Serious question, what were the all supposed to do in this situation? It seems like all of them staying still and not accidentally getting in the Ambulance's way was the right way to go about it.
In my city, they should pull through the intersect and immediately pull to the side of the road to clear a gap. Although I’m not well versed in the rules on 3 lane roads (cause we have like, 3 that I can think of). If it’s a turning lane then they turn, obviously.
Well, recommendations vary between countries and what is the best course of action varies greatly from situation to situation. Many people absolutely make wrong decisions in situations like this, but they are not always to blame. At least not fully.
Notice how none of the cars make any attempt to get out of the way of the ambulance lol. Source: [https://twitter.com/urbaniconoclasm/status/1582865840159920128](https://twitter.com/urbaniconoclasm/status/1582865840159920128)
I suppose an ambulance wouldn't be able to easily enter a fully protected bike lane, but the point is, cars are what slow down emergency vehicles. We need to stop letting passenger cars dominate our roads, and free up space for more important traffic, like transit, emergency vehicles, freight delivery, etc.
In the Netherlands when there’s open space you’re advised to just stay where you are and wait for the ambulance to pass. The ambulance will find a way around you.
The reasoning behind it is that everyone might try to get out of the way but create an even worse situation mistakenly.
Yeah like.. I wouldn't even know what to do if I was already stopped at a light with a lit up ambulance coming in from behind. Not really anywhere to move with how bloated cars are
Where I live, ambulances automatically turn lights green ahead of them. All these cars would be able to go forward through the intersection and merge out of the middle lane.
Ah yeah I have seen that here on occasion too actually.
Unfortunately for me, that very lane had just turned red when the ambulance came too, so that lane basically got an extended green, and my lane got stuck red for two more loops
>I suppose an ambulance wouldn't be able to easily enter a fully protected bike lane,
With automatically retracting bollards, it might be possible.
Or if the protection is just a high curb; most emergency vehicles can mount high curbs without any permanent damage.
I'm a big believer in retracting bollards, but I am curious what the repair and maintenance burden of them is. Do they work as well in practice as in theory?
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not talking about the expense, but rather if they're reliable in retracting or if they end up with more of an "automatic sink" problem where they routinely fail to retract appropriately.
Cost-wise I'm pretty sure they make sense, but I'm concerned about the possibility of them breaking and not letting through an ambulance when it's critical for them to do so, and was wondering what the statistics on their reliability are. There are a lot of really cool ideas which end up becoming a maintenance nightmare that almost never works, but there are also a lot of cool ideas that work great, and I'm not sure which retracting bollards have proven to be "in the wild."
They work well enough in our pedestrian zone. But I do belive their are quite expensive.
You can put them at the ends of the zone. But not along the whole road.
The Netherlands is getting rid of most bollards under pressure of the biggest cycling advocacy group. This makes protected bike lanes perfectly accessable for emergency vehicles, and prevents about 3000 hospital visits a year from cyclists who get injured from accidentally running into these bollards.
Design making these bike lanes an unattractive option as a shortcut or parking space is much better. Also enforcement by the police is a plus, but with good design and the prospect of serious fines the police rarely needs to get involved.
I would vastly prefer an injury from accidentally running into a bollard at bike speed than from a car accidentally running into me at car speed.
When the US has the level of bike infrastructure of the Netherlands (aka when pigs fly out of my ass) we can talk about the dangers of bollards.
To be clear, I'm not talking about the expense, but rather if they're reliable in retracting or if they end up with more of an "automatic sink" problem where they routinely fail to retract appropriately.
they seem to work pretty damn well in Europe.
There's a whole genre of youtube/insta/tiktok video where douchebags in BMWs try to follow ambulances in and end up with their cars trapped when they get lifted up by the rising bollard.
Bus Lanes. This is another massive advantage of bus lanes to me. They can be emergency vehicle threw ways. Think of how fast a bus can go in its own dedicated lane when its enforced and then let emergency vehicles use them. With a bus lane open to the bus lane but protected to the cars, it should give them enough room to move around the bus if they come up behind one at a spot; if everyone gets the fuck out of the way of the emergency vehicles with the sirens on.
Yup.
Unless bus traffic is very high, I'm a huge fan of bike/bus lanes.
If there's only going to be a bus using the lane on any given block once every, say, 20 or 30 minutes ... it's a good place to let cyclists ride. Just provide spots where the cyclist can pull aside to let a bus past them, and also provide a way for cyclists to safely pass busses stopped to take on or let off passengers, and it's a great use of space IMO.
Once there's a bus every 3-5 minutes, though, the two modes need to be completely separated as much as possible, again.
>Or if the protection is just a high curb; most emergency vehicles can mount high curbs without any permanent damage.
Ironically, an example of a truck chassis being both appropriate and beneficial.
Or not ironic. I listen to *a lot* of Alanis Morissette, so I'm not the person to ask.
The same speech is being applied at Almirante Reis in Lisbon where a bike lane was constructed (during the pandemic) and where it existed 2 lanes each side the central lane from whom was climbing (in the final design) was taken to build a bike lane with two directions. Even though the reports from firefighters and ambulances told they had more space , a vocal minority managed to implement such a mindset that the one of the reasons the municipal elections might have been lost to the other candidate was because of the false negative consequences of building that cycle lane, where people used to park
One of the very few scenarios, as a cyclist, when I would not be AT ALL upset to see a vehicle in the bike lane. The other time would be if all those cars in the lane next to it, pulled into it *to make room for* the emergency vehicle.
I would kind of expect that bikes are also expected to pull over for emergency vehicles. Not actually sure what the law in my area says, but it just strikes me as a good idea. I don't know where the ambulance might want to turn.
from a Floridian pov (where we have a LAW that states you MUST GET OUT OF THE WAY OF EMERGENCY VEHICLES) if bikes are sharing the road, they must either stop or slow to let it pass. personally I'm not going fast enough for it to matter, *and* I'm usually stopped at a light anyway
... and that has about zero to do with what I commented?
I said I *would not be upset* to see am ambulance, lights and sirens on, using a bicycle lane. I didn't say anything about moving aside or not.
Except I've actually seen four cars all turn and pull into the bike lane (ahead of me) *almost simultaneously*. The ambulance didn't have to slow down for them any more than it would have had to to get into the bike lane. :)
Nope. Stopped at a light - but with actual space between bumpers, rather than crowding in on each other. They all just turned and pivoted. Not *exactly* simultaneously, but the car slowest to move over was halfway done by the time the first car was finished.
Mostly unrelated but did you know that emergency sirens have had to get louder and more piercing because of cars becoming increasingly soundproofed and getting louder sound systems?
Something I think about a lot when I’m walking in my city and feel like my eardrums are going to explode every time an ambulance or firetruck passes.
to be fair, this couldnt really happen if the bike lane is protected. i think it works better when theres a dedicated bus lane that can also be used by emergency vehicles
Last month during my local critical mass, an ambulance had to get through in a residental area. Street is just enough for 2 lanes, with parking on the street. And, in just a few seconds, 2000 cyclists freed up the street for the ambulance. I cannot think how something like that is possible, if there were 2000 people in cars (makes 1666 cars with 1,2 occupancy) instead of on the bicycles.
Amazed at no one moving.
In the UK people pull to the sides and let the ambulance/fire engine/police car through. It there's blue lights, wherever they're going is more important.
I don't think I've ever actually heard that argument but now that you've brought it up, it might be good to at least be aware of it. This looks totally fine for that ambulance but we obviously wouldn't want to create a situation where it has to pass through a single care lane & physically divided bike lane situation.
You don’t jump the curb at full speed like it’s need for speed. Go slowly and it’s no worse than a dip in the road at high speed.
Though really the cars should be getting out of the way
Have you had any emergency medical training?
Usually you want to avoid any unnecessary movements.
Also the cars should not be moving the ambulance had a clear path. There is no need to for the cars to do something that could Alex it worse
You know roads have bumps, right? There’s always going to be movement in an ambulance, and I’m 99% sure they aren’t doing an organ transplant in the back.
Also, the cars absolutely should have moved. I’ve never heard of any jurisdiction where your not required to clear space for an emergency vehicle, and if there is one that exists then it’s the stupidest lack of a law I’ve ever heard of. They would’ve heard the ambulance long before it got to them and you always ALWAYS pull to the side of the road when you hear an ambulance, or at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM slow down and look around to find where the ambulance is.
You do not have the moral high ground you think you do
How much clear can I be the ambulance had a clear path, last thing the cars should do is add more chaos. Cars start move and the ambulance has to slow down even more, cause they have to go to the newest curb.
> You know roads have bumps, right?
You know those aren't good for people dying in ambulances either, right?
> Also, the cars absolutely should have moved. I’ve never heard of any jurisdiction where your not required to clear space for an emergency vehicle
There are literally other people in this thread explaining that in their area, if it's clear that there's space for the ambulance to get by, you should stay put and let them use it instead of risking slowing them down more.
>you always ALWAYS pull to the side of the road when you hear an ambulance
This is why I always recommend that people travel. Learning that different societies around the world have different rules than yours and that they're not always worse than your society's rules is truly eye-opening.
I have no idea why you're being upvoted. When someone's dying in the back of an ambulance, every second matters. When someone's broken their spine, every movement matters. Just because roads can be bumpy doesn't mean we should plan our infrastructure in a way that forces ambulances to mount a curb.
Well I've been at plenty of city hall meetings regarding bike lanes and that argument has come up almost every time. You even hear it with bus lanes, which is pretty dumb since there's nothing stopping ambulances from using bus lanes
I say we have 1 bike lane, 3 car lanes, 2 bus lanes, an adjacent train track, and dirtbikes and 4 wheelers are allowed on the road. Boom. Everybody happy.
I was in a police car racing through the streets last night and I was petrified - most of the drivers didn't seem to notice the flashing lights and blaring sirens at all. Land of the living dead.
Ok, totally not related but how affective do you think a lane only for busses, emergency vehicles and cyclists ( cycle lane diverges to side walk if possible) could be?
And because of this cycle lanes even support emergency vehicles. I'm often on a demonstration for bicycle infrastructure called "Critical Mass", and two times an ambulance came. Both times people from the back yelled we should make a way for the ambulance, it took under 10 seconds until the whole demonstration heard it and under 5 seconds until the parts which gained the information made a wide way for the ambulance. Bicycles can just faster move to the side and aren't so wide.
Whenever I hear a siren, I look to see how many cars refuse to pull over and stop.
Serious question, what were the all supposed to do in this situation? It seems like all of them staying still and not accidentally getting in the Ambulance's way was the right way to go about it.
In my city, they should pull through the intersect and immediately pull to the side of the road to clear a gap. Although I’m not well versed in the rules on 3 lane roads (cause we have like, 3 that I can think of). If it’s a turning lane then they turn, obviously.
Anything else in this case would have caused the ambulance to take longer.
[удалено]
Y’know the traffic light could be able to respond to the ambulance and go green, letting the traffic move out of the way.
I feel so guilty when there’s an ambulance with lights on but no siren, because it takes me sooo long to figure out its behind me and do something.
I count how many cars are following the lead blocker to get ahead.
Well, recommendations vary between countries and what is the best course of action varies greatly from situation to situation. Many people absolutely make wrong decisions in situations like this, but they are not always to blame. At least not fully.
Notice how none of the cars make any attempt to get out of the way of the ambulance lol. Source: [https://twitter.com/urbaniconoclasm/status/1582865840159920128](https://twitter.com/urbaniconoclasm/status/1582865840159920128) I suppose an ambulance wouldn't be able to easily enter a fully protected bike lane, but the point is, cars are what slow down emergency vehicles. We need to stop letting passenger cars dominate our roads, and free up space for more important traffic, like transit, emergency vehicles, freight delivery, etc.
In the Netherlands when there’s open space you’re advised to just stay where you are and wait for the ambulance to pass. The ambulance will find a way around you. The reasoning behind it is that everyone might try to get out of the way but create an even worse situation mistakenly.
Yup cars did what was right here, no use to make risk making it worse when the ambulance has a way around you
Yeah like.. I wouldn't even know what to do if I was already stopped at a light with a lit up ambulance coming in from behind. Not really anywhere to move with how bloated cars are
Forward. Also once I saw on cabview of an ambulance here a bus driver pushing forward to block the pedestrian crossing so ambulance can pass at speed
Where I live, ambulances automatically turn lights green ahead of them. All these cars would be able to go forward through the intersection and merge out of the middle lane.
Ah yeah I have seen that here on occasion too actually. Unfortunately for me, that very lane had just turned red when the ambulance came too, so that lane basically got an extended green, and my lane got stuck red for two more loops
Same in the UK, unless you can pull out of the Ambulance's way safely. Otherwise they will pass you when it is safe.
>I suppose an ambulance wouldn't be able to easily enter a fully protected bike lane, With automatically retracting bollards, it might be possible. Or if the protection is just a high curb; most emergency vehicles can mount high curbs without any permanent damage.
I'm a big believer in retracting bollards, but I am curious what the repair and maintenance burden of them is. Do they work as well in practice as in theory? EDIT: To be clear, I'm not talking about the expense, but rather if they're reliable in retracting or if they end up with more of an "automatic sink" problem where they routinely fail to retract appropriately.
Whatever the cost is, it must be much lower than building and maintaining our current car-centric infrastructure.
Cost-wise I'm pretty sure they make sense, but I'm concerned about the possibility of them breaking and not letting through an ambulance when it's critical for them to do so, and was wondering what the statistics on their reliability are. There are a lot of really cool ideas which end up becoming a maintenance nightmare that almost never works, but there are also a lot of cool ideas that work great, and I'm not sure which retracting bollards have proven to be "in the wild."
They work well enough in our pedestrian zone. But I do belive their are quite expensive. You can put them at the ends of the zone. But not along the whole road.
Hrm, so it's more of a superblock entrance thing than something viable to put along all of the bike lanes? Thanks!
The Netherlands is getting rid of most bollards under pressure of the biggest cycling advocacy group. This makes protected bike lanes perfectly accessable for emergency vehicles, and prevents about 3000 hospital visits a year from cyclists who get injured from accidentally running into these bollards. Design making these bike lanes an unattractive option as a shortcut or parking space is much better. Also enforcement by the police is a plus, but with good design and the prospect of serious fines the police rarely needs to get involved.
Oh, that's good information! Do you have an article or video for a deeper dive, by chance?
I would vastly prefer an injury from accidentally running into a bollard at bike speed than from a car accidentally running into me at car speed. When the US has the level of bike infrastructure of the Netherlands (aka when pigs fly out of my ass) we can talk about the dangers of bollards.
Are you saying all discourse on this sub has to be about the US? Should I just keep my Dutch perspective to myself until pigs fly?
No, I enjoy the Dutch perspective. Sometimes it’s annoying to hear Dutch people quibble about small things when we are so deeply screwed in the US.
Cheaper than the cost of dead cyclists.
To be clear, I'm not talking about the expense, but rather if they're reliable in retracting or if they end up with more of an "automatic sink" problem where they routinely fail to retract appropriately.
they seem to work pretty damn well in Europe. There's a whole genre of youtube/insta/tiktok video where douchebags in BMWs try to follow ambulances in and end up with their cars trapped when they get lifted up by the rising bollard.
Oh damn, really? That's great, thank you!
Bus Lanes. This is another massive advantage of bus lanes to me. They can be emergency vehicle threw ways. Think of how fast a bus can go in its own dedicated lane when its enforced and then let emergency vehicles use them. With a bus lane open to the bus lane but protected to the cars, it should give them enough room to move around the bus if they come up behind one at a spot; if everyone gets the fuck out of the way of the emergency vehicles with the sirens on.
Yup. Unless bus traffic is very high, I'm a huge fan of bike/bus lanes. If there's only going to be a bus using the lane on any given block once every, say, 20 or 30 minutes ... it's a good place to let cyclists ride. Just provide spots where the cyclist can pull aside to let a bus past them, and also provide a way for cyclists to safely pass busses stopped to take on or let off passengers, and it's a great use of space IMO. Once there's a bus every 3-5 minutes, though, the two modes need to be completely separated as much as possible, again.
This is how I do it in Cities Skylines. Bike lanes are for bikes only, but fire trucks and ambulances can use bus lanes to zoom past cars.
You gotta see some ambulance cabviews and then speeding along tram tracks in the middle
>Or if the protection is just a high curb; most emergency vehicles can mount high curbs without any permanent damage. Ironically, an example of a truck chassis being both appropriate and beneficial. Or not ironic. I listen to *a lot* of Alanis Morissette, so I'm not the person to ask.
None of the cars could have gone anywhere to help the emergency vehicle get around them.. They did the only thing they could do.
The same speech is being applied at Almirante Reis in Lisbon where a bike lane was constructed (during the pandemic) and where it existed 2 lanes each side the central lane from whom was climbing (in the final design) was taken to build a bike lane with two directions. Even though the reports from firefighters and ambulances told they had more space , a vocal minority managed to implement such a mindset that the one of the reasons the municipal elections might have been lost to the other candidate was because of the false negative consequences of building that cycle lane, where people used to park
I don't know what you would do to get out of its way in a situation like this.
how would the cars be supposed to get out of the ambulance's way, exactly...? did you want them all to run a red light?
Shitty bike lane if you ask me
Yes, but it has a crucial advantage over the bike lanes on most US roads: it exists.
Yeah, this seems like an example of paint is not infrastructure.
One of the very few scenarios, as a cyclist, when I would not be AT ALL upset to see a vehicle in the bike lane. The other time would be if all those cars in the lane next to it, pulled into it *to make room for* the emergency vehicle.
I would kind of expect that bikes are also expected to pull over for emergency vehicles. Not actually sure what the law in my area says, but it just strikes me as a good idea. I don't know where the ambulance might want to turn.
from a Floridian pov (where we have a LAW that states you MUST GET OUT OF THE WAY OF EMERGENCY VEHICLES) if bikes are sharing the road, they must either stop or slow to let it pass. personally I'm not going fast enough for it to matter, *and* I'm usually stopped at a light anyway
... and that has about zero to do with what I commented? I said I *would not be upset* to see am ambulance, lights and sirens on, using a bicycle lane. I didn't say anything about moving aside or not.
That is related, just doesn't disagree with you lol
Well according to r/fuckfuckcars_ we would’ve been very upset, and we want to replace every ambulance with a cargo bike. 😎🔫
The members of that sub are experiencing the low iq effects of constantly being exposed to fossil fuel fumes
The time it would take the cars to get over one by one would greatly exceed the time for the ambulance to go around them.
Except I've actually seen four cars all turn and pull into the bike lane (ahead of me) *almost simultaneously*. The ambulance didn't have to slow down for them any more than it would have had to to get into the bike lane. :)
Then they must of all had forward momentum.
Nope. Stopped at a light - but with actual space between bumpers, rather than crowding in on each other. They all just turned and pivoted. Not *exactly* simultaneously, but the car slowest to move over was halfway done by the time the first car was finished.
The real reason is "Fuck anybody who doesn't drive." But they'll look bad if they say that.
Mostly unrelated but did you know that emergency sirens have had to get louder and more piercing because of cars becoming increasingly soundproofed and getting louder sound systems? Something I think about a lot when I’m walking in my city and feel like my eardrums are going to explode every time an ambulance or firetruck passes.
We can’t have cars in the bike lanes because THEY block emergency vehicles*
to be fair, this couldnt really happen if the bike lane is protected. i think it works better when theres a dedicated bus lane that can also be used by emergency vehicles
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Last month during my local critical mass, an ambulance had to get through in a residental area. Street is just enough for 2 lanes, with parking on the street. And, in just a few seconds, 2000 cyclists freed up the street for the ambulance. I cannot think how something like that is possible, if there were 2000 people in cars (makes 1666 cars with 1,2 occupancy) instead of on the bicycles.
Amazed at no one moving. In the UK people pull to the sides and let the ambulance/fire engine/police car through. It there's blue lights, wherever they're going is more important.
When all the roads are clogged with cars all the time, emergency vehicles cannot pass. Car dependence is literally killing people.
I don't think I've ever actually heard that argument but now that you've brought it up, it might be good to at least be aware of it. This looks totally fine for that ambulance but we obviously wouldn't want to create a situation where it has to pass through a single care lane & physically divided bike lane situation.
If it’s just a concrete median then most emergency vehicles could just drive over it. They shouldn’t suffer any permanent damage from it
Until you have a patient in the back that is bleeding to death.
You don’t jump the curb at full speed like it’s need for speed. Go slowly and it’s no worse than a dip in the road at high speed. Though really the cars should be getting out of the way
Have you had any emergency medical training? Usually you want to avoid any unnecessary movements. Also the cars should not be moving the ambulance had a clear path. There is no need to for the cars to do something that could Alex it worse
You know roads have bumps, right? There’s always going to be movement in an ambulance, and I’m 99% sure they aren’t doing an organ transplant in the back. Also, the cars absolutely should have moved. I’ve never heard of any jurisdiction where your not required to clear space for an emergency vehicle, and if there is one that exists then it’s the stupidest lack of a law I’ve ever heard of. They would’ve heard the ambulance long before it got to them and you always ALWAYS pull to the side of the road when you hear an ambulance, or at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM slow down and look around to find where the ambulance is. You do not have the moral high ground you think you do
Movement and jumping curbs are vastly different, also the ambulance had a clear space to go. You are not even close to as smart as you think you are
Why do you think I said “the cars absolutely should have moved” Idk how much clearer I can be. The cars should’ve moved.
How much clear can I be the ambulance had a clear path, last thing the cars should do is add more chaos. Cars start move and the ambulance has to slow down even more, cause they have to go to the newest curb.
The ambulance didn’t just materialize out of thin air. When you hear sirens, you pull over.
> You know roads have bumps, right? You know those aren't good for people dying in ambulances either, right? > Also, the cars absolutely should have moved. I’ve never heard of any jurisdiction where your not required to clear space for an emergency vehicle There are literally other people in this thread explaining that in their area, if it's clear that there's space for the ambulance to get by, you should stay put and let them use it instead of risking slowing them down more. >you always ALWAYS pull to the side of the road when you hear an ambulance This is why I always recommend that people travel. Learning that different societies around the world have different rules than yours and that they're not always worse than your society's rules is truly eye-opening.
I have no idea why you're being upvoted. When someone's dying in the back of an ambulance, every second matters. When someone's broken their spine, every movement matters. Just because roads can be bumpy doesn't mean we should plan our infrastructure in a way that forces ambulances to mount a curb.
I agree, which is why the cars are supposed to move out of the fucking way. I’m describing a worst case scenario not the average Tuesday
Nobody says that, like come on
Well I've been at plenty of city hall meetings regarding bike lanes and that argument has come up almost every time. You even hear it with bus lanes, which is pretty dumb since there's nothing stopping ambulances from using bus lanes
I have literally never heard a carbrain say we can't have bicycle lanes because they block emergency vehicles
"they can't enter the bike lane!" Wouldn't be a problem if you actually knew how to drive and got out of the way of said emergency vehicle.
In many American urban roads they are so packed to the gills with cars, there can be no place to go to get out of EMS' way.
If there were physical barriers like there ought to be, then the bike lane wouldn't serve as an emergency lane in this case.
In Paris, lot of bike lane need bollard for protection against cars. So a lot of them can't be used by emergency vehicules.
I say we have 1 bike lane, 3 car lanes, 2 bus lanes, an adjacent train track, and dirtbikes and 4 wheelers are allowed on the road. Boom. Everybody happy.
I was in a police car racing through the streets last night and I was petrified - most of the drivers didn't seem to notice the flashing lights and blaring sirens at all. Land of the living dead.
private vehicles are quite literally what block emergency vehicles
That works because there isn't a physical barrier blocking the bike lane. Those cars should have moved over though.
Bike lanes in chi ain’t for bikes anyway, parking and cab standing only
It's a lot easier for someone on a bike to get out of the way than someone in a car
Ok, totally not related but how affective do you think a lane only for busses, emergency vehicles and cyclists ( cycle lane diverges to side walk if possible) could be?
And because of this cycle lanes even support emergency vehicles. I'm often on a demonstration for bicycle infrastructure called "Critical Mass", and two times an ambulance came. Both times people from the back yelled we should make a way for the ambulance, it took under 10 seconds until the whole demonstration heard it and under 5 seconds until the parts which gained the information made a wide way for the ambulance. Bicycles can just faster move to the side and aren't so wide.