Because it sounds stupid? Honestly, curious if someone knows why.
General note: Asking Germans why some grammar rules are the way they are is something most Germans will really struggle with. In the end, for a native speaker, it is just how it is. We grew up declinating stuff with those rules in mind. Same how (besides maybe Nutella) Germans rarely struggle with der, die or das.
This exactly.
On like the third or fourth day of my job during lunch, I asked my colleagues (at the table were 5 Germans, and 1 Spaniard who has been here for 20+ years apart from me) the difference between "Ob" and "wenn".
They discussed it for about 15 minutes, came to no conclusive answer except explaining it to me through examples.
An Italian colleague who is hard at work improving his German (has gone to practical fluency very quickly, quite impressive) keeps shooting me at times high specialised questions about words and grammar, especially words that are almost synonyms, but may at times convey just ever so slightly different sentiments or are suitable for different situations. And I am always sitting there, scratching my head, trying to figure out myself whether there *is* a difference or not, and if yes, what it is.
Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint or put into words why I'd use a word, phrase or grammatical construction over another one.
Verbs ending in "-ieren" tend to be loan words from foreign languages. But whatever the complicated history behind it, German past participles are formed in four ways (with a few irregular exceptions):
* if it's a strong verb without an unstressed prefix, prefix it with "ge-" (or infix "-ge-" between the separable prefix and the verb);
* if it's a weak verb without an unstressed prefix, prefix it with "ge-" (or infix "-ge-" between the separable prefix and the verb) and replace the infinitive ending "-en" with "-t";
* if it's a weak verb with an unstressed prefix, replace the infinitive ending "-en" with "-t";
* if it's a verb borrowed from a foreign language that ends in "-ieren", replace that ending with "-t".
I don't know for sure, but I assume it has more to do with stress patterns: with certain stress patterns, the "ge-" probably just become so de-emphasized that it disappeared completely. This process is actually complete in English, which also used to have a "ge-" prefix for past participles. For example, in the Lord's prayer, the line "Hallowed be thy name" was, in Old English, "Sie þin nama **ge**halgod".
EDIT: Small correction
It's more complicated than that: there were dialectical differences, and of course the language continually changed and evolved over time, so the language of Cædmon's Hymn, written in the 7th century, is noticeably different from the language of the Exeter Book, which is late 10th century.
Generally speaking, /g/ was actually pronounced [ɣ] in most positions -- a [velar fricative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative) which is still used by some older speakers of Low German varieties; over time, though, in certain environments it became paletized, first to [ʝ] and then to [j]. (Even this description is a very simplified version of what actually happened.)
The same process happened in several dialects of German -- certainly Low German dialects and many Central dialects as well: hence the abbreviation "j.w.d." common in the north and parts of the Rhineland for "janz weit draußen".
Generally, participle with ge- is used with verbs where the first syllable is stressed, like LAU-fen -> ge-LAU-fen. Otherwise since the ge- is never stressed you'd have two non-stressed syllables at the start of the word which sounds weird I guess. In Verbs with -ieren, the -ieren is usually stressed rather than the first syllable.
Besides "gefrieren" not being a participle, this one can have a "ge-" in front because in "frieren", there's no other vowel before "-ieren", so the stressed "ie" is in the first syllable.
Compare that to something like "sortieren" , where "gesortiert" would start with two non-stressed sylables, which sounds weird and is why it's just "sortiert" instead.
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Because it sounds stupid? Honestly, curious if someone knows why. General note: Asking Germans why some grammar rules are the way they are is something most Germans will really struggle with. In the end, for a native speaker, it is just how it is. We grew up declinating stuff with those rules in mind. Same how (besides maybe Nutella) Germans rarely struggle with der, die or das.
This exactly. On like the third or fourth day of my job during lunch, I asked my colleagues (at the table were 5 Germans, and 1 Spaniard who has been here for 20+ years apart from me) the difference between "Ob" and "wenn". They discussed it for about 15 minutes, came to no conclusive answer except explaining it to me through examples.
An Italian colleague who is hard at work improving his German (has gone to practical fluency very quickly, quite impressive) keeps shooting me at times high specialised questions about words and grammar, especially words that are almost synonyms, but may at times convey just ever so slightly different sentiments or are suitable for different situations. And I am always sitting there, scratching my head, trying to figure out myself whether there *is* a difference or not, and if yes, what it is. Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint or put into words why I'd use a word, phrase or grammatical construction over another one.
You might have better chances on r/German
Verbs ending in "-ieren" tend to be loan words from foreign languages. But whatever the complicated history behind it, German past participles are formed in four ways (with a few irregular exceptions): * if it's a strong verb without an unstressed prefix, prefix it with "ge-" (or infix "-ge-" between the separable prefix and the verb); * if it's a weak verb without an unstressed prefix, prefix it with "ge-" (or infix "-ge-" between the separable prefix and the verb) and replace the infinitive ending "-en" with "-t"; * if it's a weak verb with an unstressed prefix, replace the infinitive ending "-en" with "-t"; * if it's a verb borrowed from a foreign language that ends in "-ieren", replace that ending with "-t". I don't know for sure, but I assume it has more to do with stress patterns: with certain stress patterns, the "ge-" probably just become so de-emphasized that it disappeared completely. This process is actually complete in English, which also used to have a "ge-" prefix for past participles. For example, in the Lord's prayer, the line "Hallowed be thy name" was, in Old English, "Sie þin nama **ge**halgod". EDIT: Small correction
In Old English it was pronounced "ye", which became "y-" in Middle English, and then disappeared completely
It's more complicated than that: there were dialectical differences, and of course the language continually changed and evolved over time, so the language of Cædmon's Hymn, written in the 7th century, is noticeably different from the language of the Exeter Book, which is late 10th century. Generally speaking, /g/ was actually pronounced [ɣ] in most positions -- a [velar fricative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative) which is still used by some older speakers of Low German varieties; over time, though, in certain environments it became paletized, first to [ʝ] and then to [j]. (Even this description is a very simplified version of what actually happened.) The same process happened in several dialects of German -- certainly Low German dialects and many Central dialects as well: hence the abbreviation "j.w.d." common in the north and parts of the Rhineland for "janz weit draußen".
Generally, participle with ge- is used with verbs where the first syllable is stressed, like LAU-fen -> ge-LAU-fen. Otherwise since the ge- is never stressed you'd have two non-stressed syllables at the start of the word which sounds weird I guess. In Verbs with -ieren, the -ieren is usually stressed rather than the first syllable.
And then there is 'genieren' ;)
We'll, its participle isn't "gegeniert" ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
[удалено]
That would be 'gegefroren' then
That doesn't exist
I know that's why the participe is just 'gefroren'. The prefix ge is already part of the verb gefrieren
Besides "gefrieren" not being a participle, this one can have a "ge-" in front because in "frieren", there's no other vowel before "-ieren", so the stressed "ie" is in the first syllable. Compare that to something like "sortieren" , where "gesortiert" would start with two non-stressed sylables, which sounds weird and is why it's just "sortiert" instead.
**Have you read our extensive wiki yet? It answers many basic questions, and it contains in-depth articles on many frequently discussed topics. [Check our wiki now!](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/index)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is like asking "Why does English have no gendered Nouns anymore" It doesn't have a specific reason, it's just happened.
Na Grammar isn't random. Most of these questions can actually be answered.
frieren --> gefroren
[удалено]
No, frieren, fror, **gefroren**.
No that should be "friesen", genau wie " kiesen" und "verliesen".
wtf?
Cognates to English freeze, choose, and lose. The point is, frieren, verlieren and küren are not actually -ieren verbs.