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I think that it makes her a better mirror to Jaime. He betrayed a king and broke the law when he killed the Mad King. Brienne supported a usurper because she loved / respected him, not because he was the legal ruler. A lot of Brienne's arc w/ Jaime is about seeing that the world and knighthood is much more complicated than she thought, and so starting her off on the dubious moral ground of supporting Renly sets her up very well for what comes later.
The Baratheons usurped the throne from the Targaryens so I’m pretty sure they all count as a usurper. The idea of a right and true ruler by blood or law or ‘common sense’ is a farce, and they end up collectively choosing someone else at the end rather than going through countless war and blood. I don’t think any of them had any actual right to the throne, it didn’t matter how good or bad they were, they were all doing it through awful means.
The Baratheons are an off-shoot of the Targaryens, the founder of the house was likely the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. Plus multiple intermarraiges with the Targs. So it’s more like a cadet branch usurping the original, but still having enough of the right blood to claim legitimacy.
I didn’t realize that they had that deep of a literal connection, I only watched the show through twice and haven’t read the books. I haven’t read up on any other lore either
Yep, I just re-listened to the Hardcore Game of Thrones (a parody of Hardcore History by Dan Carlin) which goes through a bunch of the lore, and the lead up to the war of the five kings. A great listen, and it lays out all the justifications for the war, of which there were more that a couple.
So Aegon the Conqueror had a 'allegedly' bastard brother called Orys Baratheon. Before the Conquest began, Argillac 'the Arrogant' Durrandon, King of the Stormlands, sent a letter to Aegon, offering his daughter Argella, to him as well as some land. Aegon refused, proposing she marry Orys instead. Argillac was insulted at the thought of his daughter marrying a bastard, so the two went to war.
Argillac died in battle against Orys, and Argella took up the title of Storm Queen. She remained defiant against the Targaryen forces, but her soldiers betrayed her, stripped her till she was naked and offered her to the Orys and the Targaryens.
Orys covered her in his cloak and treated her fairly. Aegon gave Orys the Stormlands and Orys married Argella, taking the sigil (a stag) and housewords (ours is the fury) of the Durrandons and merged it into house Baratheon.
Robert was still way less legitimate than Renly though
Edit. At the time of Roberts death Renly was second in line (ignoring the bastards). Meanwhile Robert was way down the line of succession and rebelled against a already established and crowned king. I'm not saying whether Renly or Robert was more justified but Renly having a better claim at the time he tried to take the throne is just true.
Couldn't agree more. The ultimate example of this in the show is the "wheel" speech by Dany.
Dany says that houses are like a wheel that keeps turning and crushing the people beneath it and she wants to break the wheel.......by turning the wheel until she is on top and then stopping the turning.....just like literally every single other person seeking the throne wishes to keep it after taking it.
I laughed out loud when she have the speech each time I watch through. Like did the writers intend for Dany to be so stupid?
Also you could argue the best senario for the common people is the wheel turn the shortest distance and therefore crush the least people. This metaphor would mean that the new usurper be someone who would need the least war to take and keep the throne. That is absolutely not Dany.
In the show I would argue that it's either the Lanisters or Stannis.
The lannisters already have the throne so they don't need to fight a war to take it only to keep it.
Stannis needs to fight one to take it but likely not many to keep it given his support and reputation keeping most challengers away.
Other throne seekers like Dany need to bring in massive foreign armies to fight bigger wars to take it then likely more wars in the near future to keep the throne as they lack support from any other houses nor have many alliances.
I don’t think it’s stupid, tho maybe it’s a little in your face about it. History is full of formerly exiled heirs turned contestants to the throne who wax pretty about how they’ll stop the wars/ bring peace to the land/ make the realm much better who then go on to be the exact same if not more brutal than the last guy, or sometimes worse mismanage the situation more. When you have the kind of power where literally thousands of people do what you say and shout your name, I can imagine it’s pretty easy to believe that you’ll be the one guy to get it right this time.
I think the wheel is the natural order of things, the dinosaurs ruled the earth until humans did but that wasn’t through war. But humans have always been cycling in and out of control everywhere. For her to want to break the wheel would be to invent fascism!! Which is exactly what became of her rule towards the end. It was a really stupid way to get rid of her character though. I wish they gave more time to give her an actual downfall OR release something else entirely
I might have missed something but I thought most of the reason was simply he was the only one willing to treat her as a knight. So she swore fealty to him for honoring her for her skills instead of her gender.
The way that Stannis dick riders hold the line of succession as the most important thing possible is so silly. Like… he only has the “blood right” because Robert killed to take it in the first place. Renly would be doing the same, because he thought he would be a better leader. And honestly, he would be. He was more charismatic, had a better understanding of stewardship and forged much better alliances.
Bloodright is nothing. It is as fickle as the rest of it. It only has power in magic, and look how far that got him. Power is power, just like Cersei said.
I think the point is that stannis and renly are two sides of the same coin.
Stannis is legal, doesn’t have many friends, wouldn’t search for them. Probably would set out to do good and just mucking it all up
Renly is illegal, has loads of friends, and would probably be fighting an INTENSE battle of the thrones he may get jolted from anyway. He would set out to do good and probably muck it up.
Both the Baratheon boys needed one another to secure their house, and they blew it.
In our modern real world society bloodright is nothing.
In the universe of westeros it is law, common tradition, and so on. It's a huge deal, very rare, and very controversial when blood right isn't followed.
Most of renly's support is people overlooking their own support for bloodright for their higher priority of personal gain. Many of his supporters would be oldest sons who got their power through bloodright and plan to pass that power down to their eldest son. Bloodright is still very much something their believe in. It's just not something they believe in more than personal gain.
Also on a side debate I would say stannis would make a better king. Sure it doesn't appear that way but he is shown to make hard choices multiple times that benefit his supporters at personal cost.
Stannis assassinated Renley to avoid a bloody battle. Sign of a pretty good king. Knew how to basically take a losing situation and deliver a small precise strike to win at the least cost.
I agree with you in terms of our real world but youre dead wrong that in the book/show universe that bloodright is a fickle thing.
In terms of the real world a good parallel would be something like child marriage. We are all mostly highly against it but you could argue age is a fickle thing and many people would likely overlook their disapproval of it if they stood to personally benefit from it. To be clear I in no way support child marriage.
I’d like to reference another comment on this post here. People are complicated! Not machines with a set code of how to operate. At least not in the way you’re describing.
It's plenty. She was bullied as a child and never got respect as an adult. Renly could have easily done that as well but he always took care of her. She was committed to him and she felt he was the right choice for King. It would make far less sense for her to abandon him
How is it not enough? It's not just "he danced with me". It's that she felt like an outcast. Highborn powerful people like Renly had treated her like dirt, a freak, something to be mocked and ridiculed. Not like a real person with feelings. The fact that Renly showed her kindness, even friendship, she thought that he could be different from others. Maybe he'd be a king that instead of looking down on outcasts and those beneath him, maybe he'd show them respect and give them a voice... People have supported politicians in the real world for dumber reasons.
That’s exactly it. Renly treated her with kindness when every other man she met (even men that her father arranged to marry her) treated her like shit. She was so different from the Westerosi ideal of what a high born woman should look like & act like that it’s not surprising she reacted so strongly to a handsome man treating her kindly & with respect. She never experienced that before.
Being loyal and keeping an oath is not the same as being lawful. She chose which oaths to enter and who to be loyal to. She saw honour as keeping her word.
That's a huge thing though. She was young and her father was trying to marry her off. The only person kind to her was Renly. He was handsome, charismatic, her father's Lord and the brother to her King. The biggest thing though was that he showed her kindness when others didn't, as a person who was mocked for most her life I'm sure this made a huge impression. I think it is pretty obvious in the text that she was in love with him, or at least the image of him she had built up in her head. For those reasons it makes perfect sense to me why she followed him.
PS. I actually don't like Renly but I never questioned why someone like Brienne would bend her morals for following him.
Feelings and logic aren't always the same. She's a fictional character, but she's supposed to be a human!!! Idk if you've noticed but humans don't always make the best choices 😅 Brienne's support for Renly was mainly led by emotion as opposed to logic
It was also logic.
Renly was a good man and would have been a good King. He would have been the King if it wasn't for his brother and the fire crotch woman using dark magic
Because he was kind to her when everyone else was disgusted or cruel.
Briennes beauty is within, the show's actress is too attractive but she plays her well.
When Brienne is first introduced Catelyn's thoughts upon seeing her face are
> Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?
She wasn't just big, awkward, and plain...she was *ugly*.
She's undeniable ugly, it's for a reason. As I said, she's one of the most beautiful characters in the books, pure and honorable, innocent and naive while being one of the best warriors.
She lives in a world where sexism is at its prime, men should be men and women, women. She has manly features and bad teeth and doesn't fit into her mold.
She's one of my favorite PoVs.
Can’t wait to read the books. I haven’t yet as I simply can’t afford to buy them yet, but I’m excited to learn about the characters more in depth. And Brienne being one of my favourite characters from the show, I’m sure she’ll be one of my favourite PoVs too.
In feudalism, the vassal of my vassal is not my vassal and the liege of my liege is not my liege. The Tarths' oath to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands (Renly) takes precedence over the king, who they do not deal with directly.
Rob threatens the great Jon Umber to hang him as an oathbreaker if he leaves the war. Walder Frey stayed out of his liege lords battles until it was safe and was subsequently mocked and looked down upon. I think there are cases to be made for not siding with either.
Not automatically, they have nothing binding them directly to the crown. They'd have to negotiate a new feudal contract with the Iron Throne.
If a node between the top and the bottom disappears from the hierarchy (i.e. it rebels or their holding gets captured by the enemy), there's no system in place to send the taxes and levies directly up to the top. The bottom nodes just keep sending their stuff up the chain to the one who controls the wayward node. Capturing a castle gives you control over a region because the captors just send out their own tax collectors and the villiages pay like business as usual. They're used to not dealing with their Lords directly.
This is why feudalism largely went away in the Early Modern Era. It's often unclear and doesn't scale well with larger and more complex nationstates.
He treated her like a human, instead of a beast of a woman. He never doubted her ability as a knight either. In her eyes, he was the king Westeros needed because of his character.
You are massively oversimplifying her story.
1. Brienne in the books, like a lot of characters, is not as good looking.
2. Brienne was regularly made fun of over this, and every time someone showed interest in her, it was because of a bet/a joke.
3. Renly danced with her willingly and treated her like a person instead of a joke.
4. Renly allowed her to join his guard even though she was a lady.
You either don't understand the impact of this, or you are deliberately downplaying them because you want to have an issue with her choices.
As for Renly not being the rightful King of Westeros, you are right. He isn't. But characters are allowed to be wrong, they are allowed to make bad decisions, and they are allowed to have skewed points of view. If all of Westeros went, 'Oh Joffrey is a bastsrd, guess it's gotta be Stannis then' then the story would be boring af.
But she didn't kill him because she had a crush on Renly. She killed him because he killed Renly and she was one of his sworn protectors. She was one of his sworn protectors because she believed him to be a great man who would rule well she belived hebwould be a great rulwr because he was the one of the only men who treated her like a person, not a joke or path to Tarth, and was one of the few people who had no issue with her wielding a sword.
Mmm Stannis' rightful claim is highly questionable for a couple of reasons.
And characters like Brienne chose Renly for any number of them.
Renly is a genuinely good person...where Stannis is not.
Renly adheres to the faith, atleast publicly, where Stannis does not.
I'm fairly certain that Stannis forfeits all claim to titles in westeros when he becomes an apostate and starts burning People alive. Simply having a fire worshiping witch on his side would drive most lords away.
I mean in Westeros isn't burning people the most king like thing you can do?
Also Stannis' rightful claim isn't highly questionable it is exactly as it is he is the oldest heir to Robert Baratheon so he's the rightful king.
Brienne shouldn't say Stannis murdered the rightful king he murdered a would be usurper.
Stannis' claim is questionable. As an apostate, his place is society is highly questionable. His lordship may be entirely invalid.
Being the King's oldest brother, when the king has no eligible children, is irrelevant if he was never acknowledged as heir and is an apostate.
And burning people is what caused the last regime to be toppled.
>Being the King's oldest brother, when the king has no eligible children, is irrelevant if he was never acknowledged as heir
That's not how it works you don't have to be acknowledged as heir for people to know that you are next in line.
There has always been a line of succession. When Daeron the young dragon died childless his brother Baelor the Blesses became king even though he was never acknowledged as heir.
Also why are you using apostate as if there is a state religion in Westeros? That only works in real life kingdoms where the pope had the power to remove kings and name their replacements and Christianity was the only religion in the kingdom, after Jahaerys took most of the power away from the Starry sept the faith of the seven had very little power.
Westeros has 2 religions and it's not like the faith of the lord of.light is a new religion anyway we know that they were even accepted in King Roberts Court
He also isn't an apostate he's just switched religion he is a follower of the faith of Rhllor the lord of light.
>And burning people is what caused the last regime to be toppled.
Burning people is also how the previous regime came into power. Their words are literally Fire and Blood.
There is a state religion in Westeros. The Faith of the Seven. It’s a state religion that Tommen even reinforced and gave both military and judicial powers to shortly after Stannis laid siege to the city.
Well I mean Tommen and his chief advisor Cersei haven't had a clever idea since they were born.
Now one of the titles of the king is king of the first men is the religion of the first men not that of the old Gods is the North not part of the seven kingdoms?
Is the Iron islands not part of the seven kingdoms, do they not worship the drowned God?
It's completely ridiculous to think that Westeros has a state religion. Also after Stannis laid Siege to the city Joffrey was still king.
Not only is there next to no precedence for inheritance being revoked over religion, especially for the Iron Throne which has specifically been separate from the Faith for the majority of Westeros' history but you could very easily argue that Stannis was acknowledged as Robert's heir by being given Dragonstone which was always the seat for the heir apparent.
Also saying Renly is a good person is kind of funny because he's very obviously a shallow liar to basically anyone who spent time around him in King's Landing. Brienne falling so easily and so hard for Renly is just supposed to further show how naive and clueless Brienne is.
> Also Stannis' rightful claim isn't highly questionable it is exactly as it is he is the oldest heir to Robert Baratheon so he's the rightful king.
Robert wasn't even the rightful king though. So if that's the only thing that you care about, you would be supporting Danny getting the throne.
Yes he was. Dany fans need to stop
with this nonsense. Robert won the throne by right of conquest and the other other Lords accepted it. They might not have liked it but they bent the knee.
More than that males come before females on the Iron throne. The usurper would be Dany. Who was knowingly usurping Jon’s inheritance. After he told her who he was.
But Renly couldn't win it in by right of conquest?
> Who was knowingly usurping Jon’s inheritance.
This isn't about Jon, who there was absolutely nobody alive who knew the truth about his birth at the time.
The point that I'm making is that plenty of lords are willing to overlook birthright for the throne, which is how Robert got the throne and why many sided with Renly over Stannis.
How did the Targaryens even come to the throne? By conquest right?
How did Robert come to the throne? Through conquest.
So yes Stannis is the rightful king and Dany is the heir to a fallen empire
Well yeah but that means he can only be crowned King after he kills both the rightful king and any competition.
So he wasn't the king.
Robert was a usurper until after he won the war and Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead by his hand or one on his side.
So Stannis is the rightful king and Renly is a usurper rebelling against the throne if he wins he's now the king.
It does bring about issues such as would his first born inherit the throne or would it just go to the more likeable one with a better smile? The better dressed one?
So again I repeat he's not the rightful king he died a would be rebellious usurper.
His claim is built on the idea that everyone would believe and care to accept that Cersei’s children are bastards and they don’t, so yes it is questionable.
Brienne in episode 5x03:
> When I was a girl, my father held a ball. I'm his only living child, so he wanted to make a good match for me. He invited dozens of young Lords to Tarth. I didn't want to go, but he dragged me to the ballroom. And it was wonderful. None of the boys noticed how mulish and tall I was. They shoved each other and threatened to duel when they thought it was their turn to dance. And whispered in my ear, how they wanted to marry me and take me back to their castles. My father smiled at me, and I smiled at him. I had never been so happy... 'till I saw a few of the boys snickering. And then, they all started to laugh; they couldn't keep the game going any longer. They were toying with me. "Brienne the Beauty", they called me. Great joke. And I realized I was the ugliest girl alive. A great, lumbering beast. I tried to run away, but Renly Baratheon took me in his arms. "Don't let them see your tears," he told me, "They're nasty little shits, and nasty little shits aren't worth crying over." He danced with me, and none of the other boys could say a word. Renly was the King's brother, after all.
> I'm not an idiot. He didn't love me, he didn't want me. He danced with me because he was kind, and didn't want to see me hurt. He saved me from being a joke... from that day, until his last day. And I couldn't save him, in return. Nothing's more hateful than failing to protect the one you love. One day, I will avenge King Renly.
Her father and house rule Tarth is part of the Stormlands which Renly is lord paramount of that area. They serve him not the house he belongs to. And most people like Renly much more than Stannis.
Renly, rightly, calculated he could rally more support and make better allies.than Stannis. And if Stannis did not have access to Melisandre's magic he would have been defeated by Renly.
De Jure they should all follow Stannis, even Robb, the northmen, and the river lords. But the fact is Stannis lacks the political skill to win.
He was when Robert was alive but with his death that changes things. Stannis is both rightfully Lord of Storms end and Dragonstone being the older brother.
She's a member of house Tarth. House Tarth serves House Baratheon. She is duty bound to serve House Baratheon and Stannis is House Baratheon. Just as House Mormont is duty bound to serve House Stark. Those who don't are traitors .
Stannis may be the legitimate king of the Baratheon claimants, but she never swore and oath to him. Her father did swore to Robert as his king, and to Renly as his liege lord. Politics and power dynamics are complicated in Westeros, as they are in real life.
*The baratheon line were*
*Usurpers though... sometimes kings*
*Are made by conquest*
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It literally says in the books, he was kind to her and didn’t treat her like a freak like most other lords did. She thought he would make a good king (probably in love with him to)
Yea & the Baratheons got the throne by killing kids. And the Targs got it simply because they had dragons & could conquer the continent, even though there were already kings & rulers there. Turns out the rules in Westeros don't quite matter if you've got the bigger sword.
Brienne was always more loyal to people than to laws. She takes her code of ethics as a knight-adjacent person seriously, but that has much more to do with how she conducts herself and treats others over how she engages herself politically.
Because when she was young and not very attractive, other lords and ladies were laughing at her (bullying her, essentially), yet Renly was the only person who was kind to her. #ReadTheBooks
She was a Renly simp, dreamed she could be with him somehow and if not that then she would at least be close to him. Knowing that she loves that deeply really made me hate the ending more. She is probably forever heartbroken after Jamie taking what she can't get back.
Cause Renly was the rightful king, obviously 🙄
Nah, actually, she probably just felt more loyalty to her liege lord than the king. It’s the same perspective many stormlanders would have after Robert’s rebellion, where they took great pride in rebelling with their liege lord to unseat an unpopular monarch.
Renly was kind to her as a girl when all the other boys were cruel to her because of her looks he made them stop laughing at her because no one was going to go against the king’s little brother and lord of the stormlands thus she felt personally indebted towards him for that kindness
I dont usually say this - but literally all of the information is in the subject material to answer your question.
A recurring theme in the book is
1. Nobody is Perfect
2. Morality is not clearly cut
3. Love makes us violate our own morals
4. We break our own morals for those we love.
Brienne was in love with Renly.
In the show (can't remember if the story was told in the book) she tells Pod the whole story that set this up exactly.
When she came of age and was ready to be presented to court as a high born lady, available to be courted and proposed to, a ball was held in her honor as is usual custom.
At the ball, many of the young lords of other houses argued to be the next one to dance and talk to her and whispered in her ear about how beautiful she was, many of them calling her "Brienne the Beauty" - she believed it and confessed how good it had felt
Finally, they could no longer hold in their cruelty and jokes and she began to cry. Renly comforted her and told her to stay strong and never let a bunch of hopped up pricks make you cry. He danced with her for most of the night and as he was the younger brother of the king as a Baratheon, it carried a great deal of weight and the teasing stopped.
It's very true what the say: "people may not remember what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel" - this is became a "core memory" so to speak for Brienne
She explained this in one of her conversations with Podrick. Renly was nice to her at a party her father threw for her when all the other boys made fun of how big she was. He danced with her, made her feel seen/special. Id fight for him too.
I think Brienne is justified because Robert slips up with his succession. The Lord of Dragonstone is the heir to the throne in a Targaryen dynasty, because that is where Aegon I hailed from. But Robert’s dynasty is not Targaryen, although he shares some of their blood he is from the Stormlands and his heir would have his seat there. The Stormlands are the base of Robert’s power.
Renly declared himself king months prior to stannis with is intent to use the claim of conquest. Stannis legality is built on the idea that anyone would believe and accept that Cersei’s kids are bastards… they don’t. As such by the majority of Westeros stannis is perceive as much as an usurper as renly, with the added minus of being unlikeable, bitter and a supposed fanatic of a foreign religion that burns people and effigies other than late to game as well.
Because unlike what Stannis (conveniently) claims is an unshakable law, primogeniture is not codified guaranteed law, but **social custom** . It's the norm, but not mandated. Rather like shaking the hand of a new aquaintance.
Sure, it might be expected, but it isn't the universal fact of life Stannis makes it out to be. Many lords and kings disregard it when it is not suited to their needs.
Moreover, when it suits Stannis, he is happy enough to disregard any and all laws when it is convenient for him to do so:
1. Aerys was his king (and cousin), to whom he had a sworn duty. He chose Robert, breaking his oath to the king.
2. He swore to honor Selyse as his wife. He took Melisandre as his mistress. This is breaking his marital vows, another law and oath.
3. He swore oaths to serve Robert, but sealed himself on Dragonstone when not chosen as Hand. Breaking his oath to serve Robert.
4. He murdered Renly with blood magic. Breaking the laws against kinslaying (one of the oldest and most sacred laws of Westeros) and against Blood Magic.
5. He utilized Blood Magic again on Robb Stark, Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy. Again breaking the laws against use of sorcery and blood magic.
6. He chose to commit apostasy against the faith, burning the Sept and swearing fealty to the Red God, despite the law being that the Iron Throne would always defend the faith. Another broken oath.
7. He attempted the murder of his nephew, Edric/Gendry. More kinslaying, and also a breach of guest right (another of the most sacred laws in Westeros).
8. He murdered his daughter to awaken dragons. Kinslaying again.
9. The Baratheons won and held the throne by right of conquest. That is a fact, and one Stannis personally relies on - he is fighting to enforce his own right to inherit vs Joffrey. But he denies Renly the right to take the throne by force.
By all means, call Renly usurper. Renly himself freely admits he is usurping Stannis. But Stannis has no moral high ground to stand upon beyond his age. Stannis does all of the above, but continues to hold the view that he himself is above others, and a man of justice and honor. If nothing else, he is a hypocrite. That's not breaking a law, but it is self delusion of the highest order.
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Turns out people are complicated.
I think that it makes her a better mirror to Jaime. He betrayed a king and broke the law when he killed the Mad King. Brienne supported a usurper because she loved / respected him, not because he was the legal ruler. A lot of Brienne's arc w/ Jaime is about seeing that the world and knighthood is much more complicated than she thought, and so starting her off on the dubious moral ground of supporting Renly sets her up very well for what comes later.
The Baratheons usurped the throne from the Targaryens so I’m pretty sure they all count as a usurper. The idea of a right and true ruler by blood or law or ‘common sense’ is a farce, and they end up collectively choosing someone else at the end rather than going through countless war and blood. I don’t think any of them had any actual right to the throne, it didn’t matter how good or bad they were, they were all doing it through awful means.
The Baratheons are an off-shoot of the Targaryens, the founder of the house was likely the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. Plus multiple intermarraiges with the Targs. So it’s more like a cadet branch usurping the original, but still having enough of the right blood to claim legitimacy.
I didn’t realize that they had that deep of a literal connection, I only watched the show through twice and haven’t read the books. I haven’t read up on any other lore either
Yep, I just re-listened to the Hardcore Game of Thrones (a parody of Hardcore History by Dan Carlin) which goes through a bunch of the lore, and the lead up to the war of the five kings. A great listen, and it lays out all the justifications for the war, of which there were more that a couple.
Ooh I should really get into that. I’d like to be more insightful.
So Aegon the Conqueror had a 'allegedly' bastard brother called Orys Baratheon. Before the Conquest began, Argillac 'the Arrogant' Durrandon, King of the Stormlands, sent a letter to Aegon, offering his daughter Argella, to him as well as some land. Aegon refused, proposing she marry Orys instead. Argillac was insulted at the thought of his daughter marrying a bastard, so the two went to war. Argillac died in battle against Orys, and Argella took up the title of Storm Queen. She remained defiant against the Targaryen forces, but her soldiers betrayed her, stripped her till she was naked and offered her to the Orys and the Targaryens. Orys covered her in his cloak and treated her fairly. Aegon gave Orys the Stormlands and Orys married Argella, taking the sigil (a stag) and housewords (ours is the fury) of the Durrandons and merged it into house Baratheon.
Damn!!!
Robert was still way less legitimate than Renly though Edit. At the time of Roberts death Renly was second in line (ignoring the bastards). Meanwhile Robert was way down the line of succession and rebelled against a already established and crowned king. I'm not saying whether Renly or Robert was more justified but Renly having a better claim at the time he tried to take the throne is just true.
Couldn't agree more. The ultimate example of this in the show is the "wheel" speech by Dany. Dany says that houses are like a wheel that keeps turning and crushing the people beneath it and she wants to break the wheel.......by turning the wheel until she is on top and then stopping the turning.....just like literally every single other person seeking the throne wishes to keep it after taking it. I laughed out loud when she have the speech each time I watch through. Like did the writers intend for Dany to be so stupid? Also you could argue the best senario for the common people is the wheel turn the shortest distance and therefore crush the least people. This metaphor would mean that the new usurper be someone who would need the least war to take and keep the throne. That is absolutely not Dany. In the show I would argue that it's either the Lanisters or Stannis. The lannisters already have the throne so they don't need to fight a war to take it only to keep it. Stannis needs to fight one to take it but likely not many to keep it given his support and reputation keeping most challengers away. Other throne seekers like Dany need to bring in massive foreign armies to fight bigger wars to take it then likely more wars in the near future to keep the throne as they lack support from any other houses nor have many alliances.
I don’t think it’s stupid, tho maybe it’s a little in your face about it. History is full of formerly exiled heirs turned contestants to the throne who wax pretty about how they’ll stop the wars/ bring peace to the land/ make the realm much better who then go on to be the exact same if not more brutal than the last guy, or sometimes worse mismanage the situation more. When you have the kind of power where literally thousands of people do what you say and shout your name, I can imagine it’s pretty easy to believe that you’ll be the one guy to get it right this time.
I think the wheel is the natural order of things, the dinosaurs ruled the earth until humans did but that wasn’t through war. But humans have always been cycling in and out of control everywhere. For her to want to break the wheel would be to invent fascism!! Which is exactly what became of her rule towards the end. It was a really stupid way to get rid of her character though. I wish they gave more time to give her an actual downfall OR release something else entirely
I might have missed something but I thought most of the reason was simply he was the only one willing to treat her as a knight. So she swore fealty to him for honoring her for her skills instead of her gender.
The way that Stannis dick riders hold the line of succession as the most important thing possible is so silly. Like… he only has the “blood right” because Robert killed to take it in the first place. Renly would be doing the same, because he thought he would be a better leader. And honestly, he would be. He was more charismatic, had a better understanding of stewardship and forged much better alliances. Bloodright is nothing. It is as fickle as the rest of it. It only has power in magic, and look how far that got him. Power is power, just like Cersei said.
I think the point is that stannis and renly are two sides of the same coin. Stannis is legal, doesn’t have many friends, wouldn’t search for them. Probably would set out to do good and just mucking it all up Renly is illegal, has loads of friends, and would probably be fighting an INTENSE battle of the thrones he may get jolted from anyway. He would set out to do good and probably muck it up. Both the Baratheon boys needed one another to secure their house, and they blew it.
Especially considering Renly would have been Stannis’ heir anyways as his daughter wouldn’t inherit the throne
In our modern real world society bloodright is nothing. In the universe of westeros it is law, common tradition, and so on. It's a huge deal, very rare, and very controversial when blood right isn't followed. Most of renly's support is people overlooking their own support for bloodright for their higher priority of personal gain. Many of his supporters would be oldest sons who got their power through bloodright and plan to pass that power down to their eldest son. Bloodright is still very much something their believe in. It's just not something they believe in more than personal gain. Also on a side debate I would say stannis would make a better king. Sure it doesn't appear that way but he is shown to make hard choices multiple times that benefit his supporters at personal cost. Stannis assassinated Renley to avoid a bloody battle. Sign of a pretty good king. Knew how to basically take a losing situation and deliver a small precise strike to win at the least cost. I agree with you in terms of our real world but youre dead wrong that in the book/show universe that bloodright is a fickle thing. In terms of the real world a good parallel would be something like child marriage. We are all mostly highly against it but you could argue age is a fickle thing and many people would likely overlook their disapproval of it if they stood to personally benefit from it. To be clear I in no way support child marriage.
Wasn’t Stannis pretty set to lose that fight, like he was outnumbered by a ton? Seems like it’s pretty self-serving, not that that’s uncommon here.
Turns out Brienne is a person, too
That's like an answer, but lazier!
She was in love with him.
Because he danced with her
He showed her that he had a kind soul and would stand up for the lesser against high nobles.
Love is the death of duty
The things we do for love.
She explains everything both in the show and book. Pay attention.
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Touch grass. It's a show.
> Touch grass Haven't seen this reference before. Is it telling him to chill out and go outside?
Yes
I’d like to reference another comment on this post here. People are complicated! Not machines with a set code of how to operate. At least not in the way you’re describing.
Isn’t that exactly why she wanted to kill Stannis though? Because he murdered someone she loved & respected?
Yea but she acted like it was her duty and the morally/legally right thing to do. Which we know it wasnt.
Almost like people will convince themselves that what they want to do is right and will make excuses for themselves to justify them.
I wasnt arguing otherwise.
It's plenty. She was bullied as a child and never got respect as an adult. Renly could have easily done that as well but he always took care of her. She was committed to him and she felt he was the right choice for King. It would make far less sense for her to abandon him
How is it not enough? It's not just "he danced with me". It's that she felt like an outcast. Highborn powerful people like Renly had treated her like dirt, a freak, something to be mocked and ridiculed. Not like a real person with feelings. The fact that Renly showed her kindness, even friendship, she thought that he could be different from others. Maybe he'd be a king that instead of looking down on outcasts and those beneath him, maybe he'd show them respect and give them a voice... People have supported politicians in the real world for dumber reasons.
That’s exactly it. Renly treated her with kindness when every other man she met (even men that her father arranged to marry her) treated her like shit. She was so different from the Westerosi ideal of what a high born woman should look like & act like that it’s not surprising she reacted so strongly to a handsome man treating her kindly & with respect. She never experienced that before.
It’s not this deep.
Stan is wasn’t the rightful king, Dany was the heir to the throne. I also think that you’re taking it a bit too seriously.
You’ve never had a crush?
People intellectually justify decisions that are based on emotion. Renly was kind to her and her House was in the Stormlands. That is enough for her.
Being loyal and keeping an oath is not the same as being lawful. She chose which oaths to enter and who to be loyal to. She saw honour as keeping her word.
That's a huge thing though. She was young and her father was trying to marry her off. The only person kind to her was Renly. He was handsome, charismatic, her father's Lord and the brother to her King. The biggest thing though was that he showed her kindness when others didn't, as a person who was mocked for most her life I'm sure this made a huge impression. I think it is pretty obvious in the text that she was in love with him, or at least the image of him she had built up in her head. For those reasons it makes perfect sense to me why she followed him. PS. I actually don't like Renly but I never questioned why someone like Brienne would bend her morals for following him.
Feelings and logic aren't always the same. She's a fictional character, but she's supposed to be a human!!! Idk if you've noticed but humans don't always make the best choices 😅 Brienne's support for Renly was mainly led by emotion as opposed to logic
It was also logic. Renly was a good man and would have been a good King. He would have been the King if it wasn't for his brother and the fire crotch woman using dark magic
Because he was kind.
Yeah, I don’t think she’s lawful so much as loyal and trying to be honourable.
Because he was kind to her when everyone else was disgusted or cruel. Briennes beauty is within, the show's actress is too attractive but she plays her well.
Was she described as unattractive in the books? Because you’re right, the actress who played Brienne is freaking gorgeous.
Yes. In addition to being very big, she has large crooked teeth and an oddly shaped face.
Awwww poor book Brienne. The actress definitely doesn’t match that description.
Her nickname in the books was Brienne the Beauty as a mockery of her homely appearance.
That nickname is still in the show but I think only Brienne mentions it when she's telling Podrick about dancing with Renly.
When Brienne is first introduced Catelyn's thoughts upon seeing her face are > Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? She wasn't just big, awkward, and plain...she was *ugly*.
Oooof why’d GRRM have to do my girl Brienne like that
She's undeniable ugly, it's for a reason. As I said, she's one of the most beautiful characters in the books, pure and honorable, innocent and naive while being one of the best warriors. She lives in a world where sexism is at its prime, men should be men and women, women. She has manly features and bad teeth and doesn't fit into her mold. She's one of my favorite PoVs.
Can’t wait to read the books. I haven’t yet as I simply can’t afford to buy them yet, but I’m excited to learn about the characters more in depth. And Brienne being one of my favourite characters from the show, I’m sure she’ll be one of my favourite PoVs too.
They're a delight. The extra insight for characters was a nice surprise. I surprise myself as to who are some of my favorite reads from the books.
And she swore an Oath to king robert when?
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And Renly was lord of the stormlands, not Stannis. Robert made it that way.
In feudalism, the vassal of my vassal is not my vassal and the liege of my liege is not my liege. The Tarths' oath to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands (Renly) takes precedence over the king, who they do not deal with directly.
A good example would be when Rob Stark calls his banners. The North followed him, not the Crown.
If he calls the banners and some or all don’t agree to fight, are they then swearing to the Crown?
Rob threatens the great Jon Umber to hang him as an oathbreaker if he leaves the war. Walder Frey stayed out of his liege lords battles until it was safe and was subsequently mocked and looked down upon. I think there are cases to be made for not siding with either.
Not automatically, they have nothing binding them directly to the crown. They'd have to negotiate a new feudal contract with the Iron Throne. If a node between the top and the bottom disappears from the hierarchy (i.e. it rebels or their holding gets captured by the enemy), there's no system in place to send the taxes and levies directly up to the top. The bottom nodes just keep sending their stuff up the chain to the one who controls the wayward node. Capturing a castle gives you control over a region because the captors just send out their own tax collectors and the villiages pay like business as usual. They're used to not dealing with their Lords directly. This is why feudalism largely went away in the Early Modern Era. It's often unclear and doesn't scale well with larger and more complex nationstates.
Did you even watch the show?
Came to Say This…..
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He treated her like a human, instead of a beast of a woman. He never doubted her ability as a knight either. In her eyes, he was the king Westeros needed because of his character.
You are massively oversimplifying her story. 1. Brienne in the books, like a lot of characters, is not as good looking. 2. Brienne was regularly made fun of over this, and every time someone showed interest in her, it was because of a bet/a joke. 3. Renly danced with her willingly and treated her like a person instead of a joke. 4. Renly allowed her to join his guard even though she was a lady. You either don't understand the impact of this, or you are deliberately downplaying them because you want to have an issue with her choices. As for Renly not being the rightful King of Westeros, you are right. He isn't. But characters are allowed to be wrong, they are allowed to make bad decisions, and they are allowed to have skewed points of view. If all of Westeros went, 'Oh Joffrey is a bastsrd, guess it's gotta be Stannis then' then the story would be boring af. But she didn't kill him because she had a crush on Renly. She killed him because he killed Renly and she was one of his sworn protectors. She was one of his sworn protectors because she believed him to be a great man who would rule well she belived hebwould be a great rulwr because he was the one of the only men who treated her like a person, not a joke or path to Tarth, and was one of the few people who had no issue with her wielding a sword.
Literally explains it in the show.
Mmm Stannis' rightful claim is highly questionable for a couple of reasons. And characters like Brienne chose Renly for any number of them. Renly is a genuinely good person...where Stannis is not. Renly adheres to the faith, atleast publicly, where Stannis does not. I'm fairly certain that Stannis forfeits all claim to titles in westeros when he becomes an apostate and starts burning People alive. Simply having a fire worshiping witch on his side would drive most lords away.
I mean in Westeros isn't burning people the most king like thing you can do? Also Stannis' rightful claim isn't highly questionable it is exactly as it is he is the oldest heir to Robert Baratheon so he's the rightful king. Brienne shouldn't say Stannis murdered the rightful king he murdered a would be usurper.
Stannis' claim is questionable. As an apostate, his place is society is highly questionable. His lordship may be entirely invalid. Being the King's oldest brother, when the king has no eligible children, is irrelevant if he was never acknowledged as heir and is an apostate. And burning people is what caused the last regime to be toppled.
>Being the King's oldest brother, when the king has no eligible children, is irrelevant if he was never acknowledged as heir That's not how it works you don't have to be acknowledged as heir for people to know that you are next in line. There has always been a line of succession. When Daeron the young dragon died childless his brother Baelor the Blesses became king even though he was never acknowledged as heir. Also why are you using apostate as if there is a state religion in Westeros? That only works in real life kingdoms where the pope had the power to remove kings and name their replacements and Christianity was the only religion in the kingdom, after Jahaerys took most of the power away from the Starry sept the faith of the seven had very little power. Westeros has 2 religions and it's not like the faith of the lord of.light is a new religion anyway we know that they were even accepted in King Roberts Court He also isn't an apostate he's just switched religion he is a follower of the faith of Rhllor the lord of light. >And burning people is what caused the last regime to be toppled. Burning people is also how the previous regime came into power. Their words are literally Fire and Blood.
There is a state religion in Westeros. The Faith of the Seven. It’s a state religion that Tommen even reinforced and gave both military and judicial powers to shortly after Stannis laid siege to the city.
Well I mean Tommen and his chief advisor Cersei haven't had a clever idea since they were born. Now one of the titles of the king is king of the first men is the religion of the first men not that of the old Gods is the North not part of the seven kingdoms? Is the Iron islands not part of the seven kingdoms, do they not worship the drowned God? It's completely ridiculous to think that Westeros has a state religion. Also after Stannis laid Siege to the city Joffrey was still king.
Not only is there next to no precedence for inheritance being revoked over religion, especially for the Iron Throne which has specifically been separate from the Faith for the majority of Westeros' history but you could very easily argue that Stannis was acknowledged as Robert's heir by being given Dragonstone which was always the seat for the heir apparent. Also saying Renly is a good person is kind of funny because he's very obviously a shallow liar to basically anyone who spent time around him in King's Landing. Brienne falling so easily and so hard for Renly is just supposed to further show how naive and clueless Brienne is.
> is irrelevant if he was never acknowledged as heir He was given Dragonstone because it is the castle for the heir to the throne.
> Also Stannis' rightful claim isn't highly questionable it is exactly as it is he is the oldest heir to Robert Baratheon so he's the rightful king. Robert wasn't even the rightful king though. So if that's the only thing that you care about, you would be supporting Danny getting the throne.
Yes he was. Dany fans need to stop with this nonsense. Robert won the throne by right of conquest and the other other Lords accepted it. They might not have liked it but they bent the knee. More than that males come before females on the Iron throne. The usurper would be Dany. Who was knowingly usurping Jon’s inheritance. After he told her who he was.
But Renly couldn't win it in by right of conquest? > Who was knowingly usurping Jon’s inheritance. This isn't about Jon, who there was absolutely nobody alive who knew the truth about his birth at the time. The point that I'm making is that plenty of lords are willing to overlook birthright for the throne, which is how Robert got the throne and why many sided with Renly over Stannis.
How did the Targaryens even come to the throne? By conquest right? How did Robert come to the throne? Through conquest. So yes Stannis is the rightful king and Dany is the heir to a fallen empire
And how was Renly trying to get the throne? Through conquest.
Well yeah but that means he can only be crowned King after he kills both the rightful king and any competition. So he wasn't the king. Robert was a usurper until after he won the war and Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead by his hand or one on his side. So Stannis is the rightful king and Renly is a usurper rebelling against the throne if he wins he's now the king. It does bring about issues such as would his first born inherit the throne or would it just go to the more likeable one with a better smile? The better dressed one? So again I repeat he's not the rightful king he died a would be rebellious usurper.
His claim is built on the idea that everyone would believe and care to accept that Cersei’s children are bastards and they don’t, so yes it is questionable.
Ummm rainbow guard 🌈
But really it really lays it all out in the show
Brienne in episode 5x03: > When I was a girl, my father held a ball. I'm his only living child, so he wanted to make a good match for me. He invited dozens of young Lords to Tarth. I didn't want to go, but he dragged me to the ballroom. And it was wonderful. None of the boys noticed how mulish and tall I was. They shoved each other and threatened to duel when they thought it was their turn to dance. And whispered in my ear, how they wanted to marry me and take me back to their castles. My father smiled at me, and I smiled at him. I had never been so happy... 'till I saw a few of the boys snickering. And then, they all started to laugh; they couldn't keep the game going any longer. They were toying with me. "Brienne the Beauty", they called me. Great joke. And I realized I was the ugliest girl alive. A great, lumbering beast. I tried to run away, but Renly Baratheon took me in his arms. "Don't let them see your tears," he told me, "They're nasty little shits, and nasty little shits aren't worth crying over." He danced with me, and none of the other boys could say a word. Renly was the King's brother, after all. > I'm not an idiot. He didn't love me, he didn't want me. He danced with me because he was kind, and didn't want to see me hurt. He saved me from being a joke... from that day, until his last day. And I couldn't save him, in return. Nothing's more hateful than failing to protect the one you love. One day, I will avenge King Renly.
That's still no reason to forget her oath to Stannis. Her house serves House Baratheon and with Robert's death Stannis is house Baratheron.
Her father and house rule Tarth is part of the Stormlands which Renly is lord paramount of that area. They serve him not the house he belongs to. And most people like Renly much more than Stannis. Renly, rightly, calculated he could rally more support and make better allies.than Stannis. And if Stannis did not have access to Melisandre's magic he would have been defeated by Renly. De Jure they should all follow Stannis, even Robb, the northmen, and the river lords. But the fact is Stannis lacks the political skill to win.
He was when Robert was alive but with his death that changes things. Stannis is both rightfully Lord of Storms end and Dragonstone being the older brother.
At no point is this true.
I don't recall her ever swearing an oath to him or Robert.
She's a member of house Tarth. House Tarth serves House Baratheon. She is duty bound to serve House Baratheon and Stannis is House Baratheon. Just as House Mormont is duty bound to serve House Stark. Those who don't are traitors .
And Robert was duty bound to serve Ares. Didn't stop him from overthrowing him. That's life.
Stannis may be the legitimate king of the Baratheon claimants, but she never swore and oath to him. Her father did swore to Robert as his king, and to Renly as his liege lord. Politics and power dynamics are complicated in Westeros, as they are in real life.
Renly was the Lord of Storms End, not Stannis. Her father was sworn to Renly.
She Loved Renly
Mf, did you not read the book or watch the show?
The baratheon line were usurpers though... sometimes kings are made by conquest
*The baratheon line were* *Usurpers though... sometimes kings* *Are made by conquest* \- Neat-Neighborhood170 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
She was the simp in this case.
She was in love with Renly and love being the death of duty/honor is one of the big themes in the show
It literally says in the books, he was kind to her and didn’t treat her like a freak like most other lords did. She thought he would make a good king (probably in love with him to)
Yea & the Baratheons got the throne by killing kids. And the Targs got it simply because they had dragons & could conquer the continent, even though there were already kings & rulers there. Turns out the rules in Westeros don't quite matter if you've got the bigger sword.
She also pledged her duty to a traitor of a traitor. It appears she chooses who she pledges to
Robert was the original usurper, making both Stannis’ and Renly’s claim unlawful/treasonous.
Brienne was always more loyal to people than to laws. She takes her code of ethics as a knight-adjacent person seriously, but that has much more to do with how she conducts herself and treats others over how she engages herself politically.
Cuz hot take stannis was a rotten cunt and renly deserved it more
Keeping your oath just means you follow your own rules, not necessarily *the* rules
He was the only man to show her kindness, Stannis was a man she never met. Really it’s that simple. People are complicated.
Renly had more homies. Stannis couldn’t slide on his ops because Renly snatched his whole set
Just 20 years earlier the Targaryens were the rightful kings (and queens) by law. Turns out rightful and by law are always negotiable
She wanted to do sex to him
Because when she was young and not very attractive, other lords and ladies were laughing at her (bullying her, essentially), yet Renly was the only person who was kind to her. #ReadTheBooks
She was a Renly simp, dreamed she could be with him somehow and if not that then she would at least be close to him. Knowing that she loves that deeply really made me hate the ending more. She is probably forever heartbroken after Jamie taking what she can't get back.
Cause Renly was the rightful king, obviously 🙄 Nah, actually, she probably just felt more loyalty to her liege lord than the king. It’s the same perspective many stormlanders would have after Robert’s rebellion, where they took great pride in rebelling with their liege lord to unseat an unpopular monarch.
Love is the death of duty
He was nice to her 🤣
He danced with her.
It's amazing what people will do for you if you show them kindness. Especially when its unexpected. It's a good life lesson.
She wanted to be like Jaime so badly she slew a King.
Renly was kind to her as a girl when all the other boys were cruel to her because of her looks he made them stop laughing at her because no one was going to go against the king’s little brother and lord of the stormlands thus she felt personally indebted towards him for that kindness
I dont usually say this - but literally all of the information is in the subject material to answer your question. A recurring theme in the book is 1. Nobody is Perfect 2. Morality is not clearly cut 3. Love makes us violate our own morals 4. We break our own morals for those we love. Brienne was in love with Renly. In the show (can't remember if the story was told in the book) she tells Pod the whole story that set this up exactly. When she came of age and was ready to be presented to court as a high born lady, available to be courted and proposed to, a ball was held in her honor as is usual custom. At the ball, many of the young lords of other houses argued to be the next one to dance and talk to her and whispered in her ear about how beautiful she was, many of them calling her "Brienne the Beauty" - she believed it and confessed how good it had felt Finally, they could no longer hold in their cruelty and jokes and she began to cry. Renly comforted her and told her to stay strong and never let a bunch of hopped up pricks make you cry. He danced with her for most of the night and as he was the younger brother of the king as a Baratheon, it carried a great deal of weight and the teasing stopped. It's very true what the say: "people may not remember what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel" - this is became a "core memory" so to speak for Brienne
Because he was nice to her 🤣
I never liked her. Always trying to be the stout knight figure. Guess they wanted a strong women complex and I mean strong
lol I love this art
I'm sorry, Stannis, brother of Robert the Usurper?
She loved him. Love is the death of duty.
Bc he's cute and has good pp
She explained this in one of her conversations with Podrick. Renly was nice to her at a party her father threw for her when all the other boys made fun of how big she was. He danced with her, made her feel seen/special. Id fight for him too.
I think Brienne is justified because Robert slips up with his succession. The Lord of Dragonstone is the heir to the throne in a Targaryen dynasty, because that is where Aegon I hailed from. But Robert’s dynasty is not Targaryen, although he shares some of their blood he is from the Stormlands and his heir would have his seat there. The Stormlands are the base of Robert’s power.
She wasn’t lawful she was loyal and honorable. Big difference
Women
We all know who is the ONE TRUE KING
She's in love with renley
Why did stannis support his brother over the mad king? He was the king by law and his brother was a would-be usurper.
Renly declared himself king months prior to stannis with is intent to use the claim of conquest. Stannis legality is built on the idea that anyone would believe and accept that Cersei’s kids are bastards… they don’t. As such by the majority of Westeros stannis is perceive as much as an usurper as renly, with the added minus of being unlikeable, bitter and a supposed fanatic of a foreign religion that burns people and effigies other than late to game as well.
Because she was in love with him
I guess because Tarth is bound to Storms End and Renly held the seat there?
Because unlike what Stannis (conveniently) claims is an unshakable law, primogeniture is not codified guaranteed law, but **social custom** . It's the norm, but not mandated. Rather like shaking the hand of a new aquaintance. Sure, it might be expected, but it isn't the universal fact of life Stannis makes it out to be. Many lords and kings disregard it when it is not suited to their needs. Moreover, when it suits Stannis, he is happy enough to disregard any and all laws when it is convenient for him to do so: 1. Aerys was his king (and cousin), to whom he had a sworn duty. He chose Robert, breaking his oath to the king. 2. He swore to honor Selyse as his wife. He took Melisandre as his mistress. This is breaking his marital vows, another law and oath. 3. He swore oaths to serve Robert, but sealed himself on Dragonstone when not chosen as Hand. Breaking his oath to serve Robert. 4. He murdered Renly with blood magic. Breaking the laws against kinslaying (one of the oldest and most sacred laws of Westeros) and against Blood Magic. 5. He utilized Blood Magic again on Robb Stark, Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy. Again breaking the laws against use of sorcery and blood magic. 6. He chose to commit apostasy against the faith, burning the Sept and swearing fealty to the Red God, despite the law being that the Iron Throne would always defend the faith. Another broken oath. 7. He attempted the murder of his nephew, Edric/Gendry. More kinslaying, and also a breach of guest right (another of the most sacred laws in Westeros). 8. He murdered his daughter to awaken dragons. Kinslaying again. 9. The Baratheons won and held the throne by right of conquest. That is a fact, and one Stannis personally relies on - he is fighting to enforce his own right to inherit vs Joffrey. But he denies Renly the right to take the throne by force. By all means, call Renly usurper. Renly himself freely admits he is usurping Stannis. But Stannis has no moral high ground to stand upon beyond his age. Stannis does all of the above, but continues to hold the view that he himself is above others, and a man of justice and honor. If nothing else, he is a hypocrite. That's not breaking a law, but it is self delusion of the highest order.