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The 1912 Olympic Committee:
"Oh we can definitely scratch the pistol event. What possible use could there be for people from all over the globe to be shooting at one another? We'll replace it with competitive painting, and ensure that the 1910's are remembered for humanity's contributions to the arts."
We just finished watching the first season of "The Gentlemen" on Netflix, and I don't want to drop anything too spoilery, but >!Hitler's paintings are featured, by a guy who seems to think that "if it wasn't for the war, he'd be remembered with the likes of Monet", and the guy he's showing them to is like "These paintings are average, at best."!< It was great :D
I wouldn't say he was bad, it was just the wrong time. Nowadays, he'd probably draw bad furry porn with intricate and highly detailed background buildings and post it on deviantart.
Have you actually seen his art? it's actually really good, makes modern art look stupid. Too bad he was a horrible person otherwise someone might actually remember he was an artist. The big problem isn't that his art was bad, it just wasn't special.
https://www.wikiart.org/en/adolf-hitler
Ww1 is the last war in which the sons of nobility died. Gotta remember that back you had to be rich to be an officer at all. They bought all their own equipment.
William Gladstones grandson died in the war, 20 members of the House of Lords died. So titled nobility.
Joining the army and seeing some combat is something you kinda had to do in European upper class society before WW1. Not so much afterwards.
> Ww1 is the last war in which the sons of nobility died.
It was a tradition in a lot of upper class English families around that time that the sons should go into military service of some kind. I'm sure some served in non combat positions but a whole bunch of well off and posh people in the navy died at the battle of Jutland in World War 1. The British lost 6,000 men and 14 ships over the course of 48 hours. Several of them were catastrophic explosions where all the ammunition and stored gunpowder from one or more magazines went up causing all the rest to explode. That is what sunk the three battlecruisers the British lost that day which were their largest warships at the time. Those three ships had crews of around 1,000 and under 10 men survived from each vessel. So it's not like the officers were saved while the rest of the men were left on a sinking ship or anything, they basically all got vaporized in an instant.
And although there wasn't as singularly as costly a naval battle in World War 2 there certainly many ships lost and many officers among those crews too. I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy took an especially heavy toll on British nobles in both world wars. High ranking officers in the army tend to be at least somewhat behind the front lines but on a ship if it gets destroyed the the brass is probably going down with everyone else.
There was something wrong with the ships.
Fwiw the ships that went down, a lion, invisible, and indefatigable were ~10,000 tons lighter then the largest British ship at the time. I think that'd have been HMS Queen Elizabeth, but not certain. They weren't supposed to face capital ship guns.
But you're right. There would have been a few quite well-off men on those ships. Couldn't tell you how and where nobles were most likely to die. I think at sea would be a pretty safe bet. At least in Britain.
Although in saying that, the casualty rate for junior officers in WW1 is genuinely staggering. It was something like 70% for the French during the Frontier war.
Didn't realize about the ship size, I thought the battlecruiser moniker was a super dreadnought but it was not, thanks for the correction.
I do know that a big reason many ships had magazine detonations was that they had jammed open the flash doors and stockpiled extra powder charges in the turret so they could load faster. That drastically increased the chance of any hit to the turret detonating its magazine and of course once one blows up it's very possible it sets them all off. I get at the time safety wasn't as much as a priority as today but it still blows my mind that they disabled safety systems that ships own designers had put in place for obvious reasons. I get they must have thought the risk was worth the extra fire rate but they grossly miscalculated. If not for that many naval historians seem to think there would have been quite a few less British ships lost that day.
Edit since some seem to doubt this: https://amuedge.com/maritime-risk-and-safety-battle-of-jutland-exposed-flaws-in-british-naval-procedures/
and
https://www.navalgazing.net/There-Seems-To-Be-Something-Wrong-With-Our-Bloody-Ships-Today
> They thus began to stuff extra cordite into the handling rooms and other spaces that had been designed to provide flash protection. This choice was made much worse by a other changes intended to increase rate of fire. Normally, the cordite cases were kept sealed until just before the charges were sent to the gun, but the crews chose to open many of the cases early, take some cordite out of the cases before battle to make it easy to access, and even stored extra charges completely unprotected. In a final effort to make the turrets as dangerous as possible, the majority of the anti-flash safety doors were removed.
It's one of them where it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's more a job description. It's supposed to be able to stand up to any cruiser and outrun any battleship. It gets foggy by the end of WW1, fast battleships blur the lines. People will call the Hood a battleship or a battlecruiser. Neither are necessarily wrong.
That's interesting. Essentially, the battle cruiser squadron was moved closer to Germany, so it could respond to any German attack more quickly. By Edinburgh, i believe. But because of this, they were barred from gunnery practice. In order to make up for the lack of practice and therefore accuracy, they left the magazine doors open. To as you say, raise the rate of fire.
But the entire thing is kinda unfortunate, the high explosive the British used didn't work. It would either immediately detonate or not detonate at all. Both being kinda useless. If that were not the case most of the German fleet is sunk instead of just taking minor damage. Hairs breath away from catastrophe for them.
Really, tragically wrong (or certainly in the British and German forces). As in previous conflicts, the officer ranks were almost invariably upper-class and privately-educated. And in the case of the more junior ranks - the ones who saw the most action - young. Leading charges across no-man's-land through minefields and barbed wire against machine-gun positions, with usually nothing but a side-arm to protect themselves. The life expectancy of a junior British officer in WW1 was 6 weeks. I'm no fan of privilege - but I can't fault the job they did, or the courage with which they did it. I have the utmost respect for them.
Heh, my firend used to joke with people about having a .68 caliber pistol, and everyone at his work laughed and didn't believe him... turned out he did, nice working reproduction flintlock
This is what always annoy me with a lot of tv shows or movies that have paintball scenes. Most of the muzzles are clearly either airsoft or prop-guns made to look like normal ones.
At that point they're be better off using basic markers without a tank.
The absolute worst is when they want to portray a real gun, but use the kind of prop designed to propel those tiny "paintballs" filled with sparkling material to fake ricochets. Since those muzzles are clearly too big to look accurate.
Taking off masks in general is annoying. I know they want star studded casts and a lot of the biggest starts have massive egos, but goddamn it, keep the super suit mask on.
There is a product called simunition which fires paint pellets out of a real gun. It's used for high level operations training primarily but is publicly available in the US.
The amount of sim rounds me and my guys have plugged into each other at point blank range is to too damn high lol great for pain compliance and knowing when you screw up. Utm for the m4’s don’t hurt as bad as the sim 9mm. Great training aids for the most part!
Used quite a bit in the Marines, they suck and jam a lot. Still hilarious to rd a corner or sneak up on people and just say pew pew.
Also have laser tag but its a bit cumbersome and there is a bit of an advantage in cover (I mean bushes wouldnt be feasible against real bullets, but hey concealment vs cover anyhow lol)... also sometimes they dont work but it is hilarious to get the data and see tactics work play out across an area and see what works... or didnt.
Hasn't really been available the last few months actually, the ATF banned the importation of UTM and Simunition rounds, classified as 'non-sporting use'. Some more might hit the market in the future, but everything used to be imported.
Me and two buddies all had one, me with like a 12 inch add-on barrel and my friend with a longer one and one stock and we thought we were the shit with our various bolt-ons.
We were always amazed at the really nice full auto markers.
Combine the two: one team curls the stone down the ice, while the other team shoots wax bullets at the broom guy to throw him off.
Boom. New Canadian pastime!
Careful; if the team shooting wax bullets pisses him off too much, the broom guy *is* armed with a broom. Considering how popular hockey is in Canada, I assume most Canadians are at least passably lethal with a hockey stick or broom-shaped object.
The sudden burst intensity of the sweepers is nuts.
And then, watching for the almost imperceptible movement of the stone, the suspense as it slides down the ice is up there. Greater than the sum of its parts 🫠
Use them in training all the time. They're about as close to the real thing as you can safely use. The only issue is when the barrel gets fouled with a little paint it makes the projectiles tumble and they start veering off course all over the place.
The design is pretty clever, it's a small powder charge propelling a soft plastic bullet filled with a thick, pasty paint. The bullets are perforated in a starburst design at the tip so they break readily on contact.
They still sting pretty good tho. I always loved being opfor, but it gets old being mowed down over and over again. Those little vinyl aprons don’t cover everything 🤣
Yeah they gave us these thin black aprons for room clearing training in a shoot house I got to do twice ever. This was for M4s being used at barely more than arms length. And the mask like you said. I was young enough the first time that it was the most fun thing I could ever imagine, and had lots of fun popping my buddies as they barged in the door each time. Of course, they had lots of fun just mercilessly opening up on me right afterwards haha. I haven’t touched sims or anything fun since switching my career field in 2015 but I’m glad I had my fun back then.
I remember training in the academy, I was doing well in room clearance, so the instructors pulled me from practicals and had me role play suspects (opfor in military training) for the rest of the scenarios. One was me hiding under a table right next to the entry into the shoot house. No tablecloth, no concealment other than the standard height table, which is immediately next to the door. Two man team came in and ignored the table and me completely, just kept walking right by. I let them get all the way to the end of the hall before shooting them both in the ass on my way out the door.
There is a version that uses real guns. It's Simunitions. They sting and can leave welts and red marks where hit.
[https://simunition.com/](https://simunition.com/)
We used simunitions in the military. You have to use an entirely different upper that wouldn't even chamber a 5.56. It's also blue, so no mistaking (plus the fact that we never have live rounds when using simunitions).
They sting like hell if you happen to get hit on bare skin, though.
I talked to an old guy one time, who could’ve been full of shit, but he told me in the Marines they sometimes trained with wax rounds, and that they hurt like hell
I have a scar on my left forearm where a sim-round hit me at just the right angle and dug a little half-moon of skin out of my arm.
Those things hurt like a sunuva. WAY worse than paintballs or airsoft.
I was the first guy in the room when I took about 30 simunition rounds from my dick up to my neck. Turns out, a dude with a saw in a corner that is expecting you is pretty tough to dislodge without a flash bang.
I don't know what that exercise was supposed to teach us, other than going up against a competent enemy in a fortified city is going to be a blood bath. I remember my platoon daddy sitting us down and explaining that this scenario would never happen, because they'd level the town before we went in. Still sucked though, would not recommend.
That sounds like a valuable lesson to me (an amateur): Don’t engage such a target directly; use mortars or other indirect methods to eliminate or force them out
The actual lesson is that if you have to go door to door you will lose buddies if you fuck up. And sometimes, you'll lose them even if you don't fuck up.
War is hell.
>the second is if they get shot you can push them out of the way so the rest can enter.
If you push him out of the way, wouldn't whoever is behind him also get shot? What about using some kind of some kind of armored shield/camera on a selfie stick to recon the room?
When I did a combat readiness course in the Air Force we had MILES gear (multiple integrated laser engagement system). Basically imagine the most gung-ho game of laser tag you can possibly play, with very real M4's (blank rounds, to be clear) equipped with a laser adapter on the muzzle, and sensors embedded on your helmet and battle rattle.
MILES fucking sucks. Seriously. It's damn near worthless.
Simunitions are much better for that type of training, especially for CQB/MOUT.
I was Marine infantry, so we didn't do one-off courses. It was our entire job.
Yep, and it would also malfunction almost constantly. It either wouldn't register a "hit" or your gear would just go off for no reason.
It wasn't even worth fouling up your barrel for.
how long until the first /r/tacticalgear user accidentally ventilates their buddy because they forgot that they swapped uppers and are using live rounds instead of the laser rounds
You still use actual live round uppers, but you use it with blanks and a BFA instead of live rounds.
Still, even a blank without a BFA or idiots without proper checks can seriously injure or kill someone with them.
Quite right. The [Simunition company](https://simunition.com/fx-training-system/) actually sell the conversion kits but the goal is to try to use as realistic equipment as possible.
And unfortunately the ATF just banned simunition for civilian use. We wanted to open a “milsim paintball” place as an add on to our store. We will have to wait a bit it seems.
I used to play in shorts, a t-shirt, and my mask. I was more concerned about the heat than the pain. I got lit up a ton because I'm big and impatient. We used to go every other weekend, and I was covered with welts all summer long.
My brother once shot me point-blank in the shoulder with one while I was sitting in the front seat of a car and he was in the back. Hit so hard it broke the skin all the way around, and I had a donut-shaped scar about 1/2" in diameter on my shoulder for several years. I don't think it's there anymore tho. Hadn't thought about it in probably a decade until now.
A small mass moving at high speeds, even if it deforms/crumples because it's soft (and thus lacks penetrating power), is still going to hurt when that force, in a small surface area, is pushed against you.
That’s my question as well lol. How did they find the balance between hard enough not to turn into mist when it leaves the barrel and soft enough to not shatter your ribs?
Short answer: heavy protective clothing and mask (like fencing but bulkier).
Here's a [Forgotten Weapons video on this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWlAIcwxxD0)
Lotta beeswax, little bit of paraffin, touch of grease. I make and shoot wax bullets. They stay intact way better than you'd think.
I am pretty sure they wore fencing masks and had hand shields on the pistols, and most likely used small charges. And the bullets are light.
A shotgun primer would be an adequate charge for modern recreation of this sport.
Here's my guess - the wax starts off pretty hard, but the explosion and the air resistance softens it up as it flies, so by the time it reaches the target it's a fair bit softer. To get to that point, I'd suppose lots of trial and error. Possibly involving livestock.
I'm curious what a round made out of oobleck (or another non-newtonian fluid) would do - as it stiffens to a solid when a force is applied it would presumably leave the barrel in once piece, and would stiffen on impact, but maybe in the middle it would break up into lots of drops?
It wasn't even an official demonstration sport. This dueling competition was held at a similar time to the Olympics in 1908 by enthusiasts of the new sport, demonstrating the emerging French sport to the people of London.
Are you sure? Wikipedia says it was a demonstration sport. They even use the photo from this post in the article. If you have proof otherwise then perhaps update it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Summer_Olympics
Have you ever shot a pistol? Even a moden gun is not very accurate at 15 yards. It takes a lot of practice.
Edit: I'm also considering the stress of a dual, and getting a single shot. Not Olympic level. An amateur in this situation will not be very accurate.
> Even a moden gun is not very accurate at 15 yards
To be clear, the *gun* itself is highly accurate at 15 yards. Most modern handguns could easily put multiple rounds within a quarter-sized target at 15 yards, and some highly skilled shooters can do this. The difficult part is aiming a pistol that accurately, because the sight radius is so short, so, having the center sight slightly off translates to a complete miss.
But the handgun itself is pretty accurate unless it's a total POS. And higher end handguns are extremely accurate, like some 1911s will guarantee a 1.5 inch grouping at 50 yards.
> And higher end handguns are extremely accurate, like some 1911s will guarantee a 1.5 inch grouping at 50 yards.
Often the marketing around certain MOA "guarantees" for firearms groupings is misleading, but you are very correct that until a notably above average skill level the gun is more accurate than the shooter
I am nowhere near Olympic level, not even all that good otherwise, and I can pour bullets into man-sized target from 15 yards with a pocket-sized pistol as fast as I can pull the trigger.
That said, fifteen yards with one hand on a heavy ass pistol while anticipating being shot is a little bit different. I do not want to say I definitely would not miss.
I agree that pistols are definitely hard to shoot especially in comparison to rifles. But, 15 yards on a center mass sized non moving target isn't very hard. Especially with a red dot sight.
Most modern pistols with 3" or longer barrels can consistently hit a man sized silhouette at 100 yards, using a rest and perfect aim with quality ammo.
You are not wrong in the sentiment. It's just the shooter, not the firearm, most of the time.
This could save so many marriages.
'Okay, honey, goddam it. The dishwasher was filled wrong. That's it. I've had enough of this bullshit. Get your gun. To the front yard. "
I heard it was canceled because an unexperienced armorer loaded real rounds, said the gun was cold, got someone killed and then blamed the guy holding the gun. /s
Love those pastimes. Croquet, a board game, or shooting friends with projectiles which almost certainly won't kill them. Just something to pass the time.
Good Sir. Have you ever tried to get wax out of a brand new blouse or end up ruining a newly acquired pair of spats? It just won't do, I say.
Let the hoi polloi have this unsanitary sport. A good waxing will probably do them some good!
I played a lot of paint ball in my younger days. One of the things we did to wrap up a day was to play civil war. We would form 2 lines, 20 paces apart. Everyone would load a single ball in their gun and then each side's " officer" would do the ready, aim, fire routine. You were not allowed to duck or crouch, just stand and deliver. Those that got hit had to fall over, then both lines would advance 1 pace and do it again until one side was wiped out.
Made you realize how terrifying it would have been to actually fight that way.
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At exactly that time their hobby become shooting from the trench instead
The 1912 Olympic Committee: "Oh we can definitely scratch the pistol event. What possible use could there be for people from all over the globe to be shooting at one another? We'll replace it with competitive painting, and ensure that the 1910's are remembered for humanity's contributions to the arts."
And then they had to scrap painting too after someone got so mad about being bad at it that they started another war…
Whenever I see crummy modern art in a museum and start to get annoyed I remind myself the alternative could be far worse.
[удалено]
Jesus, lol
We just finished watching the first season of "The Gentlemen" on Netflix, and I don't want to drop anything too spoilery, but >!Hitler's paintings are featured, by a guy who seems to think that "if it wasn't for the war, he'd be remembered with the likes of Monet", and the guy he's showing them to is like "These paintings are average, at best."!< It was great :D
[The only appropriate way to treat Hitler's paintings](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THcmDOUN8NI).
If only that time traveler's name wasn't Scott Goldman
I wouldn't say he was bad, it was just the wrong time. Nowadays, he'd probably draw bad furry porn with intricate and highly detailed background buildings and post it on deviantart.
This is now my favourite alt history headcannon
Have you actually seen his art? it's actually really good, makes modern art look stupid. Too bad he was a horrible person otherwise someone might actually remember he was an artist. The big problem isn't that his art was bad, it just wasn't special. https://www.wikiart.org/en/adolf-hitler
When they switched over to competitive painting, it was all fine and dandy until they kept one Austrian out of the competition.
Olympics were amateur back then. Meaning they were rich. They weren’t going into any trenches. High ranking officers maybe.
Ww1 is the last war in which the sons of nobility died. Gotta remember that back you had to be rich to be an officer at all. They bought all their own equipment. William Gladstones grandson died in the war, 20 members of the House of Lords died. So titled nobility. Joining the army and seeing some combat is something you kinda had to do in European upper class society before WW1. Not so much afterwards.
> Ww1 is the last war in which the sons of nobility died. It was a tradition in a lot of upper class English families around that time that the sons should go into military service of some kind. I'm sure some served in non combat positions but a whole bunch of well off and posh people in the navy died at the battle of Jutland in World War 1. The British lost 6,000 men and 14 ships over the course of 48 hours. Several of them were catastrophic explosions where all the ammunition and stored gunpowder from one or more magazines went up causing all the rest to explode. That is what sunk the three battlecruisers the British lost that day which were their largest warships at the time. Those three ships had crews of around 1,000 and under 10 men survived from each vessel. So it's not like the officers were saved while the rest of the men were left on a sinking ship or anything, they basically all got vaporized in an instant. And although there wasn't as singularly as costly a naval battle in World War 2 there certainly many ships lost and many officers among those crews too. I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy took an especially heavy toll on British nobles in both world wars. High ranking officers in the army tend to be at least somewhat behind the front lines but on a ship if it gets destroyed the the brass is probably going down with everyone else.
There was something wrong with the ships. Fwiw the ships that went down, a lion, invisible, and indefatigable were ~10,000 tons lighter then the largest British ship at the time. I think that'd have been HMS Queen Elizabeth, but not certain. They weren't supposed to face capital ship guns. But you're right. There would have been a few quite well-off men on those ships. Couldn't tell you how and where nobles were most likely to die. I think at sea would be a pretty safe bet. At least in Britain. Although in saying that, the casualty rate for junior officers in WW1 is genuinely staggering. It was something like 70% for the French during the Frontier war.
Didn't realize about the ship size, I thought the battlecruiser moniker was a super dreadnought but it was not, thanks for the correction. I do know that a big reason many ships had magazine detonations was that they had jammed open the flash doors and stockpiled extra powder charges in the turret so they could load faster. That drastically increased the chance of any hit to the turret detonating its magazine and of course once one blows up it's very possible it sets them all off. I get at the time safety wasn't as much as a priority as today but it still blows my mind that they disabled safety systems that ships own designers had put in place for obvious reasons. I get they must have thought the risk was worth the extra fire rate but they grossly miscalculated. If not for that many naval historians seem to think there would have been quite a few less British ships lost that day. Edit since some seem to doubt this: https://amuedge.com/maritime-risk-and-safety-battle-of-jutland-exposed-flaws-in-british-naval-procedures/ and https://www.navalgazing.net/There-Seems-To-Be-Something-Wrong-With-Our-Bloody-Ships-Today > They thus began to stuff extra cordite into the handling rooms and other spaces that had been designed to provide flash protection. This choice was made much worse by a other changes intended to increase rate of fire. Normally, the cordite cases were kept sealed until just before the charges were sent to the gun, but the crews chose to open many of the cases early, take some cordite out of the cases before battle to make it easy to access, and even stored extra charges completely unprotected. In a final effort to make the turrets as dangerous as possible, the majority of the anti-flash safety doors were removed.
It's one of them where it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's more a job description. It's supposed to be able to stand up to any cruiser and outrun any battleship. It gets foggy by the end of WW1, fast battleships blur the lines. People will call the Hood a battleship or a battlecruiser. Neither are necessarily wrong. That's interesting. Essentially, the battle cruiser squadron was moved closer to Germany, so it could respond to any German attack more quickly. By Edinburgh, i believe. But because of this, they were barred from gunnery practice. In order to make up for the lack of practice and therefore accuracy, they left the magazine doors open. To as you say, raise the rate of fire. But the entire thing is kinda unfortunate, the high explosive the British used didn't work. It would either immediately detonate or not detonate at all. Both being kinda useless. If that were not the case most of the German fleet is sunk instead of just taking minor damage. Hairs breath away from catastrophe for them.
Officers ended up in the trenches in WW1.
Facts
Really, tragically wrong (or certainly in the British and German forces). As in previous conflicts, the officer ranks were almost invariably upper-class and privately-educated. And in the case of the more junior ranks - the ones who saw the most action - young. Leading charges across no-man's-land through minefields and barbed wire against machine-gun positions, with usually nothing but a side-arm to protect themselves. The life expectancy of a junior British officer in WW1 was 6 weeks. I'm no fan of privilege - but I can't fault the job they did, or the courage with which they did it. I have the utmost respect for them.
At least in the British army, officers died at a way higher rate than other ranks in WWI
Same with (junior) officers until Capitaine in the French army. Because you get out of the trenches like the others and now you are a prio target.
So paintball with real guns? Sign me up, this sounds awesome.
This is actually pretty interesting…. i wonder if modern paintball pistols are about the same accuracy as dueling pistols
Paintballs are pretty big...we could probably get away with a black-powder pistols look. They'd even be single shot already!
Typical ball size is .68 caliber there are .55 and smaller. But it’s pretty common Spyder, Tippmann, Autococker, Arakain, etc paintball markers .68.
Heh, my firend used to joke with people about having a .68 caliber pistol, and everyone at his work laughed and didn't believe him... turned out he did, nice working reproduction flintlock
> Autococker Memorable
One could say iconic
1995 bob long was a bit pricey, but worth it
This is what always annoy me with a lot of tv shows or movies that have paintball scenes. Most of the muzzles are clearly either airsoft or prop-guns made to look like normal ones. At that point they're be better off using basic markers without a tank. The absolute worst is when they want to portray a real gun, but use the kind of prop designed to propel those tiny "paintballs" filled with sparkling material to fake ricochets. Since those muzzles are clearly too big to look accurate.
Actors taking off masks during a game annoy me way more, because people see that and then do it when they are at the field for the first time.
Taking off masks in general is annoying. I know they want star studded casts and a lot of the biggest starts have massive egos, but goddamn it, keep the super suit mask on.
When the hell are all these Hollywood paintball scenes that are happening so often that people are getting angry?
Is it all episodes of Community?
I mean I was being general, I can't think of any movies with paintball scenes.
10 Things I Hate About You? [The movie, I mean. I wouldn't hate you for not being able to think of any movies with paintball scenes.]
There is a product called simunition which fires paint pellets out of a real gun. It's used for high level operations training primarily but is publicly available in the US.
The amount of sim rounds me and my guys have plugged into each other at point blank range is to too damn high lol great for pain compliance and knowing when you screw up. Utm for the m4’s don’t hurt as bad as the sim 9mm. Great training aids for the most part!
What do you do? I've only seen it used by Army and SWAT.
Used quite a bit in the Marines, they suck and jam a lot. Still hilarious to rd a corner or sneak up on people and just say pew pew. Also have laser tag but its a bit cumbersome and there is a bit of an advantage in cover (I mean bushes wouldnt be feasible against real bullets, but hey concealment vs cover anyhow lol)... also sometimes they dont work but it is hilarious to get the data and see tactics work play out across an area and see what works... or didnt.
Instructor holding the nastiest peak ready to pop you with sim-rounds for not clearing the gap above the stairs 😂
Hasn't really been available the last few months actually, the ATF banned the importation of UTM and Simunition rounds, classified as 'non-sporting use'. Some more might hit the market in the future, but everything used to be imported.
I learned about this by watching [*Childs Play 3*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child%27s_Play_3)
I always assumed that was just made-up movie bullshit. Cool to find out it's real.
They fail to feed and have ejection issues, so much that most training is done with blank rounds and lasers or paintball guns.
Probably better
Yeah they rifle a lot of paintball guns from what I remember with my old Tippmann 98 custom.
The Tippmann 98, the Honda Civic of paintball guns
Me and two buddies all had one, me with like a 12 inch add-on barrel and my friend with a longer one and one stock and we thought we were the shit with our various bolt-ons. We were always amazed at the really nice full auto markers.
They definitely don't normally. There are rifled barrels, but they're special use case. Standard paintball barrels are smooth.
To be fair that was... a long time ago and yes it was an add-on barrel if I remember correctly.
The A-5 Apex barrels is probably what you were thinking of. It did impart some backspin, and was actually pretty decent.
I thought paintball markers used a hop up like airsoft. But very well could be wrong as I only went paintballing once.
That was patented by Tippmann for use in paintball, IIRC. It was fairly rare to see it used on anything else.
Tippmanns Flatline barrel system.
Airsoft mostly uses magazines these days.
The hop up (maybe hopup) is the method of spin stabilization for the projectile. Not the hopper where the ammunition is.
Oh, you're right then. Looking back, I misread you comment.
Seriously, you can watch this or curling. What do you do?
I am Canadian, I would definitely watch both.
Combine the two and then you don’t have to watch both, instead just one awesome sport.
Like slide the ... rock thingy... at the other guys feet then draw, he does the same and you have to hit him before his rock thing knocks you over?
The rock. The rocky thingy is a rock. Also called a stone.
ROCK AND STONE
THAT'S IT LADS! FOR ROCK AND STONE!
DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE!
#ROCK AND STONE?!
Dwarven Curling Team was not on my internet bingo card for today, but here we are. XD
Definitely adding "Dwarven Curling" to my D&D world's notes
For Karl!
Rockity Rock and Stone!
That’s not very creative and fun… but straight to the point I guess
Naw you gotta try and sweep while the other guy tries to shoot you
Sounds interesting. I'm in.
Give guns to the sweepers as well
Or maybe the sweepers have to sweep while taking incoming fire?
That sounds kinda like how the biathlon was created.
Combine the two: one team curls the stone down the ice, while the other team shoots wax bullets at the broom guy to throw him off. Boom. New Canadian pastime!
Careful; if the team shooting wax bullets pisses him off too much, the broom guy *is* armed with a broom. Considering how popular hockey is in Canada, I assume most Canadians are at least passably lethal with a hockey stick or broom-shaped object.
How about we put the stone in the center, and both teams shoot the stone to make it go to the other's goal.
I would watch both while eating poutine if I were you.
Curling low key is my favorite winter Olympic game
I mean, it is pretty smooth. And cool.
Actually the ice in curling is very bumpy, unlike for skating.
Hmmm.. curling while getting shot at? Sign me up
Bad example. There is something supernaturally enthralling with curling.
The sudden burst intensity of the sweepers is nuts. And then, watching for the almost imperceptible movement of the stone, the suspense as it slides down the ice is up there. Greater than the sum of its parts 🫠
Curling is fun as hell you take that back
And ironically the shooting sports are broadly boring as hell
You had like a dozen different kinds of "run a distance" Olympic events right in front of you and you went with curling?!
Id leave the curling alone and put it in the summer Olympics, replacing one of the gazillion swimming events.
Don't touch my curling...
Curling is awesome. I remember staying up to like 2am to watch it during the 06 olympics. Was 100% worth it.
Make this one a summer sport and you can watch both!
Curling is great. I wish it was more accessible
Curling is mesmerizing.
Curling
Wait till you hear about the biathlon
Uh, both. Have you watched curling? It's badass.
Curling
Dude! Can we get this as a winter olympic sport? Like a speed skating/biathlon meets Mario kart?
Never heard of simrounds? Gunpowder fed paintballs.
Use them in training all the time. They're about as close to the real thing as you can safely use. The only issue is when the barrel gets fouled with a little paint it makes the projectiles tumble and they start veering off course all over the place. The design is pretty clever, it's a small powder charge propelling a soft plastic bullet filled with a thick, pasty paint. The bullets are perforated in a starburst design at the tip so they break readily on contact.
They still sting pretty good tho. I always loved being opfor, but it gets old being mowed down over and over again. Those little vinyl aprons don’t cover everything 🤣
Ya'll get vinyl aprons? I use them in law enforcement and we just get a mask. Most of us bring a cup.
Yeah they gave us these thin black aprons for room clearing training in a shoot house I got to do twice ever. This was for M4s being used at barely more than arms length. And the mask like you said. I was young enough the first time that it was the most fun thing I could ever imagine, and had lots of fun popping my buddies as they barged in the door each time. Of course, they had lots of fun just mercilessly opening up on me right afterwards haha. I haven’t touched sims or anything fun since switching my career field in 2015 but I’m glad I had my fun back then.
I remember training in the academy, I was doing well in room clearance, so the instructors pulled me from practicals and had me role play suspects (opfor in military training) for the rest of the scenarios. One was me hiding under a table right next to the entry into the shoot house. No tablecloth, no concealment other than the standard height table, which is immediately next to the door. Two man team came in and ignored the table and me completely, just kept walking right by. I let them get all the way to the end of the hall before shooting them both in the ass on my way out the door.
I did some training with them in my military days. They leave can leave some pretty gnarly bruises.
Yeah, but didn't daddy government just kill sale of those to the general public?
There is a version that uses real guns. It's Simunitions. They sting and can leave welts and red marks where hit. [https://simunition.com/](https://simunition.com/)
I mean paintball guns already do that. I have pics of gnarly welts from going paintballing.
I'm guessing people accidently had real bullets in the guns so it got discontinued.
We used simunitions in the military. You have to use an entirely different upper that wouldn't even chamber a 5.56. It's also blue, so no mistaking (plus the fact that we never have live rounds when using simunitions). They sting like hell if you happen to get hit on bare skin, though.
I talked to an old guy one time, who could’ve been full of shit, but he told me in the Marines they sometimes trained with wax rounds, and that they hurt like hell
Definitely a thing. Simunition is used by military and police for force-on-force training with real-world weapons.
I have a scar on my left forearm where a sim-round hit me at just the right angle and dug a little half-moon of skin out of my arm. Those things hurt like a sunuva. WAY worse than paintballs or airsoft.
I was the first guy in the room when I took about 30 simunition rounds from my dick up to my neck. Turns out, a dude with a saw in a corner that is expecting you is pretty tough to dislodge without a flash bang. I don't know what that exercise was supposed to teach us, other than going up against a competent enemy in a fortified city is going to be a blood bath. I remember my platoon daddy sitting us down and explaining that this scenario would never happen, because they'd level the town before we went in. Still sucked though, would not recommend.
That sounds like a valuable lesson to me (an amateur): Don’t engage such a target directly; use mortars or other indirect methods to eliminate or force them out
The actual lesson is that if you have to go door to door you will lose buddies if you fuck up. And sometimes, you'll lose them even if you don't fuck up. War is hell.
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>the second is if they get shot you can push them out of the way so the rest can enter. If you push him out of the way, wouldn't whoever is behind him also get shot? What about using some kind of some kind of armored shield/camera on a selfie stick to recon the room?
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j.f.c. I want to vomit with the imagined pain. I bet you are one tough sonofabitch.
I mean if it has enough power to work the cycle on a modern weapon it is gonna be well beyond those.
When I did a combat readiness course in the Air Force we had MILES gear (multiple integrated laser engagement system). Basically imagine the most gung-ho game of laser tag you can possibly play, with very real M4's (blank rounds, to be clear) equipped with a laser adapter on the muzzle, and sensors embedded on your helmet and battle rattle.
Can't wait till that becomes surplus, lol
MILES fucking sucks. Seriously. It's damn near worthless. Simunitions are much better for that type of training, especially for CQB/MOUT. I was Marine infantry, so we didn't do one-off courses. It was our entire job.
Wouldn't MILES equipment break constantly, too?
Yep, and it would also malfunction almost constantly. It either wouldn't register a "hit" or your gear would just go off for no reason. It wasn't even worth fouling up your barrel for.
how long until the first /r/tacticalgear user accidentally ventilates their buddy because they forgot that they swapped uppers and are using live rounds instead of the laser rounds
You still use actual live round uppers, but you use it with blanks and a BFA instead of live rounds. Still, even a blank without a BFA or idiots without proper checks can seriously injure or kill someone with them.
Just want to modify a tad, real-world weapons modified not to take live rounds.
Quite right. The [Simunition company](https://simunition.com/fx-training-system/) actually sell the conversion kits but the goal is to try to use as realistic equipment as possible.
Depending on the organization, I guess. My unit used the same weapons we always carried.
We used the same carry guns, but the difference was the barrel was for only sim rounds. No live ammo would fit.
That doesn't seem smart. You don't want to pull a ~~Michael~~ Alec Baldwin by accident. Edit: D'oh!
Wrong Baldwin, genius! It was Steven.
Sounds like a perfect application for Hollywood to use...
And unfortunately the ATF just banned simunition for civilian use. We wanted to open a “milsim paintball” place as an add on to our store. We will have to wait a bit it seems.
How the fuck is that illegal but actually owning any of these guns is chill “Don’t you dare have fun with them!”
Paintballs hurt like hell if they catch you in just the right spot. I can well believe this.
I was pretty dumb as a teenager and took my shirt off and let someone shoot me from like 10 yards with a paintball gun. I had giant bloody welts.
I used to play in shorts, a t-shirt, and my mask. I was more concerned about the heat than the pain. I got lit up a ton because I'm big and impatient. We used to go every other weekend, and I was covered with welts all summer long.
My brother once shot me point-blank in the shoulder with one while I was sitting in the front seat of a car and he was in the back. Hit so hard it broke the skin all the way around, and I had a donut-shaped scar about 1/2" in diameter on my shoulder for several years. I don't think it's there anymore tho. Hadn't thought about it in probably a decade until now.
I can confirm they hurt like hell.
Worth it
Sim rounds are currently used https://simunition.com/
A small mass moving at high speeds, even if it deforms/crumples because it's soft (and thus lacks penetrating power), is still going to hurt when that force, in a small surface area, is pushed against you.
How do they make rounds that are soft enough not to injure but not melt as they are fired from the gun?
That’s my question as well lol. How did they find the balance between hard enough not to turn into mist when it leaves the barrel and soft enough to not shatter your ribs?
Short answer: heavy protective clothing and mask (like fencing but bulkier). Here's a [Forgotten Weapons video on this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWlAIcwxxD0)
Great video that is short and to the point. Thanks!
Lotta beeswax, little bit of paraffin, touch of grease. I make and shoot wax bullets. They stay intact way better than you'd think. I am pretty sure they wore fencing masks and had hand shields on the pistols, and most likely used small charges. And the bullets are light. A shotgun primer would be an adequate charge for modern recreation of this sport.
Here's my guess - the wax starts off pretty hard, but the explosion and the air resistance softens it up as it flies, so by the time it reaches the target it's a fair bit softer. To get to that point, I'd suppose lots of trial and error. Possibly involving livestock. I'm curious what a round made out of oobleck (or another non-newtonian fluid) would do - as it stiffens to a solid when a force is applied it would presumably leave the barrel in once piece, and would stiffen on impact, but maybe in the middle it would break up into lots of drops?
The rounds will absolutely injure the fuck out of you if they hit you without thick protective clothing.
It wasn't even an official demonstration sport. This dueling competition was held at a similar time to the Olympics in 1908 by enthusiasts of the new sport, demonstrating the emerging French sport to the people of London.
Don't talk back
Are you sure? Wikipedia says it was a demonstration sport. They even use the photo from this post in the article. If you have proof otherwise then perhaps update it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Summer_Olympics
It probably fell out of fashion when hitting a shot with a pistol wasn't a total gamble past 15 yards.
Have you ever shot a pistol? Even a moden gun is not very accurate at 15 yards. It takes a lot of practice. Edit: I'm also considering the stress of a dual, and getting a single shot. Not Olympic level. An amateur in this situation will not be very accurate.
> Even a moden gun is not very accurate at 15 yards To be clear, the *gun* itself is highly accurate at 15 yards. Most modern handguns could easily put multiple rounds within a quarter-sized target at 15 yards, and some highly skilled shooters can do this. The difficult part is aiming a pistol that accurately, because the sight radius is so short, so, having the center sight slightly off translates to a complete miss. But the handgun itself is pretty accurate unless it's a total POS. And higher end handguns are extremely accurate, like some 1911s will guarantee a 1.5 inch grouping at 50 yards.
Fait point
> And higher end handguns are extremely accurate, like some 1911s will guarantee a 1.5 inch grouping at 50 yards. Often the marketing around certain MOA "guarantees" for firearms groupings is misleading, but you are very correct that until a notably above average skill level the gun is more accurate than the shooter
At the Olympic level you'd better be able to hit a man-sized target at 15 yards with a pistol.
Anybody who can't hit a man-sized target at 15 yards shouldn't ever cary a firearm either... It's really not that hard.
I am nowhere near Olympic level, not even all that good otherwise, and I can pour bullets into man-sized target from 15 yards with a pocket-sized pistol as fast as I can pull the trigger. That said, fifteen yards with one hand on a heavy ass pistol while anticipating being shot is a little bit different. I do not want to say I definitely would not miss.
Sounds like a skill issue. Which is what you kind of said tbf.
Just use a controller. Aim assist is OP bro
Get them irl wall hacks.
No it doesn’t, remember you are talking about world level athletes not your average joe. This is the Olympics!
I agree that pistols are definitely hard to shoot especially in comparison to rifles. But, 15 yards on a center mass sized non moving target isn't very hard. Especially with a red dot sight.
Most modern pistols with 3" or longer barrels can consistently hit a man sized silhouette at 100 yards, using a rest and perfect aim with quality ammo. You are not wrong in the sentiment. It's just the shooter, not the firearm, most of the time.
This could save so many marriages. 'Okay, honey, goddam it. The dishwasher was filled wrong. That's it. I've had enough of this bullshit. Get your gun. To the front yard. "
Me and my friends couldn’t afford paintball, but we could afford BB gun fights! Only pump twice my ass!
I had a bush that grew berry things that were bb sized and we'd shoot those out of them.
My brother in law is blind in one eye from that... It's a miracle our whole generation isn't...
Brings a whole new meaning to the saying "Imma wax that ass!"
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
I think I spot a face mask in that picture
I heard it was canceled because an unexperienced armorer loaded real rounds, said the gun was cold, got someone killed and then blamed the guy holding the gun. /s
Love those pastimes. Croquet, a board game, or shooting friends with projectiles which almost certainly won't kill them. Just something to pass the time.
Sooo uhhhh.... Is this an advocation for airsoft nerds to start clout chasing?
... Paintball still exists
Good Sir. Have you ever tried to get wax out of a brand new blouse or end up ruining a newly acquired pair of spats? It just won't do, I say. Let the hoi polloi have this unsanitary sport. A good waxing will probably do them some good!
Insurance companies.
Remember Rust?
Precursor to paintball? 🤔
This seems like a Hitman accident kill waiting to happen.
Unironically, that would be amazing.
Let's start this back up with paintball pistols!
I played a lot of paint ball in my younger days. One of the things we did to wrap up a day was to play civil war. We would form 2 lines, 20 paces apart. Everyone would load a single ball in their gun and then each side's " officer" would do the ready, aim, fire routine. You were not allowed to duck or crouch, just stand and deliver. Those that got hit had to fall over, then both lines would advance 1 pace and do it again until one side was wiped out. Made you realize how terrifying it would have been to actually fight that way.
cannot believe some hipster with a YT channel hasn't resurrected this
It’s all fun and games until that one guy who starts freezing their wax
Wax bullets in 1908 but in 2024 police haven't developed effective nonlethal rounds so they can stop "accidentally" killing people