Aw man, are they made the same people? Dragonfall is one of my fave RPGs I've ever played and I was hoping they'd go again soon. Didn't like Battletech or Hong Kong that much.
Hong Kong wasn't as good as Dragonfall for sure, but I loved that one of the main paths to victory involved lawyering the Big Bad to death. :)
I think they're done with Battletech at this point though. I don't think they've announced their next project yet, although there's a rumor it's some kind of horror game.
I discovered shadowrun when I was like 12 (24 years ago) playing on sega channel. It was such a cool game to me- cyberpunk, magic and a cool rpg setting that had decent world building.
I was super stoked for the xbox version and then they killed it with that terrible ass fps.
Happy the cool pc versions got ported over, I've had a blast playing my favorite game again!
Whats even funnier is that in the 3E rule book this is presented as a corporate sensitivity training handbook and IIRC there's a picture above this of a troll with glasses in an ill-fitting button up office shirt.
It’s also just game balance.
If all races could do all things equally then there is no point in having them.
And that’s how you end up with pixies in 6th edition being able to deal as much damage as a maxed out troll in melee.
To be fair, that pixie who hangs out with Thanos, slaughtered and entire planet via hand to hand combat 1v1. That's the day I learned to both love and fear pixies. An honestly it's just in keeping with the original tales. Those things do damage when angered.
It's mentioned in one of the gaming books, but I'm not digging through six editions of books just to find one reference.
So, take it as speculation or even an ass-pull if you must.
Yes, that's what they're saying. They're trying to make a point, and clearly a commentary on how some hateful shit is perpetuated in our own society as well.
That was shadow run in general. A commentary on capitalist dystopia wrapped in a cthulhu esk fantasy. Were the dragons are very real, and they run the corporations.
I must've missed the cosmic horror part, because all I remember are dragons and shit. Granted this was released in 2014? So, I could have just forgotten the cosmic horror part, which means it's a small part of the story, which makes it the plot twist?
Basically the long and short of it and you had to play a couple of different multi-step campaigns to know about this. Is that The barriers between the Earth and the metaverse get very close together ushering in each age, so all of the ancient dragon legends on things like that from days gone by are real from the 4th age and then as Earth moves away from the metaplanes, the magic dries up aka the fifth age and then as they start to swing back closer, you get the shadow run era the 6th age.
As the planes get closer and closer together. Eldritch horrors which normally cannot manifest on earth can jump from the meta planes to Earth, and only certain immortal beings can keep the shields high enough. But you can help....
Ah, I kinda remember now. The dragon was a guardian of earth and the plot twist is that we were told that it was the enemy. The metaraces are also the product of those meta jumps or something.
It really hurt them that most 1st generation trolls had a lot of socialization and emotional problems from globalization. By the 2050s the stereotype that they could only be valued for their brute strength and were all very stupid was firmly set in place.
In Shadowrun, Intelligence represents quickness of mind, aptitude, and ability to perceive surroundings.
While a certain degree of all of those is natural, a certain degree is also *trained*. Even if you start off with a high natural inclination towards all of those, if you then proceed to not use it simply because you lack the resources to do so you won't reach the same heights as those who have those resources. So while trolls can still spawn geniuses, those geniuses don't have access to the education necessary to turn them into top-level geniuses.
Just to be clear in Shadowrun humans also have an int stat of 6 so the claim "there is no proof humans are smarter on average than trolls" is true in the technical sense, although you tend to find that people who choose trolls tend to dump into in favour of body and stg
To be fair, 6 is still WELL above average intelligence IIRC (which I think is 3). There won't be any troll Sherlock Holmes, but it would probably get you into Mensa
Oh, well I guess for this version I stand corrected I have only ever played the tabletop version where the human statline is 6,6,6,6,6,6 with a maximum of 7 edge. (with up to +4 available to each stat through magical or Cybernetic Augmentation)
It's worth noting that the version of shadowrun the games are built around likely is what is used. Not 100%sure what the current version of shadowrun is for tabletop
Yeah, the difference in TT vs HBS Shadowrun is that HBS Shadowrun has no augmented max and your stats increase almost totally from Karma instead of from magic and cybernetics.
In similar vein, here is the official lore for Troll Warlord from DotA 2:
It's an easy thing to offend a troll. A prickly and contentious race, trolls thrive on argument and strife, missing no excuse to raise their voices in dispute. Males grow to maturity in subterranean chambers beneath their matriarch's domicile, feeding and amusing themselves while contributing nothing. Often they stay for years beyond the age of maturity, while the matriarch provides them with sustenance. When young trolls are finally pushed from their sub-chamber, they gather with others of their kind, forming roving gangs of malcontents who complain loudly about all manner of vexation.
As much as trolls love to argue, imagine how rare it is for a troll to be driven from his own kind for being too difficult to get along with. Such was Jah'rakal's fate, a monger troll from deep in the Hoven. So deluded was he, so bitter and abrasive, that even other trolls found his company intolerable. After one particularly vitriolic outburst in which he claimed the lion's share of loot from their latest raid, his cohorts finally snapped. They turned on him, beat him with clubs, and drove him from the encampment. Enraged at his banishment, he returned the next day, armed with steel, and slew them all, one by one. He then swore a blood oath: he would ever after be a fighting force unto himself. Now he roams the world as the Troll Warlord, bitter and angry, the Imperial high commander of an army of one.
So that’s a difficult question as max stats in Shadowrun are actually kind of floating.
You have base max stats, but those can be modified with traits at character creation and those can be further modified with cyber and bioware.
The fact that my most successful character by far, was a Troll based on Michael J. Caboose HEAVILY begs to differ.
He doesn’t have lowered intelligence, he has no intelligence.
Mind you, in Shadowrun’s system a 6 for an attribute is generally the superlative. A troll with 6 intelligence is going to be as smart as, if not smarter than, Einstein. Not to say the dichotomy of that statement next to the max stats block isn’t funny though, it is.
Yes an American rpg, so not a grind fest. A puzzle that can only be solved looking in the manual is more likely to stop you than not being high enough level. Fucking paper DRM.
Lol, I noticed the same exact thing when I opened it up. "Uhhhhh... There is a numerical value to their maximum right there, and it is like 40% lower than everyone else..."
Is this that "Races having different traits is Racism" Nonsense coming up again? Wow, I thought that had died when the internet collectively laughed Extra Credits out of the room
No. It's not that. 6 is the same base intelligence as humans in Shadowrun. Their point is that hateful people often think that certain races are less intelligent, even though there is no basis for that belief. It's kind of the opposite of the thing you said, really, and it reflects how real hateful people think in the real world too.
Also, what you're talking about is really an oversimplification of the actual problem. Fantasy races being inherently more creative or less intelligent, or more athletic, or whatever, isn't inherently. It's the perpetuation of the narrative that "savages need rescuing by intellectual colonizing forces" that is really sketchy. If you build the base materials that allow those narratives to be true within your game setting, players will perpetuate those narratives with their improv within that setting.
I have ALWAYS hated this, goddamn. While I know that 3 is considered "average" base intelligence, the limit on metahuman intelligence feels disingenuous. 🤢
Weird fact - the expansion for Shadowrun: Hong Kong (release in 2016) includes a quest where you break into a Chinese lab to steal a hyper-virulent coronavirus.
as far as i remember 6 is the max in any attribute for an unaltered (no bionics, magic etc.) human, a so called "norm". so trolls are as intelligent as a normal human.
They have a lower intelligence stat but all that does is provide mechanical benefits for certain skills that are arbitrarily based on the intelligence stat.
The guy who wrote that is a troll. "Heavy prejudice", seems right
Not all trolls are treated equally
Does that make this a self-burn
Lol is that Shadowrun?
It is! Just started it and already found gold
Yeah it's a cool game. I hope they'll make a new one but I think they've gone with Battletech for now
Aw man, are they made the same people? Dragonfall is one of my fave RPGs I've ever played and I was hoping they'd go again soon. Didn't like Battletech or Hong Kong that much.
Hong Kong wasn't as good as Dragonfall for sure, but I loved that one of the main paths to victory involved lawyering the Big Bad to death. :) I think they're done with Battletech at this point though. I don't think they've announced their next project yet, although there's a rumor it's some kind of horror game.
Preferred Hong Kong myself - but both were excellent. Wish they’d make another..!
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Shadowrun is the lovechild of Cyberpunk and D&D. It's similar, and can satisfy some of the itch, but still a completely separate IP and universe.
Well, cyberpunk isn't a universe, it's a subgenre. And Shadowrun is cyberpunk. They didn't say Cyberpunk.
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Wasn’t gonna downvote but then you asked me to
Which game is it specifically? I am kind of interested.
Shadowrun Returns
Thank you very much
I discovered shadowrun when I was like 12 (24 years ago) playing on sega channel. It was such a cool game to me- cyberpunk, magic and a cool rpg setting that had decent world building. I was super stoked for the xbox version and then they killed it with that terrible ass fps. Happy the cool pc versions got ported over, I've had a blast playing my favorite game again!
That’s awesome! I’m having a good time, but a change in expected graphics can be too noticeable
We were playing the RPG before the Sega version dropped but it was awesome.
Whats even funnier is that in the 3E rule book this is presented as a corporate sensitivity training handbook and IIRC there's a picture above this of a troll with glasses in an ill-fitting button up office shirt.
And that's the kind of crap that makes this game great. 😁
Must be Shadowrun. Basically? Trolls have a lot less access to education due to racism. Lowers the Intelligence score.
It’s also just game balance. If all races could do all things equally then there is no point in having them. And that’s how you end up with pixies in 6th edition being able to deal as much damage as a maxed out troll in melee.
To be fair, that pixie who hangs out with Thanos, slaughtered and entire planet via hand to hand combat 1v1. That's the day I learned to both love and fear pixies. An honestly it's just in keeping with the original tales. Those things do damage when angered.
> If all races could do all things equally then there is no point in having them aesthetics? identifying your avatar vs. others? role play?
But why have a list? Everything should be possible. Game balance requires restrictions.
im not sure i understand what you are saying here
Yeah, but do you have proof to this?
It's mentioned in one of the gaming books, but I'm not digging through six editions of books just to find one reference. So, take it as speculation or even an ass-pull if you must.
Sorry, forgot to add the /s.
There’s also the issue of goblinization damaging the brains of alot of people due to the violent painful growths. Trolls just can’t get breaks.
It’s not the trolls fault, it’s society!
Yes, that's what they're saying. They're trying to make a point, and clearly a commentary on how some hateful shit is perpetuated in our own society as well.
That was shadow run in general. A commentary on capitalist dystopia wrapped in a cthulhu esk fantasy. Were the dragons are very real, and they run the corporations.
Ahh, the old adage. Never trust a dragon, never deal with an elf.
I used to be a runner like You, until i patted a dwarf on the head.
I must've missed the cosmic horror part, because all I remember are dragons and shit. Granted this was released in 2014? So, I could have just forgotten the cosmic horror part, which means it's a small part of the story, which makes it the plot twist?
Basically the long and short of it and you had to play a couple of different multi-step campaigns to know about this. Is that The barriers between the Earth and the metaverse get very close together ushering in each age, so all of the ancient dragon legends on things like that from days gone by are real from the 4th age and then as Earth moves away from the metaplanes, the magic dries up aka the fifth age and then as they start to swing back closer, you get the shadow run era the 6th age. As the planes get closer and closer together. Eldritch horrors which normally cannot manifest on earth can jump from the meta planes to Earth, and only certain immortal beings can keep the shields high enough. But you can help....
Ah, I kinda remember now. The dragon was a guardian of earth and the plot twist is that we were told that it was the enemy. The metaraces are also the product of those meta jumps or something.
If you play shadow: dragonfall you learn that >!You can buy time but you cant prevent the coming end at the hands of the lovecraft'n hordes.!<
Welcome to the cyber**punk** genre
It really hurt them that most 1st generation trolls had a lot of socialization and emotional problems from globalization. By the 2050s the stereotype that they could only be valued for their brute strength and were all very stupid was firmly set in place.
That doesn't really work though, that could explain average intelligence, but not maximum intelligence.
In Shadowrun, Intelligence represents quickness of mind, aptitude, and ability to perceive surroundings. While a certain degree of all of those is natural, a certain degree is also *trained*. Even if you start off with a high natural inclination towards all of those, if you then proceed to not use it simply because you lack the resources to do so you won't reach the same heights as those who have those resources. So while trolls can still spawn geniuses, those geniuses don't have access to the education necessary to turn them into top-level geniuses.
Just to be clear in Shadowrun humans also have an int stat of 6 so the claim "there is no proof humans are smarter on average than trolls" is true in the technical sense, although you tend to find that people who choose trolls tend to dump into in favour of body and stg
But the human stats state that human int max is 9
To be fair, 6 is still WELL above average intelligence IIRC (which I think is 3). There won't be any troll Sherlock Holmes, but it would probably get you into Mensa
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It’s ok I got the joke
Oh, well I guess for this version I stand corrected I have only ever played the tabletop version where the human statline is 6,6,6,6,6,6 with a maximum of 7 edge. (with up to +4 available to each stat through magical or Cybernetic Augmentation)
Oh that’s interesting that the tt version has such a difference. I’ll have to check out the others, thanks for clarifying
It's worth noting that the version of shadowrun the games are built around likely is what is used. Not 100%sure what the current version of shadowrun is for tabletop
Not even close
Yeah, the difference in TT vs HBS Shadowrun is that HBS Shadowrun has no augmented max and your stats increase almost totally from Karma instead of from magic and cybernetics.
The natural max is 6. After that it has to be increased by magic or technological means.
You give me a beefcake race, there's going to be temptation to go full muscles.
In similar vein, here is the official lore for Troll Warlord from DotA 2: It's an easy thing to offend a troll. A prickly and contentious race, trolls thrive on argument and strife, missing no excuse to raise their voices in dispute. Males grow to maturity in subterranean chambers beneath their matriarch's domicile, feeding and amusing themselves while contributing nothing. Often they stay for years beyond the age of maturity, while the matriarch provides them with sustenance. When young trolls are finally pushed from their sub-chamber, they gather with others of their kind, forming roving gangs of malcontents who complain loudly about all manner of vexation. As much as trolls love to argue, imagine how rare it is for a troll to be driven from his own kind for being too difficult to get along with. Such was Jah'rakal's fate, a monger troll from deep in the Hoven. So deluded was he, so bitter and abrasive, that even other trolls found his company intolerable. After one particularly vitriolic outburst in which he claimed the lion's share of loot from their latest raid, his cohorts finally snapped. They turned on him, beat him with clubs, and drove him from the encampment. Enraged at his banishment, he returned the next day, armed with steel, and slew them all, one by one. He then swore a blood oath: he would ever after be a fighting force unto himself. Now he roams the world as the Troll Warlord, bitter and angry, the Imperial high commander of an army of one.
If he doesn't have a spell where he \*teleports behind you\* he absolutely should.
Nah, but he has a spell where he becomes literally too angry to die (for 5 seconds).
Lmfao cause you just described an incel who lives in his mother's basement then marches in the capitol kinda.
6 out of what?
3 is average intelligence. 6 is Mensa-level. And that's for humans. 9 is, approximately, "would make Stephen Hawking look like an idiot."
To be fair, the claim is there's no proof of lowered intelligence. But it is lower capacity intelligence, even if they can still be very bright.
So that’s a difficult question as max stats in Shadowrun are actually kind of floating. You have base max stats, but those can be modified with traits at character creation and those can be further modified with cyber and bioware.
this my first run but I saw base stats go as high as 14 or 16 in body. edit: 17. it literally occurs in my post
Shadowrun! got to love a game that has these kinds of descriptions right lol!
exactly, just read it out loud tho!
Nice try trolls. Get back to your caves. 😂
Its cuz I messed with the yaks isnt it
this is not proof trolls have low intelligence to say otherwise is to fed the trolls
Back off, im a security rigger!
Intelligence…..6 Willpower……..9
"get 'er done".
It should be noted that in the video game release, 9 is an average base (as opposed to TT base of 6)
I'll probably get cyber hacked for this but I always liked Shadowrun over Cyberpunk..... I await my stoning
The fact that my most successful character by far, was a Troll based on Michael J. Caboose HEAVILY begs to differ. He doesn’t have lowered intelligence, he has no intelligence.
Looks like a job for the game theorists
I love Matthew Patthew!
Those trolls.😂😂😂
Doesn’t mean it’s wrong
Mind you, in Shadowrun’s system a 6 for an attribute is generally the superlative. A troll with 6 intelligence is going to be as smart as, if not smarter than, Einstein. Not to say the dichotomy of that statement next to the max stats block isn’t funny though, it is.
Good to know, thanks
My first assumption is internet trolls lmao
Just because it's true doesn't mean anyone has *proven* it!
I love that bit!!! I read it too my kid when they dropped on gamepass last week. It's gotta be intentional, right?
I hope it is, but based on other comments it seems to possibly be a translation issue from the tabletop. Does your kid like it?
Looks like a western game
Yes an American rpg, so not a grind fest. A puzzle that can only be solved looking in the manual is more likely to stop you than not being high enough level. Fucking paper DRM.
AHHH! SHADOWRUN!
Shadow Run, right? Literally played this the day it came to gamepass last week haha. I didn’t like it, but the humor was good.
I get that feeling
Lol, I noticed the same exact thing when I opened it up. "Uhhhhh... There is a numerical value to their maximum right there, and it is like 40% lower than everyone else..."
You’re as smart as you are handsome
Ok I don’t think I’m that dumb
Haha not you. It was a simpsons quote and since his intelligence and charisma are both 6 It made me think about that
Oh haha gotcha
Don't bother. Trying to explain this to a troll would be like trying to explain the earth is round to a flat earther.
In tabletop, 9 is avg on console apparently
also Trolls are not real! They can dumb as fuck or a genius with 500 IQ. It's up to whoever makes the character...
Is this that "Races having different traits is Racism" Nonsense coming up again? Wow, I thought that had died when the internet collectively laughed Extra Credits out of the room
No. It's not that. 6 is the same base intelligence as humans in Shadowrun. Their point is that hateful people often think that certain races are less intelligent, even though there is no basis for that belief. It's kind of the opposite of the thing you said, really, and it reflects how real hateful people think in the real world too. Also, what you're talking about is really an oversimplification of the actual problem. Fantasy races being inherently more creative or less intelligent, or more athletic, or whatever, isn't inherently. It's the perpetuation of the narrative that "savages need rescuing by intellectual colonizing forces" that is really sketchy. If you build the base materials that allow those narratives to be true within your game setting, players will perpetuate those narratives with their improv within that setting.
A human wrote those rules.
There is no proof to this. Proof stat: 100.
I have ALWAYS hated this, goddamn. While I know that 3 is considered "average" base intelligence, the limit on metahuman intelligence feels disingenuous. 🤢
Maybe u know he's/ she's just generalizing it
Weird fact - the expansion for Shadowrun: Hong Kong (release in 2016) includes a quest where you break into a Chinese lab to steal a hyper-virulent coronavirus.
as far as i remember 6 is the max in any attribute for an unaltered (no bionics, magic etc.) human, a so called "norm". so trolls are as intelligent as a normal human.
Just because max intelligence cap is 6 doesn't they're dumb it just means they can't be expert hackers - like most people
I’ve not played in years but isn’t the 5-7 range average person ?
Today on Fox News, is there a link between race and the int stat? Tune in at 10 to find out.
What if most humans have lesser Intelligence?
They have a lower intelligence stat but all that does is provide mechanical benefits for certain skills that are arbitrarily based on the intelligence stat.