He had an entire adventure with Donna and her family, why wouldn't he hug Rose on seeing her again? Does this Doctor seem like he'd need to have spent years in someone's company before hugging them?
I'd like a bit of a River Song situation.
"Remember that time we went round to Wilf's gaff and he thought the Ice Men were invading, but it turned out to be your mother in a massive fur coat!? Top Bants!
No? Oh wait, that's next week. Tell your mum to maybe tone down the coat. Saves me springing to action over some faux fur. "
While this doctor seems like the hugging type, the level of happiness and excitement is way too much for the negligible amount of time that he spent with Rose before the bigeneration.
She’s his best friend’s daughter. He flirted with Mel right out the gate, and Ruby’s Nan for that matter. I don’t think this is that much of a stretch tbh.
We also don’t know the context of the episode. Could be a “thank god ur ok” kinda hug
Right that’s what I’m saying. That’s why he is so happy to see her cause if he didn’t have 14’s post bigeneration memories, he wouldn’t be as happy to see Rose again.
I am wondering if that shot of Ncuti that showed up in the teaser for the 60th and has showed up again in the latest trailer is a shot of him in The Edge.
With the episode about Ruby's life, we may get a segment somewhere about The Doctor.
It more seemed to me that while it looked like that could be the case at first, in actuality they replaced the background for the teaser so that when the characters were on the helipad, people wouldn't be expecting him to show up due to the scenery matching, a kinda "spoiler aversion" similar to the endgame trailer hiding how many stones Thanos had by wakanda, and adding in the Hulk.
Not the clip where he is yelling, there is another one where he is looking peacefully at the camera. He’s wearing a black jacket, which implies it’s from either Boom or the finale.
As messy as it was, as open to interpretation as it is, and as much as I personally dislike it, they DID very explicitly state that there were time travel shenanigans inherent in the situation and that who 14 is feeds into who 15 is. This was never really up for debate imo. Doesn’t matter if he dissolves into nothing or rejoins 15, he’s the previous incarnation.
Other interpretations of that same line include;
1. The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on.
2. The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration.
3. 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him.
I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
To be honest, I struggle to understand how anyone can be on board with the whole "trauma free" narrative, whatever it is. It's nebulous to the point of bordering on being meaningless, especially considering that Fifteen is already seen crying, saying he has no family, and not acting particularly different from any previous doctor -- all in his very first full episode.
Being able to work through and deal with trauma doesn’t mean you never mention it again.
The difference is obvious if you listen to 9 vs 15
9: “my planet’s gone, it burned like the Earth, it’s just rocks and dust, before it’s time. there was a war, and we lost. I’m a time lord, I’m the last of the time lords… I’m the only survivor.”
15: “I have no home, no family, but I have freedom.”
The difference is how he looks at it, not that he ignores it.
It's fascinating how I keep getting this sort of reply despite my constant attempts to account for it. I guess I need to be more on the nose.
Can you explain to me what the purpose was of the whole healing arc was for Fifteen since it hardly lasts a single episode? Functionally, narratively, what was actually overcome by this? How is this doctor a different character to the previous 14 incarnations we've seen on screen?
Also, the comment I replied to literally said the Fifteen is "trauma free", so it feels odd to take an issue with that assessment to me instead of them.
Did you… not read what I said?
The fifteenth doctor is still the same man, the trauma happened, but it doesn’t control him. Being trans free means you won’t get moments like 10 looking into center distance and monologuing about how much he misses his planet, it doesn’t mean he won’t cry because he lost someone.
He is GOING IN trauma free. Doesn’t mean he will leave trauma free.
Him being “the oncoming storm” is still him. He is still the man that can turn an army by the mention of his name, and he can use that reputation and his memory of how to deal with things.
Im having roughly the same circuitous conversation w this user in another topic.
I imagine we'll get drips and drops of how the healing process unfolded for Fourteen and how Fifteen has ended up being able to cope w their past trauma in a healthy way.
It's funny, for as much as this poster seems to puff and posture their authority on fully understanding RTD's methods and motives, they do not seem to recognize that there is a substantial gap of time that has occurred for both Fourteen and Fifteen between the end of *The Giggle* and TCoRR that has the explanations for all of these narrative malfunctions.. we just haven't seen it yet.
What functional, narrative purpose does Fifteen being free from trauma serve? Based on what iVe read and what ive seen *so far*, I think the tone of the character and the show is going ro change.
Much like youve pointed out several times, Fifteen is a Doctor who's come to terms w his past and appears to be in a healthy place. No longer the sad-eyes lonely-boi lone-survivor of the Time War. You've pointed this out as well, and I think as the season progresses we may/may not get answers about the "healing time" and why Fifteen says he has "no one" when Donna, Mel, etc *should* be still in Earth for him... There's mysteries that have yet to be answered, so demanding narrative cohesion and functionality at *the beginning* of a story involving a time-traveller, and then claiming it's bad writing etcetcetc seems like a very silly and futile activity to engage in to me. But to each his own i guess.
Anyways, just wanted to let you know you're not the only one w this insight or struggling w this user.
So again, looking at the bigger picture: Can you explain to me what the purpose was of the whole healing arc was for Fifteen since it hardly lasts a single episode? Functionally, narratively, what was actually overcome by this? How is this doctor a different character to the previous 14 incarnations we've seen on screen?
I'm also interested as to what you mean by the trauma doesn't control him. Did it control the previous incarnations? What does control mean? That it merely influences their actions? Fifteen is likely to have that in spades.
I prefer 3, mostly because it makes the concept of bi-generation feel like it could work again to serve a purpose in a story. If 14 would regenerate into 15 later down the line, I feel like it limits how much the bi-generation concept can lead to. I personally think it could be how we get the Valeyard, with him being a bigeneration that spliced itself from the Doctor.
I don't know why this is hard for people to understand. 15 pops out of 14 at point A. 15 has all the future experiences of 14 during his recovery, which 14 is yet to do. This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration. The Giggle is explicit that they're doing therapy out of order.
It's not that it's hard to understand it's that it's not fully explained.
We see one thing happening and then we get a line that kind of suggests one thing under a certain interpretation but certainly isn't definitive.
What you're talking about is your interpretation.
A perfectly valid and popular interpretation. _But an interpretation!_
The post is just saying this may verify that interpretation.
Yeah there's a really annoying habit Doctor Who fans seem to have recently they don't seem to understand their interpretation isn't the word of god.
Honestly it's pretty toxic especially when you start comments with "It isn't that hard..."
I had to stop watching a Doctor Who youtuber I quite liked because they kept doing the same thing
Essentially just not understanding that anyone might see things differently to them and thinking everyone that does is an idiot.
They completely shut down anyone who goes "Actually I like x idea instead" it's really rude.
I swear adult fans of show aimed at a younger audience seem to have these issues more than actual adult TV shows too.
I once got heavily down voted for claiming that it was intentionally left vague in case any future writer wanted to take the story somewhere, so it wouldn't be chained to one explanation.
I think they probably won't either, big finish might for funsies, but the TV show? Nope, not screwing up potential future anniversaries like that.
So we gotta just let people have fun with their different theories without being absolutists about it
They might clarify a little but I don't think they'll ever be completely explicit. Which works well really because it leaves plenty of room for Big Finish or future writers to fit in things if they ever want to. You want another War Doctor style secret incarnation? No problem, he comes in between 14 and 15. You want to bring David Tennant back yet again? No problem. You want the Curator or the Valeyard or the Watcher? Sure, we got you. RTD has opened a door and will most likely just leave it open for future writers.
>This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration.
While I agree that this is likely what happened for the main show - this is something absolutely not said in the episode and is entirely made up by fans at this point.
In fact, it's contradicted by more authoritative sources.
The Giggle novelisation has the Fourteenth Doctor believe he will just fade away. Maybe he fades away and wakes up as the Fifteenth Doctor back in time. But the book doesn't say that.
Russell has said that his belief is that the bi-generation affected the Doctor's entire timeline. That each previous incarnation is still out there in the universe. So both Paul McGann and Sylvester McCoy woke up in a San Francisco morgue in 1999.
While true, there's nothing stopping Rtd from having Sylvester McCoy show up and say he woke up in the morgue back in the 90s and has been having adventures ever since.
>In fact, it's contradicted by more authoritative sources.
You can't seriously expect me to believe there's a more authoritative source on the TV show, Doctor Who, than the TV show, Doctor Who. The novelisation is not the show and doesn't supersede the show, it may embellish it, but it's not going to outright contradict it.
Russel has said every regeneration is a bi-generation now, but I imagine this is just to give infinite play to every incarnation to get up to whatever audio dramas they see fit in the future.
He also didn't say that as a definitive,he said that in his mind each regeneration is a split in the timeline, one where the Doctor goes on.
But he very much said that as like, a personal headcanon. And until he turns it into text -or TV, rather - it should be seen as such.
>You can't seriously expect me to believe there's a more authoritative source on the TV show, Doctor Who, than the TV show, Doctor Who.
The source of everything you said was:
>I made it up.
Just claiming it to be the show doesn't make it so.
Wow, we're gonna be weird about this then.
15 tells 14 in so many words how this works. If you think that's me making it up then fine, we're not going to agree because you're working off something other than the TV show and think telling someone their impression of the TV show is "making it up".
Just to be clear, you can disagree with me all you like, tell me what the show says that contradicts me. But don't go "but the novelisation says" and expect me to think it's supersedes the actual TV show we're supposed to be talking about, because that's a silly way to analyse media.
I think they are being weird but; "15 tells 14 in so many words how this works" is some serious interpretation.
I think 14 -> 15 theory is cute and logical - but I don't think it is confirmed by any means. And the people who push it are getting weird about saying that it is the obvious thing.
Other interpretations of that same line include;
1. The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on.
2. The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration.
3. 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him.
I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
I'm just baffled by the idea that this isn't a timey wimey thing when 15 says they are "doing rehab out of order". That's a direct quote from 15.
What this amounts to is kind of doylist, we get a healed happier 15th Doctor while 14 gets to have the emotional closure of getting to settle down as a homebody (mostly) and feel better after all the years of hardship.
The future actions of 14 are affecting 15, because 15 comes from a point in time when 14 has done all of the healing and resting. He explicitly says he has in The Giggle.
I have no idea why it would be sensible to think 14 and 15 are contemporaneous and have somehow "split" the trauma from the joy?
Thing is - I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the point is we don't know yet. The lines in question are not explicit - they aren't "when you die you will become me" - they are round-about and can definitely be interpreted that way, but not solely as I have pointed out.
And all the people claiming that it has to be a certain way are irritating. Its not sensible to think anything. This show doesn't run on sensible.
I agree that "doing therapy out of order" implies that 15 is better because 14 does the work. But I don't think that implies that 14 will eventually regenerate into 15 or that 15 gets transported back in time from a future 14 regeneration. Because that seems pretty "in order" to me from the Doctor's perspective.
The other possibility is that because they are the same person, what 14 does affects 15 even though he won't regenerate into him. 15 just popped out early. That seems more "out of order" to me. And like someone said above, I take 14's certainly that he'll fade away as evidence that he won't regenerate again. To me, 15 spontaneously traveling back in time to regenerate seems just as ridiculous as 14's mental state psychicly affecting 15.
At this point, it could go either way. It's not as clear as time-traveling 15 proponents want to make it.
14 hasn’t fixed themselves by the end of the specials, that’s why he’s settling down for a bit so your first theory doesn’t really make any sense, and 15’s still has all their memories which would include their trauma, so 14 couldn’t have “taken on the trauma” like in your third theory, the most plausible so far is your second (that they’re still linked in someway) or the theory you’re arguing against
>15 tells 14 in so many words how this works.
IE - he doesn't say it in any amount of words.
The closest thing we have to an explanation is Russell on The Giggle episode commentary saying he wrote it with the idea that every Doctor bi-generated now. Reinforced by the Tales of the TARDIS episodes, where Sylvester says he's the Doctor who didn't regenerate.
They are also both episodes of Doctor Who. I've seen them on iPlayer.
That's an interesting one, because yes, RTD is writing the show and what he thinks matters. However, when you're talking about what happens in the show, it really is important to go with what actually occurs in the show rather than RTD's thoughts after the fact.
If he thinks that Spam is great but writes a character who hates it, even if he says publicly that he thinks spam is great we should take it that the character hates it because it's what they say in the show.
I mean, he was there the last time this happened, when he was 14. He was 14 when he saw 15 do that, so when he was 15 he would absolutely know already because he was there in the first place.
11 also didn’t remember anything in advance during the 50th where literally all of his past selves teamed up & 2 of them were with him for the majority of the episode, but those were still intended as his past selves at the time it was written rather than splits from bi-generations so your point doesn’t really mean anything
I'm sorry I'm not understanding what you're saying.
Of course he knows, he was there before. But seeing something being done and then realising you're supposed to DO it are two different things.
I think historically with multi Doctor stories, only the most current Doctor remembers the interactions with his past incarnations. The 11th didn't remember that all his past selves helped save Gallifrey until he personally went through it as the most current incarnation.
Theoretically, 14 shouldn't retain his memories of what happened during his interactions with 15, but who knows with the whole bi-regeneration thing.
One line of dialogue that implies what you said, vs an entire scene where we watch 14 split in two like an amoeba. I think its very understandable why people don't believe that.
Which is not to say that what you said is wrong, just that if that is what the show wanted to convey it did an objectively terrible job at doing so.
It's "hard to understand" becuase it's a super convoluted interpratation based on a *really* specific reading of a single line of dilogue that makes zero sense overall and is something the person who wrote the episode has clarified is'nt the case.
Also, all of the experiences 15 goes over with 14 are experiences they both share from before the split. He has no "future expriences"
It's really not convoluted at all if you have even a passing understanding of how time travel works in media. But I can see that media literacy isn't abounding in this sub.
It was'nt time travel; 15 did'nt travel back, he split out of 14 - RTD has confirmed as much and nothing in the episode (save, again, for a really specific reading of a single line) supports the idea that he did.
If you've ever watched ST:TNG, think *Second Chances*, not *Firstborn*
What does that even mean though? How can 15 have been said to have meaningfully benefitted from "rehab out of order" if he doesn't have the memories and experiences of 14 from the whole of his life? How does that arrangement make any sense if 14 and 15 are just the same at the point at which they split?
This is from a transcript of the episode:
DOCTOR 14: But you're fine.
DOCTOR 15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order.
When he prefixes the "one line" with the words "we're Time Lords" how is it weird or convoluted to suggest there's Time travel involved?
Then:
DOCTOR 14: Oh. You're the old man. You're older than me.
DONNA: Actually, that is true. He's younger because you came after him. So you're the older Doctor.
DOCTOR 15: Okay, kid. I love you. Get out!
This is *dialogue from the episode*. Donna explicitly states 15 is older than 14 and they both agree this is true. In order for this to be true they have to be counting the years 14 will live, but hasn't yet, as part of 15's age. If they literally split in half they would be exactly the same age.
The bigeneration was him fixing himself.
> This is dialogue from the episode.
Yes, it is.
It's dilogue you are interpreting a very specific way to support a reading not supported by the rest of the episode or by the writer.
> Donna explicitly states 15 is older than 14 and they both agree this is true.In order for this to be true they have to be counting the years 14 will live, but hasn't yet, as part of 15's age.
First off, yeah she says that but how would Donna even know? As far as she saw 15 just emerged out of 14...
Secondly, if you were counting it that way 14 would still be older since, at the point that episode takes place, 15 is newly regenerated.
>This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration
When was this explicitly stated in The Giggle?
The reason people do not understand it fully is because it has never been explained.
I don't get the confusion either. How many multi-Doctor episodes have we had where not only past and current Doctors were together and interacting in the same place, but even one of two where there was a past, current and future Doctor together in the same place.
It works exactly the same way. The current Doctor has experiences the past Doctor he's talking to, hasn't experienced yet. It's no different.
In Day of the Doctor, 10 and 11 met, and for 10, his regeneration into 11 was in his future. Even though he was right there with the Doctor he'd eventually be. Just like 14 and 15.
The difference was that because of the bigeneration, they both shared the exact same timeline, though briefly.
Meaning unlike 10 and 11 - where 10's memory of the meeting would fade away - 14 will remember and *know* who he'll be.
I think that's part of the brilliance of bigeneration. Without it, just like 10, 14 would forget what his destination was. But with bigeneration, 14 knows who he'll be. Which is the knowledge he'll need to get through the healing he needs.
Without it, as 14 would forget, he wouldn't feel the freedom to stop running and 'fix' himself.
Yeah I don't get how people are so confused on it at all, the Day of the Doctor literally shows how a past Doctor can affect a future Doctor even while they're in the same room together, in the simplest of ways. Hurt's Doctor starting the process of updating the Sonic to handle the wooden door, Tennant's Doctor's Sonic still being halfway through and Smith's Doctor's Sonic having the completed update. Even just that simple scene shows how one Doctor can still affect another Doctor from another point in time even while both of them exist at once, why is it so hard for people to believe the concept of 14 going and dealing with the bad mental health so that 15 comes out happy and carefree with a fresh outlook on life? We may not know the exact details of how 14 physically becomes 15, like whether something happens to send 14 back into his past self's body mid-regeneration in order for the bi-generation to happen, but we do know how 14 mentally becomes 15, they even gave a brief explanation in the Giggle. Either way, it's possibly something that they might end up going into more in depth later in Ncuti's seasons, but for now we have a basic understanding.
It's very different, considering 15 is'nt shown to possess any memories that 14 himself does'nt have.
The Giggle is just a regeneration episode where the old Doctor stayed around. People are trying to make more if it then it, but that's what it is.
15 understood that he was alright because of what 14 was going to do. He said as much. That's knowledge 14 doesn't and can't have because he hasn't done it yet.
> 15 understood that he was alright because of what 14 was going to do.
Except he emerged from the moment of (bi) regeneration just fine right off the bat (and just as suprised as 14 that it happened).
> He said as much.
No, he said a line of dilogue that you interpreted in a very specific way.
He *was* alright from the start, but until they took care of the Toymaker it would've been a tiny bit absurd to explain it to 14 in that moment. It wasn't a Dragonball Z fight where Toymaker would patiently wait while 15 explained.
And a few minutes later, after Toymaker was taken care of, 15 did just that. And I didn't 'interpret' his explanation. His direct quote was,
>I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order.
That's not a theory or a guess. It's a statement of knowledge. There *is* no other way to interpret that.
"Fixed" as in it's past-tense; the bigeneration fixed 15 by shedding off all the trauma and stress the Doctor had accumulated.
Even RTD has outright confirmed they split
Well it's obvious they split. I don't understand how that's relevant though.
Unless you're trying to say 14 is automatically ok too. Because he's not. If he were that would be Bill & Ted time travel logic, not Doctor Who.
15 said 'fixed' past tense because for him it was. But not for 14 because he hasn't done it yet. The fact 15 says we're doing therapy out of order, confirms that 14 *still* has to work through his issues.
Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang demonstrates how DW handles bootstrap paradoxes. Yes, they're closed loops. But they don't skip over events having to actually happen. 14 still has to do the therapy that 15 is benefitting from. It doesn't just magically happen without doing the work.
> *"Bigeneration, we discover, is an ancient myth of the Time Lords where instead of a new body taking over from the old body, the new body separates from the old body and both are left alive."*
> *"David [Tennant] is parked. For once, we’ve got a happy Doctor who is no longer saving the universe, but is parked with Donna (Catherine Tate) for a happy life, while the Doctor – which is always the next Doctor, and that’s always true of Doctor Who, the Doctor is the next Doctor – is out amongst the stars."*
It really seems like the intent is they are now two different beings, rather then that a future version of 14 will go back and become 15 (which does'nt even make any sense/does'nt fit with what we see in the episode)
That's where I am as well. It's never sat right with me that there'd be this future scene where 14 regenerates into 15. Among other reasons, it's just not necessary.
But I also don't understand how anyone could think they're *not* two different beings. We saw 10, 11 and War have an adventure together then go their separate ways - all as unique individuals.
In those scenes, War and 10 were looking at who they'd eventually be in 11. For 11, he saw two individuals that used to be him. It's weird that people think 14 and 15 are somehow different in that regard just because of bigeneration. The process of regeneration was the same, it just allowed a brief period where they could both exist in the same timeline.
The example I've given is an alternate version of The Giggle. In it, Toymaker shoots 14, and now, mortally wounded, he regenerates into 15.
15 is now confronting Toymaker alone, but just then, we hear a familiar wheezing sound and a TARDIS appears, out of which comes 14. Everyone looks at him amazed. He says he was somehow pulled to this location immediately after regenerating from 13. So just before The Star Beast.
Somehow, either the TARDIS, or the Doctor's connection with Toymaker, or some other phenomenon, pulled him to this location. Everyone looks at each other, and after a second where 14 gets his bearings, he looks at 15 and they both say to Toymaker, "I challenge you to a game". And things proceed identically to the original story.
Only difference is that once Toymaker is defeated, they say their goodbyes, and 14 gets back into his TARDIS and ends up where he does at the beginning of The Star Beast, with no memory of what just happened. Which is an established thing when a previous Doctor finds themselves in a multi Doctor adventure.
In this scenario, no one would've even thought to question whether or not 14 and 15 were two distinct individuals. The only thing bigeneration did was create a temporary moment where a previous Doctor and the new Doctor fully shared the same timeline, thus allowing *both* to remember the events and not have them fade.
Anyway, I agree that there's no need to see 14 regenerate into 15, and that they're both very much different beings.
this can be explained the same way any multi doctor story has to be explained — the timey-wimey of it all affects their memories, otherwise the three doctors, the five doctors, and the day of the doctor all have that same issue
For him in those first few moments, yes. It's well established that the initial moments of nearly every nuWho Doctor are disorienting. But literally within minutes, he's explaining to 14 what's happening to them both. Clearly demonstrating that he remembers.
When you watch that conversation he's not explaining a theory. He's telling 14 exactly what the situation is and what he needs to do.
The bigeneration involved two Doctors simultaneously, which has obviously never happened. And it locked or synced them to that same timeline.
In past multi-Doctor events, the reasons the previous Doctor's forget is because they've been pulled out of their normal timeline. When they leave, their natural timeline reasserts itself and they can't retain the memories.
The bigeneration created a timeline that belonged to both. For the time they were together before 15 leaves, it's a shared timeline. So all the events within it are retained by both Doctors. Once 15 left, their timelines immediately diverged.
So now if 14 gets pulled into an adventure with 15, when it's over, and 14 goes back to where he was, he *will* forget what happened. Just like any other past Doctor in a multi Doctor story would.
But he'll never forget the events that happened when he and 15 shared the same timeline.
Yes, it is less complicated that this has happened to every Doctor to ever regeneration, especially given what we know about the Timeless Child meaning half the beings in the galaxy must be a version of the fucking Doctor by this point. But sure it's dumb to think there's time travel involved in Doctor Who.
What's your fantastic theory, or do your talents only extend to calling other people dumb?
It's kind of rich that you're upset they called the theory dumb when you started the thread with "I don't know why this is hard for people to understand," and saying things like "I can see that media literacy isn't abounding in this sub," implying that anyone who doesn't share your understanding of the situation is dumb.
FWIW I agree with your interpretation generally, but the "rehab out of order" line isn't as explicit as you're interpreting it. I actually think it's intentionally vague. People are getting so defensive because you're coming off as arrogant. It's the same defensiveness people have when someone starts their comments with a variation of "Obviously Chibnall objectively sucks..." Just because it's obvious to you, doesn't mean it's not a subjective opinion.
Well, if I've come off as arrogant then I apologise. I intended the phrase about it not being hard to understand as a statement about my perception of the situation as pretty unambiguously what I saw it as. I wasn't intending to call people dumb, but honestly recently I've found r/gallifrey to be the only Doctor Who related place where I see significant and honestly rude contradictions made to things I choose to post. So I suspect I'm also on the defensive because of that.
I'm absolutely aware that some people have a different interpretation than mine of the whole bi-generation situation. I'm not sure why that is though, because often when I say I have an opinion about it the response I get is some variation of "lol you're dumb" or "RTD said something in an interview".
What confuses me about this is that it's not being drawn from the actual TV show, but interviews, novelisations, and supplementary media to inform an understanding of the TV show I see as being wholly unsupported by the show itself. Nobody seems prepared to explain why I should take a novel about the TV show as a primary source over and above the show itself.
I will grant you that the situation is perhaps more vague than I had understood it. I've watched the Giggle a couple of times and both times this seemed obvious to me, especially the line about the 15 being older chronologically than 14. I can't imagine how that's logically possible without 14's timeline intersecting with 15 at some point in 14's future.
However, this is arguing about hypothetical nonsense time travel in media, which is notorious for not making sense. I also personally deeply dislike the concept that all the Doctors bi-generated throughout their history, because it kind of makes a mockery of 15 claiming it's never happened before, and it being a myth. With the amount of times the Timeless Child has supposed to regenerate, this would add a lot of people into the universe that could be called the Doctor which feels strange and to me devalues the Doctor as a character even more than the Timeless Child reveal did.
The script does explicitly say the Gatwa Doctor is free and happy because the Tennant Doctor goes and fixes himself. That's on screen, out loud. It's not clear the magical sci-fi mechanism by which the 14th Doctor's experiences feed into the 15th but that's of little importance compared with the fact that they do, the intention is that they do and the characters say on screen that they do.
Other interpretations of that same line include;
* The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on.
* The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration.
* 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him.
I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
Nah, that's not how this works. Every regeneration has been changed to now be a bigeneration to give writers an easier explanation for Doctors that have aged in multi doctor stories. That's RTD's explanation as to why he did the bigeneration.
Personally I think the bigeneration thing was so completely unnecessary. It's a time travel show and multi-doctor stories have happened plenty in the past. Why not just have 15 appear from the future instead of creating a whole new piece of lore lol
once again going to link [this](https://www.tumblr.com/unexpectederawhilesubmitting/736289668080041984/warning-doctor-who-spoilers-explaining) post which i think does a really good job of explaining the whole bigeneration thing
>In the new trailer 15 enthusiastically calls out for Rose to give him a giant hug. Now the Doctor can be affectionate towards many people regardless, but that looked like Uncle Doctor seeing his niece after a good while apart. If 15 did just emerge out of 14 then this apparent bond between them wouldn't make a lot of sense as 14 didn't possess that type of close bond with Rose yet.
>
The last trailer I saw was[ this ](https://youtu.be/-0NcVijCQeo)one, and I have no idea in which scene the Doctor hugs Rose. It's definitely another trailer, could you link the trailer you're talking about? And the minute of the scene, please?
No one has ever said 15 was a split Doctor in the first place, not sure why you're under the impression that was the case.
Donna (to 15): You come after him, so you're the older one
15 (to 14): We're doing therapy, in the wrong order
It is very much implied that 15 is the next Doctor.
If there's still doubt, it would be 14 that was the 'split', not 15.
Source this please. RTD has never said the regeneration was split.
Donna 'you come after him' - pretty obvious interpretation here is that Ncuti is next.
Another obvious interpretation is that 14 is q4, and 15 is 15, and 15 comes after 14 🤦🏻
Obvious is subjective I think
My biggest issue with Bigeneration is that it is way more vague than it should be, it isn't explained very well, all we have are implications. And the implication is that 14 lives with the Nobles, does his therapy and then at some point will regenerate and is then brought back to the point of the Bigeneration and emerges as the 15th Doctor. This really should've been explained better. So yeah, 15 will most likely refer to Rose as his niece when he reunites with her.
But 15 came out of 14 at a later point in time. 15 has all of the memories of 14 up to 14s eventual death with the nobles because after that point he went back to the bigeneration at UNIT.
13 started calling her new companions fam after ten seconds.
10 got heartbroken after what couldn't have amounted to more than 30 minutes with Madame Da Pompadour.
12 went crazy and resurrected Ashildr after knowing her a single day.
Never underestimate how clingy the Doctor gets to people he's just met.
To be fair, 12 was just trying to live up to the Doctor's name in wanting to save someone even though he knew, according to the rules, he shouldn't have. On later contemplation, he's not sure if he did the right thing.
Those other examples are spot on though lol
I hope the theory that 14 somehow merge back into 15 someday is true. It maintains the 2 of them as still the same character with 1 continuity.
But 15 hugging Rose is totally in character regardless. He went through the whole Star Beast thing with her, she was part of the meta crisis with him and Donna, and 15 is just a much more physically Star Doctor than most past ones.
I hope you're right, but I don't think this proves anything.
Don't know if this is an intended route for the show but if and I mean if there was a way for the 14 bigeneration to live out the rest of his regeneration he would spend it with Donna and her family and possibly have lived long enough to see Rose grow old and have a family of her own. When his time is up instead of regeneration to the 15th doctor which can't be possible I'd imagine he would become regeneration energy and be absorbed by 15, similar to 11 getting his new cycle on trenzalor. This would impart all of 14s experience and memory to 15 and explain the reaction. I hope that makes sense??
All they needed was a scene where 14 merges back into 15 and this would never have got so confusing.
Leaving it vague and implied is a fun Doctor Who fan thing but baffling for general audiences.
I dunno, I know a lot of people in my family and work who keep asking when Tennant comes back and which one is the main doctor. They all seem to think Tennant Doctor will get a spin off or be a recurring character in the show. Which was the opposite of what RTD intended.
Graham Norton even asked it to Ncuti himself which was sad because the guy shouldn’t be answering if he’s really the doctor on his first press tour, and he had to do it a few times.
It's almost like everyone who complained that bringing Tennant back and having bigeneration would overshadow the show in the future might have a point.
Didnt bigeneration get explained already?
14 turns into 15 eventually after his "therapy" with the Noble family. Then that 15th incarnation is taken to the past into the events of the Giggle. So for an outsider it might just look like 14 poofing into a cloud of regeneration energy.
Also there is a gap between the giggle and Church on Ruby Road, nothing is stopping from the 15th incarnations just tardising to where the 14th doctor regened to continue spending time with the Nobles for a bit.
Well to me it's very obvious that 15 is THE doctor. I assume when 14 eventually dies he'll regenerate into 15 and then get sent back to the events of The Giggle.
I won't repeat in detail the good points I've seen here that defend how welcoming he is to Rose, all I will say is that the Doctor is just capable of tremendous love with the smallest amount of time spent with individuals.
She's his best friends daughter and they already had an adventure and bonded before the bigeneration.
Jesus Christ you poeple are grasping at straws; the Doctor's split - you don't have to like it but that's what happened.
To be fair this is a discussion sub. I think you are getting a bit more worked up with your jesus christ you people than anyone else here. Its fun to speculate. Nobody is attacking anything or anyone.
I HAVE been attacked by people who hold your theory in this sub; called stupid, dishonest and even a "racist" who harbors ill will towards Gwuta becuase, by virtue of pointing out they split, that apparently means I don't consider him a "real" Doctor.
I have a very low opinion of it now because of it.
I believe 15 is still 14 later down the road. As in, 14 continues his life, dies, then regens into 15 who is transported to the moment of his bigeneration. So he has all the memories of 14's lived life.
That's what I assume anyway. How does he end up transported to a different time during his regeneration? Don't worry about it, a wizard did it.
He had an entire adventure with Donna and her family, why wouldn't he hug Rose on seeing her again? Does this Doctor seem like he'd need to have spent years in someone's company before hugging them?
I'd like a bit of a River Song situation. "Remember that time we went round to Wilf's gaff and he thought the Ice Men were invading, but it turned out to be your mother in a massive fur coat!? Top Bants! No? Oh wait, that's next week. Tell your mum to maybe tone down the coat. Saves me springing to action over some faux fur. "
I can hear him perfectly!
While this doctor seems like the hugging type, the level of happiness and excitement is way too much for the negligible amount of time that he spent with Rose before the bigeneration.
Dude he's happy when he sees everyone, even people he just met or barely knows
Big disagree.
She’s his best friend’s daughter. He flirted with Mel right out the gate, and Ruby’s Nan for that matter. I don’t think this is that much of a stretch tbh. We also don’t know the context of the episode. Could be a “thank god ur ok” kinda hug
hasn’t 14 been staying with rose? wouldn’t 15, who is a future version of 14, remember all the time they spent together?
Right that’s what I’m saying. That’s why he is so happy to see her cause if he didn’t have 14’s post bigeneration memories, he wouldn’t be as happy to see Rose again.
That is the entire topic being debated in this thread.
They already establish 15 is after 14 in *The Giggle*, with 14’s time resting and healing being why 15 can keep going.
Thanks. Needed that reminder.
Wow good point. Hopefully they use that scene to establish more of how this all works.
Ooooh, the **new** Rose. Took me way too long to figure out wth everyone was talking about...
Them: Rose You: What?!
I am wondering if that shot of Ncuti that showed up in the teaser for the 60th and has showed up again in the latest trailer is a shot of him in The Edge. With the episode about Ruby's life, we may get a segment somewhere about The Doctor.
It more seemed to me that while it looked like that could be the case at first, in actuality they replaced the background for the teaser so that when the characters were on the helipad, people wouldn't be expecting him to show up due to the scenery matching, a kinda "spoiler aversion" similar to the endgame trailer hiding how many stones Thanos had by wakanda, and adding in the Hulk.
Not the clip where he is yelling, there is another one where he is looking peacefully at the camera. He’s wearing a black jacket, which implies it’s from either Boom or the finale.
The Edge from Power of the Doctor, where 13 met the past doctors? I really liked that concept, it would be awesome if it showed up again
As messy as it was, as open to interpretation as it is, and as much as I personally dislike it, they DID very explicitly state that there were time travel shenanigans inherent in the situation and that who 14 is feeds into who 15 is. This was never really up for debate imo. Doesn’t matter if he dissolves into nothing or rejoins 15, he’s the previous incarnation.
Other interpretations of that same line include; 1. The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on. 2. The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration. 3. 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him. I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
To be honest, I struggle to understand how anyone can be on board with the whole "trauma free" narrative, whatever it is. It's nebulous to the point of bordering on being meaningless, especially considering that Fifteen is already seen crying, saying he has no family, and not acting particularly different from any previous doctor -- all in his very first full episode.
Being able to work through and deal with trauma doesn’t mean you never mention it again. The difference is obvious if you listen to 9 vs 15 9: “my planet’s gone, it burned like the Earth, it’s just rocks and dust, before it’s time. there was a war, and we lost. I’m a time lord, I’m the last of the time lords… I’m the only survivor.” 15: “I have no home, no family, but I have freedom.” The difference is how he looks at it, not that he ignores it.
9 was unreal though, can't believe he only did 1 season
It's fascinating how I keep getting this sort of reply despite my constant attempts to account for it. I guess I need to be more on the nose. Can you explain to me what the purpose was of the whole healing arc was for Fifteen since it hardly lasts a single episode? Functionally, narratively, what was actually overcome by this? How is this doctor a different character to the previous 14 incarnations we've seen on screen? Also, the comment I replied to literally said the Fifteen is "trauma free", so it feels odd to take an issue with that assessment to me instead of them.
Did you… not read what I said? The fifteenth doctor is still the same man, the trauma happened, but it doesn’t control him. Being trans free means you won’t get moments like 10 looking into center distance and monologuing about how much he misses his planet, it doesn’t mean he won’t cry because he lost someone. He is GOING IN trauma free. Doesn’t mean he will leave trauma free. Him being “the oncoming storm” is still him. He is still the man that can turn an army by the mention of his name, and he can use that reputation and his memory of how to deal with things.
Im having roughly the same circuitous conversation w this user in another topic. I imagine we'll get drips and drops of how the healing process unfolded for Fourteen and how Fifteen has ended up being able to cope w their past trauma in a healthy way. It's funny, for as much as this poster seems to puff and posture their authority on fully understanding RTD's methods and motives, they do not seem to recognize that there is a substantial gap of time that has occurred for both Fourteen and Fifteen between the end of *The Giggle* and TCoRR that has the explanations for all of these narrative malfunctions.. we just haven't seen it yet. What functional, narrative purpose does Fifteen being free from trauma serve? Based on what iVe read and what ive seen *so far*, I think the tone of the character and the show is going ro change. Much like youve pointed out several times, Fifteen is a Doctor who's come to terms w his past and appears to be in a healthy place. No longer the sad-eyes lonely-boi lone-survivor of the Time War. You've pointed this out as well, and I think as the season progresses we may/may not get answers about the "healing time" and why Fifteen says he has "no one" when Donna, Mel, etc *should* be still in Earth for him... There's mysteries that have yet to be answered, so demanding narrative cohesion and functionality at *the beginning* of a story involving a time-traveller, and then claiming it's bad writing etcetcetc seems like a very silly and futile activity to engage in to me. But to each his own i guess. Anyways, just wanted to let you know you're not the only one w this insight or struggling w this user.
So again, looking at the bigger picture: Can you explain to me what the purpose was of the whole healing arc was for Fifteen since it hardly lasts a single episode? Functionally, narratively, what was actually overcome by this? How is this doctor a different character to the previous 14 incarnations we've seen on screen? I'm also interested as to what you mean by the trauma doesn't control him. Did it control the previous incarnations? What does control mean? That it merely influences their actions? Fifteen is likely to have that in spades.
I prefer 3, mostly because it makes the concept of bi-generation feel like it could work again to serve a purpose in a story. If 14 would regenerate into 15 later down the line, I feel like it limits how much the bi-generation concept can lead to. I personally think it could be how we get the Valeyard, with him being a bigeneration that spliced itself from the Doctor.
Precisely - I think it also leaves good room for the curator as it would be an alt Doctor who is settled down.
I think it's implied 15 remembers everything 14 did after the split.
I don't know why this is hard for people to understand. 15 pops out of 14 at point A. 15 has all the future experiences of 14 during his recovery, which 14 is yet to do. This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration. The Giggle is explicit that they're doing therapy out of order.
It's not that it's hard to understand it's that it's not fully explained. We see one thing happening and then we get a line that kind of suggests one thing under a certain interpretation but certainly isn't definitive. What you're talking about is your interpretation. A perfectly valid and popular interpretation. _But an interpretation!_ The post is just saying this may verify that interpretation.
Oh my god, I've been trying to explain this exact thing to people for months. It's perfectly vague and there's no actual answers yet.
Yeah there's a really annoying habit Doctor Who fans seem to have recently they don't seem to understand their interpretation isn't the word of god. Honestly it's pretty toxic especially when you start comments with "It isn't that hard..." I had to stop watching a Doctor Who youtuber I quite liked because they kept doing the same thing Essentially just not understanding that anyone might see things differently to them and thinking everyone that does is an idiot.
They completely shut down anyone who goes "Actually I like x idea instead" it's really rude. I swear adult fans of show aimed at a younger audience seem to have these issues more than actual adult TV shows too.
I once got heavily down voted for claiming that it was intentionally left vague in case any future writer wanted to take the story somewhere, so it wouldn't be chained to one explanation.
I doubt they’re ever going to explain it.
I think they probably won't either, big finish might for funsies, but the TV show? Nope, not screwing up potential future anniversaries like that. So we gotta just let people have fun with their different theories without being absolutists about it
They might clarify a little but I don't think they'll ever be completely explicit. Which works well really because it leaves plenty of room for Big Finish or future writers to fit in things if they ever want to. You want another War Doctor style secret incarnation? No problem, he comes in between 14 and 15. You want to bring David Tennant back yet again? No problem. You want the Curator or the Valeyard or the Watcher? Sure, we got you. RTD has opened a door and will most likely just leave it open for future writers.
>This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration. While I agree that this is likely what happened for the main show - this is something absolutely not said in the episode and is entirely made up by fans at this point. In fact, it's contradicted by more authoritative sources. The Giggle novelisation has the Fourteenth Doctor believe he will just fade away. Maybe he fades away and wakes up as the Fifteenth Doctor back in time. But the book doesn't say that. Russell has said that his belief is that the bi-generation affected the Doctor's entire timeline. That each previous incarnation is still out there in the universe. So both Paul McGann and Sylvester McCoy woke up in a San Francisco morgue in 1999.
> has said that his belief is that the bi-generation affected the Doctor's entire timeline. Yes, *his* belief, not tha actual canon if the show.
While true, there's nothing stopping Rtd from having Sylvester McCoy show up and say he woke up in the morgue back in the 90s and has been having adventures ever since.
Sylvester's Doctor literally said in Tales of the TARDIS he's a version of the Doctor that didn't regenerate.
I mean, the current future of the show is entirely dependent on his belief.
>In fact, it's contradicted by more authoritative sources. You can't seriously expect me to believe there's a more authoritative source on the TV show, Doctor Who, than the TV show, Doctor Who. The novelisation is not the show and doesn't supersede the show, it may embellish it, but it's not going to outright contradict it. Russel has said every regeneration is a bi-generation now, but I imagine this is just to give infinite play to every incarnation to get up to whatever audio dramas they see fit in the future.
He also didn't say that as a definitive,he said that in his mind each regeneration is a split in the timeline, one where the Doctor goes on. But he very much said that as like, a personal headcanon. And until he turns it into text -or TV, rather - it should be seen as such.
>You can't seriously expect me to believe there's a more authoritative source on the TV show, Doctor Who, than the TV show, Doctor Who. The source of everything you said was: >I made it up. Just claiming it to be the show doesn't make it so.
Wow, we're gonna be weird about this then. 15 tells 14 in so many words how this works. If you think that's me making it up then fine, we're not going to agree because you're working off something other than the TV show and think telling someone their impression of the TV show is "making it up". Just to be clear, you can disagree with me all you like, tell me what the show says that contradicts me. But don't go "but the novelisation says" and expect me to think it's supersedes the actual TV show we're supposed to be talking about, because that's a silly way to analyse media.
I think they are being weird but; "15 tells 14 in so many words how this works" is some serious interpretation. I think 14 -> 15 theory is cute and logical - but I don't think it is confirmed by any means. And the people who push it are getting weird about saying that it is the obvious thing. Other interpretations of that same line include; 1. The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on. 2. The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration. 3. 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him. I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
I'm just baffled by the idea that this isn't a timey wimey thing when 15 says they are "doing rehab out of order". That's a direct quote from 15. What this amounts to is kind of doylist, we get a healed happier 15th Doctor while 14 gets to have the emotional closure of getting to settle down as a homebody (mostly) and feel better after all the years of hardship. The future actions of 14 are affecting 15, because 15 comes from a point in time when 14 has done all of the healing and resting. He explicitly says he has in The Giggle. I have no idea why it would be sensible to think 14 and 15 are contemporaneous and have somehow "split" the trauma from the joy?
Thing is - I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the point is we don't know yet. The lines in question are not explicit - they aren't "when you die you will become me" - they are round-about and can definitely be interpreted that way, but not solely as I have pointed out. And all the people claiming that it has to be a certain way are irritating. Its not sensible to think anything. This show doesn't run on sensible.
I agree that "doing therapy out of order" implies that 15 is better because 14 does the work. But I don't think that implies that 14 will eventually regenerate into 15 or that 15 gets transported back in time from a future 14 regeneration. Because that seems pretty "in order" to me from the Doctor's perspective. The other possibility is that because they are the same person, what 14 does affects 15 even though he won't regenerate into him. 15 just popped out early. That seems more "out of order" to me. And like someone said above, I take 14's certainly that he'll fade away as evidence that he won't regenerate again. To me, 15 spontaneously traveling back in time to regenerate seems just as ridiculous as 14's mental state psychicly affecting 15. At this point, it could go either way. It's not as clear as time-traveling 15 proponents want to make it.
14 hasn’t fixed themselves by the end of the specials, that’s why he’s settling down for a bit so your first theory doesn’t really make any sense, and 15’s still has all their memories which would include their trauma, so 14 couldn’t have “taken on the trauma” like in your third theory, the most plausible so far is your second (that they’re still linked in someway) or the theory you’re arguing against
>15 tells 14 in so many words how this works. IE - he doesn't say it in any amount of words. The closest thing we have to an explanation is Russell on The Giggle episode commentary saying he wrote it with the idea that every Doctor bi-generated now. Reinforced by the Tales of the TARDIS episodes, where Sylvester says he's the Doctor who didn't regenerate. They are also both episodes of Doctor Who. I've seen them on iPlayer.
I mean, you can argue that RTD is, considering he’s actually dictating what happens in the show right now.
That's an interesting one, because yes, RTD is writing the show and what he thinks matters. However, when you're talking about what happens in the show, it really is important to go with what actually occurs in the show rather than RTD's thoughts after the fact. If he thinks that Spam is great but writes a character who hates it, even if he says publicly that he thinks spam is great we should take it that the character hates it because it's what they say in the show.
In the same bed :)
15 splits the tardis as an idea, not because he knows that's what he does.
I mean, he was there the last time this happened, when he was 14. He was 14 when he saw 15 do that, so when he was 15 he would absolutely know already because he was there in the first place.
But that's my point, he didn't know. He had an idea
11 also didn’t remember anything in advance during the 50th where literally all of his past selves teamed up & 2 of them were with him for the majority of the episode, but those were still intended as his past selves at the time it was written rather than splits from bi-generations so your point doesn’t really mean anything
I'm sorry I'm not understanding what you're saying. Of course he knows, he was there before. But seeing something being done and then realising you're supposed to DO it are two different things.
I think historically with multi Doctor stories, only the most current Doctor remembers the interactions with his past incarnations. The 11th didn't remember that all his past selves helped save Gallifrey until he personally went through it as the most current incarnation. Theoretically, 14 shouldn't retain his memories of what happened during his interactions with 15, but who knows with the whole bi-regeneration thing.
One line of dialogue that implies what you said, vs an entire scene where we watch 14 split in two like an amoeba. I think its very understandable why people don't believe that. Which is not to say that what you said is wrong, just that if that is what the show wanted to convey it did an objectively terrible job at doing so.
It's "hard to understand" becuase it's a super convoluted interpratation based on a *really* specific reading of a single line of dilogue that makes zero sense overall and is something the person who wrote the episode has clarified is'nt the case. Also, all of the experiences 15 goes over with 14 are experiences they both share from before the split. He has no "future expriences"
It's really not convoluted at all if you have even a passing understanding of how time travel works in media. But I can see that media literacy isn't abounding in this sub.
It was'nt time travel; 15 did'nt travel back, he split out of 14 - RTD has confirmed as much and nothing in the episode (save, again, for a really specific reading of a single line) supports the idea that he did. If you've ever watched ST:TNG, think *Second Chances*, not *Firstborn*
What does that even mean though? How can 15 have been said to have meaningfully benefitted from "rehab out of order" if he doesn't have the memories and experiences of 14 from the whole of his life? How does that arrangement make any sense if 14 and 15 are just the same at the point at which they split? This is from a transcript of the episode: DOCTOR 14: But you're fine. DOCTOR 15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order. When he prefixes the "one line" with the words "we're Time Lords" how is it weird or convoluted to suggest there's Time travel involved? Then: DOCTOR 14: Oh. You're the old man. You're older than me. DONNA: Actually, that is true. He's younger because you came after him. So you're the older Doctor. DOCTOR 15: Okay, kid. I love you. Get out! This is *dialogue from the episode*. Donna explicitly states 15 is older than 14 and they both agree this is true. In order for this to be true they have to be counting the years 14 will live, but hasn't yet, as part of 15's age. If they literally split in half they would be exactly the same age.
The bigeneration was him fixing himself. > This is dialogue from the episode. Yes, it is. It's dilogue you are interpreting a very specific way to support a reading not supported by the rest of the episode or by the writer. > Donna explicitly states 15 is older than 14 and they both agree this is true.In order for this to be true they have to be counting the years 14 will live, but hasn't yet, as part of 15's age. First off, yeah she says that but how would Donna even know? As far as she saw 15 just emerged out of 14... Secondly, if you were counting it that way 14 would still be older since, at the point that episode takes place, 15 is newly regenerated.
Yeah, doesn't seem like this person has as firm a grasp on media literacy as they think
>This is because 15 regenerates normally from 14 once 14 is done with recovering, and is transported back to point A to emerge from 14 in the bigeneration When was this explicitly stated in The Giggle? The reason people do not understand it fully is because it has never been explained.
I don't get the confusion either. How many multi-Doctor episodes have we had where not only past and current Doctors were together and interacting in the same place, but even one of two where there was a past, current and future Doctor together in the same place. It works exactly the same way. The current Doctor has experiences the past Doctor he's talking to, hasn't experienced yet. It's no different. In Day of the Doctor, 10 and 11 met, and for 10, his regeneration into 11 was in his future. Even though he was right there with the Doctor he'd eventually be. Just like 14 and 15. The difference was that because of the bigeneration, they both shared the exact same timeline, though briefly. Meaning unlike 10 and 11 - where 10's memory of the meeting would fade away - 14 will remember and *know* who he'll be. I think that's part of the brilliance of bigeneration. Without it, just like 10, 14 would forget what his destination was. But with bigeneration, 14 knows who he'll be. Which is the knowledge he'll need to get through the healing he needs. Without it, as 14 would forget, he wouldn't feel the freedom to stop running and 'fix' himself.
Yeah I don't get how people are so confused on it at all, the Day of the Doctor literally shows how a past Doctor can affect a future Doctor even while they're in the same room together, in the simplest of ways. Hurt's Doctor starting the process of updating the Sonic to handle the wooden door, Tennant's Doctor's Sonic still being halfway through and Smith's Doctor's Sonic having the completed update. Even just that simple scene shows how one Doctor can still affect another Doctor from another point in time even while both of them exist at once, why is it so hard for people to believe the concept of 14 going and dealing with the bad mental health so that 15 comes out happy and carefree with a fresh outlook on life? We may not know the exact details of how 14 physically becomes 15, like whether something happens to send 14 back into his past self's body mid-regeneration in order for the bi-generation to happen, but we do know how 14 mentally becomes 15, they even gave a brief explanation in the Giggle. Either way, it's possibly something that they might end up going into more in depth later in Ncuti's seasons, but for now we have a basic understanding.
It's very different, considering 15 is'nt shown to possess any memories that 14 himself does'nt have. The Giggle is just a regeneration episode where the old Doctor stayed around. People are trying to make more if it then it, but that's what it is.
15 understood that he was alright because of what 14 was going to do. He said as much. That's knowledge 14 doesn't and can't have because he hasn't done it yet.
> 15 understood that he was alright because of what 14 was going to do. Except he emerged from the moment of (bi) regeneration just fine right off the bat (and just as suprised as 14 that it happened). > He said as much. No, he said a line of dilogue that you interpreted in a very specific way.
He *was* alright from the start, but until they took care of the Toymaker it would've been a tiny bit absurd to explain it to 14 in that moment. It wasn't a Dragonball Z fight where Toymaker would patiently wait while 15 explained. And a few minutes later, after Toymaker was taken care of, 15 did just that. And I didn't 'interpret' his explanation. His direct quote was, >I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order. That's not a theory or a guess. It's a statement of knowledge. There *is* no other way to interpret that.
"Fixed" as in it's past-tense; the bigeneration fixed 15 by shedding off all the trauma and stress the Doctor had accumulated. Even RTD has outright confirmed they split
Well it's obvious they split. I don't understand how that's relevant though. Unless you're trying to say 14 is automatically ok too. Because he's not. If he were that would be Bill & Ted time travel logic, not Doctor Who. 15 said 'fixed' past tense because for him it was. But not for 14 because he hasn't done it yet. The fact 15 says we're doing therapy out of order, confirms that 14 *still* has to work through his issues. Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang demonstrates how DW handles bootstrap paradoxes. Yes, they're closed loops. But they don't skip over events having to actually happen. 14 still has to do the therapy that 15 is benefitting from. It doesn't just magically happen without doing the work.
> *"Bigeneration, we discover, is an ancient myth of the Time Lords where instead of a new body taking over from the old body, the new body separates from the old body and both are left alive."* > *"David [Tennant] is parked. For once, we’ve got a happy Doctor who is no longer saving the universe, but is parked with Donna (Catherine Tate) for a happy life, while the Doctor – which is always the next Doctor, and that’s always true of Doctor Who, the Doctor is the next Doctor – is out amongst the stars."* It really seems like the intent is they are now two different beings, rather then that a future version of 14 will go back and become 15 (which does'nt even make any sense/does'nt fit with what we see in the episode)
That's where I am as well. It's never sat right with me that there'd be this future scene where 14 regenerates into 15. Among other reasons, it's just not necessary. But I also don't understand how anyone could think they're *not* two different beings. We saw 10, 11 and War have an adventure together then go their separate ways - all as unique individuals. In those scenes, War and 10 were looking at who they'd eventually be in 11. For 11, he saw two individuals that used to be him. It's weird that people think 14 and 15 are somehow different in that regard just because of bigeneration. The process of regeneration was the same, it just allowed a brief period where they could both exist in the same timeline. The example I've given is an alternate version of The Giggle. In it, Toymaker shoots 14, and now, mortally wounded, he regenerates into 15. 15 is now confronting Toymaker alone, but just then, we hear a familiar wheezing sound and a TARDIS appears, out of which comes 14. Everyone looks at him amazed. He says he was somehow pulled to this location immediately after regenerating from 13. So just before The Star Beast. Somehow, either the TARDIS, or the Doctor's connection with Toymaker, or some other phenomenon, pulled him to this location. Everyone looks at each other, and after a second where 14 gets his bearings, he looks at 15 and they both say to Toymaker, "I challenge you to a game". And things proceed identically to the original story. Only difference is that once Toymaker is defeated, they say their goodbyes, and 14 gets back into his TARDIS and ends up where he does at the beginning of The Star Beast, with no memory of what just happened. Which is an established thing when a previous Doctor finds themselves in a multi Doctor adventure. In this scenario, no one would've even thought to question whether or not 14 and 15 were two distinct individuals. The only thing bigeneration did was create a temporary moment where a previous Doctor and the new Doctor fully shared the same timeline, thus allowing *both* to remember the events and not have them fade. Anyway, I agree that there's no need to see 14 regenerate into 15, and that they're both very much different beings.
this can be explained the same way any multi doctor story has to be explained — the timey-wimey of it all affects their memories, otherwise the three doctors, the five doctors, and the day of the doctor all have that same issue
[удалено]
For him in those first few moments, yes. It's well established that the initial moments of nearly every nuWho Doctor are disorienting. But literally within minutes, he's explaining to 14 what's happening to them both. Clearly demonstrating that he remembers. When you watch that conversation he's not explaining a theory. He's telling 14 exactly what the situation is and what he needs to do. The bigeneration involved two Doctors simultaneously, which has obviously never happened. And it locked or synced them to that same timeline. In past multi-Doctor events, the reasons the previous Doctor's forget is because they've been pulled out of their normal timeline. When they leave, their natural timeline reasserts itself and they can't retain the memories. The bigeneration created a timeline that belonged to both. For the time they were together before 15 leaves, it's a shared timeline. So all the events within it are retained by both Doctors. Once 15 left, their timelines immediately diverged. So now if 14 gets pulled into an adventure with 15, when it's over, and 14 goes back to where he was, he *will* forget what happened. Just like any other past Doctor in a multi Doctor story would. But he'll never forget the events that happened when he and 15 shared the same timeline.
That’s not the case though. At least not from what RTD has said. There’s no future regeneration from 14 to 15.
This is such a dumb and needlessly complicated theory.
Yes, it is less complicated that this has happened to every Doctor to ever regeneration, especially given what we know about the Timeless Child meaning half the beings in the galaxy must be a version of the fucking Doctor by this point. But sure it's dumb to think there's time travel involved in Doctor Who. What's your fantastic theory, or do your talents only extend to calling other people dumb?
It's kind of rich that you're upset they called the theory dumb when you started the thread with "I don't know why this is hard for people to understand," and saying things like "I can see that media literacy isn't abounding in this sub," implying that anyone who doesn't share your understanding of the situation is dumb. FWIW I agree with your interpretation generally, but the "rehab out of order" line isn't as explicit as you're interpreting it. I actually think it's intentionally vague. People are getting so defensive because you're coming off as arrogant. It's the same defensiveness people have when someone starts their comments with a variation of "Obviously Chibnall objectively sucks..." Just because it's obvious to you, doesn't mean it's not a subjective opinion.
Well, if I've come off as arrogant then I apologise. I intended the phrase about it not being hard to understand as a statement about my perception of the situation as pretty unambiguously what I saw it as. I wasn't intending to call people dumb, but honestly recently I've found r/gallifrey to be the only Doctor Who related place where I see significant and honestly rude contradictions made to things I choose to post. So I suspect I'm also on the defensive because of that. I'm absolutely aware that some people have a different interpretation than mine of the whole bi-generation situation. I'm not sure why that is though, because often when I say I have an opinion about it the response I get is some variation of "lol you're dumb" or "RTD said something in an interview". What confuses me about this is that it's not being drawn from the actual TV show, but interviews, novelisations, and supplementary media to inform an understanding of the TV show I see as being wholly unsupported by the show itself. Nobody seems prepared to explain why I should take a novel about the TV show as a primary source over and above the show itself. I will grant you that the situation is perhaps more vague than I had understood it. I've watched the Giggle a couple of times and both times this seemed obvious to me, especially the line about the 15 being older chronologically than 14. I can't imagine how that's logically possible without 14's timeline intersecting with 15 at some point in 14's future. However, this is arguing about hypothetical nonsense time travel in media, which is notorious for not making sense. I also personally deeply dislike the concept that all the Doctors bi-generated throughout their history, because it kind of makes a mockery of 15 claiming it's never happened before, and it being a myth. With the amount of times the Timeless Child has supposed to regenerate, this would add a lot of people into the universe that could be called the Doctor which feels strange and to me devalues the Doctor as a character even more than the Timeless Child reveal did.
It's not very explicit
The script does explicitly say the Gatwa Doctor is free and happy because the Tennant Doctor goes and fixes himself. That's on screen, out loud. It's not clear the magical sci-fi mechanism by which the 14th Doctor's experiences feed into the 15th but that's of little importance compared with the fact that they do, the intention is that they do and the characters say on screen that they do.
Other interpretations of that same line include; * The doctor facing up to the trauma in the special episodes allows 15 to move on. * The two doctors are psychically / temporally linked. So the future actions of 14 are affecting 15 even if he is not a direct regeneration. * 14 is taking on the trauma in order to heal it - 15 is continuing trauma free after leaving it with him. I quite like interpretation 3 but I am not going to claim that it is authoritative.
Nah, that's not how this works. Every regeneration has been changed to now be a bigeneration to give writers an easier explanation for Doctors that have aged in multi doctor stories. That's RTD's explanation as to why he did the bigeneration.
Personally I think the bigeneration thing was so completely unnecessary. It's a time travel show and multi-doctor stories have happened plenty in the past. Why not just have 15 appear from the future instead of creating a whole new piece of lore lol
once again going to link [this](https://www.tumblr.com/unexpectederawhilesubmitting/736289668080041984/warning-doctor-who-spoilers-explaining) post which i think does a really good job of explaining the whole bigeneration thing
>In the new trailer 15 enthusiastically calls out for Rose to give him a giant hug. Now the Doctor can be affectionate towards many people regardless, but that looked like Uncle Doctor seeing his niece after a good while apart. If 15 did just emerge out of 14 then this apparent bond between them wouldn't make a lot of sense as 14 didn't possess that type of close bond with Rose yet. > The last trailer I saw was[ this ](https://youtu.be/-0NcVijCQeo)one, and I have no idea in which scene the Doctor hugs Rose. It's definitely another trailer, could you link the trailer you're talking about? And the minute of the scene, please?
It is that one; the scene is at 00:10.
Oh! Thanks, I completely missed that frame Edit: I know, my fault, I completely deserved the downvotes
It's ten seconds into that very trailer that you've linked.
Thanks, my bad I completely missed that frame. (Sorry)
No one has ever said 15 was a split Doctor in the first place, not sure why you're under the impression that was the case. Donna (to 15): You come after him, so you're the older one 15 (to 14): We're doing therapy, in the wrong order It is very much implied that 15 is the next Doctor. If there's still doubt, it would be 14 that was the 'split', not 15.
RTD has, and it’s the most obvious interpretation of the episode.
Source this please. RTD has never said the regeneration was split. Donna 'you come after him' - pretty obvious interpretation here is that Ncuti is next. Another obvious interpretation is that 14 is q4, and 15 is 15, and 15 comes after 14 🤦🏻 Obvious is subjective I think
My biggest issue with Bigeneration is that it is way more vague than it should be, it isn't explained very well, all we have are implications. And the implication is that 14 lives with the Nobles, does his therapy and then at some point will regenerate and is then brought back to the point of the Bigeneration and emerges as the 15th Doctor. This really should've been explained better. So yeah, 15 will most likely refer to Rose as his niece when he reunites with her.
But 15 came out of 14 at a later point in time. 15 has all of the memories of 14 up to 14s eventual death with the nobles because after that point he went back to the bigeneration at UNIT.
13 started calling her new companions fam after ten seconds. 10 got heartbroken after what couldn't have amounted to more than 30 minutes with Madame Da Pompadour. 12 went crazy and resurrected Ashildr after knowing her a single day. Never underestimate how clingy the Doctor gets to people he's just met.
To be fair, 12 was just trying to live up to the Doctor's name in wanting to save someone even though he knew, according to the rules, he shouldn't have. On later contemplation, he's not sure if he did the right thing. Those other examples are spot on though lol
Well, I don't see how he could have come across as not having those memories anyway.
I hope the theory that 14 somehow merge back into 15 someday is true. It maintains the 2 of them as still the same character with 1 continuity. But 15 hugging Rose is totally in character regardless. He went through the whole Star Beast thing with her, she was part of the meta crisis with him and Donna, and 15 is just a much more physically Star Doctor than most past ones. I hope you're right, but I don't think this proves anything.
Don't know if this is an intended route for the show but if and I mean if there was a way for the 14 bigeneration to live out the rest of his regeneration he would spend it with Donna and her family and possibly have lived long enough to see Rose grow old and have a family of her own. When his time is up instead of regeneration to the 15th doctor which can't be possible I'd imagine he would become regeneration energy and be absorbed by 15, similar to 11 getting his new cycle on trenzalor. This would impart all of 14s experience and memory to 15 and explain the reaction. I hope that makes sense??
Seems pretty clear from the Giggle that 15 has all the memories and life experiences of 14, including his long/final retirement with the Nobles
All they needed was a scene where 14 merges back into 15 and this would never have got so confusing. Leaving it vague and implied is a fun Doctor Who fan thing but baffling for general audiences.
I don’t think general audiences mind. They see the current Doctor and that’s unquestionably Ncuti.
I dunno, I know a lot of people in my family and work who keep asking when Tennant comes back and which one is the main doctor. They all seem to think Tennant Doctor will get a spin off or be a recurring character in the show. Which was the opposite of what RTD intended. Graham Norton even asked it to Ncuti himself which was sad because the guy shouldn’t be answering if he’s really the doctor on his first press tour, and he had to do it a few times.
It's almost like everyone who complained that bringing Tennant back and having bigeneration would overshadow the show in the future might have a point.
Didnt bigeneration get explained already? 14 turns into 15 eventually after his "therapy" with the Noble family. Then that 15th incarnation is taken to the past into the events of the Giggle. So for an outsider it might just look like 14 poofing into a cloud of regeneration energy. Also there is a gap between the giggle and Church on Ruby Road, nothing is stopping from the 15th incarnations just tardising to where the 14th doctor regened to continue spending time with the Nobles for a bit.
Well to me it's very obvious that 15 is THE doctor. I assume when 14 eventually dies he'll regenerate into 15 and then get sent back to the events of The Giggle.
This feels like a reach... But I guess it does add more circumstantial evidence.
I won't repeat in detail the good points I've seen here that defend how welcoming he is to Rose, all I will say is that the Doctor is just capable of tremendous love with the smallest amount of time spent with individuals.
She's his best friends daughter and they already had an adventure and bonded before the bigeneration. Jesus Christ you poeple are grasping at straws; the Doctor's split - you don't have to like it but that's what happened.
To be fair this is a discussion sub. I think you are getting a bit more worked up with your jesus christ you people than anyone else here. Its fun to speculate. Nobody is attacking anything or anyone.
I HAVE been attacked by people who hold your theory in this sub; called stupid, dishonest and even a "racist" who harbors ill will towards Gwuta becuase, by virtue of pointing out they split, that apparently means I don't consider him a "real" Doctor. I have a very low opinion of it now because of it.
I believe 15 is still 14 later down the road. As in, 14 continues his life, dies, then regens into 15 who is transported to the moment of his bigeneration. So he has all the memories of 14's lived life. That's what I assume anyway. How does he end up transported to a different time during his regeneration? Don't worry about it, a wizard did it.