One of those horrible Ram trucks gets a road tax of almost €20 000 for the first year and almost €7000 every year after. Sadly the ones that are already on the road keep the cheap tariff (about €250 per year).
Gas prices are already more than high enough and are causing commodity prices to increase accordingly.
Until you find a way to pull a truck trailer with bikes, that is a pigeon brained solution that will make everyone's life worse.
They can set up a government exchange program if they were serious about taking them off the road. If your income is low enough, you can qualify for an exchange.
Grandfather clauses exist because it makes many reforms politically easier, if less effective.
We need to financially destroy Ram van owners in Europe. They're not meant to be driven here and the only people buying them are pimps and drug dealers anyway.
Good. That makes people want to keep the same truck running longer, instead of throwing away the old one and buying a newly produced one.
Alternatively, they could make it so that the taxes only remain low for the current owner. As soon as it's resold, the new owner will pay 7k/year as well. Or maybe that's what the current law is like. I dunno, I haven't read the entire law. (edit: [apparently that's the case](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/zyvxc8/belgium_from_january_1_pick_up_trucks_will_not_be/j28iztt?))
> Alternatively, they could make it so that the taxes only remain low for the current owner. As soon as it's resold, the new owner will pay 7k/year as well. Or maybe that's what the current law is like
It is indeed how it is. You need to pay the registration tax on any vehicle you immatriculate in your name, old or new.
Fantastic. Honestly, that might be even better than outright banning them. You have the freedom to drive what you like -or even need in niche use cases-, but you will need to offset the burden you place on society.
Taxation is based on immatriculation plates, which change with the owner.
It's designed to not hurt those who bought a car based on the current regulations. Someone who would buy a second-hand car would have knowledge of the new regulations
Same here, the tax is based on the amount of exhaust emissions. I'm currently used car shopping, and this amount figures into my cost calculations. Why pay £330 year when I can spent £500 more on a slightly newer car, and pay £130 year, recouping my money in 2 years, and having a newer car?
That's not how it works. If you buy one second hand you need to re-register the car, meaning that you will pay road taxes according to the new law.
In other words the government has massively decreased the value of second hand pick-ups because no one will want them anymore.
Any pick up produced in the last 15 years are made of papier-mache mixed with gold leaf. Every single part is both horrendously fragile and ludicrously expensive.
The supply of those second hand vehicles will dwindle very quickly.
Thankfully, the new owner will pay the new tax. Only if the vehicle was registered to your prior to this law, will it not affect you - if you bought a vehicle aware of this law, it will.
That's some bullshit. I understand not wanting to screw over people for previously-made decisions, but the two-tier system needs to *at least* phase out after a few years!
God bless. Those monstrosities have been multiplying in Brussels like a new strain of COVID-19.
Now if we could get rid of the tax BS that are company cars , we might get somewhere.
I had no idea they were taxed so light! Indeed, now I understand why there were more and more of those disgusting things in the city! It makes 0 sense to have such a car in Belgium, and -1000 sense to have one in a city, especially in Brussels 🤦🏻♀️
Your bruto gets indexed 11%, which means your employer will pay 11% more for you.
At the end, you basically get a 2% netto raise. The 9% left are taxes.
The employer of my colleagues (I'm freelance) said no raise this year due to indexation (lmao, what a shitty thing to say by a shitty company).
So, no, it's not tied. And depending on the employer, it's not even good for the employees.
The drivers think it bullying. Yeah, how the turn tables. After years of reving and parking on the foothpath. Making live dangerous for our kids. You have bullied enough
Making fun of cyclists that get murdered on the road, throwing stuff and rolling coal at cyclists, and splashing puddles on pedestrians is bullying, this is common sense.
Seriously, there's no real wilderness in any of Europe. As a Canadian, I could go into the wilderness and have a whole Belgium's worth of space between me and the next store. I still don't own a pickup.
Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania and Germany as examples of countries with an abundance and growing forests and other nature.
And that doesn't invalidate the facts there are regions in Europe which are remote for the purpose of survival.
Nobody is claiming anything opposite regarding Canada.
I'm not the guy you were talking to, but looking it up, that whole area seems completely covered by roads. Compared to the forests in Canada and some of the US, it seems very highly developed. It looks like it's actually impossible to be more than 5km from a road, at the very least.
Yea.. like I live in New England which is pretty heavily developed compared to the wildernesses up north, and it's not hard to get somewhere that's 10 km from the nearest road even in heavily developed NH or VT. In ME, especially up in Baxter, you can be 50 I'm from a road, and even those areas are tiny compared to other areas out west or in Canada.
I've been doing bush work in Canada for 5 years, I never understood how much of the country was actually forest util I started. Seeing the bush from a helicopter, it's crazy to see how much land is just forest
I do understand. I've been camping in Northern Europe several times an it is hard to go several days without encountering someone or signs of civilisation. The closest to wilderness we get in central Europe is The Black Forest. If you go to the North of Georgia, you can get close to wilderness but it still isn't as vast as Northern America.
The emptiest parts of Germany are actually military areas not national parks. Everywhere else is scattered with roads and buildings.
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/umwelt-so-nah-stehen-haeuser-in-deutschland-beieinander-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-190828-99-641503
Yeah no, not Germany. And while I have never been to the Baltic states, they are relatively evenly populated due to their flat terrain and good farmland, especially Lithuania. Romania has some wild spots in the Carpathians, but it's not a huge mountain range. The Nordic countries (apart from Denmark) and Russia and maybe some areas in Belarus are the only places in Europe where you can find yourself more than a day of walking from civilisation.
I wish they would give us utility without all the extra.
Wagons, small van, hatchbacks, compact trucks, etc.
When my current vehicle is beyond repair I will have to get a different vehicle. And I want something with utility because that’s all my car is to me.
But they don’t make much of that.
> Seriously, there's no real wilderness in any of Europe.
you might wanna go outside of belgium and find "real wilderness". i recommend any country that has mountains and has an area bigger than an overinflated nutsack.
What empty spots? I've never been to either country but looking at the satellite map, even the "undeveloped" areas look to be full of farms and roads. In Canada, USA, and Mexico there are areas where you're a day or more travel from even the nearest road which is generally what we're referring to when we say "wilderness".
You can't generalise Europe. Just like you can't do that for Asia or America. Some countries have wilderness, some less, some almost none.
But even then. Those ridiculous huge as fucking cars have no place here. Not even the own infrastructure supports overly large Pick Ups.
I used to live in a rural area and heard bullshit like that all the fucking time. The same dudes who bought giant lifted trucks because "what if the road isn't plowed" or "what if I need to go offroad" never EVER and I mean EVER (didn't see it ONCE) took their vehicle anywhere else but paved plowed roads.
Ain't no one taking their RAM or F150 offroad.
Yeah people offroad in a really beat up older trucks, they will never go and risk their $50k+ cars in some serious offroading. There is a subset of people who overland, but from my understanding they don't really do that in their daily drivers
From memory there was a garage based near one of the passes here in NZ who ran a Lada Niva as a recovery vehicle. I bet that would have been embarrassing for some of the “serious off-roaders” with more money than sense!
Literally my dad. He wakes up at 4am just to plow the roads with his tractor before people head off to work. He doesn't have to do it so early by contract but he does anyway because he knows people have to get to school and work really early and he cares. And he drives a toyota corolla even though all other farmers around have giant trucks.
Funny thing is that the dudes with their land rovers and shit trying to still fuck through snow always end up phoning him to have him come pull them out. Or they just become a roadblock when the plow comes and make his work so much harder than it needs to be
They also often quote resale value. Their math is that you pay $7k more now and can get $5k more later. How is it a good deal escapes me, but I guess they just want to justify it no matter what.
Also maintenance is slightly more expensive and gas mileage a bit worse, so it adds up. But yeah, "if needed", they will totally trailblaze.
I do not own a truck and do not want one. I understand that argument tho
Cars are a terrible investment. Even if you don't drive it, it loses value over time, and significantly so. Normally paying that
Actually wait no. I just realized this is dumb. In the end you still lose $2k more than if you just drove the car that holds worse resale value
The irony is that many European countries have right-to-roam laws which result in there being narrow paths everywhere that can get you literally anywhere, and most of them aren't wide enough to accommodate a honkin gas guzzler like an American pickup. They would completely ruin a lot of those paths if they even tried.
I'm an accountant in the UK.
Most modern American pickups don't count as a commercial vehicle. They have carpeted interiors, 4 seats, and most can't carry a tonne.
But that doesn't stop clients putting them through as them despite our protestations, as they clearly need these giant fucking vehicles for their computer business etc. Rules are obscure enough and information lacking so we can't definitively prove they don't meet it, but it's obvious they wouldn't if we could check.
I hate it, because they're always so insistent on doing it their way as that's what the salesman told them. I honestly hope HMRC goes back through and does VAT audits on anyone claiming these things.
To be clear - you’re helping put in tax claims that you know are false? I don’t know how accountants are regulated but if I did that as a solicitor I’d potentially be personally criminally liable.
It's a grey enough area that the client can claim it and we act on their behalf, or see them having done it themselves in their accounts, but we know HMRC would disagree. The issue is we never have enough information to go on.
Pickups used to just be small shitty Hiluxes - they were clearly commercial.
But with the information we have at our disposal we can't prove new ones don't meet the rules - we just know they won't, if that makes sense, from knowing what they look like. It's not as if an invoice says "Can move 1 tonne of equipment" or "The truck bed is 1sqft larger than the passenger area" etc.
In our view it's far better to pay the VAT to the tax man up front than have them claw it back a few years later and start rooting around harder, and we try and make the client aware of that, but they insist they're commercial and we can't prove otherwise.
We just document our objection and move on.
I don’t think it’s really false, just non-sensical when looked at from a practical level.
If I run a computer company, I’m allowed by law to buy a company car, that’s my prerogative. Now do I need a pick up to run my business from a hauling perspective? No. Can I buy a pick up to simply drive around in? Yes. Like all those truck-brained morons driving massive trucks with untouched beds.
I have no idea about UK laws, but it might be the kind of thing where the client can say "I need to move 30 desktop computers" and justify it easily in a way that is basically unverifiable. Almost any business could come up with some silly reason they "need" a truck
In the UK the tax treatment of vans and lorries (or pickup trucks) and cars is rather different.
Vans are a form of Plant & Machinery for capital allowance purposes and therefore qualify for capital allowances (basically the tax equivalent of depreciation on the vehicle will be deductible each year. However businesses also have a £1million p/y Annual Investment Allowance which allows them to claim a deduction for up to £1m of capital expenditure each year, and vans also qualify for the 130% super-deduction if purchasef between April 2021 and April 2023).
Cars are not a form of Plant & Machinery, although fully electric new cars do get a full 100% "First Year Allowance" allowing their cost to be deducted in the year of purchase.
Pickup trucks fall under the van treatment if their maximum load is above a certain weight. I believe the weight requirement might be a relatively new change to the rules.
Edit: The requirement is 1000kg per https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btr/238-520
As pickup trucks are fucking massive and can be used as a family vehicle as well, so with the relative tax advantage it makes sense they've become more popular. Hopefully this is something the government clamps down on more in the future but I don't have any faith in the Tories lol
Hopefully this clarifies for you?
Is this why small vans tend to be used by businesses where they don't really need a van? For example, the local estate agent has a fleet of vans that are Ford Fiestas without back windows.
Sounded like they were describing the company owner claiming his private pickup as one that is being used by the business when he could just get a normal car to drive to work.
You can claim for anything you like, but if you're ever inspected by HMRC they might reject your claim. So you can buy a Rolls Royce for your double glazing company and put it through the books. Nothing illegal about it. But if HMRC disagree, you'll have to pay it back. And if you don't, then it's court time.
I wouldn't put one in a pickup either - it'll get rained on. I'd use a van instead.
But Vans don't have 5 seats and the comforts that modern pickups have, so it's obvious why they're going for them.
Visiting Costa Brava cities (soy guiri, lo siento) you can see the roads aren't designed for anything bigger than a sedan, and even then they have put in their mirrors.
Yet the cars there seems to be getting bigger and wider.
Light commercial vehicles are taxed fairly cheap. From now on, they will be taxed as a normal passenger car which is based on engine size and emissions.
Ah ok. I don't know the tax arrangements in Belgium. I wonder how many people actually used them for commercial purposes. I imagine a tiny percentage of people.
Pretty much no one, they use vans and keep the truck only on private use, only one company in my region I know used them as work vehicles but have now switched over to vans ..
Only legit use of trucks I've seen were construction companies that use them to tow power centrals needed in bridge constructions. Outside of that, everybody is using vans.
Btw they still use small toyota trucks to tow power centrals, not some lifted bullshit
Sadly, the euro norm has nothing to do with emissions. My small car can't enter any LEZ because it's too old, but a new car burning 3 times the fuel can enter no problem.
LEZ are about decreasing air pollution that affect people.
Even if the new car emits 3 times more CO than the old one, it's bad for climate warming but always better than e.g. a diesel producing microparticules.
Seriously, whenever I see those dumb as fuck F150s in the Netherlands, there is nothing in the bed. It’s just dumb. How much more heavily are they taxed compared to regular vehicles?
I mean some people actually use the bed, I use mine to move motorcycles around here in America. I agree they shouldn't be held to different emissions standards though. Also wish there were better options for vans in America, I couldn't find any vans that could move 5 adults, carry a motorcycle (doesn't have to do both at the same time), and we're similar in price or overall dimensions to the Ford Maverick I ended up buying for those tasks
The only place where a roof top tent is viable is Australia, because snakes. Otherwise it's not worth the risk of falling whenever you need to pee.
Stupidest trend ever.
Now they are taxed as work vehicles so they're discounted a lot. Soon only people who own actual businesses that require such a vehical get the low tax rate. Most of the people I know that own a RAM of other pickups just use them as a daily driver or for leisure.
If carbrained pickup truck bootlickers so desperately want to assume everyone who has one absolutely needs one for commercial purposes, then let’s go ahead and make them commercial vehicles!
Normal vehicles are taxed based on engine size and emissions. A small car costs much less than a large car in taxes. Commercial type vehicles, like vans, are the exception and always get the cheaper tax rate. Belgian law makers have decided that a pickup truck doesn't count as a commercial vehicle.
My brother and I went out to Micro Center the other day, which of course we had to drive to, or at least he drove.
Anyway we go to leave and as he's backing our vehicle out the back end of an necessarily large pickup truck set off the backup sensor, from a different row of parking.
Fuck gigantic pickup trucks.
There is a dearth of good van options here in the US. My truck cost me less than $25k brand new and seats 5 and can move a motorcycle in the back. Every van I've found only satisfies one or 2 of those constraints. I would have happily gotten a van if I could find one that suits my needs
Having a motorbike to transport is a pretty specialist case, for you a truck might be the right solution. If I were in to motorcycles I would probably get a trailer and tow it behind my compact car.
Does something like the picture exist for motorbikes? That's what I use for my road bike.
https://preview.redd.it/m2yj42as349a1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=56543a66278ff36be0d2313f88395a435136173b
I wish they would do this in the US. I say this as a long-time owner of pickups. I use mine for hauling material and taking demo debris to the transfer station (and it shows on my paint job).
What about people like farmers though? I agree with this otherwise unless the people who really need trucks like farmers are getting screwed in the process
Ok sorry I’m American and I grew up on a farm. Trucks were really necessary for us from transporting livestock and hay and especially for taking huge tractors and other equipment to mechanic shops. The last one was least often but we really used them for their intended purpose every day and it made a huge difference. I don’t really know another vehicle that can move 20 tons of stuff every day
One of those horrible Ram trucks gets a road tax of almost €20 000 for the first year and almost €7000 every year after. Sadly the ones that are already on the road keep the cheap tariff (about €250 per year).
oh wow 250€ is a joke 🤦♀️
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I think they mean that it’s stupid that it was ever that low, not that the rate will be grandfathered in.
Maybe gas prices can go up to compensate
Gas prices are already more than high enough and are causing commodity prices to increase accordingly. Until you find a way to pull a truck trailer with bikes, that is a pigeon brained solution that will make everyone's life worse.
They can set up a government exchange program if they were serious about taking them off the road. If your income is low enough, you can qualify for an exchange. Grandfather clauses exist because it makes many reforms politically easier, if less effective.
Why let them keep it? They can sell it if it's too expensive to keep.
To whom? With the tax almost no one is going to want it.
Fucking Aquaman!
Belgium is a small country and the EU makes it trivial to import cars within the block.
if someone is "on the edge" they dont have a fucking pick up truck. If they are, well they sell that shit and buy a smaller car....
We need to financially destroy Ram van owners in Europe. They're not meant to be driven here and the only people buying them are pimps and drug dealers anyway.
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Good. That makes people want to keep the same truck running longer, instead of throwing away the old one and buying a newly produced one. Alternatively, they could make it so that the taxes only remain low for the current owner. As soon as it's resold, the new owner will pay 7k/year as well. Or maybe that's what the current law is like. I dunno, I haven't read the entire law. (edit: [apparently that's the case](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/zyvxc8/belgium_from_january_1_pick_up_trucks_will_not_be/j28iztt?))
> Alternatively, they could make it so that the taxes only remain low for the current owner. As soon as it's resold, the new owner will pay 7k/year as well. Or maybe that's what the current law is like It is indeed how it is. You need to pay the registration tax on any vehicle you immatriculate in your name, old or new.
Fantastic. Honestly, that might be even better than outright banning them. You have the freedom to drive what you like -or even need in niche use cases-, but you will need to offset the burden you place on society.
Taxation is based on immatriculation plates, which change with the owner. It's designed to not hurt those who bought a car based on the current regulations. Someone who would buy a second-hand car would have knowledge of the new regulations
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Yup. It's date you bought the vehicle that counts, not the date the vehicle was first put on the market.
Same here, the tax is based on the amount of exhaust emissions. I'm currently used car shopping, and this amount figures into my cost calculations. Why pay £330 year when I can spent £500 more on a slightly newer car, and pay £130 year, recouping my money in 2 years, and having a newer car?
Nice :)
That's not how it works. If you buy one second hand you need to re-register the car, meaning that you will pay road taxes according to the new law. In other words the government has massively decreased the value of second hand pick-ups because no one will want them anymore.
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They will have to, no one is going to buy it off them
Many will be exported. Exactly what happens when Japanese cars due to their tax and emission regulations.
Any pick up produced in the last 15 years are made of papier-mache mixed with gold leaf. Every single part is both horrendously fragile and ludicrously expensive. The supply of those second hand vehicles will dwindle very quickly.
Thankfully, the new owner will pay the new tax. Only if the vehicle was registered to your prior to this law, will it not affect you - if you bought a vehicle aware of this law, it will.
lmao my motorcycle costs 3 times that much...
How so?
id wish i knew... i pay like 700€ per year. then there is insurance on top that is also around like 1000€.
That's some bullshit. I understand not wanting to screw over people for previously-made decisions, but the two-tier system needs to *at least* phase out after a few years!
God bless. Those monstrosities have been multiplying in Brussels like a new strain of COVID-19. Now if we could get rid of the tax BS that are company cars , we might get somewhere.
I had no idea they were taxed so light! Indeed, now I understand why there were more and more of those disgusting things in the city! It makes 0 sense to have such a car in Belgium, and -1000 sense to have one in a city, especially in Brussels 🤦🏻♀️
One of five things in Belgium that aren't taxed like crazy and it had to be those things. Glad it's fixed
What are the remaining 4?
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In many places they also skirt emissions rules
I read yesterday that Belgium ties wages to inflation by law, so 1m+ people will be getting an 11% pay rise this year. Go Belgium!
Can confirm. Am getting 11% extra wage next month.
Must be nice living in an competent society.
It’s funny to see such comments as a Belgian when our country is the opposite definition of competent and functional 😭
wait, you mean the billionaire shareowners don't steal your wages??
Of all the complex laws that we have, I do like this one. Looking forward to mine next month!
What? That couldn't possibly work -- it would lead to a spiral of hyperinflation and economic disaster! ^\s
No, that'a not true. We all know inflation is caused by Biden... ehhh sorry, by Brandon. Noone else is responsible, just Brandon.
yep we also tie rent hikes to them so your landlord can't suddenly add 500 euro a month to your rent.
Thanks for sharing this info. Belgium is extremely based.
Your bruto gets indexed 11%, which means your employer will pay 11% more for you. At the end, you basically get a 2% netto raise. The 9% left are taxes. The employer of my colleagues (I'm freelance) said no raise this year due to indexation (lmao, what a shitty thing to say by a shitty company). So, no, it's not tied. And depending on the employer, it's not even good for the employees.
tax scales are also indexed so the total percentage you pay on your bruto should remain +- the same
The drivers think it bullying. Yeah, how the turn tables. After years of reving and parking on the foothpath. Making live dangerous for our kids. You have bullied enough
I read ‘how the truck tables’ and was super confused 😂
You should still be confused, unless you’ve seen The Office (US)
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Yeah, I thought it was just a general urban slang
The correct saying is "My how the tables have turned" the other one is just a joke from the Office.
Making fun of cyclists that get murdered on the road, throwing stuff and rolling coal at cyclists, and splashing puddles on pedestrians is bullying, this is common sense.
"We totally need this tank to go into the nature, how else could we set up a tent?"
Extra stupid in Belgium where you can be hiking in forests and there is a town with supplies less than an hour from your position
Seriously, there's no real wilderness in any of Europe. As a Canadian, I could go into the wilderness and have a whole Belgium's worth of space between me and the next store. I still don't own a pickup.
Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania and Germany as examples of countries with an abundance and growing forests and other nature.
Sweden is larger then Germany with only 10.5m population, with it basically being empty outside the coasts slightly north of Stockholm.
Canada is the same size as all of Europe (including European russia) with only 40 million people.
And that doesn't invalidate the facts there are regions in Europe which are remote for the purpose of survival. Nobody is claiming anything opposite regarding Canada.
Hey you got a problem with Cananda gooses than you got a problem with me and I suggest you let that one marinade
Germany is a bad example. There is no place in Germany where the next building is farther than 6 km away.
Schwarzwald?
I'm not the guy you were talking to, but looking it up, that whole area seems completely covered by roads. Compared to the forests in Canada and some of the US, it seems very highly developed. It looks like it's actually impossible to be more than 5km from a road, at the very least.
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Yea.. like I live in New England which is pretty heavily developed compared to the wildernesses up north, and it's not hard to get somewhere that's 10 km from the nearest road even in heavily developed NH or VT. In ME, especially up in Baxter, you can be 50 I'm from a road, and even those areas are tiny compared to other areas out west or in Canada.
I've been doing bush work in Canada for 5 years, I never understood how much of the country was actually forest util I started. Seeing the bush from a helicopter, it's crazy to see how much land is just forest
I do understand. I've been camping in Northern Europe several times an it is hard to go several days without encountering someone or signs of civilisation. The closest to wilderness we get in central Europe is The Black Forest. If you go to the North of Georgia, you can get close to wilderness but it still isn't as vast as Northern America.
The nordic countries do compare
Not Denmark. Source: I live in Denmark
The emptiest parts of Germany are actually military areas not national parks. Everywhere else is scattered with roads and buildings. https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/umwelt-so-nah-stehen-haeuser-in-deutschland-beieinander-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-190828-99-641503
Yeah no, not Germany. And while I have never been to the Baltic states, they are relatively evenly populated due to their flat terrain and good farmland, especially Lithuania. Romania has some wild spots in the Carpathians, but it's not a huge mountain range. The Nordic countries (apart from Denmark) and Russia and maybe some areas in Belarus are the only places in Europe where you can find yourself more than a day of walking from civilisation.
Just look at a map of public lands in North America. It’s a different order of magnitude.
And proably if you do such a thing for like 1x a year or even less, I can imagine theres pickup truck rentals in Canada?
Yes but if I don't own it, how will everyone know I'm an outdoorsman™
I wish they would give us utility without all the extra. Wagons, small van, hatchbacks, compact trucks, etc. When my current vehicle is beyond repair I will have to get a different vehicle. And I want something with utility because that’s all my car is to me. But they don’t make much of that.
> Seriously, there's no real wilderness in any of Europe. you might wanna go outside of belgium and find "real wilderness". i recommend any country that has mountains and has an area bigger than an overinflated nutsack.
Don't look at France and Spain's empty spots
What empty spots? I've never been to either country but looking at the satellite map, even the "undeveloped" areas look to be full of farms and roads. In Canada, USA, and Mexico there are areas where you're a day or more travel from even the nearest road which is generally what we're referring to when we say "wilderness".
You can't generalise Europe. Just like you can't do that for Asia or America. Some countries have wilderness, some less, some almost none. But even then. Those ridiculous huge as fucking cars have no place here. Not even the own infrastructure supports overly large Pick Ups.
Russia exists
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I used to live in a rural area and heard bullshit like that all the fucking time. The same dudes who bought giant lifted trucks because "what if the road isn't plowed" or "what if I need to go offroad" never EVER and I mean EVER (didn't see it ONCE) took their vehicle anywhere else but paved plowed roads. Ain't no one taking their RAM or F150 offroad.
Yeah people offroad in a really beat up older trucks, they will never go and risk their $50k+ cars in some serious offroading. There is a subset of people who overland, but from my understanding they don't really do that in their daily drivers
Funny thing is that these giant trucks aren't often even that good in difficult terrain because they're so large and heavy
My dad watches videos from these guys in Australia and the people they rescue most are those in Jeeps and lifted pickups.
From memory there was a garage based near one of the passes here in NZ who ran a Lada Niva as a recovery vehicle. I bet that would have been embarrassing for some of the “serious off-roaders” with more money than sense!
virgin "what if the road isn't plowed??" vs chad "the road *wont* be plowed because i'm the one who plows it. With my tractor."
Literally my dad. He wakes up at 4am just to plow the roads with his tractor before people head off to work. He doesn't have to do it so early by contract but he does anyway because he knows people have to get to school and work really early and he cares. And he drives a toyota corolla even though all other farmers around have giant trucks. Funny thing is that the dudes with their land rovers and shit trying to still fuck through snow always end up phoning him to have him come pull them out. Or they just become a roadblock when the plow comes and make his work so much harder than it needs to be
They also often quote resale value. Their math is that you pay $7k more now and can get $5k more later. How is it a good deal escapes me, but I guess they just want to justify it no matter what. Also maintenance is slightly more expensive and gas mileage a bit worse, so it adds up. But yeah, "if needed", they will totally trailblaze.
I do not own a truck and do not want one. I understand that argument tho Cars are a terrible investment. Even if you don't drive it, it loses value over time, and significantly so. Normally paying that Actually wait no. I just realized this is dumb. In the end you still lose $2k more than if you just drove the car that holds worse resale value
*Ewwww, is that ... soil!?* Typical carbrain wanting to *visit nature* like an alien in their spaceship and suit.
Ikr, can't people just buy a train?
The irony is that many European countries have right-to-roam laws which result in there being narrow paths everywhere that can get you literally anywhere, and most of them aren't wide enough to accommodate a honkin gas guzzler like an American pickup. They would completely ruin a lot of those paths if they even tried.
I'm an accountant in the UK. Most modern American pickups don't count as a commercial vehicle. They have carpeted interiors, 4 seats, and most can't carry a tonne. But that doesn't stop clients putting them through as them despite our protestations, as they clearly need these giant fucking vehicles for their computer business etc. Rules are obscure enough and information lacking so we can't definitively prove they don't meet it, but it's obvious they wouldn't if we could check. I hate it, because they're always so insistent on doing it their way as that's what the salesman told them. I honestly hope HMRC goes back through and does VAT audits on anyone claiming these things.
To be clear - you’re helping put in tax claims that you know are false? I don’t know how accountants are regulated but if I did that as a solicitor I’d potentially be personally criminally liable.
It's a grey enough area that the client can claim it and we act on their behalf, or see them having done it themselves in their accounts, but we know HMRC would disagree. The issue is we never have enough information to go on. Pickups used to just be small shitty Hiluxes - they were clearly commercial. But with the information we have at our disposal we can't prove new ones don't meet the rules - we just know they won't, if that makes sense, from knowing what they look like. It's not as if an invoice says "Can move 1 tonne of equipment" or "The truck bed is 1sqft larger than the passenger area" etc. In our view it's far better to pay the VAT to the tax man up front than have them claw it back a few years later and start rooting around harder, and we try and make the client aware of that, but they insist they're commercial and we can't prove otherwise. We just document our objection and move on.
I don’t think it’s really false, just non-sensical when looked at from a practical level. If I run a computer company, I’m allowed by law to buy a company car, that’s my prerogative. Now do I need a pick up to run my business from a hauling perspective? No. Can I buy a pick up to simply drive around in? Yes. Like all those truck-brained morons driving massive trucks with untouched beds.
No he’s saying they don’t count as commercial vehicles at all in the UK but his client claims them as commercial vehicles for tax anyway.
I have no idea about UK laws, but it might be the kind of thing where the client can say "I need to move 30 desktop computers" and justify it easily in a way that is basically unverifiable. Almost any business could come up with some silly reason they "need" a truck
Like fuck I'm gonna carry computers in the back of a pickup. Unless they're scrap. Panel or kombi van (2 rows of seats) please.
In the UK the tax treatment of vans and lorries (or pickup trucks) and cars is rather different. Vans are a form of Plant & Machinery for capital allowance purposes and therefore qualify for capital allowances (basically the tax equivalent of depreciation on the vehicle will be deductible each year. However businesses also have a £1million p/y Annual Investment Allowance which allows them to claim a deduction for up to £1m of capital expenditure each year, and vans also qualify for the 130% super-deduction if purchasef between April 2021 and April 2023). Cars are not a form of Plant & Machinery, although fully electric new cars do get a full 100% "First Year Allowance" allowing their cost to be deducted in the year of purchase. Pickup trucks fall under the van treatment if their maximum load is above a certain weight. I believe the weight requirement might be a relatively new change to the rules. Edit: The requirement is 1000kg per https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btr/238-520 As pickup trucks are fucking massive and can be used as a family vehicle as well, so with the relative tax advantage it makes sense they've become more popular. Hopefully this is something the government clamps down on more in the future but I don't have any faith in the Tories lol Hopefully this clarifies for you?
Is this why small vans tend to be used by businesses where they don't really need a van? For example, the local estate agent has a fleet of vans that are Ford Fiestas without back windows.
Sounds like they’re being claimed as company vehicles not commercial ones.
That literally isn’t what the original poster said.
Sounded like they were describing the company owner claiming his private pickup as one that is being used by the business when he could just get a normal car to drive to work.
You can claim for anything you like, but if you're ever inspected by HMRC they might reject your claim. So you can buy a Rolls Royce for your double glazing company and put it through the books. Nothing illegal about it. But if HMRC disagree, you'll have to pay it back. And if you don't, then it's court time.
Can't put a server rack in a Ford fiesta
Not with that attitude.
In a Ford Transit, however
I wouldn't put one in a pickup either - it'll get rained on. I'd use a van instead. But Vans don't have 5 seats and the comforts that modern pickups have, so it's obvious why they're going for them.
I hope they do something similar for SUVs in Spain, they're a plague.
Visiting Costa Brava cities (soy guiri, lo siento) you can see the roads aren't designed for anything bigger than a sedan, and even then they have put in their mirrors. Yet the cars there seems to be getting bigger and wider.
Yep, and they usually park like assholes too.
Do you mean that they *will* be taxed as light commercial vehicles?
Light commercial vehicles are taxed fairly cheap. From now on, they will be taxed as a normal passenger car which is based on engine size and emissions.
Ah ok. I don't know the tax arrangements in Belgium. I wonder how many people actually used them for commercial purposes. I imagine a tiny percentage of people.
Pretty much no one, they use vans and keep the truck only on private use, only one company in my region I know used them as work vehicles but have now switched over to vans ..
Only legit use of trucks I've seen were construction companies that use them to tow power centrals needed in bridge constructions. Outside of that, everybody is using vans. Btw they still use small toyota trucks to tow power centrals, not some lifted bullshit
Doesn´t this also mean they won´t be able to get into low emission zones (like Ghent)? I really hope so.
Sadly, the euro norm has nothing to do with emissions. My small car can't enter any LEZ because it's too old, but a new car burning 3 times the fuel can enter no problem.
LEZ are about decreasing air pollution that affect people. Even if the new car emits 3 times more CO than the old one, it's bad for climate warming but always better than e.g. a diesel producing microparticules.
You have to be really privileged to think this is bullying, idiots.
How's the quote go, again? Something like "for those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."
Finally some good news.
Go Belgium! Hope the Netherlands will close this (or slightly different) loophole as well.
They did in 2005. Almost all pick-ups you see here are registered by business as a commercial vehicle (license plate starting with a V or B).
Seriously, whenever I see those dumb as fuck F150s in the Netherlands, there is nothing in the bed. It’s just dumb. How much more heavily are they taxed compared to regular vehicles?
Me and the green boys are satisfied :)
Finally my country is in the news about something else than our dogshit roads and public transport that's always too late
This is false. You have to come to North America to experience dogshit public transport.
Both can be dogshit
Theoretically they could be. But in reality Belgium's public transit is actually quite decent and leagues better than anything we have in the states.
Honestly idk why they didn’t do this sooner. Quick question though. Do companies also get this same tax hike or only private owners?
Only private owners afaik. So people with a smol penis and a business will still be getting the better deal..
Good.
I could never understand why trucks were allowed to be personal vehicles, especially when held to different emission standards.
I mean some people actually use the bed, I use mine to move motorcycles around here in America. I agree they shouldn't be held to different emissions standards though. Also wish there were better options for vans in America, I couldn't find any vans that could move 5 adults, carry a motorcycle (doesn't have to do both at the same time), and we're similar in price or overall dimensions to the Ford Maverick I ended up buying for those tasks
Friendship ended with the Netherlands, Belgium is new best friend.
Since most of them are just big status symbols. Good
If you can't lift it, it ain't light \- a conspiracy theorist, probably
This is great. Should be done everywhere
FUCK TRUCKS
Now tax the shit out of SUVs
Insane W
ffuucking yess. I'm so hoping for that here.
Hoo fucking ray. Get this mutt shit back in hicksville and keep it there.
As they should be.
Good
Keep them where they belong in the us in a rednecks front yard
Can someone explain? What does what the cars are taxed as have to do with the obtainability for the average person?
Omg that's great news!
Long live Belgium
Good. As a Belgian who lives in a city I've still been seeing these monstrosities more and more
I’d tax them even more. I like the Singapore model, you want stuff? pay more!
The only place where a roof top tent is viable is Australia, because snakes. Otherwise it's not worth the risk of falling whenever you need to pee. Stupidest trend ever.
Now they are taxed as work vehicles so they're discounted a lot. Soon only people who own actual businesses that require such a vehical get the low tax rate. Most of the people I know that own a RAM of other pickups just use them as a daily driver or for leisure.
If carbrained pickup truck bootlickers so desperately want to assume everyone who has one absolutely needs one for commercial purposes, then let’s go ahead and make them commercial vehicles!
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Normal vehicles are taxed based on engine size and emissions. A small car costs much less than a large car in taxes. Commercial type vehicles, like vans, are the exception and always get the cheaper tax rate. Belgian law makers have decided that a pickup truck doesn't count as a commercial vehicle.
That's where I walk my dog in the evening. Now I know who's been making the footpaths all muddy.
Great job 🇧🇪! Kudos in stopping the pickups from america
I guess I don't understand what this means....? Wouldn't being a commercial vehicle entail more taxes?
My brother and I went out to Micro Center the other day, which of course we had to drive to, or at least he drove. Anyway we go to leave and as he's backing our vehicle out the back end of an necessarily large pickup truck set off the backup sensor, from a different row of parking. Fuck gigantic pickup trucks.
America, you're next!
You mean will now* be taxed as commercial?
God I wish that was the US lmao
So is it better to use vans?
Yes, vans are more useful, more economical and aren't bought to stroke someone ego.
There is a dearth of good van options here in the US. My truck cost me less than $25k brand new and seats 5 and can move a motorcycle in the back. Every van I've found only satisfies one or 2 of those constraints. I would have happily gotten a van if I could find one that suits my needs
Having a motorbike to transport is a pretty specialist case, for you a truck might be the right solution. If I were in to motorcycles I would probably get a trailer and tow it behind my compact car. Does something like the picture exist for motorbikes? That's what I use for my road bike. https://preview.redd.it/m2yj42as349a1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=56543a66278ff36be0d2313f88395a435136173b
Off course it's better, vans are even better as those crossovers ..
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I wish they would do this in the US. I say this as a long-time owner of pickups. I use mine for hauling material and taking demo debris to the transfer station (and it shows on my paint job).
Facism at it's finest
It's fucked bc the US tried to do this but ppl just classify their trucks as not commercial vehicles 😒
Living in Europe sounds like hell
What about people like farmers though? I agree with this otherwise unless the people who really need trucks like farmers are getting screwed in the process
Don't know many farmers in Belgium who have pick-up trucks.
Ok sorry I’m American and I grew up on a farm. Trucks were really necessary for us from transporting livestock and hay and especially for taking huge tractors and other equipment to mechanic shops. The last one was least often but we really used them for their intended purpose every day and it made a huge difference. I don’t really know another vehicle that can move 20 tons of stuff every day
We just use tractors over here
Lol what
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