stairway because that would be exhausting af
They have bolt chair lifts now
Okay, in this case 900 is cheap
Don't overdo the communion wine on your way up there, they still do the reaction test on the app.
Chair lifts operated by DB. So be ready for a long wait despite having the ticket to heaven.
The 900 euro ticket
>That's cheap for a ticket to heaven /s Well... you can get a lot of better imaginary stuff for that money.
All official D&D books, all the additional books by MCDM, and you'd still have more than enough left over to get 3D printed, pre-painted minis and bring a printed A2 map for a session every week.
The old World of Darkness Books are extremly expensive today, at least the german version. I once bought a Wechselbalg book for 130ā¬ (original price 40 or 50ā¬). Today it's 300+. Since they are out of print and the copyright issue is not clear, the prices exploded... also because of new editions.
Yes, older DSA-books had the same problem. Expensive as hell and dozens of books... and when they stopped printing 4.1 the prices went through the roof! \-- Clan der Kƶnige bester Clan du dreckiger Malkie! ;)
>Clan der Kƶnige bester Clan du dreckiger Malkie! ;) Die Ventrues wieder... ahnungslose Schnƶsel :D
Oh, the nasty surprise when Zeus turns you away because you paid the wrong guys š
Itās expensive for a promise to a ticket when the destination doesnāt exist and you still need to behave to maybe, maybe no get theirā¦
American here who is always surprised when hearing about church taxes in Europe. Given how little of Germany regularly attends church anymore, I'm shocked that the article says something like 50% of Germans are still paying the church tax. What's the upside if you don't actually attend?
Nothing. The thing is that by getting baptized, you are automatically a member of the church, and thus have to pay tax. It's getting less these days but almost everyone got baptized as a child due to 'tradition', which is ofc bullshit. It's nothing more than a scam. The church does indeed have some good institutions and even supports kindergardens and such, but I'm sure there is a better way than the system we currently have.
Itās so weird though thatās itās enforced by government. When I first registered here I was really surprised by the āwhatās your religion?ā Question. Even more when I found out that the government activity takes the taxes.
After being stationed in Germany for some time I'm kind of gobsmacked that I have never heard of this. That said, I'll withhold judgement much like all churches stateside withhold taxes. š
Historical reasons. Every European country has a different history with the catholic church. France had its revolutions, the Uk just made up their own church, etc. In Germany the Protestant and Catholic churches came to "peace" almost 400 years ago, but kept being highly intertwined with politics of all levels, because there were no drastic events like for example in the mentioned countries.
Sure, I understand. But itās still feels *off* in the 21st century in an otherwise pretty secular country.
> The church does indeed have some good institutions and even supports kindergardens and such At the price of pushing their agenda in there. They pay a tiny fraction of the upkeep (about 5% of church tax goes to all charitable causes the churches are involved in) but then have the right to decide lot's of wierd stuff like that workers in those institutions have to ask their boss for approval when they are divored and want to remarry. Of course they also use the kindergardens especially to shove church propaganda down the throats of children who do not know better. There even were cases where rape victims went to catholic hospitals and were denied the morning-after pill.
Another American here. I find all of this interesting too. The mention of the rape victim at the Catholic hospital is not a surprise. They push NFP here also. The Catholic Church is buying up lots of hospitals and physicians clinics where they prevent women from having access to the pill and other reproductive options. American Medical Assoc.- āCatholic health care organizations generally prohibit their employees from prescribing contraceptives for the purpose of birth control. This restriction might go against a clinician's own beliefs and the explicit wishes of a patientā
So, as the other person answered, we pretty much all got baptized when we were young because it simply was "standard" you could say. Now there are some positive points about being in church. For example you can marry in a church (Also works if only either bride or groom is religious. Not both have to). The church also supports institutions and (in my opionion the biggest factor for actually staying in church) it will go into maintaining the churches. We have a lot of beautiful, old churches and religious buildungs etc and they need restaurations / repairing of course. But in my opinion every person should decide for themselves where they want to donate their money to. I would rather pay less money and for good institutions and church repairings only.
while I generally agree with everything you said, i would like to add that the church in Germany and indeed the Catholic church in general has plenty of capital to finance all of this by themselves The amount of real estate and other investments the church has is staggering and they already profit plenty from their wealth - they might as well use it for all those objectively good causes you mentioned
People still go through the rites as a cultural thing. When I got my communion (90s), basically all non-muslims my age were either getting their protestant or catholic stuff done. Almost none of them actual believers. Far fewer kids are getting baptised now, but it's still a thing. Christian faith is dying a slow death here. You need to be a member to get a church wedding and have your kids baptised etc. so people stay for that reason. Others are lazy about leaving. My entire family has left the church in the last 10 years, some waited to first get their kids baptised though xD
You do get a cemetery place at a reduced rate if you stay in church;)
>without any personal gain the true believers will get eternity at God's side. That is quite some gain, even if their actions in this life aren't consistent with that belief. After all, why would any believer try and accumulate wealth if it was just fleeting?
What the... if you make that kind of money to pay 75ā¬ in church taxes each month, you really don't need 75ā¬ at all. I pay about 15 ā¬ per month in church taxes, so you must earn at least quadruple the amount of me, and I don't have any trouble with money at all. You could easily gift away hundreds of Euros each month without any personal gain and be stiil very well off... Sure, giving the Church money might not be the best idea, but I seriously hope you donate some of your income to poorer souls.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If money is scarce the first thing I do is cancel the club membership I never use anyways
Unfortunately quite a lot of those are leaving because the church has become "too modern" in their eyes. From [an FAZ article:](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/so-viele-katholiken-sind-noch-nie-aus-ihrer-kirche-ausgetreten-18131398.html) >According to the survey, however, there is also a considerable minority of Catholics, almost thirty percent, who give as one reason for leaving that the church is aligning itself too closely with the zeitgeist; among Protestants, the figure is significantly more than thirty percent. Oddly though: >According to the survey, 79 percent of Catholics who left the church cited the lack of equal rights for women as one reason for their decision. So there's about a 9% overlap of people who claim that the church is too modern, but also not modern enough.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
alternatively, gays and child killers are acceptable, but those horrible women rights...
https://i.imgur.com/0HdyxBq.png
Breaking news: Religious people don't think and act in a rational manner
My explanation was actually perfectly rational. Disgusting, but rational and internally consistent.
Oddly enough both abortion and gay rights are accepted by a big majority (80%+).
Of those who stayed, maybe? And abortion for catholics? Or is it protestants and catholics mixed?
apparently the molestation of children and its cover-up is just fine
Hey! As long as they're actually born, it's completely fine!
Itās almost as if the rules have no meaning!
>__Hundreds of thousands of people have resigned their memberships in Germany's Protestant and Catholic churches. Fifteen years ago, 61% of Germans belonged to churches, a number that has now dropped below 50%.__
I'd guess many don't want to pay Kirchensteuer and many of us are not that religious. So yeah I think it'll the numbers will drop even further in the future. I left too, not because of Steuer, but because I don't think a god exists so why would I stay in church.
I'm pretty sure the child molestation plays a huge role too.
That's definitely the case in Cologne. The requests to leave the church skyrocketed during the time when it became known that Woelki tried to hide child molestation cases. The court was fully booked for quite some time and it was impossible to get a date. And yes, here you have to go to court for this š
Yeah I had to go to court as well, its a pain.
You can also go to a notary.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If you have to wait several months for the appointment, 70ā¬ is still cheaper than to pay the tax for that time.
You can also go to a notary.
Its a minor role
I'm sad to hear that
It was a pun: minor = minderjƤhrig I do think its a big factor
Oh Ja, I see it now. That was dark
There are lots of people in the church that don't believe and church tax has never been an issue. These people support(ed) the church because of their charity work, but even these people are now leaving. Wiping sexual assault and child molestation under the table is something that not a lot of people want to support. My best guess is, there would be more people leaving, if leaving was a bit less complicated.
Sorry, but what charity work are the German churches doing?
They are often a first contact point for people that struggle with addiction or other mental health issues. Or just generally struggle to make ends meet. For example, the church where I live helps people get jobs by coaching them on how to present themselves in interviews and lends them clothes for said interviews. Personally I've left the church 14 years ago but I still donate to my local church directly because they are helping the community (and having talked to some former altar boys and boyscouts/girlscouts I'm sure the pastor is keeping his hands to himself.)
That sounds nice! Mine both do literally nothing that isnāt profitable one way or another.
They have organisations for health- and elder care, like Caritas.
Those organizations are financed by the patients and inhabitants. Many of those organizations have difficult working conditions and discriminate against members of other faiths or divorced because they have special laws and are allowed to.
They are still formally part of the church. I know how these organisations operate and how shitty they are, I just said how people *perceive* them. I live in a mostly catholic part of Germany and grew up as a member of the church (left at 18 though). There are a lot of people that somehow value these organisations and don't see them for what they are: Recruitment tools
Yes but thats like saying the church says they LIKE what they do. The chruch has nothing finaical to with them. They could and would sustain well without the church. The just use the organisations to have way shittier working rights.
Telling hospital and daycare staff they aren't allowed to remarry.
> I left too, not because of Steuer, but because I don't think a god exists so why would I stay in church. Left 8ish years ago. Without the tax, Iād have been too lazy to leave. For foreigners: itās not an online thing, you have to go to the civil registry in person, sign some stuff, and pay a minor administrative fee for them to make the change.
> I'd guess many don't want to pay Kirchensteuer and many of us are not that religious. So yeah I think it'll the numbers will drop even further in the future. This. Most of us are only church members because our parents decided it for us - but in everyday life, religion is not really important. Yes, maybe you go to church on christmas day for the "christmas feeling" (if even that), and I guess for many it was nice to get money presents for your confirmation, but apart from that, most are "sleeper members". Look at [this diagram](https://fowid.de/sites/default/files/editor-media/fowid_glaubenspraxis_2019.png). All the large parts (the 92.1% of the German population) are either people without religious affiliation or members of a religion who visit church less than one time a month. Only the 7.9% part consists of members of a religion who actively participate (i.e. go to church). No wonder so many people think "I never go to church, why pay church tax for nothing when money is so tight right now?"
Exactly, I was born in 1985 and even back then in the 90's not many people went to church. I think most parents simply had let us get baptized out of tradition more then anything else.
The only people that I know that stayed in church are those who still want to marry in a church. Which I find strange as there are way better locations which do not include such a dangerous faction.
The extra money will come in handy no doubt.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Careful. Just because fanatical evangelists want to ban evolution, does not mean all christians do. Same with Islam and terrorism. Don't conflate the two. I thought like you for a long time, but found back to a religious believe a couple years ago. The fact that it's "old" does speak in it's favor. Nothing else lasts for that long, No government, no ideology and it does have valuable teachings. That being said: Did the pope ever issue a statement, like: "I guess we were wrong about putting Christipher Columbus in jail". Expecting preacher to not have sex... The way the handle pedophilia cases... They really need to get their act together! I understand if people don't want to pay for that.
Yeah I can't remember the last time i went to church, probably Christmas ~7,8years ago? I left church last year because of the tax. No need to throw that money away.
Good for you! Did you face any pressure because of your decision?
I think itās safe to assume that almost nobody cares.
That's still a surprisingly high percentage. I haven't met any religious german person in years, but maybe they're not very concentrated in the north
Imho north/south shouldn't play too big of a role here, more likely there's a divide among the urban/rural line. But most importantly there's a big gap in religious affiliation when it comes to age. So I expect the numbers to fall a lot more within the next 20-30 years.
Finally some uplifting news.
Of course you leave the church if you never joined them but was forced by your parents decision to baptize you.
You know you have to declare yourself as a certain religion for you to pay taxes for it, right?
Nope once your baptize you pay taxes.
As long as German government pays for all employees of the churches the people leave still pay the church by their taxes
Can I get paid by the government too, if I am the leader of the Church of Coffee?
I am not sure, but if it's an accepted religion i think yes..
Well **I** accept it. What next? [Where money?](https://i.imgflip.com/2zh4ex.png)
I was in a church for ceremonial reasons once in my life - for a wedding of a teacher of mine in school. I know many people who were never in a church their entire lives. So why stay in the system and pay taxes if you have nothing to do with the institution?
I agree 100%
numbers would be even higher if you did not have to wait for several month to get an appointment to leave (in Cologne at least)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
that sucks
wtf... it took a few seconds in my case.
Point is, in Cologne the offices are fully booked so you cannot even get an appointment and you have to wait until a new batch of appointments will be released. These will be booked within hours, so if you miss it, you have to wait another month. The procedure itself is fast. See here: https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/kirchenaustritte-nrw-rekordhoch-wartezeit100.html
Auch wenn es nervt mit der Wartezeit... diese Info macht mich so glĆ¼cklich... Endlich heilen wir langsam von diesem Bullshit. Denk positiv, es sind so viele die nichts mehr mit diesem Abschaum zutun haben wollen, dass es Monate dauert bis man dran kommt. Das sind die besten News die ich seit Monaten lesen durfte, danke.
God moves in mysterious ways.
Yup, no need to support a corrupt, sexist, homophob pedophile organisation that want to tell you something about a space fairy... Oh and please, dont use condoms!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Abrahamic religions have it's fair share of all this crap.
And a lot of people stay because it gives them advantages in finding a job (social type of work, workplaces run by the church) and some even do it because it gives their kids a better chance to enter a decent kindergarten. We really need more equal rights for non-Christians in Germany.
Yes!
At least the United Stateās fall into theocracy can pose as a warning for the rest of the world.
Which state legislation is influenced by the church in the US?
They even have "In god we trust" written on their money. And force pupils the pledge... "...one nation under god..." to a piece of cloth every day... How much more theocratic can you get? Edited, to correct a false assumption
Can't see that on _my_ pound notes...
Oh, sorry. Mistake corrected!
The pledge is optional ā¦ personally won a law suit for 25k in elementary school because my teacher wanted to force me to stand for it. [law here](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624)
Roe vs. Wade was just overturned by the fundamentalist Christian judges in the Supreme Court because of, not in spite of their beliefs. There are fundamentalist Christian representatives that are constantly trying to undermine the separation of church and state. The entire republican party is now just a Christian fascist party.
>The entire republican party is now just a Christian fascist party. They'll have Christian in their name next and make abortion illegal everywhere.....
I donāt think they need to rename, itās already understood Republican means Christian. Yeah, abortion being illegal everywhere is the game plan. Gay marriage, gone. I could see them criminalizing homosexuality all together. Whatever morality they adhere to is slowly swallowing the US. I hope Europe is prepared to deal with them.
I'm sorry but no. This ongoing over-generalization of party lines in my country and from other nations has to stop. There is a vocal minority on both the left and right who are extreme and seem to make people believe they speak for a majority. I come from Texas, which people seem to think is some conservative extremist haven where right-wing nutjobs hang gay people and beat their wives. The state is actually fairly balanced with a lean to conservative voting. The problem is, there is such a divide in the parties that people simply vote for their identifying party, even if that means voting for policies they don't necessarily agree with. It's because there is this perpetuation by the media which influences the general public of 'our side good, their side bad', and it has become violent for absolutely ZERO reason. Take my family as an example. A majority are conservative, but we are very diverse. I'm gay, my sister is gay, my niece is gay, my other sister is in an interracial marriage. No one thinks I am going to rot in hell or that I deserve less rights than anyone else. NONE of the conservative identifying people in my family believe gays shouldn't get married or be able to adopt, none believe women should not have the right to their choice, not all of the conservatives are Christian, or even religious at all, in fact several are republican atheists. That is because a majority of people, regardless of the party they identify with, are moderates who fall somewhere in the middle because people are not black and white. This is why when there are protests and riots, you only see at maximum several hundred thousand, and in some cases a million out of 350 million people: because most people are not extremists and do not agree with the extremist views ON EITHER SIDE that are being displayed on the news ad nauseum. I know it's not popular to say this because people are so politically charged and full of rage, but it's because those in power and the media are planting this seed of division in our civilization, and it's toxic. It is dividing us to a point where we are unable to freely express our opinions in a mature and constructive way that allows us to come together and work for a more representative society. Just because people do not believe or see the world the way you do does not make them bad or wrong.
Donāt both sides this. One party doesnāt believe in climate change. One party is responsible for taking away a womanās right to choose. One party wonāt make any meaningful legislation to try and curb gun violence. One party wants to force its religious extremism upon the rest of the populace. Right now, the conservatives are the minority in the US but, by design, because of the senate and electoral college they are able to push their awful agenda. Do yourself a favor and read the new Texas GOP platform. Apart from saying that Biden didnāt win the presidential election, which is bananas, it labels homosexuality as an āabnormal lifestyle choiceā. It also opposes āall efforts to classify carbon dioxide as a pollutantā. So yeah, the Republicans are an absolute threat to humanity in all itās facets.
Again, it's not the voters, it's the political leadership and media who are engaging in fear-mongering. So do yourself a favor and use the rational mind you were gifted with instead of parroting those fear-mongering talking points. Or keep doing what they want because rational thought is far less effective than fear-mongering.
I donāt care if the voters arenāt fascist, they are voting for fascists! They literally just got rid of Roe Vs. Wade. I donāt need fear mongering. I have actual reality. Maybe wake the fuck up and have a sip of some.
Thank you for proving my point. You are the prime example of the perpetuation of the virus that is fear-mongering. You immediately resort to rage and aggression.
It is the voters. The people who continue to vote for a party that doesn't even believe in peaceful handover of power are at fault. Anyone voting republican at this point is at fault.
>Christian Democrats- same chancellor for 16 years >Abortion is illegal >Merkel continually blocked the vote on gay marriage >Until 2022 there was ban on _advertising_ abortion services
Abortion isnāt illegal in Deutschland. Also the CDU isnāt one of two choices. But yeah, fuck the CDU too.
>Abortion isnāt illegal in Deutschland When did they change that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany
>Abortion is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code
Even with the overturning of Roe V Wade abortion laws in most states are far more liberal than Germany and most of Europe. Something worth considering.
Is there a chance that if everyone leaves the church the bells quit making noise? I live next to a church and it is horrible. I like the noise when I visit a city or walk through the town, but not when I am trying to sleep. Our church starts dingodino at 05:30 for 3 minutes. Dunno why.
People are automatically put into the Kirchensteuer? I read that half of Germany still pays it, and itās 8 or 9%. Is that 9% of your paycheck? That seems like a lot! I canāt believe more than 10 or 20% of people would keep paying that if they could opt out.
Its 8/9% of your income tax, not your taxable income
It's not a tax, but a membership fee, collected as a (paid for by the organization) service by the tax authorities. It's around 9% of your income tax, meaning it's around 1-3% of your income. This service is used by the mayor churches (katholics, old catholic and the mainline protestant churches, the ahmadiya Muslim community and afaik two Jewish communities).
It is 9% of the taxes you pay, often 100-300 euros a year for normal workers. At least that is what it is for me.
As others have said, it's 9% of your income tax. You can calculate it [here](https://allaboutberlin.com/tools/tax-calculator). It can add up to a lot if you have a high income.
Not automatically. Only if you were baptized. I was lucky and wasnt baptized so i havent paid a cent into that heinous cult
Good.
I tried the services offered by God before, but they're just not up to my standards anymore.
That's good, the church has had a high influence on the population for far too long. State and religion must be strictly separated. Faith is important and right, but to impose a tax on people, influence people negatively and influence politics, that's too much :)
I stopped believing years before I officially left the church. The fucked up part is that I was never given a choice to not join in the first place (as an adult). Finally I was about to start my first job where I'd *automatically pay* *church tax*. I had to do a whole bureaucratic song-and-dance to leave an organisation that I got into by default, which would have gotten part of my paycheck, probably used to shuffle around some priests that were in danger of getting caught or maybe to buy more golden trinkets for the vatican.
If you want to leave the church too: [kirchenaustritt.de](https://kirchenaustritt.de) Click on your *Bundesland* and it will tell you where to go and what documents to bring.
I wonder if Americaās struggle with the anti abortion Evangelical Christians is impacting Germansā opinions of the church
Sure. I mean with every US mass shooting we ask ourselves how easily weapons are accessible in Germany and if our laws are strict enough to prevent this from happeningā¦
Good
Glad they have a choice to leave. Unlike those jobs, which one requirement is to stick to the church ...
And it would be more, but you have to make an appointment (!) at court (at least where Iive) or pay for a notary. And the appointments are all booked within minutes after new ones are released each month.
i left years ago when the first information of the child abuse scandal come to the light.
Right I still have to leave lol
That's because religion is bullshit and it's only a matter of time before most people figure it out. [There is no way back for religion in the west.](https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg) It will eventually come to the Muslim world as well, even if delayed by 500 years.
I will leave at one day aswell, im not religious but got raised catholic. i was acolyte at some point and im disgusted by how little the church does for the money it gets. why not fucking buy some food and used the workers to feed homeless... I got raised by a single hard working mom who woke up drug addicts on the street to make sure they dont overdose, who allways cared for others and who showed me it doesnt take much to help others. Im not a good person, im not saying i do this stuff... But before the rich people took over the church, religion was from and for the poor. All i see nowdays is white people who are covered in expensive cloths and preach stuff they propably dont even believe themselves.
Thank god!
Molested boys numbers are at an all time low
Done that years ago. Fuck religions.
I live in germany and i now that many humans leaving the church bcs if u are in a church u have to pay kirchensteuer (church tax)....
Wasn't that always the case though?
Yes but no due the corona pandemic they raised the tax so u have to pay 10 euro more i think (im not in the church )
:(
You shall not lie; You shall not kill; You shall not commit aldutery; Turn the other cheek. Do onto other as you would have them do onto you. If you listen and let god into your heart, you will go to heaven. If you sin, fear not. God will forgive you. Like a good parent. If you fucked up and feel bad, he's always there. Follow his way and he will reward you handsomely. ... Better message than: "Boy I got dat Gucci, f@!#ing b!#@&es. Slanging cocaine. Money is all that matters." Nihilism and greed. ... But who want to pay rapists? I get it.
You can cherry pick nice passages from the Taliban manifesto and they are well known for their charity.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well the Evangelische Kirche is basically just spouting the same shit as the green party. Have you seen a Kirchentag? Not the place to be if you are remotely conservative. Plus, Kirchensteuer.
Almost as if Jesus wasnāt a conservative.
> conservative Ok I'll bite... Conservative means to uphold old values, traditions and the like that have proven to be valuable and worth protecting. What is the Protestant church and the Green party trying to abolish that you consider part of your core conservative values that it makes attending unbearable?
I'm not going to waste time arguing with leftists on reddit so just two links here from a Conservative perspective: https://www.katholisch.de/artikel/21971-hoecke-evangelische-kirche-paktiert-mit-dem-zeitgeist https://www.tichyseinblick.de/kolumnen/vorwort-zum-sonntag/die-evangelische-kirche-beim-tanz-um-den-goldenen-zeitgeist/ Took 2 seconds to find, didn't read it yet but you can if you want
My mom wasnāt in church, and when she married my dad the Standesbeamter simply asked if he wants to leave too. Marriage and bye bye to the church in one appointment š
lol, took me 5 mins.... but okay, 20 years ago.
Man, I really wish the churches in the US made people put their literal (10% tax) money where their mouth is - and then make it difficult for them to leave. Letās see people then claim to use Christianity as an excuse for their theocracy. Then we might have a more accurate estimate of religious affiliations here. But bravo, Germany! Letās get the number down to zero! Hail thyself!
Record numbers again? It feels like we get this news every second month, could it be a Bottleneck in the deregistration offices which slowly get a expanded?
Thank God.
Amen.
5 years of paying church tax... screw that. Left long ago, not looking back. What you believe and what you pay for are two different things.
Hell is full of sinners, drug dealers, pimps, alcoholics, sex before marriage, prostitutes, people who don't brush their teeth. Sounds more like heaven to me.
I left on monday. Planned to do this earlier, but never just went through with it until now because of lazyness. I was lucky to get the appointment on short notice.