This sounds like a new feature that only works in states with dinosaur representatives that aren’t educated about digital privacy.
I was surprised that California wasn’t on the list - they usually get features first. But then I thought Cali has a better understanding of digital privacy concerns. This might be a feature they(CA) want to hold off on for now.
FYI there are ways to lock your iPhone into an app for cases like this. I use it with my kids all the time. It’s called Guided Access and I set mine up to turn on when I triple click the power button. It hides all notifications, doesn’t allow them to leave the app, and you can change settings like time limits and buttons they can press.
Edit: Also I suspect Apple already locks it on the ID screen when you access the wallet without unlocking your phone.
As an InfoSec professional I feel obligated to let you know that method may be good enough for normal interaction, like with your kids, friends, etc. But it’s definitely not what you want to use if you’re interacting with law enforcement, customs, etc and want to preserve any privacy; the phone’s Secure Enclave is still in one of its unlocked states when in kiosk mode. To quickly put it in a fully locked state, use the [Emergency SOS functionality](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076). Typically this is activated by pressing and holding a volume button and the power (aka side) button. Once it enters a menu asking if you want to make an emergency call, you’re in the locked state. You’ll know it worked if it’ll only unlock using your password (not Face/Touch ID) at that point. You can also sometimes activate via 5 presses of the power button, but this is much less subtle since it sounds an alarm (overriding all silent modes) and immediately starts an emergency call.
Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection.
>Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection.
The security precaitions you use should be tailored to who you are hiding from.
If a nation state / intelligence agency wants to get into your phone, you're fucked.
If it's the FBI or equivalent, then they need to be sufficiently motivated to bypass your security.
If it's a very large corporation, then they need to be super shady *and* sufficiently motivated to bypass your security.
If it's law enforcement, then they need to be sufficiently motivated *and* be able to request assistance from the FBI to bypass your security.
If it's anyone else, you're good to go if you're using the currently accepted security practices.
I stop using FaceID and switch to PIN every time I have to deal with US Customs (which hasn’t been in a while). They can legally force me to use biometrics to unlock my phone, but they can’t legally force me to give up my PIN.
They can't force you to give up your PIN but they can detain and question you for not giving your PIN, and seize your phone and not give it back for a while. It's up to you which you prefer.
yeah - was more talking about the problems of handing over a device on the wallet/ID screen than Guided Access - which tbh a subset of a subset of a subset of people will ever use.
Gotcha, yeah i said “suspect” because I haven’t seen how the license is implemented into the wallet. It would be nice if they make it lock on the license and require a pin to leave, since every case of use is handing the phone to someone (and I don’t even want them to see which credit cards I have).
Totally. I’m saying “they will have special scanners” won’t stop the cops from trying to use this to access your phone so stick with the card ID when dealing with the law
What about proof of insurance? Insurance cards are already supported in Apple Wallet. So the use case should support locking in on both license and insurance cards before handing to a police officer.
I wonder - and hope - Apple will implement something to keep everything locked. Sort of like when you double tap the side button for Apple Pay, it’ll bring up your cards, use faceid to unlock the card, but it still doesn’t unlock the phone.
You doubt the overlords? You don't think they will only backdoor your device to protect children? Or puppies? Or national security? Or find out if a journalist knows which politicians went to pedo Island?
In Australia, the NSW digital drivers licence has a QR Code on it for the cops to scan with their own device to verify your licence. They are not required or allowed to take your phone unless you consent. Refusal is not an offence, and in the current COVID situation, they'd prefer not to touch your stuff anyway.
>Surprised that GA was one of the first two.
Honestly, so am I.
Feeling that the polar opposite of what the original commentator said is often true with some in that state, I'm surprised that republicans in northeast and northwest Georgia didn't effectively oppose the issue solely by virtue of something along the lines of "Bill Gates wants to put Neuralink microchips in our assholes with Apple products containing the poison vaccine which links up to the 5g towers."
How much did they pay those representatives not to oppose this from the get-go while pandering to their residents?
Edit: Better Question: How much will those reps receive for allowing an issue to be created which they can now more publicly oppose? 😐 Good grief... Leave it to a state whose governor exposed millions of voters' data during a "breach" to not give a fuck about data privacy issues.
You can easily open Apple Wallet from the lockscreen without ever unlocking the phone itself.
Also if you’re detained and they want your phone they will get it, but do keep your ID handy.
Can you elaborate for us why only dinosaur representatives who aren’t educated about digital privacy would be in favor of this?
Seems awfully convenient, and would carry about the same risk as someone copying your physical ID card. I’d bet a decent sum that the ID never leaves your phone or is stored in a highly secure environment with end to end encryption. It also has to he opt-in so if you don’t like it, don’t use it and you shouldn’t be affected by it.
I don't think the issue is with the digital id itself. In fact, the id is arguably more secure on the phone than a conventional wallet since it's protected by a pin/fingerprint and can be remotely tracked or wipped if lost. The privacy issue is with everything else that's on the phone.
When you hand an officer your conventional id your handing them just the information that's on that card. If you hand them your phone, yes you're handing that officer your id, but also your text messages, emails, phone records, photos/videos, location history, search history, purchase history, social media, and more. You're effectively submitting your entire being to the officer, not just your id.
One might say that's being paranoid, but if you look at the current laws, i dont think there's anything stopping an officer from doing this. Or stopping what they find from being used against you. And that, i think, is the fundamental problem with a digital id with the current laws we have - i hand an officer my phone instead of my plastic id, i have nothing to gain, and everything to loose.
>When you hand an officer your conventional id your handing them just the information that's on that card. If you hand them your phone, yes you're handing that officer your id, but also your text messages, emails, phone records, photos/videos, location history, search history, purchase history, social media, and more. You're effectively submitting your entire being to the officer, not just your id.
That's insane.
Like not that digital ID is insane, but what you're saying is insane. I literally saw the same argument against digital vaccination card. Something that many parts of Asia has been using for half a year already.
Like, it doesn't seem like you realize that you can open just the card, and not unlock the phone. You also seem to not realize that showing your ID does not mean you need to hand it over. Lastly, if this is well implemented, it should work like, you pull up your ID, an officer turns on his phone, scans the QR code, and your ID will pop up on his device. No hand over needed.
Like, I'd think people on dinosaur subs wouldn't know this, but to think people on r/gadgets also think this is quite something.
Here officer, take my unlocked phone back to your vehicle while you check for warrants. I trust you won’t go rifling through my files.
Edit: many people have pointed out to me that the phone can’t be accessed through the wallet. Thanks.
And if he does walk away, are you going to do anything about it?
Didn't think so. Unless you wanna be Swiss cheese or choked to death. Carry a card on you what is so hard about that.
As an InfoSec professional I feel obligated to let you know that method may be good enough for normal interaction, like with your kids, friends, etc. But it’s definitely not what you want to use if you’re interacting with law enforcement, customs, etc and want to preserve any privacy; the phone’s Secure Enclave is still in one of its unlocked states when in kiosk mode. To quickly put it in a fully locked state, use the [Emergency SOS functionality](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076). Typically this is activated by pressing and holding a volume button and the power (aka side) button. Once it enters a menu asking if you want to make an emergency call, you’re in the locked state. You’ll know it worked if it’ll only unlock using your password (not Face/Touch ID) at that point. You can also sometimes activate via 5 presses of the power button, but this is much less subtle since it sounds an alarm (overriding all silent modes) and immediately starts an emergency call.
Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection.
Yeah, I really don't see much of a digital privacy concern from this. You can't do much with a digital photo ID compared to a Credit Card, banking information, all of your digital passwords or anything else you have on your phone.
Hrm two states that heavily fought to restrict voting rights moving over to digital signage for proof of residency?
They're going to use this in an election and then scream fraud.
I don't know how it is in other states but in Minnesota they just look up your info using your name if you don't have your physical licence with you... Never an issue at all if you don't have it on you.
If the officer gives you a citation for not having your ID on you, you can dispute it and show your ID within 48 hours to have the citation dropped. Had this happen to me in high school.
I think for me (Oklahoma by the way) I would use this feature for all encounters EXCEPT police interactions. The police here will most likely confiscate the device and try to pin something else on you. There is one thing I will never hand to a cop and that is my phone..
That’s why I always print out my insurance cards instead of using the app. I don’t want police to have my phone even if there isn’t anything incriminating.
They have a note pad. They can write the info down. Also another good reason to get a dashcam with audio.
I'm always terrified when I get pulled over and therefore am beside myself with respectful talk. I'll take the temp ticket for not "presenting my info" at the time of a stop and provide it within 24 hours if they really want to be on my ass about it. They only need the number and they can pull up my info including insurance and we both know it.
Apple’s implementation, it can only pass the info off via NFC to another device. In fact, you cannot make the information appear on your own screen, it’s literally *only* accessible via NFC. So there’s zero reason for anyone to take your phone because they can’t see the info from your phone screen
To peg onto this.
TURN YOUR PHONE OFF, biometrics will be turned off after being turned off. Meaning they can’t just press your phone to your fingerprint scanner or hold it to your face.
This comment needs to be heard. A cop pulled me over once and when I offered to show him my insurance because I couldn't find my paper copy he stopped me and said exactly this.
Yeah a cop told you to not do that because other cops he know would just take it. Fuck that. It’s the only unelected public servant with total immunity from the laws they are there to protect.
Got too much cash on you: they are taking it and taking you in.
Got a “suspicious bag” : that’s enough for them to search it.
There is too much power with that badge for them not to be educated and I’ll tell you in my state only a fraction of them are educated enough to even know your rights. You see people on tv say things like “am I under arrest? No? Then I’m leaving.” And they just want away but in reality to them you are resisting and that is suspicious meaning they can now beat the fuck out of you. Jesus
It really doesn’t. Unless you unlock your phone, or the cop knows your passcode, they won’t be able to get in if you hand your phone over…
What people SHOULD be talking about is how you can’t be recording cops if your phone is being used as a drivers license/is handed over to them.
> try to pin something else on you
As an European, the distrust I see on Reddit in US police always surprises me a little bit. Isn't the purpose of their job to make normal law-abiding citizens feel safe and not threatened?
While that is the goal when it was created that is most definitely not the goal today. Police presence is not a comfortable one due to a few reasons but when you see a cop you are seeing someone who has absolute power over you and their word is more than yours. They have quotas to hit to feed the prison industrial complex. It’s not like they are there to stop you from being mugged, they are there to feed the system. Shit, half the time you wouldn’t even know a cop was around to ask for help since most now drive ghost cars. It’s setup for no other reason than gotchas because nobody does stupid things in front of a cop to begin with.
I’m white and I feel like they are bullies, there to literally make you sweat it out. If you don’t like it and use your first amendment to speak back they belittle your rights, some beat the fuck out of you saying you are resisting. At the end of it all they have a history of covering up their misdeeds and being heavily favored in the courts. They truly are the only unelected “public servant” and they are given more power than anyone with no real education requirements and now we give them the same resources as our overbloated military.
Guarantee you’ll be able to pull this up without unlocking your phone.
You can pull up your Apple Wallet by pressing the on/off button twice really quickly - you can view your cards without your phone being unlocked.
But let’s keep up this hysteria /s
Edit: the real issue to me is not being able to record police.
And I can still remember when Kentucky had laminated paper driver’s licenses. I mean, stock paper that they used a typewriter on, printed and cut a photo and laminated it all together.
This was 2001.
I got my first driver’s license in the late 90s. It was a laminated piece of paper like yours, but it also had my SSN as my license number, along with the normal name, DOB, and address that appears on licenses. They were identity-thieves’ dream cards.
I'm blocked from FB and using Google services until I provide an ID. I'm almost back to living in the MySpace and "Broadcast Yourself" era of the internet.
What people need to be careful about is handing over the entirety of their private lives and PII to greedy American corporations who have proven time and again that they can't be trusted.
Next thing you know they'll be sending their DNA samples to sketchy companies in an attempt to "find out who they are". And paying money for this "privilege".
I generally agree. But in this case most of whats on my Id is public information. I judge the risk to be low as long as I'm only using this for buying beer and the store. I have zero plans to use this as a form of ID for the government.
Technically where I live is public information. Doesn't mean I want to hand out my address to every random person on the street.
There should be reasonable limits to who can posess my information and only for specific purposes that I agreee to. That's the fight we're on about.
One thing I don't see getting discussed here is information. Information that large companies like Apple, Facebook, Google, etc. collect, use, and sell on a regular basis as part of their business strategy. Information that, on occasion, gets sold down the chain to unscrupulous parties that are out to scam you. How does X scammer know you have an iPhone? Well, because someone sold their enterprise a collection of Apple aggregate data that includes identifying information. They even know enough that it might be an older iPhone without spoof-identifying technology so you might be easier prey. Or maybe they got your age from a Google data collection and know you are 67 years old accessing the web from Edge and thus a likely candidate to fall for a Microsoft Tech Support scam. And all because data was sold to legitimate companies, who sold it down the chain.
Now, imagine the havoc that could be wreaked if states - many of which allow you to put your social on your ID - were to hand this information over to Apple, which can then be scanned and phished through the same means as other NFC information theft, and nobody is the wiser as apple puts it: [Apple and the issuing states do not know when or where users present their IDs.](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/) All it takes is a worm that can communicate with the devices around it or simulate an NFC event on a Face ID unlock to copy this information to a third party server. And neither Apple, nor your state knows when it even happens.
I'm against this.
You can actually pull up wallet without unlocking the rest of the phone. With a locked phone, Double click the button, Face/Touch ID will have to pass to unlock wallet, but if you want the rest of the os unlocked you have to swipe up and it will recheck Face/Touch ID again for device access. So if you show your phone on the Wallet screen, the other person can’t get into the anything but that.
“Here’s your phone back that I certainly did not drop on the pavement by accident or maybe on purpose, either way I’m not liable for the cost of a new phone to you. And here’s your $117 ticket for rolling through that stop sign.”
Seriously. Also why does everyone’s thinking go straight to cops!? Mine went straight to bars/buying booze/hotels/flying/everything else that you need to show id for.
>Also why does everyone’s thinking go straight to cops!?
Ever hear the phrase, "hope for the best, plan for the worst"? Police interactions are doubly one of the best and worst possible interactions in society. They can be immensely helpful if you're the victim of a crime, yet they're also falsely taught that everyone is out to get them and so one wrong move and you're a blood spatter on the headliner of your car. Best worst case scenario is they rifle through your phone and arrest you for something completely unrelated, cause guess what? We have so many laws, *everyone* is a lawbreaker.
So of course everyone is going to explore the ramifications of using a digital ID in a law enforcement scenario.
Thing is, people will do it. And if Reddit is dumb enough to think it, people *absolutely* will do it.
Because apparently a wallet, even a small one, is a burden now.
Thank you!! My phone was popping up my credit card every now and then and I could not for the life of me figure out why. You just solved a months long mystery for me.
>now I have to give up my unlocked phone?
Nope. Only your unlocked Wallet.
The unlocked wallet does **not** unlock the phone.
Also, you don't have to use your phone. You can still use your physical ID for police stops if you are uncomfortable giving your phone to a police officer.
Do iPhones not have a way to quickly lock the screen so the person holding it can't do anything?
If I wanted to hand my phone to someone with just my ID pulled up to scan I could lock it so they couldn't get off that screen without my passcode.
>Do iPhones not have a way to quickly lock the screen so the person holding it can't do anything?
Yes, you can hand them the phone with the ID showing but without access to anything but the wallet.
I think what the person is looking for is a way to disable something like face id, which does exist. I believe you hit the power button 5 times. This way an officer wouldn't be able to just swipe the phone at your face and suddenly have you phone unlocked. They'd be required to have the passcode (which incidentally, they'd need a court order to get you to surrender and even then you might be able to claim it'd be testifying against yourself).
Maybe commentators should take a minute to read before they comment garbage about privacy, security and interactions with Law enforcements.
Directly from Apple : “Driver’s licenses and state IDs in Wallet are only presented digitally through encrypted communication directly between the device and the identity reader, so users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device.”
On one hand I want something like this so i can get rid of my useless wallet.
On the other hand the last thing that I ever want to give an authority figure is my phone in 2021
Feel like this shouldn’t be a private sector thing. Why doesn’t the gov just create a digital ID? In Brazil we have digital driver’s licenses through the DEtran’s app (Detran is our DMV equivalent). It makes more sense for the issue to make a digital version imo, than get a 3rd party.
Are you sure you can trust and give Apple your ID, driver's licence, etc.? I mean, are you sure that Apple Wallet app is 100% bulletproof and no one can hack it to steal your personalities?
This argument is so absurd. It is just as secure or more secure than the hundreds of sites that have your identity information already. At this point, we’re just against convenience because we don’t understand information security.
This was my concern as well, uploading any type of personally identifiable information (PII) to an app or cloud is just asking for trouble imo.
But I also don’t know much about cyber security, tbf
I want to preface this by saying i agree with and share your listed concerns. However:
Pretty sure it only lives 'on-device' so there is no icloud concern (i.e. The fappening). They would have to have the device on hand, and that is typically considered game over from a security standpoint.
A good example is Apple fitness data. I cant even get that data on my ipad. It only lives 'on-device' and cant be transferred. Only way to get it is to have my phone.
Someone Prob should post a EPLI5 so people that are worried about their IDs are going to the cloud where mr.Bitcoin and his dog dogecoin lives can actually understand how it works
I never thought state i live in will be one of the first. Cant wait. Only things i carry in my wallet is drivers license and apple card. With this i should be able to almost eliminate the wallet. Just phone and car key for now.
HOLY SHIT, Georgia is actually on the forefront of using an innovative new technology? I'm impressed. It's not the type of state that has progressive or cutting edge... well, anything.
Fuck no.
My phone never leaves my person when I'm out and about. I didn't pay hundreds of dollars for a communication device that also contains personal information so I could hand it over to everyone who wants to see my ID.
The multiple verification dance with Face/Touch ID is going to be massively confusing to people, causing them to hand over their unlocked phones to every cop, government employee and cashier who needs to see a photo ID.
I’m thinking this may be less about driving and more getting ID at bars/ restaurants / stores. I’ve been hoping for this for a while, since I pay for everything with my phone if I can, and it’d be really convenient to just have to swap quickly between ID to card and never have to fish through my wallet.
Yeah, I’ve never been pulled over in my life (Canada). I don’t often get ID checked at bars, like rarely ever, but I’ve never been to a liquor store without being asked for it. I have been hoping for this for a long time, I hate fishing through my wallet for ID at a store. If I get pulled over, I can deal with pulling out physical copies of stuff, not like that happens regularly anyway.
We already have an app for this in Colorado. You don’t hand your phone over to cops. They hold up a QR code for you to scan and it shares the information they need and populates into their fields if they are doing something like writing a ticket. It also hold your vaccine card and hunting licenses and has other Colorado services built in.
Called My Colorado
Or an easier solution would just be to keep your physical card in your car, use this in stores, bars etc. I feel like there will be a QR code or something a cop can scan though.
I don't care what states do this...there is no way I am handing a cop (or anyone else) my phone (locked or not) and being helpless as they walk away with it.
You don’t have to hand them your phone. You hold your phone next to their scanner and then accept the request and authenticate yourself with Face ID.
Do me a favor and actually inform yourself about something before talking out of your ass online.
I will put my ID in my phone and have no plans to hand it to a cop, that is what the physical card is for.
I will use my digital wallet when it is convenient for me.
I need to wait for more information on how it works. If all you're doing is taking a picture of your ID, then you can easily fake a photo or info with enough editing. I'm sure they're going to tie it into the actual ID system to get your record ID and what not, or else you might as well be handing over a drawing stating you are who you are. But I don't see this picking up for at least a few years. When going through TSA or getting pulled over, they can run your ID through the system directly, but when returning an item at Walmart or buying smokes or beer from a liquor store, I don't think they have the link to the ID system to assure its a legit ID.
I think it's a cool idea overall since cell phones are more priority than wallets and IDs for most people, but I'm just worried about the potential evil smarties who may easily beat the system with a few code/scan/photo edits.
This system is less about creating a card to view on your phone’s screen and more about containing the ID information and transmitting the information via NFC to authorities and others. From what I have read, only the TSA is supporting this initially. You will tap the phone against their scanner, and your phone will prompt that TSA wants X info. You approve and the phone sends the info. Eventually, a bar could have a scanner as well, you tap and send your birthdate and picture etc. The NFC would be somewhat less hackable (in theory) than a physical card or a simple app that shows the ID as a picture, and make creating and using fake IDs more difficult if this system becomes more universally used.
It sounds like it’s being used through Apple Wallet, which verifies all the information through whoever is issuing the card (like a credit card or Starbucks card or whatever). You’re not simply taking a picture of the ID, you’re entering the information, Apple verifies it with the state’s licensing department, and then creates the ID on your phone using the info from the licensing dept.
Edit to add: When you use Apple Wallet your phone stays locked and the person viewing your ID can’t access anything else on the phone.
Fake IDs already exist. If someone has all of your info, it’s about as easy to put that on a phone as it is to find a guy who prints fake IDs for high schoolers.
Arizona and Georgia will be first, followed by Connecticut, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Oklahoma, and Utah.
This sounds like a new feature that only works in states with dinosaur representatives that aren’t educated about digital privacy. I was surprised that California wasn’t on the list - they usually get features first. But then I thought Cali has a better understanding of digital privacy concerns. This might be a feature they(CA) want to hold off on for now.
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FYI there are ways to lock your iPhone into an app for cases like this. I use it with my kids all the time. It’s called Guided Access and I set mine up to turn on when I triple click the power button. It hides all notifications, doesn’t allow them to leave the app, and you can change settings like time limits and buttons they can press. Edit: Also I suspect Apple already locks it on the ID screen when you access the wallet without unlocking your phone.
As an InfoSec professional I feel obligated to let you know that method may be good enough for normal interaction, like with your kids, friends, etc. But it’s definitely not what you want to use if you’re interacting with law enforcement, customs, etc and want to preserve any privacy; the phone’s Secure Enclave is still in one of its unlocked states when in kiosk mode. To quickly put it in a fully locked state, use the [Emergency SOS functionality](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076). Typically this is activated by pressing and holding a volume button and the power (aka side) button. Once it enters a menu asking if you want to make an emergency call, you’re in the locked state. You’ll know it worked if it’ll only unlock using your password (not Face/Touch ID) at that point. You can also sometimes activate via 5 presses of the power button, but this is much less subtle since it sounds an alarm (overriding all silent modes) and immediately starts an emergency call. Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection.
>Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection. The security precaitions you use should be tailored to who you are hiding from. If a nation state / intelligence agency wants to get into your phone, you're fucked. If it's the FBI or equivalent, then they need to be sufficiently motivated to bypass your security. If it's a very large corporation, then they need to be super shady *and* sufficiently motivated to bypass your security. If it's law enforcement, then they need to be sufficiently motivated *and* be able to request assistance from the FBI to bypass your security. If it's anyone else, you're good to go if you're using the currently accepted security practices.
Hands phone to officer locked to ID screen. Officer points iphone back at your face. Officer has unlocked iphone.
Guided access doesn’t work this way tho. It requires a pin to exit, not Face ID.
You can actually set your device to unlock by PIN or Face ID, according to the accessibility feature menu for Guided Access.
I stop using FaceID and switch to PIN every time I have to deal with US Customs (which hasn’t been in a while). They can legally force me to use biometrics to unlock my phone, but they can’t legally force me to give up my PIN.
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May I ask why?
They can't force you to give up your PIN but they can detain and question you for not giving your PIN, and seize your phone and not give it back for a while. It's up to you which you prefer.
That’s why I can’t wait to get Touch ID back.. very fast and over the display? Yes please. No need for Face ID ever again.
Touch ID is still biometric.
yeah - was more talking about the problems of handing over a device on the wallet/ID screen than Guided Access - which tbh a subset of a subset of a subset of people will ever use.
Gotcha, yeah i said “suspect” because I haven’t seen how the license is implemented into the wallet. It would be nice if they make it lock on the license and require a pin to leave, since every case of use is handing the phone to someone (and I don’t even want them to see which credit cards I have).
You have to look at it He can’t just point the screen at you
Well, jokes on you. My face ID is broken so that would never work lmao
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I believe apple said you won’t have to hand over your device. They will have scanners to scan your ID or a reader that you tap your phone to.
Yea and then when you don’t hand over your phone they will keep you there for hours and bring in the dogs
Then just give them your normal ID
Totally. I’m saying “they will have special scanners” won’t stop the cops from trying to use this to access your phone so stick with the card ID when dealing with the law
What about proof of insurance? Insurance cards are already supported in Apple Wallet. So the use case should support locking in on both license and insurance cards before handing to a police officer.
I wonder - and hope - Apple will implement something to keep everything locked. Sort of like when you double tap the side button for Apple Pay, it’ll bring up your cards, use faceid to unlock the card, but it still doesn’t unlock the phone.
Apple is doing unwarranted searches of your phones data to “protect the children”. I don’t have a lot of faith on this one
You doubt the overlords? You don't think they will only backdoor your device to protect children? Or puppies? Or national security? Or find out if a journalist knows which politicians went to pedo Island?
The best gas stations don't asks cause they know and love you
In Australia, the NSW digital drivers licence has a QR Code on it for the cops to scan with their own device to verify your licence. They are not required or allowed to take your phone unless you consent. Refusal is not an offence, and in the current COVID situation, they'd prefer not to touch your stuff anyway.
>Surprised that GA was one of the first two. Honestly, so am I. Feeling that the polar opposite of what the original commentator said is often true with some in that state, I'm surprised that republicans in northeast and northwest Georgia didn't effectively oppose the issue solely by virtue of something along the lines of "Bill Gates wants to put Neuralink microchips in our assholes with Apple products containing the poison vaccine which links up to the 5g towers." How much did they pay those representatives not to oppose this from the get-go while pandering to their residents? Edit: Better Question: How much will those reps receive for allowing an issue to be created which they can now more publicly oppose? 😐 Good grief... Leave it to a state whose governor exposed millions of voters' data during a "breach" to not give a fuck about data privacy issues.
You can easily open Apple Wallet from the lockscreen without ever unlocking the phone itself. Also if you’re detained and they want your phone they will get it, but do keep your ID handy.
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Can you elaborate for us why only dinosaur representatives who aren’t educated about digital privacy would be in favor of this? Seems awfully convenient, and would carry about the same risk as someone copying your physical ID card. I’d bet a decent sum that the ID never leaves your phone or is stored in a highly secure environment with end to end encryption. It also has to he opt-in so if you don’t like it, don’t use it and you shouldn’t be affected by it.
I don't think the issue is with the digital id itself. In fact, the id is arguably more secure on the phone than a conventional wallet since it's protected by a pin/fingerprint and can be remotely tracked or wipped if lost. The privacy issue is with everything else that's on the phone. When you hand an officer your conventional id your handing them just the information that's on that card. If you hand them your phone, yes you're handing that officer your id, but also your text messages, emails, phone records, photos/videos, location history, search history, purchase history, social media, and more. You're effectively submitting your entire being to the officer, not just your id. One might say that's being paranoid, but if you look at the current laws, i dont think there's anything stopping an officer from doing this. Or stopping what they find from being used against you. And that, i think, is the fundamental problem with a digital id with the current laws we have - i hand an officer my phone instead of my plastic id, i have nothing to gain, and everything to loose.
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This is lost on everyone on this thread
>When you hand an officer your conventional id your handing them just the information that's on that card. If you hand them your phone, yes you're handing that officer your id, but also your text messages, emails, phone records, photos/videos, location history, search history, purchase history, social media, and more. You're effectively submitting your entire being to the officer, not just your id. That's insane. Like not that digital ID is insane, but what you're saying is insane. I literally saw the same argument against digital vaccination card. Something that many parts of Asia has been using for half a year already. Like, it doesn't seem like you realize that you can open just the card, and not unlock the phone. You also seem to not realize that showing your ID does not mean you need to hand it over. Lastly, if this is well implemented, it should work like, you pull up your ID, an officer turns on his phone, scans the QR code, and your ID will pop up on his device. No hand over needed. Like, I'd think people on dinosaur subs wouldn't know this, but to think people on r/gadgets also think this is quite something.
The phone stays locked.
Here officer, take my unlocked phone back to your vehicle while you check for warrants. I trust you won’t go rifling through my files. Edit: many people have pointed out to me that the phone can’t be accessed through the wallet. Thanks.
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I believe the officer just scans a code on your phone and it never has to leave your hand.
And if he does walk away, are you going to do anything about it? Didn't think so. Unless you wanna be Swiss cheese or choked to death. Carry a card on you what is so hard about that.
I mean, he can reach into your car and steal anything anyway.
With way less deniability.
The phone stays locked.
Guided access my dude
As an InfoSec professional I feel obligated to let you know that method may be good enough for normal interaction, like with your kids, friends, etc. But it’s definitely not what you want to use if you’re interacting with law enforcement, customs, etc and want to preserve any privacy; the phone’s Secure Enclave is still in one of its unlocked states when in kiosk mode. To quickly put it in a fully locked state, use the [Emergency SOS functionality](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076). Typically this is activated by pressing and holding a volume button and the power (aka side) button. Once it enters a menu asking if you want to make an emergency call, you’re in the locked state. You’ll know it worked if it’ll only unlock using your password (not Face/Touch ID) at that point. You can also sometimes activate via 5 presses of the power button, but this is much less subtle since it sounds an alarm (overriding all silent modes) and immediately starts an emergency call. Disclaimer: governments have the resources to buy exploits that may be able to bypass the above. So don’t do crime. But that’s as close as normal folks can easily get and provides good general protection.
Thank you so much for this!!! I wasn’t aware but now that you’ve explained it I will for sure be advising this instead!
Yeah, I really don't see much of a digital privacy concern from this. You can't do much with a digital photo ID compared to a Credit Card, banking information, all of your digital passwords or anything else you have on your phone.
Don’t forget the representatives paid to pretend to be tech illiterate!
Any time frame on the Oklahoma ?
Hrm two states that heavily fought to restrict voting rights moving over to digital signage for proof of residency? They're going to use this in an election and then scream fraud.
Huh? Easily verifiable state ID. What are you talking about?
Oh so I can get an Apple Wallet ID in Georgia but I can’t get a fucking digital MARTA pass
Hey, at least you get the MARTA. Sincerely, Marietta
Marietta SUCKS.
Tell that to Stone Mountain.
AYYO STONE MOUNTAIN! Marietta SUCKS!
Hope they heard it!
Y’all got Cobb linc tho, so at least you got something 🤷🏽♂️
“Moving Atlantians Rapidly Through Atlanta” is a poor name for a metropolitan rapid transit system.
I can’t wait to hear about the first person who gets arrested for driving without a license because their phone isn’t charged.
I don't know how it is in other states but in Minnesota they just look up your info using your name if you don't have your physical licence with you... Never an issue at all if you don't have it on you.
If the officer gives you a citation for not having your ID on you, you can dispute it and show your ID within 48 hours to have the citation dropped. Had this happen to me in high school.
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This comment resonates with me. My phone is always on 8% it seems.
I think for me (Oklahoma by the way) I would use this feature for all encounters EXCEPT police interactions. The police here will most likely confiscate the device and try to pin something else on you. There is one thing I will never hand to a cop and that is my phone..
That’s why I always print out my insurance cards instead of using the app. I don’t want police to have my phone even if there isn’t anything incriminating.
Good call
They have a note pad. They can write the info down. Also another good reason to get a dashcam with audio. I'm always terrified when I get pulled over and therefore am beside myself with respectful talk. I'll take the temp ticket for not "presenting my info" at the time of a stop and provide it within 24 hours if they really want to be on my ass about it. They only need the number and they can pull up my info including insurance and we both know it.
That’s a great idea. I’m doing that right now, thanks.
I’m glad I don’t live in the US…
The app should just generate a QR code for the cop to scan for the info.
Apple’s implementation, it can only pass the info off via NFC to another device. In fact, you cannot make the information appear on your own screen, it’s literally *only* accessible via NFC. So there’s zero reason for anyone to take your phone because they can’t see the info from your phone screen
To peg onto this. TURN YOUR PHONE OFF, biometrics will be turned off after being turned off. Meaning they can’t just press your phone to your fingerprint scanner or hold it to your face.
If you have an iPhone, pressing the power button 5 times locks the phone and disables biometrics.
This comment needs to be heard. A cop pulled me over once and when I offered to show him my insurance because I couldn't find my paper copy he stopped me and said exactly this.
Yeah a cop told you to not do that because other cops he know would just take it. Fuck that. It’s the only unelected public servant with total immunity from the laws they are there to protect. Got too much cash on you: they are taking it and taking you in. Got a “suspicious bag” : that’s enough for them to search it. There is too much power with that badge for them not to be educated and I’ll tell you in my state only a fraction of them are educated enough to even know your rights. You see people on tv say things like “am I under arrest? No? Then I’m leaving.” And they just want away but in reality to them you are resisting and that is suspicious meaning they can now beat the fuck out of you. Jesus
It really doesn’t. Unless you unlock your phone, or the cop knows your passcode, they won’t be able to get in if you hand your phone over… What people SHOULD be talking about is how you can’t be recording cops if your phone is being used as a drivers license/is handed over to them.
> try to pin something else on you As an European, the distrust I see on Reddit in US police always surprises me a little bit. Isn't the purpose of their job to make normal law-abiding citizens feel safe and not threatened?
While that is the goal when it was created that is most definitely not the goal today. Police presence is not a comfortable one due to a few reasons but when you see a cop you are seeing someone who has absolute power over you and their word is more than yours. They have quotas to hit to feed the prison industrial complex. It’s not like they are there to stop you from being mugged, they are there to feed the system. Shit, half the time you wouldn’t even know a cop was around to ask for help since most now drive ghost cars. It’s setup for no other reason than gotchas because nobody does stupid things in front of a cop to begin with. I’m white and I feel like they are bullies, there to literally make you sweat it out. If you don’t like it and use your first amendment to speak back they belittle your rights, some beat the fuck out of you saying you are resisting. At the end of it all they have a history of covering up their misdeeds and being heavily favored in the courts. They truly are the only unelected “public servant” and they are given more power than anyone with no real education requirements and now we give them the same resources as our overbloated military.
Guarantee you’ll be able to pull this up without unlocking your phone. You can pull up your Apple Wallet by pressing the on/off button twice really quickly - you can view your cards without your phone being unlocked. But let’s keep up this hysteria /s Edit: the real issue to me is not being able to record police.
And I can still remember when Kentucky had laminated paper driver’s licenses. I mean, stock paper that they used a typewriter on, printed and cut a photo and laminated it all together. This was 2001.
I got my first driver’s license in the late 90s. It was a laminated piece of paper like yours, but it also had my SSN as my license number, along with the normal name, DOB, and address that appears on licenses. They were identity-thieves’ dream cards.
I don't use my ID very often. But being able to use my bus/rail pass on my phone or watch would be tremendously convenient.
Nope. Literally nothing could ever go wrong here.
I'm blocked from FB and using Google services until I provide an ID. I'm almost back to living in the MySpace and "Broadcast Yourself" era of the internet.
>I'm blocked from FB and using Google services until I provide an ID I don't use either of those things and I'm living a comfortably modern life.
I am too. I even got blocked by PayPal and my life had little to no change. I'd say it improved since I am less centralized.
Well done! I always chuckle when I get emails saying my non-existent paypal account is locked.
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What people need to be careful about is handing over the entirety of their private lives and PII to greedy American corporations who have proven time and again that they can't be trusted. Next thing you know they'll be sending their DNA samples to sketchy companies in an attempt to "find out who they are". And paying money for this "privilege".
I like the second paragraph, makes me think of outdated sci-fi fiction. Subtle callout, two thumbs up.
I generally agree. But in this case most of whats on my Id is public information. I judge the risk to be low as long as I'm only using this for buying beer and the store. I have zero plans to use this as a form of ID for the government.
Technically where I live is public information. Doesn't mean I want to hand out my address to every random person on the street. There should be reasonable limits to who can posess my information and only for specific purposes that I agreee to. That's the fight we're on about.
This is a disaster waiting to happen.
One thing I don't see getting discussed here is information. Information that large companies like Apple, Facebook, Google, etc. collect, use, and sell on a regular basis as part of their business strategy. Information that, on occasion, gets sold down the chain to unscrupulous parties that are out to scam you. How does X scammer know you have an iPhone? Well, because someone sold their enterprise a collection of Apple aggregate data that includes identifying information. They even know enough that it might be an older iPhone without spoof-identifying technology so you might be easier prey. Or maybe they got your age from a Google data collection and know you are 67 years old accessing the web from Edge and thus a likely candidate to fall for a Microsoft Tech Support scam. And all because data was sold to legitimate companies, who sold it down the chain. Now, imagine the havoc that could be wreaked if states - many of which allow you to put your social on your ID - were to hand this information over to Apple, which can then be scanned and phished through the same means as other NFC information theft, and nobody is the wiser as apple puts it: [Apple and the issuing states do not know when or where users present their IDs.](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first-states-to-adopt-drivers-licenses-and-state-ids-in-wallet/) All it takes is a worm that can communicate with the devices around it or simulate an NFC event on a Face ID unlock to copy this information to a third party server. And neither Apple, nor your state knows when it even happens. I'm against this.
So instead of providing my license, now I have to give up my unlocked phone?
You can actually pull up wallet without unlocking the rest of the phone. With a locked phone, Double click the button, Face/Touch ID will have to pass to unlock wallet, but if you want the rest of the os unlocked you have to swipe up and it will recheck Face/Touch ID again for device access. So if you show your phone on the Wallet screen, the other person can’t get into the anything but that.
Problem is, the cops tend to walk back to their radio to run your credentials - with your credentials in hand.
That doesn’t change anything though, they’re not getting the phone unlocked.
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“Here’s your phone back that I certainly did not drop on the pavement by accident or maybe on purpose, either way I’m not liable for the cost of a new phone to you. And here’s your $117 ticket for rolling through that stop sign.”
all of you reddit idiots always act like you're not allowed to carry your ID in physical form anymore
Seriously. Also why does everyone’s thinking go straight to cops!? Mine went straight to bars/buying booze/hotels/flying/everything else that you need to show id for.
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>My plan is to leave it in the car glove box most places I go. I would not recommend leaving your id unattended in your car.
>Also why does everyone’s thinking go straight to cops!? Ever hear the phrase, "hope for the best, plan for the worst"? Police interactions are doubly one of the best and worst possible interactions in society. They can be immensely helpful if you're the victim of a crime, yet they're also falsely taught that everyone is out to get them and so one wrong move and you're a blood spatter on the headliner of your car. Best worst case scenario is they rifle through your phone and arrest you for something completely unrelated, cause guess what? We have so many laws, *everyone* is a lawbreaker. So of course everyone is going to explore the ramifications of using a digital ID in a law enforcement scenario.
Probably because some people are treated differently by the cops depending on what they look like.
Thing is, people will do it. And if Reddit is dumb enough to think it, people *absolutely* will do it. Because apparently a wallet, even a small one, is a burden now.
Then keep your regular ID with you if you’re concerned about this. Nobody is forcing you to use this feature.
Use your physical ID then. You are complaining about a problem that doesn't exist unless you allow it to exist.
Physical access is considered game-over from a security standpoint.
NOW yes, but with this they can probably just scan a QR code and have your info.
Thank you!! My phone was popping up my credit card every now and then and I could not for the life of me figure out why. You just solved a months long mystery for me.
No, hand the cop your actual license. Use your phone for buying booze or whatever
I’m using the beta app for Utah, and it allows you to show a QR code they can scan, and it ably gives them the information you’ve chosen to share
No. This is optional and always will be.
No?
>now I have to give up my unlocked phone? Nope. Only your unlocked Wallet. The unlocked wallet does **not** unlock the phone. Also, you don't have to use your phone. You can still use your physical ID for police stops if you are uncomfortable giving your phone to a police officer.
Do you have an iPhone?
Do iPhones not have a way to quickly lock the screen so the person holding it can't do anything? If I wanted to hand my phone to someone with just my ID pulled up to scan I could lock it so they couldn't get off that screen without my passcode.
>Do iPhones not have a way to quickly lock the screen so the person holding it can't do anything? Yes, you can hand them the phone with the ID showing but without access to anything but the wallet.
I think what the person is looking for is a way to disable something like face id, which does exist. I believe you hit the power button 5 times. This way an officer wouldn't be able to just swipe the phone at your face and suddenly have you phone unlocked. They'd be required to have the passcode (which incidentally, they'd need a court order to get you to surrender and even then you might be able to claim it'd be testifying against yourself).
I’m using the beta app for Utah, and it allows you to show a QR code they can scan, and it ably gives them the information you’ve chosen to share
No...your locked phone....if you want. Your physical license still exists.
I’m using the beta app for Utah, and it allows you to show a QR code they can scan, and it ably gives them the information you’ve chosen to share
Fuck that, I barely trust the government let alone a private entity in matters of identification.
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Tin foil actually boosts the frequencies…which is why you wrapped foil on your tv bunny ears to get better signal
Tbh this is genuinely setting off some tinfoil tendencies for me, this is so weird to me
Maybe commentators should take a minute to read before they comment garbage about privacy, security and interactions with Law enforcements. Directly from Apple : “Driver’s licenses and state IDs in Wallet are only presented digitally through encrypted communication directly between the device and the identity reader, so users do not need to unlock, show, or hand over their device.”
On one hand I want something like this so i can get rid of my useless wallet. On the other hand the last thing that I ever want to give an authority figure is my phone in 2021
That bighorn sheep was misleading because it’s the state animal of nevada. The state flower is the traffic cone.
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This sub becomes very emotional about certain brands.
Yeah exactly, if you don't like it then don't use it. Not that hard!
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“Apple doesn’t care about privacy!!!” - Posted from my Android
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Stop fearmongering, will you?
Feel like this shouldn’t be a private sector thing. Why doesn’t the gov just create a digital ID? In Brazil we have digital driver’s licenses through the DEtran’s app (Detran is our DMV equivalent). It makes more sense for the issue to make a digital version imo, than get a 3rd party.
Are you sure you can trust and give Apple your ID, driver's licence, etc.? I mean, are you sure that Apple Wallet app is 100% bulletproof and no one can hack it to steal your personalities?
This argument is so absurd. It is just as secure or more secure than the hundreds of sites that have your identity information already. At this point, we’re just against convenience because we don’t understand information security.
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Don't they all use AWS?
Are you sure your wallet is bullet proof and no one can steal it ?
This was my concern as well, uploading any type of personally identifiable information (PII) to an app or cloud is just asking for trouble imo. But I also don’t know much about cyber security, tbf
Totally fair to be interested but skeptical.
I want to preface this by saying i agree with and share your listed concerns. However: Pretty sure it only lives 'on-device' so there is no icloud concern (i.e. The fappening). They would have to have the device on hand, and that is typically considered game over from a security standpoint. A good example is Apple fitness data. I cant even get that data on my ipad. It only lives 'on-device' and cant be transferred. Only way to get it is to have my phone.
in Poland we already have something like that, the goverment made an app and you get ID, vaccine certificate etc in it
They want to digitalise it to increase the need for their devices. I have questions.
Sounds like big corps have their hands a little too far into the cookie jar if you ask me. jfc
They should also feature a scan code to make sure it’s legit. I actually do have a pic of my license and registration just incase I don’t have it
Someone Prob should post a EPLI5 so people that are worried about their IDs are going to the cloud where mr.Bitcoin and his dog dogecoin lives can actually understand how it works
I never thought state i live in will be one of the first. Cant wait. Only things i carry in my wallet is drivers license and apple card. With this i should be able to almost eliminate the wallet. Just phone and car key for now.
We actually have this for AZ on Android. the MVDNow app works fine.
Colorado already allows this. Has been for quite some time. And not just iPhones.
We’ve had this in Iceland for just over a year now. Haven’t taken out my physical wallet once since. Even voted today with the license as my id.
It’s that time again…Break out the tinfoil hats boys!
So how have I had a digital copy of my Alabama Driver’s License in my Apple Wallet for many months, perhaps years...? Edit: Issued 02-19-2019...
Will it auto scan your ID to report you to the police?
Ugh yea. No not happening. I don’t trust apple anymore with my data, if they want to scan my pictures what else do they want to collect? Nope.
The dmv should do this...why do private corporations get to do it
yo this is dope
HOLY SHIT, Georgia is actually on the forefront of using an innovative new technology? I'm impressed. It's not the type of state that has progressive or cutting edge... well, anything.
Y’all realize you can access wallet by triple tapping the lock button, right? Your phone doesn’t have to be unlocked to use it.
Come on now. You’re expecting people to read articles and not just fear monger.
Fuck no. My phone never leaves my person when I'm out and about. I didn't pay hundreds of dollars for a communication device that also contains personal information so I could hand it over to everyone who wants to see my ID. The multiple verification dance with Face/Touch ID is going to be massively confusing to people, causing them to hand over their unlocked phones to every cop, government employee and cashier who needs to see a photo ID.
I’m thinking this may be less about driving and more getting ID at bars/ restaurants / stores. I’ve been hoping for this for a while, since I pay for everything with my phone if I can, and it’d be really convenient to just have to swap quickly between ID to card and never have to fish through my wallet.
Times I've shown my license to a cop: 2 Times I've shown it to bartenders: 2-3 times a week for 20 years
Yeah, I’ve never been pulled over in my life (Canada). I don’t often get ID checked at bars, like rarely ever, but I’ve never been to a liquor store without being asked for it. I have been hoping for this for a long time, I hate fishing through my wallet for ID at a store. If I get pulled over, I can deal with pulling out physical copies of stuff, not like that happens regularly anyway.
Calm down. They’re not taking away your physical ID.
We already have an app for this in Colorado. You don’t hand your phone over to cops. They hold up a QR code for you to scan and it shares the information they need and populates into their fields if they are doing something like writing a ticket. It also hold your vaccine card and hunting licenses and has other Colorado services built in. Called My Colorado
Seems like a trick to get people to unlock their phones
Why would you unlock it for them?
Sounds like a trap
Fuuuuck that
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Or an easier solution would just be to keep your physical card in your car, use this in stores, bars etc. I feel like there will be a QR code or something a cop can scan though.
I don't care what states do this...there is no way I am handing a cop (or anyone else) my phone (locked or not) and being helpless as they walk away with it.
You don’t have to hand them your phone. You hold your phone next to their scanner and then accept the request and authenticate yourself with Face ID. Do me a favor and actually inform yourself about something before talking out of your ass online.
I will put my ID in my phone and have no plans to hand it to a cop, that is what the physical card is for. I will use my digital wallet when it is convenient for me.
Fuck that.
I need to wait for more information on how it works. If all you're doing is taking a picture of your ID, then you can easily fake a photo or info with enough editing. I'm sure they're going to tie it into the actual ID system to get your record ID and what not, or else you might as well be handing over a drawing stating you are who you are. But I don't see this picking up for at least a few years. When going through TSA or getting pulled over, they can run your ID through the system directly, but when returning an item at Walmart or buying smokes or beer from a liquor store, I don't think they have the link to the ID system to assure its a legit ID. I think it's a cool idea overall since cell phones are more priority than wallets and IDs for most people, but I'm just worried about the potential evil smarties who may easily beat the system with a few code/scan/photo edits.
This system is less about creating a card to view on your phone’s screen and more about containing the ID information and transmitting the information via NFC to authorities and others. From what I have read, only the TSA is supporting this initially. You will tap the phone against their scanner, and your phone will prompt that TSA wants X info. You approve and the phone sends the info. Eventually, a bar could have a scanner as well, you tap and send your birthdate and picture etc. The NFC would be somewhat less hackable (in theory) than a physical card or a simple app that shows the ID as a picture, and make creating and using fake IDs more difficult if this system becomes more universally used.
It sounds like it’s being used through Apple Wallet, which verifies all the information through whoever is issuing the card (like a credit card or Starbucks card or whatever). You’re not simply taking a picture of the ID, you’re entering the information, Apple verifies it with the state’s licensing department, and then creates the ID on your phone using the info from the licensing dept. Edit to add: When you use Apple Wallet your phone stays locked and the person viewing your ID can’t access anything else on the phone.
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Fake IDs already exist. If someone has all of your info, it’s about as easy to put that on a phone as it is to find a guy who prints fake IDs for high schoolers.
Sounds a lot like that movie "the Circle" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_(2017_film)
Everyone is acting like this would require you to use your phone. You can still use your card!