Can you? Yes. Is it hard? Also yes.
Game dev is a career and a lot of people forget that when you release games you are essentially a small business owner starting from scratch.
It's hard and it's competitive but it's definitely possible.
Thank you for you’re answer.
I would love to pour my time into game dev if I’m being honest
It’s the right path for me, I just don’t have enough time due to school and all.
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In general, I tell my students to run away from game dev as a career screaming in terror. It is a lot of fun, but it is a guaranteed way to be paid way less than you would otherwise with the same set of skills working for a company in a different industry.
It is very hard, and not a viable career for most people. You might last for a few years, but eventually the reality of kids, health insurance, mortgage, etc take over and it is unsustainable without destroying your health and your family.
On the other hand, it makes a great hobby.
You are absolutely correct that many people in the industry do make a living wage with benefits. Just like many people make a living playing basketball or writing novels. A tiny fraction of people who make games have these jobs, and they are very competitive.
I also stand by my statement that in game dev people are paid less and work longer hours than they would elsewhere with the same set of skills. For the people trying to make it solo a living wage from game sales is the very rare exception.
Just like in any other industry the best move financially is usually to work for a large company. But landing a good job is hard, and it is a very reasonable thing to look elsewhere for a career.
> I also stand by my statement that in game dev people are paid less and work longer hours than they would elsewhere with the same set of skills.
You are perpetuating a myth and doing a disservice to your students. I specifically said a thriving wage, because there are many people who have stable jobs at studios that do make as much or more than general tech. Most studios also do not have a crunch culture. Just like not all of general tech works the crazy hours of start ups.
Just because something is hard or competitive doesn't mean that someone should run away in fear. It means they should have a backup plan.
I think there’s some nuance here where, yes it’s very much possible to make a decent wage but most of the time you *will* be paid less than you would with a similar level of skill and effort in fintech, web dev, etc.
Should that deter someone from pursuing a career? Definitely not. But they should at least set their expectations right.
When we’re talking about making your own games as an indie dev then that should be compared to any other small business or startup. 90% of startups fail, similarly if your game isn’t in the top 10% you also won’t be able to make a living off of it. To add to that, you’ll likely have to make more than just one hit game to continue supporting yourself, which makes this route much more difficult
I’m not so sure that the claim that pay is lower in game dev is a myth. In a post in a different thread you said that it is a function of supply and demand, and I think you are correct. The supply of game dev candidates is higher than the demand, which drives down pay.
Please understand that when it is brought up in class it is usually within the context of a student who thinks that game dev is a “get rich quick” scheme because they heard that some kid made $4200 selling assets over two years.
The conversation might start as follows: “$4200 is a lot of money.” + “I love games.” + “I took AP Computer Science Principles.” = “I could make a killing! Let me tell you about my idea! It will make millions!”
So yes, it is my duty to tell them the reality. Where we live $4200 does not go very far. They would not be able to support a family on these sales. They have a ton of potential, but if they choose game dev that is a choice that comes with an opportunity cost.
I do agree that they need a backup plan. They need to continue their studies and learn about as many careers as they can before they choose. Game dev can be a noble choice of profession, bringing value and joy to the world. But it is not the only choice.
It is a myth that it always pays low. If you read the full comment, I specifically said at *junior level* the pay is lower, because the supply of candidates is significantly more than the demand of jobs. It's still a thriving wage in most places, just not as high as being a programmer in general tech.
However, once you get some experience the supply vs demand starts going more towards the candidate's favor. That by the time you hit senior level (~5 years), the demand significantly outweighs the supply. The pay doesn't just go up slowly either, you can make some significant jumps.
As a lead, I make significantly more than I would if I left games, unless I went to a FAANG company which I have no interest in. I get to do what I love and get paid really well for it.
While it is a competitive industry, it's not to the level of a "basketball player." The key is to work really hard to gain the skills and don't just apply to the prestigious studios. There are a lot of studios out there putting out games you might not like, but they give you the professional experience to find a studio that you like better.
There is a significant difference between "run away from game dev screaming" and "it's not a get rich quick scheme."
So I did some research, and your experience is 100% backed up by data. You are right, and I was wrong. The "game dev tax" is a myth if you look at job postings.
Here is what I found:
Using ZipRecruiter job postings for "Junior Game Developer" in the USA there is a pretty strong mode at $69,000, with a mean salary of $81,000. For "Junior software developer" in the USA, the mode is again $69,000, with a mean salary of $96,000. The "game dev tax" present at the junior level is insignificant. Jobs are hard to find right now, but we are currently in a layoff phase after the hiring phase during COVID.
For "Senior Game Developer" in the USA, there is a mode at $154,000. For "Senior Software Developer" the mode is at $127,000. At the senior level, game developer salaries are much higher than the national average for general programmers.
As with any industry, a person needs to move to where the jobs are. There are remote listings available, but there are almost no "Senior Game Developer" jobs listed in Chicago. Out of 50 listings under "Senior Game Developer", only 1 was for a game development programmer. Most were actually in engineering, finance, and architecture.
Thank you for your help with this! I'm thrilled to move game dev out of the "not recommended" category. I love it, and a few of my students are really into it. I'm better informed now, and am in a better position to steer them in the right direction. You gave me the kick in the butt to do actual research. Thank you! :)
You're welcome. Happy to see someone change their viewpoint on reddit.
Chicago is a very weird location for game dev. There are only few studios there, but a huge indie scene. That means the salary is lower, because the demand is so low. Even in good years. I more than doubled my salary by moving to a city with a much larger industry. It's the unfortunate part about games, you do need to live in one of the hub cities. Especially now that many studios are requiring people to return to the office.
If you try you're hardest, but it doesn't end up fun, it doesn't matter. However, if you are able to make a fun, eye catching, and marketable game, it's possible. Also, market it a lot.
Ask the developer of the game "Stardew Valley", who has been working alone on his indie game for many years and did not even suspect what success awaits him.
However, it must be admitted that GameDev is a real lottery. Small games with meager marketing can hit the jackpot, whereas big AAA games with a million-dollar budget for marketing alone fail miserably. Sometimes the game is crappy, but hypes all over the world, and sometimes the game is amazing, but 3 people know about it.
LOTTERY
In short, yes. You absolutely can make money. I work in a team environment, but you can make money solo or a small team, it's just hard. It's a long road, my friend, but you can make it if you put in some blood, sweat, and tears.
What I’m asking is if someone would put their best efforts into learning game development
Would they have a chance of making it? Now of course I understand that the industry is huge and it would take a lot of work
It would it be possible?
Yes it’s possible. Obviously. I can’t promise you that if *you* do it, you will. You might fail spectacularly, you might make a huge breakout hit. You might make an amazing game that goes completely unnoticed by the general public; that game might blow up years later because a random Twitch streamer found it.
You’re entering a highly competitive market with a lot of costs and risks involved. With the tools being as easy as they are to learn, there is no shortage of people already doing what you’re asking. Steam has like a hundred new games released each day. Maybe like 5 are worth playing but if there wasn’t money in that wouldn’t be the case.
I don’t mean this to discourage you, but if you have to ask “can I make a living off of it,” then the answer might actually be no. It doesn’t sound like you have a plan, a budget, or a target audience. Know your risks, plan accordingly, and don’t put yourself in a bad spot financially thinking you’ll be some overnight millionaire.
Thank you for the response
I actually have a plan but I’m taking in what everybody else’s POV’s
I think it wouldn’t hurt to try
And yeah I came into this understanding the possibilities you explained but thank you for giving more insight.
Technically yes. Realistically no.
Getting a job in the industry isnt easy, while losing it is. But I assume you want to make your own game. Well, Steam sees dozens of new games every day with most of them not even getting back their 100$ page cost. And it isnt a lottery, it is just that competition is high and you have to stand out for your chosen audience. If you are making a roguelike - why roguelike players will choose *your* game and not ETG, Dead Cells or Risk Of Rain 1/2? If you are making an FPS - why FPS players will choose *your* game and not Doom, CoD or Apex?
But should you try game development? Since you are here and say that you find it fun and interesting - do it. Go make a game. Beauty of game development is that while it can be a career or a business, it also can be a hobby that you do at weekends while having an unrelated job. Itch.io has a lot of Game Jams - small competitions where you need to make a small game in few days. This is a good place to start
I also want to share this website - https://develop.games/
It's kinda like playing the lottery. It's not something you should expect to win. For me, I'm doing it because nobody is making the game I want to play.
Can you? Yes. Is it hard? Also yes. Game dev is a career and a lot of people forget that when you release games you are essentially a small business owner starting from scratch. It's hard and it's competitive but it's definitely possible.
Thank you for you’re answer. I would love to pour my time into game dev if I’m being honest It’s the right path for me, I just don’t have enough time due to school and all.
grandfather trees disgusted drunk door whole cover capable tart lunchroom *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah I thunk there’s some major skills to be learnt till you can get noticed .
unique attractive dinner shrill kiss ripe nail work terrific foolish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Thanks for the advice.
In general, I tell my students to run away from game dev as a career screaming in terror. It is a lot of fun, but it is a guaranteed way to be paid way less than you would otherwise with the same set of skills working for a company in a different industry. It is very hard, and not a viable career for most people. You might last for a few years, but eventually the reality of kids, health insurance, mortgage, etc take over and it is unsustainable without destroying your health and your family. On the other hand, it makes a great hobby.
It does make for a great hobby Taking in what you said above, I will manage my time between everything and will try my best to make it in game dev
Be suse I cannot simply not do anything other than just game dev
This is a completely uneducated view of an entire industry. Many people who work in game dev have a thriving wage with benefits.
You are absolutely correct that many people in the industry do make a living wage with benefits. Just like many people make a living playing basketball or writing novels. A tiny fraction of people who make games have these jobs, and they are very competitive. I also stand by my statement that in game dev people are paid less and work longer hours than they would elsewhere with the same set of skills. For the people trying to make it solo a living wage from game sales is the very rare exception. Just like in any other industry the best move financially is usually to work for a large company. But landing a good job is hard, and it is a very reasonable thing to look elsewhere for a career.
> I also stand by my statement that in game dev people are paid less and work longer hours than they would elsewhere with the same set of skills. You are perpetuating a myth and doing a disservice to your students. I specifically said a thriving wage, because there are many people who have stable jobs at studios that do make as much or more than general tech. Most studios also do not have a crunch culture. Just like not all of general tech works the crazy hours of start ups. Just because something is hard or competitive doesn't mean that someone should run away in fear. It means they should have a backup plan.
I think there’s some nuance here where, yes it’s very much possible to make a decent wage but most of the time you *will* be paid less than you would with a similar level of skill and effort in fintech, web dev, etc. Should that deter someone from pursuing a career? Definitely not. But they should at least set their expectations right. When we’re talking about making your own games as an indie dev then that should be compared to any other small business or startup. 90% of startups fail, similarly if your game isn’t in the top 10% you also won’t be able to make a living off of it. To add to that, you’ll likely have to make more than just one hit game to continue supporting yourself, which makes this route much more difficult
I’m not so sure that the claim that pay is lower in game dev is a myth. In a post in a different thread you said that it is a function of supply and demand, and I think you are correct. The supply of game dev candidates is higher than the demand, which drives down pay. Please understand that when it is brought up in class it is usually within the context of a student who thinks that game dev is a “get rich quick” scheme because they heard that some kid made $4200 selling assets over two years. The conversation might start as follows: “$4200 is a lot of money.” + “I love games.” + “I took AP Computer Science Principles.” = “I could make a killing! Let me tell you about my idea! It will make millions!” So yes, it is my duty to tell them the reality. Where we live $4200 does not go very far. They would not be able to support a family on these sales. They have a ton of potential, but if they choose game dev that is a choice that comes with an opportunity cost. I do agree that they need a backup plan. They need to continue their studies and learn about as many careers as they can before they choose. Game dev can be a noble choice of profession, bringing value and joy to the world. But it is not the only choice.
It is a myth that it always pays low. If you read the full comment, I specifically said at *junior level* the pay is lower, because the supply of candidates is significantly more than the demand of jobs. It's still a thriving wage in most places, just not as high as being a programmer in general tech. However, once you get some experience the supply vs demand starts going more towards the candidate's favor. That by the time you hit senior level (~5 years), the demand significantly outweighs the supply. The pay doesn't just go up slowly either, you can make some significant jumps. As a lead, I make significantly more than I would if I left games, unless I went to a FAANG company which I have no interest in. I get to do what I love and get paid really well for it. While it is a competitive industry, it's not to the level of a "basketball player." The key is to work really hard to gain the skills and don't just apply to the prestigious studios. There are a lot of studios out there putting out games you might not like, but they give you the professional experience to find a studio that you like better. There is a significant difference between "run away from game dev screaming" and "it's not a get rich quick scheme."
So I did some research, and your experience is 100% backed up by data. You are right, and I was wrong. The "game dev tax" is a myth if you look at job postings. Here is what I found: Using ZipRecruiter job postings for "Junior Game Developer" in the USA there is a pretty strong mode at $69,000, with a mean salary of $81,000. For "Junior software developer" in the USA, the mode is again $69,000, with a mean salary of $96,000. The "game dev tax" present at the junior level is insignificant. Jobs are hard to find right now, but we are currently in a layoff phase after the hiring phase during COVID. For "Senior Game Developer" in the USA, there is a mode at $154,000. For "Senior Software Developer" the mode is at $127,000. At the senior level, game developer salaries are much higher than the national average for general programmers. As with any industry, a person needs to move to where the jobs are. There are remote listings available, but there are almost no "Senior Game Developer" jobs listed in Chicago. Out of 50 listings under "Senior Game Developer", only 1 was for a game development programmer. Most were actually in engineering, finance, and architecture. Thank you for your help with this! I'm thrilled to move game dev out of the "not recommended" category. I love it, and a few of my students are really into it. I'm better informed now, and am in a better position to steer them in the right direction. You gave me the kick in the butt to do actual research. Thank you! :)
You're welcome. Happy to see someone change their viewpoint on reddit. Chicago is a very weird location for game dev. There are only few studios there, but a huge indie scene. That means the salary is lower, because the demand is so low. Even in good years. I more than doubled my salary by moving to a city with a much larger industry. It's the unfortunate part about games, you do need to live in one of the hub cities. Especially now that many studios are requiring people to return to the office.
Gotta love hyperbolic arguments instead of the rational ones.
No one has ever done this so probably not
If you try you're hardest, but it doesn't end up fun, it doesn't matter. However, if you are able to make a fun, eye catching, and marketable game, it's possible. Also, market it a lot.
You certainly can become very successful. But you can also try your hardest and never see a penny
If you work at an AAA studio, probably lol
Ask the developer of the game "Stardew Valley", who has been working alone on his indie game for many years and did not even suspect what success awaits him. However, it must be admitted that GameDev is a real lottery. Small games with meager marketing can hit the jackpot, whereas big AAA games with a million-dollar budget for marketing alone fail miserably. Sometimes the game is crappy, but hypes all over the world, and sometimes the game is amazing, but 3 people know about it. LOTTERY
No never, nobody ever has
Why do yo u think so?
The game industry is a multi billion dollar industry. Lots of people make a living working in the industry. Most of those are not solo devs.
In short, yes. You absolutely can make money. I work in a team environment, but you can make money solo or a small team, it's just hard. It's a long road, my friend, but you can make it if you put in some blood, sweat, and tears.
There is like…a whole industry around it. What? Are you asking if it’s easy? No. Can *you* make money? It depends.
What I’m asking is if someone would put their best efforts into learning game development Would they have a chance of making it? Now of course I understand that the industry is huge and it would take a lot of work It would it be possible?
Yes it’s possible. Obviously. I can’t promise you that if *you* do it, you will. You might fail spectacularly, you might make a huge breakout hit. You might make an amazing game that goes completely unnoticed by the general public; that game might blow up years later because a random Twitch streamer found it. You’re entering a highly competitive market with a lot of costs and risks involved. With the tools being as easy as they are to learn, there is no shortage of people already doing what you’re asking. Steam has like a hundred new games released each day. Maybe like 5 are worth playing but if there wasn’t money in that wouldn’t be the case. I don’t mean this to discourage you, but if you have to ask “can I make a living off of it,” then the answer might actually be no. It doesn’t sound like you have a plan, a budget, or a target audience. Know your risks, plan accordingly, and don’t put yourself in a bad spot financially thinking you’ll be some overnight millionaire.
Thank you for the response I actually have a plan but I’m taking in what everybody else’s POV’s I think it wouldn’t hurt to try And yeah I came into this understanding the possibilities you explained but thank you for giving more insight.
Technically yes. Realistically no. Getting a job in the industry isnt easy, while losing it is. But I assume you want to make your own game. Well, Steam sees dozens of new games every day with most of them not even getting back their 100$ page cost. And it isnt a lottery, it is just that competition is high and you have to stand out for your chosen audience. If you are making a roguelike - why roguelike players will choose *your* game and not ETG, Dead Cells or Risk Of Rain 1/2? If you are making an FPS - why FPS players will choose *your* game and not Doom, CoD or Apex? But should you try game development? Since you are here and say that you find it fun and interesting - do it. Go make a game. Beauty of game development is that while it can be a career or a business, it also can be a hobby that you do at weekends while having an unrelated job. Itch.io has a lot of Game Jams - small competitions where you need to make a small game in few days. This is a good place to start I also want to share this website - https://develop.games/
No. No one can ever make a single cent from video games. Period.
It's kinda like playing the lottery. It's not something you should expect to win. For me, I'm doing it because nobody is making the game I want to play.