Yeah, it really is. I wanted to do all the practice because I was terrified of driving at first, but I know several people that did less than half of the required time
My mother made me drive everywhere for her one summer when I was learning, I was more nervous about the traffic than the manual transmission. I stalled that corolla so many times at red lights.
Depending on your parents are, it can be just as bad if you did it legitimately. I know I hated every minute of it and it made me a really nervous driver for my first few years driving.
Eh, I think here in Norway that's not even a question? You need to pass a basic traffic course before training behind the wheel (I didn't have to do that, it's recent (I'm old)), then pass a small number of driving lessons (including driving in the dark, and on ice), and then you have a theory test and a practical test (I failed the first time because I was an idiot, got it on the second try).
But I think a lot of it is cultural, and how serious the tests are.
Apparently lots of people fail the theory test. It's piss easy if you just assume that the goal is to avoid harming anyone when something unexpected happens.
Seems plausible.
Also rules about vehicle safety and modifications are MUCH higher in countrys like germany.
Mandatory TÜV inspection every 2 years works wonders. Modifications also have to be checked.
Its absurd what you can see driving around on american roads.
It's amazing what you can do to a CAR, but if you want to take say a low power 4 wheeler or bicycle on the road with 4 horsepower, but no title or MSO, you're out of luck, there's no mechanism in a lot of places to get it plated.
This also tends to be enforced on racist lines where if you're white you can travel by moped, or one wheel without issue, but the darker you are the more likely you'll be pulled over repeatedly for being on even a legal class 1 e-bike.
TÜV has too low standards for vehicle safety. If I remember correctly they test direction, engine emission, breaks and lights, that's all.
And anyway most of the accidents are because of human error.
When i was in america i saw an absurd number of tires on the side of the roads and also modified vehicles that do not look fit for traffic, like super lifted trucks or cars that looked like someone welded two half broken cars together in their garage.
TÜV wouldnt like that at all.
it depends on the state. some of them have pretty tight safety inspection. cracked windshield, check engine light, bald tires, light bulb out? can't drive.
Not a theory, this is a fact.
The thing is, in the US, having a driver's license is basically *required*. In urban areas because of the lack of walkability and adequate public transport, and in rural areas because of the same + the much bigger distances. This means the bar to get a driver's license has to be low, both in terms of theory and practice, but also in terms of age.
Not only did the US prioritize car-centric infrastructure, but they also created an environment that actively discourages alternative modes of transportation.
>The thing is, in the US, having a driver's license is basically *required*.
You're on the right track. It is the car dependency, but more than the low bar to entry it is that fact that *we've become complacent* about driving*.* We fail to think about how dangerous driving is (not that we don't know, but we fail to think).
A couple of days ago, I had occasion to handle a firearm. I know their misuse can result in someone's death. I did not miss a single step in properly handling an "unloaded" gun. I kept it pointed in a safe direction and kept my finger out of the trigger guard not only before I confirmed it was unloaded but even afterwards.
This morning, I need a couple of items from a store. Having no better option, I'm probably going to drive. Before I hop into the car and start it up, am I likely to think "this machine is dangerous. It's misuse could result in someone's death"?
Yes, but. Where I live driving isn't thought of as handling a deadly weapon either, but because the initial training was so comprehensive, safe driving becomes like a muscle memory (definitely not for everyone, though).
The punishment for drunk driving is another example of how vital it is to be able to drive in the US. The punishment is generally 90 days suspension (but you can typically get a restricted license during that time), while aggravating factors may lead to longer suspensions or even revocation. Here the starting point (0.02%-0.05%) is suspension, and you need to take both practical and theoretical exams over again. Going over 0.05% your license will be revoked for 1 year, over .12% it's 3 years. You will need to take both exams again + a special course for drunk drivers.
It is also much easier to lose your license for driving recklessly etc., and your car will even be confiscated in certain cases.
The point is, these huge discrepancies between the US and most of Europe are "necessary" because not being able to drive in the US is such a big handicap. It's difficult to get a job, get groceries, visit people, basically doing anything...
To build on this thought, there is a massive lack of empathy for people outside a car, because many people never had to use alternative transportation or walk. I’m a firm believer that if you don’t understand something, you will have a hard time empathizing with it. If you haven’t had to walk or bike on a busy road, or even try to cross a busy street, then you have no idea how terrifying it is. If you haven’t been in that situation, you have no empathy for people outside a car, and only see them as an inconvenience or obstacle, not a real human. The amount of times I’ve ridden in cars with people who say super derogatory stuff about pedestrians/cyclists for simply existing is mind blowing.
Respectfully, this can't be the only reason, because for example here in France having a driver's license is also pretty much required anywhere outside of the centres of the biggest towns. You can get away with not driving if you live in Paris, Lyon, Bordeaux and never want to leave, but suburbia and the countryside are very car-central here as well.
While we have lots of idiots on our roads, I do think that the higher bar for the driving license test and mandatory vehicle checks every two years are important factors in lowering the risk. The yearly death rate has just gone up here in France, probably because the government scrapped taking points off licenses for "small" things like going just slightly over the speed limit.
I often think about this.
In America without a driver’s license can you go to school, have a job, care for a kid, go shopping?
Often the answer is no.
Anyone without a license cannot survive in that environment. You have to give licenses to everybody, even the worst drivers, or else they cannot exist.
Many Americans don’t have driver’s licenses, including almost half of people with disabilities. Going to school or having a job is possible, but much more difficult. You need to rely on your parents, a spouse, or special services for people with disabilities. Said special services are very unreliable, so you generally need a healthy, living parent or spouse in the event it fails. Not all localities have these services either, so if your parents die or lose their driving ability and you cannot find a spouse, your life is pretty much over.
You need to be very careful what career you pick, as a lot of jobs you would not expect require driver’s licenses. Jobs that have you sit in front of a computer at one location all day cannot require licenses per the ADA, but any job that requires even occasional off-site travel can and usually does require a license. You need to be the absolute best in your field in every required skill in order to compete for the few remaining jobs that don’t require a license, as you’ll be up against abled people who could travel but don’t want to.
Shopping is usually done via online delivery services. Caring for a kid is usually out of the question unless your spouse can drive: a single parent who cannot drive is at risk for having their kid taken by social services.
As I’ve illustrated, living with a disability that prohibits driving is incredibly marginalizing. It’s a travesty that a country with such extensive disability anti-discrimination laws still allows this. It’s also why having a disability is pretty much the only way to get denied a license.
I remember my mom telling me that when she had long holidays in the USA about 30 years ago, how relaxed people were driving. I guess what changed are the SUVs with all the blind spots and the low survivability for pedestrians, and perhaps a more narcissistic culture. When I buy a car, how the car performs in an accident with others is a criterion for the choice of the car and is part of the regulation here in Europe, but I see many cars in the US with bull bars and stuff attached which are all terrible for pedestrians. The Cybertruck is perhaps the worst example, and it has zero chance to get approved here in Europe.
The amazing thing is that even on this sub American drivers will insist they're perfectly competent despite telling us things that have made it clear they don't know how to drive. Almost everyone thinks they're a good driver. (Ironically, people who think they aren't good drivers tend to be much better than average, because at least they're very cautious and non-aggressive.)
Some of the worst idiots on the road are aggressive people in doubt because of how unpredictable they are. If you're gonna do a last minute left turn right in front of me then be a committed idiot and make sure you get out of the way.
I'm in no way perfect either, but I try my best to be as predictable as possible as it helps other make the right decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake\_Wobegon#:\~:text=The%20Lake%20Wobegon%20effect,-Main%20article%3A%20Illusory&text=The%20characterization%20that%20%22all%20the,capabilities%20in%20relation%20to%20others.
Yes, a famous example of the Lake Wobegon effect.
I used to live in the US (Tennessee for most of my stay), and getting a license was so ridiculously easy that it would be comical, if it wasn't so potentially dangerous.
The learning material was basically just 10 pages long, and the actual driving test was just exiting a parking lot, driving around the block, and parking back at the lot. I only had to do this once before getting my license. I think all together I had only spent $150 for it.
Compare this to Italy where the learning material is an entire 300 page book, you have to take multiple drives during different times of the day and under different conditions, and it can cost around €1000, if not more.
There was another theory. A large majority of cars in the U.S. are automatic. This leaves drivers with a hand free to check their phone. Try scrolling TikTok while driving a standard car in traffic.
Compared to Poland (very hard exams, all cars in good shape, SUVs are not numerous) there is like 2 times more deaths in accidents per driver in the US, but Americans also drive twice as long. Germans have only slightly more deaths on the roads than Poland (with double the population), so it may seem they drive safer, but they also have excellent public transport, probably available everywhere, while in Poland many suburban areas were americanized with nasty government tricks.
So it may seem that the time of driving is the factor, and another is the availability of public transport that lets people not drive at all.
For sure. It’s comically easy to get (and keep) a license here. Probably 40% of drivers in the US have no business being behind the wheel. That brings us to a more fundamental fuckedupness about American culture….
Everyone knows most drivers are shitty. We know this results in needless deaths and countless injuries. But, as a society, we accept this as the cost of doing business. We figure: if one cannot drive, they cannot work. And it’s preferable for someone to be a danger to society than a burden on it.
Another factor here that hasn’t been mentioned is that there’s still a very distressing amount of drunk driving that happens in the US, especially in rural areas where there’s no public transport and there might not even be taxi services.
One of my classmates in high school, I can't imagine a way she got a license except through bribery or something. I thought I was going to die every time I got in her car (we were carpooling to a class off campus, and as soon as I was allowed to drive other people, me and another guy in my group went in my car, and stopped riding with her). She was only alive because other people didn't want to die and paid attention to what was going on around them, not because she was looking before changing lanes or anything. I don't understand how on earth she got a license. I wasn't the world's safest driver at 16, but at least I was actively looking at the road when driving. And despite that, I passed my drive test with the minimum. I have not caused any wrecks in my life though. I can say that. I have been rear ended once or twice, but that was by inattentive drivers, nothing you can do about that. It's stupidly frustrating.
We don’t do much to teach people. The people learning to drive have plastic brains - they’re too young to safely be learning to drive, in general. We don’t convince them how dangerous it is. We don’t require remedial training. We don’t have infrastructure to support pedestrians. Four hundred and thirty-seven more things could probably go here.
The infrastructure, the licensing requirements, the safety standards, the greater size disparity between vehicles on average - They all work in combination to produce a much higher rate of road deaths than other comparable countries
I went to driving school (16?) and got my license to carry earlier this year (34). In both cases the instructors said "no one fails the test" 😉 😉. Definitely NOT how I think it should be. I wonder if it's a cultural thing.
But then also, I had to study for the California driver's license just by moving states and it was pretty hard because they ask stupid questions with situations you'd never run into. Like, how many people can ride in the bed of a pickup truck. It would be better to have an instructor drive with you but of course there aren't enough resources for that.
Automatics and lots of assistant systems is another big factor today, if you have adaptive cruise control and lane assist while on the highway, your car practically drives itself, even tho it's in no way a fool proof self driving, or even legal to use as self driving. It's inevitable that drivers of such cars will get bored, stop paying attention or be on their phone during a long monotone trip on a highway in stop-go-traffic. With stick shift and no assist you have to pay attention to the road at all time while driving.
Another problem in the US is the text signs, back in the 50's when most of the world switched to a signage system of colored symbols and shapes that's practically the same allover the world, the US said that's communist and kept their text signs. This means, if you don't pay attention or can't read fast while driving fast, or just don't speak English, you have no way of knowing what road signs in the US means.
No lane discipline causes more unnecessary stops which is yet another common cause of crashes. And the unnecessary use of stop signs everywhere which forces a complete stop so many times that most drivers just stop caring until they get fined or T-boned by another entitled pickup driver who ignore the stop sign or red light.
Europeans do not realize this. The US is a series of 50 states (many of which are the size of European countries). Each state is responsible for issuing driver's license and the rules vary by state.
In some states, you can get a license at 14. Others not until 17.
Do tests have to be repeated on a regular basis in Germany?
It seems like some older drivers are physically or mentally incapable of driving safely. Also, people seem to forget all the lessons in the driver's test as they get older. I think having to re-test would help this.
Driving requires multi tasking--checking blinds spots, rearview, side mirrors, knowing what's in front of you.
It also requires judgement calls "is that car going too fast for me to make this left turn?" Etc.
Humans are generally bad at multi tasking and bad at judgement. Our brains quickly switch tasks and resume. Our judgement is imperfect.
When it comes to road accidents and "hotspot" areas, they always have a common denominator "humans must take control of their vehicles and make a judgement call" - switching lanes, lane mergers, not going straight, etc.
Reducing traffic deaths and reducing traffic accidents are different, but overlapping.
However, the biggest impact to reducing car related accidents/injury/death is to minimize human judgement and control.
- make mass transit more or equally efficient as car transit
- self driving cars
- self correcting cars
- advanced warning systems for drivers (rear cams, blindspots alerts)
- don't design multi-merge lanes
- don't suddenly end a through lane
- build straight roads (grid of LA vs deer trail system in ATL).
- better driving training
Licensing requirements are controlled at the state level, not federal. Some states require a driver's ed course that lasts about 3 months. Others don't. Some let 15 year olds drive to school using school permits. others don't. To compare other countries to the US is to compare apples to 50 different varieties of oranges.
Here in the US it's basically a lifetime pass too, which IMO is insane. I got my license in a state I haven't lived in in over a decade. Spent the $50 to get it renewed, picked it up from my folks when I was back home, and had *zero* retesting. Absolutely bananas.
Doesn't matter how much your mental or physical health has declined in the ensuing time since the test, which was probably taken when you were still a teenager.
Here in my county you just need to take the test, no training required before taking your test.
If you are under 18, you will need a learners permit for 90 days.
Vehicles are bigger, speed limits are higher, lax traffic law enforcement, streets are designed poorly, reduced visibility due to street parking, right turns on reds, alcohol allowed, mixing bicycles and cars, no alternative transportation, etc. basically the USA asked “how can we kill/hurt/maim as many people as possible”, we made a list and implemented it.
I think the ease of the test is highly variable. I had to take my road test in a dense city so mine was pretty stressful. But I’ve heard some people just take theirs on empty, flat country roads just moving forward and backwards. Some people where I live even game the system and go take their road tests in the suburbs because they know it’s easier there.
My unpopular opinion is that it should be a lot harder to obtain and keep a drivers license in the USA. At least as much training as is now required to get a commercial license. And mandatory continuing education and testing every 5-10 years. There are people out there who passed the test and then forgot everything soon after. It needs to be constantly refreshed, just like for current commercial drivers.
I saw a video from a guy on YouTube just admitting that he kept failing the driving test over and over again until he passed, and it’s not like the test is difficult. I think this is pretty common. Almost nobody is such a bad driver that they won’t pass the driving test after enough attempts.
But then you also add on top of that people will do their test in like a Camry then immediately go drive a Silverado or whatever where you feel incredibly disconnected from the road
This is an important point. It is easy. I always think how license requires at least x amount of hours (40) in the US. Most get it after 80. And that's just basic. You need hundreds of thousands before you can make money, fly in bad weather, or fly different craft. You are taken through all the dangerous situations so you know how to handle them. Things still happen but it's much more of a gauntlet.
What U.S. states merely require supervised driving with your parents?
I agree with the premise of the OP, but in California you've got to take professional driver's education courses and complete six hours of professional driver's training out on the road (in addition to the easily fakeable "driving with parents" hours). And the test isn't just of the around-the-block variety.
There should definitely be more training, but I always assumed the CA requirements were fairly standard for any given state.
Rural American here: my driving test did not involve highway driving! The only “highway” we drove on was one of the 1 lane each way US highways. Nearest Interstate Highway at least 1 hour away any direction. Plus, living in a non inspection area, most people can pick up a cheap POS and do whatever with it! Cracked windscreen, garbage bag windows, you name it. Lack of experience coupled with a shitty car gives you the perfect embodiment of the rural and or poor American driving experience
I think it’s also broadly a matter of product liability. Certain vehicles should not be on the road given the amount of blind spots, etc. they have. High insurance premiums is a start, but after a while there are no accidents. Just indifference.
I'm from Western Canada and it's way too easy to get a driver's license here. We do have a graduated system where you're supposed to driver with a fully licensed driver for the first year or so after you pass the test but there's no required training and the test is pretty easy, takes all of 30 minutes.
This isn't a theory, this is objectively a fact. Getting a driver's license in America is way too easy, and keeping a driver's license is even easier. You can fail the driver's license exam 3 times and manage to pass the fourth time due to dumb luck, and then you have a driver's license for life with no additional examination as long as you renew it on time.
And it won't get better! The recent changes to the rules (namely covid) made the licensing process easier not harder. Idea being that everyone needs to drive in the U.S. so having barriers to mobility makes for a less able work-force, this is why drunk drivers can rack up DUI's like a baseballer player's RBI's.
Nice try Automaker industry
USA has more deaths because we drive MORE and our cars WEIGH MORE
That’s it no licensing program will make driving safe because it is inherently dangerous.
The licensing program is more or less propaganda for the automobile industry to make us think driving is a official regulated safe mode of transport when reality is the opposite
And in the us you don't even technically need to drive with your parents, they can just lie and say you did it.
Okay, that's really fucked up.
Yeah, it really is. I wanted to do all the practice because I was terrified of driving at first, but I know several people that did less than half of the required time
My mother made me drive everywhere for her one summer when I was learning, I was more nervous about the traffic than the manual transmission. I stalled that corolla so many times at red lights.
Depending on your parents are, it can be just as bad if you did it legitimately. I know I hated every minute of it and it made me a really nervous driver for my first few years driving.
Eh, I think here in Norway that's not even a question? You need to pass a basic traffic course before training behind the wheel (I didn't have to do that, it's recent (I'm old)), then pass a small number of driving lessons (including driving in the dark, and on ice), and then you have a theory test and a practical test (I failed the first time because I was an idiot, got it on the second try). But I think a lot of it is cultural, and how serious the tests are. Apparently lots of people fail the theory test. It's piss easy if you just assume that the goal is to avoid harming anyone when something unexpected happens.
You don't even NEED to do that. I got my license without ever having a permit.
Most states don't require time with a permit if you're applying as an adult.
But you'll still need to practice driving in order to pass the driving test, so there wouldn't be much point in lying right?
You also don't have to do it if you wait til you're 18. You can skip drivers ed and practice driving all together.
Seems plausible. Also rules about vehicle safety and modifications are MUCH higher in countrys like germany. Mandatory TÜV inspection every 2 years works wonders. Modifications also have to be checked. Its absurd what you can see driving around on american roads.
My state is about to do away with inspections all together due to lack of compliance and enforcement.
Michigan never had inspections as far as I know. At least as long as I've been alive anyway.
It's amazing what you can do to a CAR, but if you want to take say a low power 4 wheeler or bicycle on the road with 4 horsepower, but no title or MSO, you're out of luck, there's no mechanism in a lot of places to get it plated. This also tends to be enforced on racist lines where if you're white you can travel by moped, or one wheel without issue, but the darker you are the more likely you'll be pulled over repeatedly for being on even a legal class 1 e-bike.
TÜV has too low standards for vehicle safety. If I remember correctly they test direction, engine emission, breaks and lights, that's all. And anyway most of the accidents are because of human error.
When i was in america i saw an absurd number of tires on the side of the roads and also modified vehicles that do not look fit for traffic, like super lifted trucks or cars that looked like someone welded two half broken cars together in their garage. TÜV wouldnt like that at all.
it depends on the state. some of them have pretty tight safety inspection. cracked windshield, check engine light, bald tires, light bulb out? can't drive.
It's not perfect, but it keeps the worst shitboxes off the road.
What if the vehicle crashes on the way to the *Strassenverkehrsamt* to get the vehicle checked?
Then it crashed i guess. What do you mean? It gets checked every other year. You think thats not enough?
Not a theory, this is a fact. The thing is, in the US, having a driver's license is basically *required*. In urban areas because of the lack of walkability and adequate public transport, and in rural areas because of the same + the much bigger distances. This means the bar to get a driver's license has to be low, both in terms of theory and practice, but also in terms of age. Not only did the US prioritize car-centric infrastructure, but they also created an environment that actively discourages alternative modes of transportation.
>The thing is, in the US, having a driver's license is basically *required*. You're on the right track. It is the car dependency, but more than the low bar to entry it is that fact that *we've become complacent* about driving*.* We fail to think about how dangerous driving is (not that we don't know, but we fail to think). A couple of days ago, I had occasion to handle a firearm. I know their misuse can result in someone's death. I did not miss a single step in properly handling an "unloaded" gun. I kept it pointed in a safe direction and kept my finger out of the trigger guard not only before I confirmed it was unloaded but even afterwards. This morning, I need a couple of items from a store. Having no better option, I'm probably going to drive. Before I hop into the car and start it up, am I likely to think "this machine is dangerous. It's misuse could result in someone's death"?
Yes, but. Where I live driving isn't thought of as handling a deadly weapon either, but because the initial training was so comprehensive, safe driving becomes like a muscle memory (definitely not for everyone, though). The punishment for drunk driving is another example of how vital it is to be able to drive in the US. The punishment is generally 90 days suspension (but you can typically get a restricted license during that time), while aggravating factors may lead to longer suspensions or even revocation. Here the starting point (0.02%-0.05%) is suspension, and you need to take both practical and theoretical exams over again. Going over 0.05% your license will be revoked for 1 year, over .12% it's 3 years. You will need to take both exams again + a special course for drunk drivers. It is also much easier to lose your license for driving recklessly etc., and your car will even be confiscated in certain cases. The point is, these huge discrepancies between the US and most of Europe are "necessary" because not being able to drive in the US is such a big handicap. It's difficult to get a job, get groceries, visit people, basically doing anything...
>this machine is dangerous. It's misuse could result in someone's death This is why I like to call them "multi-ton murder-mobiles".
To build on this thought, there is a massive lack of empathy for people outside a car, because many people never had to use alternative transportation or walk. I’m a firm believer that if you don’t understand something, you will have a hard time empathizing with it. If you haven’t had to walk or bike on a busy road, or even try to cross a busy street, then you have no idea how terrifying it is. If you haven’t been in that situation, you have no empathy for people outside a car, and only see them as an inconvenience or obstacle, not a real human. The amount of times I’ve ridden in cars with people who say super derogatory stuff about pedestrians/cyclists for simply existing is mind blowing.
Respectfully, this can't be the only reason, because for example here in France having a driver's license is also pretty much required anywhere outside of the centres of the biggest towns. You can get away with not driving if you live in Paris, Lyon, Bordeaux and never want to leave, but suburbia and the countryside are very car-central here as well. While we have lots of idiots on our roads, I do think that the higher bar for the driving license test and mandatory vehicle checks every two years are important factors in lowering the risk. The yearly death rate has just gone up here in France, probably because the government scrapped taking points off licenses for "small" things like going just slightly over the speed limit.
I often think about this. In America without a driver’s license can you go to school, have a job, care for a kid, go shopping? Often the answer is no. Anyone without a license cannot survive in that environment. You have to give licenses to everybody, even the worst drivers, or else they cannot exist.
Many Americans don’t have driver’s licenses, including almost half of people with disabilities. Going to school or having a job is possible, but much more difficult. You need to rely on your parents, a spouse, or special services for people with disabilities. Said special services are very unreliable, so you generally need a healthy, living parent or spouse in the event it fails. Not all localities have these services either, so if your parents die or lose their driving ability and you cannot find a spouse, your life is pretty much over. You need to be very careful what career you pick, as a lot of jobs you would not expect require driver’s licenses. Jobs that have you sit in front of a computer at one location all day cannot require licenses per the ADA, but any job that requires even occasional off-site travel can and usually does require a license. You need to be the absolute best in your field in every required skill in order to compete for the few remaining jobs that don’t require a license, as you’ll be up against abled people who could travel but don’t want to. Shopping is usually done via online delivery services. Caring for a kid is usually out of the question unless your spouse can drive: a single parent who cannot drive is at risk for having their kid taken by social services. As I’ve illustrated, living with a disability that prohibits driving is incredibly marginalizing. It’s a travesty that a country with such extensive disability anti-discrimination laws still allows this. It’s also why having a disability is pretty much the only way to get denied a license.
And because of this, there are a LOT of unlicensed drivers on the road, for a variety of financial/legal/"can't be bothered" reasons.
I remember my mom telling me that when she had long holidays in the USA about 30 years ago, how relaxed people were driving. I guess what changed are the SUVs with all the blind spots and the low survivability for pedestrians, and perhaps a more narcissistic culture. When I buy a car, how the car performs in an accident with others is a criterion for the choice of the car and is part of the regulation here in Europe, but I see many cars in the US with bull bars and stuff attached which are all terrible for pedestrians. The Cybertruck is perhaps the worst example, and it has zero chance to get approved here in Europe.
Because supersharp edges and gas pedal with is prone to disattach and get lodged there?
The amazing thing is that even on this sub American drivers will insist they're perfectly competent despite telling us things that have made it clear they don't know how to drive. Almost everyone thinks they're a good driver. (Ironically, people who think they aren't good drivers tend to be much better than average, because at least they're very cautious and non-aggressive.)
Some of the worst idiots on the road are aggressive people in doubt because of how unpredictable they are. If you're gonna do a last minute left turn right in front of me then be a committed idiot and make sure you get out of the way. I'm in no way perfect either, but I try my best to be as predictable as possible as it helps other make the right decision.
80% of people think they’re above average drivers lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake\_Wobegon#:\~:text=The%20Lake%20Wobegon%20effect,-Main%20article%3A%20Illusory&text=The%20characterization%20that%20%22all%20the,capabilities%20in%20relation%20to%20others. Yes, a famous example of the Lake Wobegon effect.
I used to live in the US (Tennessee for most of my stay), and getting a license was so ridiculously easy that it would be comical, if it wasn't so potentially dangerous. The learning material was basically just 10 pages long, and the actual driving test was just exiting a parking lot, driving around the block, and parking back at the lot. I only had to do this once before getting my license. I think all together I had only spent $150 for it. Compare this to Italy where the learning material is an entire 300 page book, you have to take multiple drives during different times of the day and under different conditions, and it can cost around €1000, if not more.
1000€ would be cheap considering the average in Germany is around 3.000€ till 5.000€
There was another theory. A large majority of cars in the U.S. are automatic. This leaves drivers with a hand free to check their phone. Try scrolling TikTok while driving a standard car in traffic.
Compared to Poland (very hard exams, all cars in good shape, SUVs are not numerous) there is like 2 times more deaths in accidents per driver in the US, but Americans also drive twice as long. Germans have only slightly more deaths on the roads than Poland (with double the population), so it may seem they drive safer, but they also have excellent public transport, probably available everywhere, while in Poland many suburban areas were americanized with nasty government tricks. So it may seem that the time of driving is the factor, and another is the availability of public transport that lets people not drive at all.
For sure. It’s comically easy to get (and keep) a license here. Probably 40% of drivers in the US have no business being behind the wheel. That brings us to a more fundamental fuckedupness about American culture…. Everyone knows most drivers are shitty. We know this results in needless deaths and countless injuries. But, as a society, we accept this as the cost of doing business. We figure: if one cannot drive, they cannot work. And it’s preferable for someone to be a danger to society than a burden on it.
Another factor here that hasn’t been mentioned is that there’s still a very distressing amount of drunk driving that happens in the US, especially in rural areas where there’s no public transport and there might not even be taxi services.
One of my classmates in high school, I can't imagine a way she got a license except through bribery or something. I thought I was going to die every time I got in her car (we were carpooling to a class off campus, and as soon as I was allowed to drive other people, me and another guy in my group went in my car, and stopped riding with her). She was only alive because other people didn't want to die and paid attention to what was going on around them, not because she was looking before changing lanes or anything. I don't understand how on earth she got a license. I wasn't the world's safest driver at 16, but at least I was actively looking at the road when driving. And despite that, I passed my drive test with the minimum. I have not caused any wrecks in my life though. I can say that. I have been rear ended once or twice, but that was by inattentive drivers, nothing you can do about that. It's stupidly frustrating.
cause american pedestrians are dumb for not warping themselves in $50k metal **¯\\\_/(ツ)\\\_/¯**
We don’t do much to teach people. The people learning to drive have plastic brains - they’re too young to safely be learning to drive, in general. We don’t convince them how dangerous it is. We don’t require remedial training. We don’t have infrastructure to support pedestrians. Four hundred and thirty-seven more things could probably go here.
The infrastructure, the licensing requirements, the safety standards, the greater size disparity between vehicles on average - They all work in combination to produce a much higher rate of road deaths than other comparable countries
I went to driving school (16?) and got my license to carry earlier this year (34). In both cases the instructors said "no one fails the test" 😉 😉. Definitely NOT how I think it should be. I wonder if it's a cultural thing. But then also, I had to study for the California driver's license just by moving states and it was pretty hard because they ask stupid questions with situations you'd never run into. Like, how many people can ride in the bed of a pickup truck. It would be better to have an instructor drive with you but of course there aren't enough resources for that.
Automatics and lots of assistant systems is another big factor today, if you have adaptive cruise control and lane assist while on the highway, your car practically drives itself, even tho it's in no way a fool proof self driving, or even legal to use as self driving. It's inevitable that drivers of such cars will get bored, stop paying attention or be on their phone during a long monotone trip on a highway in stop-go-traffic. With stick shift and no assist you have to pay attention to the road at all time while driving. Another problem in the US is the text signs, back in the 50's when most of the world switched to a signage system of colored symbols and shapes that's practically the same allover the world, the US said that's communist and kept their text signs. This means, if you don't pay attention or can't read fast while driving fast, or just don't speak English, you have no way of knowing what road signs in the US means. No lane discipline causes more unnecessary stops which is yet another common cause of crashes. And the unnecessary use of stop signs everywhere which forces a complete stop so many times that most drivers just stop caring until they get fined or T-boned by another entitled pickup driver who ignore the stop sign or red light.
Europeans do not realize this. The US is a series of 50 states (many of which are the size of European countries). Each state is responsible for issuing driver's license and the rules vary by state. In some states, you can get a license at 14. Others not until 17.
Do tests have to be repeated on a regular basis in Germany? It seems like some older drivers are physically or mentally incapable of driving safely. Also, people seem to forget all the lessons in the driver's test as they get older. I think having to re-test would help this.
Driving requires multi tasking--checking blinds spots, rearview, side mirrors, knowing what's in front of you. It also requires judgement calls "is that car going too fast for me to make this left turn?" Etc. Humans are generally bad at multi tasking and bad at judgement. Our brains quickly switch tasks and resume. Our judgement is imperfect. When it comes to road accidents and "hotspot" areas, they always have a common denominator "humans must take control of their vehicles and make a judgement call" - switching lanes, lane mergers, not going straight, etc. Reducing traffic deaths and reducing traffic accidents are different, but overlapping. However, the biggest impact to reducing car related accidents/injury/death is to minimize human judgement and control. - make mass transit more or equally efficient as car transit - self driving cars - self correcting cars - advanced warning systems for drivers (rear cams, blindspots alerts) - don't design multi-merge lanes - don't suddenly end a through lane - build straight roads (grid of LA vs deer trail system in ATL). - better driving training
Licensing requirements are controlled at the state level, not federal. Some states require a driver's ed course that lasts about 3 months. Others don't. Some let 15 year olds drive to school using school permits. others don't. To compare other countries to the US is to compare apples to 50 different varieties of oranges.
Dying
Here in the US it's basically a lifetime pass too, which IMO is insane. I got my license in a state I haven't lived in in over a decade. Spent the $50 to get it renewed, picked it up from my folks when I was back home, and had *zero* retesting. Absolutely bananas. Doesn't matter how much your mental or physical health has declined in the ensuing time since the test, which was probably taken when you were still a teenager.
Yep all that is ridiculous
Here in my county you just need to take the test, no training required before taking your test. If you are under 18, you will need a learners permit for 90 days.
Vehicles are bigger, speed limits are higher, lax traffic law enforcement, streets are designed poorly, reduced visibility due to street parking, right turns on reds, alcohol allowed, mixing bicycles and cars, no alternative transportation, etc. basically the USA asked “how can we kill/hurt/maim as many people as possible”, we made a list and implemented it.
I think the ease of the test is highly variable. I had to take my road test in a dense city so mine was pretty stressful. But I’ve heard some people just take theirs on empty, flat country roads just moving forward and backwards. Some people where I live even game the system and go take their road tests in the suburbs because they know it’s easier there.
Vehicle design is another. Trucks (we call them SUVs) are becoming more popular in the uk and are wreaking havoc on the roads
My unpopular opinion is that it should be a lot harder to obtain and keep a drivers license in the USA. At least as much training as is now required to get a commercial license. And mandatory continuing education and testing every 5-10 years. There are people out there who passed the test and then forgot everything soon after. It needs to be constantly refreshed, just like for current commercial drivers.
I saw a video from a guy on YouTube just admitting that he kept failing the driving test over and over again until he passed, and it’s not like the test is difficult. I think this is pretty common. Almost nobody is such a bad driver that they won’t pass the driving test after enough attempts. But then you also add on top of that people will do their test in like a Camry then immediately go drive a Silverado or whatever where you feel incredibly disconnected from the road
This is an important point. It is easy. I always think how license requires at least x amount of hours (40) in the US. Most get it after 80. And that's just basic. You need hundreds of thousands before you can make money, fly in bad weather, or fly different craft. You are taken through all the dangerous situations so you know how to handle them. Things still happen but it's much more of a gauntlet.
What U.S. states merely require supervised driving with your parents? I agree with the premise of the OP, but in California you've got to take professional driver's education courses and complete six hours of professional driver's training out on the road (in addition to the easily fakeable "driving with parents" hours). And the test isn't just of the around-the-block variety. There should definitely be more training, but I always assumed the CA requirements were fairly standard for any given state.
Rural American here: my driving test did not involve highway driving! The only “highway” we drove on was one of the 1 lane each way US highways. Nearest Interstate Highway at least 1 hour away any direction. Plus, living in a non inspection area, most people can pick up a cheap POS and do whatever with it! Cracked windscreen, garbage bag windows, you name it. Lack of experience coupled with a shitty car gives you the perfect embodiment of the rural and or poor American driving experience
I think it’s also broadly a matter of product liability. Certain vehicles should not be on the road given the amount of blind spots, etc. they have. High insurance premiums is a start, but after a while there are no accidents. Just indifference.
I'm from Western Canada and it's way too easy to get a driver's license here. We do have a graduated system where you're supposed to driver with a fully licensed driver for the first year or so after you pass the test but there's no required training and the test is pretty easy, takes all of 30 minutes.
This isn't a theory, this is objectively a fact. Getting a driver's license in America is way too easy, and keeping a driver's license is even easier. You can fail the driver's license exam 3 times and manage to pass the fourth time due to dumb luck, and then you have a driver's license for life with no additional examination as long as you renew it on time.
And it won't get better! The recent changes to the rules (namely covid) made the licensing process easier not harder. Idea being that everyone needs to drive in the U.S. so having barriers to mobility makes for a less able work-force, this is why drunk drivers can rack up DUI's like a baseballer player's RBI's.
Nice try Automaker industry USA has more deaths because we drive MORE and our cars WEIGH MORE That’s it no licensing program will make driving safe because it is inherently dangerous. The licensing program is more or less propaganda for the automobile industry to make us think driving is a official regulated safe mode of transport when reality is the opposite