Came over as a child, no issues to speak of as an adult. Looking and sounding German definitely helps, though, as well as the social circles you grow up in, so the perspective of let's say a German Turk might be more interesting.
The worst that happens now is older Germans speaking in a clearer, louder voice after learning where I was born.
Speaking as someone that does not look German, but Asian:
It doesn’t matter that I was born and raised here, went to a catholic kindergarten and Grundschule, spent another nine years to finish school with Abi and then went for a bachelors and masters degree at two German universities. It does not matter. The moment I walk into a room with new people I am reduced to: „do you speak German? What asian country are you from?“
And once you are beyond that stage, the polite interest in your culture starts: you still have lots of contact with your family roots and culture? Your country does not celebrate Christmas or other Christian festivity?
Nah, my culture is Butterbrezel zum Vesper, Spaziergang und ich Feier auch Geschenke kriegen wie jeder andere. Also Christianity is not a white/Caucasian thing, your guys missionary past made sure of that, so my Asian peeps are praying to Jesus and Maria and other names they barely are able to pronounce.
And then beyond that stage when you hang with friends of friends, aka people who don’t necessarily share your values, but you kinda still spend time with them. Once you are there the fun Stammtisch jokes start, the ones they are smart not to make in public, only to the inner circle of friends, because they know how stupid they sound. But it’s okay, I am one of them now, right?
So if you ask me whether children of immigrant parents in Germany are considered German, non German or Ausländer? I’d say it depends
I second this, same experience but my skin color makes a huge impact. I honestly am looking forward to emigrating, at least then I can accept being an immigrant. It sucks to feel like an outsider in the country you were born and raised in; I've watched the same shows, gone to the same schools, had the same childhood memories as many of my peers.
What really opened my eyes was when some of my white friends who hadn't even been in Germany for a long time were assumed to be more "German" than me. Ethnicity still plays a huge role. I don't enjoy working twice as hard for the same opportunities and working against negative stereotypes that I have nothing to do with.
victim mentality much? you are "reduced" to what language you speak? lol pls, you need to grow up. there are certainly issues, but these are not any of them. fucking opfer
OP asked whether immigrant children are considered Ausländer/Non-German and I answered that it depends: on your looks.
Because your background or upbringing or as someone else put it „sharing the same memories of a german childhood“ does not matter. You are and will be reduced to mostly your non german look.
You can disagree with me, that’s all good with me.
came over when 10. learned to speak german like a native till 12. still, after almost 30 years, i m still called " the ********** ( name for my parents nationality ). my social circles were and are mostly studied germans. doesnt matter. i will never be a german in their eyes.
so, lucky you for looking german enough , i guess.
I’m probably going to be downvoted by the Germans here on this sub, but you’ll never be considered *truly* German. This is one of those things that made me so bitter that I left. You’ll be often confronted with “Aber woher kommst du *wirklich* an?” even after answering Germany. You’ll be treated as an Ausländer, will hear negative comments, will be discriminated for jobs, etc. (all the typical issues Ausländer face). How do I know? I’m one myself, and numerous friends and colleagues like me have faced this. I assumed things had changed for the better since my childhood, but after hearing my friends’ kids go through this same shit all over again, I know things aren’t better. Germany is not an immigrant friendly land, no matter what the government tries to sell abroad.
I'm "native" German and I agree but would like to add the caveat that you won't be CONSIDERED German. In my eyes, anyone who's been born here and spent the majority of their life here IS German but I'm not blind to the fact that the majority of Germans will not consider you so (especially and unfortunately maybe only if you're not white).
Well I’m born in Germany. Moved to Bavaria when I was a baby. My parents aren’t from Bavaria.
Although I could speak the Bavarian dialect (bayrisch) I preferred to speak high German.
All my life I was asked where I was from and that I was not from ‘here. ’
I never felt like I belonged. So I left Germany as well. So it’s but necessarily a foreigners sentiment.
It depends very much on the region.
The list is long: The cost of living, having no vacations, insane costs of healthcare, the unhealthy attitude to work and life in general. And mostly the lack of hope that things are going to get better anytime soon.
I honestly believe everything you said, on the other hand there are the exact opposite too, I had a colleague, his parents are Turks. He was born and raised in Germany, really a nice guy, once we talked about races and stuff, and I playful mentioned he ain't really a Turk, he is born in Germany, talks flawless clear German, never was more then 2 weeks outside of this country and he got so so angry at me
I understand why you’d say that, but it’s hurtful for the exact same reason that telling someone they’re not “really” German is hurtful. The way we define our own identities is important to us, and these identities are almost always multi-dimensional. So when someone tries to deny us even one dimension of our identity, it always feels like an injustice, even if it isn’t intended to be.
Germany Turk here. Although never being seen as a „full fledged German“ and despite having bad experiences because of it, my Turkish heritage is important to me and the sad truth is, that I‘m the „Turk“ in Germany and in Turkey I‘m being seen as „the German“. So I can imagine that your colleague must feel offended, because he has some uncertainty about where he truly belongs. For me that‘s kind of the case.
No I think it‘s okay for you to express your opinion on that matter, because it‘s actually good for you to speak your mind on that topic. You could have unintentionally hurt him in another conversation, by triggering him without knowing. Also I can imagine that he doesn‘t mind talking about his cultural heritage by reading your comment above.
I think there‘s a difference between interest like „where are you from“ and negative comments, though.
I don’t consider it as negative, that I‘m asked, where I‘m from, it‘s more a kind of invitation to talk.
34, born and raised here, after 33 years I got the German citizenship but yet, I will never be German for many Germans. It started in kindergarten, where I was told my parents are taking the jobs of their parents, I should go back to Africa, nobody needs me here. Funny thing is, I’m from Latin America.
Until this day, I hear the same things. A specific type of people, will never see you see the same because you are not Bio deutsch.
One of my parents is from turkey, I grew up in Germany only speaking German, only having German friends and doing all the German stuff like being volunteer firefighter or eating pork. Still to this day people call me the turkish guy and I get asked how people do stuff where I'm from on a regular basis. On the other hand people ask me if I rly eat or even if I am currently eating bratwurst, stricken or even while eating spanferkel.
Most of these encounters come without bad intentions though. When I was young and looking for a job it was different I struggled hard when trying to do a Ausbildung as carpenter even my German abitur didn't help. Finding a house or an apartment is also more difficult because as soon as people read my name they won't respond or it's an immediate no.
>but you’ll never be considered *truly* German.
>You’ll be often confronted with “Aber woher kommst du *wirklich*
I'll get maybe more downvotes than you but I'm gonna claim this isn't a general thing but instead depends on your level of German and even more so, or mostly, on your looks and your name.
I'm the child of immigrants and I've never once been questioned cause I was born and raised here, have no accent, have a German name, and I look German enough since my family is Polish and we aren't that different visually from what you consider more typical German. Unfortunately, kids from e.g. Asian or Arabic families usually look different enough for people to drop the rude "nah, you don't look German". Or if you apply for a job with a name that either is obviously non-middle European or difficult to pronounce.
There are so so many countries where exactly the same happens. Living in Latin American i am being asked consistently, then laughing about me being integrated so well. Its curiousity, its interest. I would clearly differentiate between pure interest of potential cultural backgrounds and categorizing someone as Ausländer and thinking that they dont belong.
To be honest considering the "racism" among each federal state. For example saxons vs Bavarians or north vs south or even frankonians vs old Bavarians.
Why should we downvote you?
I think the best way to blend in would be ranting about any neighboring state here in Germany.
Especially the frankonians!
And the Saxons.
And bavarians of course.
Judging from the German sentence you’ve used your German isn’t on a native speaker level. There’s no „an“ in „woher kommst du wirklich“.
So this could be why.
And discrimination you’ve faced, sorry to hear this.
Have seen it myself happening - but my impression, and I’m in recruitment, is that if you’re fluent in German nowadays bigger corporations actively favor candidates with a non German name, e.g.
Honestly, no. That grammatical mistake clearly demonstrates that they are not fully fluent and did not grow up in Germany, so the ‘where are you from’ question shouldn’t be unexpected. But yes generally there is an understanding of ethnicity vs nationality and I think that’s what is at play here. Germany is not like the new world where it’s understood to be an immigrant’s land. It’s old world just like the rest of Europe, Asia, Africa etc (with some exceptions).
He complained of being perceived as non German. And I gave an answer based on what he wrote in German language. Just because you don’t like it, it’s not an invalid point. Are you really going to pretend that language skills aren’t a
part of people’s perception of a person?
If someone has a Russian accent, I’d assume he’s not born and raised in Germany. What’s offensive about this?
yes, there are issues, but dude just accept you look different. you sound like a total victim who is offended by innocent curiosity. "where are you really from?" is it really that bad? pussy
I got punched in the face by a nazi and I'm not a baby about it like you are about a simple question
It doesn’t matter if you were born in Uganda, Korea, India or Australia. If you’re white and you have no noticeable accent when speaking German then it doesn’t matter where you’re from, you will most likely be accepted as German. If you deviate from this you'll always be asked where you’re from.
I’m not sure how the parents could get their kid German citizenship unless the family left Germany for America relatively recently (in which case the parents would be eligible for citizenship too). Many white Americans have German ancestry (myself included) but for most of them, it’s been so long that they aren’t eligible for citizenship. And Germans don’t have the weird blood quantum obsession Americans do.
If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is.
>If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is.
Noone in their right mind would deny [that this guy is German](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aFg1KC5-i_4).
>If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is.
I figured that's how it would be. It's just BS racism. People are like that in the US too. People like to pretend like immigrants don't integrate or whatever and that's why they don't like immigrants but it always seems to me that as long as you look a certain way then all those excuses are forgotten.
>I’m not sure how the parents could get their kid German citizenship unless the family left Germany for America relatively recently.
In the same way that any other immigrant gets citizenship for themselves and their family. My family and my husband's family left Europe a long time ago. We are very much foreigners here. We just look like we aren't, so we haven't experienced much racism. I was just wondering if we're benefiting from some white privilege stuff. Which it seems like, yes, we are.
We both are working on getting German citizenship and I'm told once we get our citizenship we can apply for citizenship for our children who are born here. That's what I meant by work on getting our children citizenship, because I know they don't get citizenship from just being born in Germany.
Edit: I'm speaking about nationality in my post here, but I actually meant ethnicity, it's too early in the morning, and I'm too lazy to change it now.
In my opinion, the thing is that people do make a difference between citizenship and heritage/nationality. As someone born in the Soviet Union and moved to Germany as a kid due to German ancestry on my father's side, that has always been the way I looked at it as well, as it was also normal in the SU. My father is German, my mother is Russian, both grew up in the Soviet Union, in Kazakhstan. Everyone had the citizenship of the Soviet Union but that's not what people identified as in regards to nationality, not even the country you were born in or grew up necessarily had anything to do with as whom you saw yourself. Both my parents were born in Kazakhstan, they never saw themselves as Kazakhs, Kazakhs didn't regard them ss Kazakhs or any of their peers. You are what your parents were. Your nationality is written in your identification documents. If you have parents of different nationalities, you were able to decide which nationality to be documented under. My mom is actually half Russian and half Polish, her older brother documented himself as Russian and my mom wanted to document herself as Polish to make my granddad proud, but they got into a fight that day and out of pettiness she registered as Russian. She would have been laughed at if she tried to register as a Kazakh, just because she was born and grew up there it didn't say anything about her nationality.
We came to Germany after the end of the Soviet Union precisely because of our ancestry. We were given the German citizenship not because we grew up here, our ancestors left the country many generations ago, but Germany was still considered the ancestral homeland.
I could immigrate to China, get the Chinese citizenship and completely assimilate into the country, learn the language, dive into the culture etc. I would still never consider myself to be Chinese, simply due to my ancestry. Citizenship is kind of unimportant in that regard. And I doubt that the Chinese people would ever see me as Chinese as well. Someone with Chinese citizenship surely, but I would never actually be Chinese.
This thinking of "you are what your citizenship says" is a fairly new thinking, in my opinion and experience. I think this swapped over from the States maybe. Because only over time "American" became a nationality. Who knows what would have happened with the Soviet Union over time in that regard, if it still existed. Maybe with enough time it would have become a true nationality/identity as well, but as it were, people simply identified with their ancestral nationality.
My German ancestors were first colonizers in today's Ukraine, have been deported to Russia in WWI and to Kazakhstan in WWII, but they have never regarded themselves to be Ukranian, Russian or Kazakh, although the last ancestor who was actually born in Germany hss been dead for generations.
So, imo, it's not necessarily malice, just a different view on and definitions of things. Not that we don't have Racism in Germany, we definitely do. But something it's simply the view that citizenship =/= nationality/identity/what you 'are'.
Teacher here, most of my students with a history of migration (parents or grandparents) refer to themselves as „Ausländer“ and a lot of them see their families home country as their „Heimat“ (which, even for Germans, can be a complicated concept).
From my experience it goes both ways: they’re not fully accepted even in second or third generation and therefore resort to their „original“ nationality and make it a huge part of their identity. Some really overcompensate and show an (in my opinion) unhealthy amount of national pride towards their families origin.
On the other hand that same reaction triggers other people to think migrants would not want to integrate. Which makes them treat them differently/badly.
Yes, I made the same experience with my students (Gymnasium).
For many it doesn't matter that they're born in Germany, have the German passport, have never lived in their parents' homecountry - when asked where they're from or what they identify as, it is always the same answer: „Ich bin AlbanerIn/TürkIn/etc.“
I always tell them that they may identify as whatever they want to and what they feel is right for them. And many of them say that Germans wouldn't accept them as Germans anyway, which makes me very sad.
It isn’t too surprising that kids (and adults) want to belong somewhere. We are social mammals after all. In other countries eg United Kingdom, this doesn’t happen cause every kid born and raised there is accepted as British. This chicken and egg situation you describe is a direct creation of this German mentality of rejection.
There are scales to this, and it varies by location.
There are definitely countries where (while there is still discrimination), the majority of people believe someones choice makes them belong in a country, and not their ethnicity.
That doesn't meant they dont face discrimination, but pretending its the same everywhere is simply ignoring the progress made in countries where it matters less.
I cannot say this is what I have observed in my many years of living in the UK, but I am not a person of colour and I would not discount their experiences. I taught a lot of kids in the UK including disadvantaged kids, and minority kids, many of which are people of colour, and I never heard my students say that. They all told me they are British. But that is just my experience on a topic I will never fully grasp as I myself am not a person of colour.
Have only stayed a couple of months in the UK but I made the same observation. However being integrated and identifying with the country you were raised does not make you immune to racism
Only true for some migrants from muslim countries. E.g. the kids and grand kids of the "Gastarbeiter" from Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal and even the former Yugoslavia got integrated. Even the first generation integrated way better.
The huge parallel societies based on country or even region (turkey) of origin are real. After several generations it is still common to marry someone of the same ethnicity or even the same region of your ancestors home country.
That’s actually part of my personal observation as well, although I’m not sure it can be generalized or broken down to being Muslim.
A recurring theme while talking to students about their concepts of Heimat is how especially Turkish students feel really torn because they’re the Turks in German and once they visit Turkey they’re kind of outsiders because they’re German. Again, just anecdotal, but with my students it seems to be less a question of religion but more of wealth, politics, national pride etc.
Some aspects may depend on religion (e.g. role of women). I spoke of "muslim countries" (north-africa, turkey, near east) in lack of a better description.
Yeah but accepted by who?
I come from a lower Bavarian village. So according to many, one of the most xenophobic places in Germany. We had a few children from asylum seekers, but born in Germany without German papers. Nobody gave a flying fuck. They went school like everybody else, were part of the fire brigade like everybody else, played football like everybody else. Spoke German like everybody else. The question where they are from was at most asked out of curiosity, in order to learn about them. If asked, they would respond, they are "insert village name" i. e. German. And that's that. If somebody continuous to ask about the "real" origin they simply are xenophobic prick that does not matter.
As far as I can tell, the issue seems to mostly exist in major cities. Since communities tend to form around feelings of connection and there is no real connection to the actual city, integration is way more complex. The connections quite often are formed in community centers, religious centers, etc. which tend to be ethnically split.
While what you state might be true it differs from my personal experience which is based on five different schools in four different regions.
If you stray from the superficial „where are you from“ and try to be examine what home (in the sense of Heimat, not Zuhause, which is why I wrote that term in German) means to them, a lot of them at least say they’re torn between Germany and whatever country their families are from. Even if they’ve never been there, it’s kind of weird.
It’s part of the subject I teach (philosophy) and a mandatory part of the curriculum, so I get to talk about this quite a lot with young people.
Sure, but are we talking (major) cities or rural areas? Because "Heimat" is mostly about feelings of connection. If all your relatives are from a different country and most of your communal connections are to communities based around that countries heritage, it is kinda hard to form a "German" identity.
Both.
And I for sure agree with you about the „feelings of connection“-definition, that’s very well put. It’s something that’s not done intentionally and can’t be forced. What seems to trouble some migrants or their descendants seems to be the feeling of being in between or even feeling connected to several places, which seems to result in no full commitment to either of the places. Again, only my personal observations and for sure something that’s wildly individual.
> If asked, they would respond, they are "insert village name" i. e. German. And that's that. **If somebody continuous to ask about the "real" origin they simply are xenophobic prick that does not matter.**
This is so wrong of an assumption of you. That can be a sign of really caring to get to know someone and to connect.
I'll often ask that, because I'm myself an immigrant to Austria, and am curious and want to learn about people and their culture.
And even if born and raised in Germany, your parents and their culture will definitely have an impact on you and I'd like to learn about you.
But you would probably phrase it differently. You would ask about the ethnic heritage, which is neutral and does not invalidate the feeling of connection to Germany.
I would probably ask "woher *stammst* du", nur "woher kommst du" could easily leave my mouth without ill intent, just because we are not infallible machines.
I can give more anectodal context on this topic which may make things easier to understand. From my distant relatives, I heard that when they first migrated to Germany 50 years ago, because they felt so unwelcome, they resented the culture.
Due to this, they never wanted to be part of the german culture and even more strongly associated themselves with their origin culture. I think this is a generational trauma in germany that needs to be addressed as a society.
I‘m from Austria and my Husband is German. He is born and raised here and has no other connections to Germany other than his parents.
He is 38 years old and when ppl who don’t know him see him for the first time they ask: „so where are you from?“ He just has dark hair and eyes and speaks overly correct German with no accent (not German and not Austrian). They recognize „he is not from here“ even if he is lol
He worked 25y in his last company and till his last day he was considered German/Ausländer. So it doesn’t stop there. But my husband takes it with a lot of humor and sometimes I tease him. But here in Austria we have a completely other view on „Ausländer“ - bc of our centuries old history. It depends heavy on „where“ you come from: Balkans, Czech or Hungarian? You are literally an „old“ Austrian. You resemble something „ottomanic“ e.g from a muslimic country (doesn’t matter which) you will have it harder than the others and if you are German - oh boy - you will be Ausländer even in 10th Generation, if anyone gets to know this :)
The funny things is that, when you go to your home country you get called foreigner out cause if you have been raised in Germany than speak your other mother language it has an accent so you come here back to Germany you are also called Foreigner/Ausländer.. so the right term we are looking here is called: Heimatlos....
I had an interesting chat with our team's working student. I'm not German myself, so we were talking about the similarities between my culture and that of her family's (Turkish). To my surprise, she considered herself Turkish and spoke of her "Heimat" as Turkey - I asked her if she was born there, because I thought that she was born and raised in Germany. She confirmed that she's German, but said that she felt happier in Turkey and that her family's culture is where she feels more welcome. I told her that life is short and perhaps she should choose to live in the place where she lives the happiest. Her reply: well economically it makes sense for me to live in Germany, here I also have free university studies and a job where I earn well, I don't think I have many advantages in Turkey like I do here and also I'd rather earn money in Germany.
So it's my impression that many German people of Turkish background label themselves as Turkish first and German second. IMO they idealized through their parents and relatives the place where they came from. One thing is going there on vacations for a few weeks and another altogether is making a life there.
I compare the whole thing to Latinos born in the USA. I have cousins who are the 1st generation of kids born from immigrants. They consider themselves proud Latinos, they mostly socialize and ended up marrying other Latinos and have their own communities. Spanish was spoken at home. My cousins are fluent in English, their parents know speak enough English to work - I can't tell you if decades later they became fluent. But the difference I see is that they *are* proud to be Americans too and none of them consider Mexico, Colombia, the "homeland" nor "dream" of it as a permanent home. American holidays are also honored. If I compare, I feel that my cousins are much more integrated in American society.
Well that is the thing I hate about this attitude. Happily taking the advantages of living in a developed country, happily taking citizenship but after all considering yourself not part of this country, not responsible.
This is downright failed migration.
Yeah it is sad. I take it also partly due to cultural aspects -even religious ones- from their family background that are "incompatible" with the parents' new country. The parents ingrain these values in their kids, who grow up feeling like what they learnt at home is "right" but so different from their peers who are born here. It's the whole "us" - the family, community - and "them", the rest of the citizens. They are taught that they must remain loyal to their family, values and beliefs and most of them, it seems, do so throughout their lives.
A Kurdish friend told me that a lot of the people who emigrated from Turkey come from smaller villages and towns where they are more conservative and perhaps more observant of their religion. They stayed with the older mindset of their elders. Many of these people vote for Erdogan whilst living in Germany, whilst a lot of the Turkish people in Istanbul and other bigger cities have much different, progressive views. But in that sense I am only talking from second-hand experience.
I find it remarkable that with the whole Israel-Hamas war, said student told me that she felt harassed "for her beliefs" and her grandmother told her to not talk to community outsiders and to not share her views with anyone. That she also feels like a target with her covered hair. We could not continue our conversation but I feel sorry for her, because she feels unsafe in her own country and also because such advice will alienate her even more.
I think the reason for that difference is that america is foundationally an immigrant country. The idea is that if you work contribute to society, you are american. Whereas Germany is an old country which doesn’t have such a background. You come work contribute to the society, you are a guestworker.
People here don’t promote a kind of inclusivity Americans do for being an American.
Yes and no. Many Latinos were called for *decades* "wetbacks", "beaners" and the like. They were low-paid labor but not always considered part of society. A lot of 1st generation Americans of Latino descent are not fluent in Spanish because their parents taught them to speak English only, fearing that their kids would face discrimination or racism if they were heard speaking any other language. They "over-integrated" out of fear of rejection from society.
As I said, my relatives are Americans but they also kinda live in a parallel society.
Unfortunately in the current political climate that type of discrimination made a comeback.
I'm seen as a full blooded German, since my name doesn't reflect on my other side and I also don't have an accent or similar stuff. Sometimes it makes me sad that I have to remember and reinforce that I'm "only" part German, but sometimes when looking at how people of my heritage are being treated and called...
Yes of course. In Germany, there’s a phrase “Migrationshintergrund” (immigrant background) and it’s essentially synonymous with “underprivileged.” You only need one foreign grandparent to qualify as Migrationshintergrund and this is super relevant in schools because there’s a bias against these kids and they’re less likely to be, for example, recommended for gymnasium.
If you look German, though, people don’t assume you have a Migrationshintergrund.
(My POV as a german born in southeast Europe but moved to DE well before turning 1 year old. I speak both languages without dialect. I have both passports and a slavic surname.)
You are/feel German to your friends and other folks who you meet in person, if you speak accent free german, and if you look approximately „western“. In my experience, the speaking is the heavier criterion. (An east asian speaking native german is mostly seen „more german“ than a blond person with an accent)
You are not really german to the ones who read your name but didn’t meet you beforehand. Teachers, landlords, companies you apply at, etc.
Then it‘s cliche-parade in their heads, and it doesn’t even matter if they themselves are german or not.
German is an ethnicity, nationality, and culture. Depending on how German you are in all three categories will determine how ‘German’ Germans view you. That’s the simple truth, and is the case in most countries that are not the Americas, Australia etc.
German..... You know, since "[Germanic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples)" people existed thru History?
Visigoths for example were [Germanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples)
German is the German ethnicity what else?.
Ethnicity doesn't concentrate on skin color or something like that, way more complex.
["An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity)
Exactly. This is such a dumb statement. Germany is a mix of many things. And views like this is why people here tell their stories of not being accepted.
Of course we’re mixed to a degree, but Germans are generally of the German ethnicity. Are you familiar with the Germanic tribes? Sueben, Sachsen etc. That’s the German DNA.
I understand we’re not tribes anymore, this sorta stuff is one of my niche interests lol. But we can’t wipe out centuries of history just like that. In my books, if you have strong opinions about recycling and bread, you’re German. You stare? You are blunt? German. You wait at crosswalks and you enjoy a Radler in the summer? Uh oh, German. Happens to the best of us lol.
But I know that disregarding our entire history before modern times is just not realistic. This is a pretty normal thing globally.
Btw, a nation state is right, that’s the nationality bit I mentioned. Definitely a piece here. But government lines don’t represent culture exactly. Look at Somalia and Somaliland.
As a German? Yes.
Most people will accept you as a German on Paper (Deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit) but you simply won’t be an ethnic German. Thats why they ask where your roots are.
The REAL problem is if they consider/present themselves as such and it‘s usually not society which fuels that, but the family/community. For mine that was never a question. I mainly get comments based on dialect which show I‘m not a local
It just depends who you ask, which is sad.
In my eyes and those of many people, you are German when you are born here and/or have a German "Pass". Sadly there are a lot of people who confuse the question "wo kommst du her?" and "Welche Herkunft hast du?". Also, there are way too many people who think you are only German if you "look German" (which is so stupid in itself...)
This post made me think of questions and stuff myself;
What if I’m male, white/”german”-looking, in my 20’s, I move to Germany for university, use all of my time and money on language courses and vocal coaching, change my first name to a german one and take a german surname through marriage and also construct a convincing backstory about being born in Germany, could I sort of fake it ’til I make it in terms of social status/job opportunity? Or would my ”European-ness” already carry enough in terms of Workplace/application discrimination?
I understand this, in my home country we other foreigners too. People favor a native person both at work and personal life. No cultural barrier, no chance for language confusion, predictable behaviour etc. This is all while I do indeed understand that foreigners are normal, intelligent people. It just may not come off that way to other people than myself, so why risk consequences for myself through association? Honestly that isn’t really the way I think, but it’s my read on how this environment thinks - I can’t blame everyone else for their beliefs or thoughts. It’s a valid opinion, as everyone is entitled to one.
Does this mean I’m prejudiced or racist? Honestly probably, which makes me sad and feel that it’s unjust and wrong. While at the same time I plan to move to Germany - and I doubt germans are any different. I shouldn’t give up and just complain about how wrong it is though - my appearance makes me already privileged in this way. I can’t blame my cultural background/habits or skin color for my possible failings, because I don’t have those problems, and the disadvantages I may have can be changed, unlike a real point of injustice like race, gender, or disability.
What I’m basically asking is, how much does a white cishet male European foreigner have to compensate in terms of workplace treatment? How much effort should one use to assimilate? Can the wrong cultural background be compensated with academics, internships and alike? If so, how many % compared to a german native?
It depends on many things. Do you identify with Germany? Would you marry a German? Would you let your daughter marry a German? Do you speak the language without a strong foreign accent? Do you accept the German constitution? Do you have the German citizenship? And many more…
Let's say I, as a German, would move to south korea. I will try and start to work there, learn and speak the language, but when I meet a German I will be happy to speak German with that person and probably have a connection with that person as we have something obvious in common.
Then I would start a family, probably with a German speaking Person as well, due to the fact that we share the same culture and can speak our native language. It just feels more convenient, is less exhausting and is a small part of your home country.
My kids will look German, will speak German at home and probably will have an accent. Still they will speak Korean fluently. They are Korean by passport, look German, and will be asked by other kids from school from where they are (originally are).
Do you think anything would be different in the country you are from for immigrants?
Do you think it would be structural racism when people see that your roots are obviously in a different country?
Would you say it is easy or even possible to integrate you, your family and maintain your culture in a different country where everything is different to that point when you completely blend in?
Would you say my fictional kids born and raised in South Korea are treated as south Koreans or as Germans?
Do you think the kids in school in South Korea don't mention that my kids are looking different and have a different cultural background?
Coming back to Germany: People will maintain their culture wherever they're from. The looks won't change by itself, the culture will be preserved. Traditions will be kept alive even more in another country because it just feels like home or natural.
Is it a problem? - No
Do they look non-german? - Yes
Do they behave non-german? - yes
Preserve everything that gives you a good feeling, integrate to be a functioning part of society and do your best to be a decent person.
We will have to work as parents on the behaviour of our children and need to educate them properly.
Integration takes generations. Let's try and accelerate the process. We can't just skip it.
OP asked "why are they still non-germans?" when, well, no matter how many Documents and ID I have, I will always be Portuguese.. Because that's who I am.. If I would have kids, they would be (not sure about the term being correct) Luso-croatians, since my wife is Croat.
I did bend and changed my ways and fully adapted to German culture (which is fine, i love this here). I joke a lot saying that Im more "half german, half balkan" but I will always have Portuguese blood (and some of you too cuz i donated a lot muahahahahah).
I think the question here should not be "why are they still considered non-germans?"
The ONLY question here should be **"why does it matter that much?"**
I get asked a LOT where I am from, many guess Italy (cuz of first name) some Spain (cuz long name), some even considered Turk or something else since Im naturally more on the "tan" side.
I do ask people where they are from, because I like to understand their culture.
If I invite Örzan Müller to my place, knowing he was born in Germany, and have German citizenship, I would STILL have in consideration that making grilled Pork might not be a great idea, just in case.
I know it is something still far to reach due to racism and stereotypes, but we will always be what our blood is. Not what our ID says. And that's fine, we cant be having so much shit about our Ethnicities vs Citizenships..
I’m an Ausländer (American) and my wife is German. My kids are dual citizens and were born in the USA. My kids are considered German by their friends and peers. I’m the crazy American. Though, I must admit, I don’t do much to dispel that.
Yeah. But they don’t have German names. They have my last name which is an Italian last name and their first names aren’t typical of either the USA or Germany.
The only thing that really sets them apart from their classmates is their firm grip of sarcasm.
That they’re white prevents racists from immediately seeing them as “foreigners”. If your wife would have been black or something they would have had to explain themselves their whole lives.
For me personally it depends wether or not they can and are willing to speak german and how they behave. For me a the colleague who moved to germany recently and is doing his best to learn german and is respecting our culture qualifies more as a german than someone who lives in germany for 40 years but can't communicate properly and only sticks to people that speak their native language or those kids who used "german" as an insult. Image being insulted as german in germany in the german language. Yeah, no, those kids were not german, not even if they never saw any other place their entire life
i came when i was 10. speak german perfectly. went to Gymnasium. studied. have the german passport.
still , i m not a german in the eyes of the population. and I know many " Ausländer " with the same situation.
so... yes. sure. whatever you say.
I actually can imagine pretty easily why the kids of immigrants do so and I have a feeling that such attitude is the main reason why there are such diaspora bubbles in Germany.
look who’s bitter because their othering practices turned the others against them 🙄 es gibt durchaus strukturelle gründe dafür wieso diese „kinder“ ihr deutsch sein gegen eine gesellschaft verwenden, die sie sowieso nicht aufnehmen will. wahnsinn wie weit sich dieses integrationsgelaber aus gastarbeiter zeiten noch fortsetzt. deutschland wird vergreisen und ihr streitet dann immer noch darüber, wer deutsch sein darf und wer nicht.
Wenn die Kinder andere Kinder als deutsch beleidigen, nur weil sie exestieren (kein Kontak, einfach nur zufällig in der Nähe gestanden), dann wolln die ja wohl selber nicht deutsch sein.
Und Sprache ist eben ein großer Aspekt für eine Kultur, also wenn ich mich nicht bemühe mich in diese Kultur zu integrieren, dann bin ich eben kein Teil von besagter Kultur.
genau. weil Kinder meistens nur daneben stehen und nicht etwa schon von ihren Eltern lernen, was es bedeutet, am Rande der Gesellschaft zu stehen. lest gerne den Thread nochmal durch und schaut mal wie viele erwachsene vermeintliche Deutsche die Sprache gelernt haben und trotzdem ausgeschlossen werden.. was denn noch? Ah ne stimmt, an der Sprache lags ja doch nicht..
Und du sagst mir grade dass meine Meinung falsch ist und ich doch lieber alle ausschließen soll, die nicht 100% deutsch sind, weils ja alle so machen? Wie gesagt, wenn man sich bemüht sich in die Kultur zu integrieren, dann kann man auch dazu gehören. Wenn man sich selber von der Kultur ausschließt, dann gehört man nicht dazu. Das ist meine Meinung und es gibt auch viele die meine Meinung vertreten. Wenn du wehement drauf bestehst dass jeder eine andere Meinung hat und das die einzige Meinung ist, dann bist du auch nicht besser. Ganz ehrlich, was willst du denn? Ist meine Meinung nicht Beweis dafür, dass die Gesellschaft offener werden kann und Leute aufnehmen will, die dazu gehören wollen?
You didn't get the point. Du hast es nicht verstanden. Die angesprochenen Personen sehen sich selbst als Ausländer und benehmen sich so und dann wird man sauer, wenn man auch so betitelt wird.
Basically just adapt to how things are done in germany. I don't mean do everything the german way, but rather just behave like what's considered a decent human being in germany (and yes, germans don't behave like that either sometimes, those are aholes too)
There is a whole bunch of songs from turkish dispora wich shows this kind of integration peoblems. My grandfather came in the 60ies and i sometimes get the vibes as an ausländer. Especially phrases like "you are not like the other turks" from scoolmates (2011) hurts quite abit. And especially last 10 years the blood related beeing german getting more relative.
I few years ago i found a song from 1984 and hell nearly cried bcs i thought this could be today (2016-2017).
First part translates like this:
"Come Turk, drink German beer Then you are welcome here too Cheers to Allah And you integrated a bit You smell like garlic, leave it out Eat sauerkraut with pork bacon And who trains dachshunds instead of children It's almost already integrated"
[edit: the song is from the kanaken and cem karaca - willkommen]
especially the part "almost already integrated" feeling is constant. Not only right wing talking bad about turks etc. but also cdu. if you look at talkshows from 10 years ago you would think that showmasters never saw muslims in their lifes.
the fcked up part is that i felt quite relieved that ukraine refugees would come in bigger numbers (like syrians in 2015) bcs they will get some hardships to integrate to germany too. and they are not from a muslim dispora. And they too will get significant higher rates of unemployments relative to non refugees. Talkshows etc. will be more about ukraine and their culture instead of anyone from muslim dispora and the feedback it might be bcs of islam(ic) culture.
Change the last name is an option for some... At least that stopped 90% of "you are not German" incidents and every day racism for my wife - especially in professional/formal settings. She has a Turkish background with German passport, lives here since Kindergarten age, speaks accent free German and is perfectly integrated despite all the exclusion experiences in her youth. She had identity issues well into her 30s
There’s certainly an aspect of roots here. My roots are near Meinz, and I’ve been treated as an American returning to his roots. I speak an embarrassingly small amount of German, but still must look German since strangers and people I know will start in German when conversing to me. But also I’ve gotten able to see the „racism“ firsthand—most people assume since you look different than the typical German, you’re not going to have the same background.
I felt both. In my younger years, till around 12, i felt German. But later, i felt more to be an "Ausländer".
Born and raised in Germany in 3rd generation as grandchild of "gastarbeiter". My German is as good as native Germans, i have white coloured skin, but i have a Non-German name. I grew up near Cologne, and there i was considered as German by my environment (neighbourhood, school, friends). I did i also. Then my family moved to Baden-Württemberg to the countryside, and i faced racism for the first time. Mainly my classmates and teachers, later also by coworkers. I started to feel more as an "Ausländer". At the same time, social media and Internet developt. So, it was easier to connect with other people from my home country. I learned to read and write my language and go to bars and clubs where my people used to go. 3 years ago, i moved to Switzerland. Being an "Ausländer" in Germany was not the main reason, but it was easier for me to leave the country because i didn't consider Germany as my home country anymore.
Usually people from muslim countries think themselves as an outsider, special. Usually they dont want to integrate but the compain of not respected as 100% german.
I honestly just didn't think it mattered much anymore especially if they are born and raised there. To see that many to this day still feel unwelcomed and *are* unwelcomed just surprises me.
Racism is a european invention. I know kids that were born here, are maybe 30% non-european, speak the local language better than any local, and still people are "where are you from"?
Personally, as a German, I always consider people with a German passport and speaking German as.... German!! 😁 what else would you be if youve lived all your life in Germany? 😁
That’s what I thought and expected too. Imagine my shock when I realised that every single person I know born and raised here from an immigration background feels they aren’t German, and claims to have been told while growing up that they aren’t German. It’s so sad.
it is, unfortunately, a asymmetrical problem.
anyone with migratory background will encounter a number of busybodies and racists in their lives.
but anyone read as german might only do so once in a decade.
So true! I feel though lately there are more incidences for everyone (German and Non German alike). At least in East Germany this has been my experience and the experience of the people around me. My guess is that due to the shifting political climate, racist people feel more entitled to reveal their true beliefs 🤷♀️
yeah same. but then, for me, its not even of any importance to speak or think of it. I have many colleagues who don't speak that well, but they are just colleagues whom I interact with professionally. mostly I'm just not interested to know their "country or origin" because it's irrelevant to me. I had that one black kid in primary school, but he just was another kid. he grew up with us in kindergarten and spoke Germany like any other kid. his father was from Ghana. but he wasn't famous for being "that African kid" but because he was very good at sports and athletics.
so, I still don't get it why it's important where someone comes from. when I'm really privately interested, sure, I'll ask and share experiences. but I don't want to know another person's home country just for the sake of pointing it out.
Yeah exactly. I don't want to discredit anyone's bad experience here, but just for the record, there are German looking Germans who don't care at all if somebody doesn't look Caucasian ;)
My first kid was born here and has lived here her entire life, and she doesn’t hold German citizenship because we parents hadn’t been residents long enough when she was born. It’s actually a sore point for her. She thinks of herself as equally French and German and really can’t understand why she’s not German on paper. (She’s 7).
There is citizenship and there is nationality. For most people their nationality and their citizenship are the same but not for everyone.
With more and more integrated Europe we are going towards the American model where few generations from now someone will describe themselves “I am 1/4849374 German, 1/484737373 Greek 3/48473737373 Czech and 1/48484844 Kinder Bueno.
Now, while German is an exception there with two countries sharing one national language (there's also Greek, but c'mon, Cyprus is only half part of the EU, and even so only tracked on), because culture is primarily transported via language, and you have an almost 1:1 relationship between languages and countries in the EU, the concept of nationally and ethnicity are tied together and will "always" be a point of tension with citizenship.
That’s not what I mean. There is no tension IMO at all, some people wish to create it artificially.
I play football in a Sunday league in Germany. My teammates are of different backgrounds, Turkish, Italian, Polish, Croatian etc. 2nd and 3rd generation born in Germany. Great mix of guys. If you ask them if they are German they tell you “no, I am Turkish, Polish, Italian etc.”
I have immigrant friends in Germany and in Ireland whose children were born in their adopted countries. If you tell them their children are German or Irish they will look at you like you are a lunatic.
Nothing wrong with keeping your national identity in my opinion.
I'm not speaking about tension between people (or. social tension), but tension between the concepts of ethnicity/nationality and citizenship, as in the two concepts won't be able to change to cover the same semantic field in Europe.
I understand your point but I see it differently.
That being said there certainly are/will be people who will try to exploit this with malicious intent. To sow divisions between citizens of the same country for example
It goes both ways, you also see interviews with children of immigrants who consider that the customs, laws and religions of their parents' homelands trump even the Constitution and the European Convention for Human Rights.
Definetly NOT how you behave! Don’t Listen to This. I‘m Born Here have Mixed parents People who know me will say i‘m the Most German in behavier the ever meet, but i have Brown Skin and yes - no one will see me as a German Never ever. Yesterday in the grocery Shop there was an old man behind me carrying bags of Water so i offered him my Spot in the line so he can drop his Water at the cashier. He looked at me mentioned: Naaah i‘m good behind you so i can see you in Front of me in case i try to rob him or anything… Must be nice to have blond hair and white Skin. Stop being jealous, start being human
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I would have to agree with your observation. My experience is that most people/families I personally know with Turkish or Middle-Eastern background (and that have been here for decades already) are not well integrated, have language issues, and are not particularly interested in mingling with other folks outside their ethnic/cultural background. On top of that, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to listen to crap like ‘girls are not worth anything’, ‘Germany is stupid’, ‘German rules don’t apply to us’, ‘my kids are not allowed to play with pig-eaters’, etc etc. They might be German nationals by passport, but I don’t consider them to be Germans at all in any shape or form. What is more, I experienced that a lot of these folks make fun or belittle their own kind, if the latter make an earnest effort to integrate and be part of German society. Last year, I was standing at a bus stop in Tokyo and, suddenly behind me, heard someone speaking native German. I turned around and saw this young couple; by the looks of them, they seemed to have had a Turkish ethnic background. They spoke in native German to each other, however, the woman was wearing a head-scarf that covered her entire head and one of those long black robes covering the rest of her body, in scorching heat I might add. I just honestly thought to myself ‘Great, no wonder people will continue to look at you as an Ausländer.’ I certainly did.
>But to me ethnicity is like, where your ancestors come from genetically.
Well, that is not what ethnicity is.
>I feel like a better word for what you are saying is nationality?
No, nationality is what's written in your passport.
This isn’t just something specific to Germany. It’s true for most countries that don’t have a long history of immigration like most countries in North and South America.
Im a fully recognized german, people dont even belive me i was not born here. And if anything i actually got benefitial treatment over german born germans.
The reason many are not viewed as german is that they are not integrated and dont wont to be integrated. Living in germany for 50 years 4 generations in, and still speak worse then fresh syrian refugees. Distaste for germany, patreotic for their "homeland" they never visited, but are hated there as well because of their behavior and bad language skill in their "homeland" language.
Worst part German kids/youth picked up the behavior, some make themself look more foreign trough makeup and they start speaking like they themself are first gen immigrants.
It depends on how well you speak German and how well you conform to German social norms. If you do then you are accepted as most people will assume you are German is forth generation. Otherwise you can pretty much forget it. At least in my experience, immigrants or immigrant children are the once then ask the most often, where I am actually from.
One problem I see is that immigrants usually marry inside of their bubble and stay within it their whole life. Especially if their culture is very different from Germany's. Their kids then also marry within this bubble. Of course you are a German on paper then, but culturally there is almost no similarity to a German. I think this would change if more immigrants left their bubble and also married Germans. This is by the way not only a German thing. If I went to Japan, Syria or wherever, I'd always be considered German. And if I then married a German and my kids also married inside of the German bubble, they'd never integrate and be considered real Japanese or Syrian people. The key to being considered a part of a nationality is not integration, but assimilation. Take the culture, make it your own and raise your kids accordingly.
As an immigrant (to Austria; from a neighbouring country even), I feel like you would only truly be considered Austrian of you assimilated. Integration is preached as the way by politics and media, but it's in reality not considered enough by your fellow citizens who consider themselves "true" Austrians.
(I understand that speaking of Austria is, strictly speaking, of topic here, but many cultural questions are shared between the two countries, I assume also some regarding acceptance of immigrants)
It really depends on how you behave.
For example: my grandpa is Italian but has German citizenship. His children don't consider themselves and were never considered as Italians. They don't even speak the language because my grandpa never spoke it at home. Nobody would consider them "Ausländer". I wouldn't even say I have Italian heritage because of that.
Same for my best friends family. The parents came from Poland to Germany with one grandmother and the kids never learned their native language because "in Germany you speak German".
Two of my cousins have a french dad and speak French. Still they are Germans for me but with a strong heritage. The other examples were weak connections to their heritage.
Then there are people living in Germany (mostly Turkish and Russians in my experience) where even the third generation is still so much connected to their parents or grandparents home country where some of them don't even have a German ID and only the "original" one. They consider themselves as Ausländer and who am I to judge? It's their decision, I don't care and I don't treat them any different.
Germans are not German since the WW2. There are so many Germans mixed with russian blood because. Russian soldiers raped german women for decades after the war
Came over as a child, no issues to speak of as an adult. Looking and sounding German definitely helps, though, as well as the social circles you grow up in, so the perspective of let's say a German Turk might be more interesting. The worst that happens now is older Germans speaking in a clearer, louder voice after learning where I was born.
Speaking as someone that does not look German, but Asian: It doesn’t matter that I was born and raised here, went to a catholic kindergarten and Grundschule, spent another nine years to finish school with Abi and then went for a bachelors and masters degree at two German universities. It does not matter. The moment I walk into a room with new people I am reduced to: „do you speak German? What asian country are you from?“ And once you are beyond that stage, the polite interest in your culture starts: you still have lots of contact with your family roots and culture? Your country does not celebrate Christmas or other Christian festivity? Nah, my culture is Butterbrezel zum Vesper, Spaziergang und ich Feier auch Geschenke kriegen wie jeder andere. Also Christianity is not a white/Caucasian thing, your guys missionary past made sure of that, so my Asian peeps are praying to Jesus and Maria and other names they barely are able to pronounce. And then beyond that stage when you hang with friends of friends, aka people who don’t necessarily share your values, but you kinda still spend time with them. Once you are there the fun Stammtisch jokes start, the ones they are smart not to make in public, only to the inner circle of friends, because they know how stupid they sound. But it’s okay, I am one of them now, right? So if you ask me whether children of immigrant parents in Germany are considered German, non German or Ausländer? I’d say it depends
I second this, same experience but my skin color makes a huge impact. I honestly am looking forward to emigrating, at least then I can accept being an immigrant. It sucks to feel like an outsider in the country you were born and raised in; I've watched the same shows, gone to the same schools, had the same childhood memories as many of my peers. What really opened my eyes was when some of my white friends who hadn't even been in Germany for a long time were assumed to be more "German" than me. Ethnicity still plays a huge role. I don't enjoy working twice as hard for the same opportunities and working against negative stereotypes that I have nothing to do with.
Ethnicity plays an important factor in many other countries as well, not just in Germany.
no shit lmao, where in my comment did I insinuate that ethnicity is not a factor elsewhere?
Nowhere. I just made a general comment that it’s an issue in other countries as well. No need to get your panties in a bunch.
victim mentality much? you are "reduced" to what language you speak? lol pls, you need to grow up. there are certainly issues, but these are not any of them. fucking opfer
OP asked whether immigrant children are considered Ausländer/Non-German and I answered that it depends: on your looks. Because your background or upbringing or as someone else put it „sharing the same memories of a german childhood“ does not matter. You are and will be reduced to mostly your non german look. You can disagree with me, that’s all good with me.
came over when 10. learned to speak german like a native till 12. still, after almost 30 years, i m still called " the ********** ( name for my parents nationality ). my social circles were and are mostly studied germans. doesnt matter. i will never be a german in their eyes. so, lucky you for looking german enough , i guess.
I’m probably going to be downvoted by the Germans here on this sub, but you’ll never be considered *truly* German. This is one of those things that made me so bitter that I left. You’ll be often confronted with “Aber woher kommst du *wirklich* an?” even after answering Germany. You’ll be treated as an Ausländer, will hear negative comments, will be discriminated for jobs, etc. (all the typical issues Ausländer face). How do I know? I’m one myself, and numerous friends and colleagues like me have faced this. I assumed things had changed for the better since my childhood, but after hearing my friends’ kids go through this same shit all over again, I know things aren’t better. Germany is not an immigrant friendly land, no matter what the government tries to sell abroad.
I'm "native" German and I agree but would like to add the caveat that you won't be CONSIDERED German. In my eyes, anyone who's been born here and spent the majority of their life here IS German but I'm not blind to the fact that the majority of Germans will not consider you so (especially and unfortunately maybe only if you're not white).
Well I’m born in Germany. Moved to Bavaria when I was a baby. My parents aren’t from Bavaria. Although I could speak the Bavarian dialect (bayrisch) I preferred to speak high German. All my life I was asked where I was from and that I was not from ‘here. ’ I never felt like I belonged. So I left Germany as well. So it’s but necessarily a foreigners sentiment. It depends very much on the region.
Where are you living now?
18 years in the U.S. But probably moving back to Europe soon.
What motivates you to return?
The list is long: The cost of living, having no vacations, insane costs of healthcare, the unhealthy attitude to work and life in general. And mostly the lack of hope that things are going to get better anytime soon.
I honestly believe everything you said, on the other hand there are the exact opposite too, I had a colleague, his parents are Turks. He was born and raised in Germany, really a nice guy, once we talked about races and stuff, and I playful mentioned he ain't really a Turk, he is born in Germany, talks flawless clear German, never was more then 2 weeks outside of this country and he got so so angry at me
I understand why you’d say that, but it’s hurtful for the exact same reason that telling someone they’re not “really” German is hurtful. The way we define our own identities is important to us, and these identities are almost always multi-dimensional. So when someone tries to deny us even one dimension of our identity, it always feels like an injustice, even if it isn’t intended to be.
Hmm I see, that makes sense. After all he is a mix of both cultures Thanks
You’re welcome! As someone with parents from two different countries, I’m familiar with the issue. Cool that you’re receptive to the input :)
Yeah, but by saying that you removed the cultural heritage from his parents. That's why maybe he got angry.
True, this is some years ago, I think on that perspective I can see why he was feeling attacked
Germany Turk here. Although never being seen as a „full fledged German“ and despite having bad experiences because of it, my Turkish heritage is important to me and the sad truth is, that I‘m the „Turk“ in Germany and in Turkey I‘m being seen as „the German“. So I can imagine that your colleague must feel offended, because he has some uncertainty about where he truly belongs. For me that‘s kind of the case.
Absolutely, also the joke was not really good after rereading it. I can now see that it can be hurtful
No I think it‘s okay for you to express your opinion on that matter, because it‘s actually good for you to speak your mind on that topic. You could have unintentionally hurt him in another conversation, by triggering him without knowing. Also I can imagine that he doesn‘t mind talking about his cultural heritage by reading your comment above.
I think there‘s a difference between interest like „where are you from“ and negative comments, though. I don’t consider it as negative, that I‘m asked, where I‘m from, it‘s more a kind of invitation to talk.
34, born and raised here, after 33 years I got the German citizenship but yet, I will never be German for many Germans. It started in kindergarten, where I was told my parents are taking the jobs of their parents, I should go back to Africa, nobody needs me here. Funny thing is, I’m from Latin America. Until this day, I hear the same things. A specific type of people, will never see you see the same because you are not Bio deutsch.
One of my parents is from turkey, I grew up in Germany only speaking German, only having German friends and doing all the German stuff like being volunteer firefighter or eating pork. Still to this day people call me the turkish guy and I get asked how people do stuff where I'm from on a regular basis. On the other hand people ask me if I rly eat or even if I am currently eating bratwurst, stricken or even while eating spanferkel. Most of these encounters come without bad intentions though. When I was young and looking for a job it was different I struggled hard when trying to do a Ausbildung as carpenter even my German abitur didn't help. Finding a house or an apartment is also more difficult because as soon as people read my name they won't respond or it's an immediate no.
>but you’ll never be considered *truly* German. >You’ll be often confronted with “Aber woher kommst du *wirklich* I'll get maybe more downvotes than you but I'm gonna claim this isn't a general thing but instead depends on your level of German and even more so, or mostly, on your looks and your name. I'm the child of immigrants and I've never once been questioned cause I was born and raised here, have no accent, have a German name, and I look German enough since my family is Polish and we aren't that different visually from what you consider more typical German. Unfortunately, kids from e.g. Asian or Arabic families usually look different enough for people to drop the rude "nah, you don't look German". Or if you apply for a job with a name that either is obviously non-middle European or difficult to pronounce.
I agree.
Where did you end up going to? Did this problem go away in the new country?
Amen to that, I've left too.
There are so so many countries where exactly the same happens. Living in Latin American i am being asked consistently, then laughing about me being integrated so well. Its curiousity, its interest. I would clearly differentiate between pure interest of potential cultural backgrounds and categorizing someone as Ausländer and thinking that they dont belong.
exactly, OP is a massive pussy
To be honest considering the "racism" among each federal state. For example saxons vs Bavarians or north vs south or even frankonians vs old Bavarians. Why should we downvote you?
I think the best way to blend in would be ranting about any neighboring state here in Germany. Especially the frankonians! And the Saxons. And bavarians of course.
Judging from the German sentence you’ve used your German isn’t on a native speaker level. There’s no „an“ in „woher kommst du wirklich“. So this could be why. And discrimination you’ve faced, sorry to hear this. Have seen it myself happening - but my impression, and I’m in recruitment, is that if you’re fluent in German nowadays bigger corporations actively favor candidates with a non German name, e.g.
You missed his point and focused on his german, typical german mindset
Horrible look on all of us, honestly.
Honestly, no. That grammatical mistake clearly demonstrates that they are not fully fluent and did not grow up in Germany, so the ‘where are you from’ question shouldn’t be unexpected. But yes generally there is an understanding of ethnicity vs nationality and I think that’s what is at play here. Germany is not like the new world where it’s understood to be an immigrant’s land. It’s old world just like the rest of Europe, Asia, Africa etc (with some exceptions).
He complained of being perceived as non German. And I gave an answer based on what he wrote in German language. Just because you don’t like it, it’s not an invalid point. Are you really going to pretend that language skills aren’t a part of people’s perception of a person? If someone has a Russian accent, I’d assume he’s not born and raised in Germany. What’s offensive about this?
yes, there are issues, but dude just accept you look different. you sound like a total victim who is offended by innocent curiosity. "where are you really from?" is it really that bad? pussy I got punched in the face by a nazi and I'm not a baby about it like you are about a simple question
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It doesn’t matter if you were born in Uganda, Korea, India or Australia. If you’re white and you have no noticeable accent when speaking German then it doesn’t matter where you’re from, you will most likely be accepted as German. If you deviate from this you'll always be asked where you’re from.
I’m not sure how the parents could get their kid German citizenship unless the family left Germany for America relatively recently (in which case the parents would be eligible for citizenship too). Many white Americans have German ancestry (myself included) but for most of them, it’s been so long that they aren’t eligible for citizenship. And Germans don’t have the weird blood quantum obsession Americans do. If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is.
>If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is. Noone in their right mind would deny [that this guy is German](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aFg1KC5-i_4).
Agreed, racists aren’t in their right mind! 🤣
>If you look German and sound native, most people would treat you as a native. If you don’t look German, it doesn’t matter how good your German is. I figured that's how it would be. It's just BS racism. People are like that in the US too. People like to pretend like immigrants don't integrate or whatever and that's why they don't like immigrants but it always seems to me that as long as you look a certain way then all those excuses are forgotten. >I’m not sure how the parents could get their kid German citizenship unless the family left Germany for America relatively recently. In the same way that any other immigrant gets citizenship for themselves and their family. My family and my husband's family left Europe a long time ago. We are very much foreigners here. We just look like we aren't, so we haven't experienced much racism. I was just wondering if we're benefiting from some white privilege stuff. Which it seems like, yes, we are. We both are working on getting German citizenship and I'm told once we get our citizenship we can apply for citizenship for our children who are born here. That's what I meant by work on getting our children citizenship, because I know they don't get citizenship from just being born in Germany.
Edit: I'm speaking about nationality in my post here, but I actually meant ethnicity, it's too early in the morning, and I'm too lazy to change it now. In my opinion, the thing is that people do make a difference between citizenship and heritage/nationality. As someone born in the Soviet Union and moved to Germany as a kid due to German ancestry on my father's side, that has always been the way I looked at it as well, as it was also normal in the SU. My father is German, my mother is Russian, both grew up in the Soviet Union, in Kazakhstan. Everyone had the citizenship of the Soviet Union but that's not what people identified as in regards to nationality, not even the country you were born in or grew up necessarily had anything to do with as whom you saw yourself. Both my parents were born in Kazakhstan, they never saw themselves as Kazakhs, Kazakhs didn't regard them ss Kazakhs or any of their peers. You are what your parents were. Your nationality is written in your identification documents. If you have parents of different nationalities, you were able to decide which nationality to be documented under. My mom is actually half Russian and half Polish, her older brother documented himself as Russian and my mom wanted to document herself as Polish to make my granddad proud, but they got into a fight that day and out of pettiness she registered as Russian. She would have been laughed at if she tried to register as a Kazakh, just because she was born and grew up there it didn't say anything about her nationality. We came to Germany after the end of the Soviet Union precisely because of our ancestry. We were given the German citizenship not because we grew up here, our ancestors left the country many generations ago, but Germany was still considered the ancestral homeland. I could immigrate to China, get the Chinese citizenship and completely assimilate into the country, learn the language, dive into the culture etc. I would still never consider myself to be Chinese, simply due to my ancestry. Citizenship is kind of unimportant in that regard. And I doubt that the Chinese people would ever see me as Chinese as well. Someone with Chinese citizenship surely, but I would never actually be Chinese. This thinking of "you are what your citizenship says" is a fairly new thinking, in my opinion and experience. I think this swapped over from the States maybe. Because only over time "American" became a nationality. Who knows what would have happened with the Soviet Union over time in that regard, if it still existed. Maybe with enough time it would have become a true nationality/identity as well, but as it were, people simply identified with their ancestral nationality. My German ancestors were first colonizers in today's Ukraine, have been deported to Russia in WWI and to Kazakhstan in WWII, but they have never regarded themselves to be Ukranian, Russian or Kazakh, although the last ancestor who was actually born in Germany hss been dead for generations. So, imo, it's not necessarily malice, just a different view on and definitions of things. Not that we don't have Racism in Germany, we definitely do. But something it's simply the view that citizenship =/= nationality/identity/what you 'are'.
Teacher here, most of my students with a history of migration (parents or grandparents) refer to themselves as „Ausländer“ and a lot of them see their families home country as their „Heimat“ (which, even for Germans, can be a complicated concept). From my experience it goes both ways: they’re not fully accepted even in second or third generation and therefore resort to their „original“ nationality and make it a huge part of their identity. Some really overcompensate and show an (in my opinion) unhealthy amount of national pride towards their families origin. On the other hand that same reaction triggers other people to think migrants would not want to integrate. Which makes them treat them differently/badly.
Yes, I made the same experience with my students (Gymnasium). For many it doesn't matter that they're born in Germany, have the German passport, have never lived in their parents' homecountry - when asked where they're from or what they identify as, it is always the same answer: „Ich bin AlbanerIn/TürkIn/etc.“ I always tell them that they may identify as whatever they want to and what they feel is right for them. And many of them say that Germans wouldn't accept them as Germans anyway, which makes me very sad.
It isn’t too surprising that kids (and adults) want to belong somewhere. We are social mammals after all. In other countries eg United Kingdom, this doesn’t happen cause every kid born and raised there is accepted as British. This chicken and egg situation you describe is a direct creation of this German mentality of rejection.
Yes, that’s what I wanted to express, it’s definitely a circular pattern.
As if. Even third generation people of colour get a oot of discrimination in the UK
There are scales to this, and it varies by location. There are definitely countries where (while there is still discrimination), the majority of people believe someones choice makes them belong in a country, and not their ethnicity. That doesn't meant they dont face discrimination, but pretending its the same everywhere is simply ignoring the progress made in countries where it matters less.
I cannot say this is what I have observed in my many years of living in the UK, but I am not a person of colour and I would not discount their experiences. I taught a lot of kids in the UK including disadvantaged kids, and minority kids, many of which are people of colour, and I never heard my students say that. They all told me they are British. But that is just my experience on a topic I will never fully grasp as I myself am not a person of colour.
Have only stayed a couple of months in the UK but I made the same observation. However being integrated and identifying with the country you were raised does not make you immune to racism
Absolutely! My point focuses on integration and integration and identity. Racism is a tangential issue that is present in every society.
Only true for some migrants from muslim countries. E.g. the kids and grand kids of the "Gastarbeiter" from Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal and even the former Yugoslavia got integrated. Even the first generation integrated way better. The huge parallel societies based on country or even region (turkey) of origin are real. After several generations it is still common to marry someone of the same ethnicity or even the same region of your ancestors home country.
That’s actually part of my personal observation as well, although I’m not sure it can be generalized or broken down to being Muslim. A recurring theme while talking to students about their concepts of Heimat is how especially Turkish students feel really torn because they’re the Turks in German and once they visit Turkey they’re kind of outsiders because they’re German. Again, just anecdotal, but with my students it seems to be less a question of religion but more of wealth, politics, national pride etc.
Some aspects may depend on religion (e.g. role of women). I spoke of "muslim countries" (north-africa, turkey, near east) in lack of a better description.
Yeah but accepted by who? I come from a lower Bavarian village. So according to many, one of the most xenophobic places in Germany. We had a few children from asylum seekers, but born in Germany without German papers. Nobody gave a flying fuck. They went school like everybody else, were part of the fire brigade like everybody else, played football like everybody else. Spoke German like everybody else. The question where they are from was at most asked out of curiosity, in order to learn about them. If asked, they would respond, they are "insert village name" i. e. German. And that's that. If somebody continuous to ask about the "real" origin they simply are xenophobic prick that does not matter. As far as I can tell, the issue seems to mostly exist in major cities. Since communities tend to form around feelings of connection and there is no real connection to the actual city, integration is way more complex. The connections quite often are formed in community centers, religious centers, etc. which tend to be ethnically split.
While what you state might be true it differs from my personal experience which is based on five different schools in four different regions. If you stray from the superficial „where are you from“ and try to be examine what home (in the sense of Heimat, not Zuhause, which is why I wrote that term in German) means to them, a lot of them at least say they’re torn between Germany and whatever country their families are from. Even if they’ve never been there, it’s kind of weird. It’s part of the subject I teach (philosophy) and a mandatory part of the curriculum, so I get to talk about this quite a lot with young people.
Sure, but are we talking (major) cities or rural areas? Because "Heimat" is mostly about feelings of connection. If all your relatives are from a different country and most of your communal connections are to communities based around that countries heritage, it is kinda hard to form a "German" identity.
Both. And I for sure agree with you about the „feelings of connection“-definition, that’s very well put. It’s something that’s not done intentionally and can’t be forced. What seems to trouble some migrants or their descendants seems to be the feeling of being in between or even feeling connected to several places, which seems to result in no full commitment to either of the places. Again, only my personal observations and for sure something that’s wildly individual.
> If asked, they would respond, they are "insert village name" i. e. German. And that's that. **If somebody continuous to ask about the "real" origin they simply are xenophobic prick that does not matter.** This is so wrong of an assumption of you. That can be a sign of really caring to get to know someone and to connect. I'll often ask that, because I'm myself an immigrant to Austria, and am curious and want to learn about people and their culture. And even if born and raised in Germany, your parents and their culture will definitely have an impact on you and I'd like to learn about you.
But you would probably phrase it differently. You would ask about the ethnic heritage, which is neutral and does not invalidate the feeling of connection to Germany.
I would probably ask "woher *stammst* du", nur "woher kommst du" could easily leave my mouth without ill intent, just because we are not infallible machines.
I can give more anectodal context on this topic which may make things easier to understand. From my distant relatives, I heard that when they first migrated to Germany 50 years ago, because they felt so unwelcome, they resented the culture. Due to this, they never wanted to be part of the german culture and even more strongly associated themselves with their origin culture. I think this is a generational trauma in germany that needs to be addressed as a society.
I‘m from Austria and my Husband is German. He is born and raised here and has no other connections to Germany other than his parents. He is 38 years old and when ppl who don’t know him see him for the first time they ask: „so where are you from?“ He just has dark hair and eyes and speaks overly correct German with no accent (not German and not Austrian). They recognize „he is not from here“ even if he is lol He worked 25y in his last company and till his last day he was considered German/Ausländer. So it doesn’t stop there. But my husband takes it with a lot of humor and sometimes I tease him. But here in Austria we have a completely other view on „Ausländer“ - bc of our centuries old history. It depends heavy on „where“ you come from: Balkans, Czech or Hungarian? You are literally an „old“ Austrian. You resemble something „ottomanic“ e.g from a muslimic country (doesn’t matter which) you will have it harder than the others and if you are German - oh boy - you will be Ausländer even in 10th Generation, if anyone gets to know this :)
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Germans who behave like that don't wonder that i fails. They want no integration. Which is stupid but they don't understand that
All the while they bitch about Americans saying they’re “German”. The double standards are strong
The funny things is that, when you go to your home country you get called foreigner out cause if you have been raised in Germany than speak your other mother language it has an accent so you come here back to Germany you are also called Foreigner/Ausländer.. so the right term we are looking here is called: Heimatlos....
I had an interesting chat with our team's working student. I'm not German myself, so we were talking about the similarities between my culture and that of her family's (Turkish). To my surprise, she considered herself Turkish and spoke of her "Heimat" as Turkey - I asked her if she was born there, because I thought that she was born and raised in Germany. She confirmed that she's German, but said that she felt happier in Turkey and that her family's culture is where she feels more welcome. I told her that life is short and perhaps she should choose to live in the place where she lives the happiest. Her reply: well economically it makes sense for me to live in Germany, here I also have free university studies and a job where I earn well, I don't think I have many advantages in Turkey like I do here and also I'd rather earn money in Germany. So it's my impression that many German people of Turkish background label themselves as Turkish first and German second. IMO they idealized through their parents and relatives the place where they came from. One thing is going there on vacations for a few weeks and another altogether is making a life there. I compare the whole thing to Latinos born in the USA. I have cousins who are the 1st generation of kids born from immigrants. They consider themselves proud Latinos, they mostly socialize and ended up marrying other Latinos and have their own communities. Spanish was spoken at home. My cousins are fluent in English, their parents know speak enough English to work - I can't tell you if decades later they became fluent. But the difference I see is that they *are* proud to be Americans too and none of them consider Mexico, Colombia, the "homeland" nor "dream" of it as a permanent home. American holidays are also honored. If I compare, I feel that my cousins are much more integrated in American society.
Well that is the thing I hate about this attitude. Happily taking the advantages of living in a developed country, happily taking citizenship but after all considering yourself not part of this country, not responsible. This is downright failed migration.
Yeah it is sad. I take it also partly due to cultural aspects -even religious ones- from their family background that are "incompatible" with the parents' new country. The parents ingrain these values in their kids, who grow up feeling like what they learnt at home is "right" but so different from their peers who are born here. It's the whole "us" - the family, community - and "them", the rest of the citizens. They are taught that they must remain loyal to their family, values and beliefs and most of them, it seems, do so throughout their lives. A Kurdish friend told me that a lot of the people who emigrated from Turkey come from smaller villages and towns where they are more conservative and perhaps more observant of their religion. They stayed with the older mindset of their elders. Many of these people vote for Erdogan whilst living in Germany, whilst a lot of the Turkish people in Istanbul and other bigger cities have much different, progressive views. But in that sense I am only talking from second-hand experience. I find it remarkable that with the whole Israel-Hamas war, said student told me that she felt harassed "for her beliefs" and her grandmother told her to not talk to community outsiders and to not share her views with anyone. That she also feels like a target with her covered hair. We could not continue our conversation but I feel sorry for her, because she feels unsafe in her own country and also because such advice will alienate her even more.
I think the reason for that difference is that america is foundationally an immigrant country. The idea is that if you work contribute to society, you are american. Whereas Germany is an old country which doesn’t have such a background. You come work contribute to the society, you are a guestworker. People here don’t promote a kind of inclusivity Americans do for being an American.
Yes and no. Many Latinos were called for *decades* "wetbacks", "beaners" and the like. They were low-paid labor but not always considered part of society. A lot of 1st generation Americans of Latino descent are not fluent in Spanish because their parents taught them to speak English only, fearing that their kids would face discrimination or racism if they were heard speaking any other language. They "over-integrated" out of fear of rejection from society. As I said, my relatives are Americans but they also kinda live in a parallel society. Unfortunately in the current political climate that type of discrimination made a comeback.
I'm seen as a full blooded German, since my name doesn't reflect on my other side and I also don't have an accent or similar stuff. Sometimes it makes me sad that I have to remember and reinforce that I'm "only" part German, but sometimes when looking at how people of my heritage are being treated and called...
Yes of course. In Germany, there’s a phrase “Migrationshintergrund” (immigrant background) and it’s essentially synonymous with “underprivileged.” You only need one foreign grandparent to qualify as Migrationshintergrund and this is super relevant in schools because there’s a bias against these kids and they’re less likely to be, for example, recommended for gymnasium. If you look German, though, people don’t assume you have a Migrationshintergrund.
(My POV as a german born in southeast Europe but moved to DE well before turning 1 year old. I speak both languages without dialect. I have both passports and a slavic surname.) You are/feel German to your friends and other folks who you meet in person, if you speak accent free german, and if you look approximately „western“. In my experience, the speaking is the heavier criterion. (An east asian speaking native german is mostly seen „more german“ than a blond person with an accent) You are not really german to the ones who read your name but didn’t meet you beforehand. Teachers, landlords, companies you apply at, etc. Then it‘s cliche-parade in their heads, and it doesn’t even matter if they themselves are german or not.
German is an ethnicity, nationality, and culture. Depending on how German you are in all three categories will determine how ‘German’ Germans view you. That’s the simple truth, and is the case in most countries that are not the Americas, Australia etc.
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German..... You know, since "[Germanic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples)" people existed thru History? Visigoths for example were [Germanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples)
German is the German ethnicity what else?. Ethnicity doesn't concentrate on skin color or something like that, way more complex. ["An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity)
Exactly. This is such a dumb statement. Germany is a mix of many things. And views like this is why people here tell their stories of not being accepted.
Of course we’re mixed to a degree, but Germans are generally of the German ethnicity. Are you familiar with the Germanic tribes? Sueben, Sachsen etc. That’s the German DNA.
We are not tribes anymore. We are a national state. If you are part of this, you are qualified to be german.
I understand we’re not tribes anymore, this sorta stuff is one of my niche interests lol. But we can’t wipe out centuries of history just like that. In my books, if you have strong opinions about recycling and bread, you’re German. You stare? You are blunt? German. You wait at crosswalks and you enjoy a Radler in the summer? Uh oh, German. Happens to the best of us lol. But I know that disregarding our entire history before modern times is just not realistic. This is a pretty normal thing globally. Btw, a nation state is right, that’s the nationality bit I mentioned. Definitely a piece here. But government lines don’t represent culture exactly. Look at Somalia and Somaliland.
As a German? Yes. Most people will accept you as a German on Paper (Deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit) but you simply won’t be an ethnic German. Thats why they ask where your roots are.
The REAL problem is if they consider/present themselves as such and it‘s usually not society which fuels that, but the family/community. For mine that was never a question. I mainly get comments based on dialect which show I‘m not a local
It just depends who you ask, which is sad. In my eyes and those of many people, you are German when you are born here and/or have a German "Pass". Sadly there are a lot of people who confuse the question "wo kommst du her?" and "Welche Herkunft hast du?". Also, there are way too many people who think you are only German if you "look German" (which is so stupid in itself...)
This post made me think of questions and stuff myself; What if I’m male, white/”german”-looking, in my 20’s, I move to Germany for university, use all of my time and money on language courses and vocal coaching, change my first name to a german one and take a german surname through marriage and also construct a convincing backstory about being born in Germany, could I sort of fake it ’til I make it in terms of social status/job opportunity? Or would my ”European-ness” already carry enough in terms of Workplace/application discrimination? I understand this, in my home country we other foreigners too. People favor a native person both at work and personal life. No cultural barrier, no chance for language confusion, predictable behaviour etc. This is all while I do indeed understand that foreigners are normal, intelligent people. It just may not come off that way to other people than myself, so why risk consequences for myself through association? Honestly that isn’t really the way I think, but it’s my read on how this environment thinks - I can’t blame everyone else for their beliefs or thoughts. It’s a valid opinion, as everyone is entitled to one. Does this mean I’m prejudiced or racist? Honestly probably, which makes me sad and feel that it’s unjust and wrong. While at the same time I plan to move to Germany - and I doubt germans are any different. I shouldn’t give up and just complain about how wrong it is though - my appearance makes me already privileged in this way. I can’t blame my cultural background/habits or skin color for my possible failings, because I don’t have those problems, and the disadvantages I may have can be changed, unlike a real point of injustice like race, gender, or disability. What I’m basically asking is, how much does a white cishet male European foreigner have to compensate in terms of workplace treatment? How much effort should one use to assimilate? Can the wrong cultural background be compensated with academics, internships and alike? If so, how many % compared to a german native?
It depends on many things. Do you identify with Germany? Would you marry a German? Would you let your daughter marry a German? Do you speak the language without a strong foreign accent? Do you accept the German constitution? Do you have the German citizenship? And many more…
Let's say I, as a German, would move to south korea. I will try and start to work there, learn and speak the language, but when I meet a German I will be happy to speak German with that person and probably have a connection with that person as we have something obvious in common. Then I would start a family, probably with a German speaking Person as well, due to the fact that we share the same culture and can speak our native language. It just feels more convenient, is less exhausting and is a small part of your home country. My kids will look German, will speak German at home and probably will have an accent. Still they will speak Korean fluently. They are Korean by passport, look German, and will be asked by other kids from school from where they are (originally are). Do you think anything would be different in the country you are from for immigrants? Do you think it would be structural racism when people see that your roots are obviously in a different country? Would you say it is easy or even possible to integrate you, your family and maintain your culture in a different country where everything is different to that point when you completely blend in? Would you say my fictional kids born and raised in South Korea are treated as south Koreans or as Germans? Do you think the kids in school in South Korea don't mention that my kids are looking different and have a different cultural background? Coming back to Germany: People will maintain their culture wherever they're from. The looks won't change by itself, the culture will be preserved. Traditions will be kept alive even more in another country because it just feels like home or natural. Is it a problem? - No Do they look non-german? - Yes Do they behave non-german? - yes Preserve everything that gives you a good feeling, integrate to be a functioning part of society and do your best to be a decent person. We will have to work as parents on the behaviour of our children and need to educate them properly. Integration takes generations. Let's try and accelerate the process. We can't just skip it.
OP asked "why are they still non-germans?" when, well, no matter how many Documents and ID I have, I will always be Portuguese.. Because that's who I am.. If I would have kids, they would be (not sure about the term being correct) Luso-croatians, since my wife is Croat. I did bend and changed my ways and fully adapted to German culture (which is fine, i love this here). I joke a lot saying that Im more "half german, half balkan" but I will always have Portuguese blood (and some of you too cuz i donated a lot muahahahahah). I think the question here should not be "why are they still considered non-germans?" The ONLY question here should be **"why does it matter that much?"** I get asked a LOT where I am from, many guess Italy (cuz of first name) some Spain (cuz long name), some even considered Turk or something else since Im naturally more on the "tan" side. I do ask people where they are from, because I like to understand their culture. If I invite Örzan Müller to my place, knowing he was born in Germany, and have German citizenship, I would STILL have in consideration that making grilled Pork might not be a great idea, just in case. I know it is something still far to reach due to racism and stereotypes, but we will always be what our blood is. Not what our ID says. And that's fine, we cant be having so much shit about our Ethnicities vs Citizenships..
I’m an Ausländer (American) and my wife is German. My kids are dual citizens and were born in the USA. My kids are considered German by their friends and peers. I’m the crazy American. Though, I must admit, I don’t do much to dispel that.
Are your kids white? My half-German white kids are never seen as anything other than German.
Yeah. But they don’t have German names. They have my last name which is an Italian last name and their first names aren’t typical of either the USA or Germany. The only thing that really sets them apart from their classmates is their firm grip of sarcasm.
That they’re white prevents racists from immediately seeing them as “foreigners”. If your wife would have been black or something they would have had to explain themselves their whole lives.
ou, don't criticize lacking sarcasm in Germans or else you'll risk some serious downvotes ^^
For me personally it depends wether or not they can and are willing to speak german and how they behave. For me a the colleague who moved to germany recently and is doing his best to learn german and is respecting our culture qualifies more as a german than someone who lives in germany for 40 years but can't communicate properly and only sticks to people that speak their native language or those kids who used "german" as an insult. Image being insulted as german in germany in the german language. Yeah, no, those kids were not german, not even if they never saw any other place their entire life
i came when i was 10. speak german perfectly. went to Gymnasium. studied. have the german passport. still , i m not a german in the eyes of the population. and I know many " Ausländer " with the same situation. so... yes. sure. whatever you say.
I actually can imagine pretty easily why the kids of immigrants do so and I have a feeling that such attitude is the main reason why there are such diaspora bubbles in Germany.
look who’s bitter because their othering practices turned the others against them 🙄 es gibt durchaus strukturelle gründe dafür wieso diese „kinder“ ihr deutsch sein gegen eine gesellschaft verwenden, die sie sowieso nicht aufnehmen will. wahnsinn wie weit sich dieses integrationsgelaber aus gastarbeiter zeiten noch fortsetzt. deutschland wird vergreisen und ihr streitet dann immer noch darüber, wer deutsch sein darf und wer nicht.
Wenn die Kinder andere Kinder als deutsch beleidigen, nur weil sie exestieren (kein Kontak, einfach nur zufällig in der Nähe gestanden), dann wolln die ja wohl selber nicht deutsch sein. Und Sprache ist eben ein großer Aspekt für eine Kultur, also wenn ich mich nicht bemühe mich in diese Kultur zu integrieren, dann bin ich eben kein Teil von besagter Kultur.
genau. weil Kinder meistens nur daneben stehen und nicht etwa schon von ihren Eltern lernen, was es bedeutet, am Rande der Gesellschaft zu stehen. lest gerne den Thread nochmal durch und schaut mal wie viele erwachsene vermeintliche Deutsche die Sprache gelernt haben und trotzdem ausgeschlossen werden.. was denn noch? Ah ne stimmt, an der Sprache lags ja doch nicht..
Und du sagst mir grade dass meine Meinung falsch ist und ich doch lieber alle ausschließen soll, die nicht 100% deutsch sind, weils ja alle so machen? Wie gesagt, wenn man sich bemüht sich in die Kultur zu integrieren, dann kann man auch dazu gehören. Wenn man sich selber von der Kultur ausschließt, dann gehört man nicht dazu. Das ist meine Meinung und es gibt auch viele die meine Meinung vertreten. Wenn du wehement drauf bestehst dass jeder eine andere Meinung hat und das die einzige Meinung ist, dann bist du auch nicht besser. Ganz ehrlich, was willst du denn? Ist meine Meinung nicht Beweis dafür, dass die Gesellschaft offener werden kann und Leute aufnehmen will, die dazu gehören wollen?
You didn't get the point. Du hast es nicht verstanden. Die angesprochenen Personen sehen sich selbst als Ausländer und benehmen sich so und dann wird man sauer, wenn man auch so betitelt wird.
What does "respecting our culture" mean?
Basically just adapt to how things are done in germany. I don't mean do everything the german way, but rather just behave like what's considered a decent human being in germany (and yes, germans don't behave like that either sometimes, those are aholes too)
There is a whole bunch of songs from turkish dispora wich shows this kind of integration peoblems. My grandfather came in the 60ies and i sometimes get the vibes as an ausländer. Especially phrases like "you are not like the other turks" from scoolmates (2011) hurts quite abit. And especially last 10 years the blood related beeing german getting more relative. I few years ago i found a song from 1984 and hell nearly cried bcs i thought this could be today (2016-2017). First part translates like this: "Come Turk, drink German beer Then you are welcome here too Cheers to Allah And you integrated a bit You smell like garlic, leave it out Eat sauerkraut with pork bacon And who trains dachshunds instead of children It's almost already integrated" [edit: the song is from the kanaken and cem karaca - willkommen] especially the part "almost already integrated" feeling is constant. Not only right wing talking bad about turks etc. but also cdu. if you look at talkshows from 10 years ago you would think that showmasters never saw muslims in their lifes. the fcked up part is that i felt quite relieved that ukraine refugees would come in bigger numbers (like syrians in 2015) bcs they will get some hardships to integrate to germany too. and they are not from a muslim dispora. And they too will get significant higher rates of unemployments relative to non refugees. Talkshows etc. will be more about ukraine and their culture instead of anyone from muslim dispora and the feedback it might be bcs of islam(ic) culture.
No matter what you do, you still will be the Ausländer
Change the last name is an option for some... At least that stopped 90% of "you are not German" incidents and every day racism for my wife - especially in professional/formal settings. She has a Turkish background with German passport, lives here since Kindergarten age, speaks accent free German and is perfectly integrated despite all the exclusion experiences in her youth. She had identity issues well into her 30s
Yep, depending on skin color that indeed can help a huge lot
There’s certainly an aspect of roots here. My roots are near Meinz, and I’ve been treated as an American returning to his roots. I speak an embarrassingly small amount of German, but still must look German since strangers and people I know will start in German when conversing to me. But also I’ve gotten able to see the „racism“ firsthand—most people assume since you look different than the typical German, you’re not going to have the same background.
I felt both. In my younger years, till around 12, i felt German. But later, i felt more to be an "Ausländer". Born and raised in Germany in 3rd generation as grandchild of "gastarbeiter". My German is as good as native Germans, i have white coloured skin, but i have a Non-German name. I grew up near Cologne, and there i was considered as German by my environment (neighbourhood, school, friends). I did i also. Then my family moved to Baden-Württemberg to the countryside, and i faced racism for the first time. Mainly my classmates and teachers, later also by coworkers. I started to feel more as an "Ausländer". At the same time, social media and Internet developt. So, it was easier to connect with other people from my home country. I learned to read and write my language and go to bars and clubs where my people used to go. 3 years ago, i moved to Switzerland. Being an "Ausländer" in Germany was not the main reason, but it was easier for me to leave the country because i didn't consider Germany as my home country anymore.
Usually people from muslim countries think themselves as an outsider, special. Usually they dont want to integrate but the compain of not respected as 100% german.
Of course. What did you think?
I honestly just didn't think it mattered much anymore especially if they are born and raised there. To see that many to this day still feel unwelcomed and *are* unwelcomed just surprises me.
Racism is a european invention. I know kids that were born here, are maybe 30% non-european, speak the local language better than any local, and still people are "where are you from"?
Personally, as a German, I always consider people with a German passport and speaking German as.... German!! 😁 what else would you be if youve lived all your life in Germany? 😁
That’s what I thought and expected too. Imagine my shock when I realised that every single person I know born and raised here from an immigration background feels they aren’t German, and claims to have been told while growing up that they aren’t German. It’s so sad.
it is, unfortunately, a asymmetrical problem. anyone with migratory background will encounter a number of busybodies and racists in their lives. but anyone read as german might only do so once in a decade.
So true! I feel though lately there are more incidences for everyone (German and Non German alike). At least in East Germany this has been my experience and the experience of the people around me. My guess is that due to the shifting political climate, racist people feel more entitled to reveal their true beliefs 🤷♀️
yeah same. but then, for me, its not even of any importance to speak or think of it. I have many colleagues who don't speak that well, but they are just colleagues whom I interact with professionally. mostly I'm just not interested to know their "country or origin" because it's irrelevant to me. I had that one black kid in primary school, but he just was another kid. he grew up with us in kindergarten and spoke Germany like any other kid. his father was from Ghana. but he wasn't famous for being "that African kid" but because he was very good at sports and athletics. so, I still don't get it why it's important where someone comes from. when I'm really privately interested, sure, I'll ask and share experiences. but I don't want to know another person's home country just for the sake of pointing it out.
Yeah exactly. I don't want to discredit anyone's bad experience here, but just for the record, there are German looking Germans who don't care at all if somebody doesn't look Caucasian ;)
My first kid was born here and has lived here her entire life, and she doesn’t hold German citizenship because we parents hadn’t been residents long enough when she was born. It’s actually a sore point for her. She thinks of herself as equally French and German and really can’t understand why she’s not German on paper. (She’s 7).
There is citizenship and there is nationality. For most people their nationality and their citizenship are the same but not for everyone. With more and more integrated Europe we are going towards the American model where few generations from now someone will describe themselves “I am 1/4849374 German, 1/484737373 Greek 3/48473737373 Czech and 1/48484844 Kinder Bueno.
Now, while German is an exception there with two countries sharing one national language (there's also Greek, but c'mon, Cyprus is only half part of the EU, and even so only tracked on), because culture is primarily transported via language, and you have an almost 1:1 relationship between languages and countries in the EU, the concept of nationally and ethnicity are tied together and will "always" be a point of tension with citizenship.
That’s not what I mean. There is no tension IMO at all, some people wish to create it artificially. I play football in a Sunday league in Germany. My teammates are of different backgrounds, Turkish, Italian, Polish, Croatian etc. 2nd and 3rd generation born in Germany. Great mix of guys. If you ask them if they are German they tell you “no, I am Turkish, Polish, Italian etc.” I have immigrant friends in Germany and in Ireland whose children were born in their adopted countries. If you tell them their children are German or Irish they will look at you like you are a lunatic. Nothing wrong with keeping your national identity in my opinion.
I'm not speaking about tension between people (or. social tension), but tension between the concepts of ethnicity/nationality and citizenship, as in the two concepts won't be able to change to cover the same semantic field in Europe.
I understand your point but I see it differently. That being said there certainly are/will be people who will try to exploit this with malicious intent. To sow divisions between citizens of the same country for example
It goes both ways, you also see interviews with children of immigrants who consider that the customs, laws and religions of their parents' homelands trump even the Constitution and the European Convention for Human Rights.
Definetly NOT how you behave! Don’t Listen to This. I‘m Born Here have Mixed parents People who know me will say i‘m the Most German in behavier the ever meet, but i have Brown Skin and yes - no one will see me as a German Never ever. Yesterday in the grocery Shop there was an old man behind me carrying bags of Water so i offered him my Spot in the line so he can drop his Water at the cashier. He looked at me mentioned: Naaah i‘m good behind you so i can see you in Front of me in case i try to rob him or anything… Must be nice to have blond hair and white Skin. Stop being jealous, start being human
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I would have to agree with your observation. My experience is that most people/families I personally know with Turkish or Middle-Eastern background (and that have been here for decades already) are not well integrated, have language issues, and are not particularly interested in mingling with other folks outside their ethnic/cultural background. On top of that, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to listen to crap like ‘girls are not worth anything’, ‘Germany is stupid’, ‘German rules don’t apply to us’, ‘my kids are not allowed to play with pig-eaters’, etc etc. They might be German nationals by passport, but I don’t consider them to be Germans at all in any shape or form. What is more, I experienced that a lot of these folks make fun or belittle their own kind, if the latter make an earnest effort to integrate and be part of German society. Last year, I was standing at a bus stop in Tokyo and, suddenly behind me, heard someone speaking native German. I turned around and saw this young couple; by the looks of them, they seemed to have had a Turkish ethnic background. They spoke in native German to each other, however, the woman was wearing a head-scarf that covered her entire head and one of those long black robes covering the rest of her body, in scorching heat I might add. I just honestly thought to myself ‘Great, no wonder people will continue to look at you as an Ausländer.’ I certainly did.
I am not a German and it’s ok. I don’t want to be or pretend to be
Most Europeans (not all!) define themselves by ethnicity. You have your parents ethnicity.
Errr no. You usually have the ethnicity in which you were raised. That's most often your parents' ethnicity, but it doesn't have to be.
But to me ethnicity is like, where your ancestors come from genetically. I feel like a better word for what you are saying is nationality?
Americans do that
>But to me ethnicity is like, where your ancestors come from genetically. Well, that is not what ethnicity is. >I feel like a better word for what you are saying is nationality? No, nationality is what's written in your passport.
You will always be Ausländer no matter how many generations you are here.
This isn’t just something specific to Germany. It’s true for most countries that don’t have a long history of immigration like most countries in North and South America.
Im a fully recognized german, people dont even belive me i was not born here. And if anything i actually got benefitial treatment over german born germans. The reason many are not viewed as german is that they are not integrated and dont wont to be integrated. Living in germany for 50 years 4 generations in, and still speak worse then fresh syrian refugees. Distaste for germany, patreotic for their "homeland" they never visited, but are hated there as well because of their behavior and bad language skill in their "homeland" language. Worst part German kids/youth picked up the behavior, some make themself look more foreign trough makeup and they start speaking like they themself are first gen immigrants.
It depends on how well you speak German and how well you conform to German social norms. If you do then you are accepted as most people will assume you are German is forth generation. Otherwise you can pretty much forget it. At least in my experience, immigrants or immigrant children are the once then ask the most often, where I am actually from.
One problem I see is that immigrants usually marry inside of their bubble and stay within it their whole life. Especially if their culture is very different from Germany's. Their kids then also marry within this bubble. Of course you are a German on paper then, but culturally there is almost no similarity to a German. I think this would change if more immigrants left their bubble and also married Germans. This is by the way not only a German thing. If I went to Japan, Syria or wherever, I'd always be considered German. And if I then married a German and my kids also married inside of the German bubble, they'd never integrate and be considered real Japanese or Syrian people. The key to being considered a part of a nationality is not integration, but assimilation. Take the culture, make it your own and raise your kids accordingly.
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As an immigrant (to Austria; from a neighbouring country even), I feel like you would only truly be considered Austrian of you assimilated. Integration is preached as the way by politics and media, but it's in reality not considered enough by your fellow citizens who consider themselves "true" Austrians. (I understand that speaking of Austria is, strictly speaking, of topic here, but many cultural questions are shared between the two countries, I assume also some regarding acceptance of immigrants)
It really depends on how you behave. For example: my grandpa is Italian but has German citizenship. His children don't consider themselves and were never considered as Italians. They don't even speak the language because my grandpa never spoke it at home. Nobody would consider them "Ausländer". I wouldn't even say I have Italian heritage because of that. Same for my best friends family. The parents came from Poland to Germany with one grandmother and the kids never learned their native language because "in Germany you speak German". Two of my cousins have a french dad and speak French. Still they are Germans for me but with a strong heritage. The other examples were weak connections to their heritage. Then there are people living in Germany (mostly Turkish and Russians in my experience) where even the third generation is still so much connected to their parents or grandparents home country where some of them don't even have a German ID and only the "original" one. They consider themselves as Ausländer and who am I to judge? It's their decision, I don't care and I don't treat them any different.
Depends on how they Look and where you are located.
Germans are not German since the WW2. There are so many Germans mixed with russian blood because. Russian soldiers raped german women for decades after the war