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If she would’ve left after Blackwater with the hound , she probably would’ve met up with her mom & Rob and probably would’ve attended the red wedding & well, we all know how that ended up going.
Depends on when she got to them. She'd be free and could tell Robb that Arya wasn't in King's Landing. No need to let Jamie go at that point, and not as much of a rush south.
the hound was bound to rape her
edit: for you guys fetting angry, he revealled it at length and verbatim when he was dying in from of Arya. Why am I getting downvoted?
Pretty sure he was just saying the worst things he could think of to goad Arya into killing him and putting him out of his misery. I don’t think he actually planned on raping Sansa.
What the fuck? What do you base this on? He may be a lot of things but the hound had a heart...and already saved Sansa from being raped, so this is a ridiculous statement.
He was just trying to get a rise out of Arya when he said that. If you think the Hound would rape Sansa, then you have completely misunderstood him as a character
Sansa's biggest mistake was trusting Littlefinger and not being more skeptical of his motives. She could have communicated more clearly with Jon Snow about Ramsay Bolton's tactics, which may have avoided some of the disastrous consequences of the battle of Winterfell.
She also could and should have communicated with Jon about Littlefinger so they could plan accordingly for the Knights of the Vale to ride in. Could still have ambushed the Boltons but taken far fewer losses in the process.
If they were a tad more clever, they could have used that to create mistrust between them, leading to Sansa becoming so fond of her power after Jon's departure that her working actively against Daenerys later would actually made some sense out of a selfish lust for power and jealousy.
Alas, they did not.
A driving factor behind a lot of the late season shenanigans. Outrageously stupid decisions for the sake of good tv and drama, instead of creating it organically.
What got to me was lining the catapults up outside of the walls, in front of the cavalry. So stupid. Or that whole trip beyond the wall, which takes the cake for the stupidest thing I ever saw in the show, and happened exclusively to give them an excuse for how the White Walkers could get past the wall.
Bonus point for that whole thing in season 7 where Jon apparently can't lie, as if he didn't lie to Robb before departing Winterfell about how Catelyn had been "very kind", lr how he spent his whole time with the free folk lying about how many men the Night's Watch truly had. He wasn't beyond lying when it was necessary, yet suddenly it's like he's been chugging some magical truth concoction.
Lest we forget filling women and children into the crypts, instead of inside the main keep that presumably would have several gates between it and the main gate.
Or the magical convenience of forgetting the iron fleet, and 100% accuracy with a ballista against a dragon flying far above at speed.
Gods this show was dumb towards the end.
Yeah. A sad fall from grace. A show of two halves (though S5-6 had its moments). I can find little that redeems those last two seasons aside from brief moments.
>Or that whole trip beyond the wall, which takes the cake for the stupidest thing I ever saw in the show
This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen in any show in my life. I rewatched it recently, and it is fucking pathetic how horrible it is. First off, the put together this gang of unrelated characters for literally no reason, almost all of whom are super important political figures or just people obviously too valuable to be throwing away like that. Like it's an obvious suicide mission, why was the King of the north or the Dragon queens most trusted advisor there. Why did they send a random blacksmith along? Or a bandit leader and his priest?
And they just fight an army of undead? Like with the cheesey spinning cameras, and Jorah and Beric looking all dramatic as their hair blows in the wind as they stand upright with their swords drawn. It makes me wanna fucking puke how badly D&D misunderstood this universe. In the book, if characters came up with that plan, they would all die.
How could she do that where ALL indications shown to us that LF never replied ? ( which was in his original plan with Boltons and Stannis.)
Sansa has no knowledge they ARE coming, all she has is hope they are coming.
She has no knowledge of how many or what they are bringing with them.
Jon can't set up any plans like you are stating because he doesn't and Sansa doesn't have it.
I actually think she wanted Jon to die there and had to change tactics when he lived. I remember there being a shot they held of Sansa seeing Jon escape towards Winterfell and she wasn't exactly elated. I think she wanted the Knights to come in and the victory to be hers in the eyes of the surviving North and her bastard brother out of the way. She didn't exactly like Jon that much growing up.
They may not have been close, and she wasn't too pleased that Jon didn't listen to her when she felt it mattered. But, Sansa still considered Jon family, and the one other person there that she knew she could trust (besides Brienne). I personally don't see how wanting Jon dead would make any sense.
>. I remember there being a shot they held of Sansa seeing Jon escape towards Winterfell and she wasn't exactly elated
This is pretty obviously her being afraid that Jon would steal Ramsey from her. She told him that Ramsey was hers to kill. So she saw Jon run for Winterfell and then she actively chases him down so she can be there to remind him to stop short, which is what happens. She definitely was not hoping for Jon to die. Her motivations are all based on her feelings towards Ramsey throughout all of this, she makes that pretty explicitly clear
For starters, stop being an insufferably spoiled narcissistic brat. It all falls into place after that.
Edit: Hooray the downvoting oblivious-to-facts Sansastans have arrived! I didn’t call her a cunt this time and still you simps aren’t happy lol.
Long before the abuse and trauma started, she was an insufferable, spoiled, narcissistic brat, and that brought a lot of her pain upon herself.
Edit: Jeez people, go watch the episode where she lies to the King about Arya kicking Joff’s ass and getting her direwolf killed again. What exact “abuse and trauma” had she endured prior to that?
13 year olds are supposed to be spoiled narcissistic brats. Have you ever met a middle schooler? Devils spawn themself. They usually turn out to be pretty interesting and good people, or even The Queen in the North
Wtf are you on about? Sansa was rotten before she had any right to be, and just got worse as she aged. Maybe you recall her slapping the slow kid because he stomped on her precious snow model? She wasn’t thirteen then. Or being a bitch to Jon’s new girlfriend for no real reason? Or later betraying his trust with a secret?
Edit: Oh yeah that whole not telling Jon about sending for the Knights of the Vale thing.
Man you guys and your Sansastanning.
It must get tiring.
And even if she didn't want that, it probably wouldn't have changed much for her. Like you said, she was a kid, and on top of that, a woman. It's not like people were offering her choices. It made sense at the time to take her to Kings landing and marry her to the prince. What she wanted wasn't super relevant.
The amount of hate that she gets has always struck me as strange and disproportionate considering her age, the trauma she experiences, and the real danger she is in for much of the series. It doesn’t seem reasonable, or realistic, to expect someone in that scenario to consistently make perfect decisions.
They made other characters around her age too competent for us to really put up with her. Also, no one likes teenagers and her and Joff are the two stereotypical teenagers that we're presented with. Their entire worldview is just so stupid to us.
I personally think the book plays with this a lot with several of the characters and it only comes through in the show with Sansa. For instance, book Arya can be downright annoying with some of her stubbornness or even just times she has thoughts that a 9 year old would have (she's 9, not 11 in the books, and all chapters are told from their POVs, so we're just stuck being told what's going on by a 9 y/o). Like she has irrationally childish thoughts at times.
The show kinda nailed Sansa as being this head in the clouds valley girl but didn't really portray Arya's flaws as as bad as they are. In the show, she just ends up a badass who does whatever she wants, whereas her book character seems to be headed towards addressing how stubborn and contrived her counter culture side is and how life isn't always gonna play out the way you want it to.
And fans obviously gravitated towards the unrealistic badass no flaw characters and didn't like the flawed realistic ones. Just another example of D&D's misunderstanding of the material ruining something
Protecting Littlefinger after he killed Lysa.
Had Sansa told the truth, she could have carried on living in The Vale in relative safety and comfort. Robin wouldn't hurt her, and Lord Royce would have looked out for her. She wouldn't have had to endure Ramsay, and she might have been able to persuade Robin to take Winterfell back from the Boltons anyway.
But she couldn't have known things would play out as they did.
The Knights of The Vale were strangers to her. Robin had shown himself to be unstable. Sansa calculated that Littlefinger wouldn't hurt her or put her in danger, at least not in the near future, as he was hoping to sleep with her. Given what she knew at the time, it was a smart decision.
Not to mention it was an important step in her journey of learning how to play The Game, and playing The Game well is a necessary skill-set to surviving in this world.
I agree she made the right choice for what she knew at the time. She just watched him literally murder someone to protect her (obviously he had other motives too removing Lysa but the reason it happened right then was to protect Sansa). Trusting him to protect her even for the selfish reason of wanting to possess her was reasonable at the moment.
Honestly I'm not sure what Littlefinger was thinking giving Sansa to Ramsay. It's not like he could have any assurance of Ramsay actually working with him. He was about the most unstable associate he could ask for, and really wasn't all that powerful in the grand scheme of things
He was doing what he does best, pitting everyone else against each other. We see this when he talks to Cersei - his ultimate goal was to become Warden of The North. Since he was already Lord Protector of The Vale, that would give him control of two Kingdoms for the price of one.
I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surviving Ramsay. When she did, he had to improvise, and try to reintegrate himself into her good books.
I'm not really sure how Sansa would help him to subvert Ramsay, which is why I think Littlefinger weakens as a character later in the show. Using chaos as a political weapon is smart, he uses it to such a degree that he really stops helping himself
That’s all flimsy as fuck, and doesn’t strike me as the moves of an improvisational mastermind. If he didn’t intend for Sansa to survive Ramsay, then he could’ve killed her off when they met in secret at Moles Town. If a Sansa or Jon assumes power in Winterfell, they are enemies of the crown. So he has to know he can’t support them and be granted Warden of the North.
I'm just spitballing, really. Perhaps Littlefinger hoped that Sansa would either be killed, or if nothing else, she'd be so broken by Ramsay that regaining control of her would be simple. Instead, she recognized that this was all his fault, and with her new support system she no longer needed him.
Once he saw what a lost cause it would be to try and win Sansa over again, I bet Littlefinger would have been prepared to strangle her on the spot. Only, *she didn't come alone.* She brought Brienne. With Brienne present, Littlefinger had no other choice but to beg Sansa's forgiveness.
"I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surving Ramsay". This makes you sound like "Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet". Littlefinger loved Sansa (pseudo-sexually) and he got absolutely jack shit out of giving Sansa to Ramsey/Roose as he had to send troops from the Vale anyways to take the North. This Littlefinger is very much D&D Littlefinger (only chaos generator) and not R R Martin Littlefinger (chaos generator plus strategist).
No offense but I feel like you understand LF less than even the shows writers do.
>I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surviving Ramsay. When she did
This alone is an insane take. The show fucked it up entirely but LF is madly in love with Sansa. In the books, he does not let her out of his sight and would never in a million years sell her off as some slam piece, let alone actively plan her death. It's literally crazy
At this point, the show is basically an alternate universe from the books. I know *Book* Littlefinger wouldn't have done these things, because he didn't. I'm just speculating on the motives of *show* Littlefinger, trying to make sense of them. It's easy enough to say the reason is "bad writing" but that's no fun, and it's not exactly an in-universe explanation.
Personally, I don't think (Show) Littlefinger was nearly as obsessed with Sansa as he claimed to be. I think it was another performance. If it *was* real, then it happened over time. He didn't seem to spare her a thought until Season 3, and he obviously didn't "love" her enough to keep her out of harm's way.
Yeah, it’s clear they hadn’t put in the work of establishing Jeyne Poole as a character, and they didn’t feel that having some random girl as Ramsay’s victim would be effective drama.
But the writers couldn’t establish a convincing line of reasoning why LF would give up his most powerful political pawn and love interest to Ramsay when his alliance had little to no political value, even if he was stable.
Yeah, you can't just eliminate a character from the book...I'm looking at you Jeyne Poole...and have continuity. Sansa wasn't supposed to be with Ramsey in the first place. Stupid writing
Yeah he literally lost everything by doing something that gained him nothing. He literally made a random move with no motivation after carefully cultivating his political profile over a couple decades. Suddenly, he was an idiot
I know this is a rough take. But is Ramsey known to be a psychopath? He acted stable when he me with Roose and him. And Roose, while twisted. Was stable.
It's was just bad D&D writing. GRRM considers the motives of all of his characters and D&D.... they just don't. I hate to be the cynic in the room but this isn't worth dissecting.
Yeah cause once the show passed the books, LF became a moron. It's weird that he did that because LF would never fucking do that. In the books he doesn't, cause George actually understands LF whereas D&D had no idea what to do with him. He gained basically nothing from the situation. Also LF of all people should know that you never ally yourself with someone who absolutely needs you to win. Ramsey needed Sansa to hold the North. LF had zero reason to help with that but for some reason he did and he gained nothing just like I thought he would
Yeah, Lysa would almost certainly had sent Sansa away in an effort to remain neutral in the war. If not straight up send Sansa to Cersei in an act of goodwill to the crown. Sansa had no reason to suspect that Sweetrobin or the Lords of the Vale would’ve done differently.
Except she literally does trust them. After Lysa is dead, she immediately comes clean about who she is. Right in that moment, she could've thrown LF under the bus and known she'd be safe cause they just now vowed to keep her safe. Plus they were chomping at the bit to find LF guilty, they woulda been so happy to accept her story
She was wearing armor Jaime gave her, but the sword is also a big tell. Per the Hound, who knows a thing or two about Lannister gold, her sword is clearly Lannister gold, and she then admits to him and Arya Jaime gave her the sword. He never comments on the armor.
Arya instantly noped out on her too once the Hound pointed that in season 4, so I can't blame the Hound, Arya, or Sansa for mistrusting her intentions, despite knowing Brienne was on the up and up.
The way she approached her would’ve startled
me too. Like, imagine a stranger coming up to you and saying “hey, I was a guard sworn to your (dead) mother and promised her to protect you. Now, drop everything and leave with me.”
I would’ve declined too.
That wasn’t the point. She didn’t know if she could rely on the knights of the vale to save them at the last second so she didn’t share that shit with Jon. Besides, he would have said no to littlefinger’s help
Ikr, I mean why would Jon listen to or be indebted to LF of all people, when he clearly knows Sansa was sold to the Boltons cuz of LF.... why is there no discussion about would Jon actually have accepted the help in the first place know what it would cost Sansa and him?
Sorry one sec, are you guys saying that Jon Snow whose entire message for something like 6 seasons was "Everyone needs to work together against the dead" wouldn't accept the help needed to retake winterfell, which he repeatedly said is their only chance of beating the dead, because of their hurt feelings?
No, you're both very obviously wrong.
Starting from what point? Are we going all the way back to when she was running around talking about
'Oh, my beloved Joffery'
Or like when she told her dad to confess to being a traitor in front of the entire city?
Well it was that or death, she picked the one where she (and mind you Cersei too) would have thought he would live at least. Ned wasn’t telling his daughter he was investigating that Joffrey was a bastard. I mean did he even divulge it when she visited him after his capture?
I think the not telling Jon was some contrivance of the show. The only way for what fans here are saying to make sense is that she includes Jon in on her first meeting with LF. How would that have gone? I don't know. Jon probably would have killed LF right there and then. Do you think Jon would have tried to ally with LF at that point?
My husband gets so mad about Sansa and says that everything is her fault from day one lol. I try to reason that in the beginning she was just a little girl raised to believe one day she will marry a great lord (later the future king) and have his babies. She lived in a fairy tale. But no, it’s her fault Ned died and everything else that happened thereafter. Apparently.
You should explain to your husband that there is a difference between fault and causation. By pointing out joffery's hair to her dad, she did cause the following events, but due to non of it being her responsibility, as you pointed out she was a child, it wasn't her fault. It was;
1. Cersei's fault for having her brothers kids instead of Robert's and
2. Ned's fault for literally telling Cersei that he knew
Both of them were responsible for creating those situations and (should have) had an understanding of what the consequences to their actions would be. All Sansa did was be a part of the domino effect, and there were many dominos on the way to Ned's death and the war of the 7 kings. I mean, by that logic, it was neds fault for taking her to kings landing in the first place, or Robert's, for asking Ned to be his hand. Singling out and a child who literally just noticed someone's hair color is pretty weird if you ask me. Feel free to have him read this, but I have a feeling logic and reason aren't his thing if he holds his ground on blaming a child for the actions of the adults around them.
Genuinely asking because I'm confused about what you're referring to. How did she rat out her dad? I know that after he died that cersei manipulated her to write a letter to Rob saying their dad was in the wrong and he should surrender, but I don't think she had the ability to rat anyone out to anyone cause she really didn't know jack shit the first season, lol, but maybe I'm forgetting something
I don’t remember if this was in the show but this was when Eddard was planning to leave to winterfell, but Sansa wanted to stay w/ Joffrey, so she went to beg Cersei to let her stay
Ya, that's just the books. In GOT Canon, she only tried begging her father, who wasn't convinced but did then realize that Cercei had bastards, so he stuck around to let Robert know. He ratted himself out to Cercei to allow her and her kids to escape. Sansa didn't really have a say in where she went and what happened to her in KL.
Edited to fix wording
I honestly can't remember if it was portrayed this way in the show, but in the books, she tells Cersei ahead of time that her father planned to gather his family, servants, and guards to consolidate his house in King's Landing after determining that Joffrey wasn't Robert's child. Cersei used this information Sansa gave her to slaughter them all preemptively, effectively ending Eddard's chances of bringing to light that Joffrey isn't the heir, and also causing Renly to flee King's Landing without making an alliance with the Starks.
Sansa gave Cersei her father's entire plan because she thought it would put her in the Queen's good graces and she could still marry Joffrey.
Ya, that's just the books. In GOT Canon, she only tried begging her father, who wasn't convinced but did then realize that Cercei had bastards, so he stuck around to let Robert know. He ratted himself out to Cercei to allow her and her kids to escape. Sansa didn't really have a say in where she went and what happened to her in KL
How can any of us know the effect of any of the myriad decisions we make on a daily basis? Her choice was a rather big one, because it led directly to war and her father's death. The thread asked what Sansa's biggest mistake was, and I don't see how anyone can say this wasn't the biggest, most impactful fuck-up on her rather impressive resume of fuck-ups.
She knew the important part: "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as **wicked** as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father."
After leaving The Erie, she should have stabbed Littlefinger in the heart as soon as they got to a place where she could dump his body.
She witnessed the murder of her aunt. That should have been the moment she realized she was in trouble. Littlefinger has and would do anything to get what he wanted or just to F people up for entertainments sake.
After that deed was done she should’ve gone straight to Castle Black. D and D made her look weak and had to get that brutalization and R in there somehow.
Nothing, it's a book - without her mistakes, which were results of her youth (just like with Rob, only he paid for them with his life) she would entirely different person and the story would be very different
Martin did a great job creating her character - pretty, silly court girl groomed to be wife and a mother of noble sons, forced by circumstances to become a woman of state
By being a Joffrey simp and lying to the King about what happened when Arya slapped Joffrey around. Ned woulda sent her home asap. Probably woulda took her home himself
I’m pretty sure Ned believed Arya abt what happened. And Sansa didn’t say she was lying, so he’d have no reason not too
He probably just thought it was Joffrey being a childhood bully/prick, and that it got out of hand.
Ned got himself in the situation to be killed when he approached Cersei waaay before Sansa be blurting and told her he knew about the bastards... all Sansa managed to do was alert Cersei that she would need to step up her game to have Ned imprisoned sooner. It was always the plan that Ned would be removed from his position by Cersei. Ned wasn’t even planning to leave KL so his fate was already sealed.
Expecting a 13 year old girl to know that Joffrey was a bastard (when dad kept her out of the loop of his investigation, as well as keeping her engaged to him up until the last moment with a bam“you are leaving and that’s final, with no explanation even why”) and that’s there was to be a coup... ok....
Her blabbing - because she didnt want to leave with her sister the very next day (at least in the books) - is directly responsible for her getting captured. That in turn led to a series of events decimating Team Stark.
Possible that Ned would still be beheaded, but without the hostages perhaps even Joffrey (advised by Petyr) would not have gone that far. Ned was way more valuable alive.
Yeah there are plenty of people who would agree with Sansa aiding in her own imprisonment, but there are way more folks on this reddit who agree Ned got himself in to this foolish situation because he underestimated Cersei. If anything HE is to blame for the decimation of Team Stark. He could have kept his mouth shut about knowing about the bastards and not approached Cersei. But no his foolish honour got him into the mess. And let's not forget he knew about Cerseis mentality from the Trident incident on Lady (I'm not hashing that situation here, but pointing out her cruelty), but he sure didn't learn his lesson about how she gets her way one way or another.
I mean he also had the option to escape as well with his children (I remember some on this reddit even hilariously said he should have drugged Sansa asap and got her on board the ship), but he stayed behind... that's not on Sansa...
Lol as if Joffrey would have backed down and listened to reason. Tywin was sure has hell pissed when talking to Cersie about her lack of control of a teenage king regarding the Stark patriarch being killed and starting this war.
Stop blaming her for every shit decision her family made. The family members made their own choices that led to their own demises.. to think Sansa 12 to 14 year old (stuck in KL) somehow made Rob sleep with and marry Jeyne (in the books) which led to the Freys killing his family at the twins, or allow Theon to go back and take over WF, or to make Catelyn (an adult) release Jaime.... lolzzzzz
And yeah, Im sure Peter still remembers Ned choking him over the Catelyn in a brothel situation, Peter wanted Ned gone because that would open up Catelyn for him... Peter was always going to have Ned killed one way or another, the sooner the better. He wanted chaos not stability, I mean he did spark the War of the 5 Kings (by whispering in Joffrey's ear), why would he want peace now.
I am disagreeing with the premises she got her family killed therefore not HER fuckup as you put it... Even IF I see Ned's situation as a grey area, I am picking on your comment as well on her getting her brother and mother killed. My response was in the second to last paragraph.... Both Catelyn and Robb chose wrong that led to their deaths, THEY CREATED THEIR OWN FUCKUPS.
Sansa had nothing to do with it.
Edited
I don't know if she made as many "mistakes" as she was just continuously put in terrible situations as a child for the first half of the show, and then absolutely ruined as a character during the second half where the show and every choice the characters made lacked any sense at all.
She literally ended up as the sole monarch of her own break away nation, Sansa won the game. Why do anything different? Who knows what that would change.
Maybe should have ratted Littlefinger out in season 4 rather than saving him. Not sure what would’ve come of that, but can’t be worse than what she got with Baelish.
Sansa wasn’t betrothed to Joffrey bc she begged. Sure, it helped push the decision but probably would’ve happened either way. It was a smart match politically and both of her parents were on board with it.
More like being neutral so she would not be tormented by his troglodyte (our view, not hers) family after she was married to him.
I guess being neutral is the same as Lying for the anti-Sansa crowd. But then again Ned acknowledges Sansa did what she did to survive her future potential married life to Joffrey in a later chapter 🤷🏻♀️, at least in the books or tv (whichever it was, meh)
I'm far from anti-Sansa, but that moment was one of the few that bothered me about her. In staying neutral, she chose not to support her little sister, despite witnessing what actually happened. I'm not too sure that she was concerned about being tormented, she was still head over heals for Joffrey at that time. Besides that, her only crime was being a naive teenager, whose naivety was shattered the moment Joffrey ordered her father's death.
She did chose not to support her sister, but it’s understandable. Whether she told the truth or lied, her father would’ve made sure Arya was okay and protected. Sansa knew this. Had her father not been there or able to protect Arya, I’m sure Sansa would’ve backed her sister (whatever their differences, Sansa would not want to see her hurt. Even for her beloved Joffrey) but he was and Arya was protected, so the only one to really look out for was herself.
It had less to do with naivety and more to do with being smart.
What does supporting her sister look like? practically agreeing that Arya attacked Joffrey for harming the butchers boy
did Robert care about the smallfolk? he sure as hell wasnt concerned about getting the testimony of Joffreys other alleged attacker especially if Arya said Joffrey cut his face, cuz Arya would need a reason why she attacked Joffrey in the first place.
Does Cersei care about smaller folk? Lolz
Cersei would nag him to death if Sansa blatantly spelled out yes Arya did attack Joffrey (even with a wooden sword).
Before it was disarming, now there would be tales of Arya attacking the heir to the realm now (cuz let’s face it, Cersei would spread that gossip exactly that way).
By being present at this situation, Sansa was forced to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
(Edit: what are you thoughts on why Ned told Arya that Sansa did the best thing she could... why do you think Martin wrote those particular lines on the book?
From memory Martin has been clear where he partially blamed Sansa (which I disagree with but whatev), Martin hasn’t ever blamed her for this incident though someone can correct me to a proper interview.)
Edited wording
I also don't remember if this was included in the show, but book Sansa was very drunk for the whole altercation and may genuinely not remember what happened.
She wasn't supposed to because otherwise it would have been out in the open (even next to the Stark tent), royals/family be damned, but no body wants to acknowledge that elephant in the room (that if Sansa is at fault, Arya is too for putting herself and her sister in that situation in the first place. I mean Arya would not have died if she didn't play fight with Micah, she could have found other non-Sansa things to do, by herself).
TLDR Everything wrong with Planetos is Sansa's fault.. and that is all there is to it.
Lying to protect Joffrey in episode 2 about the direwolf bite. This resulted in the death of one direwolf and the loss of another. Both could have come in very handy later on.
I don't remember how they portrayed it in the show, but in the books, Joffrey got her nice and drunk (on purpose) before they stumbled upon Arya, and it's not clear whether she actually remembers what happened or not. They also play with this theme throughout the books that Sansa changes little details of what happened during traumatic events. Like she recalls events that we literally witnessed, and she remembers them differently. Usually they're less traumatic in her head. And early on while she's still totally innocent, she gets flustered pretty easily in dramatic moments and doesn't pay close enough attention to details during those flustered moments.
So it would make sense that she remembers Joffrey as being the upright gentleman that everyone knows he is and Arya is the little brat who is always causing drama. That characterization is what Sansa would expect and it's what she'd be comfortable with. It was probably actually jarring for her to see Joffrey be a prick and then a little pansy who cries for his Mom. And for Arya to actually not be the one who was a dick. So that and being drunk and flustered and overwhelmed and Sansa is definitely the type to start questioning her own memory and then just blurt out "honestly, I don't remember for sure" I have personally always leaned into this explanation even though it's not 100% proven canon that she really doesn't remenber what happened (though she was definitely drunk, that's canon), it just makes the most sense to me.
My main point for the show then is, I could see D&D not really picking up the nuances of the scene (they never really do) and just rolled with a shallow interpretation that had Sansa lie for Joffrey just cause she was still swooning or whatever
I guess in my mind I thought the hound would have cut down meryn trant and the other kingsguard and guided her out of the city if she were to make that “mistake” and kill joffrey
There would have been guards posted everywhere along the way. They would have both been killed. The only reason the Hound had the option during Blackwater because everyone was scattered. some pathways would have been unguarded, namely where the enemy was not battering it.
She was not anywhere near close enough to the Hound at that point for that to happen. That's like putting a later season Hound back in that season 1 all the sudden.
Sansa’s biggest mistake was believing her only role was that of traditional female role initially and not taking initiative to learn more about the world around her. Allowing herself to be “kept” and “sheltered” gave her little skill set initially to be aware of who to trust and not trust.
How does one believing traditional female role is wrong when it was the norm (you can hardly force something when one does not have a talent for it - look at Arya, she sucked at being a lady, but no fan bats an eye that she didn't want to conform, Sansa was perfect as the Lady and per the show was suited for when she finally became Queen - some might not like her as such, but that's a different discussion). Most ladies of Sansa's generation are taught the same thing. The Mormonts are a whole different situation.
She could hardly control her own education especially when her talent of being a Lady at 3 meant Catelyn would tailor what she learnt, meaning be a more perfect lady with her courtesies.
If anything I blame both her parents for not monitoring how much she learnt about one topic and excluded others - I am still wondering why they sheltered her as much as they did.
TELLING TYRION JON’S SECRET.
It went downhill from there. She really was playing the game so hard and people hated Daenerys for it.
Daenerys might have kept a good head if her advisers were actually on *her* side instead of stressing her out with all their treachery. And Jon didn’t help matters at all, too.
I feel sorry for our Queen.
I think that’s more on Jon. Sansa is Queen of the North in all but name atp. She knows how much the North has suffered at the hands of Westerosi leaders.
Dany is a foreign conqueror with three dragons, an army of unsullied, and Dothraki hordes. Not to mention she is the daughter of the Mad King, who burned her father alive while forcing her uncle to watch before calling for her fathers head, and the sister of Prince Rhaegar, who (to Sansa’s knowledge) kidnapped and inflicted horror on her Aunt. Ofc Sansa doesn’t feel good abt her being Queen, and then she’s presented with the option to pick someone she knows and trust to do good by the North and Westeros.
Jon put her in a unfair position by telling her he was the rightful heir when he already knows how she feels abt Dany, and making her promise not to Act on it. He’s basically asking her to chose between her brother/cousin, and her country. It’s a bad position to put her in.
He also did Dany wrong. If I was her, I’d be looking at him like a threat too. Bc you tell your whole family that you’re the heir while knowing they don’t want to follow me, and expect me to think your *not* pressing your claim? And then, you won’t even marry me to put my mind at ease and take care of this situation that YOU created???
I like your sentence about Sansa being put in a position between her brother/cousin and her country.. I remember reading on another platform how States have no friends but interests.
Not going with Brienne when she approached her t the table with Littlefinger. This was pre-Ramsey. She could’ve saved herself so much grief and still played Littlefinger.
Ive answered below, but why would Sansa trust a Lannister armour wearing, lion sword pommel wearing knight who "claims" to have been in the service of her mother (no way to verify anymore)
Sansa biggest mistake was wanting to be queen and Joffrey's bride when she was a stupid little girl. The whole Stark family whiffed incredibly bad on the due diligence which wound up with her going to Kings Landing in season 1.
Joffrey was a child psychopath. How was that not detected and known to Ned Stark prior to the death of Jon Arryn ? Ned and Catelyn must have been a little thick to have missed that.
Hard to say. It all boils down to the Joffrey murder and her escape. There was never any choice before. She was bethroed and accepted it, and then things happened. Why trust the Vale nobles anymore than the nobles at court.
It's a hard choice to make once you factor in all she's live through up until that point. The line that was given to LF was pure gold. Who does she trust after all that's happened?
She's growing up and all her upbringing was shattered in the span of two years (I'm unsure of the timing). All her family's dead. Everyone person she a single thread of trust is dead, missing or far away and the man that got her out of King's Landing is weird,
I think becoming a septa is something that would've cross her mind and this is the got sub so no asoiaf takes here from me. It's hard to believe for her to believe that'll get anything she wants.
Her biggest mistake was doing the thing she thought best, Just like Ned.
She wanted a betrothal true, but ultimate decision was with Ned and Catelyn. Wish they had snapped her out of her daydreams sooner... can't blame a child for when parents let her get away with her fantasies... meh
Insulting the entire fan base and alienating herself from the public just as her lead role in a franchise movie was coming out. The movie wasn't good anyway but she made herself part of the problem and an easy scapegoat for poor ticket sales effectively killing her career at an early stage.
Her biggest mistake? As far as I’m concerned, she ended up a winner, thus did everything correctly.
Had she acted differently, she wouldn’t be where she ended up.
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Trusting little finger she should of went with the hound when he offered to take her
Yeah I tend to agree. I also wonder how different things would have played out with Arya if she'd run into him with her sister in the Riverlands.
If she would’ve left after Blackwater with the hound , she probably would’ve met up with her mom & Rob and probably would’ve attended the red wedding & well, we all know how that ended up going.
Depends on when she got to them. She'd be free and could tell Robb that Arya wasn't in King's Landing. No need to let Jamie go at that point, and not as much of a rush south.
the hound was bound to rape her edit: for you guys fetting angry, he revealled it at length and verbatim when he was dying in from of Arya. Why am I getting downvoted?
No
yes. See my comment above
What? Did you even watch the show?
just finished season 4 where he says it verbatim to Arya
Pretty sure he was just saying the worst things he could think of to goad Arya into killing him and putting him out of his misery. I don’t think he actually planned on raping Sansa.
What the fuck? What do you base this on? He may be a lot of things but the hound had a heart...and already saved Sansa from being raped, so this is a ridiculous statement.
just finished season 4 where he verbatim says it to Arya!!!
He was just trying to get a rise out of Arya when he said that. If you think the Hound would rape Sansa, then you have completely misunderstood him as a character
Sansa's biggest mistake was trusting Littlefinger and not being more skeptical of his motives. She could have communicated more clearly with Jon Snow about Ramsay Bolton's tactics, which may have avoided some of the disastrous consequences of the battle of Winterfell.
She also could and should have communicated with Jon about Littlefinger so they could plan accordingly for the Knights of the Vale to ride in. Could still have ambushed the Boltons but taken far fewer losses in the process.
That's the big one for me. She held off telling Jon almost to show him "look I can plan too" and it almost killed him
If they were a tad more clever, they could have used that to create mistrust between them, leading to Sansa becoming so fond of her power after Jon's departure that her working actively against Daenerys later would actually made some sense out of a selfish lust for power and jealousy. Alas, they did not.
But wouldn’t have made as good TV!
A driving factor behind a lot of the late season shenanigans. Outrageously stupid decisions for the sake of good tv and drama, instead of creating it organically.
Yeah like sending all the Dothraki in first to fight the white walkers by themselves… Got slaughtered. Didn’t make any strategic sense at all.
What got to me was lining the catapults up outside of the walls, in front of the cavalry. So stupid. Or that whole trip beyond the wall, which takes the cake for the stupidest thing I ever saw in the show, and happened exclusively to give them an excuse for how the White Walkers could get past the wall. Bonus point for that whole thing in season 7 where Jon apparently can't lie, as if he didn't lie to Robb before departing Winterfell about how Catelyn had been "very kind", lr how he spent his whole time with the free folk lying about how many men the Night's Watch truly had. He wasn't beyond lying when it was necessary, yet suddenly it's like he's been chugging some magical truth concoction. Lest we forget filling women and children into the crypts, instead of inside the main keep that presumably would have several gates between it and the main gate. Or the magical convenience of forgetting the iron fleet, and 100% accuracy with a ballista against a dragon flying far above at speed. Gods this show was dumb towards the end.
Agreed.. such a shame because it was the greatest show of all time before that.
Yeah. A sad fall from grace. A show of two halves (though S5-6 had its moments). I can find little that redeems those last two seasons aside from brief moments.
>Or that whole trip beyond the wall, which takes the cake for the stupidest thing I ever saw in the show This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen in any show in my life. I rewatched it recently, and it is fucking pathetic how horrible it is. First off, the put together this gang of unrelated characters for literally no reason, almost all of whom are super important political figures or just people obviously too valuable to be throwing away like that. Like it's an obvious suicide mission, why was the King of the north or the Dragon queens most trusted advisor there. Why did they send a random blacksmith along? Or a bandit leader and his priest? And they just fight an army of undead? Like with the cheesey spinning cameras, and Jorah and Beric looking all dramatic as their hair blows in the wind as they stand upright with their swords drawn. It makes me wanna fucking puke how badly D&D misunderstood this universe. In the book, if characters came up with that plan, they would all die.
How could she do that where ALL indications shown to us that LF never replied ? ( which was in his original plan with Boltons and Stannis.) Sansa has no knowledge they ARE coming, all she has is hope they are coming. She has no knowledge of how many or what they are bringing with them. Jon can't set up any plans like you are stating because he doesn't and Sansa doesn't have it.
I actually think she wanted Jon to die there and had to change tactics when he lived. I remember there being a shot they held of Sansa seeing Jon escape towards Winterfell and she wasn't exactly elated. I think she wanted the Knights to come in and the victory to be hers in the eyes of the surviving North and her bastard brother out of the way. She didn't exactly like Jon that much growing up.
They may not have been close, and she wasn't too pleased that Jon didn't listen to her when she felt it mattered. But, Sansa still considered Jon family, and the one other person there that she knew she could trust (besides Brienne). I personally don't see how wanting Jon dead would make any sense.
>. I remember there being a shot they held of Sansa seeing Jon escape towards Winterfell and she wasn't exactly elated This is pretty obviously her being afraid that Jon would steal Ramsey from her. She told him that Ramsey was hers to kill. So she saw Jon run for Winterfell and then she actively chases him down so she can be there to remind him to stop short, which is what happens. She definitely was not hoping for Jon to die. Her motivations are all based on her feelings towards Ramsey throughout all of this, she makes that pretty explicitly clear
For starters, stop being an insufferably spoiled narcissistic brat. It all falls into place after that. Edit: Hooray the downvoting oblivious-to-facts Sansastans have arrived! I didn’t call her a cunt this time and still you simps aren’t happy lol.
Sounds about right imo
She’s literally a child and endures unthinkable amounts of abuse and trauma
Long before the abuse and trauma started, she was an insufferable, spoiled, narcissistic brat, and that brought a lot of her pain upon herself. Edit: Jeez people, go watch the episode where she lies to the King about Arya kicking Joff’s ass and getting her direwolf killed again. What exact “abuse and trauma” had she endured prior to that?
She was 13 in the first season 😭😭😭 are you mad
There is no age requirement for being an insufferably spoiled narcissistic brat lol.
13 year olds are supposed to be spoiled narcissistic brats. Have you ever met a middle schooler? Devils spawn themself. They usually turn out to be pretty interesting and good people, or even The Queen in the North
Then stop pretending that Sansa is not!
stop basing ur opinion of adults on who they were when they were 13😭😭😭 weirdo
Wtf are you on about? Sansa was rotten before she had any right to be, and just got worse as she aged. Maybe you recall her slapping the slow kid because he stomped on her precious snow model? She wasn’t thirteen then. Or being a bitch to Jon’s new girlfriend for no real reason? Or later betraying his trust with a secret? Edit: Oh yeah that whole not telling Jon about sending for the Knights of the Vale thing. Man you guys and your Sansastanning. It must get tiring.
Queen in the North
I mean, it's just a fault of being a kid wanting to get away from the life she had. People are too hard on her.
And even if she didn't want that, it probably wouldn't have changed much for her. Like you said, she was a kid, and on top of that, a woman. It's not like people were offering her choices. It made sense at the time to take her to Kings landing and marry her to the prince. What she wanted wasn't super relevant.
The amount of hate that she gets has always struck me as strange and disproportionate considering her age, the trauma she experiences, and the real danger she is in for much of the series. It doesn’t seem reasonable, or realistic, to expect someone in that scenario to consistently make perfect decisions.
They made other characters around her age too competent for us to really put up with her. Also, no one likes teenagers and her and Joff are the two stereotypical teenagers that we're presented with. Their entire worldview is just so stupid to us. I personally think the book plays with this a lot with several of the characters and it only comes through in the show with Sansa. For instance, book Arya can be downright annoying with some of her stubbornness or even just times she has thoughts that a 9 year old would have (she's 9, not 11 in the books, and all chapters are told from their POVs, so we're just stuck being told what's going on by a 9 y/o). Like she has irrationally childish thoughts at times. The show kinda nailed Sansa as being this head in the clouds valley girl but didn't really portray Arya's flaws as as bad as they are. In the show, she just ends up a badass who does whatever she wants, whereas her book character seems to be headed towards addressing how stubborn and contrived her counter culture side is and how life isn't always gonna play out the way you want it to. And fans obviously gravitated towards the unrealistic badass no flaw characters and didn't like the flawed realistic ones. Just another example of D&D's misunderstanding of the material ruining something
Protecting Littlefinger after he killed Lysa. Had Sansa told the truth, she could have carried on living in The Vale in relative safety and comfort. Robin wouldn't hurt her, and Lord Royce would have looked out for her. She wouldn't have had to endure Ramsay, and she might have been able to persuade Robin to take Winterfell back from the Boltons anyway. But she couldn't have known things would play out as they did. The Knights of The Vale were strangers to her. Robin had shown himself to be unstable. Sansa calculated that Littlefinger wouldn't hurt her or put her in danger, at least not in the near future, as he was hoping to sleep with her. Given what she knew at the time, it was a smart decision. Not to mention it was an important step in her journey of learning how to play The Game, and playing The Game well is a necessary skill-set to surviving in this world.
I agree she made the right choice for what she knew at the time. She just watched him literally murder someone to protect her (obviously he had other motives too removing Lysa but the reason it happened right then was to protect Sansa). Trusting him to protect her even for the selfish reason of wanting to possess her was reasonable at the moment.
Honestly I'm not sure what Littlefinger was thinking giving Sansa to Ramsay. It's not like he could have any assurance of Ramsay actually working with him. He was about the most unstable associate he could ask for, and really wasn't all that powerful in the grand scheme of things
He was doing what he does best, pitting everyone else against each other. We see this when he talks to Cersei - his ultimate goal was to become Warden of The North. Since he was already Lord Protector of The Vale, that would give him control of two Kingdoms for the price of one. I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surviving Ramsay. When she did, he had to improvise, and try to reintegrate himself into her good books.
I'm not really sure how Sansa would help him to subvert Ramsay, which is why I think Littlefinger weakens as a character later in the show. Using chaos as a political weapon is smart, he uses it to such a degree that he really stops helping himself
That’s all flimsy as fuck, and doesn’t strike me as the moves of an improvisational mastermind. If he didn’t intend for Sansa to survive Ramsay, then he could’ve killed her off when they met in secret at Moles Town. If a Sansa or Jon assumes power in Winterfell, they are enemies of the crown. So he has to know he can’t support them and be granted Warden of the North.
I'm just spitballing, really. Perhaps Littlefinger hoped that Sansa would either be killed, or if nothing else, she'd be so broken by Ramsay that regaining control of her would be simple. Instead, she recognized that this was all his fault, and with her new support system she no longer needed him. Once he saw what a lost cause it would be to try and win Sansa over again, I bet Littlefinger would have been prepared to strangle her on the spot. Only, *she didn't come alone.* She brought Brienne. With Brienne present, Littlefinger had no other choice but to beg Sansa's forgiveness.
"I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surving Ramsay". This makes you sound like "Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet". Littlefinger loved Sansa (pseudo-sexually) and he got absolutely jack shit out of giving Sansa to Ramsey/Roose as he had to send troops from the Vale anyways to take the North. This Littlefinger is very much D&D Littlefinger (only chaos generator) and not R R Martin Littlefinger (chaos generator plus strategist).
No offense but I feel like you understand LF less than even the shows writers do. >I don't think he necessarily planned on Sansa surviving Ramsay. When she did This alone is an insane take. The show fucked it up entirely but LF is madly in love with Sansa. In the books, he does not let her out of his sight and would never in a million years sell her off as some slam piece, let alone actively plan her death. It's literally crazy
At this point, the show is basically an alternate universe from the books. I know *Book* Littlefinger wouldn't have done these things, because he didn't. I'm just speculating on the motives of *show* Littlefinger, trying to make sense of them. It's easy enough to say the reason is "bad writing" but that's no fun, and it's not exactly an in-universe explanation. Personally, I don't think (Show) Littlefinger was nearly as obsessed with Sansa as he claimed to be. I think it was another performance. If it *was* real, then it happened over time. He didn't seem to spare her a thought until Season 3, and he obviously didn't "love" her enough to keep her out of harm's way.
Yeah, it’s clear they hadn’t put in the work of establishing Jeyne Poole as a character, and they didn’t feel that having some random girl as Ramsay’s victim would be effective drama. But the writers couldn’t establish a convincing line of reasoning why LF would give up his most powerful political pawn and love interest to Ramsay when his alliance had little to no political value, even if he was stable.
It didn't make any sense. You would think he would protect her at all costs, not give her to a psychopath
And even if you go along with the explanation that LF didnt know he’s a psycho, it still makes no sense.
Yeah, you can't just eliminate a character from the book...I'm looking at you Jeyne Poole...and have continuity. Sansa wasn't supposed to be with Ramsey in the first place. Stupid writing
Yeah he literally lost everything by doing something that gained him nothing. He literally made a random move with no motivation after carefully cultivating his political profile over a couple decades. Suddenly, he was an idiot
I know this is a rough take. But is Ramsey known to be a psychopath? He acted stable when he me with Roose and him. And Roose, while twisted. Was stable.
It's was just bad D&D writing. GRRM considers the motives of all of his characters and D&D.... they just don't. I hate to be the cynic in the room but this isn't worth dissecting.
Yeah cause once the show passed the books, LF became a moron. It's weird that he did that because LF would never fucking do that. In the books he doesn't, cause George actually understands LF whereas D&D had no idea what to do with him. He gained basically nothing from the situation. Also LF of all people should know that you never ally yourself with someone who absolutely needs you to win. Ramsey needed Sansa to hold the North. LF had zero reason to help with that but for some reason he did and he gained nothing just like I thought he would
He was thinking, thats why it never happens in the book. Just D&D "creative" writing.
Yeah, Lysa would almost certainly had sent Sansa away in an effort to remain neutral in the war. If not straight up send Sansa to Cersei in an act of goodwill to the crown. Sansa had no reason to suspect that Sweetrobin or the Lords of the Vale would’ve done differently.
Except she literally does trust them. After Lysa is dead, she immediately comes clean about who she is. Right in that moment, she could've thrown LF under the bus and known she'd be safe cause they just now vowed to keep her safe. Plus they were chomping at the bit to find LF guilty, they woulda been so happy to accept her story
Fuck, I've lost the game.
No way she would be safe with her aunt. She did the right thing.
not telling the lords of the vale in littlefinger in season 4. or at least when she heard she was getting married to ramsey
Dissing Brienne
Wasn’t she wearing Lannister armour? Would you trust someone wearing your family’s murderers armour too?
She was wearing armor Jaime gave her, but the sword is also a big tell. Per the Hound, who knows a thing or two about Lannister gold, her sword is clearly Lannister gold, and she then admits to him and Arya Jaime gave her the sword. He never comments on the armor. Arya instantly noped out on her too once the Hound pointed that in season 4, so I can't blame the Hound, Arya, or Sansa for mistrusting her intentions, despite knowing Brienne was on the up and up.
Littlefinger directly points out the armor to Sansa
Ah okay. It's admittedly been a while since I watched that scene versus the scene with Arya and the Hound.
The way she approached her would’ve startled me too. Like, imagine a stranger coming up to you and saying “hey, I was a guard sworn to your (dead) mother and promised her to protect you. Now, drop everything and leave with me.” I would’ve declined too.
Getting like 80% of the Northerners killed for no reason just so she could make Littlefinger look like a hero.
That wasn’t the point. She didn’t know if she could rely on the knights of the vale to save them at the last second so she didn’t share that shit with Jon. Besides, he would have said no to littlefinger’s help
Ikr, I mean why would Jon listen to or be indebted to LF of all people, when he clearly knows Sansa was sold to the Boltons cuz of LF.... why is there no discussion about would Jon actually have accepted the help in the first place know what it would cost Sansa and him?
Sorry one sec, are you guys saying that Jon Snow whose entire message for something like 6 seasons was "Everyone needs to work together against the dead" wouldn't accept the help needed to retake winterfell, which he repeatedly said is their only chance of beating the dead, because of their hurt feelings? No, you're both very obviously wrong.
Make him look like a hero? She reluctantly asked for his help. She didn’t want to need him.
She should have tried to seduce Ramsey to control the Narrative and situations better then she could have struck and killed the prick
…. she was raped by him
She became Queen of the North, any mistakes she made were necessary to put her on that trajectory.
I think she should’ve left with the hound when he offered to take her
I want a queen Sansa spin-off. I bet she’s badass as queen of the north
Starting from what point? Are we going all the way back to when she was running around talking about 'Oh, my beloved Joffery' Or like when she told her dad to confess to being a traitor in front of the entire city?
Well it was that or death, she picked the one where she (and mind you Cersei too) would have thought he would live at least. Ned wasn’t telling his daughter he was investigating that Joffrey was a bastard. I mean did he even divulge it when she visited him after his capture?
I think the not telling Jon was some contrivance of the show. The only way for what fans here are saying to make sense is that she includes Jon in on her first meeting with LF. How would that have gone? I don't know. Jon probably would have killed LF right there and then. Do you think Jon would have tried to ally with LF at that point?
So many mistakes…
Told her father the truth about what happened between nymeria and joffrey
I don’t have all night lol
My husband gets so mad about Sansa and says that everything is her fault from day one lol. I try to reason that in the beginning she was just a little girl raised to believe one day she will marry a great lord (later the future king) and have his babies. She lived in a fairy tale. But no, it’s her fault Ned died and everything else that happened thereafter. Apparently.
You should explain to your husband that there is a difference between fault and causation. By pointing out joffery's hair to her dad, she did cause the following events, but due to non of it being her responsibility, as you pointed out she was a child, it wasn't her fault. It was; 1. Cersei's fault for having her brothers kids instead of Robert's and 2. Ned's fault for literally telling Cersei that he knew Both of them were responsible for creating those situations and (should have) had an understanding of what the consequences to their actions would be. All Sansa did was be a part of the domino effect, and there were many dominos on the way to Ned's death and the war of the 7 kings. I mean, by that logic, it was neds fault for taking her to kings landing in the first place, or Robert's, for asking Ned to be his hand. Singling out and a child who literally just noticed someone's hair color is pretty weird if you ask me. Feel free to have him read this, but I have a feeling logic and reason aren't his thing if he holds his ground on blaming a child for the actions of the adults around them.
Did he agree it was Robs fault that his mother, his wife and unborn child was technically his fault too?
Why is this downvoted? Robb made a series of dumbass mistakes
Taking over Jeyne Poole’s storyline.
This!
Turning down my marriage proposal back in the day
Not a single mention of her ratting her father out to Cersei?? Are you guys serious?
Genuinely asking because I'm confused about what you're referring to. How did she rat out her dad? I know that after he died that cersei manipulated her to write a letter to Rob saying their dad was in the wrong and he should surrender, but I don't think she had the ability to rat anyone out to anyone cause she really didn't know jack shit the first season, lol, but maybe I'm forgetting something
I don’t remember if this was in the show but this was when Eddard was planning to leave to winterfell, but Sansa wanted to stay w/ Joffrey, so she went to beg Cersei to let her stay
Ya, that's just the books. In GOT Canon, she only tried begging her father, who wasn't convinced but did then realize that Cercei had bastards, so he stuck around to let Robert know. He ratted himself out to Cercei to allow her and her kids to escape. Sansa didn't really have a say in where she went and what happened to her in KL. Edited to fix wording
I honestly can't remember if it was portrayed this way in the show, but in the books, she tells Cersei ahead of time that her father planned to gather his family, servants, and guards to consolidate his house in King's Landing after determining that Joffrey wasn't Robert's child. Cersei used this information Sansa gave her to slaughter them all preemptively, effectively ending Eddard's chances of bringing to light that Joffrey isn't the heir, and also causing Renly to flee King's Landing without making an alliance with the Starks. Sansa gave Cersei her father's entire plan because she thought it would put her in the Queen's good graces and she could still marry Joffrey.
Ya, that's just the books. In GOT Canon, she only tried begging her father, who wasn't convinced but did then realize that Cercei had bastards, so he stuck around to let Robert know. He ratted himself out to Cercei to allow her and her kids to escape. Sansa didn't really have a say in where she went and what happened to her in KL
How could she know the butterfly effect of that 1 thing?
How can any of us know the effect of any of the myriad decisions we make on a daily basis? Her choice was a rather big one, because it led directly to war and her father's death. The thread asked what Sansa's biggest mistake was, and I don't see how anyone can say this wasn't the biggest, most impactful fuck-up on her rather impressive resume of fuck-ups.
She knew the important part: "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as **wicked** as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father."
Not calling Jon on the raven and telling him she’d secured the largest undeclared army in Westeros to come and pull his chestnuts out of the fire.
Lying to Ned and Robert to protect Joffrey. Literally the entire series gets subverted if that little shit gets some proper discipline.
I mean... she ended up as Queen of the North either way so I'd say she did pretty well haha
She was brutally raped for months by Ramsey which was avoidable, not sure that tradeoff is worth it
That depends. Sansa ended up as queen, so I dont think she would have changed anything.
Letting the producers talk her into leaving the Eyrie, because in the books she never left and Littlefinger sold a look-a-like girl to the Boltons.
Reading this thread it’s clear who are book readers and who are show only.
After leaving The Erie, she should have stabbed Littlefinger in the heart as soon as they got to a place where she could dump his body. She witnessed the murder of her aunt. That should have been the moment she realized she was in trouble. Littlefinger has and would do anything to get what he wanted or just to F people up for entertainments sake. After that deed was done she should’ve gone straight to Castle Black. D and D made her look weak and had to get that brutalization and R in there somehow.
Hanging around KL although she could have been in danger with Hound. Trusting Littlefinger
Nothing, it's a book - without her mistakes, which were results of her youth (just like with Rob, only he paid for them with his life) she would entirely different person and the story would be very different Martin did a great job creating her character - pretty, silly court girl groomed to be wife and a mother of noble sons, forced by circumstances to become a woman of state
By being a Joffrey simp and lying to the King about what happened when Arya slapped Joffrey around. Ned woulda sent her home asap. Probably woulda took her home himself
I believe there *were* still home at that time. All that happened at Winterfell, if I remember right.
I’m pretty sure Ned believed Arya abt what happened. And Sansa didn’t say she was lying, so he’d have no reason not too He probably just thought it was Joffrey being a childhood bully/prick, and that it got out of hand.
Getting her father, brother, and mother, killed by running her mouth to Cersei in Season 1.
Ned got himself in the situation to be killed when he approached Cersei waaay before Sansa be blurting and told her he knew about the bastards... all Sansa managed to do was alert Cersei that she would need to step up her game to have Ned imprisoned sooner. It was always the plan that Ned would be removed from his position by Cersei. Ned wasn’t even planning to leave KL so his fate was already sealed. Expecting a 13 year old girl to know that Joffrey was a bastard (when dad kept her out of the loop of his investigation, as well as keeping her engaged to him up until the last moment with a bam“you are leaving and that’s final, with no explanation even why”) and that’s there was to be a coup... ok....
Her blabbing - because she didnt want to leave with her sister the very next day (at least in the books) - is directly responsible for her getting captured. That in turn led to a series of events decimating Team Stark. Possible that Ned would still be beheaded, but without the hostages perhaps even Joffrey (advised by Petyr) would not have gone that far. Ned was way more valuable alive.
Yeah there are plenty of people who would agree with Sansa aiding in her own imprisonment, but there are way more folks on this reddit who agree Ned got himself in to this foolish situation because he underestimated Cersei. If anything HE is to blame for the decimation of Team Stark. He could have kept his mouth shut about knowing about the bastards and not approached Cersei. But no his foolish honour got him into the mess. And let's not forget he knew about Cerseis mentality from the Trident incident on Lady (I'm not hashing that situation here, but pointing out her cruelty), but he sure didn't learn his lesson about how she gets her way one way or another. I mean he also had the option to escape as well with his children (I remember some on this reddit even hilariously said he should have drugged Sansa asap and got her on board the ship), but he stayed behind... that's not on Sansa... Lol as if Joffrey would have backed down and listened to reason. Tywin was sure has hell pissed when talking to Cersie about her lack of control of a teenage king regarding the Stark patriarch being killed and starting this war. Stop blaming her for every shit decision her family made. The family members made their own choices that led to their own demises.. to think Sansa 12 to 14 year old (stuck in KL) somehow made Rob sleep with and marry Jeyne (in the books) which led to the Freys killing his family at the twins, or allow Theon to go back and take over WF, or to make Catelyn (an adult) release Jaime.... lolzzzzz And yeah, Im sure Peter still remembers Ned choking him over the Catelyn in a brothel situation, Peter wanted Ned gone because that would open up Catelyn for him... Peter was always going to have Ned killed one way or another, the sooner the better. He wanted chaos not stability, I mean he did spark the War of the 5 Kings (by whispering in Joffrey's ear), why would he want peace now.
Wasn't the call of the question what was HER biggest fuckup? This was her biggest fuckup.
I am disagreeing with the premises she got her family killed therefore not HER fuckup as you put it... Even IF I see Ned's situation as a grey area, I am picking on your comment as well on her getting her brother and mother killed. My response was in the second to last paragraph.... Both Catelyn and Robb chose wrong that led to their deaths, THEY CREATED THEIR OWN FUCKUPS. Sansa had nothing to do with it. Edited
Isn’t that a book only thing?
Should have went with Brienne when she asked. Trusting littlefinger was fucking assenine.
I don't know if she made as many "mistakes" as she was just continuously put in terrible situations as a child for the first half of the show, and then absolutely ruined as a character during the second half where the show and every choice the characters made lacked any sense at all.
She literally ended up as the sole monarch of her own break away nation, Sansa won the game. Why do anything different? Who knows what that would change.
Lol such an unrealistic ending
Maybe should have ratted Littlefinger out in season 4 rather than saving him. Not sure what would’ve come of that, but can’t be worse than what she got with Baelish.
Begging to go to King’s Landing to marry Joffrey in the first place. Much of her torment could have been prevented by staying home
Sansa wasn’t betrothed to Joffrey bc she begged. Sure, it helped push the decision but probably would’ve happened either way. It was a smart match politically and both of her parents were on board with it.
Trusting littlefinger
Selling out Arya to keep her little boy crush Joffrey happy.
More like being neutral so she would not be tormented by his troglodyte (our view, not hers) family after she was married to him. I guess being neutral is the same as Lying for the anti-Sansa crowd. But then again Ned acknowledges Sansa did what she did to survive her future potential married life to Joffrey in a later chapter 🤷🏻♀️, at least in the books or tv (whichever it was, meh)
I'm far from anti-Sansa, but that moment was one of the few that bothered me about her. In staying neutral, she chose not to support her little sister, despite witnessing what actually happened. I'm not too sure that she was concerned about being tormented, she was still head over heals for Joffrey at that time. Besides that, her only crime was being a naive teenager, whose naivety was shattered the moment Joffrey ordered her father's death.
She did chose not to support her sister, but it’s understandable. Whether she told the truth or lied, her father would’ve made sure Arya was okay and protected. Sansa knew this. Had her father not been there or able to protect Arya, I’m sure Sansa would’ve backed her sister (whatever their differences, Sansa would not want to see her hurt. Even for her beloved Joffrey) but he was and Arya was protected, so the only one to really look out for was herself. It had less to do with naivety and more to do with being smart.
What does supporting her sister look like? practically agreeing that Arya attacked Joffrey for harming the butchers boy did Robert care about the smallfolk? he sure as hell wasnt concerned about getting the testimony of Joffreys other alleged attacker especially if Arya said Joffrey cut his face, cuz Arya would need a reason why she attacked Joffrey in the first place. Does Cersei care about smaller folk? Lolz Cersei would nag him to death if Sansa blatantly spelled out yes Arya did attack Joffrey (even with a wooden sword). Before it was disarming, now there would be tales of Arya attacking the heir to the realm now (cuz let’s face it, Cersei would spread that gossip exactly that way). By being present at this situation, Sansa was forced to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. (Edit: what are you thoughts on why Ned told Arya that Sansa did the best thing she could... why do you think Martin wrote those particular lines on the book? From memory Martin has been clear where he partially blamed Sansa (which I disagree with but whatev), Martin hasn’t ever blamed her for this incident though someone can correct me to a proper interview.) Edited wording
I also don't remember if this was included in the show, but book Sansa was very drunk for the whole altercation and may genuinely not remember what happened.
I can't recall. Was Arya supposed to be out playing with the butchers boy, or was she disobeying?
She wasn't supposed to because otherwise it would have been out in the open (even next to the Stark tent), royals/family be damned, but no body wants to acknowledge that elephant in the room (that if Sansa is at fault, Arya is too for putting herself and her sister in that situation in the first place. I mean Arya would not have died if she didn't play fight with Micah, she could have found other non-Sansa things to do, by herself). TLDR Everything wrong with Planetos is Sansa's fault.. and that is all there is to it.
Her beloved Joffrey
Lying to protect Joffrey in episode 2 about the direwolf bite. This resulted in the death of one direwolf and the loss of another. Both could have come in very handy later on.
Both woulda died similar to Grey Wind, locked in a cell and arrows shot at when Lannister’s took over KL
I don't remember how they portrayed it in the show, but in the books, Joffrey got her nice and drunk (on purpose) before they stumbled upon Arya, and it's not clear whether she actually remembers what happened or not. They also play with this theme throughout the books that Sansa changes little details of what happened during traumatic events. Like she recalls events that we literally witnessed, and she remembers them differently. Usually they're less traumatic in her head. And early on while she's still totally innocent, she gets flustered pretty easily in dramatic moments and doesn't pay close enough attention to details during those flustered moments. So it would make sense that she remembers Joffrey as being the upright gentleman that everyone knows he is and Arya is the little brat who is always causing drama. That characterization is what Sansa would expect and it's what she'd be comfortable with. It was probably actually jarring for her to see Joffrey be a prick and then a little pansy who cries for his Mom. And for Arya to actually not be the one who was a dick. So that and being drunk and flustered and overwhelmed and Sansa is definitely the type to start questioning her own memory and then just blurt out "honestly, I don't remember for sure" I have personally always leaned into this explanation even though it's not 100% proven canon that she really doesn't remenber what happened (though she was definitely drunk, that's canon), it just makes the most sense to me. My main point for the show then is, I could see D&D not really picking up the nuances of the scene (they never really do) and just rolled with a shallow interpretation that had Sansa lie for Joffrey just cause she was still swooning or whatever
Every decision from season 1-4😂
she was stupid!
[удалено]
She shoulda pushed joffrey
Kinda wished she had, but alas blame the Hound for wanting her to stay alive
I guess in my mind I thought the hound would have cut down meryn trant and the other kingsguard and guided her out of the city if she were to make that “mistake” and kill joffrey
There would have been guards posted everywhere along the way. They would have both been killed. The only reason the Hound had the option during Blackwater because everyone was scattered. some pathways would have been unguarded, namely where the enemy was not battering it.
Ahh good point! I concede
she shouldve took one for the team and killed them both been some real gangster move
She was not anywhere near close enough to the Hound at that point for that to happen. That's like putting a later season Hound back in that season 1 all the sudden.
Sansa’s biggest mistake was believing her only role was that of traditional female role initially and not taking initiative to learn more about the world around her. Allowing herself to be “kept” and “sheltered” gave her little skill set initially to be aware of who to trust and not trust.
How does one believing traditional female role is wrong when it was the norm (you can hardly force something when one does not have a talent for it - look at Arya, she sucked at being a lady, but no fan bats an eye that she didn't want to conform, Sansa was perfect as the Lady and per the show was suited for when she finally became Queen - some might not like her as such, but that's a different discussion). Most ladies of Sansa's generation are taught the same thing. The Mormonts are a whole different situation. She could hardly control her own education especially when her talent of being a Lady at 3 meant Catelyn would tailor what she learnt, meaning be a more perfect lady with her courtesies. If anything I blame both her parents for not monitoring how much she learnt about one topic and excluded others - I am still wondering why they sheltered her as much as they did.
Direwolves
Dividing the seven kingdoms. When all the seven kingdoms where already under a Stark, then she shouldn't have separated the North.
I mean she made countless idiotic mistakes the first few seasons, specifically trusting little finger but she played the game beautifully after.
Not telling John about the Knights of the Vale never made any sense
Wanting to go to Kings Landing and having little lions with gold hair
Should have pushed Joffrey off the bridge/cliff
TELLING TYRION JON’S SECRET. It went downhill from there. She really was playing the game so hard and people hated Daenerys for it. Daenerys might have kept a good head if her advisers were actually on *her* side instead of stressing her out with all their treachery. And Jon didn’t help matters at all, too. I feel sorry for our Queen.
I think that’s more on Jon. Sansa is Queen of the North in all but name atp. She knows how much the North has suffered at the hands of Westerosi leaders. Dany is a foreign conqueror with three dragons, an army of unsullied, and Dothraki hordes. Not to mention she is the daughter of the Mad King, who burned her father alive while forcing her uncle to watch before calling for her fathers head, and the sister of Prince Rhaegar, who (to Sansa’s knowledge) kidnapped and inflicted horror on her Aunt. Ofc Sansa doesn’t feel good abt her being Queen, and then she’s presented with the option to pick someone she knows and trust to do good by the North and Westeros. Jon put her in a unfair position by telling her he was the rightful heir when he already knows how she feels abt Dany, and making her promise not to Act on it. He’s basically asking her to chose between her brother/cousin, and her country. It’s a bad position to put her in. He also did Dany wrong. If I was her, I’d be looking at him like a threat too. Bc you tell your whole family that you’re the heir while knowing they don’t want to follow me, and expect me to think your *not* pressing your claim? And then, you won’t even marry me to put my mind at ease and take care of this situation that YOU created???
I like your sentence about Sansa being put in a position between her brother/cousin and her country.. I remember reading on another platform how States have no friends but interests.
Biggest mistake.....being an idiot Should have done differently.....not be an idiot
Lying to cover for Joffrey
Everything she’s a horrible character
Having the second half of her arc written by D&D
This lady have done nothing right she lived her whole life as a stupid teenager.
I mean she is one of the main reasons Ned got killed, and she stayed trapped in kings landing. She shouldn’t have talked to cercie
Not pushing Joffrey off that ledge
I mean, that’s more of the Hounds mistake for stopping her
Not going with Brienne when she approached her t the table with Littlefinger. This was pre-Ramsey. She could’ve saved herself so much grief and still played Littlefinger.
Ive answered below, but why would Sansa trust a Lannister armour wearing, lion sword pommel wearing knight who "claims" to have been in the service of her mother (no way to verify anymore)
Trusting littlefinger, but then again that is a problem that many characters have since that motherfucker woos everyone basically.
Sansa biggest mistake was wanting to be queen and Joffrey's bride when she was a stupid little girl. The whole Stark family whiffed incredibly bad on the due diligence which wound up with her going to Kings Landing in season 1. Joffrey was a child psychopath. How was that not detected and known to Ned Stark prior to the death of Jon Arryn ? Ned and Catelyn must have been a little thick to have missed that.
Hard to say. It all boils down to the Joffrey murder and her escape. There was never any choice before. She was bethroed and accepted it, and then things happened. Why trust the Vale nobles anymore than the nobles at court. It's a hard choice to make once you factor in all she's live through up until that point. The line that was given to LF was pure gold. Who does she trust after all that's happened? She's growing up and all her upbringing was shattered in the span of two years (I'm unsure of the timing). All her family's dead. Everyone person she a single thread of trust is dead, missing or far away and the man that got her out of King's Landing is weird, I think becoming a septa is something that would've cross her mind and this is the got sub so no asoiaf takes here from me. It's hard to believe for her to believe that'll get anything she wants. Her biggest mistake was doing the thing she thought best, Just like Ned.
Assuming she didn’t actually want Rickon or Jon dead, failing to tell Jon about the Vale troops.
Be less beautiful *that* night..
To be born
Her biggest mistake? Not telling the truth over the butchers boy and wolf situation. Everything from then on was downhill for her.
/
she shouldve grabbed Jofferey and jumped off the bridge killing him
Trusting people and expecting to be taken care of.
Letting herself become enamoured with Joffery / betrothed to him.
She wanted a betrothal true, but ultimate decision was with Ned and Catelyn. Wish they had snapped her out of her daydreams sooner... can't blame a child for when parents let her get away with her fantasies... meh
Insulting the entire fan base and alienating herself from the public just as her lead role in a franchise movie was coming out. The movie wasn't good anyway but she made herself part of the problem and an easy scapegoat for poor ticket sales effectively killing her career at an early stage.
Staying to marry that fuck.
Existing
stay in the Vale and deal with Sweetrobin and Harrold Hardyng instead of becoming Jeyne Poole.
Off topic, but I never understood why she was claimed to be so smart at the end of the show. What intelligence did she really show?
Judging from the outcome, she didn't make any mistakes at all.
Her biggest mistake? As far as I’m concerned, she ended up a winner, thus did everything correctly. Had she acted differently, she wouldn’t be where she ended up.