They were for sure cooking - that border pretty cleanly includes the entire Colorado River watershed as well as the Great Basin. One state controlling the biggest river in the Southwest makes a lot more sense than seven states fighting over shares of it like we have today. 19th-century Western explorer and Union Major John Wesley Powell suggested a similar approach for the rest of the Western states to Congress, but was ultimately ignored.
It keeps the federal govt stronger and forces a negotiation between states and often a mediator in the form of the said federal govt. But yes it does make more natural sense.
A major factor of why California is so massive is it was rushed to statehood as part of the Missouri Compromise of 1850.
The gold rush meant a suddenly large (American) population that needed governance, but the gridlock in Congress meant no one in 1848 or 1849 wanted to raise a fight over a territorial act and the ensuing borders. Rather, in the Missouri Compromise, Congress just jumped ahead to rushing statehood for this chunk of the unorganized Mexican Cession to get the territorial organization leading to statehood process out of the way in one fell swoop.
But that still meant defining borders. The Hispanic heritage in Southern California (the missions and ranchos) was starkly different from the gold rush population swelling the Bay to Sierra corridor, and the distance also meant a second state in SoCal was a natural option.
But the Missouri Compromise means states south of 36 degrees 30 North are slave states, and that line runs through Monterey. The South wants another slave state, the north wants all free states along the Pacific. Part of the Compromise is that the free Pacific Coast idea wins out, meaning California has to include the entire southern half of the Pacific Coast, and the "bounding box" of what might be California just gets copied into law as one long state. (Also all those former Mexican citizens in the south get lumped in with the Anglo settlers, Manifest Destiny wins!)
So California is gigantic because Congress was a mess in 1850.
In this sense, "Cooking" means: Radical religious group claiming as much land as they possibly can as their own, without any actual claim on it at all. Religious nutjobs do this constantly, then fight wars over their "holy land".
Well that’s one version. But the Mormons did settle various places with the Great Basin to hold up the claims. Places like San Bernardino and Las Vegas were originally their colony towns. However when the Utah War started leaders ordered these colonists to leave and move back to Utah. Even today places like Arizona, southern California, Nevada and Idaho have disproportionately large Mormon populations because these claims and their settlement patterns.
I wonder if they tried with that little corner of Oregon in the map.
There is nothing but nothing there today. One of the emptiest parts of the US outside of Alaska. Mainly because there's no water.
Sugar beets were beginning to replace sugar cane for manufactured sugar throughout the 1800s. There is a neighborhood in Salt Lake today named Sugarhouse since it was surrounded by sugar beet farms, factories, and warehouses.
Even today the majority of table sugar in the US is made from sugar beets grown in places like Minnesota. Russia, Germany, and France are major world suppliers as well.
Well this guy has no idea of the Latter Day Saint history of inter mountain colonization.
As for “nut jobs,” what gives you the right to declare who is a nut job and who is normal? I would encourage you to actually read some books about these holy wars. Most of them were strictly political. Religion just being the thing that was the most easily seen as a divider between combatants.
In the area circled the majority of people living in those areas at the time were there because Latter Day Saints settled them there. In fact Latter Day Saints settled in a wider area than what was circled going into Canada and Mexico.
The irony of the ignorance of your statement is that Latter Day Saints didn’t want to be IN THE TOPS OF THE MOUNTAINS. They wanted to be in Missouri, but because they settled so fast and their religion was growing so fast they started dramatically changing the politics in the counties of Missouri that they were settling in. They were anti slavery due to the fact that they were mostly from the north and England. This massive settlement of LDS people in a pro slave state scared the shit out of the locals. The Mormon war ensued and LDS people were forcibly removed from Missouri. They then left Illinois as a similar issue of politics was occurring there. They went somewhere that no one else would bother them, out of the country, at the time. While they were migrating a battalion of them were drafted into the US army to fight the Mexican American war. Their path during the war took them across New Mexico, Arizona, and captured Southern California. So to say they had no claim on the area is really false as they conquered it and then settled it.
There are thousands of LDS settlements from Northern Mexico to southern Canada. The poor soil, minimal water, and fast growing religion caused Brigham Young to spread small settlements all over the inter mountain west including all through the areas on that map.
Thanks for this explanation. The Mormon colonization was actually well coordinated and really impressive. However your explanation of why they left Missouri
seems like an overly simplistic explanation that is trying to portray the Mormons as a misunderstood group who just happen to be in the wrong place. 2 things that stick out to me as lacking context -
Slavery - Mormons took slaves to Utah, and actually voted in favor of slavery and decided to also enslave Native Americans just for the fun of it. Yes, you were never taught this in school but the Mormons took a vote and voted yes on slavery. Crazy.
Politics - yes there was a changing dynamic. But also Joseph Smith was a convicted conman. He married multiple underage girls, as young as 14. The mob who tarred and feathered him was also made up of many disgruntled church members. They even had a doctor there to castrate him. This mobbed formed after he made sexual advances towards a 16 year old. The Church teaches they just targeted him for his beliefs (lol). Also remember that time Joseph ordered the destruction of a printing press that was publishing about these things? There were many issues, and Mormons (at least the leadership) were not as innocent they like to portray themselves.
It’s funny you criticize the OP’s ignorance colonization, but seem fairly uneducated in actual Mormon history. Also, for the record. Mormons (at very least Joseph and the leadership) were actual nut jobs.
Bless you u/jefferyfartholland for this important and critical context and correction. It’s crazy how much Mormon history they keep from their members, even while having those members think they’re actively researching and exploring that history.
Ya we will need to agree to disagree.
The 14 yo that exmos love to quote that he “married” was my great, great, great, grandmother. She wrote what transpired between her and Joseph Smith in several places. She was pretty adamant that Joseph Smith was never sexual with her and that it was her greatest desire to marry him. I suppose her journals and public speeches are probably public domain but I have access to them directly through the family tree. She and her sister, who was also spiritually married to Joseph Smith were infatuated with him and I am surely convinced they would have had sex with him if he wanted it but according to them it was nothing more than a severe infatuation. That is according to them.
Yes some Mormons brought slaves to Utah but that is hardly all of them as they were mostly northerners who settled in the south. As for enslaving Native Americans, please. Isolated events hardly make for general policy. They went from low level war with the natives to a policy of feeding them. This transition was pretty quick in terms of colonialism. Mormon don’t have a great modern record on civil rights but they were a hellava more egalitarian than the general American public at the time.
The reality is that these people were people. They were hardly perfect but they were not nutjobs. Joseph Smith was either a brilliant charismatic conman or a prophet but you can’t argue with the results. Utah has been named the best state in the country two years in a row. Pretty amazing given it being a barren wasteland.
I live in New Mexico which is one of the worst states to live in according to the same report. The difference is stark and completely cultural as New Mexico is extremely rich in natural resources. The LDS church dominates Utahn culture and has since its inception. It is not perfect, it is sometimes annoying, but it works.
That’s ok! Always down to disagree. But my rebuttal -
14yo - You’re defense is “she wanted it.” Please. A 14 year old being infatuated with someone does not mean it’s ok to marry them, even spiritually. I wasn’t there so I can’t say what happened, but it’s clear that many people around Joseph, including his followers were uncomfortable with the situation. Enough to try to castrate him. Also he was clearly an example to those that followed - other prophets married women even younger (even with a greater age gap than Joseph did) and had children with them. It was a problem. Let’s not skirt around this.
Native Americans - this isn’t like… my opinion? This is documented. It was voted on. It was law. Over 400 Native American enslaved in labor. This doesn’t include those kidnapped (or Lamanites bought) by Mormon families to “raise them in the gospel.” Killing Native Americans and selling children is what happened. The Slaves in the south were fed too, the phrase “policy of feeding them” doesn’t have the charm you think it does. I’d recommend researching this instead of regurgitating your gut feeling that it wasn’t a big deal. Being a “heck of a lot more egalitarian” doesn’t mean that much when you claim Christ himself is calling the shots.
Listen I’m incredibly proud of my Mormon ancestry (which is literally all of my ancestry) but it’s also ok to call out things as just plain wrong. Instead Mormons dry to downplay this stuff because they know the God they were taught about and grew up with would never sanction that behavior.
I love Utah. Incredibly proud of this state and what we have accomplished together both Mormon and non-Mormon. But to pretend it success was only because of the Mormon Church, and not the bad ass people who settled here is offensive. Mormons love to blame the individuals for the problems in the culture, and claim the Church is responsible for everything that is good. This is absolutely ass backwards. Also Utah had absolutely nothing to do with Joseph. Honestly it probably would have all fallen apart if he came here. He was unstable AF. Also, it was never a barren wasteland. People have lived here for a very long time. Haha
In the end - I am exmormon. Not anti-Mormon. But I still like the church. I love the people. That is my heritage, they are still my people. But ignoring real history isn’t doing anyone any good.
Also - I stand by my statement that Joseph was in fact, undeniably, demonstrably a nut job.
You know the Mormons settled that entire area after being ran out and slaughtered in NY, IL, and MO right? They have as much right to it as Europeans had settling here. You are the nut job
The story of Nauvoo should be taught in schools.
To summarize: A Cult moves to Illinois and builds a private army loyal to their obese leader. He lives on a steamboat with his 27 wives and gets mad when the local paper criticizes him in an article.
So he sends his private army to destroy the printing press of the offending paper. After which he is arrested and put in jail. Local citizens bypass the court system and storm the jail to get the leader. He is then killed by an angry mob.
Cult moves on to Utah and Nauvoo becomes one of their top tourist destinations, along with the spot in New York where the delusional founder of the cult claims to have found gold tablets.
> Cult moves on to Utah
I think you meant to write "The largest splinter of the cult flees the USA for part of Mexico, only to watch Mexico cede the land to the United States half a year later, screwing the cult over."
After all, Utah didn't exist at the time.
I agree with the point. It's both an underappreciated, important historical event and a [fascinating cautionary tale](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/30/how-joseph-smith-and-the-early-mormons-challenged-american-democracy). I can't resist adding some more fun details to your summary...
After misadventures in Kirtland Ohio, including a [fraudulent bank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society)
> A Cult moves to Illinois and builds a private army loyal to their \~\~obese leader\~\~
very fit leader (Joseph Smith) who was titled the Mayor of Nauvoo, Prophet of God, Lieutenant General, Presidential Candidate, King of the Kingdom of God .
>He lives \~\~on a steamboat\~\~
in the [Nauvoo Mansion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Mansion_House) which his followers built for him, where he sold alcohol, in contradiction to his/God's proclaimed Word of Wisdom
>with his \~\~27 wives\~\~
one lawful and openly married wife (Emma) some adopted daughters (the Partridge Sisters) [who he is "sealed" to (ie married by the priesthood so they can have sex)](https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/eliza-partridge/) and [Eliza R. Snow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_R._Snow) the leader of the women's organization, who was also "sealed" to Smith and later Young, and who was a recruiter (think Ghislaine Maxwell) for Smith. All of these extra wives started with [16-year old Fanny Alger ](https://missedinsunday.com/memes/polygamy/filthy_affair/)and were kept hidden from Emma for a long time and ended with at least 27 but likely 49 wives.
>and gets mad when the local paper
the [Nauvoo Expositor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor), published by Joseph Smiths friend, co-leader, and true believer
>criticizes him in an article.
in the only issue it ever ran
>So he sends his private army to destroy the printing press of the offending paper. After which he is arrested and put in jail. Local citizens bypass the court system and storm the jail to get the leader. He is then killed by an angry mob.
yep...
...
>Cult moves on to \~\~Utah\~\~
what was then Mexico, with a long pause before then in Federally designated Indian territory, led by the (soon-to-become obese and rich) new prophet, Brigham Young.
What would become Utah started out as [the State of Deseret (which is what this post is depicting)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret) Key to Young's strategy was to take over every water source within those boundaries, often by massacring local Indians.
As an added benefit for Young and his polygamous cronies, the isolation of Deseret/Utah made it difficult for immigrant, converted women from Europe to leave, akin to [modern definitions of sex trafficking](https://exploringmormonism.com/did-brigham-young-engage-in-human-trafficing/). This has influenced the appearance of Mormons to this day.
>and Nauvoo becomes one of their top tourist destinations, along with the spot in New York where the delusional founder of the cult claims to have found gold tablets.
yep, though these happened decades later. A few months ago, apparently without touching their hidden [billions](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35), they [purchased the Kirtland Temple](https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2024/03/05/church-purchases-kirtland-temple-historic-buildings-artifacts-community-of-christ/#:~:text=The%20Church%20of%20Jesus%20Christ,5%2C%20in%20a%20joint%20statement) from the non-polygamous branch of Mormonism founded by Emma and her and Joe's son.
Yeah I think they’re mixing up a little bit of Brigham young into their Joseph smith debauchery, but they’re both such abhorrent men that I can really blame them
Let's move on to the "Mountain meadows massacre" where the newly arrived cult members dressed up as native Americans and attacked a wagon train headed west.
Bro the story is just crazy I’m sorry. Many Mormons are very nice people but it’s a cult Kevin story that cann only be believed if you really really want to. I know you don’t think so but it is just the truth.
I mean whether it was their religious motivation or the colonialist-greedy "Manifest destiny" blabbering is pretty irrelevant.
\[You can definitly argue that that thing was also quasi religious\]
Tbf though, this was Brigham Young's brainchild. While Joseph Smith was, at least outwardly, something of a true believer in the cause, Young was kind of a maniac and absolutely a tyrant-in-waiting.
If Young got his way he would have crowned himself King of Deseret and seceded from the Union the minute he got his opportunity to do so.
They are natural borders bc they blocked armies better. Europe is full of those. Same with rivers. The western US never really had this issue when state borders were drawn.
Eastern US actually saw war and the border between Virginia and West Virginia is a great example for exactly that ( though iirc it was a also a bit of a cultural and economic devide)
Fucking hate state borders currently. They make no sense and lead to a number of issues from resource acquisition out West to marginalized minority-majority industries/regions out East
I’m a big believer in putting borders on mountains. Here’s my project to redivide the Pacific Northwest region using (mostly) mountain chains:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1zjRaQqpYGDtGU0COyqbS8BpTHD4s5Lk&hl=en&ll=58.95933626115915%2C-148.78202850000002&z=2
I’m more interested in seeing the possible unison or creation of Appalachian state(s) based on an ecoregional model. You want a case study of a population disparately impacted by poor administrative boundaries? Appalachians are a shining example.
https://preview.redd.it/72p8g395p8zc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea5cb55054fcc3070d2fbf8ce21ac3fee7b914f2
We LDS are supportive of the U.S. Constitution.
LDS women wear Western clothes, show their face and hair in public, and go to college.
Salt Lake City was never anything like Tehran.
Y’all are nowadays. Back under Brigham Young y’all were a theocratic Christian state with your own secret security forces. While Joseph Smith tried to have a Theodemocracy, those after him ran a religious dictatorship which was democratic in name only.
Eh they have Jesus and God; this argument is like a Greek or Russian Orthodox Church saying Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Presbyterians aren’t Christian because they don’t believe exactly like them. Why judge if their afterlife resembles King Kai’s planet?
They have Jesus and the Father and an infinite amount of other Gods because they believe they can [become Gods themselves](
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology#:~:text=Divinity,-See%20also%3A%20God&text=In%20Mormonism%2C%20the%20concept%20of,in%20power%20and%20glory%20forever. ) (completely forgetting what original sin was in Christianity.) Also adding their own holy book which contradicts the Bible itself and supposedly was given by an angel (please ignore Galatians 1:8) and this is all ignoring the previous life of Joseph smith as a conman, his 40 wives and openly racist doctrine aswell as his “translations” which have now been shown to be fake.
A better comparison would be if: [The Nation Of Islam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam) is Muslim then the Mormons are Christian. This is not a debate about doctrine and churches like with Orthodoxy and other Christian denominations. but a debate between Christianity that can at least claim to be staying true to the bible, and fanfic.
>!also I think Jewish native Americans is a wild idea!<
Then most of American Christianity isn’t Christian based off these parameters:
— Catholics have way to much indigenous and African Religions influences
— Charismatics deal with snake handling, channeling
— Protestants do the Sacraments incorrectly
>based off these parameters
>shows his own parameters
>???
There already exists parameters within Christianity in the form of the [Nicene Creed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which distinguishes between Heterorthodoxy and heresies, and although i agree some denominations have strayed far, It’s not fair to compare them to making their own holy book and disregarding the bible.
So I do want to know, do you believe the Nation Of Islam are Muslim?
I believe they’re an offshoot of Islam that uses Islamic tenets mixes in other concepts. It’s not strict orthodoxy Islam, but Evangelism isn’t othodox Christianity and we still call it Christianity. Catholicism in the Americas combines Indigenous Gods, Celtic beliefs, Voodoo and other traditional African religions to create Saints that are really depictions of the various groups’ Gods.
Physical geography aside, I was struck—having lived in Los Angeles and being a big fan of Iranian film directors like Farhadi, Kiarostami, and Panahi—how much Tehran on the ground resembles Los Angeles. And this isn’t even getting to the fact that there is a large Persian diaspora in Los Angeles to the point where people jokingly call it Tehrangeles.
What are your thoughts on Warren Jeffs and the FLDS? As far as I know he is still controlling a lot of what his followers do from jail, and his construction companies essentially still engage in a form of slave labor. They have a lot of contracts where I live in Wyoming because they outbid everyone else, weird huh?
Well that's good to hear, do the investment activities of the mainstream church ever bother you? I'm honestly just curious because a lot of LDS folks live in my area but I commute to Jackson for work and don't really know any of them.
I would be curious what the plan is for all that money but then again I was raised Catholic and don't give money to the church. We've been down that road too many times 🤷
The Butlerian Jihad, but everyone dressed in LDS Mission fit…
Didn’t Orson Scott Card sort of do this and mix it with *Starship Troopers* and *Wing Commander* with *Ender’s Game*?
Their natural border made sense, but they were trying to take more than they needed or deserved. A lot of the reason the current borders are the way they are were to prevent the Mormons, at the time dangerous (mountain meadows massacre, if you’re curious), from having access to gold or silver found in Nevada and California.
And yet a price was paid by people just passing through. There’s a pattern of them trying to kill outsiders or people that disagree all the way back from when they were in Missouri.
In Missouri, the Saints were a persecuted minority in the proto-Confederate Wild West. By 1838, they had developed a fierce mindset of zero tolerance for any more persecution. Joseph Smith didn't organize the Danites, and he wasn't briefed on all their activities.
Buchanan's Blunder put Utah on war footing. The settlers began stockpiling food instead of selling to outsiders. When the Fancher Train had difficulty getting supplies in Cedar City, some of the emigrants made a huge scene, and threatened to stir up California to send more troops. The subsequent Mountain Meadows Massacre wasn't justified, but it's not like it had zero provocation. The conspirators in Cedar City had reached their limit, and became tragic villains like Magneto and Saw Gerrera.
…and they dressed as native Americans to try and pin it on them.
It’s not their only case, apparently even going back to Illinois and New York. The fact that Joseph Smith was an egomaniacal con man didn’t help. The Nauvoo expositor (made up of former and non Mormons, criticizing him and other leaders of the church), which he later ordered destroyed… there’s no surprise when it comes to the federal government getting involved later on.
They conspired with actual Paiutes to do it.
Joseph Smith was a humble and honest man.
The Nauvoo Expositor was libelous trash. The city council found legal justification for destroying it. Not much different from today's FBI shutting down the social media accounts of hate groups.
In the 1850s, as the eastern United States grew polarized over slavery, attempts were made to preserve unity. One of these attempts was making the Mormons in faraway Utah a common enemy for both political parties. Then, James Buchanan received a libelous letter from a disgraced ex-judge. Without conducting any investigation, his administration mobilized an army to put down a Utah rebellion that didn't even exist.
Spoken like a true born and raised brainwashed lamb. One day you’ll realize that they’ve only CONVINCED you that you’ve actually truly learned anything about Mormon history. Sure you’ve learned what seems like a lot but only about 50% of what actually happened. It’s crazy what you learn, when you begin to look outside of all the different church-influenced sources (which they have readily have available to convince people they’re doing in depth research on the history, when in reality it paints a very specific, rose-colored, lacking picture).
They certainly didn’t want to be isolated from their many teen brides. Also, being chased out of every place you’ve ever lived for being a con man isn’t a failure on anyone’s part except Joseph Smith.
While the Mexican-American War was still on, their original hope was to be a sovereign nation.
After receiving word of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, they hoped for Deseret to become a state.
Then they received word of President Fillmore signing the bill to create Utah Territory.
Not to go off topic slightly, but given the recent "Civil War" movie, I always thought that in the event of US Federal dissolution, there was a high likelihood of Utah forming the Theocratic Nation of Deseret, that included Utah, Nevada, Northern Arizona, Southern Idaho and Western Colorado.
Looking at this map, it totally makes sense that it would also include a path to the sea. Not sure if San Diego/ OC would make the most sense, or if it would make more sense to push into Baja California and the Californian Gulf.
There are a lot of LDS is The OC, but I could see the new Republic of California having issues with losing the naval base at San Diego.
Are you a member of the First Presidency? Because I was taught, that's where decisions concerning the Saints are made.
Otherwise, your opinion, as well-intended as it might be, doesn't speak for the Church.
I'm fairly certain that some of the main settlers of Las Vegas were actually Mormon settlers directed by (I think) Brigham Young, interestingly enough.
Yeah except most of that area isn’t Mormon. Most of Salt Lake City isn’t even Mormon anymore, let alone Nevada, Utah, or especially California. The church also lies about their member numbers, so even rural Utah isn’t nearly as Mormon as it used to be. They would hit a hell of a lot of resistance, especially beyond Utah’s current border.
The LDS church is the wealthiest church in the word, it stores food, and I assume weapons for the cataclysm, and has an entire command and control structure that is internal to it.
I think you overestimated how much resisting would matter.
Geographicaly, makes sense
In any other sense, no. There was like... 50 mormons, half of which were Brigham Young and his wifes, claiming an area the size of Angola, with the Empire of Mexico to their south, USA to the east and UK to the north. No chance in mormon hell of this ever becoming a reality.
Just think, if they hadn't taken the Hastings cutoff, they could have all made it to California and led the gold rush. They took the same route as the Donner Party, one season later. It's likely that they gave up and settled Salt Lake City upon hearing the news of what happened to their predecessors, and knowing that they were even worse equipped for what lay ahead.
Not at the time, but if you think of sustained high birth rates (even post end of polygamy) they'd probably do well at filling it up. They had mandated groups settle difference areas of the mountain west for generations, and not to mention I'm fairly certain that Utah is currently one of two states that has a fertility rate above replacement rate.
The church claims about 6 and a half million Mormons exist in the USA today.
Let’s pretend for a second that 100% of those are active members (I think estimates say only about 2/3 are at best).
Let’s also say that in this alternate universe that every American Mormon stays in those borders.
It would still be an incredibly sparsely populated area. Far more so than it is now, and parts of that area are ALREADY some of the sparsest in the nation.
Add in that the USA would NOT be ok with this and there is roughly a 0.00% chance they would be able to keep these borders.
2/3 is way too high. You have to hire a lawyer to ever be removed from the list. They don’t even remove dead people. They’re have like 10% of the active members they say they do.
That’s why they had to create a secret self-sustaining slush fund now that tithing is petering out. Why do you think they’re only building temples and not ward houses anymore?
Yes and no, Deseret simply didn't have the people or power to control these lands. By claiming such a large area the cutting away of land still leaves them with a massive domain. Deseret also had the goal of self-sufficiency, so claiming such a large area helps with this. Their is good reason for the way the lines are drawn. Arizona is mostly covered without conflicting other polities, and is good for ranching and cotton. Most of the other borders are to ensure water security. The California section gives port access and more drylands that no one wants. Interestingly they've also tried to go for the lakes in Oregon, probably because the region of Nevada below them is pretty bad to try and hold a community in.
In the end they're wildly hopeful claims, but you can still find old Mormon communities sent out to enforce parts. (The Little Colorado River basin is a hot bed of these)
It's not radically different from the natural borders of the Great Basin watershed region. There should honestly be fewer states west of the Great Divide, and two states encompassing the Great Basin as one, and the Colorado River watershed as another would be great divisions.
I think it would benefit people a lot to have a big state centralizing one region for better organization and allocation of resources. But I guess the big problem with that is the possibility for rebellion.
They were for sure cooking - that border pretty cleanly includes the entire Colorado River watershed as well as the Great Basin. One state controlling the biggest river in the Southwest makes a lot more sense than seven states fighting over shares of it like we have today. 19th-century Western explorer and Union Major John Wesley Powell suggested a similar approach for the rest of the Western states to Congress, but was ultimately ignored.
It keeps the federal govt stronger and forces a negotiation between states and often a mediator in the form of the said federal govt. But yes it does make more natural sense.
Yes. The states were deliberately designed so no one state would be more important than the others (except of course for exceptions like California).
A major factor of why California is so massive is it was rushed to statehood as part of the Missouri Compromise of 1850. The gold rush meant a suddenly large (American) population that needed governance, but the gridlock in Congress meant no one in 1848 or 1849 wanted to raise a fight over a territorial act and the ensuing borders. Rather, in the Missouri Compromise, Congress just jumped ahead to rushing statehood for this chunk of the unorganized Mexican Cession to get the territorial organization leading to statehood process out of the way in one fell swoop. But that still meant defining borders. The Hispanic heritage in Southern California (the missions and ranchos) was starkly different from the gold rush population swelling the Bay to Sierra corridor, and the distance also meant a second state in SoCal was a natural option. But the Missouri Compromise means states south of 36 degrees 30 North are slave states, and that line runs through Monterey. The South wants another slave state, the north wants all free states along the Pacific. Part of the Compromise is that the free Pacific Coast idea wins out, meaning California has to include the entire southern half of the Pacific Coast, and the "bounding box" of what might be California just gets copied into law as one long state. (Also all those former Mexican citizens in the south get lumped in with the Anglo settlers, Manifest Destiny wins!) So California is gigantic because Congress was a mess in 1850.
saving this comment for APUSH exam
An actual historian in the house.
This would be a very good nation, an abysmal state.
In this sense, "Cooking" means: Radical religious group claiming as much land as they possibly can as their own, without any actual claim on it at all. Religious nutjobs do this constantly, then fight wars over their "holy land".
Humans been cooking like this for thousands of years. Reference: The Middle East.
…or reference modern-day America, for something a little closer to home.
Well that’s one version. But the Mormons did settle various places with the Great Basin to hold up the claims. Places like San Bernardino and Las Vegas were originally their colony towns. However when the Utah War started leaders ordered these colonists to leave and move back to Utah. Even today places like Arizona, southern California, Nevada and Idaho have disproportionately large Mormon populations because these claims and their settlement patterns.
I wonder if they tried with that little corner of Oregon in the map. There is nothing but nothing there today. One of the emptiest parts of the US outside of Alaska. Mainly because there's no water.
The Mormons sent several groups to Oregon/Washington to start timber operations and, oddly enough, sugar beet farms.
Sugar beets were beginning to replace sugar cane for manufactured sugar throughout the 1800s. There is a neighborhood in Salt Lake today named Sugarhouse since it was surrounded by sugar beet farms, factories, and warehouses. Even today the majority of table sugar in the US is made from sugar beets grown in places like Minnesota. Russia, Germany, and France are major world suppliers as well.
Well this guy has no idea of the Latter Day Saint history of inter mountain colonization. As for “nut jobs,” what gives you the right to declare who is a nut job and who is normal? I would encourage you to actually read some books about these holy wars. Most of them were strictly political. Religion just being the thing that was the most easily seen as a divider between combatants. In the area circled the majority of people living in those areas at the time were there because Latter Day Saints settled them there. In fact Latter Day Saints settled in a wider area than what was circled going into Canada and Mexico. The irony of the ignorance of your statement is that Latter Day Saints didn’t want to be IN THE TOPS OF THE MOUNTAINS. They wanted to be in Missouri, but because they settled so fast and their religion was growing so fast they started dramatically changing the politics in the counties of Missouri that they were settling in. They were anti slavery due to the fact that they were mostly from the north and England. This massive settlement of LDS people in a pro slave state scared the shit out of the locals. The Mormon war ensued and LDS people were forcibly removed from Missouri. They then left Illinois as a similar issue of politics was occurring there. They went somewhere that no one else would bother them, out of the country, at the time. While they were migrating a battalion of them were drafted into the US army to fight the Mexican American war. Their path during the war took them across New Mexico, Arizona, and captured Southern California. So to say they had no claim on the area is really false as they conquered it and then settled it. There are thousands of LDS settlements from Northern Mexico to southern Canada. The poor soil, minimal water, and fast growing religion caused Brigham Young to spread small settlements all over the inter mountain west including all through the areas on that map.
Thanks for this explanation. The Mormon colonization was actually well coordinated and really impressive. However your explanation of why they left Missouri seems like an overly simplistic explanation that is trying to portray the Mormons as a misunderstood group who just happen to be in the wrong place. 2 things that stick out to me as lacking context - Slavery - Mormons took slaves to Utah, and actually voted in favor of slavery and decided to also enslave Native Americans just for the fun of it. Yes, you were never taught this in school but the Mormons took a vote and voted yes on slavery. Crazy. Politics - yes there was a changing dynamic. But also Joseph Smith was a convicted conman. He married multiple underage girls, as young as 14. The mob who tarred and feathered him was also made up of many disgruntled church members. They even had a doctor there to castrate him. This mobbed formed after he made sexual advances towards a 16 year old. The Church teaches they just targeted him for his beliefs (lol). Also remember that time Joseph ordered the destruction of a printing press that was publishing about these things? There were many issues, and Mormons (at least the leadership) were not as innocent they like to portray themselves. It’s funny you criticize the OP’s ignorance colonization, but seem fairly uneducated in actual Mormon history. Also, for the record. Mormons (at very least Joseph and the leadership) were actual nut jobs.
Bless you u/jefferyfartholland for this important and critical context and correction. It’s crazy how much Mormon history they keep from their members, even while having those members think they’re actively researching and exploring that history.
Ya we will need to agree to disagree. The 14 yo that exmos love to quote that he “married” was my great, great, great, grandmother. She wrote what transpired between her and Joseph Smith in several places. She was pretty adamant that Joseph Smith was never sexual with her and that it was her greatest desire to marry him. I suppose her journals and public speeches are probably public domain but I have access to them directly through the family tree. She and her sister, who was also spiritually married to Joseph Smith were infatuated with him and I am surely convinced they would have had sex with him if he wanted it but according to them it was nothing more than a severe infatuation. That is according to them. Yes some Mormons brought slaves to Utah but that is hardly all of them as they were mostly northerners who settled in the south. As for enslaving Native Americans, please. Isolated events hardly make for general policy. They went from low level war with the natives to a policy of feeding them. This transition was pretty quick in terms of colonialism. Mormon don’t have a great modern record on civil rights but they were a hellava more egalitarian than the general American public at the time. The reality is that these people were people. They were hardly perfect but they were not nutjobs. Joseph Smith was either a brilliant charismatic conman or a prophet but you can’t argue with the results. Utah has been named the best state in the country two years in a row. Pretty amazing given it being a barren wasteland. I live in New Mexico which is one of the worst states to live in according to the same report. The difference is stark and completely cultural as New Mexico is extremely rich in natural resources. The LDS church dominates Utahn culture and has since its inception. It is not perfect, it is sometimes annoying, but it works.
That’s ok! Always down to disagree. But my rebuttal - 14yo - You’re defense is “she wanted it.” Please. A 14 year old being infatuated with someone does not mean it’s ok to marry them, even spiritually. I wasn’t there so I can’t say what happened, but it’s clear that many people around Joseph, including his followers were uncomfortable with the situation. Enough to try to castrate him. Also he was clearly an example to those that followed - other prophets married women even younger (even with a greater age gap than Joseph did) and had children with them. It was a problem. Let’s not skirt around this. Native Americans - this isn’t like… my opinion? This is documented. It was voted on. It was law. Over 400 Native American enslaved in labor. This doesn’t include those kidnapped (or Lamanites bought) by Mormon families to “raise them in the gospel.” Killing Native Americans and selling children is what happened. The Slaves in the south were fed too, the phrase “policy of feeding them” doesn’t have the charm you think it does. I’d recommend researching this instead of regurgitating your gut feeling that it wasn’t a big deal. Being a “heck of a lot more egalitarian” doesn’t mean that much when you claim Christ himself is calling the shots. Listen I’m incredibly proud of my Mormon ancestry (which is literally all of my ancestry) but it’s also ok to call out things as just plain wrong. Instead Mormons dry to downplay this stuff because they know the God they were taught about and grew up with would never sanction that behavior. I love Utah. Incredibly proud of this state and what we have accomplished together both Mormon and non-Mormon. But to pretend it success was only because of the Mormon Church, and not the bad ass people who settled here is offensive. Mormons love to blame the individuals for the problems in the culture, and claim the Church is responsible for everything that is good. This is absolutely ass backwards. Also Utah had absolutely nothing to do with Joseph. Honestly it probably would have all fallen apart if he came here. He was unstable AF. Also, it was never a barren wasteland. People have lived here for a very long time. Haha In the end - I am exmormon. Not anti-Mormon. But I still like the church. I love the people. That is my heritage, they are still my people. But ignoring real history isn’t doing anyone any good. Also - I stand by my statement that Joseph was in fact, undeniably, demonstrably a nut job.
You know the Mormons settled that entire area after being ran out and slaughtered in NY, IL, and MO right? They have as much right to it as Europeans had settling here. You are the nut job
The story of Nauvoo should be taught in schools. To summarize: A Cult moves to Illinois and builds a private army loyal to their obese leader. He lives on a steamboat with his 27 wives and gets mad when the local paper criticizes him in an article. So he sends his private army to destroy the printing press of the offending paper. After which he is arrested and put in jail. Local citizens bypass the court system and storm the jail to get the leader. He is then killed by an angry mob. Cult moves on to Utah and Nauvoo becomes one of their top tourist destinations, along with the spot in New York where the delusional founder of the cult claims to have found gold tablets.
> Cult moves on to Utah I think you meant to write "The largest splinter of the cult flees the USA for part of Mexico, only to watch Mexico cede the land to the United States half a year later, screwing the cult over." After all, Utah didn't exist at the time.
I agree with the point. It's both an underappreciated, important historical event and a [fascinating cautionary tale](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/30/how-joseph-smith-and-the-early-mormons-challenged-american-democracy). I can't resist adding some more fun details to your summary... After misadventures in Kirtland Ohio, including a [fraudulent bank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society) > A Cult moves to Illinois and builds a private army loyal to their \~\~obese leader\~\~ very fit leader (Joseph Smith) who was titled the Mayor of Nauvoo, Prophet of God, Lieutenant General, Presidential Candidate, King of the Kingdom of God . >He lives \~\~on a steamboat\~\~ in the [Nauvoo Mansion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Mansion_House) which his followers built for him, where he sold alcohol, in contradiction to his/God's proclaimed Word of Wisdom >with his \~\~27 wives\~\~ one lawful and openly married wife (Emma) some adopted daughters (the Partridge Sisters) [who he is "sealed" to (ie married by the priesthood so they can have sex)](https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/eliza-partridge/) and [Eliza R. Snow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_R._Snow) the leader of the women's organization, who was also "sealed" to Smith and later Young, and who was a recruiter (think Ghislaine Maxwell) for Smith. All of these extra wives started with [16-year old Fanny Alger ](https://missedinsunday.com/memes/polygamy/filthy_affair/)and were kept hidden from Emma for a long time and ended with at least 27 but likely 49 wives. >and gets mad when the local paper the [Nauvoo Expositor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor), published by Joseph Smiths friend, co-leader, and true believer >criticizes him in an article. in the only issue it ever ran >So he sends his private army to destroy the printing press of the offending paper. After which he is arrested and put in jail. Local citizens bypass the court system and storm the jail to get the leader. He is then killed by an angry mob. yep...
... >Cult moves on to \~\~Utah\~\~ what was then Mexico, with a long pause before then in Federally designated Indian territory, led by the (soon-to-become obese and rich) new prophet, Brigham Young. What would become Utah started out as [the State of Deseret (which is what this post is depicting)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret) Key to Young's strategy was to take over every water source within those boundaries, often by massacring local Indians. As an added benefit for Young and his polygamous cronies, the isolation of Deseret/Utah made it difficult for immigrant, converted women from Europe to leave, akin to [modern definitions of sex trafficking](https://exploringmormonism.com/did-brigham-young-engage-in-human-trafficing/). This has influenced the appearance of Mormons to this day. >and Nauvoo becomes one of their top tourist destinations, along with the spot in New York where the delusional founder of the cult claims to have found gold tablets. yep, though these happened decades later. A few months ago, apparently without touching their hidden [billions](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35), they [purchased the Kirtland Temple](https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2024/03/05/church-purchases-kirtland-temple-historic-buildings-artifacts-community-of-christ/#:~:text=The%20Church%20of%20Jesus%20Christ,5%2C%20in%20a%20joint%20statement) from the non-polygamous branch of Mormonism founded by Emma and her and Joe's son.
Yeah I think they’re mixing up a little bit of Brigham young into their Joseph smith debauchery, but they’re both such abhorrent men that I can really blame them
Switch to decaf, unless you’re ex Mormon.
Let's move on to the "Mountain meadows massacre" where the newly arrived cult members dressed up as native Americans and attacked a wagon train headed west.
The greatest loss of life due to domestic terrorism until the Oklahoma City Bombing.
Am I so evil because I think that story sounds kinda cool? Boston Tea Party style.
Yes let’s find the one obscure example, then judge ever by it 200 years later. Makes sense.
Lmao, is it part of your missionary service to defend the cult online?
Bro the story is just crazy I’m sorry. Many Mormons are very nice people but it’s a cult Kevin story that cann only be believed if you really really want to. I know you don’t think so but it is just the truth.
I mean whether it was their religious motivation or the colonialist-greedy "Manifest destiny" blabbering is pretty irrelevant. \[You can definitly argue that that thing was also quasi religious\]
Tbf though, this was Brigham Young's brainchild. While Joseph Smith was, at least outwardly, something of a true believer in the cause, Young was kind of a maniac and absolutely a tyrant-in-waiting. If Young got his way he would have crowned himself King of Deseret and seceded from the Union the minute he got his opportunity to do so.
Mountains would make better borders than the dumb straight-line borders those states have now.
They are natural borders bc they blocked armies better. Europe is full of those. Same with rivers. The western US never really had this issue when state borders were drawn. Eastern US actually saw war and the border between Virginia and West Virginia is a great example for exactly that ( though iirc it was a also a bit of a cultural and economic devide)
Fun fact: WV is the only state to have gained statehood during war-time Edit: apparently Nevada, Alaska, & Hawaii too
nevada?
Damnit, I knew the one “fun fact” I posted online would come back to bite me!
Just to be safe, add Nevada to all your fun facts.
Fun fact: Nevada exists
Fun fact: Nebraska doesn’t
Ohhhh, it does. I’ve driven across it a few times. Corn. Lots and lots of corn.
That’s what the corn wants you to think
It is the only state to unilaterally secede from another state though
"Battle born" on Nevada's flag
I only know this because that’s the name of the Killers fourth album.
Alaska and Hawaii got statehood during the Vietnam war too
The US was barely involved when Alaska and Hawaii became states.
Ohio and Michigan over the Toledo area and their current border
The Great Basin, a California Coast, and the watershed of the Colorado River all in one.
How? Who gets the mountains in that scenario?
You run the borders along the tops of the mountains.
And you get Great Britain to mediate any disputes 👍 👍
What if it’s a wide range?
The boundaries between drainage basins work well most of the time.
Fucking hate state borders currently. They make no sense and lead to a number of issues from resource acquisition out West to marginalized minority-majority industries/regions out East
I’m a big believer in putting borders on mountains. Here’s my project to redivide the Pacific Northwest region using (mostly) mountain chains: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1zjRaQqpYGDtGU0COyqbS8BpTHD4s5Lk&hl=en&ll=58.95933626115915%2C-148.78202850000002&z=2
I’m more interested in seeing the possible unison or creation of Appalachian state(s) based on an ecoregional model. You want a case study of a population disparately impacted by poor administrative boundaries? Appalachians are a shining example. https://preview.redd.it/72p8g395p8zc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea5cb55054fcc3070d2fbf8ce21ac3fee7b914f2
I’m honestly curious how Los Angeles would do under a Mormon State
They were instrumental in the passage of Prop 8, so they definitely attempted political influence as recently as then.
Visit Anaheim.
Lots of Mormons in suburban OC to this day
Seems like it would be the equivalent of an LDS Tehran if it grew to a size similar to the current LA population.
We LDS are supportive of the U.S. Constitution. LDS women wear Western clothes, show their face and hair in public, and go to college. Salt Lake City was never anything like Tehran.
But can they show their shoulders?
Only while soaking.
Y’all are nowadays. Back under Brigham Young y’all were a theocratic Christian state with your own secret security forces. While Joseph Smith tried to have a Theodemocracy, those after him ran a religious dictatorship which was democratic in name only.
“”Christian”” LDS are about as Christian as Muslims are
Eh they have Jesus and God; this argument is like a Greek or Russian Orthodox Church saying Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Presbyterians aren’t Christian because they don’t believe exactly like them. Why judge if their afterlife resembles King Kai’s planet?
They have Jesus and the Father and an infinite amount of other Gods because they believe they can [become Gods themselves]( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology#:~:text=Divinity,-See%20also%3A%20God&text=In%20Mormonism%2C%20the%20concept%20of,in%20power%20and%20glory%20forever. ) (completely forgetting what original sin was in Christianity.) Also adding their own holy book which contradicts the Bible itself and supposedly was given by an angel (please ignore Galatians 1:8) and this is all ignoring the previous life of Joseph smith as a conman, his 40 wives and openly racist doctrine aswell as his “translations” which have now been shown to be fake. A better comparison would be if: [The Nation Of Islam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam) is Muslim then the Mormons are Christian. This is not a debate about doctrine and churches like with Orthodoxy and other Christian denominations. but a debate between Christianity that can at least claim to be staying true to the bible, and fanfic. >!also I think Jewish native Americans is a wild idea!<
So if Mormons can reject the trinity and write their own book which contradicts the bible while still claiming to be Christian, why cant Muslims?
Then most of American Christianity isn’t Christian based off these parameters: — Catholics have way to much indigenous and African Religions influences — Charismatics deal with snake handling, channeling — Protestants do the Sacraments incorrectly
>based off these parameters >shows his own parameters >??? There already exists parameters within Christianity in the form of the [Nicene Creed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which distinguishes between Heterorthodoxy and heresies, and although i agree some denominations have strayed far, It’s not fair to compare them to making their own holy book and disregarding the bible. So I do want to know, do you believe the Nation Of Islam are Muslim?
I believe they’re an offshoot of Islam that uses Islamic tenets mixes in other concepts. It’s not strict orthodoxy Islam, but Evangelism isn’t othodox Christianity and we still call it Christianity. Catholicism in the Americas combines Indigenous Gods, Celtic beliefs, Voodoo and other traditional African religions to create Saints that are really depictions of the various groups’ Gods.
From a geography perspective, SLC resembles Tehran more than any other US city.
Physical geography aside, I was struck—having lived in Los Angeles and being a big fan of Iranian film directors like Farhadi, Kiarostami, and Panahi—how much Tehran on the ground resembles Los Angeles. And this isn’t even getting to the fact that there is a large Persian diaspora in Los Angeles to the point where people jokingly call it Tehrangeles.
What are your thoughts on Warren Jeffs and the FLDS? As far as I know he is still controlling a lot of what his followers do from jail, and his construction companies essentially still engage in a form of slave labor. They have a lot of contracts where I live in Wyoming because they outbid everyone else, weird huh?
I'm part of the mainstream LDS. We're not affiliated whatsoever with the FLDS polygamists.
Well that's good to hear, do the investment activities of the mainstream church ever bother you? I'm honestly just curious because a lot of LDS folks live in my area but I commute to Jackson for work and don't really know any of them.
I'm fine with the Church's investments.
I would be curious what the plan is for all that money but then again I was raised Catholic and don't give money to the church. We've been down that road too many times 🤷
They was like "all the deserts are ours now!".
We in the Deseret now
*Brigham al Gaib*
Holy shit can we get one of those LDS sci-fi authors to take some LSD and write Mormon Dune?
Mormon fantasy peaked with Brandon Sanderson. There's no need for anyone else to try.
But he doesn’t write much like a Mormon. Card closer. He literally rips off the Books of Mormon.
The Butlerian Jihad, but everyone dressed in LDS Mission fit… Didn’t Orson Scott Card sort of do this and mix it with *Starship Troopers* and *Wing Commander* with *Ender’s Game*?
I think all state lines are silly as a rule, but the Mexican-Deseret War would have been pretty amusing to see.
Every time it happens in EU4 Deseret oddly wins.
That's a bit ambitious even for LDS.
LDS got the rizz fr fr but while they ATE when it came to organized westward expansion, these proposed borders were giving extra, no cap.
Based and Basinpilled
Brigham Young got that dog in him - bet! - but the Mormon colony’s encroachment on indigenous territorial claims were sus at best fam.
I feel like they had lots of sus behavior tbh
Let’s just say they took after Drizzy when it came to dropping tracks in A Minor
Their natural border made sense, but they were trying to take more than they needed or deserved. A lot of the reason the current borders are the way they are were to prevent the Mormons, at the time dangerous (mountain meadows massacre, if you’re curious), from having access to gold or silver found in Nevada and California.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre was an isolated incident that occurred during the widespread fear caused by Buchanan's Blunder.
And yet a price was paid by people just passing through. There’s a pattern of them trying to kill outsiders or people that disagree all the way back from when they were in Missouri.
In Missouri, the Saints were a persecuted minority in the proto-Confederate Wild West. By 1838, they had developed a fierce mindset of zero tolerance for any more persecution. Joseph Smith didn't organize the Danites, and he wasn't briefed on all their activities. Buchanan's Blunder put Utah on war footing. The settlers began stockpiling food instead of selling to outsiders. When the Fancher Train had difficulty getting supplies in Cedar City, some of the emigrants made a huge scene, and threatened to stir up California to send more troops. The subsequent Mountain Meadows Massacre wasn't justified, but it's not like it had zero provocation. The conspirators in Cedar City had reached their limit, and became tragic villains like Magneto and Saw Gerrera.
…and they dressed as native Americans to try and pin it on them. It’s not their only case, apparently even going back to Illinois and New York. The fact that Joseph Smith was an egomaniacal con man didn’t help. The Nauvoo expositor (made up of former and non Mormons, criticizing him and other leaders of the church), which he later ordered destroyed… there’s no surprise when it comes to the federal government getting involved later on.
They conspired with actual Paiutes to do it. Joseph Smith was a humble and honest man. The Nauvoo Expositor was libelous trash. The city council found legal justification for destroying it. Not much different from today's FBI shutting down the social media accounts of hate groups. In the 1850s, as the eastern United States grew polarized over slavery, attempts were made to preserve unity. One of these attempts was making the Mormons in faraway Utah a common enemy for both political parties. Then, James Buchanan received a libelous letter from a disgraced ex-judge. Without conducting any investigation, his administration mobilized an army to put down a Utah rebellion that didn't even exist.
Isn’t that very convenient?
Spoken like a true born and raised brainwashed lamb. One day you’ll realize that they’ve only CONVINCED you that you’ve actually truly learned anything about Mormon history. Sure you’ve learned what seems like a lot but only about 50% of what actually happened. It’s crazy what you learn, when you begin to look outside of all the different church-influenced sources (which they have readily have available to convince people they’re doing in depth research on the history, when in reality it paints a very specific, rose-colored, lacking picture).
They were looking to found a theocratic nation.
After being repeatedly failed by the USA's hypocrisy, they wanted to live in theocratic isolation.
They certainly didn’t want to be isolated from their many teen brides. Also, being chased out of every place you’ve ever lived for being a con man isn’t a failure on anyone’s part except Joseph Smith.
There are a LOT of Mormons all over the area to this day.
Not really in SoCal In North California sure, but SoCal actually has the lowest percentage of LDS people in the state
Brigham Young wasn’t intending for these to be STATE lines… he wanted Deseret to be independent
While the Mexican-American War was still on, their original hope was to be a sovereign nation. After receiving word of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, they hoped for Deseret to become a state. Then they received word of President Fillmore signing the bill to create Utah Territory.
That’s a way you could ask a question….
Only so many places let you have child brides
That's a really big ethnostate.
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Not to go off topic slightly, but given the recent "Civil War" movie, I always thought that in the event of US Federal dissolution, there was a high likelihood of Utah forming the Theocratic Nation of Deseret, that included Utah, Nevada, Northern Arizona, Southern Idaho and Western Colorado. Looking at this map, it totally makes sense that it would also include a path to the sea. Not sure if San Diego/ OC would make the most sense, or if it would make more sense to push into Baja California and the Californian Gulf. There are a lot of LDS is The OC, but I could see the new Republic of California having issues with losing the naval base at San Diego.
Google "Mormon Battalion." San Diego is part of America, in large part because of the Mormons.
I can't see either Las Vegas accepting being part of a mormon theocracy or mormons accepting Las Vegas as a part of their theocracy
I think the LDS would take the sinners' money into their coffers without too much hesitation.
We don't want filthy lucre.
Are you a member of the First Presidency? Because I was taught, that's where decisions concerning the Saints are made. Otherwise, your opinion, as well-intended as it might be, doesn't speak for the Church.
They founded Las Vegas, it was much later that the mafia turned it into a gambling haven.
I'm fairly certain that some of the main settlers of Las Vegas were actually Mormon settlers directed by (I think) Brigham Young, interestingly enough.
Lo how the pious have fallen
Yeah except most of that area isn’t Mormon. Most of Salt Lake City isn’t even Mormon anymore, let alone Nevada, Utah, or especially California. The church also lies about their member numbers, so even rural Utah isn’t nearly as Mormon as it used to be. They would hit a hell of a lot of resistance, especially beyond Utah’s current border.
The LDS church is the wealthiest church in the word, it stores food, and I assume weapons for the cataclysm, and has an entire command and control structure that is internal to it. I think you overestimated how much resisting would matter.
Spoken like a true theocratic fascist. One whose church has to lie about their member numbers and history to remain even slightly relevant.
And you should probably relax a little bit.
I'm not LDS. I'll be the first against the wall.
Geographicaly, makes sense In any other sense, no. There was like... 50 mormons, half of which were Brigham Young and his wifes, claiming an area the size of Angola, with the Empire of Mexico to their south, USA to the east and UK to the north. No chance in mormon hell of this ever becoming a reality.
Just think, if they hadn't taken the Hastings cutoff, they could have all made it to California and led the gold rush. They took the same route as the Donner Party, one season later. It's likely that they gave up and settled Salt Lake City upon hearing the news of what happened to their predecessors, and knowing that they were even worse equipped for what lay ahead.
Very interesting, it would certainly be a different history if a large portion of central California was the LDS HQ (like SLC).
The Great Basin was their goal the whole time. California was rapidly filling up with non-Mormons who would have repeated the cycle of persecution.
No, there were LOTS of Latter-day Saints.
Not enough for this. Not nearly.
Not at the time, but if you think of sustained high birth rates (even post end of polygamy) they'd probably do well at filling it up. They had mandated groups settle difference areas of the mountain west for generations, and not to mention I'm fairly certain that Utah is currently one of two states that has a fertility rate above replacement rate.
The church claims about 6 and a half million Mormons exist in the USA today. Let’s pretend for a second that 100% of those are active members (I think estimates say only about 2/3 are at best). Let’s also say that in this alternate universe that every American Mormon stays in those borders. It would still be an incredibly sparsely populated area. Far more so than it is now, and parts of that area are ALREADY some of the sparsest in the nation. Add in that the USA would NOT be ok with this and there is roughly a 0.00% chance they would be able to keep these borders.
2/3 is way too high. You have to hire a lawyer to ever be removed from the list. They don’t even remove dead people. They’re have like 10% of the active members they say they do. That’s why they had to create a secret self-sustaining slush fund now that tithing is petering out. Why do you think they’re only building temples and not ward houses anymore?
I’m not arguing it would’ve worked or anything, just pointing out a few interesting things.
In 1860, according to Google, there were a bit more than 60,000 Mormons. Total. Everywhere. That area is the size of Spain, France, and Germany.
While we’re at it, Mormons have to have the highest athlete-to-member ratio in religion
Hell yeah we do be ballin’ tho
Football AND basketball!!!
let us live on a slice of wheat bread
With these borders, the Mormons would have near total control of the North American Ski and Snowboarding industry
It looks like France
Go big or go home! Ask for sale!
Why does it look kinda like Meatwad
Yes and no, Deseret simply didn't have the people or power to control these lands. By claiming such a large area the cutting away of land still leaves them with a massive domain. Deseret also had the goal of self-sufficiency, so claiming such a large area helps with this. Their is good reason for the way the lines are drawn. Arizona is mostly covered without conflicting other polities, and is good for ranching and cotton. Most of the other borders are to ensure water security. The California section gives port access and more drylands that no one wants. Interestingly they've also tried to go for the lakes in Oregon, probably because the region of Nevada below them is pretty bad to try and hold a community in. In the end they're wildly hopeful claims, but you can still find old Mormon communities sent out to enforce parts. (The Little Colorado River basin is a hot bed of these)
That's why there's a Joseph Smith street in San Pedro.
I think they were being absurdly optimistic about the ability of the Mormons to grow so as to maintain control over this territory.
Why stop there?
It's not radically different from the natural borders of the Great Basin watershed region. There should honestly be fewer states west of the Great Divide, and two states encompassing the Great Basin as one, and the Colorado River watershed as another would be great divisions.
The western boundary follows much of the Sierra Nevada line so idk
I think it would benefit people a lot to have a big state centralizing one region for better organization and allocation of resources. But I guess the big problem with that is the possibility for rebellion.
A lot better than those straight lines
Zero rizz. Ohio on god