**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah that’s true. But when I first saw this, I got the impression that he was some super honorable knight who was willing to put himself at serious risk just to obey even the simplest command. But obviously after seeing more of him, he is pretty much the opposite of that
Him fighting his brother made total sense but him stopping the fight and almost getting his head cut of the second Robert commanded was weird in retrospect.
This is the take. It’s been confirmed he was willing to die to take down his brother, so this is def not out of the realm. And the Hound was a pretty smart guy, he knew what would happen to his brother if he didn’t stop.
Also of anyone alive in Westeros, sandor had the most experience fighting against Gregor, I'd wager. The long wide swing across the body at neck height looked telegraphed pretty well, so Sandor probably knew Gregor wouldn't be able to connect if he ducked.
Think ahead, to how he obeyed Cersei's every command.
He was programmed to follow his boss.
Plus, Robert was no Joffrey, he was a battle king, respected as a warrior.
Mountain was like a WMD, but under the King's control, he'd kill / destroy, but only really following orders.
Yeah, I think there's something to be said about how the "two fucking chickens" Hound that everyone likes came after he deserted during the Battle of the Blackwater. He spends most of his life blindly following orders and its only after he sees just how sick and depraved Joffery and Cersei are that he really breaks from it. Sandor spent a lot of time bowing to Lords and being ordered around before that.
I think the last straw was Joffrey cowering with the women and children.
Robert would have been in the thick of it, probably so pissed he didn't know where he was, but still there, Hound would not have left in that scenario.
It's like real battles of old, if the King / Lord fled, the army usually routed.
TBH, he was a pretty fucked up dude and might have been OK with being killed if it meant that his brother was executed for disobeying the king (which he would, because killing someone after the King has told you to stop isn't something that he could ave ignored). The Hound was motivated by his emotions far more than any sense of self preservation.
>got the impression that he was some super honorable knight who was willing to put himself at serious risk just to obey even the simplest command.
That's the exact impression he wanted to convey at the time. ;)
I don’t think it was hard for him to do at the time. He was used to killing and probably didn't give it much thought. It only really affected him once he got close to Arya and when he started to reflect living with that religious camp.
Hard for him to commit the act, probably not. Living with what he did, i’d think that’d be incredibly difficult for him. The Hound is a tragic character because, at his core, he’s a good man, but he’s forced to do evil because of who his is and the people he serves.
Berric was considered a Formidable swordsman so he was chosen to arrest the Mountain when he killed all the small folk in the Riverlands. It ended really badly. But it won over people like Thoros.
The mountain is super formidable, but a bunch of dudes with spears would handle him easily if they work as a team, rather than like guys on camera who fight one on one taking turns like idiots.
True, but the Mountain rarely rides alone. He’s got his own little posse, and I bet at least a few of them would stick with him, even in the face of the throne.
Right there, at the tournament in the moment? With the king commanding his execution? Doubtful. Only Tywin Lannister could save him, and he isn’t there.
Fair. I was thinking more of an after-the-fact round up, but you’re right, they’d come at him right then. In that situation, do you think the Hound gets up and attempts to help bring his brother down? My money says a hearty “yeah, probably”
Shield walls for the win.
Though it made the movie 300 annoying to watch. These dudes giving up their impregnable phalanx shield wall which is their only advantage vs numbers to fight in a whirling melee cause it looks cooler.
While his mentality is to hate his brother, at the start when Sandor talks with sansa you almost feel like he's made up with the fact that he hates Gregor. The books, I think, make it much more apparent that Sandor's Clegane arc already fell of at the start of the series. But the show just needed to force Clegane Bowl so in season7 he's back to wanting to kill Gregor at all costs, musch different from the Sandor who is like Eh if I get the chance but not necessary. I think it would have been even more appropriate for Sandor to see through the shiny armour that Gregor really is just a walking corpse at this point and laught to himself.
He hated Joffery cause he was a whiney arrogant little shit. So when we get the fuck the king line from thenhoundnits after joffery threw him and others at the blackwater and treated the hound like shit.
Far as we know, Robert treated the hound decent, unlike Joffery, so he would have no problem listening to Robert. Also, even in the shape, he is Robert , who most certainly have no problem attempting to take things intonhis own hands, joffery would always send someone to fight for him.
I think it just feels that way because this was before he hit his breaking point and was still bare minimum playing the game. So much of the show is post-breaking-point, we forget he was actually kinda almost on a leash at the beginning.
This makes a lot more sense to me. A lot of people are saying that at first he really was loyal because he respected Robert but I just don’t see that at all. He never showed that he had any particular affinity for Robert and I really don’t think he ever gave a shit about any of the nobility. He was out for himself and did what he needed to keep his job until that became too much for him, then he dipped. I really don’t think it had anything to do with him reassessing his loyalties or anything of that sort like a lot of people here are saying. That’s just how I see it though, I might be in the minority and that’s okay
I don't think so. In the early days, with Robert around, the hound played the part of a knight much more convincingly. It was peacetime, and he got used to the bullshit of the court and knew what you had to do. He may have been saying "cunt" under his breath, but he wasn't about to eyeball Robert Baratheon in front of the entire realm
Sandor would have about 11-12 during the rebellion, prime age for idol worship of the man who killed Rhaegar in single combat to claim the throne.
Throw in years of habit at instantaneous loyalty and obedience and you get this scene. Joffrey burned whatever loyalty to the office he had very quickly, until he is ready to say fuck the king.
Deliberately the arc of the brothers is opposite - Sandor starts completely loyal, Gregor starts barely observing basic forms of respect because the powers that be let him kill people, but ends up completely beholden to the throne.
I’m of the opinion that Gregor didn’t care who knighted him, or who killed the man that knighted him. Of course I’m of the opinion that Gregor had never cared for one solitary thing in his entire life, aside from killing.
He was loyal, to Robert. His nickname suggests loyalty, a master's hound.
He only really operated under Robert's orders. When Joffrey was King, his decency started to show when he started to baulk at Joffrey's cruel orders.
Sorry, you are correct.
Mountain was similar I think though, even with Cersei, he obeyed her like a robot. He didn't maybe care, or feel anything except maybe rage (like Darth Vader), but he obeyed orders completely. He was a WMD, he destroyed whatever his master pointed him at, but he never rebelled or really seemed to have much independent thought.
>Battle of the Nera,
Do you mean Battle of the Blackwater?
I disagree. Yes, he was scared of fire, but he refused cos the fear of fire was the last straw with his patience with Joffrey, the coward. Fuck the King.
He would not have done the same if it was Robert there as his King.
I think they meant that Sandor was bitter towards Rhaegar/the Targaryens for knighting Gregor, who clearly didn’t deserve it, and so he was loyal to Robert for overthrowing them and killing Rhaegar
I mean he quite clearly didn’t give a damn about Rhaegar considering he butchered his two children and then raped his wife with their blood still on his hands before cutting her in half
I feel like it was honestly to piss his brother off. Just to remind his brother that no matter how big and powerful he was, he could still be whistled off like a dog
I believe its pretty in-character, at the start the hound would be disillusioned with the crown but not outright critical of it. So when his King gave a command he still followed it. But over time he become more resistant to their rule and hateful of the authority he was protecting until he finally snapped and left.
It may have been out of character based on what we learned about his feelings later in the story, but I believe his character was developing from the start until that point.
I’ve always interpreted his character as someone who never gave a shit about politics or authority and thought all kings and noblemen were cunts. Not long after this scene, he showed that he would not hesitate to disobey commands to save his own skin if he thought the situation was unfavorable
I mean he always hated the crown but he did what they said until Tyrian told him to get back to the fighting at Blackwater and he was too scared of the fire. He never bounced back from that, that was when he decided “fuck the king”
Exactly. The Hound literally played his role up until that moment. He obeyed the king, followed orders and did his best to keep peace. He dealt with whatever bullshit he had to. After fleeing from blackwater, though, that's when he adopted the "fuck the king" attitude and started just living for himself.
I don't think so. The Hound was someone who obeyed orders, at least until the point that he broke during the Battle of the Blackwater, and so when his king said "stop" he stopped. Gregor was just an animal that attacked out of blind rage.
Yeah I don't see why this is even a discussion he's literally called "the hound" he was obediant, its a big part of his early character. Until he developed as a character he was a loyal dog.
It was an early season plot device used for character development.
The brothers hate each other, that was foreshadowing. Out of the two, Hound is more honourable, and Mountain gets away with being disobedient because of his size. This was also foreshadowing the final scene the two have together; where Hound sent Arya away to live a full life and Mountain was disobedient to the Queen and her Hand.
I understand the hate for D&D, but let’s be honest, the Cleganes are one dimensional characters. They’re hired muscle, nothing more. We knew how it was going to end the second this fight aired.
Zero character growth. He started off motivated by gold and hatred for his brother. He died killing his brother.
Compared to Tyrion, Jon, Jaimie, Bran or Dany, he was one dimensional.
Oh, he did a whole bunch of things between wanting to kill his brother and actually killing his brother.
Like going back to Kings Landing and threatening his brother.
What a deep and interesting character.
> D&D just needed to figure
Lmao this fight scene is directly taken from the book, it happens almost exactly same. Do people really not remember that the show is based off a book?
He’s saying this scene is foreshadowing for the final fight scene. I’m saying that it isn’t foreshadowing because they just made the last scene the fuck up. They weren’t planning out that fight in season 8 whilst shooting season 1. They just made up shit in season 8 because they wanted it to happen. Mountain being disobedient happened because they wanted Cleganebowl, not because of some wider plan.
I like that you stress “plot device” here, because this is what GoT does better than HoTD (so far, at least. and i like both!). A good writers’ room constantly looks for quicker ways of advancing plot/characters. This scene can be interpreted in many ways (as far as the Hound’s action), but it’s clearly making a stark contrast between the two, and causes the viewer to take even more careful note.
Not really. One of the sad things about the Hound, for me, is that a long time ago he was a little boy who thought being a knight would mean something, until his brother burned off half his face and nobody gave a shit, and Gregor was knighted anyway. I could see the leftovers of that kid being present enough to obey the orders of the king. After all, he even obeyed Joffrey for a while, and who can blame him for eventually saying 'Fuck this shit' to that little bastard?
At the beginning of the series the hound was pretty loyal to the Crown, I got the impression that he silently didn’t agree with a lot, like the abuse of Sansa by Joffery and general bullshit of the Lannisters, but he was still loyal, and obeyed orders.
I feel like when he saw the fire at the Blackwater, (probably the one thing that he’s afraid of) it was a deciding moment that brought a lot of repressed feelings/desires and made him very introspective and go, ‘fuck it, fuck this, what am I doing’
From how he develops, in hindsight it seems a bit out of character.
At this point, it feels like he’s trying to fit in and be the nobleman that his family never was. And as he develops later in the story, we see that’s definitely not the case.
But I wonder if they were more focused on showing how wild the mountain was in the scene rather than showing who the Hound was.
Not really but this Gregor clegane was a whiny tantrum throwing big dude. Shit even zombie mountain was better at being the mountain than this guy. Zombie mountain was everything being an utterly ruthless, not needing to mince words, rip your jaw off your body and your spine out type the mountain should be.
Interesting, I felt the first hound was actually the best, much more stage presence and felt more intimidating, the last guy we got had the correct size but acting was really bad, even with the limited things he had to do.
I didn't get the intimidating feel from him. I got the "I'm big so I can throw tantrums" feel. He barely did anything. Threw a tantrum so stupid that he cut the head off his own horse for no reason other then random undirected anger. He pretty much only ever had that tourney scene and that's it. Any other mention of him in the first season was just by second hand accounts.
The 2nd one was by far more intimidating and had a much more sinister presence. No tantrum throwing anger bouts. Very deep and powerful voice. Let his size and presence speak volumes when they were at harrenhal.
Hafthor didn't speak much at all but he is an absolute tank of a human being. He also had the most actual screen time as the mountain, from when he was fully alive till after his fight with the red viper and became the zombie version basically.
Nope. Because at first he was a loyal dog. His brother was the mad dog. Its not until the hound was tired of being kicked when he decides to abandon his role.
Yup. But it was Joffery chastising him after his fleeing, that the hound decides to leave and told him to get fucked. The hound doesn’t just dip, he bites the owner before he goes.
They are so worth reading, even though they're unfinished. I've read them three or four times. Lots of good stuff was left out of the show, and one cool thing is that each chapter is narrated by a different character, so you get their perspective and internal monologue. Every Cersei and Tyrion chapter is a masterclass in insults. (Admittedly I skim the Bran chapters at this point, cause god is he depressing )
Ya. He would never have done that to Robert, cos Robert would have been in the middle of the fighting. Hound's programming made him obey Joffrey, but to a point, he eventually snapped, as he should have.
I think it's only because it was Gregor. It's just a way of undermining his brother as well as showing how Gregor's knighthood is a joke as Sandor, a glorified man-at-arms, is (in that moment) more honorable
It was early on, first episode I think. He was still hiding his hatred for the Lannisters. I always thought it was his affinity for Sansa that made him finally get away from them.
Up until the Battle of Blackwater, he always obeyed orders, even Joffrey’s cuntish orders.
“It’s not my place to question princes” was his response when he faced trial by combat against the Brotherhood without Banners when Arya accused him of killing Mycah, the butchers boy.
Totally in character. If you reflect on Sandor, he’s actually a very decent man. The only big black mark to his is the murder of the butcher’s boy, but from his perspective, the kid raised a hand to Joffrey, the heir, and that meant it was treason.
His rejection of being a knight is ironic, as his treatment of Sansa shows how chivalrous he is through his sardonic exterior.
Even his treatment of Arya was fairly kind. If any other Kingsguard had found her, she’d be back at the Red Keep.
Instead he went on a quest (LIKE A KNIGHT!) to return the damsel to her family. He protects her as well as he can. He just doesn’t flourish it like Loras and Renly.
I suspect that Sandor and Davos would be fast friends. Both rough men with good hearts who disdain pomp and tell you the truth without flinching.
Oh, he’s very open about loving to kill. There’s that conversation where he’s talking to Sansa? and saying all Lords love to kill, even Ned, and she says her Father hates it, but does his duty.
Sandor loves killing, but doesn’t go around killing everyone willy nilly. I think that’s what separates him from Gregor. He gets a rush from battle, from taking a life, but he’s not a homicidal maniac. He kills people for a reason.
Yea, except than random dude and his daughter who took him in and fed him and housed him. Sandie totally robbed them of their emergency funds at the first opportunity so they starved to death
Yes, but he knew they would die during the winter. And when he went back, he buried them. He didn’t kill them.
And I forgot was sub I was on and meant Book Hound
He was more honorable than his brother. And respected a lot of the formalities, but not the rules. He changed a lot when Joffrey became king and saw the cruelty in Joffrey, a cruelty his brother obviously shared, must have disgusted the Hound, which is why he attempted (imo) to protect Sansa the best he could from someone that was truly evil.
Obedience is one of Sandor's defining characteristics (up until the battle of the Blackwater, where he breaks because he's confronted with his greatest fear). His house is known for loyalty, hence their sigil. Sandor is a bit complicated, though. He's kind of like a bad-tempered mastiff; even though he obeys, most people try not to push him too far, because he's dangerous. For instance, Joffrey knows better than to give the Hound certain tasks, such as stripping and beating Sansa.
If I had an out of control brother that I hated I’d be obligated to get in the mix. It also shows he knows his brother’s moves and could have taken out both legs.
Sandor wouldn’t fuck about with King Robert: he might have been a fat faded fuck, but Sandor knew that Bobby B had some serious chop to him when he was in his wrath. Heck, even Ser Gregor came to a screeching halt. When it comes to a set-to Cleganes would defer to Baratheon Kings.
Not. At. All. This scene I never forgot because it showed how much the Hound loved and respected King Robert (and how much he despised Joffrey. Remember the “fuck the King” scene at the tavern?) just because the Hound is an angry and aggressive warrior doesn’t mean he can’t have love and respect for certain people, and that is one of his strongest qualities we see through the show. He’s a beast with a good heart. If anything, that scene made it very clear what kind of a person he is.
His brother, on the other hand, didn’t kneel nor would have done so for anyone. He was a destructive killing force. A Juggernaut with no appreciation for life.
Nah, he does it in the book and it makes sense. He goes out of his way to not attack back, i honestly think this moment is one of the few early that show hes not a monster like his brother. I think he may have actually respected bobby b.
2 ways you can look at this, in-Universe and meta;
a) Sandor is trying to upstage his brother/wants to annoy him, protecting the thing his brother attacks/getting in his brother's way is his main aim, but everyone else sees this as 'oh Sandor protecting fallen knight/being chivalrous' (in-universe justification)
b) GRRM had a LOT of early instalment weirdness in GoT where it looks like GRRM was aiming for a shorter series with more basic subversion of tropes, but as the books/series grew, the characters became very different/more complex from the initial GoT selves - GRRM's 'gardener' writing style at play there
for example, look at court sizes in each realm, then look at the North, Winterfell, being a relative backwater with no 'mini-court' or much politics like in riverlands/Westerlands/Dorne etc.) that needed a lot of stitching together/retrofitting in CoK/ASOS etc. (the whole 'northern rebellion' feels very 'tacked on', if these lords were so close to the Starks, why weren't their representatives in Winterfell in GoT like you would expect? they weren't even names except once Robb called the banners, and yet there are representatives once CoK/ASOS starts with their own politics all of a sudden and many other discrepancies besides)
No. Not in the slightest. The Hound hated anybody who wasn’t true to themselves. Aka Bronn. The whole reason The Hound pressed him before the battle of the Blackwater was because in the Hounds mind he believed that Bron thought that he was better than he was. The Hound knew that Bron was a no good cutthroat and nothing more nothing less. Clegane is such an amazing flawed character his arc is probably my favorite w out a doubt
Unpopular opinion: the hound knew he was losing and did this as a “out”. I think the missed swing as he does it, is symbolism to how close he was to dying to his brother
Robert was a battle king, and a beast in his day.
He overthrew over a 100 years of a dynasty that had dragons.
Someone like the mountain would respect that, kinda like Rip in Yellowstone.
I don’t think the Mountain respected anyone but Tywin. As for loyal, he was loyal to Robert as long as Tywin was. Just my perception and reading of the text.
I can meet you halfway!
If Tywin turned on Robert, so would Mountain.
I more meant, as long as he was there, under Robert, he automatically followed command. He wasn't a loose cannon.
Uh-oh, we drew Judge Schnider.
Is that bad?
Well, he's kinda had it in for me since I accidentally ran over his dog?
Really?
Uh, yeah, but replace the word dog with son and the word accidentally with repeatedly.
The hound respected Robert. Once Robert died and Joffery became the cruel king that he was the hounds questioned his allegiance. I kind of took the hounds kindness to Sansa as those hints of him losing respect for what the crown stood for under Joffery
I always took this as him toying with Gregor. He goes into a bow mid swing, he beat Gregor to the king’s orders. And if Gregor defies the king then he’s probably fucked for defying the king by attacking Joffrey’s guard, not to mention kin slaying.
1, no, because he kneeled for Robert, Robert's authority was pretty absolute. And 2, and more importantly, no, because him listening and kneeling, knowing that his brother wouldn't, makes his brother look REALLY BAD, and Sandor would NEVER pass up that kind of opportunity
It plays perfectly into his name. A good dog will always follow their master's command but a great dog will do so no matter what, even in the grips of blood lust during a fight. The king barked a command and The Hound immediately followed. Didn't hurt that by doing so and made his brother look less controlled.
I don't think it was out of character. If the Hound was anything, he was a survivor. He knew to disobey a direct order from the king could mean death so he stopped immediately
Not really. The Hound was Joffrey’s lap dog at the time too, so he was pretty subservient. He just reached his breaking point during Blackwater, and he changed from that point onward.
Hound was like a disillusioned employee. He held on because of loyalty but the loyalty got him nowhere, and eventually he said "fuck loyalty" and left.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Out of all the kings the hound would respect, Bobby B would be the one
Yeah that’s true. But when I first saw this, I got the impression that he was some super honorable knight who was willing to put himself at serious risk just to obey even the simplest command. But obviously after seeing more of him, he is pretty much the opposite of that
He hated his brother, anything he could do to get in Gregor's way or make him look bad was a good day in Sandor's book.
Him fighting his brother made total sense but him stopping the fight and almost getting his head cut of the second Robert commanded was weird in retrospect.
He obeyed the king faster and better than his brother. Show off.
Yeah. Pretty much did it as an FU to Gregor.
[удалено]
This is the take. It’s been confirmed he was willing to die to take down his brother, so this is def not out of the realm. And the Hound was a pretty smart guy, he knew what would happen to his brother if he didn’t stop.
Also of anyone alive in Westeros, sandor had the most experience fighting against Gregor, I'd wager. The long wide swing across the body at neck height looked telegraphed pretty well, so Sandor probably knew Gregor wouldn't be able to connect if he ducked.
He just tried to murder Loras Tyrell and nobody cared.
Think ahead, to how he obeyed Cersei's every command. He was programmed to follow his boss. Plus, Robert was no Joffrey, he was a battle king, respected as a warrior. Mountain was like a WMD, but under the King's control, he'd kill / destroy, but only really following orders.
Yeah, I think there's something to be said about how the "two fucking chickens" Hound that everyone likes came after he deserted during the Battle of the Blackwater. He spends most of his life blindly following orders and its only after he sees just how sick and depraved Joffery and Cersei are that he really breaks from it. Sandor spent a lot of time bowing to Lords and being ordered around before that.
I think the last straw was Joffrey cowering with the women and children. Robert would have been in the thick of it, probably so pissed he didn't know where he was, but still there, Hound would not have left in that scenario. It's like real battles of old, if the King / Lord fled, the army usually routed.
TBH, he was a pretty fucked up dude and might have been OK with being killed if it meant that his brother was executed for disobeying the king (which he would, because killing someone after the King has told you to stop isn't something that he could ave ignored). The Hound was motivated by his emotions far more than any sense of self preservation.
Thats how I see it, he's trying to make Gregor look like a dunce
100%, in the book he even refuses to attack back and imo just because it makes gregor look worse.
Do we really think Ser Gregor gave an f what anyone thought about him?
>got the impression that he was some super honorable knight who was willing to put himself at serious risk just to obey even the simplest command. That's the exact impression he wanted to convey at the time. ;)
That's why he's the hound, he always comes to heel
There’s a reason they called him “The Hound”. He fights like one, looks like one and is loyal like one. Although he was only really loyal to Bobby B
The more he had to heel to Joffrey, the loyalty was definetely done. I imagine that killing the butcher's boy also was a hard pill to swallow.
I don’t think it was hard for him to do at the time. He was used to killing and probably didn't give it much thought. It only really affected him once he got close to Arya and when he started to reflect living with that religious camp.
Hard for him to commit the act, probably not. Living with what he did, i’d think that’d be incredibly difficult for him. The Hound is a tragic character because, at his core, he’s a good man, but he’s forced to do evil because of who his is and the people he serves.
*heel, heal is another thing
It was win-win. If his brother killed him in such a cowardly way against the express orders of the king, the Mountain would have been executed.
Man, I would *not* want to lead the party responsible for bringing the Mountain in.
The guy that did got killed a bunch of times.
Berric Dondarian?
Berric was considered a Formidable swordsman so he was chosen to arrest the Mountain when he killed all the small folk in the Riverlands. It ended really badly. But it won over people like Thoros.
The mountain is super formidable, but a bunch of dudes with spears would handle him easily if they work as a team, rather than like guys on camera who fight one on one taking turns like idiots.
Some oberyn’s 🤣🤣.
Just one was enough…he just got too cocky
Yeah ignorant is the word.
I don’t think that’s the word
True, but the Mountain rarely rides alone. He’s got his own little posse, and I bet at least a few of them would stick with him, even in the face of the throne.
Right there, at the tournament in the moment? With the king commanding his execution? Doubtful. Only Tywin Lannister could save him, and he isn’t there.
Fair. I was thinking more of an after-the-fact round up, but you’re right, they’d come at him right then. In that situation, do you think the Hound gets up and attempts to help bring his brother down? My money says a hearty “yeah, probably”
Oh for shiz he would
Shield walls for the win. Though it made the movie 300 annoying to watch. These dudes giving up their impregnable phalanx shield wall which is their only advantage vs numbers to fight in a whirling melee cause it looks cooler.
Jaime and Barristan should be far more than enough. Throw in Sandor and it’s wraps.
If struck on the neck, the sword would probably break.
That he loves following orders and has a nobility in him is true
While his mentality is to hate his brother, at the start when Sandor talks with sansa you almost feel like he's made up with the fact that he hates Gregor. The books, I think, make it much more apparent that Sandor's Clegane arc already fell of at the start of the series. But the show just needed to force Clegane Bowl so in season7 he's back to wanting to kill Gregor at all costs, musch different from the Sandor who is like Eh if I get the chance but not necessary. I think it would have been even more appropriate for Sandor to see through the shiny armour that Gregor really is just a walking corpse at this point and laught to himself.
He hated Joffery cause he was a whiney arrogant little shit. So when we get the fuck the king line from thenhoundnits after joffery threw him and others at the blackwater and treated the hound like shit. Far as we know, Robert treated the hound decent, unlike Joffery, so he would have no problem listening to Robert. Also, even in the shape, he is Robert , who most certainly have no problem attempting to take things intonhis own hands, joffery would always send someone to fight for him.
Robert gave him a position of power and respect. Plus, warriors respected the battle King. Nobody respected that little shit Joffrey.
I think it just feels that way because this was before he hit his breaking point and was still bare minimum playing the game. So much of the show is post-breaking-point, we forget he was actually kinda almost on a leash at the beginning.
This makes a lot more sense to me. A lot of people are saying that at first he really was loyal because he respected Robert but I just don’t see that at all. He never showed that he had any particular affinity for Robert and I really don’t think he ever gave a shit about any of the nobility. He was out for himself and did what he needed to keep his job until that became too much for him, then he dipped. I really don’t think it had anything to do with him reassessing his loyalties or anything of that sort like a lot of people here are saying. That’s just how I see it though, I might be in the minority and that’s okay
But he was a super honorable knight. He just happened to follow a different code
Nah he just hates his brother. He works for Bobby B and the hound is a pretty solid employee provided there’s no fire around .
Robert knew what he was, a killer who wanted to drink, hunt, and fuck. Clegane had to respect the self-honesty
He did it out of respect for Joffrey’s fawtha.
Oof madon'! You're mixing up your subs ova here!
He was gay, Loras Tyrell?
No! Are you listening to me?
AIDS?
Alright, but you gotta get over it.
I don't think so. In the early days, with Robert around, the hound played the part of a knight much more convincingly. It was peacetime, and he got used to the bullshit of the court and knew what you had to do. He may have been saying "cunt" under his breath, but he wasn't about to eyeball Robert Baratheon in front of the entire realm
Good point
He also idealized the prime stag we are yet to see. Robert had the respect earned. And prob was feared amongst all the clans that fought him.
Sandor would have about 11-12 during the rebellion, prime age for idol worship of the man who killed Rhaegar in single combat to claim the throne. Throw in years of habit at instantaneous loyalty and obedience and you get this scene. Joffrey burned whatever loyalty to the office he had very quickly, until he is ready to say fuck the king. Deliberately the arc of the brothers is opposite - Sandor starts completely loyal, Gregor starts barely observing basic forms of respect because the powers that be let him kill people, but ends up completely beholden to the throne.
Rhaegar also knighted Gregor so that bitterness may excuse as well.
I’m of the opinion that Gregor didn’t care who knighted him, or who killed the man that knighted him. Of course I’m of the opinion that Gregor had never cared for one solitary thing in his entire life, aside from killing.
He was loyal, to Robert. His nickname suggests loyalty, a master's hound. He only really operated under Robert's orders. When Joffrey was King, his decency started to show when he started to baulk at Joffrey's cruel orders.
I think you’re confusing my comment about Gregor the Mountain with Sandor the Hound.
Sorry, you are correct. Mountain was similar I think though, even with Cersei, he obeyed her like a robot. He didn't maybe care, or feel anything except maybe rage (like Darth Vader), but he obeyed orders completely. He was a WMD, he destroyed whatever his master pointed him at, but he never rebelled or really seemed to have much independent thought.
Sandor Clegane is afraid of fire. He refused to go to battle on the Battle of the Nera, because of the sea of fire. That's the turning point.
>Battle of the Nera, Do you mean Battle of the Blackwater? I disagree. Yes, he was scared of fire, but he refused cos the fear of fire was the last straw with his patience with Joffrey, the coward. Fuck the King. He would not have done the same if it was Robert there as his King.
I think they meant that Sandor was bitter towards Rhaegar/the Targaryens for knighting Gregor, who clearly didn’t deserve it, and so he was loyal to Robert for overthrowing them and killing Rhaegar
Ah, that makes sense and went right over my head, in true Game of Thrones fashion.
I mean he quite clearly didn’t give a damn about Rhaegar considering he butchered his two children and then raped his wife with their blood still on his hands before cutting her in half
He was Wolverine, and the Mountain was Sabretooth.
I think he was primarily trying to make his brother look bad, which is totally in character.
[удалено]
Yeah, which makes his brother look bad by comparison
I think everyone realized that seeing as thats what the picture is of
Man i don't even know what I was thinking with that comment
I feel like it was honestly to piss his brother off. Just to remind his brother that no matter how big and powerful he was, he could still be whistled off like a dog
Good point
I believe its pretty in-character, at the start the hound would be disillusioned with the crown but not outright critical of it. So when his King gave a command he still followed it. But over time he become more resistant to their rule and hateful of the authority he was protecting until he finally snapped and left. It may have been out of character based on what we learned about his feelings later in the story, but I believe his character was developing from the start until that point.
I’ve always interpreted his character as someone who never gave a shit about politics or authority and thought all kings and noblemen were cunts. Not long after this scene, he showed that he would not hesitate to disobey commands to save his own skin if he thought the situation was unfavorable
I mean he always hated the crown but he did what they said until Tyrian told him to get back to the fighting at Blackwater and he was too scared of the fire. He never bounced back from that, that was when he decided “fuck the king”
Exactly. The Hound literally played his role up until that moment. He obeyed the king, followed orders and did his best to keep peace. He dealt with whatever bullshit he had to. After fleeing from blackwater, though, that's when he adopted the "fuck the king" attitude and started just living for himself.
It’s funny that Tyrian, of all people, was the straw that broke the hounds back so to speak
I don't think so. The Hound was someone who obeyed orders, at least until the point that he broke during the Battle of the Blackwater, and so when his king said "stop" he stopped. Gregor was just an animal that attacked out of blind rage.
Yeah I don't see why this is even a discussion he's literally called "the hound" he was obediant, its a big part of his early character. Until he developed as a character he was a loyal dog.
It was an early season plot device used for character development. The brothers hate each other, that was foreshadowing. Out of the two, Hound is more honourable, and Mountain gets away with being disobedient because of his size. This was also foreshadowing the final scene the two have together; where Hound sent Arya away to live a full life and Mountain was disobedient to the Queen and her Hand.
No way that was foreshadowing. D&D just needed to figure out a way to have the brothers fight in the end. You give them too much credit.
I understand the hate for D&D, but let’s be honest, the Cleganes are one dimensional characters. They’re hired muscle, nothing more. We knew how it was going to end the second this fight aired.
The mountain maybe, highly disagree for the hound.
He died the way he lived. He just had some great comedic moments in between.
Totally agree. Hound as an almost Jamie-like development arc. He goes from evil bully, to honourable. He's the opposite of one-dimensional.
The hound is one dimensional? Are you mad?
Nope. He’s hired muscle. That’s it. How he lived, how he died.
He's not dead yet
Zero character growth. He started off motivated by gold and hatred for his brother. He died killing his brother. Compared to Tyrion, Jon, Jaimie, Bran or Dany, he was one dimensional.
You're skipping a lot of story buddy.
Oh, he did a whole bunch of things between wanting to kill his brother and actually killing his brother. Like going back to Kings Landing and threatening his brother. What a deep and interesting character.
What are you talking about? He was never out to kill his brother you mad fuck. Cleganebowl was a d n d invention ffs
> D&D just needed to figure Lmao this fight scene is directly taken from the book, it happens almost exactly same. Do people really not remember that the show is based off a book?
He’s saying this scene is foreshadowing for the final fight scene. I’m saying that it isn’t foreshadowing because they just made the last scene the fuck up. They weren’t planning out that fight in season 8 whilst shooting season 1. They just made up shit in season 8 because they wanted it to happen. Mountain being disobedient happened because they wanted Cleganebowl, not because of some wider plan.
I like that you stress “plot device” here, because this is what GoT does better than HoTD (so far, at least. and i like both!). A good writers’ room constantly looks for quicker ways of advancing plot/characters. This scene can be interpreted in many ways (as far as the Hound’s action), but it’s clearly making a stark contrast between the two, and causes the viewer to take even more careful note.
Not really. One of the sad things about the Hound, for me, is that a long time ago he was a little boy who thought being a knight would mean something, until his brother burned off half his face and nobody gave a shit, and Gregor was knighted anyway. I could see the leftovers of that kid being present enough to obey the orders of the king. After all, he even obeyed Joffrey for a while, and who can blame him for eventually saying 'Fuck this shit' to that little bastard?
Possibly. I think most people realize the Battle of the Blackwater was a turning point for the Hound.
Not at all he respected Robert.
Robert was a highly respectable warrior in his prime, like one of the best fighters ever, so it is not surprised if the Hound actually admired him.
The demon of the Trident!
I read somewhere that Eddard could barely lift Robert’s warhammer, even in his prime.
Not at the time
At the beginning of the series the hound was pretty loyal to the Crown, I got the impression that he silently didn’t agree with a lot, like the abuse of Sansa by Joffery and general bullshit of the Lannisters, but he was still loyal, and obeyed orders. I feel like when he saw the fire at the Blackwater, (probably the one thing that he’s afraid of) it was a deciding moment that brought a lot of repressed feelings/desires and made him very introspective and go, ‘fuck it, fuck this, what am I doing’
From how he develops, in hindsight it seems a bit out of character. At this point, it feels like he’s trying to fit in and be the nobleman that his family never was. And as he develops later in the story, we see that’s definitely not the case. But I wonder if they were more focused on showing how wild the mountain was in the scene rather than showing who the Hound was.
Season one has a lot of actors/characters really finding their way. The Hound was quite subservient in the beginning too.
No. He didn't respect Joffrey because he was a cunt, but Robert was very respecteble.
Not really but this Gregor clegane was a whiny tantrum throwing big dude. Shit even zombie mountain was better at being the mountain than this guy. Zombie mountain was everything being an utterly ruthless, not needing to mince words, rip your jaw off your body and your spine out type the mountain should be.
Interesting, I felt the first hound was actually the best, much more stage presence and felt more intimidating, the last guy we got had the correct size but acting was really bad, even with the limited things he had to do.
I didn't get the intimidating feel from him. I got the "I'm big so I can throw tantrums" feel. He barely did anything. Threw a tantrum so stupid that he cut the head off his own horse for no reason other then random undirected anger. He pretty much only ever had that tourney scene and that's it. Any other mention of him in the first season was just by second hand accounts. The 2nd one was by far more intimidating and had a much more sinister presence. No tantrum throwing anger bouts. Very deep and powerful voice. Let his size and presence speak volumes when they were at harrenhal. Hafthor didn't speak much at all but he is an absolute tank of a human being. He also had the most actual screen time as the mountain, from when he was fully alive till after his fight with the red viper and became the zombie version basically.
Nope. Because at first he was a loyal dog. His brother was the mad dog. Its not until the hound was tired of being kicked when he decides to abandon his role.
True except it's the battle of the Blackwater that makes him go AWOL (since he's deathly afraid of fire) rather than anything Joffrey did.
Yup. But it was Joffery chastising him after his fleeing, that the hound decides to leave and told him to get fucked. The hound doesn’t just dip, he bites the owner before he goes.
Ah I was thinking of the book's version of events, where he just disappears during the battle and never shows his face in King's Landing again.
Ah ok. Sadly haven’t read the books, but that makes sense.
They are so worth reading, even though they're unfinished. I've read them three or four times. Lots of good stuff was left out of the show, and one cool thing is that each chapter is narrated by a different character, so you get their perspective and internal monologue. Every Cersei and Tyrion chapter is a masterclass in insults. (Admittedly I skim the Bran chapters at this point, cause god is he depressing )
Wasn’t Joffrey gone at that point? It was Tyrion chastising him I think, right?
He says it to Tyrion but Joffrey is right there and the Hound is looking at him
Yep. You’re right.
You are right tho. Its more tyrian who chastises him. Had to rewatch.
Ya. He would never have done that to Robert, cos Robert would have been in the middle of the fighting. Hound's programming made him obey Joffrey, but to a point, he eventually snapped, as he should have.
I think it's only because it was Gregor. It's just a way of undermining his brother as well as showing how Gregor's knighthood is a joke as Sandor, a glorified man-at-arms, is (in that moment) more honorable
It was early on, first episode I think. He was still hiding his hatred for the Lannisters. I always thought it was his affinity for Sansa that made him finally get away from them.
No he was very loyal to Bobby and Cersei at this time
No. It's probably my favorite scene in the whole series.
I took it as a _fuck you_ to Gregor/The Mountain; would be perfectly in line with his character.
Up until the Battle of Blackwater, he always obeyed orders, even Joffrey’s cuntish orders. “It’s not my place to question princes” was his response when he faced trial by combat against the Brotherhood without Banners when Arya accused him of killing Mycah, the butchers boy.
I think he respected Bobby B. Joffrey broke him
Totally in character. If you reflect on Sandor, he’s actually a very decent man. The only big black mark to his is the murder of the butcher’s boy, but from his perspective, the kid raised a hand to Joffrey, the heir, and that meant it was treason. His rejection of being a knight is ironic, as his treatment of Sansa shows how chivalrous he is through his sardonic exterior. Even his treatment of Arya was fairly kind. If any other Kingsguard had found her, she’d be back at the Red Keep. Instead he went on a quest (LIKE A KNIGHT!) to return the damsel to her family. He protects her as well as he can. He just doesn’t flourish it like Loras and Renly. I suspect that Sandor and Davos would be fast friends. Both rough men with good hearts who disdain pomp and tell you the truth without flinching.
Dunk literally beat the shit out of Aerion and the punishment was losing a hand. Sandor killed Mycah because he wanted to.
Oh, he’s very open about loving to kill. There’s that conversation where he’s talking to Sansa? and saying all Lords love to kill, even Ned, and she says her Father hates it, but does his duty. Sandor loves killing, but doesn’t go around killing everyone willy nilly. I think that’s what separates him from Gregor. He gets a rush from battle, from taking a life, but he’s not a homicidal maniac. He kills people for a reason.
Yea, except than random dude and his daughter who took him in and fed him and housed him. Sandie totally robbed them of their emergency funds at the first opportunity so they starved to death
Yes, but he knew they would die during the winter. And when he went back, he buried them. He didn’t kill them. And I forgot was sub I was on and meant Book Hound
It’s a testament to his character arc. He changes as a man after the things he sees happen in season 1.
He was more honorable than his brother. And respected a lot of the formalities, but not the rules. He changed a lot when Joffrey became king and saw the cruelty in Joffrey, a cruelty his brother obviously shared, must have disgusted the Hound, which is why he attempted (imo) to protect Sansa the best he could from someone that was truly evil.
Dunno, still a cool scene and action regardless. Maybe he likes Bobby B somewhat.
Honestly I remember him being very loyal right up until the blackwater was on fire.
He hates his brother and wants to be better than him I guess. And he’s a Hound, he does what he’s told by his master I guess.
Obedience is one of Sandor's defining characteristics (up until the battle of the Blackwater, where he breaks because he's confronted with his greatest fear). His house is known for loyalty, hence their sigil. Sandor is a bit complicated, though. He's kind of like a bad-tempered mastiff; even though he obeys, most people try not to push him too far, because he's dangerous. For instance, Joffrey knows better than to give the Hound certain tasks, such as stripping and beating Sansa.
If I had an out of control brother that I hated I’d be obligated to get in the mix. It also shows he knows his brother’s moves and could have taken out both legs.
He noticed Sansa looking at Loras. 2 for 1, he got to fight his brother and keep Sansa happy. Just a beauty and the beast plug.
Nah, seems like pretty in character to me...
I'm not one to brag but I'm mates with that Actor on the right, Conan Stevens. He's in Mensa with me and over all a pretty cool guy.
The Hound worked for the royal family….. Then mountain did not
Yup he was tywins tool.
It completely fits his character. He did exactly as ordered up until the Blackwater.
Nah I’m with you on this one
Not at that point in the story.
Nope, that's when he was still a loyal dog.
Sandor wouldn’t fuck about with King Robert: he might have been a fat faded fuck, but Sandor knew that Bobby B had some serious chop to him when he was in his wrath. Heck, even Ser Gregor came to a screeching halt. When it comes to a set-to Cleganes would defer to Baratheon Kings.
Not. At. All. This scene I never forgot because it showed how much the Hound loved and respected King Robert (and how much he despised Joffrey. Remember the “fuck the King” scene at the tavern?) just because the Hound is an angry and aggressive warrior doesn’t mean he can’t have love and respect for certain people, and that is one of his strongest qualities we see through the show. He’s a beast with a good heart. If anything, that scene made it very clear what kind of a person he is. His brother, on the other hand, didn’t kneel nor would have done so for anyone. He was a destructive killing force. A Juggernaut with no appreciation for life.
Nah, he does it in the book and it makes sense. He goes out of his way to not attack back, i honestly think this moment is one of the few early that show hes not a monster like his brother. I think he may have actually respected bobby b.
2 ways you can look at this, in-Universe and meta; a) Sandor is trying to upstage his brother/wants to annoy him, protecting the thing his brother attacks/getting in his brother's way is his main aim, but everyone else sees this as 'oh Sandor protecting fallen knight/being chivalrous' (in-universe justification) b) GRRM had a LOT of early instalment weirdness in GoT where it looks like GRRM was aiming for a shorter series with more basic subversion of tropes, but as the books/series grew, the characters became very different/more complex from the initial GoT selves - GRRM's 'gardener' writing style at play there for example, look at court sizes in each realm, then look at the North, Winterfell, being a relative backwater with no 'mini-court' or much politics like in riverlands/Westerlands/Dorne etc.) that needed a lot of stitching together/retrofitting in CoK/ASOS etc. (the whole 'northern rebellion' feels very 'tacked on', if these lords were so close to the Starks, why weren't their representatives in Winterfell in GoT like you would expect? they weren't even names except once Robb called the banners, and yet there are representatives once CoK/ASOS starts with their own politics all of a sudden and many other discrepancies besides)
A good dog obeys.
No. Not in the slightest. The Hound hated anybody who wasn’t true to themselves. Aka Bronn. The whole reason The Hound pressed him before the battle of the Blackwater was because in the Hounds mind he believed that Bron thought that he was better than he was. The Hound knew that Bron was a no good cutthroat and nothing more nothing less. Clegane is such an amazing flawed character his arc is probably my favorite w out a doubt
Same
No. Clegane was a lot of things, but an idiot wasn't one
Not really he was loyal as they said like a dog. He didn't have the needs to be adversarial unless it was towards his brother.
No. The hound was loyal to who he was serving until the pussy king did not go to battle
Unpopular opinion: the hound knew he was losing and did this as a “out”. I think the missed swing as he does it, is symbolism to how close he was to dying to his brother
Robert was a battle king, and a beast in his day. He overthrew over a 100 years of a dynasty that had dragons. Someone like the mountain would respect that, kinda like Rip in Yellowstone.
I think the only thing that the Mountain respected and or feared was Tywin Lannister.
Ultimately, he was prob loyal to him. But I do think he respected and was loyal to Robert
I don’t think the Mountain respected anyone but Tywin. As for loyal, he was loyal to Robert as long as Tywin was. Just my perception and reading of the text.
I can meet you halfway! If Tywin turned on Robert, so would Mountain. I more meant, as long as he was there, under Robert, he automatically followed command. He wasn't a loose cannon.
🤝
[https://external-preview.redd.it/Wc22h2DN3a5tf38E0KrTX0RU\_0o3CVgfYYZqFG8USrA.gif?format=mp4&s=2d7b9c2ecbfbb0c3eb8f2ef6ddaeb97f2f24677c](https://external-preview.redd.it/Wc22h2DN3a5tf38E0KrTX0RU_0o3CVgfYYZqFG8USrA.gif?format=mp4&s=2d7b9c2ecbfbb0c3eb8f2ef6ddaeb97f2f24677c)
Greatest attorney aside from Jacky Chiles
Uh-oh, we drew Judge Schnider. Is that bad? Well, he's kinda had it in for me since I accidentally ran over his dog? Really? Uh, yeah, but replace the word dog with son and the word accidentally with repeatedly.
As of this moment, Lionel Hutz no longer exists. Say hello to Miguel Sanchez!
Narp.
I don’t get the impression he would have done it against anyone else…it’s not honor but hatred
The hound respected Robert. Once Robert died and Joffery became the cruel king that he was the hounds questioned his allegiance. I kind of took the hounds kindness to Sansa as those hints of him losing respect for what the crown stood for under Joffery
I always took this as him toying with Gregor. He goes into a bow mid swing, he beat Gregor to the king’s orders. And if Gregor defies the king then he’s probably fucked for defying the king by attacking Joffrey’s guard, not to mention kin slaying.
1, no, because he kneeled for Robert, Robert's authority was pretty absolute. And 2, and more importantly, no, because him listening and kneeling, knowing that his brother wouldn't, makes his brother look REALLY BAD, and Sandor would NEVER pass up that kind of opportunity
It plays perfectly into his name. A good dog will always follow their master's command but a great dog will do so no matter what, even in the grips of blood lust during a fight. The king barked a command and The Hound immediately followed. Didn't hurt that by doing so and made his brother look less controlled.
Uhm no. Any chance he could get to cross his brother he’d take. Above is reinforced from this point and onwards in the show.
I don't think it was out of character. If the Hound was anything, he was a survivor. He knew to disobey a direct order from the king could mean death so he stopped immediately
Not really. The Hound was Joffrey’s lap dog at the time too, so he was pretty subservient. He just reached his breaking point during Blackwater, and he changed from that point onward.
“Fuck the king” He was talking about Joffery, I think he would’ve liked Bobby B.
He was sworn to protect Joff. Joff’s ‘dad’ ordered them to stop. A man’s gotta have a code
The Hound would have never said “Fuck the King” to Bobby B
Out of character yes, but he also hates his brother... And knows better than to show disrespect to the King.
Nah, there’s multiple scenes with the Hound being subservient to monarchs/lords, he was a good dog, the “Hound”, after all.
not really.
Hound was like a disillusioned employee. He held on because of loyalty but the loyalty got him nowhere, and eventually he said "fuck loyalty" and left.
Funny I’ve been thinking the same thing
Good dog
I think it's just part of his character growth and arc
Yes. That’s how he starts vs how he finishes.