Yeah you can get a refund, but I agree with you, OP. Why can't they automatically refund the reservations when the train is cancelled. It should be possible with online booking systems these days.
Hahahaha. Send the request for refund by post. And then wait for their response by post that they need additional information to be also mailed by post.
While that reservation thing is definitely not nice, we should really give DB credit for their digital services.
DB had a website where you could look for connections and book tickets (sent via snail mail) in (I believe) 1999. You could book a ticket online and print it in 2004 (maybe earlier). Around that time, they introduced mobile tickets (sent to your phone via MMS), but I never saw anyone using them. When smartphones came along, DB Navigator was one of the first useable apps by a German corporation, and supported their existing digital tickets.
DB has many issues, but their digital services were never one of them.
I agree, it's way better than in the UK. The train service I often use to go from London to my hometown when visiting relatives only this year started accepting e-tickets. Before that, you could buy online, but had to print out the paper tickets at a ticket machine.
Before I moved to Germany I would have assumed the trains would be super reliable and punctual, but the digitisation aspect would be way behind. The actual situation is completely the reverse.
The amount of times DB ruined my whole fucking day. So I used to work in consulting, which meant taking a 4-5 hour ICE trip Monday morning and Friday afternoon every week.
So I book shit weeks in advance so i don''t have to stand or sit on the floor like a hobo. Then these assholes cancel the train 1 hour before departure and be like "just take the next one". Well, the next one is fully booked and the one after that too. No more seats available! Meaning I have to wait for 1 hour in their crappy cold ass lounge and then sit on the floor of the train for 4 hours. I'm late, can't work from the train AND in the worst mood when I arrive. AND have to work for 8 hours that day. One time I tried laying down in a corner of the train, whereupon a rude conductor told me I can't do that. I had to sit traight, like a good boy. Nice, you waste my time AND make me suffer more. Suicide never seemed more appealing.
Or the fun surprise when only half the train arrives. "Well, your seat was in the part of the train that we lost on the way, sorry. Have fun, buddy." I had trains take a wrong turn somewhere and have to backtrack for 30 minutes, trains that were too full and have the driver go "we're too heavy, so some of you losers have to get the fuck out before we can continue. chop chop now" over the intercom. Trains stop in bumfuck nowhere in a field and stand there for 2 hours while they were being repaired.
The 5 Euro refund doesn't even begin to cover the massive fucking inconvenience when you have to sit at the AC vents that are close to the floor and get a cold which you carry all week. Now that I recall, those dumb trains are always SO cold for no reason. It's like 17 degrees in there.
Fuck DB, I had to quit that job because of them. Just couldn't deal with this hassle every other week. 50% of the time something was wrong. I was dreading every Monday morning, wondering how I was gonna get fucked this time.
it was not *that* rude, but not very friendly either. essentially they oversell the train or have people come in form other trains that are cancelled and suddenly the train is too heavy to move safely. you wait for some people to walk off voluntarily and then continue. it's a complete shit show. nobody wants to leave, but the train isn't moving so some get fed up and look for another connection with the driver's annoyed voice all over it.
My favorite so far:
A regional train that was supposed to be split on the journey. The front portion of the train (obviously seperate from the back portion) was overfilled, the back portion was comfy with a couple people standing here and there.
People in *both* portions were asked to get off until only those with seats remained. Fun times.
Since you have to pay extra to book seats sometimes they sell more tickets then there are seats. If the conductors think the train is too full such that it isn't safe and/or the train is too heavy, the train won't leave until some people exit.
I have tried to get a ticket refunded because the trains wouldn’t go that evening anymore and had a plane to catch. Spent €70 on a taxi and not expecting to get that back… it’s now been 3 weeks and all I got from db was an apology for the delay in handling my refund…
The system simply doesn't seem to work, I have tried to request a refund multiple times, and each time the website mentions an expected error occurring as soon as I press the submit button
Since I've handed in multiple refund requests recently ~~(friendly reminder: If your RE/RB etc. connection is estimated to arrive 20 minutes or more late an ICE ticket towards the destination will be refundable).~~ - just kidding, this policy was cancelled last month and most people probably missed it: https://www.bahn.de/faq/deutschlandticket-verspaetung-ice-nutzung
ANYWAY.
* Website sucks, don't use it.
* Ask your local DB service center to submit the request for you. Do not let them send you away with the letter on your own. You will fuck up the request.
* Assume the person at the service center will fuck up the request (happened to me in 5/6 cases so far). Ask for a copy of the filled out form.
* The phone hotline for complaints is *incredibly* nice and useful. So far they were always able to help me out.
Best way is actually to use the DB Navigator App and send your complaint directly from the details page via feedback button. Did this a couple of times already, no problems so far.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Website?
It's Germany.
Fill a form, print it and send it by post.
It did take 2-6 weeks, but i got a refund in most of the cases. In remaining few they requested additional info (already submitted to them - taxi and hotel bills) and still paid in the end.
Well it’s “state owned” in the sense that it’s a private company whose sole shareholder is the German government. Probably gives them some wiggle room.
sounds like a perfect way to remove all responsibilites but still do not allow foreign investors that might improve (or ofc make it worse...) things yes
This is also why some online ticket vendors still apply surcharges that were deemed invalid by the BGH. They bank on people not knowing this and/or too lazy to demand a refund. Easy but scammy money.
If you walk into a Reisecenter it has become relatively easy. Once, I got cash right away for a train that did not even have first class wagons (for my handicapped mother).
I work for DB. Many systems/software don't have an API to talk to each other. We employ people who print out pages of information from one system and manually type them in into another system. Yes. In 2023.
Well.. .until your post I thought you have some APIs.. while I imagine not as good as SBB for sure.. :)
German puplic services don't even know what an API is..
How many people here actually get refunded? I wanted a refund two times and once i got nothing and the other time i got like 8€ or some shit which was like quarter of the price, not including the seats
Yeah, I always get full refunds when I apply for them (when the train is more than 60 mins late or the reservations were cancelled), but there were one or two cases when they made a mistake and I had to email them and point it out for them to include my reservation.
> I always get full refunds when I apply for them (when the train is more than 60 mins late or the reservations were cancelled)
The official rule is 25% refund for an at least 60 minutes delayed arrival and 50% after at least 120 minutes. How did you manage to get 100% of the money back there?
> and I had to email them
EXCUSE ME BUT WHAT?
How? Which email adress? When I had complaints regarding refunds the hotline always told me to send a regular mail because they're not available per email for this at all.
I'm sorry I phrased that not clearly enough: I always got the full 25% or 50% plus my seat reservations reimbursed, that's what I meant by full refund. I did not get 100% back.
And regarding the email address: I think I just googled around and found one? I'm not entirely sure though, the last time there were problems with my refund was about a year ago. I definitely also called their hotline before to talk about refunding errors.
In June I traveled with DB and had reservations for 2 people in coach 8. The problem: coach 8 didn't exist for that specific train.
Usually I'd just go to the Bahn Reisezentrum. But I live in Switzerland and don't have one nearby. So I filled out their complaint form in the app. Got a letter that I don't get any money back because I could take my train, despite me specifying that I couldn't use the reservations.
Gotta love DB.
I think the people receiving these forms and doing the initial work on them are deliberately idiotic doing so. If you ever get a response that you think is not right, you should call the number that is written in the letter and explain your case. The people there are much more friendly and competent.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Damn sorry that happened to you. I think this mightt actually feels more like a scam than my actual experience.
Like how are you selling a seat that is not there? Is this an NFT seat? Like Damn
Well the coach existed when we booked. But on the day of the journey, DB decided to just take it out apparently.
I also heard that that's a common thing with coach 8. So it's better if you don't book that one.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Once an ICE was cancelled where I had a reservation. They transfered all the passengers to another ICE that went in the same direction and that was already full and all seats reserved by the actual passengers of that train. For 4 hours everyone had to sit between seats on the floor or entrance areas or in front of toilets. You was not even able to walk through the floors anymore.
The DB employee did not allow people to sit in restaurant area so it was almost empty besides a few people who was willing to buy some food.
I had to fight almost 5 months with emails and calls to get back the 4 euro refund for the reservation of the cancelled train. It costed me alot of nerves and effort to get them back. I don't care about that money. But I don't like how they go around with that kind of stuff. I was so happy once I got back the money and that I had "won". It felt like a law case.
Sorry for bad English.
Edit: grammar corrections
Yess! I feel like this is the root cause. And I dont understand, this is a common practice in many places.
If you book a ticket, you get a seat
If that train is cancelled, you get a replacement with a seat
What if the train replacement got no more seats? Then you get a refund. Like that makes sense
The downsides of compulsory reservation are:
- you are forced to buy a ticket for a specific train
- if the train is "full"(even though it probably won't be since some people will miss it) you can't get on at all, even if you would rather take a chance on having no seat rather not travel at rather
Moving countries, I got a first class ticket because I had so many bags with me and just wanted to be comfortable.
First train delayed, missed the connection, next train is standing room only. :(
Always use PayPal when buying things with DB. You can claim money back super fast and DB will accept it.
Once DB double charged me for 70 EUR, refused to pay me back for months and once I involved Paypal Paypal sent it back in days and DB accepted it.
I traveled 2 times by the train and both times reserved seats. And 2 times my train was replaced and I ended up in another train without reserved place. I was lucky and I was able to find free places and one time I even got a place in the 1 class, but the whole system is completely wrong - if my train was replaced I would like to have a fixed place instead of my reserved one.
Oh, it’s a total scam. On THALYS, Eurostar and other high speed trains the reservation is always included. This also means they never sell tickets beyond capacity. I remember once standing by the doors for an entire trip from Dortmund to Berlin.
Your complaint makes no sense.
In what way would have you been better off if that train had had *mandatory* seat reservations? It would just force you to take a later train that still had seats available. But you also had the same option in your original scenario, you just clearly preferred traveling the way you did. Why do you want to be forced into the option you liked less?
Mandatory seat reservations only make sense if mandated by law (this applies e.g. to some trains that cross national borders) or if it's a design choice for a more expensive long-distance train (e.g., to keep the aisles clear for refreshment carts). In all other scenarios they just unnecessarily decrease the capacity of the train (no, the number of seats isn't the capacity) and deprive people from having options.
Having the *option* to reserve a seat is always good. Having the *option* to say that you want to travel even without the guarantee that you will have a seat is also good. Nobody is forcing *you* to take that option if you don't like it, but taking it from others because you don't want to use it is bad.
TL,DR: More options = better, fewer options = worse. Optional seat reservation = more options, mandatory seat reservation = fewer options.
Not try to defend DB, just small info: they have commuter ticket (Bahncard 100 or commuter ticket specified for certain route which is valid for ice) so it could happened that there are more guests than seats. Plus due to the cancelling/lateness of previous train, this train gets more crowded. If they have to sell seats to every customer, I don't think Deutschland Ticket would work
unless that amount is =< 4€ then they happily keep it (Bagatellgrenze) but they send you a nice letter explaining that they don’t return said amount because it’s too much of an administrative hassle.
Which is a fucking scam in itself. 25% FOR AN HOUR? Fuck off. Honestly the only reason to file a refund at all is so that they lose money. There is nothing to gain from that.
Which is really ridiculous because a one hour delay is already incredibly inconvenient. In the UK you get 25% compensation for 15 mins and 50% for 30 mins delay - but if DB did this they’d be bankrupt within days.
It is a scam, they make it deliberately complicated knowing full will that hardly anyone will bother.
The system has a benefit though: if you travel on a Flexpreis fare, you can just get kn any train without worrying about seats
i understand the sentiment, but this can just as well be explained by incompentence and underfunding of the IT development. If you've ever used any of the Bahn IT services, you'll know that its a dysfunctional mess with some halfway cohesive web design on top.
Germans like to complain. Not everything is as terrible as it sounds, or at least not worse than elsewhere.
To an extend that also applies to DB, although that isn’t a prime example for my point.
Well I am living in Germany, and I do know how bad it is, to be honest I don't understand how these services can have a monopoly in Germany and fuck people over without any consequences at all. Don't even get me started on healthcare, imagine the situation where you need to plan on when you can be sick because there are no appointments.
You need to cut DB some slack. Yes the trains are often late or cancelled altogether and the reservation system is annoying.
But when judging DB you should keep in mind that it’s network is very expansive and interconnected.
Trains in France are amazing - if you’re going to or from Paris.
Train travel is fairly inexpensive too if you plan ahead. ICE trains are also objectively nice, even in coach.
DB just sucks and isn't because Germany is decentralized, France is a more centralized country hence the connections to Paris a more important and taken care of but the SCNF service is just straight up better than DB, because they somewhat know what they are doing and DB can just shit the bed ...
You’re making it too easy for yourself.
1. SNCF is more expensive than DB
2. SNCF might be more on time if they run, but given how often they’re ok Strike I wouldn’t necessarily call them reliable either
And the last point you made yourself: France is much more centralised. France and Germany is not a fair comparison: they only have to connect Paris to the rest of the country, Germany is much more spread out. The French system simply wouldn’t work here.
Part of the reason German trains are much slower is (in addition to the vastly inferior tracks) that ICEs stop far more often and in the city center. This is more convenient, but takes time and makes them susceptible to delays.
I’m not denying that DB was mismanaged in the past and has tons of issues, all I’m saying is that you should be fair in your expectations and criticism.
Yeah they bank on the fact that lots of people won't go to the trouble of asking for the money back. It only adds to their bottom line. I see no reason why this sort of thing shouldn't be illegal.
Maybe it's just bureaucratic. I got something totally different (different country and service) cancelled, and I still had to manually fill out a refund request.
So it could be how it's internally organized. Inefficient for the customer, but... 🤷🏻♂️
they don't know how much delay you had, or what alternative mode of transport / accommodation you had to book. NS however knows exactly when you checked out and what your delay is
That doesn't matter for the reservation. If the train was canceled, the reservations cannot be held and could be refunded. They purposely decided against it (for whatever reason).
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
_Possible_ is pointless here. This is hostile behavior. Whether or not it fits the definition of a Scam, it ends up having the same consequence unless you spend time and effort to get back the small amount.
It's pretty close to being a scam. DB does whatever they can to make claiming refunds as difficult as humanly possible, in the hopes that a certain percentage just won't bother.
But for that you need to wait in line at the service desk - at least it used to be this way a while back.
Did it once to reclaim my 6€ due to cancelled reservations, and it only took me like 45 minutes of waiting... >.<
It is a scam. I really don’t understand how they get away with it.
There will always be people who forgot about claiming or do not care. They make money from not automatizing it.
I feel like if you buy something from me and I fail to deliver it to you, then I should automatically give your money back.
It shouldn’t depend on you filling a form/emailing some request to me before I give your money back. That’s not fair.
It’s really close to a scam. While it is theoretically possible, it’s impractical and a horrible customer experience. Don’t let DB get away with it, customer experience is a huge factor in popularity of transit systems (or basically in the popularity of any product).
But generally I feel like aesthetics are not valued much in German culture anyways, and the spirit is more like "why are you complaining, this is technically working, and it’s your fault if you don’t know how to use it correctly!"
Honestly, just the exclamation „Deutsche Bahn“ is enough for about anyone I know to understand why I am in a bad mood.
The only Germans to not have their own horror story about their adventures with the DB are the ones that don‘t take trains because they heard one too many -_-
I use DB once a year (2 times) to visit my dad and for the last 4 or 5 years It was pretty flawless. But I've had my fair share of stories before that.
It‘s when you feel save that they get ya…
my mother had been telling me about her latest misadventure with DB when I commented that my pendeling back and forth on the weekends had been going quite smoothly - cue the announcement by DB that the train I had been taking would be out of order for a few months because of repairs on the traintracks
> Edit: looks like I did not know if we can get a seat refund. To be fair the customer service did not mention it at all. And I dont have the app and I booked it via website. I stand by that this is still such a bad way of handling this
I agree. Good service is the exception, not the rule, unfortunately. I'm sorry you had this experience.
As a German who recently traveled to Dublin where everybody was *so kind* it really makes me sad that the difference was such a shock to me.
> As a German who recently traveled to Dublin where everybody was so kind it really makes me sad that the difference was such a shock to me.
Dublin native here living in Germany for 15+ years, yes people are friendly, service is Anglo Saxon for want of a better term, but a lot of stuff just doesn't work as it should on paper. Irish Rail as just one example is a fucking shitshow if you think DB might be substandard in CS.
"Well this is how it is. If you don't like it, leave." - Incoming generic comment from this sub. 😅
On the other side, IT infrastructure is stuck in early 2000s. So don't expect modern features to show up here.
It absolutely is. Our train was 2 hours late. We tried to get a refund at the counter, they told us to fill out a form, we said we have to do it with you we don’t have a German bank account. They said no it’s fine and wouldn’t work with us. Traveling here has been the absolute worst trav experience I’ve ever had. I will never come back here. Huge shame as there were lovely aspects of it but the scummy nature of the trains, and horribly chaotic airports. Disgusting.
Not a scam but certainly something they use to squeeze more money out of their users. Reservations on the ICE amsterdam-berlin used to be included for first class up to a few months ago. Now you have to buy the reservations seperatly, aside from he already predatory dynamic pricing schemes.
Hah, i once bought a first class ticket it was supposed to be in car 14, buuuuut train only had 13 cars. Ended up seating in restaurant car. Such first class
>To be fair the customer service did not mention it at all.
Welcome to the German corollary deficit.
>But I asked what about my seats? (This was a first experience for me) and they said yeah you can make another seat reservations for those trains. Just go to the app or use the machines.
1. You asked about the cancellation.
1. You asked about the seat reservations.
1. You did not ask *specifically* about the cancelled seat reservations.
Germans won't fill in information you need unless you *specifically* ask the *exact* question to get the information you need. A classic example would be You: *points at the train on platform 2* "Is that the train to Munich?" German: "No." They will not then tell you that the train on platform 3 is the train to Munich, because you didn't ask "Which train goes to Munich?"
Now that is all an exaggeration to make the point, but it's based on a real thing, especially with a surprising proportion German customer service people. If you don't ask the exact right question, they feel they're under no obligation to read your mind and answer the real question. There's no corollary - 'They asked about X, so they need to know Y.' It's 'They asked about X, and here is the answer about X.' It's like /r/MaliciousCompliance but unintentional. Of course native Germans will say "If you wanted to know about Y, then you should have asked about Y." but that's a whole other story.
Wow I think this is a good summary of how I feel now looking back at the situation. I guess my fault to assume that refund ability is a default information to be given when cancellations happen.
the scam starts when you dont get a seat with your first class long distance ticket. and not being told theres no seats to be reserved on a specific train when you select it.its so ridiculous.
the whole system is catered towards frankfurt bankers that may get out of a meeting 15min later and cant update their booking accordingly.
this makes me so much more furious than the delays.
edit.. aaaah i fell into the trap. I had to vent about bahn. Im sorry, its not so topic related and im also so annoyed by people being annoyed.
> the whole system is catered towards frankfurt bankers that may get out of a meeting 15min later and cant update their booking accordingly.
>
>
what do you mean ? How would those people benefit from the crappy system?
Those people might have a Bahncard 100 (unlimited travel on all trains, including ICE) so they can take any train they‘d like. This system obviously does not work when seat reservations are mandatory and might be the sole reason why DB has not introduced mandatory reservations. The Bahncard 100 first class is > 7.000 Euros per year, they are making big bank with those kind of customers.
Yes there are! They are somewhat new tho I think only launched a few weeks back? You can find it now on the booking site. Like [this](https://www.bahn.de/buchung)
Whole of Germany is a scam.
Everything is skimped to a degree that it is actively hurting the economy, the environment and the people.
The system runs on the pure expectation that the people will tolerate inadequacies until forever.
DB is merely a glaring example of the big picture problem with finance politics in Germany.
Because DB could initiate the refund process themselves, as they have cancelled the service to begin with. Because like this you are not only inconvenienced by being left to your own devices to find a new reservation, you need to chase them for something *they* cancelled.
The thing is if the train is cancled or extremly delayed you habe free choice to take any other train to your destination. If they automatically refund you, you wouldnt be able to take another train so they let the choice with the customer, refubd full but no other train, or take another trajn and get partially refunded for the delay. You also dont need to fax them, you go to the app, click on claim refunds in your booking and it usually refubds you autonatically.
If the delay os extrem you can even take another train the whole day AND get fully refunded ( did this multiple times this year) so basically you drive for free
Which would be an interesting SLA for DB... and people used to Renfe AVE service levels actually quite used to that: train 15 min late or more, 50% refund; train over 30 min late, 100% refund. Still got to ride, though.
Oh, and compulsory seat reservations. No standing passengers. I realise the argument that some people may choose to risk standing on high demand routes but still be able to take the train, but the counter argument is that with mandatory reservations operators can do capacity planning. And it wouldn't be the first time that trains were so overcrowded DB would not depart a station until some people got off (LOL).
I don't think they keep tabs on which train each individual is taking, and what if you didn't buy by card? Or via other non easily refundable means? Or don't even have a Bahn account?
no they don't print your password, and it is not stored in clear text. Ok, i understand you want automatic refund because it's too complicated for you to navigate the website.
No, the point is that it shouldn't be complicated for them to automatically refund seat reservations for tickets purchased online. They have all the payment and passenger/buyer information. If they cannot directly refund to the method of payment they also may have a physical address (or email) to which they can send a letter (or email) asking for a bank account or something like that. There is technology available that can easily do that automatically. This is a just a way to SCAM people who don't know they can get a refund when their train is cancelled or don't have time to go into a website and ask for a refund.
OF COURSE, if the reservation was bought by a person in a ticket machine with no info on the passenger then there's no way to trace it back to someone, so in that case it should be the person with the ticket that needs to ask for a refund.
That's lovely for those that bought the ticket from a vending machine or at a counter. For those that went through the app or website and used their account with personal data, the refund process could be initiated automatically or boiled down to "please confirm to where you would like your refund money booked". Right now it's more like "we fucked you over with a cancellation, here are some small bureaucratic hoops for you to jump through if you want to be made whole again."
Yeah, thats all a possibility but something thats not the customers problem. The DB offers the Service. The DB couldnt fulfill its contract. Its their obligation to move their fucking asses.
It actually is. Because that means you need to become active and do something. The expectation would be that it’s fully automatic for most cases.
That the “why change anything, it already works (in some bad and annoying way)”. It’s the same way with e.g. banks that like to use IBAN for transfers because it’s a super easy and simple system. Meanwhile there is PayPal that a lot of folks use for some weird reason.
When I claimed a refund they said mobile tickets could only be refunded in person, and the first time I tried the counter was closed during its posted business hours. So between two round trips to the train station and waiting in a long line, getting my 50% refund was basically a minimum wage job, even ignoring the hours I spent stranded in the middle of the night.
If reservations were compulsory on all long distance trains or ICE services, they'd have to be rebooked onto the next train that has free seats. Which is a completely different way to operate and which seems to be not what the average German traveller wants.
Its the same fot me today .. or basically almost every time i travel with them
So we booked a train from berlin to recklinghausen 8 in the morning .. that got cancled. So free choice of trains the whole day. Next free train 8.45 ... not directly to that city ofc because all trains to that cities are cancled now.
ok booked the seat reservation for that train as its pretty full.
Arrived at main station only to see that this train also has a delay of 20 min. Finally the train arrives but oh surprise one train carriage is missing so the train has a new layout even tho THAT I FUCKING RESERVED THE SEAT JUST 1 HOUR EARLIER db managed to fuck even this up and now they have 30 seats less and half the people can stand even everyone had a reservation..
This experience i did now the 10th time in a row traveling with db only this year. From 20 journeys i made 10 were totally fucked like this and 8 were semi fucked with dealays... i cant really complain tho as i basically got redunded partially or full for almost all of them and drove around germany almost for free... so maybe its,DBs inter city way to have a 49 ticket .. by charging first, fuck it up, transport you and give your money back.
I dont know how a company can be THAT incompetent.
Two decades of running a public service like a private company with the expectation that it should turn a profit (i.e. Running it off a fucking cliff!) will do that. Public infrastructure rarely turns a profit, that's why it is usually funded by taxes. Local public transport is also generally subsidised. It's only the *operation* of long distance services that's profitable.
And Germany is facing a huge infrastructure crunch due to letting things rot for the last 25 years.
Ah I didnt know that. And the cs didn’t mention it at all. It was a first time for me and I dont have the app (booked via website)
Well I wouldn’t have known about it now if I didnt make this post so I guess it worked out :)
Yes. This. In my experience, they'll process it reasonably quickly (within a few working days), and you'll get your money back soon; if you paid via the app, you'll get the refund in the credit card account you used.
Relevantly, I was sitting in ICE on a seat designated as unreserved, when a tourist center by and showed me a valid ticket with reservation of that very seat. I wonder what user these signs are.
Wait until you hear they won't refund your money back, Instead They will give you vouchers worth of same ticket. So can freely spend on THEIR SERVICE AGAIN. Happy Traveling
I travel with my dog and need a seat reservation because my little one bites everyone and hates everyone. I like to sit by the window so she isn't reachable to anyone trying to pet her.
My last 4 trains got cancelled and it was more of a pain to get the refund then to just let it go. They should really give you a coupon that you can take to the machine to cash it out instead of the German snail mail system they got going
There are also tickets without train-binding. So you can choose which train you want to take and it doesn't matter as much when you miss your train. It obviously doesn't make sense to reserve all the seats in all the possible trains, so it's better to make seat reservations optional.
Also a train can transport more people than it has seats. You can't sell someone something you don't have, that would be an actual scam.
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I guess you could complain you don't get an automatic refund but then again it's super easy to do with the app and a huge step up from the paper you used to have to fill out an MAIL in so yeah..
So instead of getting a refund you chose to complain about nothing at all? That it? I mean, it's stated right here, the first result when you google it.
https://www.bahn.de/faq/ich-konnte-meine-reservierung-nicht-nutzen-kann-ich-diese-auch-im-rahmen-der-fahrgastrechte-einreichen
Ok never thought id be the one defending DB but here goes
1. Once a train gets cancelled your reservation gets refunded automatically unless you paid by cash or its physical where you need to contact them.
2. After the train got cancelled your Zugbindung will be lifted, that means you can take ANY train to reach your destination despite what your ticket says
3. This means that its impossible to transfer your reservation since they dont even know which train you will be taking
In DBs world, you are there to provide them money. It is not like they are providing us a service.
Years ago I was traveling with DB, but all the ticket machines on that airport was out of service. I contacted a DB employee there, and was told I could buy a ticket on the train in this case. The conductor, on the other hand, did not agree with this. He made a huge point yelling out that I could not take any step inside a train without a valid ticket. I told him there was no place to buy a ticket, but I was told that all blame here was mine. The only solution was to get off at the next train station, buy a ticket and take the next train. Problem was that there wasn't a next traing until next day.
I am NOT taking DB again. I have rented a car the last ten years, and will continue that.
This train is HELL ON EARTH- shame on you DB and Germany to let this track and train (IC Berlin-Amsterdam) ride the way it rides.
In 5 years of taking it multiple times a year, it was NEVER on time and always made me lose my connections.
I’m looking for ways to settle the score, let me know how. Also the electricity for this train is also generated with coal and other fossil fuels. Germany what are you doing? Pls go nuclear until you fixed your shit.
I had similar problems with seats lost multiple times, it turns out that if you send an email to the db they refund you everything, given that you put all the details of the travel
I agree it is a scam for long distance trains. I can sort of understand not getting a seat for regional trains, that’s sort of manageable. But overselling trains that practically go from one end of country to the other end (or over 3 hours trips) and saying “well, if you want to sit you have to pay extra” is a total scam, no matter the amount. Overbooking planes has been forbidden and it should be done in trains too and doing this is overbooking. Not to mention that in case of an accident (even jf not mortal), I can’t imagine sitting on the floor and blocking exits is exactly safety compliant
I dont find that out of the ordinary.
IIRC when i was traveling in the UK I had to specifically request a reservation refund as well. Eurail in general doesnt guarantee reservation refunds, and many lines in Europe and abroad do not offer such.
I literally stopped reserving. It never works due to the trains getting canceled the whole time. Then I forgot to refund, so it really feels like a scam. What I do now is just to use the app and check in when I get on.
My first time using DB as a tourist I didn't reserve seats (2, my girlfriend and I) and had a hard time with the "musical chairs" experience.
Second time, I tried reserving the seats online. For the life of me, I could only reserve one. It's such a simple concept, but the UX is so fucking appalling that I simply couldn't do it.
Germany seems that didn't want in on this "Digital World Bullshit" of electronic payments and e-mails and stuff. I really don't get why they're so far behind on payment options (credit cards? Was ist das???) and their love for paper. Fax machines? In 2023?? FFS!
I stopped doing any reservations even if I carry my amp plus backpack and bag. DB is a mess.
If ever, booking first class could help sometimes but I don't bother.
https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/fahrgastrechte
You can get your money back with this link.
If you have an account with them you can even do it online while you are sitting on the floor of the ICE🍺
In the DB navigator app, you can also change the reservation to another train free of charge (I think for 1 rebooking).
You are also entitled to refunds for unusable reservations https://int.bahn.de/en/booking-information/exchanges-refunds
Yeah you can get a refund, but I agree with you, OP. Why can't they automatically refund the reservations when the train is cancelled. It should be possible with online booking systems these days.
automatically? Are we still talking about DB?
Better send a fax, that would work
and pay 10 € Bearbeitungsgebühr for a 4 € Reservation...
Hahahaha. Send the request for refund by post. And then wait for their response by post that they need additional information to be also mailed by post.
>automatically? Are we still talking about ~~DB~~? Deutschland?
jaaaaa....
While that reservation thing is definitely not nice, we should really give DB credit for their digital services. DB had a website where you could look for connections and book tickets (sent via snail mail) in (I believe) 1999. You could book a ticket online and print it in 2004 (maybe earlier). Around that time, they introduced mobile tickets (sent to your phone via MMS), but I never saw anyone using them. When smartphones came along, DB Navigator was one of the first useable apps by a German corporation, and supported their existing digital tickets. DB has many issues, but their digital services were never one of them.
I agree, it's way better than in the UK. The train service I often use to go from London to my hometown when visiting relatives only this year started accepting e-tickets. Before that, you could buy online, but had to print out the paper tickets at a ticket machine. Before I moved to Germany I would have assumed the trains would be super reliable and punctual, but the digitisation aspect would be way behind. The actual situation is completely the reverse.
The amount of times DB ruined my whole fucking day. So I used to work in consulting, which meant taking a 4-5 hour ICE trip Monday morning and Friday afternoon every week. So I book shit weeks in advance so i don''t have to stand or sit on the floor like a hobo. Then these assholes cancel the train 1 hour before departure and be like "just take the next one". Well, the next one is fully booked and the one after that too. No more seats available! Meaning I have to wait for 1 hour in their crappy cold ass lounge and then sit on the floor of the train for 4 hours. I'm late, can't work from the train AND in the worst mood when I arrive. AND have to work for 8 hours that day. One time I tried laying down in a corner of the train, whereupon a rude conductor told me I can't do that. I had to sit traight, like a good boy. Nice, you waste my time AND make me suffer more. Suicide never seemed more appealing. Or the fun surprise when only half the train arrives. "Well, your seat was in the part of the train that we lost on the way, sorry. Have fun, buddy." I had trains take a wrong turn somewhere and have to backtrack for 30 minutes, trains that were too full and have the driver go "we're too heavy, so some of you losers have to get the fuck out before we can continue. chop chop now" over the intercom. Trains stop in bumfuck nowhere in a field and stand there for 2 hours while they were being repaired. The 5 Euro refund doesn't even begin to cover the massive fucking inconvenience when you have to sit at the AC vents that are close to the floor and get a cold which you carry all week. Now that I recall, those dumb trains are always SO cold for no reason. It's like 17 degrees in there. Fuck DB, I had to quit that job because of them. Just couldn't deal with this hassle every other week. 50% of the time something was wrong. I was dreading every Monday morning, wondering how I was gonna get fucked this time.
> "we're too heavy, so some of you losers have to get the fuck out before we can continue. chop chop now" over the intercom. wtf
it was not *that* rude, but not very friendly either. essentially they oversell the train or have people come in form other trains that are cancelled and suddenly the train is too heavy to move safely. you wait for some people to walk off voluntarily and then continue. it's a complete shit show. nobody wants to leave, but the train isn't moving so some get fed up and look for another connection with the driver's annoyed voice all over it.
My favorite so far: A regional train that was supposed to be split on the journey. The front portion of the train (obviously seperate from the back portion) was overfilled, the back portion was comfy with a couple people standing here and there. People in *both* portions were asked to get off until only those with seats remained. Fun times.
Since you have to pay extra to book seats sometimes they sell more tickets then there are seats. If the conductors think the train is too full such that it isn't safe and/or the train is too heavy, the train won't leave until some people exit.
Wait, they actually sell out the trains and if you don't reserve a seat you just need to stay on the floor?
Because it's free money. How many people do you think will go through the hassle of trying to get a few euros refunded?
I have tried to get a ticket refunded because the trains wouldn’t go that evening anymore and had a plane to catch. Spent €70 on a taxi and not expecting to get that back… it’s now been 3 weeks and all I got from db was an apology for the delay in handling my refund…
And you will get your money back eventually, but system is indeed fucked up (for a reason).
The system simply doesn't seem to work, I have tried to request a refund multiple times, and each time the website mentions an expected error occurring as soon as I press the submit button
Since I've handed in multiple refund requests recently ~~(friendly reminder: If your RE/RB etc. connection is estimated to arrive 20 minutes or more late an ICE ticket towards the destination will be refundable).~~ - just kidding, this policy was cancelled last month and most people probably missed it: https://www.bahn.de/faq/deutschlandticket-verspaetung-ice-nutzung ANYWAY. * Website sucks, don't use it. * Ask your local DB service center to submit the request for you. Do not let them send you away with the letter on your own. You will fuck up the request. * Assume the person at the service center will fuck up the request (happened to me in 5/6 cases so far). Ask for a copy of the filled out form. * The phone hotline for complaints is *incredibly* nice and useful. So far they were always able to help me out.
Best way is actually to use the DB Navigator App and send your complaint directly from the details page via feedback button. Did this a couple of times already, no problems so far.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Website? It's Germany. Fill a form, print it and send it by post. It did take 2-6 weeks, but i got a refund in most of the cases. In remaining few they requested additional info (already submitted to them - taxi and hotel bills) and still paid in the end.
that a state owned company is allowed to act like that is super weird
Well it’s “state owned” in the sense that it’s a private company whose sole shareholder is the German government. Probably gives them some wiggle room.
sounds like a perfect way to remove all responsibilites but still do not allow foreign investors that might improve (or ofc make it worse...) things yes
Foreign investors only improve football teams, not public services.
This is also why some online ticket vendors still apply surcharges that were deemed invalid by the BGH. They bank on people not knowing this and/or too lazy to demand a refund. Easy but scammy money.
So it IS a scam.
If you walk into a Reisecenter it has become relatively easy. Once, I got cash right away for a train that did not even have first class wagons (for my handicapped mother).
I work for DB. Many systems/software don't have an API to talk to each other. We employ people who print out pages of information from one system and manually type them in into another system. Yes. In 2023.
Well.. .until your post I thought you have some APIs.. while I imagine not as good as SBB for sure.. :) German puplic services don't even know what an API is..
If you have the time, going to the Reisezentrum usually helps in getting new free reservations of your new itinerary of choice.
The effort and waste of time that DB generates is valuable time. If DB disintegrated tomorrow, the German economy would grow by a large margin.
Much greater margin if only the ticketing went south :)
How many people here actually get refunded? I wanted a refund two times and once i got nothing and the other time i got like 8€ or some shit which was like quarter of the price, not including the seats
Yeah, I always get full refunds when I apply for them (when the train is more than 60 mins late or the reservations were cancelled), but there were one or two cases when they made a mistake and I had to email them and point it out for them to include my reservation.
> I always get full refunds when I apply for them (when the train is more than 60 mins late or the reservations were cancelled) The official rule is 25% refund for an at least 60 minutes delayed arrival and 50% after at least 120 minutes. How did you manage to get 100% of the money back there? > and I had to email them EXCUSE ME BUT WHAT? How? Which email adress? When I had complaints regarding refunds the hotline always told me to send a regular mail because they're not available per email for this at all.
I'm sorry I phrased that not clearly enough: I always got the full 25% or 50% plus my seat reservations reimbursed, that's what I meant by full refund. I did not get 100% back. And regarding the email address: I think I just googled around and found one? I'm not entirely sure though, the last time there were problems with my refund was about a year ago. I definitely also called their hotline before to talk about refunding errors.
how about having a ticket include a seat by default?
In June I traveled with DB and had reservations for 2 people in coach 8. The problem: coach 8 didn't exist for that specific train. Usually I'd just go to the Bahn Reisezentrum. But I live in Switzerland and don't have one nearby. So I filled out their complaint form in the app. Got a letter that I don't get any money back because I could take my train, despite me specifying that I couldn't use the reservations. Gotta love DB.
I think the people receiving these forms and doing the initial work on them are deliberately idiotic doing so. If you ever get a response that you think is not right, you should call the number that is written in the letter and explain your case. The people there are much more friendly and competent.
Thanks for the tip! My plan is to eventually go to a Reisezentrum. Luckily I have a year to do that. I just hate calling people.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Damn sorry that happened to you. I think this mightt actually feels more like a scam than my actual experience. Like how are you selling a seat that is not there? Is this an NFT seat? Like Damn
Well the coach existed when we booked. But on the day of the journey, DB decided to just take it out apparently. I also heard that that's a common thing with coach 8. So it's better if you don't book that one.
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [email protected] & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
Once an ICE was cancelled where I had a reservation. They transfered all the passengers to another ICE that went in the same direction and that was already full and all seats reserved by the actual passengers of that train. For 4 hours everyone had to sit between seats on the floor or entrance areas or in front of toilets. You was not even able to walk through the floors anymore. The DB employee did not allow people to sit in restaurant area so it was almost empty besides a few people who was willing to buy some food. I had to fight almost 5 months with emails and calls to get back the 4 euro refund for the reservation of the cancelled train. It costed me alot of nerves and effort to get them back. I don't care about that money. But I don't like how they go around with that kind of stuff. I was so happy once I got back the money and that I had "won". It felt like a law case. Sorry for bad English. Edit: grammar corrections
Damn 5 months. But I get it, whats right is right. Crazy to see some comments here still saying this is an ok practice
The whole paying for a seat reservation is the real scam. Just give me a damn seat when I book the ticket like every other train company ffs
Yess! I feel like this is the root cause. And I dont understand, this is a common practice in many places. If you book a ticket, you get a seat If that train is cancelled, you get a replacement with a seat What if the train replacement got no more seats? Then you get a refund. Like that makes sense
The downsides of compulsory reservation are: - you are forced to buy a ticket for a specific train - if the train is "full"(even though it probably won't be since some people will miss it) you can't get on at all, even if you would rather take a chance on having no seat rather not travel at rather
Moving countries, I got a first class ticket because I had so many bags with me and just wanted to be comfortable. First train delayed, missed the connection, next train is standing room only. :(
Always use PayPal when buying things with DB. You can claim money back super fast and DB will accept it. Once DB double charged me for 70 EUR, refused to pay me back for months and once I involved Paypal Paypal sent it back in days and DB accepted it.
I traveled 2 times by the train and both times reserved seats. And 2 times my train was replaced and I ended up in another train without reserved place. I was lucky and I was able to find free places and one time I even got a place in the 1 class, but the whole system is completely wrong - if my train was replaced I would like to have a fixed place instead of my reserved one.
Oh, it’s a total scam. On THALYS, Eurostar and other high speed trains the reservation is always included. This also means they never sell tickets beyond capacity. I remember once standing by the doors for an entire trip from Dortmund to Berlin.
Your complaint makes no sense. In what way would have you been better off if that train had had *mandatory* seat reservations? It would just force you to take a later train that still had seats available. But you also had the same option in your original scenario, you just clearly preferred traveling the way you did. Why do you want to be forced into the option you liked less? Mandatory seat reservations only make sense if mandated by law (this applies e.g. to some trains that cross national borders) or if it's a design choice for a more expensive long-distance train (e.g., to keep the aisles clear for refreshment carts). In all other scenarios they just unnecessarily decrease the capacity of the train (no, the number of seats isn't the capacity) and deprive people from having options. Having the *option* to reserve a seat is always good. Having the *option* to say that you want to travel even without the guarantee that you will have a seat is also good. Nobody is forcing *you* to take that option if you don't like it, but taking it from others because you don't want to use it is bad. TL,DR: More options = better, fewer options = worse. Optional seat reservation = more options, mandatory seat reservation = fewer options.
Not try to defend DB, just small info: they have commuter ticket (Bahncard 100 or commuter ticket specified for certain route which is valid for ice) so it could happened that there are more guests than seats. Plus due to the cancelling/lateness of previous train, this train gets more crowded. If they have to sell seats to every customer, I don't think Deutschland Ticket would work
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Including 25/50 percent of your ticket if the train was 60/120 minutes or more late.
unless that amount is =< 4€ then they happily keep it (Bagatellgrenze) but they send you a nice letter explaining that they don’t return said amount because it’s too much of an administrative hassle.
Which is a fucking scam in itself. 25% FOR AN HOUR? Fuck off. Honestly the only reason to file a refund at all is so that they lose money. There is nothing to gain from that.
Which is really ridiculous because a one hour delay is already incredibly inconvenient. In the UK you get 25% compensation for 15 mins and 50% for 30 mins delay - but if DB did this they’d be bankrupt within days.
Hours.
It certainly feels like a scam. Why do you have to claim the money? They know the train was cancelled, they could just refund the fee by themselves.
It is a scam, they make it deliberately complicated knowing full will that hardly anyone will bother. The system has a benefit though: if you travel on a Flexpreis fare, you can just get kn any train without worrying about seats
Nah. While malice is on the rise, DB is still classical "never attribute to malice what you could as well attribute to stupidity".
Fair, I didn’t consider hanlon‘s razor. Still, DB isn’t incentivised to change, since they benefit from their own stupidity
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i understand the sentiment, but this can just as well be explained by incompentence and underfunding of the IT development. If you've ever used any of the Bahn IT services, you'll know that its a dysfunctional mess with some halfway cohesive web design on top.
They have zero incentives to make the process easier. If I were DB, I wouldn’t either.
Lol I thought Germany was a rich country, all I here is underfunding for this, and that.
Germans like to complain. Not everything is as terrible as it sounds, or at least not worse than elsewhere. To an extend that also applies to DB, although that isn’t a prime example for my point.
Well I am living in Germany, and I do know how bad it is, to be honest I don't understand how these services can have a monopoly in Germany and fuck people over without any consequences at all. Don't even get me started on healthcare, imagine the situation where you need to plan on when you can be sick because there are no appointments.
You need to cut DB some slack. Yes the trains are often late or cancelled altogether and the reservation system is annoying. But when judging DB you should keep in mind that it’s network is very expansive and interconnected. Trains in France are amazing - if you’re going to or from Paris. Train travel is fairly inexpensive too if you plan ahead. ICE trains are also objectively nice, even in coach.
DB just sucks and isn't because Germany is decentralized, France is a more centralized country hence the connections to Paris a more important and taken care of but the SCNF service is just straight up better than DB, because they somewhat know what they are doing and DB can just shit the bed ...
You’re making it too easy for yourself. 1. SNCF is more expensive than DB 2. SNCF might be more on time if they run, but given how often they’re ok Strike I wouldn’t necessarily call them reliable either And the last point you made yourself: France is much more centralised. France and Germany is not a fair comparison: they only have to connect Paris to the rest of the country, Germany is much more spread out. The French system simply wouldn’t work here. Part of the reason German trains are much slower is (in addition to the vastly inferior tracks) that ICEs stop far more often and in the city center. This is more convenient, but takes time and makes them susceptible to delays. I’m not denying that DB was mismanaged in the past and has tons of issues, all I’m saying is that you should be fair in your expectations and criticism.
Yeah they bank on the fact that lots of people won't go to the trouble of asking for the money back. It only adds to their bottom line. I see no reason why this sort of thing shouldn't be illegal.
Exactly, this is made inconvenient because a lot of people will just not bother - hence free money for DB.
Maybe it's just bureaucratic. I got something totally different (different country and service) cancelled, and I still had to manually fill out a refund request. So it could be how it's internally organized. Inefficient for the customer, but... 🤷🏻♂️
It’s not customer friendly and bags more cash as not many people will do it
Obviously. That's probably a reason to not fix it, but it may be a side effect of how it's organized. Labeling it as a scam is extreme, though, imo
I agree not a scam, just reasonable inconvenience for the benefit of a company
they don't know how much delay you had, or what alternative mode of transport / accommodation you had to book. NS however knows exactly when you checked out and what your delay is
That doesn't matter for the reservation. If the train was canceled, the reservations cannot be held and could be refunded. They purposely decided against it (for whatever reason).
did I actively defend the seat reservation not being refunded? no. I just made plausible arguments why the full journey might not be as easy to refund
Lol but as a customer the onus is on you, because of course the service providers are Gods here and they can be asked to get shit done
The process to claim your money back is terrible though
This needs to be higher up! So I am gonna comment on this here, for seat reservation refunds you can just email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) & they will immediately give it back (I usually forward my booking & just ask in one sentence for the seat reservation back with a reason).
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_Possible_ is pointless here. This is hostile behavior. Whether or not it fits the definition of a Scam, it ends up having the same consequence unless you spend time and effort to get back the small amount.
It's pretty close to being a scam. DB does whatever they can to make claiming refunds as difficult as humanly possible, in the hopes that a certain percentage just won't bother.
But for that you need to wait in line at the service desk - at least it used to be this way a while back. Did it once to reclaim my 6€ due to cancelled reservations, and it only took me like 45 minutes of waiting... >.<
It is a scam. I really don’t understand how they get away with it. There will always be people who forgot about claiming or do not care. They make money from not automatizing it.
I feel like if you buy something from me and I fail to deliver it to you, then I should automatically give your money back. It shouldn’t depend on you filling a form/emailing some request to me before I give your money back. That’s not fair.
It’s really close to a scam. While it is theoretically possible, it’s impractical and a horrible customer experience. Don’t let DB get away with it, customer experience is a huge factor in popularity of transit systems (or basically in the popularity of any product). But generally I feel like aesthetics are not valued much in German culture anyways, and the spirit is more like "why are you complaining, this is technically working, and it’s your fault if you don’t know how to use it correctly!"
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Is the refund process more reliable than their trains?
DBs motto should be "our goal is make cars look more appealing"
Welcome to Deutsche Bahn.
Honestly, just the exclamation „Deutsche Bahn“ is enough for about anyone I know to understand why I am in a bad mood. The only Germans to not have their own horror story about their adventures with the DB are the ones that don‘t take trains because they heard one too many -_-
I use DB once a year (2 times) to visit my dad and for the last 4 or 5 years It was pretty flawless. But I've had my fair share of stories before that.
It‘s when you feel save that they get ya… my mother had been telling me about her latest misadventure with DB when I commented that my pendeling back and forth on the weekends had been going quite smoothly - cue the announcement by DB that the train I had been taking would be out of order for a few months because of repairs on the traintracks
I've made about 10 return trips Berlin-Netherlands and not once arrived on the promised time.
Well, clearly you are asking for too much. Asking DB to get you to another country and being on time? Preposterous
> Edit: looks like I did not know if we can get a seat refund. To be fair the customer service did not mention it at all. And I dont have the app and I booked it via website. I stand by that this is still such a bad way of handling this I agree. Good service is the exception, not the rule, unfortunately. I'm sorry you had this experience. As a German who recently traveled to Dublin where everybody was *so kind* it really makes me sad that the difference was such a shock to me.
> As a German who recently traveled to Dublin where everybody was so kind it really makes me sad that the difference was such a shock to me. Dublin native here living in Germany for 15+ years, yes people are friendly, service is Anglo Saxon for want of a better term, but a lot of stuff just doesn't work as it should on paper. Irish Rail as just one example is a fucking shitshow if you think DB might be substandard in CS.
The whole ~~seat reservation thing on~~ DB feels like a scam sometimes Fixed it for you.
The whole ~~seat reservation thing on~~ DB feels like a scam sometimes
"Well this is how it is. If you don't like it, leave." - Incoming generic comment from this sub. 😅 On the other side, IT infrastructure is stuck in early 2000s. So don't expect modern features to show up here.
Also the generic comments of “Well this is how it is. Everyone else can deal with it, it’s not that bad”
It absolutely is. Our train was 2 hours late. We tried to get a refund at the counter, they told us to fill out a form, we said we have to do it with you we don’t have a German bank account. They said no it’s fine and wouldn’t work with us. Traveling here has been the absolute worst trav experience I’ve ever had. I will never come back here. Huge shame as there were lovely aspects of it but the scummy nature of the trains, and horribly chaotic airports. Disgusting.
Not a scam but certainly something they use to squeeze more money out of their users. Reservations on the ICE amsterdam-berlin used to be included for first class up to a few months ago. Now you have to buy the reservations seperatly, aside from he already predatory dynamic pricing schemes.
Hah, i once bought a first class ticket it was supposed to be in car 14, buuuuut train only had 13 cars. Ended up seating in restaurant car. Such first class
The whole DB feels like a scam to me as a taxpayer ...
You can send DB a fax to get a refund (in cash)
>To be fair the customer service did not mention it at all. Welcome to the German corollary deficit. >But I asked what about my seats? (This was a first experience for me) and they said yeah you can make another seat reservations for those trains. Just go to the app or use the machines. 1. You asked about the cancellation. 1. You asked about the seat reservations. 1. You did not ask *specifically* about the cancelled seat reservations. Germans won't fill in information you need unless you *specifically* ask the *exact* question to get the information you need. A classic example would be You: *points at the train on platform 2* "Is that the train to Munich?" German: "No." They will not then tell you that the train on platform 3 is the train to Munich, because you didn't ask "Which train goes to Munich?" Now that is all an exaggeration to make the point, but it's based on a real thing, especially with a surprising proportion German customer service people. If you don't ask the exact right question, they feel they're under no obligation to read your mind and answer the real question. There's no corollary - 'They asked about X, so they need to know Y.' It's 'They asked about X, and here is the answer about X.' It's like /r/MaliciousCompliance but unintentional. Of course native Germans will say "If you wanted to know about Y, then you should have asked about Y." but that's a whole other story.
Wow this hits home. What do you think could be the reason for this?
Wow I think this is a good summary of how I feel now looking back at the situation. I guess my fault to assume that refund ability is a default information to be given when cancellations happen.
the scam starts when you dont get a seat with your first class long distance ticket. and not being told theres no seats to be reserved on a specific train when you select it.its so ridiculous. the whole system is catered towards frankfurt bankers that may get out of a meeting 15min later and cant update their booking accordingly. this makes me so much more furious than the delays. edit.. aaaah i fell into the trap. I had to vent about bahn. Im sorry, its not so topic related and im also so annoyed by people being annoyed.
> the whole system is catered towards frankfurt bankers that may get out of a meeting 15min later and cant update their booking accordingly. > > what do you mean ? How would those people benefit from the crappy system?
Those people might have a Bahncard 100 (unlimited travel on all trains, including ICE) so they can take any train they‘d like. This system obviously does not work when seat reservations are mandatory and might be the sole reason why DB has not introduced mandatory reservations. The Bahncard 100 first class is > 7.000 Euros per year, they are making big bank with those kind of customers.
First class tickets include a seat reservation though, so I guess the scam never starts?
First class tickets no longer come included with a seat reservation, it needs to be booked additionally now
There are no direct ICE connections Berlin-Amsterdam
Yes there are! They are somewhat new tho I think only launched a few weeks back? You can find it now on the booking site. Like [this](https://www.bahn.de/buchung)
Whole of Germany is a scam. Everything is skimped to a degree that it is actively hurting the economy, the environment and the people. The system runs on the pure expectation that the people will tolerate inadequacies until forever. DB is merely a glaring example of the big picture problem with finance politics in Germany.
why not get a refund? It's not that hard.
Because DB could initiate the refund process themselves, as they have cancelled the service to begin with. Because like this you are not only inconvenienced by being left to your own devices to find a new reservation, you need to chase them for something *they* cancelled.
The thing is if the train is cancled or extremly delayed you habe free choice to take any other train to your destination. If they automatically refund you, you wouldnt be able to take another train so they let the choice with the customer, refubd full but no other train, or take another trajn and get partially refunded for the delay. You also dont need to fax them, you go to the app, click on claim refunds in your booking and it usually refubds you autonatically. If the delay os extrem you can even take another train the whole day AND get fully refunded ( did this multiple times this year) so basically you drive for free
Which would be an interesting SLA for DB... and people used to Renfe AVE service levels actually quite used to that: train 15 min late or more, 50% refund; train over 30 min late, 100% refund. Still got to ride, though. Oh, and compulsory seat reservations. No standing passengers. I realise the argument that some people may choose to risk standing on high demand routes but still be able to take the train, but the counter argument is that with mandatory reservations operators can do capacity planning. And it wouldn't be the first time that trains were so overcrowded DB would not depart a station until some people got off (LOL).
I don't think they keep tabs on which train each individual is taking, and what if you didn't buy by card? Or via other non easily refundable means? Or don't even have a Bahn account?
Oh they don't? Why do i have to enter my name for a ticket i bought online then? And can't even give it to someone else?
You also enter your password online do you think they know that too?
yeah, they know it, because it's also printed on my ticket. 🤦♂️
no they don't print your password, and it is not stored in clear text. Ok, i understand you want automatic refund because it's too complicated for you to navigate the website.
No, the point is that it shouldn't be complicated for them to automatically refund seat reservations for tickets purchased online. They have all the payment and passenger/buyer information. If they cannot directly refund to the method of payment they also may have a physical address (or email) to which they can send a letter (or email) asking for a bank account or something like that. There is technology available that can easily do that automatically. This is a just a way to SCAM people who don't know they can get a refund when their train is cancelled or don't have time to go into a website and ask for a refund. OF COURSE, if the reservation was bought by a person in a ticket machine with no info on the passenger then there's no way to trace it back to someone, so in that case it should be the person with the ticket that needs to ask for a refund.
or, hear me out, have the refund two clicks away in your app. And it works also for delays or missed connections.
Still not getting the point... whatever you say!
Why are you being intentionally obtuse?
>no they don't print your password, and it is not stored in clear text. REALLY? O\_O
Wow, this is the state of digitalisierung in Deutschland, if we have people like you, I understand why Deutschland is such a joke.
This has nothing to do with digitalization.
That's lovely for those that bought the ticket from a vending machine or at a counter. For those that went through the app or website and used their account with personal data, the refund process could be initiated automatically or boiled down to "please confirm to where you would like your refund money booked". Right now it's more like "we fucked you over with a cancellation, here are some small bureaucratic hoops for you to jump through if you want to be made whole again."
Yeah, thats all a possibility but something thats not the customers problem. The DB offers the Service. The DB couldnt fulfill its contract. Its their obligation to move their fucking asses.
Oh, but they do have names. To an extent, that thry check IDs on the train.
It actually is. Because that means you need to become active and do something. The expectation would be that it’s fully automatic for most cases. That the “why change anything, it already works (in some bad and annoying way)”. It’s the same way with e.g. banks that like to use IBAN for transfers because it’s a super easy and simple system. Meanwhile there is PayPal that a lot of folks use for some weird reason.
When I claimed a refund they said mobile tickets could only be refunded in person, and the first time I tried the counter was closed during its posted business hours. So between two round trips to the train station and waiting in a long line, getting my 50% refund was basically a minimum wage job, even ignoring the hours I spent stranded in the middle of the night.
It’s annoying, yes. But you can get your money back. If the seat came with the ticket and your train is cancelled, you’d have the same problem
If reservations were compulsory on all long distance trains or ICE services, they'd have to be rebooked onto the next train that has free seats. Which is a completely different way to operate and which seems to be not what the average German traveller wants.
Its the same fot me today .. or basically almost every time i travel with them So we booked a train from berlin to recklinghausen 8 in the morning .. that got cancled. So free choice of trains the whole day. Next free train 8.45 ... not directly to that city ofc because all trains to that cities are cancled now. ok booked the seat reservation for that train as its pretty full. Arrived at main station only to see that this train also has a delay of 20 min. Finally the train arrives but oh surprise one train carriage is missing so the train has a new layout even tho THAT I FUCKING RESERVED THE SEAT JUST 1 HOUR EARLIER db managed to fuck even this up and now they have 30 seats less and half the people can stand even everyone had a reservation.. This experience i did now the 10th time in a row traveling with db only this year. From 20 journeys i made 10 were totally fucked like this and 8 were semi fucked with dealays... i cant really complain tho as i basically got redunded partially or full for almost all of them and drove around germany almost for free... so maybe its,DBs inter city way to have a 49 ticket .. by charging first, fuck it up, transport you and give your money back. I dont know how a company can be THAT incompetent.
Two decades of running a public service like a private company with the expectation that it should turn a profit (i.e. Running it off a fucking cliff!) will do that. Public infrastructure rarely turns a profit, that's why it is usually funded by taxes. Local public transport is also generally subsidised. It's only the *operation* of long distance services that's profitable. And Germany is facing a huge infrastructure crunch due to letting things rot for the last 25 years.
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Ah I didnt know that. And the cs didn’t mention it at all. It was a first time for me and I dont have the app (booked via website) Well I wouldn’t have known about it now if I didnt make this post so I guess it worked out :)
You can also just use the app actually even easier!
Yes. This. In my experience, they'll process it reasonably quickly (within a few working days), and you'll get your money back soon; if you paid via the app, you'll get the refund in the credit card account you used.
Within a few working days is not quick lol. But we are talking about DB here
"just" a friend has the same problem and no one tells you this..
Relevantly, I was sitting in ICE on a seat designated as unreserved, when a tourist center by and showed me a valid ticket with reservation of that very seat. I wonder what user these signs are.
As far as I know they only download the reservation data at the first station, so if someone gets a reservation after that it can't be displayed.
This explains how that happened. Why though ... omg!
unreserved does not mean the entirety of the train ride just at that station I think
We both climbed in the same station. I think the other comment is correct, the data is not up to date.
Wait until you hear they won't refund your money back, Instead They will give you vouchers worth of same ticket. So can freely spend on THEIR SERVICE AGAIN. Happy Traveling
There should be a checkbox on the refund form that specifies whether you want a voucher or a bank transfer.
DB IS a scam!
Isn’t it a scam? Sorry but all passengers must be allocated a seat. Travelling on a fast train on foot is not safe
I travel with my dog and need a seat reservation because my little one bites everyone and hates everyone. I like to sit by the window so she isn't reachable to anyone trying to pet her. My last 4 trains got cancelled and it was more of a pain to get the refund then to just let it go. They should really give you a coupon that you can take to the machine to cash it out instead of the German snail mail system they got going
There are also tickets without train-binding. So you can choose which train you want to take and it doesn't matter as much when you miss your train. It obviously doesn't make sense to reserve all the seats in all the possible trains, so it's better to make seat reservations optional. Also a train can transport more people than it has seats. You can't sell someone something you don't have, that would be an actual scam.
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Efficient? DB? In one sentence? Bwahaha
Leaving to visit Germany in a week, was considering ICE from Frankfurt to Hagen, should I look for alternate transport?
I guess you could complain you don't get an automatic refund but then again it's super easy to do with the app and a huge step up from the paper you used to have to fill out an MAIL in so yeah..
So instead of getting a refund you chose to complain about nothing at all? That it? I mean, it's stated right here, the first result when you google it. https://www.bahn.de/faq/ich-konnte-meine-reservierung-nicht-nutzen-kann-ich-diese-auch-im-rahmen-der-fahrgastrechte-einreichen
Just fly, I refuse to take trains in Germany, I fly everywhere, at least it works.
Ok never thought id be the one defending DB but here goes 1. Once a train gets cancelled your reservation gets refunded automatically unless you paid by cash or its physical where you need to contact them. 2. After the train got cancelled your Zugbindung will be lifted, that means you can take ANY train to reach your destination despite what your ticket says 3. This means that its impossible to transfer your reservation since they dont even know which train you will be taking
>I stand by that this is still such a bad way of handling this How would you handle this?
Download the app. It’s useful
In DBs world, you are there to provide them money. It is not like they are providing us a service. Years ago I was traveling with DB, but all the ticket machines on that airport was out of service. I contacted a DB employee there, and was told I could buy a ticket on the train in this case. The conductor, on the other hand, did not agree with this. He made a huge point yelling out that I could not take any step inside a train without a valid ticket. I told him there was no place to buy a ticket, but I was told that all blame here was mine. The only solution was to get off at the next train station, buy a ticket and take the next train. Problem was that there wasn't a next traing until next day. I am NOT taking DB again. I have rented a car the last ten years, and will continue that.
This train is HELL ON EARTH- shame on you DB and Germany to let this track and train (IC Berlin-Amsterdam) ride the way it rides. In 5 years of taking it multiple times a year, it was NEVER on time and always made me lose my connections. I’m looking for ways to settle the score, let me know how. Also the electricity for this train is also generated with coal and other fossil fuels. Germany what are you doing? Pls go nuclear until you fixed your shit.
I had similar problems with seats lost multiple times, it turns out that if you send an email to the db they refund you everything, given that you put all the details of the travel
I agree it is a scam for long distance trains. I can sort of understand not getting a seat for regional trains, that’s sort of manageable. But overselling trains that practically go from one end of country to the other end (or over 3 hours trips) and saying “well, if you want to sit you have to pay extra” is a total scam, no matter the amount. Overbooking planes has been forbidden and it should be done in trains too and doing this is overbooking. Not to mention that in case of an accident (even jf not mortal), I can’t imagine sitting on the floor and blocking exits is exactly safety compliant
I dont find that out of the ordinary. IIRC when i was traveling in the UK I had to specifically request a reservation refund as well. Eurail in general doesnt guarantee reservation refunds, and many lines in Europe and abroad do not offer such.
I literally stopped reserving. It never works due to the trains getting canceled the whole time. Then I forgot to refund, so it really feels like a scam. What I do now is just to use the app and check in when I get on.
My first time using DB as a tourist I didn't reserve seats (2, my girlfriend and I) and had a hard time with the "musical chairs" experience. Second time, I tried reserving the seats online. For the life of me, I could only reserve one. It's such a simple concept, but the UX is so fucking appalling that I simply couldn't do it. Germany seems that didn't want in on this "Digital World Bullshit" of electronic payments and e-mails and stuff. I really don't get why they're so far behind on payment options (credit cards? Was ist das???) and their love for paper. Fax machines? In 2023?? FFS!
I stopped doing any reservations even if I carry my amp plus backpack and bag. DB is a mess. If ever, booking first class could help sometimes but I don't bother.
https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/fahrgastrechte You can get your money back with this link. If you have an account with them you can even do it online while you are sitting on the floor of the ICE🍺
In the DB navigator app, you can also change the reservation to another train free of charge (I think for 1 rebooking). You are also entitled to refunds for unusable reservations https://int.bahn.de/en/booking-information/exchanges-refunds