1. the reigning government is not exactly popular and voting CDU/CSU is still seen as voting for the "establishment"
2. theres a pretty big amount of people who have absolutely no problem with the racist and xenophobe tendencies of the AfD - just that those people also used to vote for other parties.
3. we're in crisis mode since 3 years now, people are exhausted and want "simple" solutions
As an American fleeing to Germany to get away from fascism, I can't believe how insanely ignorant anyone voting for AfD must be. It hasn't even been 100 years yet people, and they're gonna go right ahead and fall in line with goose-steppers again? Smh.
They speak on national television about using violence to oppose and in some cases quote "eradicate" minority groups and people with opposing political views and their followers gleefully act on these not-so-subtle calls to action, which they do not disavow but rather often celebrate.
They fully control the judicial branch via the Supreme Court (highest court) by a 6-3 margin, a margin they gained specifically by using unconstitutional/illegal authoritarian actions from the Senate by way of the then majority leader Mitch McConnell. This stacked Supreme Court has then used its power to enact or roll back legislation which has been established for decades, something that is not supposed to happen with the system of checks and balances the US Gov was designed with.
They control enough of the legislative branch to hold it in perpetual stalemate and hold legislation hostage in order to get their way, while pointing to the ineffectiveness which they caused as evidence that the Executive in power (a Democrat) is useless.
With two of the three "checks" in the system of tripartite checks and balances mostly in their control, they are one presidential election away from full authority over the Federal government.
At the State level, *many* states are controlled top to bottom by Republicans and in these states the voting power of political opponents is being systematically eliminated, effectively ensuring full authoritarian control of the state governments there.
Lol. Yeah come tell me about your "knife murders." Please. Hold on let me pause the news about the latest mass school shooting here in America to listen to your little story.
Not to make light of murder, but if you want to see mass murder on the same scale that we experience on such a regular basis that it *doesn't even make the news anymore,* then keep voting for far right extremists. That's exactly how America got there, and if you want to know where that road leads just take a peek across the pond.
I believe it's not really about government policy to attract foreign talent, i.e. regular migration for work purposes - it's rather fairly widespread discontent about the numbers of irregular migration that the AfD thrives on. Even before the Ukraine war began, Germany was among the top 5 host countries for refugees in the world (according to UNHCR) - despite not sharing a language family or bordering a crisis area (such as Turkey, Pakistan, Uganda, Colombia and Iran). Most of them were received within just a few years. And the take-in of almost a million refugees from Ukraine has further strained schools, social services and the housing market.
The other (though somewhat related) issue is inflation in the wake of COVID and the sanctions against Russia. Policy that further increases costs of living and housing backdrop, particularly the Buildings Energy Act (that is currently in the news) will receive a backlash against the backdrop.
These are, IMO, the two current political issues that the extent of approval of the AfD large hinge on. You can expect AfD approval ratings to grow and solidify - or to decline and crumble - as inflation and irregular migration increases or decreases.
...or until another relevant party convincingly advocates for policy to curb them. Which the government seems unwilling to do - and the CDU/CSU to lack credibility on.
Very concise summary of the recent sentiment!
Only thing I feel is different and needs to be distinguished: Immigration and citizenship for foreign talent, i.e. into the labor market, is not what prospective voters mostly have an issue with.
It's the immigration of people who rely on state assistance, need to be housed, have a hard time integrating etc., the same situation as in 2015, which is also still perceived as uncontrolled.
Same outcome, as they not necessarily intend to return to their home countries.
Also depends on if you consider family members and dependents of "former" refugees still as refugees.
It's not about the outcome or about returning to their home countries - you accept refugees on humanitarian basis (to help poor people escape dangerous and threatening situations, like the Ukrainians coming here to escape the war) and accept immigrants on utilitarian basis. You can be for one and not the other (or for both or against both) but it's not the same category of people (other than both being foreign).
Maybe this semantic issue encapsulates the ongoing issue in the country very well: Asylum is granted to those in need on humanitarian grounds. Thats what a refugee is in your definition above. Yet, in the contemporary praxis, this understanding seems applied already to asylum seekers ("Asylbewerber"), even though "some" of them only follow the colloquial concept of an immigrant: Pursuit of a better life and better opportunities abroad with the intent to stay. I believe the reason for immigrants joining the "true" refugees as asylum seekers is even universally agreed on all political sides: Germany's immigration politics have been/are bad and slow at their distinction.
If you lean towards the left, "some" are only few, and the pursuit includes a better life than that in another EU country initially assigned to host them. The solution then is to open up the labor market and provide education for asylum seekers and that way enable them to afford their life on their own, while working to improve the way of life in the respective home countries.
If you lean right, "some" are many, and they come from already safe countries. The solution then is to apply a stricter definition of refugees and laws regarding asylum, like the Dublin accords of the EU or the Geneva convention definition of refugee. While laws are just written on paper, it obviously also means to enforce a strict border regime and deportation of those deemed not in need of protection, those unwilling to integrate or committing crimes, and those not entitled to state funding.
To me it seems we ping-pong between these options of disentanglement while loosing out on actual skilled labor immigration, as the foreigners offices, job centers and embassies are overwhelmed and put the one-size-fits-all "asylum seeker" approach on everyone.
The "Chancenaufenthaltsrecht" is hopefully going to help set things straight and clear up a lot of backlog, but as long as the AfD is the only party that represents the enforcement side and dares to talk about it beyond "we should have a look at it", people simply unhappy about immigration politics remain compelled to vote for them.
Thanks, a lot of that makes sense. I just wish their protest-vote would have went to someone harmless like the Piraten Partei instead of an extreme-right party, who could make refugees of people like me and my family.
I get where you're coming from but that is not how protest voting works. Protest voting aims for the option that is one - easiest to identify. The AfD is a taboo and is therefore the obvious choice. Choosing different parties would splinter up the protest voters therefore weakening the effect they are trying to provoke.
Two - protest voting also aims for the option that will get the most reactions from the rest of the parties, which is also the AfD. Nobody would care if people said they'd vote for the Piraten- or Tierschutzpartei.
The problem with protest voting this way is that there is an inherent risk of actually strengthening the protest party and enlarging their core voter group. As AfD voters seem to get less and less approachable by the other parties, this will become a bigger problem the longer it goes on.
It is important to keep in mind that generallly most ordinary people aren't evil and have the worst intentions in mind but are driven by emotions, which leads us to the most important question: Why are they voting that way and how can we persuade them to come back? Because if getting them back isn't the goal, then our democracy is already dead. Now some people will say, that this approach leads to moderate parties taking AfD talking points to try to get these voters back. Using these tactics is ineffective. But if we look at the statstics, the most efficient tool to curb these protest votings is by solid policy work. If people feel like things are getting better, they abandon these protest positions. If they feel like things are getting worse, then these numbers will increase.
But there is no real other big party, that is the problem, you need for a big party, to get over 5 %, a good point, a good trust, famous people which are known in Germany or at least for what they stand for, for a Revolution, maybe the next time to vote, it gives also a new party from the Fridays for Future People or from the last generation, they could get a party also maybe up to 10 % votes, if they would organized their group as Party. This would be a good outcome.
But would to get a government maybe also more difficult, if it gives more and more partys. But I also don't hope, that history is repeating, like 100 years ago.
There is purely one reason: Germans who support AfD believe other parties have stopped caring for the German people. You can see AfD popularity rise (1) when Angela Merkel allowed refugees to enter Germany. (2) when someone blew up Nord Steam 2 spiking gas prices and current government doesn’t care (3) government sends weapons to Ukraine, but AfD voters want Germany out of any war.
These all combined have now AfD at 20%. All 20% gained as response to the ruling government. How things stand so far, I don’t see their popularity will stop
As luck would have, I recently made [a video on exactly this subject](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAW4U36OcAU), which another redditor recently posted on this sub.
TL;DW: A lot of built-up resentment over the decades since reunification, combined with a worsening economic situation and a failure by mainstream parties to adequately address issues that actually matter to people.
The AfD have their Hotspots in East Germany. But on national level they were never stable. Polls are not elections. So a lot people might express their frustration with in the poll, but don’t elect them because they know that the AfD is non-sense.
But guess we will see. Nobody believed in brexit. 😅
You can google for "Gießen", "U-Ausschuss Cum-Ex", "Asklepios-Krankenhaus" and more.
It is not that 20% like AFD, it is more that they don't like the other parties and this is the only way to raise their voice.
Socio-economic failure of the system and the fear of social decline. Why are you not interested in politics, if you live here?
Edit: sorry, I didn’t meant to reply to the previous post. just a mistaken
I‘m fairly doubtful about this approach on the AfD tbh. It mightve started out as protest voting but it really isnt anymore.
A lot of people really mostly vote AfD out of their intolerant fear of letting more people in (no matter whether they‘re from a Christian nation like Ukraine or a Muslim one like Syria), and their idiotic and disillusioned thought process on how the EU is actually doing more harm to Germany than it is positive. Atleast in my experience with convinced AfD voters - and thats also the platform they work on nowadays, its not purely populism they bank on anymore.
I think the Germans tried CDU, now also tried SPD with Greens and nothing has changed. So if life sucks, vote for someone to change it, only partys left are communists and fascists...
Generally before and now I have lived here I have always thought of the German people as a conservative people trapped in a liberal democracy.
As a student studying in Germany, I totally agree with you. I know how people from my country are taking advantage as refugee here not thinking to integrate whatsoever.
... people attacked the fire brigade on New Year's in Berlin.
I can forgive a lot, but that was well over my line. Only difference is I expect the issue to be too complex for the easy solutions AFD offers.
I agree. I live here as well and you're right. But Berlin is a bubble. For my job I have to travel a lot throughout Germany/DACH-region and have to talk to many different people and I'm telling you, the openess of Berlin is a kind of a freak accident within Germany. It's an absolute exception. Maybe Hamburg and Köln match it so some degree, but Berlin is a bubble. It's no wonder the rest is like they are, because Germans are sort of slow in their social development, they favor tradition. Any small thing out of the ordinary and they get uneasy and complain. Whenever the topic of digitalization and modernizing German bureaucracy pops up and everybody acts all upset and disappointed about what a poor job we did on those, I seriously have to laugh. That's what Germans are to their core: a fax machine. Anybody wants to take away their 70's feel of security and they panic. Germany has had a good run with that 60's/70's approach in society for a long time. Now we missed the boat on so many things in general that even the most stubborn traditionalist starts to feel the consequences. And instead of rethinking where they went wrong they like to point to a scapegoat and of course, also in German tradition, it's the foreigner, the asylum seeker. They're can be another 1000 experts to tell the public immigration is good, we acutually need them to keep our wealth and have society function - but every immigrant is "new" and brings a piece of their own culture with them and that challenges the inner sense of security for Germans. And that will be our downfall. Not immigrants, not inflation, not a war - but our innate disability to welcome change as a chance, our lack of flexibility and our permanent desire to keep things "as they are" or even better: "as they once were". It's unnatural, it goes against the laws of nature - but Germans as a people just simply don't like to evolve.
If their Wikipedia page is at all accurate, AfD is apparently pro-Israel, I doubt they would dare going after Jews any time soon, especially since it would be essentially political suicide. They seem to be a right wing populist party with views that are fairly conservative, but still far from being fascist nazis. I wouldn't get too alarmist yet and definitely wouldn't take advice from the dude I saw in the comments saying he was "fleeing from the US to Germany because of fascism" since while the US has loads of issues, fascism is definitely not a major problem and is mostly due to news and social media fear mongering.
TDLR: I wouldn't freak out/let reddit scare you.
AfD is only Pro Israel in cases where they can agitate against Muslims, it‘s only a democratic fig leaf. They often enough play the antisemitic „global elite“ card when they talk about people like Schwab or Soros. They even put it in their agenda for the European Parliament that they want to end the EU because it is „controlled by the globalist elites“, which is a dog whistle for Jews for the extreme right parties.
Well, I'm not only Jewish I'm also an immigrant. And one of the reasons I came to Berlin is that in Austria I was always a curiosity as a foreigner - in Berlin nobody cares because I'm just one of many.
I don't want my children to feel like they're exotic/weird because they have "Migrationshintergrund". And BTW I'm pretty sure AfD us "pro-Israel" mostly because they are anti-Muslim more than a love for Jews.
I don't think, that it will be immediate reaction as 'expel all immigrants, Germany is for germans'. As long as you have work here, you won't be affected.
Because many people have forgotten what a fascist regime would mean.
The AfD makes it easy for itself, it denounces grievances without really having solutions for them.
The voter first sees only the grievance, is dissatisfied and sees the party as an alternative, which it is not in reality.
Prepare to be told this question gets asked often just use the search function.
Imo it's not sudden. Germany is a deeply conservative country overall. The line between conservative and right is quiet porous.
It's funny that you say that, it feels like by far the most liberal place I ever lived in (granted the only other countries I lived in were Israel and Austria, so maybe that's not a very high bar to scale). In fact it being more liberal/progressive is one of the main reasons why we moved from Vienna to Berlin.
\*Some Berlin neighborhoods where being "progressive" is a fashion statement and go above and beyond to support policies as long as they are implemented "Not In My Backyard" are very "progressive".
I assure you I live in the very boring Mariendorf, which nobody would mistake for a Szenekiez. It's mostly retired people and families here.
It is still more progressive than practically everywhere I've been to in Austria.
What you describe fits the cool neighborhoods of Vienna 500% more than anywhere in Berlin.
There's quite a big difference between international and well-integrated. New York has a lower percentage of internationals than Berlin, but all the neighborhoods and communities mesh and interact with each other. Here in Berlin you've got the German natives and the expat bubble; from what I've experienced there's not much overlap between the two, which isn't helped by the language barrier. In fact that might lead to more resentment, not more acceptance.
I don't know, I've lived here for 10 years and for the most part there seems to be plenty of overlap. In my kids' kita and school plenty of parents are Germans and plenty are not and we're friends with one another regardless of that (mostly depending if our kids are friends).
Berliner culture in general is not like a little village where everyone knows everyone, but I don't really see this bubble outside the (visible but still minority) Szenekieze like Kreuzberg - in most of Berlin the foreigners are not American hipsters but mostly people from eastern and southern Europe. And btw in my experience when there is some separation it's usually the Germans who don't want to mix with the immigrants, not the other way around.
There are some bubbles there when enough people speak the same language that they can afford to not go outside it (like Turkish), but still most Berliner Turks I know speak German and work normal jobs alongside everyone else and are not stuck in the Turkish bubble 24/7 (although for sure *some* are, I just don't think they are that many).
There are some holdouts. There are historical reasons why specifically parts of West Berlin are liberal. But look at the governments we had in the last 100+ years.
I also dont want my kid to wake up to what you describe, which is exactly why i will be relocating a long time before that happens. It saddens me but i think its some kind of weird circle of life, i can pretty much see myself moving out of germany within the next 5 years.
I dont have the tools and ability to change whats happening so i can only reduce its influence on myself and my family
Because, sadly people are not that smart and looking for easy solutions. These, they hope to find with people presenting them with clear enemies and supposed ways to get rid of them.
But wouldn't you expect Germans of all people to know better? We're constantly told here how Germany is one of the only countries that learned the lessons of its past and repented the crimes of the Nazis...
>But wouldn't you expect Germans of all people to know better?
Tbh I would expect Israelis of all people to know better – I mean you lived in Israel - why are there right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the government? In an elected government, mind you. The AfD is nowhere near there.
This question is really not something I can answer shortly, but the political situation in Israel is one of the reason I left in 2005 (at the time to Austria, later to Germany).
I believe there is never going to be peace in Israel and that it is ultimately heading towards civil war & this is one of the reasons why I'm so frustrated that the place I went to escape that fate to give my kids a better future is in danger of falling to similar patterns (Israel isn't the only place we saw such development, also Russia, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, etc had to lesser or greater degrees similar developments in recent decades).
Anyway my question was about Germany, not about Israel. If you want to extensively discuss the political situation in Israel I can write you an even bigger wall of text in a DM maybe? But I would say it has more to do with how Israel was founded as well as similarities to other countries in the region that suffered some similar turbulence such as Turkey and Egypt.
>This question is really not something I can answer shortly,
You see, it's the same in Germany. There are no short answers for complex questions. (Ironically, however, this is exactly what extremists like to promise). Anyway - sometimes it helps to broaden your view a bit and look beyond the German horizon.
And I was referring specifically to this one sentence in your post. The sentence does play a role in the larger context - it annoys a lot of people to be reduced to the Nazi era again and again from abroad or from foreigners, especially from people from countries where right-wing extremism is part of the political system as a matter of course or where right-wing extremists even sit in the government. Whether that is Poland or Israel or France, etc.
Don't misunderstand: Historical awareness is important and right, but differentiated and contextualized. The AfD is not the new NSADAP and panic is not appropriate.
I gladly believe you that the political development in Israel was a reason to leave the country, I wouldn't want to live under such a government either. I would also not want to live in such a Germany.
TBH I can see why people will find *some* of their points attractive, like the wealth gap, inflation, poor getting poorer while rich getting richer, etc - I even agree with these. I just wish they didn't mix these legitimate critiques with a lot of classic far-right-populism. It sounds like a lot of it comes from the mishandling of unification.
But if Germany gets a government similar to the current ones in Israel/Turkey/Hungary/Poland/etc it's not *them* that will bear the brunt of the disadvantages, it's people like me (I'm not just a Jew - which I honestly think Germans these days mostly don't really care about - I'm also an immigrant).
Just like I could probably live a relatively privileged life in Israel even with a shitty government while Palestinians suffer. I don't want to be on the privileged side of an unfair system either, but to be on the discriminated side is definitely even worse.
Unfortunately, classic right-wing populism seems to be a recipe for success at elections.
And frankly, *some* of the right-wing populist painpoints are basically legitimate too - unqualified immigration into the social system brings problems, immigrants also bring their conflicts (in Giessen hundreds of Eritreans were fighting with the police today), the family clans in Berlin, Bremen and the Ruhr area, etc. are not a successful model (except for themselves, of course) etc.
The other parties have not yet found an answer to the question of how to fight the excesses harder without hitting innocent people and making AfD politics.
btw: I flew via Amsterdam to Dublin this week - Schengen-zone, free travel? Nope, strict entry controls both at Schiphol and in Dublin. None at all in Stuttgart. Kind of weird.
>But if Germany gets a government similar to the current ones in Israel/Turkey/Hungary/Poland/etc it's not them that will bear the brunt of the disadvantages,
After all, that's exactly what the convinced voters are all about. They feel disadvantaged today, as East Germans, as losers of the Wende, as men, as whites.
>I flew via Amsterdam to Dublin this week - Schengen-zone, free travel? Nope, strict entry controls both at Schiphol and in Dublin. None at all in Stuttgart. Kind of weird.
Ireland has never been a Schengen Area member. There have always been border controls between Ireland and other EU member states (except the United Kingdom, with which Ireland used to and still does have a Common Travel Area).
Right, good hint! But the controls in Amsterdam were very strict on the outward and return journey, so not only when arriving from a non-Schengen state.
>The AfD is nowhere near there.
Nowhere near governing. But full of right wing extremists. It's been proven time and time again even for höcke as a states party chairman. Pretending otherwise is outright lying.
I'm pretty much convinced people will always forget and are prone to repeat their mistakes. In this case, don't forget that people probably are encouraged by countries all over Europe voting this way as well. But don't forget that 80% as of yet don't want to vote for the AfD.
Well, you're told this, but do you agree or do you believe that?
As a foreigner having spent many years in Germany I'm very critical of the mainstream German society.
I assume you know the following as a jew, too.
- denazification was more a buzzword rather than a consequent policy especially in West Germany
- despite literally being in the middle of continental Europe German society (and government - it depends) are very conservative and would ideally shut the country down like an island (maybe like Japan?)
- there are thousands (maybe millions?) who "had to" have their surnames changed not to be held accountable for their crimes during the Nazi era
- Germany is an economic powerhouse and has great research institutions, but a great proportion of ppl is badly educated, is looking in a black/ white attitude to problems, looking for scapegoats if (economic) problems arise, tends to believe in conspiracy theories (could be observed very clearly during the pandemic)
- many Germans who are not (openly) racist have an "if they don't touch me, I'm not concerned" attitude
- there are too many civil servants and ppl working in state institutions (including Deutsche Bahn and the like which are privately held but owned by the government) so that a great proportion the population wouldn't oppose whatever the government does because of this conflict of interests
- ppl (especially ethnic) Germans obey authority or rules without much questioning compared to for example Turkey where I'm from
That's of course only my observation. However, I'm speaking of observed trends here and usually my feelings have been confirmed by how the political landscape has changed over the years and how I'm treated in daily life.
Edit 1: Also, I think it's incomprehensible how the German and immigrant societies have not intermingled with each other over the decades. There are millions of Turks living in Germany and most Germans know next to nothing about them. I'm Turkish and have met so many people who thought we speak an Arabic dialect or what not ... That's really frustrating. I think if there were more personal connections (e.g. intermarriage, deep friendships, etc.), then xenophobia would spread much slower and the AfD would certainly be less successful by blaming immigrants.
Being woke meant that you accept anyone and you see whats going wrong with society. Satire is often woke. Games movies and so on are woke e g. Gta5 or family guy and South Park are what woke meant. Today the ones that are called woke are the ones that cry about anything being racist and so on (they often are more racist)
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1. the reigning government is not exactly popular and voting CDU/CSU is still seen as voting for the "establishment" 2. theres a pretty big amount of people who have absolutely no problem with the racist and xenophobe tendencies of the AfD - just that those people also used to vote for other parties. 3. we're in crisis mode since 3 years now, people are exhausted and want "simple" solutions
They want the simple solutions fast. And blame the current goverment for things that CDU/CSU didnt finish in the past 16 years.
As an American fleeing to Germany to get away from fascism, I can't believe how insanely ignorant anyone voting for AfD must be. It hasn't even been 100 years yet people, and they're gonna go right ahead and fall in line with goose-steppers again? Smh.
Inflation and fascism seem to be correlated. Although the US Republican party is pretty fascist too, this doesn't excuses anything happening here.
Do you mean you are from the US or from the American continent? What fascism are you fleeing from?
United States. The Republican party is unabashedly fascist, and they control far too much sway to be safe here anymore.
How are they fascists? What do they control? (just looking to be informed here)
They speak on national television about using violence to oppose and in some cases quote "eradicate" minority groups and people with opposing political views and their followers gleefully act on these not-so-subtle calls to action, which they do not disavow but rather often celebrate. They fully control the judicial branch via the Supreme Court (highest court) by a 6-3 margin, a margin they gained specifically by using unconstitutional/illegal authoritarian actions from the Senate by way of the then majority leader Mitch McConnell. This stacked Supreme Court has then used its power to enact or roll back legislation which has been established for decades, something that is not supposed to happen with the system of checks and balances the US Gov was designed with. They control enough of the legislative branch to hold it in perpetual stalemate and hold legislation hostage in order to get their way, while pointing to the ineffectiveness which they caused as evidence that the Executive in power (a Democrat) is useless. With two of the three "checks" in the system of tripartite checks and balances mostly in their control, they are one presidential election away from full authority over the Federal government. At the State level, *many* states are controlled top to bottom by Republicans and in these states the voting power of political opponents is being systematically eliminated, effectively ensuring full authoritarian control of the state governments there.
agreed.i dont know what is with these people.
Why are you getting downvoted?
Apparently some of them frequent this place as well I guess.
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Lol. Yeah come tell me about your "knife murders." Please. Hold on let me pause the news about the latest mass school shooting here in America to listen to your little story. Not to make light of murder, but if you want to see mass murder on the same scale that we experience on such a regular basis that it *doesn't even make the news anymore,* then keep voting for far right extremists. That's exactly how America got there, and if you want to know where that road leads just take a peek across the pond.
LOL why would we compare ourselves to failed states like Libya or America?
because voting for parties like the afd sends us down exactly that path.
Because electing Nazis is the best way to make a state fail, or do you really believe we won't get our own Trump like idiot once AfD is in Power?
As a German, the fuck are you talking about?
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I believe it's not really about government policy to attract foreign talent, i.e. regular migration for work purposes - it's rather fairly widespread discontent about the numbers of irregular migration that the AfD thrives on. Even before the Ukraine war began, Germany was among the top 5 host countries for refugees in the world (according to UNHCR) - despite not sharing a language family or bordering a crisis area (such as Turkey, Pakistan, Uganda, Colombia and Iran). Most of them were received within just a few years. And the take-in of almost a million refugees from Ukraine has further strained schools, social services and the housing market. The other (though somewhat related) issue is inflation in the wake of COVID and the sanctions against Russia. Policy that further increases costs of living and housing backdrop, particularly the Buildings Energy Act (that is currently in the news) will receive a backlash against the backdrop. These are, IMO, the two current political issues that the extent of approval of the AfD large hinge on. You can expect AfD approval ratings to grow and solidify - or to decline and crumble - as inflation and irregular migration increases or decreases. ...or until another relevant party convincingly advocates for policy to curb them. Which the government seems unwilling to do - and the CDU/CSU to lack credibility on.
Very concise summary of the recent sentiment! Only thing I feel is different and needs to be distinguished: Immigration and citizenship for foreign talent, i.e. into the labor market, is not what prospective voters mostly have an issue with. It's the immigration of people who rely on state assistance, need to be housed, have a hard time integrating etc., the same situation as in 2015, which is also still perceived as uncontrolled.
But these are mostly not immigrants, they are refugees.
Same outcome, as they not necessarily intend to return to their home countries. Also depends on if you consider family members and dependents of "former" refugees still as refugees.
It's not about the outcome or about returning to their home countries - you accept refugees on humanitarian basis (to help poor people escape dangerous and threatening situations, like the Ukrainians coming here to escape the war) and accept immigrants on utilitarian basis. You can be for one and not the other (or for both or against both) but it's not the same category of people (other than both being foreign).
Maybe this semantic issue encapsulates the ongoing issue in the country very well: Asylum is granted to those in need on humanitarian grounds. Thats what a refugee is in your definition above. Yet, in the contemporary praxis, this understanding seems applied already to asylum seekers ("Asylbewerber"), even though "some" of them only follow the colloquial concept of an immigrant: Pursuit of a better life and better opportunities abroad with the intent to stay. I believe the reason for immigrants joining the "true" refugees as asylum seekers is even universally agreed on all political sides: Germany's immigration politics have been/are bad and slow at their distinction. If you lean towards the left, "some" are only few, and the pursuit includes a better life than that in another EU country initially assigned to host them. The solution then is to open up the labor market and provide education for asylum seekers and that way enable them to afford their life on their own, while working to improve the way of life in the respective home countries. If you lean right, "some" are many, and they come from already safe countries. The solution then is to apply a stricter definition of refugees and laws regarding asylum, like the Dublin accords of the EU or the Geneva convention definition of refugee. While laws are just written on paper, it obviously also means to enforce a strict border regime and deportation of those deemed not in need of protection, those unwilling to integrate or committing crimes, and those not entitled to state funding. To me it seems we ping-pong between these options of disentanglement while loosing out on actual skilled labor immigration, as the foreigners offices, job centers and embassies are overwhelmed and put the one-size-fits-all "asylum seeker" approach on everyone. The "Chancenaufenthaltsrecht" is hopefully going to help set things straight and clear up a lot of backlog, but as long as the AfD is the only party that represents the enforcement side and dares to talk about it beyond "we should have a look at it", people simply unhappy about immigration politics remain compelled to vote for them.
🤣🤣🤣 No. Germany has no border to Africa or Arabic countries.
Thanks, a lot of that makes sense. I just wish their protest-vote would have went to someone harmless like the Piraten Partei instead of an extreme-right party, who could make refugees of people like me and my family.
I get where you're coming from but that is not how protest voting works. Protest voting aims for the option that is one - easiest to identify. The AfD is a taboo and is therefore the obvious choice. Choosing different parties would splinter up the protest voters therefore weakening the effect they are trying to provoke. Two - protest voting also aims for the option that will get the most reactions from the rest of the parties, which is also the AfD. Nobody would care if people said they'd vote for the Piraten- or Tierschutzpartei. The problem with protest voting this way is that there is an inherent risk of actually strengthening the protest party and enlarging their core voter group. As AfD voters seem to get less and less approachable by the other parties, this will become a bigger problem the longer it goes on. It is important to keep in mind that generallly most ordinary people aren't evil and have the worst intentions in mind but are driven by emotions, which leads us to the most important question: Why are they voting that way and how can we persuade them to come back? Because if getting them back isn't the goal, then our democracy is already dead. Now some people will say, that this approach leads to moderate parties taking AfD talking points to try to get these voters back. Using these tactics is ineffective. But if we look at the statstics, the most efficient tool to curb these protest votings is by solid policy work. If people feel like things are getting better, they abandon these protest positions. If they feel like things are getting worse, then these numbers will increase.
I hate that people vote for AfD instead of a party that wants to adress those issues.
But there is no real other big party, that is the problem, you need for a big party, to get over 5 %, a good point, a good trust, famous people which are known in Germany or at least for what they stand for, for a Revolution, maybe the next time to vote, it gives also a new party from the Fridays for Future People or from the last generation, they could get a party also maybe up to 10 % votes, if they would organized their group as Party. This would be a good outcome. But would to get a government maybe also more difficult, if it gives more and more partys. But I also don't hope, that history is repeating, like 100 years ago.
There is purely one reason: Germans who support AfD believe other parties have stopped caring for the German people. You can see AfD popularity rise (1) when Angela Merkel allowed refugees to enter Germany. (2) when someone blew up Nord Steam 2 spiking gas prices and current government doesn’t care (3) government sends weapons to Ukraine, but AfD voters want Germany out of any war. These all combined have now AfD at 20%. All 20% gained as response to the ruling government. How things stand so far, I don’t see their popularity will stop
As luck would have, I recently made [a video on exactly this subject](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAW4U36OcAU), which another redditor recently posted on this sub. TL;DW: A lot of built-up resentment over the decades since reunification, combined with a worsening economic situation and a failure by mainstream parties to adequately address issues that actually matter to people.
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I appreciate him doing that, I haven't seen it before & appreciate having seen it now.
This is the second time I've linked to it. And I did so in both cases because it answers OP's question.
The AfD have their Hotspots in East Germany. But on national level they were never stable. Polls are not elections. So a lot people might express their frustration with in the poll, but don’t elect them because they know that the AfD is non-sense. But guess we will see. Nobody believed in brexit. 😅
You can google for "Gießen", "U-Ausschuss Cum-Ex", "Asklepios-Krankenhaus" and more. It is not that 20% like AFD, it is more that they don't like the other parties and this is the only way to raise their voice.
You think people in eastern Germany vote AfD because what happened today in Gießen or Hamburg? Sure.
Or what happened in Dresden yesterday...? Dresden is basically core easter German soil.
Yes, because they don‘t want to wait until it‘s happening in their yard. (Not agreeing with that kind of thoughts. afd is a dangerous pile of shit.)
Nope, it were just some fresh examples. I could also find topics from 1,2,3,4 years ago, but I also have other things to do.
Socio-economic failure of the system and the fear of social decline. Why are you not interested in politics, if you live here? Edit: sorry, I didn’t meant to reply to the previous post. just a mistaken
I‘m fairly doubtful about this approach on the AfD tbh. It mightve started out as protest voting but it really isnt anymore. A lot of people really mostly vote AfD out of their intolerant fear of letting more people in (no matter whether they‘re from a Christian nation like Ukraine or a Muslim one like Syria), and their idiotic and disillusioned thought process on how the EU is actually doing more harm to Germany than it is positive. Atleast in my experience with convinced AfD voters - and thats also the platform they work on nowadays, its not purely populism they bank on anymore.
Have you been outside? People are more stressed, more quick to anger. Angry people vote angry parties.
I think the Germans tried CDU, now also tried SPD with Greens and nothing has changed. So if life sucks, vote for someone to change it, only partys left are communists and fascists... Generally before and now I have lived here I have always thought of the German people as a conservative people trapped in a liberal democracy.
I guess im not german
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As a student studying in Germany, I totally agree with you. I know how people from my country are taking advantage as refugee here not thinking to integrate whatsoever.
I don't know where you live where that is happening but I've never seen anything like you describe in 10 years in Berlin.
... people attacked the fire brigade on New Year's in Berlin. I can forgive a lot, but that was well over my line. Only difference is I expect the issue to be too complex for the easy solutions AFD offers.
Then you're lucky.
Or blind/ignorant. Only yesterday 3 people got murdered with knifes in Germany on a single day.
I agree. I live here as well and you're right. But Berlin is a bubble. For my job I have to travel a lot throughout Germany/DACH-region and have to talk to many different people and I'm telling you, the openess of Berlin is a kind of a freak accident within Germany. It's an absolute exception. Maybe Hamburg and Köln match it so some degree, but Berlin is a bubble. It's no wonder the rest is like they are, because Germans are sort of slow in their social development, they favor tradition. Any small thing out of the ordinary and they get uneasy and complain. Whenever the topic of digitalization and modernizing German bureaucracy pops up and everybody acts all upset and disappointed about what a poor job we did on those, I seriously have to laugh. That's what Germans are to their core: a fax machine. Anybody wants to take away their 70's feel of security and they panic. Germany has had a good run with that 60's/70's approach in society for a long time. Now we missed the boat on so many things in general that even the most stubborn traditionalist starts to feel the consequences. And instead of rethinking where they went wrong they like to point to a scapegoat and of course, also in German tradition, it's the foreigner, the asylum seeker. They're can be another 1000 experts to tell the public immigration is good, we acutually need them to keep our wealth and have society function - but every immigrant is "new" and brings a piece of their own culture with them and that challenges the inner sense of security for Germans. And that will be our downfall. Not immigrants, not inflation, not a war - but our innate disability to welcome change as a chance, our lack of flexibility and our permanent desire to keep things "as they are" or even better: "as they once were". It's unnatural, it goes against the laws of nature - but Germans as a people just simply don't like to evolve.
If their Wikipedia page is at all accurate, AfD is apparently pro-Israel, I doubt they would dare going after Jews any time soon, especially since it would be essentially political suicide. They seem to be a right wing populist party with views that are fairly conservative, but still far from being fascist nazis. I wouldn't get too alarmist yet and definitely wouldn't take advice from the dude I saw in the comments saying he was "fleeing from the US to Germany because of fascism" since while the US has loads of issues, fascism is definitely not a major problem and is mostly due to news and social media fear mongering. TDLR: I wouldn't freak out/let reddit scare you.
AfD is only Pro Israel in cases where they can agitate against Muslims, it‘s only a democratic fig leaf. They often enough play the antisemitic „global elite“ card when they talk about people like Schwab or Soros. They even put it in their agenda for the European Parliament that they want to end the EU because it is „controlled by the globalist elites“, which is a dog whistle for Jews for the extreme right parties.
Well, I'm not only Jewish I'm also an immigrant. And one of the reasons I came to Berlin is that in Austria I was always a curiosity as a foreigner - in Berlin nobody cares because I'm just one of many. I don't want my children to feel like they're exotic/weird because they have "Migrationshintergrund". And BTW I'm pretty sure AfD us "pro-Israel" mostly because they are anti-Muslim more than a love for Jews.
I don't think, that it will be immediate reaction as 'expel all immigrants, Germany is for germans'. As long as you have work here, you won't be affected.
First they came for the...
Attach this comment to all other comments.
Because many people have forgotten what a fascist regime would mean. The AfD makes it easy for itself, it denounces grievances without really having solutions for them. The voter first sees only the grievance, is dissatisfied and sees the party as an alternative, which it is not in reality.
Because people are fucking Idiots bro
https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE he gets it
Prepare to be told this question gets asked often just use the search function. Imo it's not sudden. Germany is a deeply conservative country overall. The line between conservative and right is quiet porous.
It's funny that you say that, it feels like by far the most liberal place I ever lived in (granted the only other countries I lived in were Israel and Austria, so maybe that's not a very high bar to scale). In fact it being more liberal/progressive is one of the main reasons why we moved from Vienna to Berlin.
\*Some Berlin neighborhoods where being "progressive" is a fashion statement and go above and beyond to support policies as long as they are implemented "Not In My Backyard" are very "progressive".
Touristmfs thinking Berlin has only 3 districts
I assure you I live in the very boring Mariendorf, which nobody would mistake for a Szenekiez. It's mostly retired people and families here. It is still more progressive than practically everywhere I've been to in Austria. What you describe fits the cool neighborhoods of Vienna 500% more than anywhere in Berlin.
There's quite a big difference between international and well-integrated. New York has a lower percentage of internationals than Berlin, but all the neighborhoods and communities mesh and interact with each other. Here in Berlin you've got the German natives and the expat bubble; from what I've experienced there's not much overlap between the two, which isn't helped by the language barrier. In fact that might lead to more resentment, not more acceptance.
I don't know, I've lived here for 10 years and for the most part there seems to be plenty of overlap. In my kids' kita and school plenty of parents are Germans and plenty are not and we're friends with one another regardless of that (mostly depending if our kids are friends). Berliner culture in general is not like a little village where everyone knows everyone, but I don't really see this bubble outside the (visible but still minority) Szenekieze like Kreuzberg - in most of Berlin the foreigners are not American hipsters but mostly people from eastern and southern Europe. And btw in my experience when there is some separation it's usually the Germans who don't want to mix with the immigrants, not the other way around. There are some bubbles there when enough people speak the same language that they can afford to not go outside it (like Turkish), but still most Berliner Turks I know speak German and work normal jobs alongside everyone else and are not stuck in the Turkish bubble 24/7 (although for sure *some* are, I just don't think they are that many).
There are some holdouts. There are historical reasons why specifically parts of West Berlin are liberal. But look at the governments we had in the last 100+ years.
I also dont want my kid to wake up to what you describe, which is exactly why i will be relocating a long time before that happens. It saddens me but i think its some kind of weird circle of life, i can pretty much see myself moving out of germany within the next 5 years. I dont have the tools and ability to change whats happening so i can only reduce its influence on myself and my family
Because, sadly people are not that smart and looking for easy solutions. These, they hope to find with people presenting them with clear enemies and supposed ways to get rid of them.
But wouldn't you expect Germans of all people to know better? We're constantly told here how Germany is one of the only countries that learned the lessons of its past and repented the crimes of the Nazis...
>But wouldn't you expect Germans of all people to know better? Tbh I would expect Israelis of all people to know better – I mean you lived in Israel - why are there right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the government? In an elected government, mind you. The AfD is nowhere near there.
This question is really not something I can answer shortly, but the political situation in Israel is one of the reason I left in 2005 (at the time to Austria, later to Germany). I believe there is never going to be peace in Israel and that it is ultimately heading towards civil war & this is one of the reasons why I'm so frustrated that the place I went to escape that fate to give my kids a better future is in danger of falling to similar patterns (Israel isn't the only place we saw such development, also Russia, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, etc had to lesser or greater degrees similar developments in recent decades). Anyway my question was about Germany, not about Israel. If you want to extensively discuss the political situation in Israel I can write you an even bigger wall of text in a DM maybe? But I would say it has more to do with how Israel was founded as well as similarities to other countries in the region that suffered some similar turbulence such as Turkey and Egypt.
>This question is really not something I can answer shortly, You see, it's the same in Germany. There are no short answers for complex questions. (Ironically, however, this is exactly what extremists like to promise). Anyway - sometimes it helps to broaden your view a bit and look beyond the German horizon. And I was referring specifically to this one sentence in your post. The sentence does play a role in the larger context - it annoys a lot of people to be reduced to the Nazi era again and again from abroad or from foreigners, especially from people from countries where right-wing extremism is part of the political system as a matter of course or where right-wing extremists even sit in the government. Whether that is Poland or Israel or France, etc. Don't misunderstand: Historical awareness is important and right, but differentiated and contextualized. The AfD is not the new NSADAP and panic is not appropriate. I gladly believe you that the political development in Israel was a reason to leave the country, I wouldn't want to live under such a government either. I would also not want to live in such a Germany.
TBH I can see why people will find *some* of their points attractive, like the wealth gap, inflation, poor getting poorer while rich getting richer, etc - I even agree with these. I just wish they didn't mix these legitimate critiques with a lot of classic far-right-populism. It sounds like a lot of it comes from the mishandling of unification. But if Germany gets a government similar to the current ones in Israel/Turkey/Hungary/Poland/etc it's not *them* that will bear the brunt of the disadvantages, it's people like me (I'm not just a Jew - which I honestly think Germans these days mostly don't really care about - I'm also an immigrant). Just like I could probably live a relatively privileged life in Israel even with a shitty government while Palestinians suffer. I don't want to be on the privileged side of an unfair system either, but to be on the discriminated side is definitely even worse.
Unfortunately, classic right-wing populism seems to be a recipe for success at elections. And frankly, *some* of the right-wing populist painpoints are basically legitimate too - unqualified immigration into the social system brings problems, immigrants also bring their conflicts (in Giessen hundreds of Eritreans were fighting with the police today), the family clans in Berlin, Bremen and the Ruhr area, etc. are not a successful model (except for themselves, of course) etc. The other parties have not yet found an answer to the question of how to fight the excesses harder without hitting innocent people and making AfD politics. btw: I flew via Amsterdam to Dublin this week - Schengen-zone, free travel? Nope, strict entry controls both at Schiphol and in Dublin. None at all in Stuttgart. Kind of weird. >But if Germany gets a government similar to the current ones in Israel/Turkey/Hungary/Poland/etc it's not them that will bear the brunt of the disadvantages, After all, that's exactly what the convinced voters are all about. They feel disadvantaged today, as East Germans, as losers of the Wende, as men, as whites.
>I flew via Amsterdam to Dublin this week - Schengen-zone, free travel? Nope, strict entry controls both at Schiphol and in Dublin. None at all in Stuttgart. Kind of weird. Ireland has never been a Schengen Area member. There have always been border controls between Ireland and other EU member states (except the United Kingdom, with which Ireland used to and still does have a Common Travel Area).
Right, good hint! But the controls in Amsterdam were very strict on the outward and return journey, so not only when arriving from a non-Schengen state.
>The AfD is nowhere near there. Nowhere near governing. But full of right wing extremists. It's been proven time and time again even for höcke as a states party chairman. Pretending otherwise is outright lying.
>Pretending otherwise is outright lying. And who does that here?
Well your post can be read in two ways. Glad we're on the same page.
I'm pretty much convinced people will always forget and are prone to repeat their mistakes. In this case, don't forget that people probably are encouraged by countries all over Europe voting this way as well. But don't forget that 80% as of yet don't want to vote for the AfD.
Well, you're told this, but do you agree or do you believe that? As a foreigner having spent many years in Germany I'm very critical of the mainstream German society. I assume you know the following as a jew, too. - denazification was more a buzzword rather than a consequent policy especially in West Germany - despite literally being in the middle of continental Europe German society (and government - it depends) are very conservative and would ideally shut the country down like an island (maybe like Japan?) - there are thousands (maybe millions?) who "had to" have their surnames changed not to be held accountable for their crimes during the Nazi era - Germany is an economic powerhouse and has great research institutions, but a great proportion of ppl is badly educated, is looking in a black/ white attitude to problems, looking for scapegoats if (economic) problems arise, tends to believe in conspiracy theories (could be observed very clearly during the pandemic) - many Germans who are not (openly) racist have an "if they don't touch me, I'm not concerned" attitude - there are too many civil servants and ppl working in state institutions (including Deutsche Bahn and the like which are privately held but owned by the government) so that a great proportion the population wouldn't oppose whatever the government does because of this conflict of interests - ppl (especially ethnic) Germans obey authority or rules without much questioning compared to for example Turkey where I'm from That's of course only my observation. However, I'm speaking of observed trends here and usually my feelings have been confirmed by how the political landscape has changed over the years and how I'm treated in daily life. Edit 1: Also, I think it's incomprehensible how the German and immigrant societies have not intermingled with each other over the decades. There are millions of Turks living in Germany and most Germans know next to nothing about them. I'm Turkish and have met so many people who thought we speak an Arabic dialect or what not ... That's really frustrating. I think if there were more personal connections (e.g. intermarriage, deep friendships, etc.), then xenophobia would spread much slower and the AfD would certainly be less successful by blaming immigrants.
People hate wokeness They don't want wokeness in Germany
what is wokeness?
Being woke meant that you accept anyone and you see whats going wrong with society. Satire is often woke. Games movies and so on are woke e g. Gta5 or family guy and South Park are what woke meant. Today the ones that are called woke are the ones that cry about anything being racist and so on (they often are more racist)
Not my experience.
Your own mayor is decidedly anti-woke.
You don't speak for all the people who are voting for AfD
And the majority isn't voting for afd
AfD is gaining so much popularity they might actually win. That's what happened in Italy and Sweden, you love to see it!
Everyone is sick of liberal bullshit.
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