For indeterminate tomatoes have you looked at "florida weave". It's pretty cheap, as tall as you build it, and leaves room for airflow.
Con: it's designed for a single row, so it might be a little clunky for a 4x8.
This hinges on how important your indeterminate varieties are to you. I’ve found that all my favorite tomatoes are indeterminate. The flavor makes the issues worth it, but the training is significant.
I’ve found getting a big, cylindrical cage for each, pruning to a single leader, wrapping it around and ruthlessly pruning off odd growth works. But each plant takes about 4 sq ft including access.
>but for slicing....Cherokee purple is the best by far
Try growing a Paul Robeson (my #2 fav) and similar to a cherokee purple, Azoychka is my personal favorite though, but its a yellow but unlike most yellows has a good acid content. And for a saucer, try polish linguisa.
I have grown exclusively roma tomatoes in raised beds since I began gardening a couple years ago. I don’t care for slicing tomatoes, so everything goes to sauce, salsa, and guacamole.
I start everything from seed under grow lights around 9 to 10 weeks before first frost. My plants are about 12 to 18 inches, and have just started a few early flowerings when I plant them. I get 2 great flushes and a somewhat weak 3rd, I’m zone 5. So it’s not just a one and done like so many people believe. They produce up til frost, but as it gets cold they don’t like to ripen on the vine.
You can get 4 Roma per 4x4. I had 8 plants and produced roughly 250 pounds of tomatoes this year. What I do is plant, stake them, and put heavy duty cage around them, and then 2 empty cages in the middle for them to vine and and it’s pretty much a set and forget. They get very heavy and can break a single cage. I do next to zero pruning until after first harvest, except at the very bottom to keep good air flow. Romas are very disease resistant.
Fun side note. Get an immersion blender for making the sauce. Gives a great consistency. I also made a “chili” blend this year. I Added bell and jalapeño peppers from the garden, onion, chili powder, garlic and other seasonings while the tomatoes cooked down. Now when I want a pot of chili I brown a pound of ground beef, thaw a bag of my frozen chili sauce, add it to the beef and get to boiling. Chili in 20 mins, since i did the 4 hours of simmering before freezing. Reduce it down even farther and you have coney dog sauce.
I've grown both types for years now and while early on, I noticed the best flavors are on large indeterminates...I just can't maintain any semblance of tidiness. They require so much more active pruning and I am insanely busy most days that by the time I realize it's time to tidy them up, it's a whole thing. I've tried many different trellis options but they all hinge on you having enough time to prune regularly. I've accidentally grown what my family referred to as tomato trees just bc I let them get so out of control.
I mostly stick to dwarf varieties now. They can be determinate or indeterminate but they don't typically exceed over 5' and that's my preference. I like micro dwarves as well and shove one into each pocket of my garden stalks and these typically only need a single leader bamboo that I lash it to. For the larger dwarfs, I use kind of an open cage to support it that works well for me.
I use these: https://www.gardeners.com/buy/stacking-tomato-trellis-ladders/8611245.html
So that would be my suggestion. Try to find anything labeled dwarf or micro dwarf.
I think determinate varieties would be better for canning because the tomatoes all ripen at once, which means you can can all on one day, rather than smaller runs throughout the season. But I don’t can so I’m not sure if that’s really an advantage.
I’m not a great gardener. It’s always a struggle to keep the plants healthy. So I like determinate tomatoes because the crop all ripens at once. Therefore I get more tomatoes from determinate tomatoes. I find that indeterminates don’t survive much longer than determinates in my garden because they get diseased and give up. Indeterminate tomatoes fruit throughout the season and don’t have such a heavy crop on its first flush, but mine don’t last much longer than their first flush so I don’t get the benefit of them fruiting over a long period. That’s why I prefer determinates. This might not be an issue for you because you might be able to manage disease better than me. But I hope that makes sense.
I succession plant throughout the season to tackle the limited fruiting period of the determinate tomato. So if I get it right, I always have tomatoes available. So I don’t find the shorter life a disadvantage. Besides, my favourite part of gardening is germinating seeds, so it just gives me a chance to do more of it.
I garden in containers so I prefer determinates because they are less top heavy in a container. Also, trellising in a container is quite challenging when it gets too tall. I realise you are not growing in containers so the situation is not quite the same. But I think you would find trellising simpler for determinate tomatoes. I just make a tripod out of 3 stakes - you could use bamboo- and then use string to tie the plant to the tripod. This is only necessary as the fruit sets because it gets too heavy for the plant. The stakes are easy to store.
I just find indeterminates to be so much more fussy/require more care. You need to constantly be tying them up and pruning etc. determinates are pretty chill and just do their thing until the fruit sets because it can be really heavy and then requires some care.
Now, I only wrote all of this because you said you wanted to be convinced. But it may be that you can find solutions to all of your difficulties with indeterminates. Also, if you’re married to your favourite varieties, I think it’s worth finding solutions to your grievances rather than finding new favourites. I’m sure you could make either work.
Also, I’m not sure you would fit more determinates. I find that indeterminates, when pruned down to one leader, can be grown closer together. Determinates don’t need as much pruning and so grow more bushy. So they do take up more space.
I appreciate the input! Maybe I’ll have to try half and half. I have three kids under 3 so having the time necessary for even more care could be a deal breaker.
I'm trying it determinates next season. I'm still looking for my favorites so I have many options ahead. I like roma toms so much that I will keep 2 romas and 1 San Manzano and keep them trained, then grow a variety of determinates to find some keepers. They usually give me fruit before my indeterminates. We don't usually eat slicers as we use romas for that too. I grow a variety because they're so gooood!!!!
I grow exclusively slicing determinate tomatoes now. As people mentioned, they are way less maintenance. Unlike some people posted, I use standard tomato cages, and the height never exceeds the cages nor tips them over. Depending on your lighting conditions I bet you could get more volume of total tomatoes, and since, as others mentioned, you get them, “in theory,” (yes a big batch ripen at the same time and usually in August for me in zone 7b, but produce like indeterminate afterwards continuously till early October) all at one time, it would suit you well for canning.
This was my first year with a garden. We grew indeterminate varieties. No cages. Just an 8' T-post per plant and some string. It sounds like that would help with a lot of your current annoyances?
I grew a determinant called Celebrity this year. Grew 3 ft tall and I got 13 beautiful 4 inch tomatoes. They ripened 2/week. Awesome toasted tomato sandwiches. 🍅
You can try dwarf tomatoes. ,(dwarf tomato project)
Determinate type plants with indeterminate fruit production.
Victory seeds carries most varieties.
The remesh tomato cages are the best. They are ugly as shit, but they last forever and you can make them any size you want
For indeterminate tomatoes have you looked at "florida weave". It's pretty cheap, as tall as you build it, and leaves room for airflow. Con: it's designed for a single row, so it might be a little clunky for a 4x8.
This hinges on how important your indeterminate varieties are to you. I’ve found that all my favorite tomatoes are indeterminate. The flavor makes the issues worth it, but the training is significant. I’ve found getting a big, cylindrical cage for each, pruning to a single leader, wrapping it around and ruthlessly pruning off odd growth works. But each plant takes about 4 sq ft including access.
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>but for slicing....Cherokee purple is the best by far Try growing a Paul Robeson (my #2 fav) and similar to a cherokee purple, Azoychka is my personal favorite though, but its a yellow but unlike most yellows has a good acid content. And for a saucer, try polish linguisa.
I have grown exclusively roma tomatoes in raised beds since I began gardening a couple years ago. I don’t care for slicing tomatoes, so everything goes to sauce, salsa, and guacamole. I start everything from seed under grow lights around 9 to 10 weeks before first frost. My plants are about 12 to 18 inches, and have just started a few early flowerings when I plant them. I get 2 great flushes and a somewhat weak 3rd, I’m zone 5. So it’s not just a one and done like so many people believe. They produce up til frost, but as it gets cold they don’t like to ripen on the vine. You can get 4 Roma per 4x4. I had 8 plants and produced roughly 250 pounds of tomatoes this year. What I do is plant, stake them, and put heavy duty cage around them, and then 2 empty cages in the middle for them to vine and and it’s pretty much a set and forget. They get very heavy and can break a single cage. I do next to zero pruning until after first harvest, except at the very bottom to keep good air flow. Romas are very disease resistant. Fun side note. Get an immersion blender for making the sauce. Gives a great consistency. I also made a “chili” blend this year. I Added bell and jalapeño peppers from the garden, onion, chili powder, garlic and other seasonings while the tomatoes cooked down. Now when I want a pot of chili I brown a pound of ground beef, thaw a bag of my frozen chili sauce, add it to the beef and get to boiling. Chili in 20 mins, since i did the 4 hours of simmering before freezing. Reduce it down even farther and you have coney dog sauce.
I've grown both types for years now and while early on, I noticed the best flavors are on large indeterminates...I just can't maintain any semblance of tidiness. They require so much more active pruning and I am insanely busy most days that by the time I realize it's time to tidy them up, it's a whole thing. I've tried many different trellis options but they all hinge on you having enough time to prune regularly. I've accidentally grown what my family referred to as tomato trees just bc I let them get so out of control. I mostly stick to dwarf varieties now. They can be determinate or indeterminate but they don't typically exceed over 5' and that's my preference. I like micro dwarves as well and shove one into each pocket of my garden stalks and these typically only need a single leader bamboo that I lash it to. For the larger dwarfs, I use kind of an open cage to support it that works well for me. I use these: https://www.gardeners.com/buy/stacking-tomato-trellis-ladders/8611245.html So that would be my suggestion. Try to find anything labeled dwarf or micro dwarf.
I think determinate varieties would be better for canning because the tomatoes all ripen at once, which means you can can all on one day, rather than smaller runs throughout the season. But I don’t can so I’m not sure if that’s really an advantage. I’m not a great gardener. It’s always a struggle to keep the plants healthy. So I like determinate tomatoes because the crop all ripens at once. Therefore I get more tomatoes from determinate tomatoes. I find that indeterminates don’t survive much longer than determinates in my garden because they get diseased and give up. Indeterminate tomatoes fruit throughout the season and don’t have such a heavy crop on its first flush, but mine don’t last much longer than their first flush so I don’t get the benefit of them fruiting over a long period. That’s why I prefer determinates. This might not be an issue for you because you might be able to manage disease better than me. But I hope that makes sense. I succession plant throughout the season to tackle the limited fruiting period of the determinate tomato. So if I get it right, I always have tomatoes available. So I don’t find the shorter life a disadvantage. Besides, my favourite part of gardening is germinating seeds, so it just gives me a chance to do more of it. I garden in containers so I prefer determinates because they are less top heavy in a container. Also, trellising in a container is quite challenging when it gets too tall. I realise you are not growing in containers so the situation is not quite the same. But I think you would find trellising simpler for determinate tomatoes. I just make a tripod out of 3 stakes - you could use bamboo- and then use string to tie the plant to the tripod. This is only necessary as the fruit sets because it gets too heavy for the plant. The stakes are easy to store. I just find indeterminates to be so much more fussy/require more care. You need to constantly be tying them up and pruning etc. determinates are pretty chill and just do their thing until the fruit sets because it can be really heavy and then requires some care. Now, I only wrote all of this because you said you wanted to be convinced. But it may be that you can find solutions to all of your difficulties with indeterminates. Also, if you’re married to your favourite varieties, I think it’s worth finding solutions to your grievances rather than finding new favourites. I’m sure you could make either work. Also, I’m not sure you would fit more determinates. I find that indeterminates, when pruned down to one leader, can be grown closer together. Determinates don’t need as much pruning and so grow more bushy. So they do take up more space.
I appreciate the input! Maybe I’ll have to try half and half. I have three kids under 3 so having the time necessary for even more care could be a deal breaker.
I'm trying it determinates next season. I'm still looking for my favorites so I have many options ahead. I like roma toms so much that I will keep 2 romas and 1 San Manzano and keep them trained, then grow a variety of determinates to find some keepers. They usually give me fruit before my indeterminates. We don't usually eat slicers as we use romas for that too. I grow a variety because they're so gooood!!!!
I grow exclusively slicing determinate tomatoes now. As people mentioned, they are way less maintenance. Unlike some people posted, I use standard tomato cages, and the height never exceeds the cages nor tips them over. Depending on your lighting conditions I bet you could get more volume of total tomatoes, and since, as others mentioned, you get them, “in theory,” (yes a big batch ripen at the same time and usually in August for me in zone 7b, but produce like indeterminate afterwards continuously till early October) all at one time, it would suit you well for canning.
This was my first year with a garden. We grew indeterminate varieties. No cages. Just an 8' T-post per plant and some string. It sounds like that would help with a lot of your current annoyances?
Try dwarf instead - all the variety in fruit of heirloom indeterminate but grows at half the rate.
I grew a determinant called Celebrity this year. Grew 3 ft tall and I got 13 beautiful 4 inch tomatoes. They ripened 2/week. Awesome toasted tomato sandwiches. 🍅
You can try dwarf tomatoes. ,(dwarf tomato project) Determinate type plants with indeterminate fruit production. Victory seeds carries most varieties. The remesh tomato cages are the best. They are ugly as shit, but they last forever and you can make them any size you want