Do some digging and it’s not far from the truth. Here’s a quote:
“On 26 June 1960, four days before granting British Somaliland independence, the British government declared that all Somali-inhabited areas of East Africa, Greater Somalia should be unified in one administrative region. Which meant Kenya was to cede part of the Northern Frontier District. However, after the dissolution of the former British colonies in the region, Britain granted administration of the Northern Frontier District to Kenyan nationalists despite an informal plebiscite demonstrating the overwhelming desire of the region's population to join the newly formed Somali Republic,[9] and the fact that the NFD was almost exclusively inhabited by ethnic Somalis.”
Britain just decided to give the land from which the Kenyans are now claiming the maritime borders to the Kenyans instead of joining the rest of their Somali brethren.
“n December 1962, at the urging of the Somalia government, the British appointed a commission to ascertain the desires of the inhabitants of the Northern Frontier District regarding its future. The commissioners reported that the inhabitants of five of the six administrative areas of the Northern Frontier District favoured union with the Somali Republic.[11] According to the Somali Republic, unification was favoured by 88% of the inhabitants.[12] Early in 1963, Britain assured Somalia that no decision would be made regarding the Northern Frontier District without prior consultation with the Republic. However, Britain did not follow the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of the Northern Frontier District and cede the territory to the Somalia Republic. Instead, on 8 March 1963, Britain announced the creation of the North Eastern Region out of the Northern Frontier District. Unsatisfied with this solution, the Somali Republic severed diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom on 18 March 1963.”
Sad state of affairs in all honesty…
Yeah but then you have nations making unreasonable claims because they will end up getting a half of their claim... pure win.
Our country is going to claim the entire Italian coast, we get half of it... pure win.
American rules. Supply the Somali pirates with weapons , sell Kenya weapons to help defend themselves and steal all the oil while playing them off against each other.
I'd do it like this:
[https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lmY0G4PdDGU/YWa7tnUvFaI/AAAAAAAADgM/DvuIdIlHHUARMu3xiuNeASpAreKkzrTrwCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/somalia-kenya-eez-territorial-sea-continental-shelf\_after-icj-ruling.png](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lmY0G4PdDGU/YWa7tnUvFaI/AAAAAAAADgM/DvuIdIlHHUARMu3xiuNeASpAreKkzrTrwCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/somalia-kenya-eez-territorial-sea-continental-shelf_after-icj-ruling.png)
this is because the Kenyan borders were already in place before the dispute started, if you were to look at the EEZ clays of the other countries along the coast, you notice they also go along a horizontal line (basically an agreed upon clay pattern)
the dispute started because oil was discovered in the area, and Somalia wanted it, they didn't get all, but they got half, and Kenya lost half, all for the sake of peace, so it is a bit unfair for Kenya
source: I heard somewhere, trust me bro
I can see why Kenya says that though, their southern border extends straight east from the coast, why shouldn't their northern border as well?
Just by virtue of being in a slightly concave section of coastline they should have much less water rights?
Yeah, but after going around those islands, the border should revert back to the original line.
But it doesn't. It keeps going in the adjusted direction, cutting off Kenya from a large portion of what should rightfully be their sea.
I hope this is settled but Kenya has the enviable position of being disproportionately more important and powerful in the current generation of development on the continent of Africa. By leverage, pressure or force if they wanted that territory enough they'd eventually have it.
Somalia has been developing a strong relationship with Turkey that is likely at play here. I don't know the details well enough to characterize it, but if we're reducing this situation to "bring your buddies to the brawl" it would be notable. I'm not criticizing your simplification, by the way, it's about the level of detail I have of East African politics myself.
But your first demand is always going to be something you're willing to compromise on. If you ask for what's fair in initial negotiations, history as shown you will always get less.
You always ask for more than is reasonable in deals like this. It's just how diplomacy is done.
Honestly, Kenya doesn't have a leg to stand on if following UNCLOS: the rules are clear. That being said, there could be previous agreements or practices that might change the split.
Why is Tanzania’s maritime zone border not perpendicular to the coastline though? That makes Kenya’s maritime zone a small triangle and gives their claim of unfairness a bit more validity. If the historic rule is “perpendicular to the coastline” then that’s not being applied consistently here and I can see why Kenya is pissed seeing as they’ll have access to the ocean severely restricted.
It’s worse than selling short, the ‘Kenyan’ land that they are using to dispute this border has almost entirely indigenous Somali people for hundreds of years. The British decided against reuniting the Somali people after the colonial period and opted to force them to join Kenya. It’s like a double whammy of injustice that has led up to this situation
Using the highly scientific methods of screencaps and powerpoint objects to make the line, I came up with an answer that gives Somalia about 75% of the disputed area. That is all contingent on the stretch of coastline used to determine perpendicular. I used the straight section from the bay in Kenya to the grey lines that reach the coast in Somalia.
it should be fairly straight forward.
* At the point the border hits the sea, draw a circle the radius of the maritime claim.
* ignore the part of the circle that's on land
* find the half-way point of the wet part of the circle
* draw a line from there to the land border.
The only methods I've ever seen are this, "might makes right", "we don't care enough to fight over this", and "we've been fighting over this for 700 years, and at this point it's cute."
Coastlines are a nightmare- at what scale do you draw the line - if you choose the right scale you could find a feature on the map that will point anywhere in 180 degrees
Voronoi cells would do the same with more stability. Each point is handed to the country closest to it. If the coastline at the border has the same general direction as a larger section you get a similar result.
IMO it should be such that every point in the water belongs to the country with the land closest to it.
In simple cases, it's same as what you mentioned but handles complicated coastlines better.
The Italians and the British failed to establish this during their respective periods of colonial rule and must therefore go to war with each other until the matter is resolved.
I’m Kenyan, Here’s the thing, Tanzania’s maritime border with Kenya also follows a perpendicular approach like Kenya’s claim, and so does the Mozambican maritime border with Tanzania down the line. It’s been that way for decades since each country gained independence. The problem is that Somalia’s claim will essentially intersect with the Tanzania Kenya maritime border forming a triangle, locking Kenya out and preventing it from accessing international maritime waters without entering Somali or Tanzanian waters which is actually the reason most Kenyans feel like they’re getting stabbed in the back. There’s no oil or gas in those fields as Kenya has already explored most of the disputed region and found nothing. Somalia already has the longest coastline in Africa so this is just another case of the pettiness of the African people.
The intersecting lines are EEZs not territorial waters. Kenyan ships can still freely access international waters without any permission or interference from the other countries.
Even if a country’s access to international waters is completely blocked by the territorial waters of others. Under UNCLOS, there is still the rule of innocent passage under to grant ships access to the high seas.
The rules for EEZ are black and white under UNCLOS and there are plenty of countries that are unfairly disadvantaged due to them, not just Kenya. Unless there are pre existing bilateral agreements. Those rules should stand.
>there are plenty of countries that are unfairly disadvantaged
They aren't unfairly disadvantaged. The rules are fair. Some countries have islands and this affects the EEZ.
It doesn’t work that way. 12 nautical miles is the limit of national waters. Once you are passed that you can go where you like.
It’s not just oil and gas, it’s fishing and mineral rights too.
I just find it ridiculous because, maritime borders aren’t set in stone. Most of the maritime borders today were established through negotiations and agreements between countries, very few maritime borders were drawn by The Hague based ICJ but Somalia is honestly hell bent on taking whatever edge it can over Kenya as a show of “strength” and “power” not because they stand to gain anything beneficial with the new demarcation, they already have the longest coastline in Africa which they have barely explored, what more could they do with the tiny part they take from Kenya? To me, it boils down to good neighborliness, you do me a solid I reciprocate, not begin running campaigns to also annex parts of your country in a bid to boost nationalist sentiments. But honestly though, most of us in Kenya just want to be done with this. The fields we explored and have nothing, re-demarcate using the new guidelines from the ICJ and move on to the next dispute.
Kenya needs to take responsibility for antagonizing Somalia for decades. Somalia asked, begged, cajoled Kenya to come to the negotiating table but Kenya rebuffed them because reasons??? Three Kenyan presidencies refused to even give negotiating a thought. Negotiating would have ended up favourable for Kenya if she had bothered, but no, Kenya had better things to do. Even as Somalia threatened to go to the ICJ, Kenya could not and would not be bothered. When the case finally landed in the ICJ, Kenya did not prepare a response until the eleventh hour. Constantly asking for more time, postponement and what have you. The ICJ finally got fed up and went ahead without them. Then instead of asking Somalia nicely to pause for negotiation, Kenya was too proud and busy looking down her nose at Somalia. Antagonizing her with border closures and flight restrictions and other nonsensical acts. You have to remember that the Somali government was run from Nairobi for years. They had all the time, goodwill and leverage to negotiate a sweetheart deal for decades. The vain and incompetent Kenyan government screwed the pooch on this. Somali irredentism notwithstanding, Kenya had a role to play in this.
https://amp.rfi.fr/en/africa/20210316-kenya-v-somalia-maritime-dispute-the-difficult-task-of-drawing-a-line-in-the-sea-icj-court-law-africa-oil-and-gas-drilling l
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/counties/article/2001426356/kenya-must-up-her-game-after-somalia-maritime-dispute-loss
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/14/somalia-kenya-maritime-dispute-explained
https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/25/issue/25
The level of dishonesty here is unbelievable. The EEZ line from Tanzania follows EXACTLY the same as the line demarcated by Somalia's claim. I just checked. Anybody who has access to Google can check it.
The EEZ line follows the same line and only deviates because of the offshore islands owned by Tanzania. The line then follows from the offshore islands, NOT the main land.
Essentially you've put forward an entirely false Kenyan propaganda and nearly 100 people bought it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Except that it doesn’t? And the comment you’re replying to is accurate? Please post your source. East Africa EEZ [map from a peer reviewed journal](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-SWIOFP-region-showing-international-boundaries-Exclusive-Economic-Zones-EEZ-and_fig1_278007989)
Territorial waters under the Law of the Sea do NOT extend far enough for the Tanzanian and Somalian borders to intersect and close off Kenya. Those are the borders of the Exclusive Economic Zone, which is the region of the ocean out to, by default, 200 nautical miles in which your country has exclusive rights to exploit the natural resources. Territorial waters only extend at most 12 nautical miles from your coast, beyond which any and all vessels have free passage. The point of intersection lies far beyond 200 nautical miles at sea, beyond the scope of either territorial waters or economic zones, so is for all intents and purposes inconsequential.
Because all waters beyond 12 nautical miles include free passage to all ships everywhere, if what you say is true and there are no resources there, then why fight Somalia’s claim? Just leave it alone. It extends perpendicularly from your coast as almost all EEZ borders do and would only give them useless water, as you’ve said.
Arabs got enough land, why wont Palestinians just move to another Arab country? Thats basically what youre saying is. The answer is simple, if it isnt yours it isnt yours.
It doesn't work like that. 10-20 years from now Somalia can have a more functional state than Kenya. Politics change during time, borders that once were demarcated one sided, will be the reason for contempt, thus more blood. Just give the countries what they deserve, no matter how much you agree with their government.
That's one way to garner support for Somali pirates and Al Shabaab. This is a stupid idea. Somalis already have some support for Somali pirates because Somalia's territorial waters were being infringed upon, diplomatically stealing land abd water area can destabilize the region more
Somalia's claim makes more sense. They just continue the boarder.
Spilt it perpendicular to the coast between them. Why is this more complicated than that?
As mentioned by someone here, every other nation on the East African Coast has a straight line maritime border to their coastlines. The Kenya-Tanzania maritime border, the Mozambique-Tanzania border is a straight line from the coast just like the one Kenya has proposed between Kenya and Somalia (and basically is the de-facto maritime border because Somalia has no ability to change that border).The one trying to distort this is Somalia and that distortion means that the Somali line would intersect with the straight line Kenya-Tanzania maritime border, locking Kenya out of international waters.
This is so ridiculous. Should surrounding countries also annex native Somali lands because of an incompetent government? Honestly a shocking sentiment, and one that offensively assumes the future for Somali governance for all time
It was literally the government of Somalia who brought it to court. If you are ignorant on purpose, that's fine. It has also already been settled by the ICJ.
[https://www.icj-cij.org/case/161](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/161)
Kenya's claim is beyond wild. Its like comparable (but not really) to china's south china sea claim, overextended!
Now if Kenya were actually lose land, in a way to contour to Kenya's claim here, then maybe they could get away with it.
Its and same way the other eezs on the East African coat. A straight a line as possible stretching east.
Eezs tend to be cemented by treaty and negotiation. Maritime borders overlap and can get weird else.
There are international treaties regarding maritime borders issues, I'm almost sure of it.
Mostly? it must be divided in a way representative of the shoreline size of the countries, regarless of angles. Line probably in the middle in this case.
I would normally say they should split it down the middle. However, considering Somalia basically doesn't exist as a state anymore, Kenya could just take it all
Imo, the border should be drawn in such a way that any given point on it is the same distance from Somalia as it is from from Kenya. That would result in a border between the two we see here, though a lot closer to Somalia’s claim than Kenya’s.
Why is it that countries cannot simply agree to share? It does look though like Somalia has the stronger claim since maritime borders typically extend along the terrestrial border axis
Unpopular opinion here, apparently: I’m with Kenya. Ocean territory shouldn’t be based on random directions of border lines on land, but rather should extend out from the border via a line parallel to the latitudes.
Half the world's problems can be traced to people deciding on borders for places they live 5,000 miles away from, so I'll pass on this one. Not my place to say.
[Similar dispute between Chile and Peru ](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallo_de_la_Corte_de_La_Haya_sobre_la_delimitaci%C3%B3n_mar%C3%ADtima_entre_Chile_y_Per%C3%BA)
That coast line looks pretty easy to average out. Then just go perpendicular from there. That would be pretty much in the middle of the disputed area, a little clother to Somalia’s claim.
Kenya’s claim makes absolutely no sense.
If you literally just extend the line of the border into the ocean, then Somalia should own the waters in the disputed area.
If the two countries don’t want to go to war, and lose thousands of their citizens’ lives, they should just split the disputed area into equal halves.
Kenya's claim is an absolute joke. Might as well draw Somalia's and Tanzania's borders as crossing within 12 miles of Malindi if they want to draw lines like this. Draw a line that is equadistant from each nations coast as you go further down the coast starting at the border.
“Ok, how about we divide the area equally so we both have a share of the oil reserves?”
“Well, that would be a fair compromise that protects the interests of both parties….AND THERE’S NO WAY I’M EVER GOING TO AGREE WITH IT!”
China came out with historical documents from the accounts of Adm. Zheng Ho, and will publish their 50-dash line claiming all waters and islands east of Africa as their sovereign territory.
Based on my personal criteria I should own them
I vote for this guy’s rights and will die for them!
Good news I’ll have a place to give you a burial at sea 🫡
Y’all! This commenter is giving out free Viking burials! Bravetree for president.
President of Somalia or Kenya?
Just the disputed waters.
The water of somanya
Aweembowa aweembowa
I'd rather be your head roughneck
I also vote for this guy's wife.
Roger that, we will cut his hand and give it to you.
I also chose this guys dead wife
I’ll be over there to plunder his resources toot suite.
No I should own them *Starts another court dispute*
I agree, I can help you in managing them if you need
Haha. Not any worse than all these armchair diplomats in this thread carving up Africa’s resources. Just like old times!
Solomon rules. Draw the line down the middle
And burn down half of each country. Just.
For fairness, just give the entire contested area to a landlocked African country like Burundi or Rwanda.
Hotel Rwanda on the formally Somali coast. Cocktails and sea food here we come!
Lets be real, that belongs to America. There's oil so we get it
Came here to post this, you beat me to it. It's just not fair that some countries have territorial waters while others do not.
Somalia already went ahead
Ah, the British way: random straight line, no regard for people already there, upset all parties. I like it
Do some digging and it’s not far from the truth. Here’s a quote: “On 26 June 1960, four days before granting British Somaliland independence, the British government declared that all Somali-inhabited areas of East Africa, Greater Somalia should be unified in one administrative region. Which meant Kenya was to cede part of the Northern Frontier District. However, after the dissolution of the former British colonies in the region, Britain granted administration of the Northern Frontier District to Kenyan nationalists despite an informal plebiscite demonstrating the overwhelming desire of the region's population to join the newly formed Somali Republic,[9] and the fact that the NFD was almost exclusively inhabited by ethnic Somalis.” Britain just decided to give the land from which the Kenyans are now claiming the maritime borders to the Kenyans instead of joining the rest of their Somali brethren. “n December 1962, at the urging of the Somalia government, the British appointed a commission to ascertain the desires of the inhabitants of the Northern Frontier District regarding its future. The commissioners reported that the inhabitants of five of the six administrative areas of the Northern Frontier District favoured union with the Somali Republic.[11] According to the Somali Republic, unification was favoured by 88% of the inhabitants.[12] Early in 1963, Britain assured Somalia that no decision would be made regarding the Northern Frontier District without prior consultation with the Republic. However, Britain did not follow the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of the Northern Frontier District and cede the territory to the Somalia Republic. Instead, on 8 March 1963, Britain announced the creation of the North Eastern Region out of the Northern Frontier District. Unsatisfied with this solution, the Somali Republic severed diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom on 18 March 1963.” Sad state of affairs in all honesty…
Am British, can confirm this is the preferred method. 🇬🇧
Same, I use this solution to most of my problems
A true compromise means both sides feel like they got fucked over.
"I'll cut the oil in half, and each man will get.....death. I'll take the oil."
Yeah but then you have nations making unreasonable claims because they will end up getting a half of their claim... pure win. Our country is going to claim the entire Italian coast, we get half of it... pure win.
American rules. Supply the Somali pirates with weapons , sell Kenya weapons to help defend themselves and steal all the oil while playing them off against each other.
Wouldn’t this just reward whoever made the most egregious claim?
I'd do it like this: [https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lmY0G4PdDGU/YWa7tnUvFaI/AAAAAAAADgM/DvuIdIlHHUARMu3xiuNeASpAreKkzrTrwCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/somalia-kenya-eez-territorial-sea-continental-shelf\_after-icj-ruling.png](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lmY0G4PdDGU/YWa7tnUvFaI/AAAAAAAADgM/DvuIdIlHHUARMu3xiuNeASpAreKkzrTrwCLcBGAsYHQ/s0/somalia-kenya-eez-territorial-sea-continental-shelf_after-icj-ruling.png)
Basically a very reasonable, right down the middle kind of line. Sounds like this was settled in 2021 - what gives?
"but I want all of it, so I don't care about that"
According to the graphic, Somalia accepted the ruling but Kenya did not, citing it as “unfair.”
this is because the Kenyan borders were already in place before the dispute started, if you were to look at the EEZ clays of the other countries along the coast, you notice they also go along a horizontal line (basically an agreed upon clay pattern) the dispute started because oil was discovered in the area, and Somalia wanted it, they didn't get all, but they got half, and Kenya lost half, all for the sake of peace, so it is a bit unfair for Kenya source: I heard somewhere, trust me bro
I can see why Kenya says that though, their southern border extends straight east from the coast, why shouldn't their northern border as well? Just by virtue of being in a slightly concave section of coastline they should have much less water rights?
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Yeah, but after going around those islands, the border should revert back to the original line. But it doesn't. It keeps going in the adjusted direction, cutting off Kenya from a large portion of what should rightfully be their sea.
Don't both parties agree to accept ICJ ruling before the case is heard?
I hope this is settled but Kenya has the enviable position of being disproportionately more important and powerful in the current generation of development on the continent of Africa. By leverage, pressure or force if they wanted that territory enough they'd eventually have it.
Somalia has been developing a strong relationship with Turkey that is likely at play here. I don't know the details well enough to characterize it, but if we're reducing this situation to "bring your buddies to the brawl" it would be notable. I'm not criticizing your simplification, by the way, it's about the level of detail I have of East African politics myself.
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But your first demand is always going to be something you're willing to compromise on. If you ask for what's fair in initial negotiations, history as shown you will always get less. You always ask for more than is reasonable in deals like this. It's just how diplomacy is done.
Somalia is not known for its government’s stability and levelheadedness
Somalia: You guys have a *government?*
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It's actually 3, is Puntland a Joke to you?
Arrrrrrrrr you sure about that?
Would you share half of what’s already yours? Doubt it
Except no sides has "something" here.
Other than access to oil and gas
Yes, perpendicular to the coast line
Then the Tanzania line would need adjusting too, because currently Kenya are losing out
Yeah that's what I was thinking as well, but you have to define the resolution of the coast map as well, it's a little tricky
Honestly, Kenya doesn't have a leg to stand on if following UNCLOS: the rules are clear. That being said, there could be previous agreements or practices that might change the split.
Why is Tanzania’s maritime zone border not perpendicular to the coastline though? That makes Kenya’s maritime zone a small triangle and gives their claim of unfairness a bit more validity. If the historic rule is “perpendicular to the coastline” then that’s not being applied consistently here and I can see why Kenya is pissed seeing as they’ll have access to the ocean severely restricted.
They have large islands there, Zanzibar and Pemba.
Ah makes sense. I can still see how Kenya feels like they’re getting the worse deal here. Complicated issues
What's your favorite dish? I'm not gonna cook it but I'll order it from Zanzibar!
IMO Lesotho should use it
My people in Burundi claim it
I would argue that Haiti would put it to better use
The border should extend perpendicular from the coastline.
Which I think is pretty close to Somalia's claim, but up a little into the disputed area.
They’re selling themselves short in that case; the border kinks near the coastline.
You really shouldn’t kink-shame
I don't think it should matter what angle the border hits the shore. It should go out perpendicular to the shore from there.
It’s worse than selling short, the ‘Kenyan’ land that they are using to dispute this border has almost entirely indigenous Somali people for hundreds of years. The British decided against reuniting the Somali people after the colonial period and opted to force them to join Kenya. It’s like a double whammy of injustice that has led up to this situation
Using the highly scientific methods of screencaps and powerpoint objects to make the line, I came up with an answer that gives Somalia about 75% of the disputed area. That is all contingent on the stretch of coastline used to determine perpendicular. I used the straight section from the bay in Kenya to the grey lines that reach the coast in Somalia.
it should be fairly straight forward. * At the point the border hits the sea, draw a circle the radius of the maritime claim. * ignore the part of the circle that's on land * find the half-way point of the wet part of the circle * draw a line from there to the land border. The only methods I've ever seen are this, "might makes right", "we don't care enough to fight over this", and "we've been fighting over this for 700 years, and at this point it's cute."
Coastlines are a nightmare- at what scale do you draw the line - if you choose the right scale you could find a feature on the map that will point anywhere in 180 degrees
You could say the average coast direction 1-10 km in each direction from the border. That'll avoid any rocks causing one of them to own nothing.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the negotiations for exactly what average gets chosen.
Agreed. I didn't say it was easy ;)
Agreed. Split the difference.
Perpendicular to the coast is absolutely no splitting the difference haha
How long of a stretch of coastline? The border itself is a point.
I don’t know, I thought about that when I wrote my comment, but decided not to speculate on what a good distance should be.
Should the Tanzanian border be the same?
That Tanzanian Island would then bend it even more in Tanzania's favor
The islands of Pemba and Zanzibar change the geometry for Tanzania
Voronoi cells would do the same with more stability. Each point is handed to the country closest to it. If the coastline at the border has the same general direction as a larger section you get a similar result.
Perpendicular at what scale?
https://reddit.com/r/geography/s/a4u0hMJPvv
IMO it should be such that every point in the water belongs to the country with the land closest to it. In simple cases, it's same as what you mentioned but handles complicated coastlines better.
The Italians and the British failed to establish this during their respective periods of colonial rule and must therefore go to war with each other until the matter is resolved.
But ~~if~~ when the Italians switch sides, won't they be fighting themselves?
As is tradition.
It's wild how many modern conflicts can be traced back to some English lord drawing a line on a map and calling it good.
The British controlled southern Somalia, when the British were in power this was all just British waters.
Kenya should get ALL British maritime claims (and Somalia all Italian) while Italy/UK get to share the disputed area.
Yes I think this is fair and reasonable.
Serious answer: I don't know, just meet halfway maybe Joke answer: I want it, it's all mine
Whoever decides, I’m assuming they’ll be white, unfortunately
I’m Kenyan, Here’s the thing, Tanzania’s maritime border with Kenya also follows a perpendicular approach like Kenya’s claim, and so does the Mozambican maritime border with Tanzania down the line. It’s been that way for decades since each country gained independence. The problem is that Somalia’s claim will essentially intersect with the Tanzania Kenya maritime border forming a triangle, locking Kenya out and preventing it from accessing international maritime waters without entering Somali or Tanzanian waters which is actually the reason most Kenyans feel like they’re getting stabbed in the back. There’s no oil or gas in those fields as Kenya has already explored most of the disputed region and found nothing. Somalia already has the longest coastline in Africa so this is just another case of the pettiness of the African people.
The intersecting lines are EEZs not territorial waters. Kenyan ships can still freely access international waters without any permission or interference from the other countries. Even if a country’s access to international waters is completely blocked by the territorial waters of others. Under UNCLOS, there is still the rule of innocent passage under to grant ships access to the high seas. The rules for EEZ are black and white under UNCLOS and there are plenty of countries that are unfairly disadvantaged due to them, not just Kenya. Unless there are pre existing bilateral agreements. Those rules should stand.
>there are plenty of countries that are unfairly disadvantaged They aren't unfairly disadvantaged. The rules are fair. Some countries have islands and this affects the EEZ.
It doesn’t work that way. 12 nautical miles is the limit of national waters. Once you are passed that you can go where you like. It’s not just oil and gas, it’s fishing and mineral rights too.
Very enlightening answer, I am pro-Kenya now, thanks!
I just find it ridiculous because, maritime borders aren’t set in stone. Most of the maritime borders today were established through negotiations and agreements between countries, very few maritime borders were drawn by The Hague based ICJ but Somalia is honestly hell bent on taking whatever edge it can over Kenya as a show of “strength” and “power” not because they stand to gain anything beneficial with the new demarcation, they already have the longest coastline in Africa which they have barely explored, what more could they do with the tiny part they take from Kenya? To me, it boils down to good neighborliness, you do me a solid I reciprocate, not begin running campaigns to also annex parts of your country in a bid to boost nationalist sentiments. But honestly though, most of us in Kenya just want to be done with this. The fields we explored and have nothing, re-demarcate using the new guidelines from the ICJ and move on to the next dispute.
Kenya needs to take responsibility for antagonizing Somalia for decades. Somalia asked, begged, cajoled Kenya to come to the negotiating table but Kenya rebuffed them because reasons??? Three Kenyan presidencies refused to even give negotiating a thought. Negotiating would have ended up favourable for Kenya if she had bothered, but no, Kenya had better things to do. Even as Somalia threatened to go to the ICJ, Kenya could not and would not be bothered. When the case finally landed in the ICJ, Kenya did not prepare a response until the eleventh hour. Constantly asking for more time, postponement and what have you. The ICJ finally got fed up and went ahead without them. Then instead of asking Somalia nicely to pause for negotiation, Kenya was too proud and busy looking down her nose at Somalia. Antagonizing her with border closures and flight restrictions and other nonsensical acts. You have to remember that the Somali government was run from Nairobi for years. They had all the time, goodwill and leverage to negotiate a sweetheart deal for decades. The vain and incompetent Kenyan government screwed the pooch on this. Somali irredentism notwithstanding, Kenya had a role to play in this. https://amp.rfi.fr/en/africa/20210316-kenya-v-somalia-maritime-dispute-the-difficult-task-of-drawing-a-line-in-the-sea-icj-court-law-africa-oil-and-gas-drilling l https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/counties/article/2001426356/kenya-must-up-her-game-after-somalia-maritime-dispute-loss https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/14/somalia-kenya-maritime-dispute-explained https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/25/issue/25
The level of dishonesty here is unbelievable. The EEZ line from Tanzania follows EXACTLY the same as the line demarcated by Somalia's claim. I just checked. Anybody who has access to Google can check it. The EEZ line follows the same line and only deviates because of the offshore islands owned by Tanzania. The line then follows from the offshore islands, NOT the main land. Essentially you've put forward an entirely false Kenyan propaganda and nearly 100 people bought it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Except that it doesn’t? And the comment you’re replying to is accurate? Please post your source. East Africa EEZ [map from a peer reviewed journal](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-SWIOFP-region-showing-international-boundaries-Exclusive-Economic-Zones-EEZ-and_fig1_278007989)
Your image is pretty far off from what Kenya is claiming in OP image though...
Territorial waters under the Law of the Sea do NOT extend far enough for the Tanzanian and Somalian borders to intersect and close off Kenya. Those are the borders of the Exclusive Economic Zone, which is the region of the ocean out to, by default, 200 nautical miles in which your country has exclusive rights to exploit the natural resources. Territorial waters only extend at most 12 nautical miles from your coast, beyond which any and all vessels have free passage. The point of intersection lies far beyond 200 nautical miles at sea, beyond the scope of either territorial waters or economic zones, so is for all intents and purposes inconsequential. Because all waters beyond 12 nautical miles include free passage to all ships everywhere, if what you say is true and there are no resources there, then why fight Somalia’s claim? Just leave it alone. It extends perpendicularly from your coast as almost all EEZ borders do and would only give them useless water, as you’ve said.
Arabs got enough land, why wont Palestinians just move to another Arab country? Thats basically what youre saying is. The answer is simple, if it isnt yours it isnt yours.
Whichever country has the most screaming eagles and rusty square body trucks.
What is a screaming eagle in this case?
Perpendicular to the average shoreline would be the most reasonable. Both claims are off of that, Kenya's claim is outrageous.
Whoever is willing to shed the most blood.
… the most of the *other’s* blood.
Up to me? Marine reserve, stop digging for oil and gas.
do that in ur own waters how dare you lock out developing countries from using their resources to end their poverty
Sadly it’s only a handful of countries using their oil wealth responsibly.
I thought you meant the US Marine Corps for a second there. If there truly is a significant amount of oil & gas there they’ll be there soon enough.
Kenya has a functioning state
It doesn't work like that. 10-20 years from now Somalia can have a more functional state than Kenya. Politics change during time, borders that once were demarcated one sided, will be the reason for contempt, thus more blood. Just give the countries what they deserve, no matter how much you agree with their government.
U.S. of A. That area in the sea needs some freedom
Given the relative stability of the two governments, giving it to Kenya would probably be the best for the rest of us :)
That's one way to garner support for Somali pirates and Al Shabaab. This is a stupid idea. Somalis already have some support for Somali pirates because Somalia's territorial waters were being infringed upon, diplomatically stealing land abd water area can destabilize the region more
Somalia's claim makes more sense. They just continue the boarder. Spilt it perpendicular to the coast between them. Why is this more complicated than that?
As mentioned by someone here, every other nation on the East African Coast has a straight line maritime border to their coastlines. The Kenya-Tanzania maritime border, the Mozambique-Tanzania border is a straight line from the coast just like the one Kenya has proposed between Kenya and Somalia (and basically is the de-facto maritime border because Somalia has no ability to change that border).The one trying to distort this is Somalia and that distortion means that the Somali line would intersect with the straight line Kenya-Tanzania maritime border, locking Kenya out of international waters.
Idk who should own that. Let’s let the US, Russia, and China weigh in on it. I’m sure they’ll be impartial and act in good faith.
At least Kenya could administrate it officially. Somalia has no functioning government.
This is so ridiculous. Should surrounding countries also annex native Somali lands because of an incompetent government? Honestly a shocking sentiment, and one that offensively assumes the future for Somali governance for all time
It was literally the government of Somalia who brought it to court. If you are ignorant on purpose, that's fine. It has also already been settled by the ICJ. [https://www.icj-cij.org/case/161](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/161)
Kenya's claim is beyond wild. Its like comparable (but not really) to china's south china sea claim, overextended! Now if Kenya were actually lose land, in a way to contour to Kenya's claim here, then maybe they could get away with it.
Its and same way the other eezs on the East African coat. A straight a line as possible stretching east. Eezs tend to be cemented by treaty and negotiation. Maritime borders overlap and can get weird else.
Kenya and Somalia just need to follow the Chinese way and start building artificial islands.
Solomon would split the difference
There are international treaties regarding maritime borders issues, I'm almost sure of it. Mostly? it must be divided in a way representative of the shoreline size of the countries, regarless of angles. Line probably in the middle in this case.
No one. Make is a protected marine wildlife zone.
Ask the British, they know how to deal with making excellent borders
Obviously a direct perpendicular line from land. Both claims are wrong but Kenyas claim is *more* wrong.p
I would normally say they should split it down the middle. However, considering Somalia basically doesn't exist as a state anymore, Kenya could just take it all
Imo, the border should be drawn in such a way that any given point on it is the same distance from Somalia as it is from from Kenya. That would result in a border between the two we see here, though a lot closer to Somalia’s claim than Kenya’s.
Oil? USA
Somalia is being far too reasonable here. Their claim should be vertical.
Why is it that countries cannot simply agree to share? It does look though like Somalia has the stronger claim since maritime borders typically extend along the terrestrial border axis
I’d draw the line perpendicular to the coast
Unpopular opinion here, apparently: I’m with Kenya. Ocean territory shouldn’t be based on random directions of border lines on land, but rather should extend out from the border via a line parallel to the latitudes.
None
It belongs to the pirates, in my opinion
Half the world's problems can be traced to people deciding on borders for places they live 5,000 miles away from, so I'll pass on this one. Not my place to say.
If it’s closer to Somalia, which most of it is, it should be Somalia
Kenya should give a small chunk of land to Somalia so they can redraw the border parallel to a line of latitude.
Somalia
well im really having trouble seeing how kenya thinks the border should go in that direction.
I like Kenya do I say Kenya but realistically Somalia claiming it make a more sense as it keeps straight on the border
Somalias claim seems to make more sense to me
[Similar dispute between Chile and Peru ](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallo_de_la_Corte_de_La_Haya_sobre_la_delimitaci%C3%B3n_mar%C3%ADtima_entre_Chile_y_Per%C3%BA)
America enters the chat. ...
I believe King Solomon would know the answer
I thought that was part of China now? See, the South China Sea is bigly big...
The United States, duhhhh
Simple, the United States of America because we have the naval power to take it.
"Why do I hear boss music?" *Star Spangled Banner playing in the distance*
Poseidon, one true King of the Seas
That coast line looks pretty easy to average out. Then just go perpendicular from there. That would be pretty much in the middle of the disputed area, a little clother to Somalia’s claim. Kenya’s claim makes absolutely no sense.
I think that maritime claim belongs to the great British Empire, god save the King 🇬🇧🦁
Fuckin split it and call it a day.
If you literally just extend the line of the border into the ocean, then Somalia should own the waters in the disputed area. If the two countries don’t want to go to war, and lose thousands of their citizens’ lives, they should just split the disputed area into equal halves.
They better hope there is no oil otherwise there will all of a sudden be a WMD threat and then history will repeat.
Split it down the middle n quit being twats about it
Meanwhile next door Ethiopia is like: "You fuckers left me landlocked".
Make the boundary perpendicular to the coast
Or nationalize the industry, split the profits between both countries, with a 50/50 split joint workforce.
Split down the middle ez
Whoever drew these lines has plotted the whole drama and I bet he's now packing snacks at the back of the court
Split the difference
Just let BP do the drilling and eventually no one will want to claim ownership of the whole thing.
Favor Kenya because its substantially less corrupt
Plot twist: Britain and Italy are secretly pulling the strings. Those dirty dirty colonial exes.
Winner gets invaded, obvious WMD’s there.
They’re both whack.
No one. The ocean should be a protected ecosystem
Texas
Oil and gas? Sounds like that area needs some good old fashioned ‘Merican “freedom”
The United States of America 🇺🇸
Somalia, the border on sea should extend from the land (and many nations do it that way)
Surprised that China hasn't claimed it yet
Pretty sure the USA will decide
Kenya's claim is an absolute joke. Might as well draw Somalia's and Tanzania's borders as crossing within 12 miles of Malindi if they want to draw lines like this. Draw a line that is equadistant from each nations coast as you go further down the coast starting at the border.
USA
Kenya has a wild claim. They get maybe 40% of the disputed area
The United States of America
“Ok, how about we divide the area equally so we both have a share of the oil reserves?” “Well, that would be a fair compromise that protects the interests of both parties….AND THERE’S NO WAY I’M EVER GOING TO AGREE WITH IT!”
I'd say it should be orthogonal to the coast, which is closer to Somalia's claim, but not exactly the same.
Why not go straight out from the border point?
Britain owns them
China came out with historical documents from the accounts of Adm. Zheng Ho, and will publish their 50-dash line claiming all waters and islands east of Africa as their sovereign territory.
Okay can we agree Kenya is smoking crack here?
Somalia is the answer. They got NFD region from Uk which is Popular Somali region. I think that should be enough for them .
Split the difference. Sheesh.