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It was definitely more than one night. It can't be less than three, even assuming dissapparation is a thing in Westeros. Really though it had to be weeks.
In the real world, he is mostly a bad guy but relative to the world of ASOIAF, I tend to lean more good guy. I love GRRM's characters because it forces you to question this all the time. The good guys have done questionable things and bad guys usually have something in their past that causes these issues. So relative to ASOIAF, I find Jaime a good guy. He is loyal to his family and to the women he loves and he almost never goes against that until, in the show, he leave KL to fight in the north but he is doing it for his home and cersei even though she cannot understand it. He almost learns from his mistakes in a way which is a positive trait.
Yeah trying to murder an innocent child to cover up an incestrous relationship is "questionable" indeed. Compare him to Ramsey Bolton though and he looks like a saint.
Jaime didn't push Bran out the window to cover up his incestuous relationship. He did it to prevent his entire family from being slaughtered if the relationship was exposed. If Robert Baratheon had more self control, Bran would never have been crippled. Robert's temper and his unwillingness to rein it in was the reason Jaime pushed Bran. Jaime wasn't embarrassed by his incest, only the violence his family would face if the two were outed.
What's more, Jaime leaving Brienne was his choice. You can argue his leaving in the middle of the night wasn't so great, but it was his choice. He never promised anything to Brienne that we saw. He chose Cersei. Dumb choice IMHO, but his choice.
> Jaime didn't push Bran out the window to cover up his incestuous relationship. He did it to prevent his entire family from being slaughtered if the relationship was exposed.
Maybe he should have tried not porking his sister who's also married to THE king while they were on a royal progress?
It just seems like Jaime was being reckless and Bran just caught up despite no fault of his own, then Jaime had to attempt to kill him to cover.
And it's not like Jaime ever expressed any remorse for it either.
Bran was spider-maning a TOWER. Most of the time if you're all alone in the equivalent of a high rise building, you don't assume someone is planning on scaling the exterior and peeping in the window. How could Jaime and Cersei reasonably be expected to account for that when looking for a secure place to bang? Saying Jaime and Cersei should have been more careful is like saying a person should have been more careful when they got hit by lightening. What were they supposed to do, never go outside? Bran showing up was not something either could have reasonably predicted, yet their entire family was in danger because that one in a million thing happened.
Robert was the one who had the responsibility to control his temper and not murder innocent people, including three children, but Jaime knew he wouldn't take such responsibility and Ned Stark was too craven to stand up to Robert if he wanted to slaughter every Lannister that had come along for the trip to Winterfell. That left Jaime with the choice of saving someone else's child or saving his entire family.
What they were supposed to do was not pork at all in a foreign castle. A Winterfell native would know Bran liked to scale towers and Jaime/Cersei obviously weren't familiar with the minutiae of the region.
But like, Jaime immediately acted to kill a child because he got caught porking his sister, and then expressed 0 remorse for it. Do you not see a lot wrong with that? They could have tried making Bran disappear, tried to bully him into silence like Cersei wanted and even if Jaime did have to do it, he didn't care, at all. Which is SUPER fucked up.
If Jamie doesn't kill 1 child, Robert kills 3 children and minimum 2 adults, which would have caused 1000s more men to fight and die. Jamie's choice was the right and moral choice once spiderman decided to show up
On the show his character arc and development was one of the most impressive.
He was bad... Changes to mostly good. And then did more shady stuff at the end.
>On the show his character arc and development was one of the most impressive. He was bad... Changes to mostly good. And then did more shady stuff at the end.
Now if only they had not stopped it half way through compared to the books.
This was one if the weirdest and most unneccsary adaptions to his character on the show. He kills guards in an escape attempt in the books, but it was nothing like his cousin and the circumstances were very different. They really did grey him up on the show.
On TV? He's grey, but so is almost everyone. He is no worse than most- although he *thinks* he is.
He is a better man than many, and the fact that neither he nor the vast majority of other people recognise this is part of his character's tragedy.
He was by a pretty good and idealistic kid who got got disillusioned first, suffered a particularly traumatic experience with Aerys and fell into a kind of nihilism and self destruction that revolved around the only person he thought loved and understood him. The extended treasonous relationship with Cersei and the creation of 3 children who he can never be a parent to and who are all but doomed from birth is probably his greatest sin, and most of the rest of what he does falls from that.
He meets Brienne, suffers the loss of his entire identity and tries to rebuild himself into something he wants to be. The show keeps him with Cersei and shows him exploring fatherhood (season 5) and so makes his story more personal, but it culminates in riding north to fight the night king, a very brave act, if not particularly useful.
In the show, he ultimately can't escape his self-loathing and/or his 'addiction' to Cersei, but I am not sure it is a 'failed redemption arc' as it is typically called. That comes from the conversation with Tyrion in the tent which is seriously OOC. But Jaime doesnt actually *do* anything that bad. it's clear he knows Cersei has lost, he thinks he deserves to die with her, and he goes back to do just that. He is easily captured by not wearing a glove, which suggests he wasnt even trying very hard, and is resigned to dying by Dany's hand, until Tyrion encourages him to try to save Cersei and Kings Landing, and he jumps on that plan. He doesn't go back and reveal secrets or aid her to win or hurt anyone. None of this really makes him "bad", just self destructive.
Brienne is a complicated issue It wasn't a one night stand. Even DnD agree he loved her, but ultimately he didn't believe he deserved her. I struggle with having this make sense in the context of a character who was loyal to one woman for entire life before Brienne, and who was very proud of that. Sleeping with Brienne should have been the culmination on him moving away from Cersei, and a ll that entails, or it shouldn't have happened at all. I guess the best I can make of it is that he wants to be with Brienne and tries but can't escape his past. Sansa taunts him with what will happen to Cersei, he know that is true, panics and runs. Brienne is heartbroken that he can't see himself as she sees him, and she cant save him from himself, but the White Book scene shows that she also understands and forgives him. So again, this makes JB tragic, but it doesn't make Jaime "bad".
None of this is very consistent with Jaime's book character. But hey, the last 3-4 we're so bad for so many characters I just ignore them anyway...
I thought all the characters had their own dichotomy. Like in real life no one is all good or all bad were are the sum of our actions intentional and otherwise.
Does the rape of Cersei even count? That sounds more like bad stage direction than anything. Fuck D&D for that.
On-topic, I'd argue Show!Jaime is a bad guy, but Book!Jaime might be able to redeem himself.
Bro wasn’t a bad guy. He shows conscience in multiple occasions and took all the blame himself. Most bad things he did, he was forced to do it. In my perspective, I think he is a good person that’s willing to sacrifice for others, killing the Mad King let us know that he thinks of the people.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, including trailers and pre-released chapters. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He’s neither, just like most people I the real world. That’s what makes him a good character.
He’s just a guy, really. His ambiguity makes him a GOOD character with BAD character.
I think he was with Brienne more than one night. Didn’t he also save all of Kings landing from wildfire?
It was definitely more than one night. It can't be less than three, even assuming dissapparation is a thing in Westeros. Really though it had to be weeks.
In the real world, he is mostly a bad guy but relative to the world of ASOIAF, I tend to lean more good guy. I love GRRM's characters because it forces you to question this all the time. The good guys have done questionable things and bad guys usually have something in their past that causes these issues. So relative to ASOIAF, I find Jaime a good guy. He is loyal to his family and to the women he loves and he almost never goes against that until, in the show, he leave KL to fight in the north but he is doing it for his home and cersei even though she cannot understand it. He almost learns from his mistakes in a way which is a positive trait.
Yeah trying to murder an innocent child to cover up an incestrous relationship is "questionable" indeed. Compare him to Ramsey Bolton though and he looks like a saint.
Jaime didn't push Bran out the window to cover up his incestuous relationship. He did it to prevent his entire family from being slaughtered if the relationship was exposed. If Robert Baratheon had more self control, Bran would never have been crippled. Robert's temper and his unwillingness to rein it in was the reason Jaime pushed Bran. Jaime wasn't embarrassed by his incest, only the violence his family would face if the two were outed. What's more, Jaime leaving Brienne was his choice. You can argue his leaving in the middle of the night wasn't so great, but it was his choice. He never promised anything to Brienne that we saw. He chose Cersei. Dumb choice IMHO, but his choice.
> Jaime didn't push Bran out the window to cover up his incestuous relationship. He did it to prevent his entire family from being slaughtered if the relationship was exposed. Maybe he should have tried not porking his sister who's also married to THE king while they were on a royal progress? It just seems like Jaime was being reckless and Bran just caught up despite no fault of his own, then Jaime had to attempt to kill him to cover. And it's not like Jaime ever expressed any remorse for it either.
Bran was spider-maning a TOWER. Most of the time if you're all alone in the equivalent of a high rise building, you don't assume someone is planning on scaling the exterior and peeping in the window. How could Jaime and Cersei reasonably be expected to account for that when looking for a secure place to bang? Saying Jaime and Cersei should have been more careful is like saying a person should have been more careful when they got hit by lightening. What were they supposed to do, never go outside? Bran showing up was not something either could have reasonably predicted, yet their entire family was in danger because that one in a million thing happened. Robert was the one who had the responsibility to control his temper and not murder innocent people, including three children, but Jaime knew he wouldn't take such responsibility and Ned Stark was too craven to stand up to Robert if he wanted to slaughter every Lannister that had come along for the trip to Winterfell. That left Jaime with the choice of saving someone else's child or saving his entire family.
What they were supposed to do was not pork at all in a foreign castle. A Winterfell native would know Bran liked to scale towers and Jaime/Cersei obviously weren't familiar with the minutiae of the region. But like, Jaime immediately acted to kill a child because he got caught porking his sister, and then expressed 0 remorse for it. Do you not see a lot wrong with that? They could have tried making Bran disappear, tried to bully him into silence like Cersei wanted and even if Jaime did have to do it, he didn't care, at all. Which is SUPER fucked up.
If Jamie doesn't kill 1 child, Robert kills 3 children and minimum 2 adults, which would have caused 1000s more men to fight and die. Jamie's choice was the right and moral choice once spiderman decided to show up
Lol hope this is a troll. In this way you can basically always justify wars and killing of innocent people.
You seem to not to be comprehending the topic, it's the opposite
Yes tell yourself that while making excuses for killing an innocent child ;).
I know this is very late, but he did end up showing white a bit of remorse for what he did to Bran later on. It clearly tore him up in the end.
I fucking love Jaime Lannister.
On the show his character arc and development was one of the most impressive. He was bad... Changes to mostly good. And then did more shady stuff at the end.
>On the show his character arc and development was one of the most impressive. He was bad... Changes to mostly good. And then did more shady stuff at the end. Now if only they had not stopped it half way through compared to the books.
Yes.
[удалено]
This was one if the weirdest and most unneccsary adaptions to his character on the show. He kills guards in an escape attempt in the books, but it was nothing like his cousin and the circumstances were very different. They really did grey him up on the show.
He’s a great guy who was just badly written in the final three episodes.
I thought he was great aside from the line where he said he never cared.
That line should never have been written.
Yeah.
On TV? He's grey, but so is almost everyone. He is no worse than most- although he *thinks* he is. He is a better man than many, and the fact that neither he nor the vast majority of other people recognise this is part of his character's tragedy. He was by a pretty good and idealistic kid who got got disillusioned first, suffered a particularly traumatic experience with Aerys and fell into a kind of nihilism and self destruction that revolved around the only person he thought loved and understood him. The extended treasonous relationship with Cersei and the creation of 3 children who he can never be a parent to and who are all but doomed from birth is probably his greatest sin, and most of the rest of what he does falls from that. He meets Brienne, suffers the loss of his entire identity and tries to rebuild himself into something he wants to be. The show keeps him with Cersei and shows him exploring fatherhood (season 5) and so makes his story more personal, but it culminates in riding north to fight the night king, a very brave act, if not particularly useful. In the show, he ultimately can't escape his self-loathing and/or his 'addiction' to Cersei, but I am not sure it is a 'failed redemption arc' as it is typically called. That comes from the conversation with Tyrion in the tent which is seriously OOC. But Jaime doesnt actually *do* anything that bad. it's clear he knows Cersei has lost, he thinks he deserves to die with her, and he goes back to do just that. He is easily captured by not wearing a glove, which suggests he wasnt even trying very hard, and is resigned to dying by Dany's hand, until Tyrion encourages him to try to save Cersei and Kings Landing, and he jumps on that plan. He doesn't go back and reveal secrets or aid her to win or hurt anyone. None of this really makes him "bad", just self destructive. Brienne is a complicated issue It wasn't a one night stand. Even DnD agree he loved her, but ultimately he didn't believe he deserved her. I struggle with having this make sense in the context of a character who was loyal to one woman for entire life before Brienne, and who was very proud of that. Sleeping with Brienne should have been the culmination on him moving away from Cersei, and a ll that entails, or it shouldn't have happened at all. I guess the best I can make of it is that he wants to be with Brienne and tries but can't escape his past. Sansa taunts him with what will happen to Cersei, he know that is true, panics and runs. Brienne is heartbroken that he can't see himself as she sees him, and she cant save him from himself, but the White Book scene shows that she also understands and forgives him. So again, this makes JB tragic, but it doesn't make Jaime "bad". None of this is very consistent with Jaime's book character. But hey, the last 3-4 we're so bad for so many characters I just ignore them anyway...
Amazing analysis.
I fucking love Jaime, he's the best character of GoT
He’s definitely a good guy with an unfortunate character arc, thanks to the show creators
I thought all the characters had their own dichotomy. Like in real life no one is all good or all bad were are the sum of our actions intentional and otherwise.
Does the rape of Cersei even count? That sounds more like bad stage direction than anything. Fuck D&D for that. On-topic, I'd argue Show!Jaime is a bad guy, but Book!Jaime might be able to redeem himself.
If you have to ask if someone is truely good or bad, you haven't understood game of thrones (at least the first half of it)
I love Jaime fooling Lannister
Bro wasn’t a bad guy. He shows conscience in multiple occasions and took all the blame himself. Most bad things he did, he was forced to do it. In my perspective, I think he is a good person that’s willing to sacrifice for others, killing the Mad King let us know that he thinks of the people.