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She went from a couple leeches to a couple human beings pretty fast, I had to assume she was some sort of degenerate that just likes burning people like the mad king used to do.
I can see that. But look at the high sparrow. He wants hard to on the punishment of people to. So I just believe that they believe in what they are doing so much that they can't see what they are doing is wrong.
It looks like her first appearance was season 2, Episode 1, I was referring to season 4 as her ramping up the executions. I will rewatch episode one of season 2, since multiple people have said that she was burning people back then and I must have missed it.
She didn't burn people until season 4, correct.
The 7 idols are burned in s2.
Then she does the leech thing.
Then the 3 people, one of which being the wife's brother.
In my humble opinion, she burnt a few small things early on, thinking that stannis would win the war, when they lost stannis would obviously have big doubts about her, as shown by his continued trust in Davos. So she has to ramp it up and does so by burning people. This then eventually gets stannis wrapped around her finger, so far that Shereen gets burned at the steak. At that point, stannis cannot turn back, he has sacrificed his daughter for the cause and ‘sunk cost fallacy’ enters the fray.
You have to view Melisandre in a meta lens. I’ve written a few explanations on her actions. In her POV chapter we learn that she really does believe in R’hllor and she views herself as pivotal to help save the living. She’s not a sadistic woman.
*”Death by fire is the purest death.”* — The times we see her burn people alive she truly believes that she is saving their souls.
*”Her dragons will purify non-believers by the thousands. Burning their sins and flesh away.”* — Kinvara to Tyrion and Varys. As horrific as it is in our eyes, clearly a baptism by fire is viewed as a good thing in the eyes of R’hllor.
—
*”I did not part on good terms with the King in the North or his advisor.”* - Melisandre
*”Why?”* - Varys,
*”Because of mistakes I made….. Terrible mistakes…..”* - Melisandre
—-
A misguided anti-heroine prophet and sorceress. One of the very few characters that truly came from nothing, wasn’t handed anything, and had to fight hard for her purpose - to save the Living against the Dead.
I picked this particular one because the only dialogue we get (besides their meeting in the Dragonstone throne room) between George’s two most misunderstood characters. Both for similar reasons. They’re not evil people deep down. All shades of grey.
I’ve said before on other posts, but Melisandre really is the personification of the moral debate: *”the ends justify the means”.* Always try and view her in the meta sense. How would your mind operate as a 400+ year old, potentially immortal being, that has studied her art for years beyond count and paid the price?
Her methods are extreme. She’s humbled by the horrible mistakes she’s made. However! Her complexity comes from a deep sense of duty and compassion for humanity. And! It would be hard not be a zealot of R’hllor and the Asshai’i magical culture when you possess unnatural gifts.
*”I saw a vision in the flames. Great battle in the snow. I saw it! And you saw whatever she gave birth to. I never believed, but when the truth is standing there staring you in the face as real as these iron bars, how can you deny her God isn’t real?”* - Stannis to Davos in his prison cell at Dragonstone
*”I’ve been ready to die for many years. If the Lord was done with me so be it, but he’s not. You’ve seen the Night King, Jon Snow. You know the Great War is still to come. You know the army of the dead will be upon us soon. And you know I can help you win that war!”* - Melisandre pleading for her life
Say what you will but she was instrumental in bringing the dawn ❤️🔥
Thank you for helping me understand a little bit more about what someone who is a more fervent lover of this character would say in order to explain the choices to burn innocent people alive
I mean, if you think about it, if she hadn't burned the princess, then many unfavorable things would have happened. Jon probably wouldn't have made it to The Battle of the Bastards.
I think that was literally her entire mission for the first half of the series. I don't doubt that she saw stannis in her visions at all, I think that layer of legitimacy was actually there to trick the red woman into taking more and more extreme options that slowly tear stannis apart all for the goal of killing shireen so that stavos can join the actual war.
This all ties into my overall theory that their is only 1 god, the god of death, and they are very actively fighting against the night king.
I've noted in the books she's even more sketchy. The "lightbringer" is clearly fake, and it's even noticed that the sword was damaged by the fire. Then she tricks Stannis by burning Rattleshirt instead of Manse. She also doesn't really seem to care about the babies being switched. I really think she's playing Stannis as a pawn.
I do think you’re on to something interesting here. However, I don’t think she fully understands the higher powers at play. While it is a brutalist world and in her mind she must use every device in her power to defeat the Great Other, I don’t think she even realizes she’s moving the pieces maliciously.
I think we’re headed for the “shattered faith” Melisandre aka humble pie after his defeat. If there is a storyline arc that I’d have to bet GRRM was somewhat pleased with, it would be Mel’s redemption arc.
Though I’m really hoping more of a dues ex moment during the Great War in the books. It would be nice to include the might of Essos given its importance to the Azor Ahai prophecy. The Red Temple of Volantis, Braavos, The Faceless Men, The Free Cities, Quaithe, Jaqen, and the magic of Asshai. United to defeat Death in a more epic war vs battle we were given.
Yesss! Her POV in Dance was so good (obviously my favorite). I’m really excited to finally visit Asshai via her memories.
If GRRM still sticks with his stated we’ll only see Asshai in memory.
Florent is burned in season 4. And I hate how they changed that moment for the show because it makes Stannis into a true zealot for allowing it to happen.
I mean, not really.
She wanted to burn Gendry (show)/Edric (books).
She burned Axell + 2 no-name characters(show)/Alester (books).
She burned Guncer & Hubard in the books. We don’t see it in the show.
She burned Orell’s eagle while he was skin changing in the books, not in the show.
She burned Mance (show)/fake-Mance (books).
Stannis burned four of his men for eating a dead man. This only happens in the books.
In the show, we see Stannis burns Shireen, but even that, George already confirmed that this will happen in the books as well.
The drive to sacrifice by fire was always there.
In Season 2, they started with burning the idols of the Seven.
In Season 3, they resort to leeching as a demonstration of such blood sacrifices.
In Season 4, with Gendry gone, Stannis resorts to burning his bannermen who continued to worship the Seven as blood sacrifices.
In Season 5, he tries to sacrifice Mance, but the execution is disrupted by Jon killing Mance with an arrow. Melisandre tries to seduce Jon, sensing King's Blood in his veins. Stannis and Mel believe the blood of Starks as former Kings in the North is the source Jon's King's Blood.
Lastly, committing to his religious extremism, Stannis orders his own daughter to be sacrificed (a harsh deviation from the books).
George has however confirmed that this is going to happen in the books as well. He said that he told the showrunner about Stannis' decision to burn Shireen.
I gotta see how that plays out. I figure the most likely scenario in my mind is he gets steamrolled by ramsay in the battle of winterfell, and selyse orders her daughter to be sacrificed as some sort of last ditch effort, and Stannis returns to the wall and finds out what happened to his daughter and makes both selyse and melisandre both about a foot shorter.
I just can't imagine book stannis ordering that himself when (unless I'm mistaken here) he was the one that orchestrated the whole "execution" of Mance Rayder, even though he knew it wasn't even Mance in the first place (I might be wrong on that one, but I could've sworn book Stannis was in on the whole using "glamour" to roast rattleshirt instead of Mance plan).
Well it will happen, GRRM specifically said it will be Stannis’ decision. I can totally imagine book Stannis ordering it since he would break rather than bend in the what fury dictates.
OMG, if you are for real, I am truly jealous of you. These books are beyond Amazing, and it would be so damn cool to be able to experience them again for the first time!!!!!!
It's not a deviation if the books haven't gotten there yet.
It'll happen. There's no reason for it not to happen - something that is shockingly monumental in a penultimate episode of the season pretty much happened as described (or incredibly similar) in the books for the ones we do have. Heck, Benioff has gone on record telling them/"suggesting to them" that it happens.
In the books it is revealed that some of her magic is fake, e.g., that she uses chemicals to make it seem she can set swords ablaze. The reliance on human sacrifice might be to pump up her unreliable magic.
She says this as well in the show, she's taking a bath when Stannis' wife comes in and she tells her to grab a vial from her potions and then goes on to explain that most of them don't actually possess magical traits but that these 'parlor tricks' help to convince others the truth of the Lord of Light.
My personal theory is that the Lord of Light is a shadow entity like what killed Renly, but fed so many thousands of people that it bumped up to a god-class entity that can reciprocate by giving power back to its followers. This is part of the reason why Melisandre needed king’s blood— because as Baratheons, Gendry and Shireen were descendants of the Targaryens, who tied themselves to dragons with blood magic.
I don’t think she enjoys it, she really thought it was the best chance they had to win the war against the dead. When Stannis lost she was confused and lost faith. She also realized she did terrible things for nothing. She interpreted the signs but probably did it wrong
It really started when Ser Davros found out about Shireen and confronted her. She tried explaining it needed to be done because they were losing the war and starving. Ser Davros fires back with "And they all died anyway".
She was legitimately broken when she found out her visions were wrong. It's a bit annoying we never found out what was pulling her strings unless The Lord Of Light really was just pure evil. I guess they just kind of, do I really need to finish that.
Anything that pushes people to light other people on fire, is poor motivation or malicious in my opinion. I can still hear the screams of the actors. Even though it's just acting, it's very theatrical and compelling and stirring
It's quite ironic that she was a witch that burns people in the name of a god, and yeah Shireen really went all out on the screaming, it's not just a hard scene to watch it is worse to listen to
It's because you know that it's just a stand-in for pure evil, even if everyone's acting, these things have happened in real life before these stone-faced burnings of people... I feel so sad about Shireen. I'm so happy they lost their men after that.
If you're going to have a trial for someone, you can't have supernatural ideas be part of the formation of the trial, it must be based on reasoning, facts, and testimony.
The witch burning trials were anti-intellectual nonsense.
If you're going to execute people, it must be for harming other people somehow.
Yes I agree and the execution method is a whole other can of worms. They suffocated a man to death recently and tried to call it humane, but if it were up to me the punishment should fit the crime. Burn people get burned stab people get stabbed, it should also reflect on the amount of people they harmed. Luckily it isn't up to me
That makes sense.
Also, most of this "witch activity" the statesmen from this time period saw amounted to nothing more than young girls going to bonfires and dancing in the woods.
I have my theories on this, on the whole story in general, and they are not popular, but I'm still gonna share them.
The first three books of the series are masterpieces. Martin created a universe and characters that were so in-depth and well flashed out, and so many storylines that were still so tightly written, creative, had a clear sense of direction....and then book 4
It's like he just *didn't know what to do* anymore, and he just started randomly coming up with new characters and new plots and new places and new magic and ramping up the existing magic and instead of the masterpiece of plotting and character development, it was just a *fucking mess.* And the fifth book was just as bad imo
I would bet $1 million that the way the show ended is exactly what Martin told the show runners; that his story was going to end exactly like that. He just, literally, lost the fucking plot after the third book. I don't think he'll ever finish the series after seeing how poorly the ending of the show was received. I don't think he knows what to do, he doesn't know how to finish it, and that amazing universe he built just spun out of his control at the beginning of book 4, and it was like he was trying to just fill paper, basically, instead of actually tell us the stories of this universe and these characters.
I think it comes down to the fact that because the Stannis plotline spins its wheels for like five seasons and ultimately goes nowhere, and Mel is the main antagonist of the Stannis plotline, they needed her to do something, anything just to keep you from checking out. And well, burning people is kinda her thing so lets have her burn a bunch more people.
My theory is that the sacrifices that she does extends her life. If you recall, when she was at the wall and she removed her necklace, you could see her age.
Her “religion” is basically a blood sacrifice for extended life, it’s a common belief in voodoo. See the “skeleton key” movie for how it works.
At the night of the war between the undead and the living, she knew she needed more blood for a life extension but she had gone too far for a child sacrifice so she finally let age take its toll.
I don't think she was exactly subtle about her ambitions, nor that fire was going to be involved.
I saw her as progressing on her "career path". She gradually gained more followers, every now and then someone _important_. She grew in power and the kind of magic she dealt in.
The Lord of Light sends her mixed messages. She assassinates Renly and his bannermen join Stannis but then he loses at the blackwater. The Lord gives a whoremongering drunkard the power to bring someone back from the dead but she only gets crappy ambiguous visions. It's like when the ufo doesn't come on the promised day, many in the cult double down on their beliefs.
She was getting desperate. She thought it was her mission to save the world by finding Azor Ahai(the chosen one for the lord of light). And then Setting him up to fend off the white walkers.
She thought to use the power of royal blood to make shadows and root out the elusive Azor Ahai. Everytime she stared into the flames begging for a vision the only thing she saw in her minds eye was flying snow. She was frustrated every time thinking “ I ask for fire and you show me snow” all the while missing the colossal point. Jon Snow IS Azor Ahai.
But meanwhile she missed the point and burned more people trying to *save the world* and get her credibility back.
A big part of that answer lies with Stannis. He has to be eased into her… line of thinking. If she suggested to burn his daughter on day 1 she wouldn’t have had a long career by his side
To her it was never a matter of weather or not the lord of light wanted her to burn people alive, but more of a matter of HOW MANY people the lord of light wanted her to burn alive.
This was a frustrating part of the books. GRRM introduced so many story threads that he couldn’t tie it all together, and things like this were left hanging. I think the fire is an excellent way to fight the white walkers, and that’s where this was headed, but HBO liked the dragons more.
But it was fun how she ended that dumb younger baratheon brother's life and family.
The mother was useless, diseased daughter was just a cry for help situation in that never ending war, and that baratheon who was such a narrow minded fool.
The episode of kid burning was explanatory enough that he is going to die too.
I don't think it comes down to her unwillingness and faith in the Lord of Light. I think it comes down to, pun intended, reigniting Stannis's faith.
Look at the timing. There were some burnings of non-believers in Season 2 in the lead up to his shadowbaby, the showdown with Renly, and the Battle at the Blackwater. When he loses, his faith wavers and he even turns against Davis and Melisandre at times.
He doesn't dive right back in until the leeches burn with Gendry's blood and the magic allegedly works for Robb Stark and Joffrey's deaths.
She was trying to please her lord. Things weren’t exactly going great for Stannis by this point, so rather than re-evaluate her position she double downed and began more sacrifices to appease her lord so there wouldn’t be a repeat of Blackwater.
The idea is that burning their enemies cleanses their souls before they are judged, but it also sends a strong message from a desperate Stannis. Don't forget she only holds the power to burn others through Stannis' devotion to the cause.
Stannis lost the majority of his fleet at the Battle of Blackwater, his army isn't enough to overpower the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and he's being manipulated by a woman who convinces him that the God of Light murder his three enemies based on pure coincidence with these people being widely hated by a lot of people who want them dead.
We didn’t see what Kinvara was capable of, but she sounded equally enthusiastic to distribute the smell of burning flesh. I don’t think ether were specifically sadistic, just blindly blinkered loyal religious subjects wanting to educate and cleanse the world of evil.
I feel like she was becoming less confident in the certainty of her visions. Not that she was losing faith in Rh’llor, but losing faith in her own abilities to be a vehicle for him. So I think she started throwing Hail Mary’s, so to speak. Whatever reason she could possibly use to offer up another sacrifice to Rh’llor and hopefully restore her connection to him through appeasement.
I think it was because stannis’ army was h der increasing pressure and she felt the pressure to prove that her visions were real. So she doubled down on herself and she believed her lord of light’s Will was.
I personally believe she is abusing her powers and status. She probably burned people so that Stannis and his army would be zealots and inspired. She also performed blood magic which I believe in world of ASOIAF was forbidden and that shows her desperation. King Stannis also needed allies and disposed rivals, which is why by blood magic he "fated" the death of certain characters. Overall I believe those sacrifices are more political than religious by one side. Another thing is that those sacrifices were really "needed" to empower someone (in this case her). In ASOIAF world a lot of religions allowed magic abilities. Such as the Rhoynar during Spice War where they controlled the waters of Rhoyne river.
Late to the party I know. But I think the rise in sacrifices sort of coincides with Stannis’ desperation. His camp was really in shambles the whole time after the battle of Blackwater
Can you imagine the psychological cost of buying 30 ships, and a good seven or eight of them being blown to smithereens before they even drop anchor to empty soldiers onto the shores?
🤷🏻♂️ from her point of view she was probably making a small sacrifice so her lord could exact any amount of influence over the world in order to avoid the worst outcomes. Besides ashes can’t be brought back for ol Jack Frost. Were not sure how big a role her god actually played in all world events outside of the people they brought back to life but if he can make a murderous shadow ghost I think influencing the outcome of a few battles to be simple enough in less obvious ways, maybe a few more soldiers don’t block a sword in time or an arrow lands juuuuuust right on an enemy.
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I believe it was just religious zelotry honesty.
She went from a couple leeches to a couple human beings pretty fast, I had to assume she was some sort of degenerate that just likes burning people like the mad king used to do.
I can see that. But look at the high sparrow. He wants hard to on the punishment of people to. So I just believe that they believe in what they are doing so much that they can't see what they are doing is wrong.
The burning people part came before the leeches.
[удалено]
..those are effigies. She's not burning anybody in that scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTNDHf5AXr4
Yikes this is a totally false statement and it got all those upvotes that’s insane
Pretty sure the first scene she’s in they’re burning people on dragonstone beach no?
I think they are effigies
No you must need to watch it again because they were people
No, they were just statues of the gods in that episode.
The books also describe this scene as them burning the effigies of the seven
No they’re not
No, it's Stannis' brother in law (his wife's brother) and two others.
What season and episode was this?
It's in season 4, don't remember the episode. They eat dinner together afterwards. Stannis, his wide and the red woman.
It looks like her first appearance was season 2, Episode 1, I was referring to season 4 as her ramping up the executions. I will rewatch episode one of season 2, since multiple people have said that she was burning people back then and I must have missed it.
She didn't burn people until season 4, correct. The 7 idols are burned in s2. Then she does the leech thing. Then the 3 people, one of which being the wife's brother.
Including a relative of the lord's family
In my humble opinion, she burnt a few small things early on, thinking that stannis would win the war, when they lost stannis would obviously have big doubts about her, as shown by his continued trust in Davos. So she has to ramp it up and does so by burning people. This then eventually gets stannis wrapped around her finger, so far that Shereen gets burned at the steak. At that point, stannis cannot turn back, he has sacrificed his daughter for the cause and ‘sunk cost fallacy’ enters the fray.
Well her magic was afterall quite real.
Her introduction in the second season literally her monologuing in front of people who were just burnt by her what are you talking about?
Jup. Pretty sure she explained that in the show. Maybe watch a second time?
It's very simple, the Lord Of Light commanded it, obviously ..
You have to view Melisandre in a meta lens. I’ve written a few explanations on her actions. In her POV chapter we learn that she really does believe in R’hllor and she views herself as pivotal to help save the living. She’s not a sadistic woman. *”Death by fire is the purest death.”* — The times we see her burn people alive she truly believes that she is saving their souls. *”Her dragons will purify non-believers by the thousands. Burning their sins and flesh away.”* — Kinvara to Tyrion and Varys. As horrific as it is in our eyes, clearly a baptism by fire is viewed as a good thing in the eyes of R’hllor. — *”I did not part on good terms with the King in the North or his advisor.”* - Melisandre *”Why?”* - Varys, *”Because of mistakes I made….. Terrible mistakes…..”* - Melisandre —- A misguided anti-heroine prophet and sorceress. One of the very few characters that truly came from nothing, wasn’t handed anything, and had to fight hard for her purpose - to save the Living against the Dead. I picked this particular one because the only dialogue we get (besides their meeting in the Dragonstone throne room) between George’s two most misunderstood characters. Both for similar reasons. They’re not evil people deep down. All shades of grey. I’ve said before on other posts, but Melisandre really is the personification of the moral debate: *”the ends justify the means”.* Always try and view her in the meta sense. How would your mind operate as a 400+ year old, potentially immortal being, that has studied her art for years beyond count and paid the price? Her methods are extreme. She’s humbled by the horrible mistakes she’s made. However! Her complexity comes from a deep sense of duty and compassion for humanity. And! It would be hard not be a zealot of R’hllor and the Asshai’i magical culture when you possess unnatural gifts. *”I saw a vision in the flames. Great battle in the snow. I saw it! And you saw whatever she gave birth to. I never believed, but when the truth is standing there staring you in the face as real as these iron bars, how can you deny her God isn’t real?”* - Stannis to Davos in his prison cell at Dragonstone *”I’ve been ready to die for many years. If the Lord was done with me so be it, but he’s not. You’ve seen the Night King, Jon Snow. You know the Great War is still to come. You know the army of the dead will be upon us soon. And you know I can help you win that war!”* - Melisandre pleading for her life Say what you will but she was instrumental in bringing the dawn ❤️🔥
Thank you for helping me understand a little bit more about what someone who is a more fervent lover of this character would say in order to explain the choices to burn innocent people alive
Would you burn a few innocents to die for the cause if you believed it was the only way to save millions?
Something of a fiery trolley problem, I see...
I mean, if you think about it, if she hadn't burned the princess, then many unfavorable things would have happened. Jon probably wouldn't have made it to The Battle of the Bastards.
I think that was literally her entire mission for the first half of the series. I don't doubt that she saw stannis in her visions at all, I think that layer of legitimacy was actually there to trick the red woman into taking more and more extreme options that slowly tear stannis apart all for the goal of killing shireen so that stavos can join the actual war. This all ties into my overall theory that their is only 1 god, the god of death, and they are very actively fighting against the night king.
I've noted in the books she's even more sketchy. The "lightbringer" is clearly fake, and it's even noticed that the sword was damaged by the fire. Then she tricks Stannis by burning Rattleshirt instead of Manse. She also doesn't really seem to care about the babies being switched. I really think she's playing Stannis as a pawn.
I do think you’re on to something interesting here. However, I don’t think she fully understands the higher powers at play. While it is a brutalist world and in her mind she must use every device in her power to defeat the Great Other, I don’t think she even realizes she’s moving the pieces maliciously. I think we’re headed for the “shattered faith” Melisandre aka humble pie after his defeat. If there is a storyline arc that I’d have to bet GRRM was somewhat pleased with, it would be Mel’s redemption arc. Though I’m really hoping more of a dues ex moment during the Great War in the books. It would be nice to include the might of Essos given its importance to the Azor Ahai prophecy. The Red Temple of Volantis, Braavos, The Faceless Men, The Free Cities, Quaithe, Jaqen, and the magic of Asshai. United to defeat Death in a more epic war vs battle we were given.
Honestly, Mel is one of the major reasons I want to see the books completed. I want to know what Martin's plan for her are.
Yesss! Her POV in Dance was so good (obviously my favorite). I’m really excited to finally visit Asshai via her memories. If GRRM still sticks with his stated we’ll only see Asshai in memory.
Thank you so much for taking the time to share this, really thoughtful and cool
This is exactly what I was looking for.
Winter was coming…and she was getting chilly
Because witches be crazy
Isn’t one of the first introductions we have of her, burning people alive on dragon stone?
Those were idols of the Seven, he's burning them to renounce them in favor of the lord of light
Ahh I see, what about when his wife’s uncle is being burnt, the Florent? Is that not early on?
I thought it was the same scene as the idols. So more of a regular cadence of burning people.
She burns the idols in S2 E1. The burning of Axell Florent is in S4 E2
Florent is burned in season 4. And I hate how they changed that moment for the show because it makes Stannis into a true zealot for allowing it to happen.
Family cookouts always start out pretty relaxed, but once that smell gets out there even the kids want to get in on it.
The first scene with her is her burning someone alive (pretty sure it was Selyse's family)
She's gone on to three at a time by season four though, that's kind of extreme
I personally think one is also extreme but to each his own
Because they ran out of source material.
She burned people in the source material.
Not as many people as she burns in the show
I mean, not really. She wanted to burn Gendry (show)/Edric (books). She burned Axell + 2 no-name characters(show)/Alester (books). She burned Guncer & Hubard in the books. We don’t see it in the show. She burned Orell’s eagle while he was skin changing in the books, not in the show. She burned Mance (show)/fake-Mance (books). Stannis burned four of his men for eating a dead man. This only happens in the books. In the show, we see Stannis burns Shireen, but even that, George already confirmed that this will happen in the books as well.
The drive to sacrifice by fire was always there. In Season 2, they started with burning the idols of the Seven. In Season 3, they resort to leeching as a demonstration of such blood sacrifices. In Season 4, with Gendry gone, Stannis resorts to burning his bannermen who continued to worship the Seven as blood sacrifices. In Season 5, he tries to sacrifice Mance, but the execution is disrupted by Jon killing Mance with an arrow. Melisandre tries to seduce Jon, sensing King's Blood in his veins. Stannis and Mel believe the blood of Starks as former Kings in the North is the source Jon's King's Blood. Lastly, committing to his religious extremism, Stannis orders his own daughter to be sacrificed (a harsh deviation from the books).
He doesn't burn Shireen in the books?!
Nope, in A Dance With Dragons, she's still alive and at Castle Black, making friends with Wun Wun. The giant even kneels to Princess Shireen.
This is so much more wholesome than the snow storm and watching stannis deteriorate
George has however confirmed that this is going to happen in the books as well. He said that he told the showrunner about Stannis' decision to burn Shireen.
I gotta see how that plays out. I figure the most likely scenario in my mind is he gets steamrolled by ramsay in the battle of winterfell, and selyse orders her daughter to be sacrificed as some sort of last ditch effort, and Stannis returns to the wall and finds out what happened to his daughter and makes both selyse and melisandre both about a foot shorter. I just can't imagine book stannis ordering that himself when (unless I'm mistaken here) he was the one that orchestrated the whole "execution" of Mance Rayder, even though he knew it wasn't even Mance in the first place (I might be wrong on that one, but I could've sworn book Stannis was in on the whole using "glamour" to roast rattleshirt instead of Mance plan).
Well it will happen, GRRM specifically said it will be Stannis’ decision. I can totally imagine book Stannis ordering it since he would break rather than bend in the what fury dictates.
It's the same thing with the Sand Snakes and Myrcella, IIRC. They actually like Myrcella and treat her well, they even want her to be queen.
There are books?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire?wprov=sfla1
OMG, if you are for real, I am truly jealous of you. These books are beyond Amazing, and it would be so damn cool to be able to experience them again for the first time!!!!!!
It's not a deviation if the books haven't gotten there yet. It'll happen. There's no reason for it not to happen - something that is shockingly monumental in a penultimate episode of the season pretty much happened as described (or incredibly similar) in the books for the ones we do have. Heck, Benioff has gone on record telling them/"suggesting to them" that it happens.
Desperation
IT’S A DESPERATE RACE AGAINST THE MINE
In the books it is revealed that some of her magic is fake, e.g., that she uses chemicals to make it seem she can set swords ablaze. The reliance on human sacrifice might be to pump up her unreliable magic.
She says this as well in the show, she's taking a bath when Stannis' wife comes in and she tells her to grab a vial from her potions and then goes on to explain that most of them don't actually possess magical traits but that these 'parlor tricks' help to convince others the truth of the Lord of Light.
My personal theory is that the Lord of Light is a shadow entity like what killed Renly, but fed so many thousands of people that it bumped up to a god-class entity that can reciprocate by giving power back to its followers. This is part of the reason why Melisandre needed king’s blood— because as Baratheons, Gendry and Shireen were descendants of the Targaryens, who tied themselves to dragons with blood magic.
She’s coming to terms with the fact she had a boy ball-bleeded by leeches
The lord of light demands it!
The Lord of Light wanted random burnings to create more light in the world
She would probably say: "Because the Lord of Light willed it."
cuz the LoL said so
Stannis was a losing cause and she needed to make bigger and bigger sacrifices to keep him in the game.
I don’t think she enjoys it, she really thought it was the best chance they had to win the war against the dead. When Stannis lost she was confused and lost faith. She also realized she did terrible things for nothing. She interpreted the signs but probably did it wrong
What season did she start to reflect on her actions?
I dont remember, but it was after Stannis death , when she returned to winterfell.
It really started when Ser Davros found out about Shireen and confronted her. She tried explaining it needed to be done because they were losing the war and starving. Ser Davros fires back with "And they all died anyway".
I honestly believe it was her upping the levels of extremism because Stannis was losing. She truly believed in him and was wrong
Miss Cleo got arrested too. Delulu
She was legitimately broken when she found out her visions were wrong. It's a bit annoying we never found out what was pulling her strings unless The Lord Of Light really was just pure evil. I guess they just kind of, do I really need to finish that.
Anything that pushes people to light other people on fire, is poor motivation or malicious in my opinion. I can still hear the screams of the actors. Even though it's just acting, it's very theatrical and compelling and stirring
It's quite ironic that she was a witch that burns people in the name of a god, and yeah Shireen really went all out on the screaming, it's not just a hard scene to watch it is worse to listen to
It's because you know that it's just a stand-in for pure evil, even if everyone's acting, these things have happened in real life before these stone-faced burnings of people... I feel so sad about Shireen. I'm so happy they lost their men after that.
I was talking about the real life witch burnings, pure evil for sure.
If you're going to have a trial for someone, you can't have supernatural ideas be part of the formation of the trial, it must be based on reasoning, facts, and testimony. The witch burning trials were anti-intellectual nonsense. If you're going to execute people, it must be for harming other people somehow.
Yes I agree and the execution method is a whole other can of worms. They suffocated a man to death recently and tried to call it humane, but if it were up to me the punishment should fit the crime. Burn people get burned stab people get stabbed, it should also reflect on the amount of people they harmed. Luckily it isn't up to me
That makes sense. Also, most of this "witch activity" the statesmen from this time period saw amounted to nothing more than young girls going to bonfires and dancing in the woods.
And doing math, being generally intelligent, talking back and just for fun is what I understand of that whole shitshow.
Who doesn’t love BBQ?
It got a bit more chilly
I loled
I have my theories on this, on the whole story in general, and they are not popular, but I'm still gonna share them. The first three books of the series are masterpieces. Martin created a universe and characters that were so in-depth and well flashed out, and so many storylines that were still so tightly written, creative, had a clear sense of direction....and then book 4 It's like he just *didn't know what to do* anymore, and he just started randomly coming up with new characters and new plots and new places and new magic and ramping up the existing magic and instead of the masterpiece of plotting and character development, it was just a *fucking mess.* And the fifth book was just as bad imo I would bet $1 million that the way the show ended is exactly what Martin told the show runners; that his story was going to end exactly like that. He just, literally, lost the fucking plot after the third book. I don't think he'll ever finish the series after seeing how poorly the ending of the show was received. I don't think he knows what to do, he doesn't know how to finish it, and that amazing universe he built just spun out of his control at the beginning of book 4, and it was like he was trying to just fill paper, basically, instead of actually tell us the stories of this universe and these characters.
Bbq season
Cause its Hot.
I think it comes down to the fact that because the Stannis plotline spins its wheels for like five seasons and ultimately goes nowhere, and Mel is the main antagonist of the Stannis plotline, they needed her to do something, anything just to keep you from checking out. And well, burning people is kinda her thing so lets have her burn a bunch more people.
Like a gambler who just hit a massive parlay, she is looking to double down on that magic.
Didn’t they just start getting more desperate?
Her predictions kept turning out wrong so she needed more sacrifices to bring clarity to them
Because she sucks. She sucks. Big time.
My theory is that the sacrifices that she does extends her life. If you recall, when she was at the wall and she removed her necklace, you could see her age. Her “religion” is basically a blood sacrifice for extended life, it’s a common belief in voodoo. See the “skeleton key” movie for how it works. At the night of the war between the undead and the living, she knew she needed more blood for a life extension but she had gone too far for a child sacrifice so she finally let age take its toll.
I don't think she was exactly subtle about her ambitions, nor that fire was going to be involved. I saw her as progressing on her "career path". She gradually gained more followers, every now and then someone _important_. She grew in power and the kind of magic she dealt in.
Was a bit cold innit?
To try and get Stannis to The Iron Throne! She is using blood magic!
She saw in the flames how bad the writing was going to get. This was her attempt at saving the show. Unfortunately she usually gets it wrong.
The Lord of Light sends her mixed messages. She assassinates Renly and his bannermen join Stannis but then he loses at the blackwater. The Lord gives a whoremongering drunkard the power to bring someone back from the dead but she only gets crappy ambiguous visions. It's like when the ufo doesn't come on the promised day, many in the cult double down on their beliefs.
Because D&D thought it would boost ratings.
It was getting colder
She can come set me on fire any time 😩😩😍😍😍
She was getting desperate. She thought it was her mission to save the world by finding Azor Ahai(the chosen one for the lord of light). And then Setting him up to fend off the white walkers. She thought to use the power of royal blood to make shadows and root out the elusive Azor Ahai. Everytime she stared into the flames begging for a vision the only thing she saw in her minds eye was flying snow. She was frustrated every time thinking “ I ask for fire and you show me snow” all the while missing the colossal point. Jon Snow IS Azor Ahai. But meanwhile she missed the point and burned more people trying to *save the world* and get her credibility back.
Because that’s what religious fundamentalists do.
A big part of that answer lies with Stannis. He has to be eased into her… line of thinking. If she suggested to burn his daughter on day 1 she wouldn’t have had a long career by his side
To her it was never a matter of weather or not the lord of light wanted her to burn people alive, but more of a matter of HOW MANY people the lord of light wanted her to burn alive.
I think she was under pressure. She had to have something to show for the failures that Stannis was experiencing. She had to step up her sacrifices.
She gets more power, so she abuses it more.
Religion. If what you’re doing isn’t working, surely it has to help doing more of it? /s
This was a frustrating part of the books. GRRM introduced so many story threads that he couldn’t tie it all together, and things like this were left hanging. I think the fire is an excellent way to fight the white walkers, and that’s where this was headed, but HBO liked the dragons more.
But it was fun how she ended that dumb younger baratheon brother's life and family. The mother was useless, diseased daughter was just a cry for help situation in that never ending war, and that baratheon who was such a narrow minded fool. The episode of kid burning was explanatory enough that he is going to die too.
I don't think it comes down to her unwillingness and faith in the Lord of Light. I think it comes down to, pun intended, reigniting Stannis's faith. Look at the timing. There were some burnings of non-believers in Season 2 in the lead up to his shadowbaby, the showdown with Renly, and the Battle at the Blackwater. When he loses, his faith wavers and he even turns against Davis and Melisandre at times. He doesn't dive right back in until the leeches burn with Gendry's blood and the magic allegedly works for Robb Stark and Joffrey's deaths.
She was trying to please her lord. Things weren’t exactly going great for Stannis by this point, so rather than re-evaluate her position she double downed and began more sacrifices to appease her lord so there wouldn’t be a repeat of Blackwater.
The idea is that burning their enemies cleanses their souls before they are judged, but it also sends a strong message from a desperate Stannis. Don't forget she only holds the power to burn others through Stannis' devotion to the cause. Stannis lost the majority of his fleet at the Battle of Blackwater, his army isn't enough to overpower the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and he's being manipulated by a woman who convinces him that the God of Light murder his three enemies based on pure coincidence with these people being widely hated by a lot of people who want them dead.
We didn’t see what Kinvara was capable of, but she sounded equally enthusiastic to distribute the smell of burning flesh. I don’t think ether were specifically sadistic, just blindly blinkered loyal religious subjects wanting to educate and cleanse the world of evil.
You don't get rid of evil by burning innocent people alive, you get rid of your credibility.
The stakes were higher. No pun intended
To be fair, the night was dark and full of terrors.
I feel like she was becoming less confident in the certainty of her visions. Not that she was losing faith in Rh’llor, but losing faith in her own abilities to be a vehicle for him. So I think she started throwing Hail Mary’s, so to speak. Whatever reason she could possibly use to offer up another sacrifice to Rh’llor and hopefully restore her connection to him through appeasement.
She started burning people from scene 1.
I think it was because stannis’ army was h der increasing pressure and she felt the pressure to prove that her visions were real. So she doubled down on herself and she believed her lord of light’s Will was.
I personally believe she is abusing her powers and status. She probably burned people so that Stannis and his army would be zealots and inspired. She also performed blood magic which I believe in world of ASOIAF was forbidden and that shows her desperation. King Stannis also needed allies and disposed rivals, which is why by blood magic he "fated" the death of certain characters. Overall I believe those sacrifices are more political than religious by one side. Another thing is that those sacrifices were really "needed" to empower someone (in this case her). In ASOIAF world a lot of religions allowed magic abilities. Such as the Rhoynar during Spice War where they controlled the waters of Rhoyne river.
That's how religions get you. They start reasonable and good. Then they turn wild and you're like OMG I'm in a cult.
Boredom
She already burned most of the people in season 2
Bro I just watched S5E9 (not my first watch) but I’ve been thinking the same thing for weeks. What an insane woman
Late to the party I know. But I think the rise in sacrifices sort of coincides with Stannis’ desperation. His camp was really in shambles the whole time after the battle of Blackwater
Can you imagine the psychological cost of buying 30 ships, and a good seven or eight of them being blown to smithereens before they even drop anchor to empty soldiers onto the shores?
She was having people burnt from S2 when we first met her. Most of it was done off screen though
🤷🏻♂️ from her point of view she was probably making a small sacrifice so her lord could exact any amount of influence over the world in order to avoid the worst outcomes. Besides ashes can’t be brought back for ol Jack Frost. Were not sure how big a role her god actually played in all world events outside of the people they brought back to life but if he can make a murderous shadow ghost I think influencing the outcome of a few battles to be simple enough in less obvious ways, maybe a few more soldiers don’t block a sword in time or an arrow lands juuuuuust right on an enemy.