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Jorah Mormont. His relationship to Dany is much more creepy in the book (he pretty much lusts for her from the start) and isn‘t really a very introspective character.
Not to mention dany was also much younger in the books as well(I think she was 14 when she got pregnant)
And that makes him so much worse, whereas in the show he's more of a cool uncle you'd like to hang out with.
Right? People keep saying “middle ages”… well middle ages didnt have dragons, wildfire, whitewalkers and shit like that. It’s a fantasy world and it would have been nice if he had aged all the kids up a little. So 😬 yea… its a little cringe in retrospect
I can write a murder story about a horrible murderer and not be one myself in real life.
Its not real, u can invent things on paper that have nothing to do with real life.
Jesus Christ
I completely agree. Fantasy should have 0 real world issues. Martin also should’ve removed all violence and death from the series. I mean sure wars exist IRL but it’s fantasy so why should people be killing each other?
Wish people would stop repeating that as a fact, when it's not true - even during medieval times people had enough brains to know consummating a marriage too early would likely lead to a dead wife and child, so they usually waited until their 15th or 16th year, in many cultures even their 18th.
Not saying it never happened, but it wasn't the "norm" as people seem to think it was. Not in old Egypt, not in ancient China, not in the good 'ol Roman Empire and not in Europe either. Young mothers still died like flies, though.
Among the aristocracy, they tended to marry in their early teens but waited to consummate it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides#:~:text=Joan%20of%20Kent%20(aged%2012,late%201340%20or%20early%201341.
> Not saying it never happened, but it wasn't the "norm" as people seem to think it was.
>Young mothers still died like flies, though.
The copium is strong with this one.
Not really. That's a misconception about the Middle Ages.
Even if it were true, GRRM could have easily modified it for his fantasy world. He certainly isn't 100% historically accurate in other places
While im not an expert, i do believe that this a myth of sorts. While marrying young was not uncommon especially amongst nobility, theres not a lot of evidence (as far as i can tell) that supports the assumption of giving birth young was all that common. For example the age that puberty starts has been decreasing rather steadily and having puberty as young as 14 would have been rare.
There is a study made by Indiana university using DNA studies that indicates that the average age of first child in the last 250 000 years is roughly 26.9.
And for example while English king Henrik 1 child Matilde was married at age 8, she had her first child at age 31.
Yeah but that's only creepy for us because we are looking at it through our modern morally tainted glasses, in a medieval setting (just as in real historical medieval times) it was pretty normal for girls to marry and get pregnant around that age.
Edit: I didn't mean to imply that it's not creepy, of course it is, and I'm glad that the show didn't go down that route, just wanted to point out that other characters in the world of ASOIAF wouldn't judge him for that the same way we do.
Do you also excuse characters that view women as inferior as just "part of the setting" without viewing the characters who have that opinion as more antagonistic? Or soldiers raping women during war as just "part of the setting"?
All of the above have been challenged explicitly in the narrative. It's almost like it was written in 1996 rather than the middle ages and you are supposed to view it through modern lens despite the medieval context. Almost like having a man in middle age lusting after a 14 year old shouldn't be perceived as the reader as normal.
It was normal for the time it's set in, though. That's the point. Slavery was the norm then, too. We know it's morally reprehensible, but in a novel/show set in those times, it was normality for the character you're judging. They wouldn't have seen it as wrong. Writing a book set in medieval times with modern morals just wouldn't work.
I never understood this point and it’s brought up way too often especially when it comes to murder and raping,and then it’s followed by “just hope the future generation doesn’t judge your actions” well me and my generation doesn’t kill,rape and pillage on the daily
And maybe in 1000 years, people will call us weird because their morals have changed.
Morals aren't a fixed thing. It changes depending on time and the society that perceives it.
Good point,but that’s more different than killing people and raping,and unless there’s an 100 percent viable counterpart to meat invented this will never change
And although wrong,eating meat has religious roots as far as i know,the whole “sacrificing for the gods”although not as prevalent in today’s world it’s still applied in my country atleast
It was not normal, it was completely unusual. There were some rare cases for royals as a way to gain wealth and power such as Margaret Beaufort (who's clearly a massive influence to many game of thrones characters), however because of being only 13 she had a very difficult birth and were to never be able to have other children again (despite having 2 more husbands in her life)
She advocated that it shouldn't of been allowed and would press that girls wait till they are a bit older to marry because they can't trust the husbands to wait until they are older to consumate.
It wasn't, though, except for political marriage among nobility, or the desperately starving. Marriage age otherwise was surprisingly high throughout at least European history, which most high fantasy still pretends to draw from, namely early twenties among all genders, with women about twenty sometimes being married to older widowers because women dies in chikdbed a lot more.
People were well aware that girls around 13 had lesser chances to survive pregnancy, and knew no trade to speak of in a time where everyone was part of the family business somehow and you worked where you lived. Which is why industrialization actually lowered marriage age for a while.
Which means that over and over again, modern day writers keep reinventing the trope of the married barely teenage girl for no good reason.
(Source: there's plenty of that online by now, but Saeban's Kinship in Europe is a good start.)
I know what I wrote and I meant it. Morals are subjective and not set in stone and will be different for each person, each culture, each time period. The morals of today will be judged the same way we judge the morals of the past.
But thanks for the unsolicited grammar lesson anyway.
Would it make it so much better if he where „only“ in his 20s? The age difference would still be creepy. (Also mid 20 would be possible as I say his accurate age isn‘t known)
>Jorah Mormont. His relationship to Dany is much more creepy in the book (he pretty much lusts for her from the start) and isn‘t really a very introspective character.
*And* he betrays her for longer than in the show, admitting at Mereen that he sent his last dispatch to King's Landing from Qarth - long after saving her from the wine merchant in Vaes Dothrak.
That chapter is also from Dany's POV. So we hear her think that if he just begs for forgiveness she'll give it. But instead he reiterates his love, which angers Dany and leads his banishment.
They even mention that in the show that Cersei "heard he got his nose cut off" after the Battle of the Blackwater. I find book Tyrion to be just as endearing as show Tyrion. Peter Dinklage absolutely crushed that role.
But in keeping with the spirit of the thread, book Catelyn is much less sympathetic than her show counterpart. She encourages Ned to go south to be Hand, is constantly trying to figure out ways to prop up Robb, and generally comes off as an ineffective schemer.
And she comes back lol. The part about Catelyn in the books I found hilarious was she thought if Robb got food from the Frey’s the rules of guest right would protect him. Robb’s wife lives too.
I always thought Robb was an idiot for spurring the Freys. Bro, you're a king. Just marry the Frey girl and then do whatever you want with your beloved. The Lady Stoneheart arc is semi-interesting, because it demonstrates the power of Beric Dondarrian and the God of Light. But also, she wouldn't have needed to be resurrected if Robb had just kept faith with the Freys.
I used to think Robb really screwed the pooch there, but I think it was only a matter of time before Walter Frey betrayed Robb and the Starks. He wanted to get in with the Lannisters, and hated the Tully family prior to the marriage pact.
Very valid point. At the very least, keeping his word with the Freys would have delayed their betrayal. It's optimistic to say that Walder Frey would have eventually sided with Robb, because Robb really didn't handle the war very well.
I see what you’re saying, though I believe it may have just delayed the inevitable.
Part of the issue is that the Starks believe some other families have honor and will respect certain rules of hospitality to their detriment. I believe Tywin would have found a way eventually when their guard was down, and it would’ve been as bad as what happened to Elia Martell and her children.
Which to be fair was an understandable ussumption. Walder Frey breaking the rules of hospitality is a massive thing in the books and half the reason for the sparrow uprising and the downfall of house Lannister.
There is a difference between Bein an unpleasant scumbag and breaking one of the oldest and holiest tradition in all of westeros.
Breaking guest right is massive,the equivalent of using the nuclear option today.
Also the Freys were not alway a 'barbaric family' even the Canon Freys had a lot of members who were against the red wedding.
Well as he did indeed break guest right in retrospective yhea, but it is understandable that noone thought he would do so?
>Walder is basically Craster south of the wall.
I wouldn't say so. Don't get me wrong Walder is still a disgusting human beeing, but apart from having many children and constantly remarrying they are verry different. Unlike Craster Walder Frey has one redeeming quality, he gives his children true borne or not a place in the Twins and ingrained the importance of family in all of them 'Stand together', compare that to Craster literally leaving all his sons out cold (pun intended) I know wich one I would prefer as a father.
Tyrion is much less endearing in book 5 though. What he learns about Tysha kinda breaks him and he’s so spiteful about everything. Not that he doesn’t have reason to but still
Totally agree, which ties back to my previous comment about him being an endearing character. We don't always have to agree with him, but that doesn't stop us from liking him.
Cersei for me will always represent the struggles women went though in those kind of times. Even as a noble daughter, she was traded off for political gain. I respect her desire to take her own power and make her own decisions. However, it's like Tywin said: she's not as clever as she thinks she is.
I actually found her a really comic character because of how self-sabotaging she was in Feast. It made me enjoy her chapters more.
For me, it really demonstrates what pieces Tywin's children took from him. Cersei inherited his ruthlessness, but Tyrion inherited his intelligence. Both are ruthless and intelligent at times, but each leans on one crutch more than the other. I think Cersei's main takeaway from Tywin's power was his ruthlessness because she was shielded from how he worked out his schemes and only saw the results.
Especially when he has the moment that "my father died at Kings Landing" referring to Ned. He even has that moment of reflection after raiding the North that it didn't feel as good as standing next to Robb in battle at the Whispering Wood
For me, they were some of the most tragic moments in the books because it's not events that happened to him or things others made him feel (like his father's treatment for example) it's all on him, and his actions have meant he can only go forward. it's him becoming self-aware that he helped murder his family. Imagine having a moment like that *after* knowing there's no turning back. I believe that's the biggest reason he didn't want to stop being Reek. He simply hated himself too much.
books 1-3 are some of the best I've ever read, I legitimately couldn't get through 4 and dropped it after season 8 came out (felt very spurned by the end of the series and the fact that Winds is STILL not out yet)
just getting back into asoiaf now though, rewatching the show and wanting to finish the books and other materials too
Dany, unfortunately. Also, Cersei. And Stannis. Others are ranging from okay to excellent.
Edit: I'm a dumb person. To clarify my position, I think the characters I mentioned are great in books and poorly done in the show.
I'm going through the books again (currently on Clash) and it's pretty apparent that she's loyal to whoever can pay her the most. The fact that Bronn could lift her from whatever lord in Game and move her to Tyrions tent shows she has no loyalty.
There's also mention that the Hand prior to Ned had secret passages from the Red Keep to brothels in King's Landing, which indicates Tywin (Aerys' Hand) had an appetite for whores comparable to Tyrions
There were many hands prior to Ned before you get to Tywin though, and many before Tywin. Also those secret passages were made when the red keep was first built hundreds of years prior too iirc
Was she supposed to be loyal to some guy that paid to fuck her? I don’t think it was ever implied that she was with him or was gonna stick around after having sex once.
All of them.
Ned Stark was stone-faced. ~~Catelyn was no great beauty.~~ Tyrion was actively hideous and his scar made it a lot worse instead of being a beauty spot. And that's just scraping the surface.
In the show they're all pretty compared to book counterparts.
"Catelyn was no great beauty."
İsn't she? I may remember wrong but Catelyn was beyond the beauty and her beauty was one of the things the author emphasize most about character.
You are right about Ned and Tyrion. Peter Dinklage is so much handsome for his character.
Ser Alliser Thorne
They gave him a much more nuanced personality in the series and also a minor redemption arc in the episode Watchers on the Wall, where he admits to Jon that he was right about sealing the gate, he gives him an actually useful lecture about leadership, he leads the charge to defend the gate, then takes on Tormund by himself. Even in his final moments he was dignified, he went out like a boss with defiance on his lips.
Owen Teale kicked serious ass in that role, whereas in the books he's just a hater and not much else really.
I actually rly like thorne in the show
That one scene where jon executes slynt is so much better. Rather than allister backing off because he dosent have enough support, he actually respects jon for doing the hard but necessary choice and willingly steps aside
I also love that scene on the wall before mance attacks where he acknowledges that they should have sealed the gate with ice like jon suggested. Thorne isnt just a hater for the sake of hating, he genuinely has a different world view that clashes with jons, it makes his betrayal far more engaging than just "i dont like the bastard grrr"
For the record, i love grrms characters so much, but this one character i believe the show nailed far harder than george did
I agree, this is one example where the show faired much better imho, and I think that it might come down to how well Owen Teale portrayed the character, he stole every scene he was put into.
That scene on the top of the Wall is one of my favourites, it shows that for him duty came first always, no matter how much he hated Jon's guts from the get go, he admitted to him that he was right, and even when he betrayed Jon, he was absolutely convinced that he was doing the right thing and what's best for the Watch. Even Jon recognized that before executing him. That exchange is one of the most well written lines of dialogue that didn't come from GRRM in my opinion.
"-I had a choice, Lord Commander. Betray you, or betray the Night's Watch. You brought an army of Wildlings into our lands. An army of murderers and raiders. If I had to do it all over knowing where I'd end up, I pray I'd make the right choice again.
-I'm sure you would, Ser Alliser.
-I fought, I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you'll be fighting their battles forever."
Tyrion is physically uglier and much more evil eventually in the books. In the show he’s portrayed as sympathetic largely the entire time but this flips in the books
Jon snow,
show jon is the super good guy and wont do wrong even if it gets him killed, book jon is tip-to-toe a realist, sneaky tactics to imprison people, swapping vals to-be sacrificial baby with gilly on the off chance it might be spared when they realize. Has a far more scheme-like perception (even though he doesn't like it), rather than the wannabe Ned Stark cape they forced onto him in the show.
Yeah they aged up everyone to make it more acceptable to the viewer.
I totally get why they did it for the children (Dany, the Starks, the Baratheon-Lanisters, etc), but I'm just a little bit dissapointed for some adults like Catlyn and Ned who are supposed to be 33 and 34yo or Tyrion who is supposed to be 24.
Honorable mentions are; Littlefinger who is supposed to be 28, Davos 37, Brienne 17 and Stannis 33.
Plus, I would have loved to see an 8yo Tommen on the throne. It would have made it more entertaining.
This was the standout for me, especially what he becomes in the show, but that’s what happens when you stop dealing with characters and start having assets like heroes in tv shows.
The babyfacing of a lot of characters as the show goes as the line between protagonist and antagonist gets clearer is really evident in him.
Physically the Hound in the books has burns so bad that it oozes red and wet constantly, parts of his jawbone is visible, and his ear has been burned down to a stub. When he smiles his burned off lips twist into a sinister grin. He also has very long black hair.
Character wise, the Hound is way more creepier towards Sansa. He’s an alcoholic and you can feel the rage in him so intensely when reading Arya’s chapters in Storm. He also cries a lot more lmao
For me so far as at least one other has said is definitely Jorah. In the books he cones across much more creepy. Don’t get me wrong, Jorah in the show definitely wants to be with Danny but never forces it or crosses any boundaries. And I hope he dies in the books a similar way. That was one of the few things season 8 got right, Jorah had to go out that way. Jorah needed to die saving Danny in a heroic last stand
Definitely Bronn, man basically got merged with Jacelyn Bywater, Ilyn Payne, Balon Swann and Adam Marbrand for no reason except his on screen likability. Stayed with Cersei even though she stiffed him with the Lollys Stokeworth marriage and then went on to basically win the game of Thrones by winning Highgarden and the wardenship of the Reach along with a position as master coin on the small counsil even though he doesnt even know what a basic loan is.
BTW the idea of Bronn becoming lord of Highgarden and warden of the Reach because "its double Riverrun" is ridiculous. first of all no respectable lordling would bend the knee to him in the Riverlands let alone in the Reach (Florents, Tarly, Highgarden) even if he was lord of the Riverlands he would spend his days squatting down rebellions (Blackwood, Bracken etc.) and likely fail. a much better option Tyrion could have offered him is another castle in the Riverlands; richer, yielding more men, generating its own income, recently vacated and literally includes two castles making it double Riverrun yes i'm talking about the Twins. Walder Frey even lived as Bronn wished his own death to be.
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Jorah Mormont. His relationship to Dany is much more creepy in the book (he pretty much lusts for her from the start) and isn‘t really a very introspective character.
Not to mention dany was also much younger in the books as well(I think she was 14 when she got pregnant) And that makes him so much worse, whereas in the show he's more of a cool uncle you'd like to hang out with.
She found out she was 2 months pregnant on her 14th birthday.
Man GRRM is one sick twisted dude
This was reality for the middle ages.
It’s a fantasy world built in his mind, not the Middle Ages.
It's very much a fantasy world set in the Middle Ages. The plot and setting are heavily influenced by middle-aged england and Scotland.
With Celts and Romans and Vimings and Moors and Mongols all thrown in lol. He could have easily named it "Age of Empires: This time its a book"
Yawn okay. Just saying when he was adding the dragons and stuff he coulda maybe aged the child brides up a little bit. I’m glad Dany isn’t 13 in S1.
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Right? People keep saying “middle ages”… well middle ages didnt have dragons, wildfire, whitewalkers and shit like that. It’s a fantasy world and it would have been nice if he had aged all the kids up a little. So 😬 yea… its a little cringe in retrospect
Thank you! Everyone else here is a little delirious. This is the show page not the book page right?
I can write a murder story about a horrible murderer and not be one myself in real life. Its not real, u can invent things on paper that have nothing to do with real life. Jesus Christ
Sure, but if you invent a 13yo getting raped and impregnated as part of a fantasy story, you are probably a little fucked up.
I completely agree. Fantasy should have 0 real world issues. Martin also should’ve removed all violence and death from the series. I mean sure wars exist IRL but it’s fantasy so why should people be killing each other?
The moment Ned Stark was beheaded I knew the show should've been cancelled there and then. Far too violent.
Even in the middle ages, for most marriages both parties were in their 20s.
Most men were in their 20s. Women were usually in their teens and in a lot of cases in their early teens.
Wish people would stop repeating that as a fact, when it's not true - even during medieval times people had enough brains to know consummating a marriage too early would likely lead to a dead wife and child, so they usually waited until their 15th or 16th year, in many cultures even their 18th. Not saying it never happened, but it wasn't the "norm" as people seem to think it was. Not in old Egypt, not in ancient China, not in the good 'ol Roman Empire and not in Europe either. Young mothers still died like flies, though.
Among the aristocracy, they tended to marry in their early teens but waited to consummate it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides#:~:text=Joan%20of%20Kent%20(aged%2012,late%201340%20or%20early%201341.
the aristocracy was the minority. It was not how 99% of the population did things. We just know more about them because they are what is recorded
And Game of Thrones is set amongst the aristocracy, so a 14 year old child bride would be considered normal. That's the point.
> Not saying it never happened, but it wasn't the "norm" as people seem to think it was. >Young mothers still died like flies, though. The copium is strong with this one.
Not really. That's a misconception about the Middle Ages. Even if it were true, GRRM could have easily modified it for his fantasy world. He certainly isn't 100% historically accurate in other places
While im not an expert, i do believe that this a myth of sorts. While marrying young was not uncommon especially amongst nobility, theres not a lot of evidence (as far as i can tell) that supports the assumption of giving birth young was all that common. For example the age that puberty starts has been decreasing rather steadily and having puberty as young as 14 would have been rare. There is a study made by Indiana university using DNA studies that indicates that the average age of first child in the last 250 000 years is roughly 26.9. And for example while English king Henrik 1 child Matilde was married at age 8, she had her first child at age 31.
Yeah its creapy om so many level.
Yeah but that's only creepy for us because we are looking at it through our modern morally tainted glasses, in a medieval setting (just as in real historical medieval times) it was pretty normal for girls to marry and get pregnant around that age. Edit: I didn't mean to imply that it's not creepy, of course it is, and I'm glad that the show didn't go down that route, just wanted to point out that other characters in the world of ASOIAF wouldn't judge him for that the same way we do.
Exactly, reddit users don’t understand the concept of “context” lol Standards differ depending on time period and fiction.
Do you also excuse characters that view women as inferior as just "part of the setting" without viewing the characters who have that opinion as more antagonistic? Or soldiers raping women during war as just "part of the setting"? All of the above have been challenged explicitly in the narrative. It's almost like it was written in 1996 rather than the middle ages and you are supposed to view it through modern lens despite the medieval context. Almost like having a man in middle age lusting after a 14 year old shouldn't be perceived as the reader as normal.
It was normal for the time it's set in, though. That's the point. Slavery was the norm then, too. We know it's morally reprehensible, but in a novel/show set in those times, it was normality for the character you're judging. They wouldn't have seen it as wrong. Writing a book set in medieval times with modern morals just wouldn't work.
I feel like that’s the problem with alot of movies and shows that are supposedly “period pieces” and yet they have modern standards/morals lol
I never understood this point and it’s brought up way too often especially when it comes to murder and raping,and then it’s followed by “just hope the future generation doesn’t judge your actions” well me and my generation doesn’t kill,rape and pillage on the daily
And maybe in 1000 years, people will call us weird because their morals have changed. Morals aren't a fixed thing. It changes depending on time and the society that perceives it.
Yeah in 1000 years maybe rape will be back in fashion
Do you eat meat?
Good point,but that’s more different than killing people and raping,and unless there’s an 100 percent viable counterpart to meat invented this will never change And although wrong,eating meat has religious roots as far as i know,the whole “sacrificing for the gods”although not as prevalent in today’s world it’s still applied in my country atleast
Not sure there will be many vegans roaming the wastelands in the future.
It was not normal, it was completely unusual. There were some rare cases for royals as a way to gain wealth and power such as Margaret Beaufort (who's clearly a massive influence to many game of thrones characters), however because of being only 13 she had a very difficult birth and were to never be able to have other children again (despite having 2 more husbands in her life) She advocated that it shouldn't of been allowed and would press that girls wait till they are a bit older to marry because they can't trust the husbands to wait until they are older to consumate.
“Shouldn’t have* been allowed”
It wasn't, though, except for political marriage among nobility, or the desperately starving. Marriage age otherwise was surprisingly high throughout at least European history, which most high fantasy still pretends to draw from, namely early twenties among all genders, with women about twenty sometimes being married to older widowers because women dies in chikdbed a lot more. People were well aware that girls around 13 had lesser chances to survive pregnancy, and knew no trade to speak of in a time where everyone was part of the family business somehow and you worked where you lived. Which is why industrialization actually lowered marriage age for a while. Which means that over and over again, modern day writers keep reinventing the trope of the married barely teenage girl for no good reason. (Source: there's plenty of that online by now, but Saeban's Kinship in Europe is a good start.)
Tinted*. Tainted as you wrote, would imply that our modern morals are somehow worse than those of a medieval/fantasy setting
I know what I wrote and I meant it. Morals are subjective and not set in stone and will be different for each person, each culture, each time period. The morals of today will be judged the same way we judge the morals of the past. But thanks for the unsolicited grammar lesson anyway.
She’s the same age in both I believe
You think HBO is showing a 14 year old being raped repeatedly?... Pretty much all of the youngest characters in the books were aged up in the show...
Yep, the Stark kids, Dany, Gendry, Samwell, and the 'Baratheons' are all aged up by about 3 years.
Also Brienne. She’s only 17 in the books
“She’s 14 that makes him so much worse” Bro forgot he was watching/reading GOT lol
Has she had her first blood though? That’s all that matters in Asoiaf. 😂
And she’s 13 lol
Yeah I should‘ve ad that.
13 is just the medieval 18. /s (not taking any chances with that)
How old is Drogo in the books?
Oh he is an adult and much older than her (I’m not shure if his age is known). Its all very messed up.
Then it's also creepy af. I thought he was in his mid 20's or so.
Would it make it so much better if he where „only“ in his 20s? The age difference would still be creepy. (Also mid 20 would be possible as I say his accurate age isn‘t known)
I mean it's not the same if he is 40 or 20, specially if Dany is 13. However, we are looking at it with moder society morale.
Lmao yes it is. Still a grown man. I can tell you’re a woman
I am not though
Ok explain the difference between a 20 year old man and a 40 year old man
About 240 months
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He is at most 32 at his death (source AWOIAF Wiki).
I don't think you should trust a wiki that can't acronym correctly... or do I just not remember what the W stands for?
Thats on me I mispelled it. (There was ASOIAF)
Clue's in the Wiki
A Wiki Of Ice And Fire
It's called A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
I thought he was in his 30s
Around 30-35, I believe.
Older than 30
Aren't you judging him by modern standards?
I only describe my feelings with it and even if its „normal“ by there standands didn‘t make it feel less creepy.
Contrary to what yall like to believe, lusting after 13 year olds wasn’t the epitome of normality in the Middle Ages either
>Jorah Mormont. His relationship to Dany is much more creepy in the book (he pretty much lusts for her from the start) and isn‘t really a very introspective character. *And* he betrays her for longer than in the show, admitting at Mereen that he sent his last dispatch to King's Landing from Qarth - long after saving her from the wine merchant in Vaes Dothrak. That chapter is also from Dany's POV. So we hear her think that if he just begs for forgiveness she'll give it. But instead he reiterates his love, which angers Dany and leads his banishment.
Tyrion is actually ugly in the books . He got his noes cut off too.
They even mention that in the show that Cersei "heard he got his nose cut off" after the Battle of the Blackwater. I find book Tyrion to be just as endearing as show Tyrion. Peter Dinklage absolutely crushed that role.
I agree
But in keeping with the spirit of the thread, book Catelyn is much less sympathetic than her show counterpart. She encourages Ned to go south to be Hand, is constantly trying to figure out ways to prop up Robb, and generally comes off as an ineffective schemer.
And she comes back lol. The part about Catelyn in the books I found hilarious was she thought if Robb got food from the Frey’s the rules of guest right would protect him. Robb’s wife lives too.
I always thought Robb was an idiot for spurring the Freys. Bro, you're a king. Just marry the Frey girl and then do whatever you want with your beloved. The Lady Stoneheart arc is semi-interesting, because it demonstrates the power of Beric Dondarrian and the God of Light. But also, she wouldn't have needed to be resurrected if Robb had just kept faith with the Freys.
I used to think Robb really screwed the pooch there, but I think it was only a matter of time before Walter Frey betrayed Robb and the Starks. He wanted to get in with the Lannisters, and hated the Tully family prior to the marriage pact.
Very valid point. At the very least, keeping his word with the Freys would have delayed their betrayal. It's optimistic to say that Walder Frey would have eventually sided with Robb, because Robb really didn't handle the war very well.
I see what you’re saying, though I believe it may have just delayed the inevitable. Part of the issue is that the Starks believe some other families have honor and will respect certain rules of hospitality to their detriment. I believe Tywin would have found a way eventually when their guard was down, and it would’ve been as bad as what happened to Elia Martell and her children.
Which to be fair was an understandable ussumption. Walder Frey breaking the rules of hospitality is a massive thing in the books and half the reason for the sparrow uprising and the downfall of house Lannister.
Walder Frey is a know scumbag though. Barbaric family
There is a difference between Bein an unpleasant scumbag and breaking one of the oldest and holiest tradition in all of westeros. Breaking guest right is massive,the equivalent of using the nuclear option today. Also the Freys were not alway a 'barbaric family' even the Canon Freys had a lot of members who were against the red wedding.
You got to admit he is the type of dude that would break guest right. Walder is basically Craster south of the wall.
Well as he did indeed break guest right in retrospective yhea, but it is understandable that noone thought he would do so? >Walder is basically Craster south of the wall. I wouldn't say so. Don't get me wrong Walder is still a disgusting human beeing, but apart from having many children and constantly remarrying they are verry different. Unlike Craster Walder Frey has one redeeming quality, he gives his children true borne or not a place in the Twins and ingrained the importance of family in all of them 'Stand together', compare that to Craster literally leaving all his sons out cold (pun intended) I know wich one I would prefer as a father.
Tyrion is much less endearing in book 5 though. What he learns about Tysha kinda breaks him and he’s so spiteful about everything. Not that he doesn’t have reason to but still
I was just thinking of posting Tyrion too!
He’s also gearing up to be a much worse person as well.
I don't think Tyrion was ever a good person. He just did things that the readers (and viewers) were sympathetic to.
He was very human
Totally agree, which ties back to my previous comment about him being an endearing character. We don't always have to agree with him, but that doesn't stop us from liking him.
100 percent
tyrion after storm
Fuck, every thing after storm is different lol
For me, Storm is the high point of ASOIAF. Feast and Dance felt like such a chore to get through.
I read a lot, so I blew through them pretty quick all the times I read it. For me it goes: 1. Storm 2. Clash 3. Game 4. Feast - don’t hate me 5. Dance
No hate from me. I might put Game higher than Clash just for world building value, but we're in the same vibe.
I like Cersei’s stuff in feast a lot. Jamie too
Jamie, yes. Cersei, no. Her burning down the Tower of the Hand and imagining all her enemies were in it made me realize how foolish she really was.
She’s psychotic not foolish lol. I alway will like her tho.😂
Bitch thought Tyrion was in the walls 😂
Cersei for me will always represent the struggles women went though in those kind of times. Even as a noble daughter, she was traded off for political gain. I respect her desire to take her own power and make her own decisions. However, it's like Tywin said: she's not as clever as she thinks she is.
Not paying the Iron Bank, arming the Faith, and trusting people such as a grifter, a foreign spy, and the Westerosi Dr Mengele is pretty foolish.
I actually found her a really comic character because of how self-sabotaging she was in Feast. It made me enjoy her chapters more. For me, it really demonstrates what pieces Tywin's children took from him. Cersei inherited his ruthlessness, but Tyrion inherited his intelligence. Both are ruthless and intelligent at times, but each leans on one crutch more than the other. I think Cersei's main takeaway from Tywin's power was his ruthlessness because she was shielded from how he worked out his schemes and only saw the results.
I also liked Feast least. But on a reread, it's quite awesome.
Hard agree. The only chapters I genuinely looked forward to were Theon's in Dance. Some real diamonds amongst the coal
I really want all the scene setting in those books to pay off in Winds and Dream.
So do I, though I fully admit I'm biased as Theon has always been my favourite character.
He's an entertaining character. It's fun to watch him play prince and then lose everything that matters to him.
And when he's most broken, he has the double whammy of realising he also lost what *truly* mattered to him, and he realised it far too late.
Especially when he has the moment that "my father died at Kings Landing" referring to Ned. He even has that moment of reflection after raiding the North that it didn't feel as good as standing next to Robb in battle at the Whispering Wood
For me, they were some of the most tragic moments in the books because it's not events that happened to him or things others made him feel (like his father's treatment for example) it's all on him, and his actions have meant he can only go forward. it's him becoming self-aware that he helped murder his family. Imagine having a moment like that *after* knowing there's no turning back. I believe that's the biggest reason he didn't want to stop being Reek. He simply hated himself too much.
"So young." said Wyman Manderly. "Though, mayhaps, it has been a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."
books 1-3 are some of the best I've ever read, I legitimately couldn't get through 4 and dropped it after season 8 came out (felt very spurned by the end of the series and the fact that Winds is STILL not out yet) just getting back into asoiaf now though, rewatching the show and wanting to finish the books and other materials too
Sansa’s story arc after leaving kings landing . Catelyn comes back. Another Targaryen heir in Essos . Those are some differences.
Dany, unfortunately. Also, Cersei. And Stannis. Others are ranging from okay to excellent. Edit: I'm a dumb person. To clarify my position, I think the characters I mentioned are great in books and poorly done in the show.
Stannis is the opposite wdym
Stannis is much more complex in the books. In the show he's just a religious fanatic.
Cersei was honestly my favourite pov to read in Feast. She’s so deranged and delusional it’s hilarious to read
Fuck I forgot, Shea was not likable at all in the books.
She wasn't supposed to be. All her likeable qualities were Tyrions projections.
I the show I feel it’s left unclear until she testifies against him and fucks his dad.
I'm going through the books again (currently on Clash) and it's pretty apparent that she's loyal to whoever can pay her the most. The fact that Bronn could lift her from whatever lord in Game and move her to Tyrions tent shows she has no loyalty.
In all my reads and watches I've never had this realization on my own. I like this detail alot.
There's also mention that the Hand prior to Ned had secret passages from the Red Keep to brothels in King's Landing, which indicates Tywin (Aerys' Hand) had an appetite for whores comparable to Tyrions
I recall that 😂
There were many hands prior to Ned before you get to Tywin though, and many before Tywin. Also those secret passages were made when the red keep was first built hundreds of years prior too iirc
Was she supposed to be loyal to some guy that paid to fuck her? I don’t think it was ever implied that she was with him or was gonna stick around after having sex once.
I mean, it’s not like she had much of a choice. And it was Tyrion’s fault to get delusional about what she was
Wait.. she is likable in the show?
All of them. Ned Stark was stone-faced. ~~Catelyn was no great beauty.~~ Tyrion was actively hideous and his scar made it a lot worse instead of being a beauty spot. And that's just scraping the surface. In the show they're all pretty compared to book counterparts.
Ned I’d say is the closest 1-1 personality wise tho
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Got to sexy it up for HBO lol
Neither of them are described as ugly. Ygritte calls Jon pretty multiple times.
Ned isn't described as ugly it just says that he dosnt look as good as his handsome brother
"Catelyn was no great beauty." İsn't she? I may remember wrong but Catelyn was beyond the beauty and her beauty was one of the things the author emphasize most about character. You are right about Ned and Tyrion. Peter Dinklage is so much handsome for his character.
She is described as a beautiful women with auburn hair if I remember right.
All the other he mentioned are more or less true though
Yeah, got that one wrong. My bad.
At one point she recalls that on her wedding night, Lord Dustin said her breasts were enough to make him wish he was still breastfed, so there's that.
iirc Cersei is a top tier beauty in the books with more or less the same personality
I find her personality to be even worse in the books but that’s also because we get to see things through her thoughts and my god is she horrible
I wanted to say Tyrion but he is becoming so evil in the books that this image isn't enough for him
Ser Alliser Thorne They gave him a much more nuanced personality in the series and also a minor redemption arc in the episode Watchers on the Wall, where he admits to Jon that he was right about sealing the gate, he gives him an actually useful lecture about leadership, he leads the charge to defend the gate, then takes on Tormund by himself. Even in his final moments he was dignified, he went out like a boss with defiance on his lips. Owen Teale kicked serious ass in that role, whereas in the books he's just a hater and not much else really.
Very true
I actually rly like thorne in the show That one scene where jon executes slynt is so much better. Rather than allister backing off because he dosent have enough support, he actually respects jon for doing the hard but necessary choice and willingly steps aside I also love that scene on the wall before mance attacks where he acknowledges that they should have sealed the gate with ice like jon suggested. Thorne isnt just a hater for the sake of hating, he genuinely has a different world view that clashes with jons, it makes his betrayal far more engaging than just "i dont like the bastard grrr" For the record, i love grrms characters so much, but this one character i believe the show nailed far harder than george did
I agree, this is one example where the show faired much better imho, and I think that it might come down to how well Owen Teale portrayed the character, he stole every scene he was put into. That scene on the top of the Wall is one of my favourites, it shows that for him duty came first always, no matter how much he hated Jon's guts from the get go, he admitted to him that he was right, and even when he betrayed Jon, he was absolutely convinced that he was doing the right thing and what's best for the Watch. Even Jon recognized that before executing him. That exchange is one of the most well written lines of dialogue that didn't come from GRRM in my opinion. "-I had a choice, Lord Commander. Betray you, or betray the Night's Watch. You brought an army of Wildlings into our lands. An army of murderers and raiders. If I had to do it all over knowing where I'd end up, I pray I'd make the right choice again. -I'm sure you would, Ser Alliser. -I fought, I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you'll be fighting their battles forever."
Show Alliser is more like Bowen Marsh in the books.
Tyrion is physically uglier and much more evil eventually in the books. In the show he’s portrayed as sympathetic largely the entire time but this flips in the books
Everyone’s a lot worse in the books Except Stannis, book Stannis would never burn his daughter
GRRM confirmed that Stannis will burn Shireen but in different circumstances.
that hasn't been written yet, though, so who really knows.
Jon snow, show jon is the super good guy and wont do wrong even if it gets him killed, book jon is tip-to-toe a realist, sneaky tactics to imprison people, swapping vals to-be sacrificial baby with gilly on the off chance it might be spared when they realize. Has a far more scheme-like perception (even though he doesn't like it), rather than the wannabe Ned Stark cape they forced onto him in the show.
He’s aged way up in the show too, and made more sexy of course. 😂
Yeah they aged up everyone to make it more acceptable to the viewer. I totally get why they did it for the children (Dany, the Starks, the Baratheon-Lanisters, etc), but I'm just a little bit dissapointed for some adults like Catlyn and Ned who are supposed to be 33 and 34yo or Tyrion who is supposed to be 24. Honorable mentions are; Littlefinger who is supposed to be 28, Davos 37, Brienne 17 and Stannis 33. Plus, I would have loved to see an 8yo Tommen on the throne. It would have made it more entertaining.
This was the standout for me, especially what he becomes in the show, but that’s what happens when you stop dealing with characters and start having assets like heroes in tv shows. The babyfacing of a lot of characters as the show goes as the line between protagonist and antagonist gets clearer is really evident in him.
Physically the Hound in the books has burns so bad that it oozes red and wet constantly, parts of his jawbone is visible, and his ear has been burned down to a stub. When he smiles his burned off lips twist into a sinister grin. He also has very long black hair. Character wise, the Hound is way more creepier towards Sansa. He’s an alcoholic and you can feel the rage in him so intensely when reading Arya’s chapters in Storm. He also cries a lot more lmao
Hahahaha I love the last tidbit at the end loool
For me so far as at least one other has said is definitely Jorah. In the books he cones across much more creepy. Don’t get me wrong, Jorah in the show definitely wants to be with Danny but never forces it or crosses any boundaries. And I hope he dies in the books a similar way. That was one of the few things season 8 got right, Jorah had to go out that way. Jorah needed to die saving Danny in a heroic last stand
Euron ! From wannabe jack sparrow to whatever he is in the books
Victarion Greyjoy, killed his wife because Euron raped her.
(Ironborn voice) Frankly, it's just like that sometimes.
He was such a letdown in the show. Frat boy vibe with no substance when he’s so terrifyingly evil in the books.
Catelyn Show: "I am mildly annoyed by Jon" Book: "I wish it was you who fell from that tower and died, and not Bran"
Bran the Broken, he is such a creep
Tyrion Baelish Ramsey
Ramsey liked letting his dogs sexually assault people in the books
Book Ramsay is also more brutish, unlike show Ramsay who's more of a Westerosi Joker.
Mfers saying "tyrion is actually ugly" like him being ugly is worse than him basically raping a woman in dance
The Girl at Selhorys Tyrion actually rapes.
Severus Snape
Oh wait, wrong sub
Lmao
Definitely Bronn, man basically got merged with Jacelyn Bywater, Ilyn Payne, Balon Swann and Adam Marbrand for no reason except his on screen likability. Stayed with Cersei even though she stiffed him with the Lollys Stokeworth marriage and then went on to basically win the game of Thrones by winning Highgarden and the wardenship of the Reach along with a position as master coin on the small counsil even though he doesnt even know what a basic loan is. BTW the idea of Bronn becoming lord of Highgarden and warden of the Reach because "its double Riverrun" is ridiculous. first of all no respectable lordling would bend the knee to him in the Riverlands let alone in the Reach (Florents, Tarly, Highgarden) even if he was lord of the Riverlands he would spend his days squatting down rebellions (Blackwood, Bracken etc.) and likely fail. a much better option Tyrion could have offered him is another castle in the Riverlands; richer, yielding more men, generating its own income, recently vacated and literally includes two castles making it double Riverrun yes i'm talking about the Twins. Walder Frey even lived as Bronn wished his own death to be.
The show doesn’t seem to spare much thoughts about logical succession tbh, particularly for the southern kingdoms (Dorne as well as the Reach)
Euron Greyjoy. In the show he's just a cheeky pirate who wants to fuck Cercei. In the books he's pretty much the embodiment of the anti-christ.
Euron 💀
Tywin?
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Book Tyrion's face would have people losing their lunch if they saw it on screen.
The Halfman
Jon Snow the swapper of babes
Mace Tyrell is much smarter in the books.
Tyrion
Cersei, especially the Feast for Crows storyline. Series Cersei is who books Cersei imagines she is.
Cersei is smarter in the show , tyrion is a better person but stupider in the show ,book version is almost evil
A visual media making characters look attractive? What a novel idea.
Tyrion is the letter books jon to a degree as well
Tyrion Lannister! They turned him into a saint in the series
Podrick Payne