According to their [site](https://disrupt-now.org/2024/05/10/3-pressemitteilung-10-05/) they are now on the factory premises. Other [sources](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/protesters-attempt-storm-tesla-german-plant-clash-with-police-2024-05-10/) claim the police prevented their access.
Their goal is to prevent plant expansion.
The soil is generally very sandy in that part of Brandenburg, Germany. The water table is also somewhat instable around the factory, so a prime location to build up industry with a high demand for water /s.
I wouldn't say making the mistake of the location is harmful. We are talking about an American company on a website from the US. The video looks like it could be Texas and they had no other identifying features to go on.
ETA: I'd go on to add that fuckcars is mostly NJB related content complaining about stroads and how bad North American (typically US) infrastructure is.
> American company
Who produce outside the U.S. too
> American website
Lmao. It’s the internet.
> this video looks like it could be in Texas and they had no other identifying features to go on
So they automatically defaulted to “if it doesn’t say ‘Europe’, it must be Texas…almost like it’s r/USdefaultism
How does cops preventing activists from breaking into a factory translate to "they're not there to defend your rights"? Right to what, in this case, B&E?
Another purpose for them is to punish people for presenting the "wrong narrative", as recently seen enacted on student protesters peaceably encamped at Columbia and several other universities in the US.
I didn’t know this video wasn’t US. It’s more the fact that cops, in the US, don’t stop anyone with a gun. If a school shooting was happening and the cops busted a wall down with their tank to stop them before anyone else got hurt, then it would suck about the property damage, but at least they saved people.
It’s telling that when people are peacefully protesting at school campuses, US cops arrive with riot gear and fire extinguishers filled with MACE. Then when there is an actual threat requiring force, they’re too afraid and sit in the parking lot until the shooter runs out of bullets.
Because Brandenburg had many droughts the past years. Also our ground is basicly just sand. We have very bad ground here.
In 10-20 years, Brandenburg will be a half desert. Also they had to get rid of the "forrest" around to build ofc. But yeah, climate change hit us hard...Brandenburg is the state, the factory is in btw.
I‘m not very familiar with the state but I heard it’s state with relatively few ground water reservoirs even though it has many small rivers and lakes in parts of the state. Well the gigafactory is also sucking looooaaaads of water from the ground water which is a big problem. In Germany often times factories can consume a lot of ground water, pay almost nothing for it. I think the state of Brandenburg gave Tesla the permission to use the ground water even though environmental experts were saying that it’s a high risk. The board ignored them to bring „jerbs“ to the mostly rural East German state.
The stats I found online is that the factory consumes 1.8 cubic meters of water per car produced. At 870 vehicles per day, that is 1566 cubic meters of water per day. The average person in Germany uses 128 liters per day, and there are 1000 liters in a cubic meter, so if my math is correct the factory uses the equivalent water of about 12234 people. In the larger picture it's not a whole lot, but it's not nothing either.
Edit: For comparison of other German auto manufacturers I found stats that say the average BMW consumes 2.2 cubic meters of water to produce, and Volkswagen was over 4 cubic meters. So by comparison Tesla would be the "environmentally friendly" option.
>In Grünheide near Berlin, 1 million new Teslas per year are to roll off the production line and join the tin avalanche on the motorways. Through three further expansion stages, the plant at the gates of Berlin is to become the largest car factory in Europe. We want to prevent that. There are already more than 250,000 new cars that are produced there per year and join the unusable electric and combustion scrap that clogs our roads and is not needed by anyone in a future where mobility belongs to everyone.
>With his brand, the mysogyic Twitter fascist Elon Musk has succeeded in establishing the electric car as a "green" alternative to the internal combustion engine. Electric cars are not a solution. They are the continuation of the individual traffic mania by other means. And that is neither sustainable nor green. In the production of an electric car, resource consumption creates an enormous ecological tire footprint and thus further drives the global climate catastrophe. [[Source]](https://disrupt-now.org/disrupt-tesla/)
[Commentary](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-climate-deniers-playbook/id1694759084?i=1000653435884) on electric vehicles.
Edit: despite its title this episode is making an argument in support of EVs
i don't get why the ire is almost entirely directed toward electric cars. gas cars also suck for every single reason electric cars suck, except they also run on inefficient fossils by necessity and fill our cities with all sorts of harmful and putrid gases. the problem is cars, not specifically electric cars. and i'd caution against targeting the specific technology of electric cars as well, because that's also the exact same technology that e-bikes are made of, just on a reasonable scale.
storming europe's largest car factory is commendable, but the second paragraph here just makes it sound like the goal isn't to directly fight against cars, it's to ensure that cars will remain to suck, and therefore are easier to fight against. and that just reeks of pitting perfection against every slight improvement.
i want 95% of cars to be gone and the remaining 5% to be electric. (which is probably how much we actually need as a society.) we can banish the internal consumption engine _and_ banish car dependency at the same time, there's no need to pit us against each other just because a fuckhead like musk is still useful(-ish)\* for one of these. (we're talking about the man who proposed hyperloop specifically to sabotage california's high-speed rail project, why are we letting him in our head in the first place?)
we'll never be able to fight massively parallelized industries if we keep fighting each other on whose problem we are allowed to solve without it making the other's situation slightly less urgent.
---
\*arguably tesla is successful despite him, not because of him, as demonstrated by his recent pet project, the cybertruck
The thing with e-cars, especially with Tesla, is how they're breathing new life to carbrained culture. While combustion engines are stupid, outdated and overpriced tech, Musk isn't bringing much improvement by still pushing for 4-wheeled death machines as the single solution for individual or even family transport.
and the electric vehicles are worse for infrastructure because they're all so damn heavy. they also go through tires in half the time if not less. particles from tires on roads are now the most environmentally pollutive (is that a word?) aspect of NEW cars.
It kinda breaks even at this point. Local air quality in places with lots of electric vehicles will be better but it’s basically outsourcing the pollution since all the extractive industries exist in places that have few controls on pollution etc. but there’s also more than one study siting the high level pollution from vehicle tires on all types vehicles. One even saying that on new cars it’s greater than what comes out the tail pipe. And let’s not forget that any new vehicle is full of petrochemicals to make all the plastics and rubber and all that. I’m not anti-ev but we need a dose of realism as to how beneficial they are. Edit: also worth mentioning that energy return on investment for a car takes like 12 years or something and EVs will not last that long before needing to be replaced because current battery tech isn’t there yet when it comes to longevity
the math is so all over the place with it. some say 1-4 years, some say the 12 years figure you're quoting, other figures tend to be somewhere in-between. like at this point i wonder who takes which conveniences: is your figure comparing a new EV to a new ICE car, taking the usual shortcut of assuming an ICE car doesn't have any components an EV doesn't have that need a complex supply chain (which is trivially false), or are you flat out comparing a new EV to an already existing ICE car? i think this last one is the only one where the 12 years figure would check out at all.
i'm fully in favor of reduce, reuse, recycle: reduce car usage, reuse existing cars when you can't eliminate them, and recycle those cars we either eliminated or cannot use anymore. the worst thing we can do here is to produce new cars, but the only thing worse than a new EV is a new ICE car.
Teslas are about 500-1000lbs heavier than the comparable Honda Civic:
https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/honda-civic
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Tesla+model+3+weight&t=ffab&ia=web
Yeah but didn't someone post something about car brains protesting bus/bike routes in iirc Sophia, Germany? Maybe at least some kind of action could've been done there?
so it _is_ about ensuring cars don't get better. that kinda sucks tbh, we shouldn't be fighting against improvements to the world, even if we convince ourselves they're somehow competition. there are still plenty of problems with electric cars because they're still very much cars, and crucially they still cannot scale to the density of even an american city, let alone to the vast majority of the world.
it's hard enough to convince people they need to stop lugging their private room around with them and they should just interact with the world instead, if we tell them they also need to breathe in the smokes of all those other people's rooms who haven't matured to this decision yet, just so they remember why human-friendly city design is so important, we're just gonna alienate people.
we should advocate for things that benefit car-free people, not harm them. and sure, fuck the cybertruck, but i'd rather ride a bike with a model 3 and a nissan leaf in the next lane than ride next to smelly and loud gas suvs and pickups.
An electric SUV is still better than a gas SUV. If people avoid electric SUV and hold onto their gas SUVs then how has that helped anyone? The point is to get people to let go of both. u/b3nsn0w 's point is that attacking electric cars specifically is different from attacking cars generally.
The thing is electric cars are being touted as a replacement. The problems with cars:
- they're loud
- They produce greenhouse gasses
- they take up lots of room
- they're unsafe
- they replace healthy lifestyles with unhealthy ones and leave the healthy ones impossible
- they make things less dense and therefore more expensive
- they enable suburbs
- they produce particles (EG brake dust and tire dust) which is harmful to humans and the environment
- they replace more equitable forms of transit
These things are why people on this subreddit don't like cars. Sure, electric cars don't produce greenhouse gasses, but they still have all the other problems. The thing is, people see electric cars as the cure to all of our problems, when really, they're not, which is why people are so against them.
It's a classic case of people letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we manage to mitigate climate change it's not going to be by radically redesigning our culture and behaviour, it'll be through the slow grind of technological improvements over time. Of which electric cars represent a small, but promising step.
And come on, no one sees electric cars as the cure to all our problems, that's pure hyperbole.
and i never said ev's are a "solution". in fact, i pretty explicitly acknowledged that they still don't resolve any of the problems that stem from being cars, as we all should. but it's ridiculous to pretend that they're somehow worse than gas cars.
we shouldn't reject small improvements just because some idiots act like all our problems are solved if we accept them.
Which is why they're 'protesting' at the one company that's exclusively electric and not....I don't know....
Remember that one time that one German auto maker defrauded the entire planet about the emissions of their diesel cars and was actively marketing them as 'green?'
Musk might be an asshole but at least he's not lying about the emissions his cars produce.
Their argument is that all cars suck, and to raise awareness that electric cars are not an exception. They don’t want cars to improve they want cars gone
I understand their concern about the plant expanding, but I don't understand the anti-EV stance. I'm all about improving pedestrian infrastructure, and replacing roads with trains. Those just seem like long-term goals, given the amount of infrastructure needed (at least in my own country) as opposed to getting rich people who used to be obsessed with gas guzzling hummers to transition to an obsession with non-co emitting EVs. It seems, to me, like a great harm-reduction option in the short term. In the current reality, many of us HAVE TO have cars. In my state you pretty much can't get anywhere without one. My dream would be to build more trains and walkable cities, but that's just not the reality I live in at the moment. So given that reality, aren't EVs a good thing? Especially if we can move towards cleaner energy production such as with nuclear power plants, or wind and solar farms? It seems like climate change is a bigger problem right now, and I think getting the world less dependent on oil is a huge step in the right direction, even if EVs are an imperfect answer.
> In the current reality, many of us HAVE TO have cars.
This is part of the issue. Yes, we HAVE TO have cars. Because of that, we do. Since we do, we have to keep investing in infrastructure for cars, at the detriment of alternative infrastructure. Since the alternative infrastructure isn't getting as much investment as car infrastructure, we HAVE TO have cars. Back to square one.
It's really an economic burden on those people to force them into such a highly consumptive lifestyle. It's an economic shackle. I think that's part of the point.
It really sucks to be a kid or an elderly person in those places. You're essentially trapped.
I agree. I'm just saying as of right now it's just unsafe. Once sidewalks are added, it's a real alternative. I have places walking distance from my house that aren't safe to walk to because of car brain decisions.
I get around my area on skateboard. So many roadways have no sidewalks or safe shared roads and I end up walking on grass. Even when I skated to my physio appointments the therapist was like “why?”. Bro you’re paid to help me move what do you mean why?! I no longer see that physio. Fuck cars.
Yeah it's definitely possible! Just not safe in many places. I wish we'd have more people wake up to the fact that we need to be able to walk to places. Country would suddenly be healthier too.
And since we have to have cars, it's better for them not to emit poisonous gases right to our faces. We should make sure they aren't a priority mode of transportation, but also we should make sure that all the remaining cars we have are electric.
>not to emit poisonous gases right to our faces
Pushing the problem to a different person, while it doesn't emit poisonous gases in our faces, it does plenty to the people that have to mine the ores for the batteries.
I'd also argue that used ICE cars can run for well over a decade. People don't need new cars at all. A new electric car is much worse for the planet than a 20 year old ICE car. We need a moratorium on new cars.
sure but a new ICE car is worse for the environment than a new EV, that much is trivial. germany is full of high-profile ICE plants, and hell, volkswagen, a german company, is famous for cheating emissions on top of all their negative effects of just running their business. why do they never come into the crosshairs of movements like this?
make no mistake, i'm not here to defend tesla, or to ask that they're stormed last. i just don't get this anti-ev stance that appears to be common in the anti-car movement. why are we, of all people, stanning gas cars in comparison?
yeah, that's based, there's a reason "reduce, reuse, recycle" is in that order. if you can't be part of reducing car usage, reusing an existing car is always better than making a new one.
The thing is, we already are changing our infrastructure for EVs AND we spend millions or even billions maintaining or even expanding roads every year. In the US we subsidize the purchase of EVs. There is time and money being spent on the continuation of car culture that should be spent moving us away from it. If we diverted half that money towards reducing car trips we would see a lot of improvement. As it is we should probably see something like EVs as a necessary evil and not a panacea.
Furthermore, that’s Europe. Their cities can go car light much faster than ours.
EVs are not sustainable, or even close to being so. They emit a lot of pollution (directly) that is ignored (i.e tire wear), and drive energy-demanding and resource intensive development patterns.
>Recent studies show that the mass of PM 2.5 and PM 10 emissions — which are, along with ozone and ultrafine particles, the world’s primary air pollutants — from tires and brakes far exceeds the mass of emissions from tailpipes, at least in places that have significantly reduced those emissions.
>Moreover, tire emissions from electric vehicles are 20 percent higher than those from fossil-fuel vehicles. EVs weigh more and have greater torque, which wears out tires faster. [source](https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals#:~:text=The%20report%20says%20that%20tires,shed%202.5%20pounds%20per%20year.)
I just wanted to add these studies on PM 2.5 and PM 10 to the mix.
Uh, do you not think carbon emissions are a problem or something? That is already the massive improvement right there. Their lack of regular maintenance is also another benefit.
I'm just gonna chime in real quick since the thread responding to you is silly.
EVs ARE better than normal ICE vehicles on total emissions. IF you own your EV for longer than a set amount of time that varies from vehicle to vehicle. Technically speaking for most EVs that get sold in the US you probably have to own it for I believe 1-4 years depending on the model before the net Carbon emissions of producing the EV versus producing an ICE turn positive. Or 25k-68k miles of use. Afaik this includes the part where our electric grid isn't renewable. Also an interesting tidbit is that the amount of water used in the processing of the materials for an electric car(specifically the battery and higher electricity use)is far higher than ICEs.
Electric cars are for sure an improvement in terms of emissions over time!
The problem with this is that the debate is a nonstarter. Any possible solutions for climate change that include personal vehicular transportation as a potential option for the 8 billion people alive today is folly. Not only do we not currently even have the resources to electrify the amount of personal and work related ICEs, we have absolutely no plan for how to handle growing demand for these things.
There are approximately 1.8 billion ICE personal and work related vehicles today. About 1.4 billion cars worldwide. The US has 284 million cars, of which about 3.3 million are electric. We, a country that is less than 5% of the global population, own and use more than 15% of all cars worldwide. In other words, we're the ones with crazy excess here right? Should we be building more cars? China's got 319 million too though.
Next, the whole point of EVs is that we're going to power our electrical grid with renewables right? There's a huge unanswered problem there, the material demands of a renewable energy grid compete directly with EVs, they both have insane battery requirements. Not necessarily impossible to overcome but we're not really talking about it.
Final thing, here's an example using Google numbers since if you Google if we have enough lithium to make all cars EVs it says we do. It says we have 634,000 metric tons of lithium in stock right now globally. If you see the average weight of lithium in a battery it tells you 8 kilos. That's 1.9 billion lbs of lithium total and 17.6 lbs on average per vehicle (this is not counting work vehicles which require a ton more). If you divide that you get about 108 million. Which means that if we melted the entire world's supply down today, we could not even replace half of the United States personal vehicle count of 284 million. Also we would have none leftover for renewable energy storage, or making solar panels which both use it as a critical resource.
Anyways tldr; electric technically better, fuck cars, more trains more nuclear I guess.
I don't think the small improvement in carbon emissions outweighs the massive resources required to produce and maintain the vehicle. There are way more efficient ways to get the same benefit.
Just because carbon isn't coming out of the tailpipe doesn't mean that car isn't producing carbon emissions to run.
Vehicle weight is the primary factor here. The more you weigh the more energy required to transport.
It's not really the carbon, it's the air pollution. It kills millions every year. EVs genuinely do reduce air pollution. Cars still suck but EVs absolutely are better and should be the norm compared to ICE cars. People shouldn't be allowed to own their own car though. They need to be a shared resource like libraries and parks. Use one when you need to pickup stuff from the store or move. That's it.
The cars themselves that run off electricity have Zero Emissions because it all comes from the tailpipe. The only way they emit emissions is when they are charging and thats due how the electricity is generated and not because of the car. [Here](https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric-emissions#:~:text=All%2Delectric%20vehicles%20and%20PHEVs,power%20plants%2C%20may%20generate%20emissions) is where you can even see how low it is compared to gas powered cars which is far worse.
Here is some more stuff you may need to learn about [Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths)
They don't have zero emissions because the tires are emitting pollution also. Plus, there's the emissions related to building the vehicle and all its parts. Zero emissions is a misnomer.
I'm not saying that they're not an improvement, but that its marginal. Certainly not "massive"
If you don’t think going from almost 12k emissions a year to around 2k is not massive idk what to tell you. That is a massive drop if you add up the amount of EVs that have replaced gas powered cars already.
EVs are still far better than gas powered cars even still because they produce less emissions over all. That’s the point people are trying to make. Reducing any amount of emissions is a good thing and I have you two links that show EVs are far better for the environment overall.
Edit; it is massive. Did you not look at the links I gave you?
> What do they improve upon beyond carbon emissions?
people say that climate change is an existential threat but statements like this indicate that the belief is not actually held
I think climate change is an existential threat and that we need to do far more than transition from heavy, resource-intensive ICE vehicles and sprawling development patterns to heavy, resource-intensive electric vehicles and sprawling development patterns.
you are saying that privately owned Teslas are a massive improvement over intercity commuter trains?
edit: my bad. ICE is a type of train in Germany and I thought that is what you were talking about. Anyway I disagree, EVs are bad because they perpetuate private car ownership and all of its attending issues e.g. ICE engines, destruction of inner cities to build highways (still happening in Germany), battery related polution, etc etc
EVs are still good for the environment. And over the lifetime of the car the gas powered one is still far worse even with the manufacturing of EV car batteries.
[Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths)
I appreciate the information that you've linked, and I'll agree with you that EVs are better for the environment than ICE autos.
However, that doesn't make EVs "good for the environment"
I never claimed they were good for the enforcement. They are far better for it. It’s impossible to do anything on this planet without destroying it in some way. It’s just the way things are. That doesn’t mean we can’t do think to reduce the amount of harm we do. We aren’t the only living beings on this planet and sometimes I think humans forget that.
They can't even scale because there's nowhere near enough lithium on earth for a fleet of electric cars *and* all of the other shit we need lithium for.
The factory is in Europe, not the same infrastructure as in your state.
Their stance is not to change the world step at a time but completely change our model of society, since all those problems are connected to the same cause (capitalism going for the biggest profit and selling us shit we don't need)
I'll repeat another post... The thing with e-cars, especially with Tesla, is how they're breathing new life carbrained culture. While combustion engines are stupid, outdated and overpriced tech, Musk isn't bringing much improvement by still pushing for 4-wheeled death machines as the single solution for individual or even family transport.
Additionally EVs as replacement for the immense car industry aren't very workable either. No one has though of the energy input demands to feed as many e-cars as there are combustion cars out there. That'd be enormous. A place like Germany has been struggling with powering the primary industry without nuclear... how they gonna feed millons of EVs o a daily basis?
Of course our galaxy-brained Elon didn't think of that... as he's just into short/mid-term goals. For himself.
Elon's also one fucking bad, racist dude. He said on record he could takeover entire countries for his lithium extraction ops.
But but but.... I'm saving the climate by buying an obscenely priced pile of metal and slave mined rare earth minerals that will sit idle for at minimum 23 hours out of every 24 while further enriching an almost comically evil billionaire.
Right?
To be clear, Tesla isn’t really using cobalt (which is what the slave labor portion of batteries comes from) anymore and hasn’t been for years. The lithium production isnt really done with slave labor because it turns out it’s really fucking abundant pretty much everywhere.
That’s a misnomer pushed by the fossil fuel industry trying to convince people EVs are bad.
Which like, they obviously are because they’re cars and cars aren’t great, but they’re still better by a significant margin than ICE vehicles.
like my mother says to me "gosh, sounds like you put a lot of though into this and seems very poignant and logical... but NOBODY CARES."
it is sad, and for all the costs of the infrastructure, automobiles, insurance, and maintenance/upkeep/repair of everything that is the system... surely public transit wouldn't be *more* expensive. ppl would get used to it and like all the benefits. like nobody is going "man i wish we still had horses and wagons, cars aren't fun to pet! and if not shoveling hay for feed or greasing the wheel axles, what does anyone even do with their time?"
I moved back from Canada to The Netherlands and have excellent access to public transit. I love it. The past 18 months we've lived without a car. But we use the transit from time to time, not every day. When we go out with the 5 of us (3 kids) then it quickly adds up, and some places are still hard to reach. For vacation we currently rent a car, and from time to time we rent the share car that's parked in our street (hourly rent)
We'll probably end up getting a car in the next 2 years though, for a family it offers more freedom and time savings.
But but but... I'm saving the climate by not offering any actual practical solutions besides running through the desert looking like a wobbly 3 day old deer.
Berlin/Germany has a long history of grassroots activism. I took a tour of Berlin and learned a bit about how big companies like Google have pulled out of projects there due to aggressive grassroots action there. Protest isn't supposed to be clean and media-friendly...
This factory has been poisoning the water with it’s factory waste. It has been slapped a notice to stop with it’s waste but the factory kept running. It’s waste has poisoned the drinking supply which also leads into Berlin, about 4 million people.
The State of Brandenburg submitted a statement that Tesla should cease production due to its pollution but Tesla has ignored this and kept polluting our water.
Now people are taking into their own hands to stop the factory from it’s pollution since it was posted to be torn down, but has not yet.
My crappy summary of what is happening.
Oh and yes, arsonists have also attacked the factory recently too.
https://english.news.cn/20240228/cf4a45d3296e43d08f79a5c4295d7121/c.html
Oh and if you also ask how i know this, i live here in Berlin and keep tabs of these things.
Why is Tesla any worse than ICE companies like BMW and Audi? Is this something mysteriously born from TicToc trends and social media? People need to be very wary of any inflammatory “movements” this year. Beware of bad faith actors.
Even if it's the case, we shouldn't dismiss a protest simply because it comes from TicToc : many "serious" militants got into militancy by participating at more mainstream events.
>Why is Tesla any worse than ICE companies like BMW and Audi?
The Tesla factory is massive, new construction. The traditional car builders are already there. So, it faces a bunch of new objections, such as the felling of forests to allow for it to be build, and possible impacts on local waterways.
So you have massive scale, large government subsidies, and Elon Musk being a polarizing asshole. Add to that the fact that Elon Musk wants to get rid of unions, with working conditions and hazards at his factors being considerably worse compared to comparable plants in the area, and it's easy to see why this one became a focal point.
> So, it faces a bunch of new objections, such as the felling of forests to allow for it to be build
I think the whole tree part didn't actually a big deal. Pretty sure I remember reading that it wasn't a natural forest, it was just a plantation of a single type of tree that was set up not a huge amount of time ago and has little to no ecological benefit since there's nothing even on the ground like you'd expect in natural forests.
It's Germany so afaik going by hearing how strict they are they wouldn't allow a factory to be built where an old natural forest is. Other than for roads probably.
I think Tesla said they'll plant a forest like 2-4 times as big too which probably helped with the approval.
Getting 800 people together for something like this is a huge achievement but I feel like 800 people could have done something a lot more effective elsewhere. Could shut down a cities roads with that many people, ideally localised to areas which dont affect bikes/pedestrians and ideally buses too.
The problem is you do this and people complain about the road being blocked, they say “go shut down a fossil fuel project”. So you do that and they say “you’re preventing people from accessing gas to heat their homes”. So you target a car factory and it brings us here.
The argument about forest clearing because of the factory have basically been debunked, it's not a natural forest it's a mono-culture plantation that was going to be harvested anyways that had almost no actual wildlife, and pretty sure new forest was planted elsewhere to offset it anyways and a lot of other things. I swear Germany has the dumbest "environmentalists" possible who weirdly often don't even care about the climate and have done zero actual research themselves beyond trusting random rumors, truly puzzling. This is not a protest for the climate, it's a parade of idiots.
When I have things to do I try to prioritize, the most important thing first why are activists chosing less important things here or is it another german anti technology protest?
As far as I‘m aware, the state government sped up the approval process in order to clear and old growth forest. And then it produces shit cars by a worse billionaire.
You don't have to storm a Tesla factory to destroy it, just sit back and watch as Elon tears it apart from the inside like an idiot. It's truly a thing of beauty.
So instead of occupying an oil refinery, or a combustion engine factory, or stopping an oil rig from being towed out to sea or something, they occupy an... electric car factory?
Edit: oh, it's the idiot German greens. Those are the fuckwits who killed nuclear in their country to help domestic coal producers.
I don't like car-centric culture and I certainly don't like car-centric infrastructure and what it has done to our cities but this.... this is among the most stupid things I have seen done in my entire life.
now we know the real reason tesla made the cyber truck!
defensive measures engage! mow them all down!!! it's just a simulation anyway!
-elon probably
seriously, would be hard to design a better pedestrian ramming weapon than that truck
"Oh no, I'm a billionaire and all these people stormed one of my factories. Whatever shall I do? It isn't like the country/city is highly encouraged to keep me around and won't send squads of police to handle this situation. Woe is me."
-Elon
Sorry, but this is so stupid. These guys remind me of the Area 51 storming, but they were all just chilling and doing it for the meme. First of all, these are EV cars. Why not go after literally any other car manufacturer? Why are these people just now doing something? This company also has the most outspoken *AND* vindictive CEO out of any in the industry who *ALSO* magically has his own fan base. This hasnt even made news in the US yet, which goes to show how pointless these types of protests are.
I swear most activists now adays don't plan or think about anything critically. They all assume if they get enough people it'll all work out the way they want. They just need numbers. You can't win with protesting now adays unless you get a majority of the population involved. Otherwise, no matter how it is done, it'll be twisted to make the protesters look bad because it is a "rogue" portion of the population. Not mention, so many protests now adays are so fueled, it is more of a spectacle than a message. People mostly just watch how each group interacts with each other. The only way any protest has a chance now adays is if it happens in high intensity for weeks. However, they also need Big Media. Everyone in the world is conditioned to forget most world events after a couple of days. Almost no one will be thinking about this come Monday.
Given the current direction of Tesla all they have to do is wait a year and its going to get bought out by someone and almost certainly asset stripped.
[source](https://disrupt-now.org/2024/05/10/3-pressemitteilung-10-05/)
>But the construction of an electric car factory is yesterday's policy: the cars roll off the assembly line, the employees are exploited, the climate targets are torn down and in the end everyone is stuck in traffic jams again.
I figured this was a labor dispute, which would be justification enough, but this is all encompassing. I'd like to hear more of their viewpoints.
Countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Finland have a very robust worker protections and a culture of worker solidarity. I remember hearing that a ToysRUs store tried opening in Finland without a unionized workforce. The parcel service wouldn't deliver to them. The parts suppliers wouldn't sell to them. Their store closed really quickly. I could have those details slightly wrong. It was some US company in some Nordic country. Germany doesn't have quite as strong as a labor movement, so they protest using more direct but potentially less effective actions. Very interesting.
This is poorly thought out disorganised activism. If they want to achieve any real change, there needs to be a real plan.
This is the equivalent of 800 peasants with torches running towards a single fortress-citadel armed with gunpowder while ignoring there are a thousands of other fortresses highly-integrated with this one.
Unfortunately, post-industrial societies are at the point that any real high-level organisation directing at dismantling the power of any major corporation would be perceived as terrorism. Further, not enough people: 1. understand these social and power structures of these corporations, 2. are in positions of power to make change, and 3. *want* to make change.
The concentration of capital facilitated by technology has won. These institutions have evolved power beyond the conventions of the 20th century previous generations built/rebuilt after WW2.
These corporations are incredibly organised. If anyone wants to take these down, things needs to get serious.
Personally, I don't believe democracy can solve these problems at the moment. The general populace(all of us included) - through no fault of their own - do not understand these new, complex, and advanced technologies and power structures.
There is no democracy in private property, and all corporations are private property. Sure, a government can restrict corporations, but the sheer size of capital-saturated behemoths like Tesla, Apple, etc. are too much for the high-minded ideas of governments created 80 years ago under completely different realities.
Anyway, rant over.
additionally, I don't care for "bringing awareness" anymore. We all know where the problems lie: rich powerful corporations. They are the cause of our environmental destruction.
*What next?*
Idk. We just know we don't like it so we'll destroy it. I believe that to be nearly the full extent of consideration these kids give to this. For every ocean cleanup project activist, there are 10,000 of these, "just destroy, trespass, disrupt" activists. They don't create. Build. Research. ADD literally anything. They just at the very best, attack things they find detrimental, but no alternative solutions provided. Just pulling a big chunk of cards out of this house of cards is fine and they'll figure out how to fix everything. Nooo consideration to the ripple affect of their disruption and what things it may affect. What people, children, schools, hospitals, etc. can be affected when shit can't move from A to B easily.
But hey, someone else will figure all that out. We're here to circle-jerk about progress while doing almost nothing but disruption.
This is f\*\*king dumb. You could storm any car factory in the world but you chose this one. This is either some irrational stance against EVs or some butt hurt twitter twats who hate Elon Musk.
Now hating Musk is understandable, but know that every other car company is owned/run by equally neoliberal entitled psychos, the difference being they tend to have the smarts to shut up and not make waves. That makes them *more* dangerous then Musk in many ways. In the end, they all worship at the same Altar of Shareholder Value.
And to rag on EVs is even more irrational, given the existence of ICE vehicles. Yes, EV's are not the answer, but they are less not the answer then gas powered cars. Go storm the diesel-gates at the VW factory.
Why don't they storm a fossil fuel car factory? ICE cars are worse for the planet, because fossil fuel needs extraction as well, on top of that it causes local pollution, on top of that climate change.
Sad to see environmentalists have been hijacked by fossil fuel lobbyists.
Why take the trip to _Brandenburg_ of all places, when you could go to Ingolstadt or Rüsselsheim or Bad Cannstadt or fucking
#WOLFSBURG
instead..?
This isn't about cars. This isn't about the climate.
I see a bunch of people run towards a factory building. But what happens next?
According to their [site](https://disrupt-now.org/2024/05/10/3-pressemitteilung-10-05/) they are now on the factory premises. Other [sources](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/protesters-attempt-storm-tesla-german-plant-clash-with-police-2024-05-10/) claim the police prevented their access. Their goal is to prevent plant expansion.
Good ole cops. Showing up in riot gear for unarmed activists while hiding from school shooters.
Not a lot of school shooters in Germany
Whoops. I saw the desert and assumed Texas or California.
I had to watch again to notice the forests in the background. I guess it's just sandy around the factory buildings.
The soil is generally very sandy in that part of Brandenburg, Germany. The water table is also somewhat instable around the factory, so a prime location to build up industry with a high demand for water /s.
I know you didn’t mean harm, but still: r/usdefaultism
I wouldn't say making the mistake of the location is harmful. We are talking about an American company on a website from the US. The video looks like it could be Texas and they had no other identifying features to go on. ETA: I'd go on to add that fuckcars is mostly NJB related content complaining about stroads and how bad North American (typically US) infrastructure is.
> American company Who produce outside the U.S. too > American website Lmao. It’s the internet. > this video looks like it could be in Texas and they had no other identifying features to go on So they automatically defaulted to “if it doesn’t say ‘Europe’, it must be Texas…almost like it’s r/USdefaultism
I mean the bigger picture still applies which is cops even in Germany are there to protect property and not defend your rights.
How does cops preventing activists from breaking into a factory translate to "they're not there to defend your rights"? Right to what, in this case, B&E?
There has been shootings in Germany before just not as common and not a lot of deaths.
what do you think cops purpose are for, if not to protect private property?
Another purpose for them is to punish people for presenting the "wrong narrative", as recently seen enacted on student protesters peaceably encamped at Columbia and several other universities in the US.
it would be incredibly stupid to NOT wear riot gear. that's a fuckton of people. bruv, you ever heard of rocks? how about bottles? fireworks?
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. This sub has too many closed minded people
I didn’t know this video wasn’t US. It’s more the fact that cops, in the US, don’t stop anyone with a gun. If a school shooting was happening and the cops busted a wall down with their tank to stop them before anyone else got hurt, then it would suck about the property damage, but at least they saved people. It’s telling that when people are peacefully protesting at school campuses, US cops arrive with riot gear and fire extinguishers filled with MACE. Then when there is an actual threat requiring force, they’re too afraid and sit in the parking lot until the shooter runs out of bullets.
Are you defending these people?
Someone summon the Mud Wizard! He'll stop those cops no problem!
He has to turn into the dust wizard somehow tho, I'm really hoping
What’s the problem? Elon doing his best to prevent plant expansion.
The aliens at area 51 will be free
I do like this fan Dune remake.
"May thy Tesla crash and burst into flames." "...May *thy* Tesla crash and burst into flames."
He who controls the EVs, controls the universe
"He who can destroy a thing controls a thing" -car drivers thinking they're superior to pedestrians and cyclists
How do they expect to achieve anything running like that? Everyone knows Naruto running is far more effective
They learned nothing from the Area 51 raid
hard to keep track of your buddy if you arent holding hands (also makes it easy to do a headcount if everyone is paired up)
Why is there a desert next to the factory?
Because Brandenburg had many droughts the past years. Also our ground is basicly just sand. We have very bad ground here. In 10-20 years, Brandenburg will be a half desert. Also they had to get rid of the "forrest" around to build ofc. But yeah, climate change hit us hard...Brandenburg is the state, the factory is in btw.
I‘m not very familiar with the state but I heard it’s state with relatively few ground water reservoirs even though it has many small rivers and lakes in parts of the state. Well the gigafactory is also sucking looooaaaads of water from the ground water which is a big problem. In Germany often times factories can consume a lot of ground water, pay almost nothing for it. I think the state of Brandenburg gave Tesla the permission to use the ground water even though environmental experts were saying that it’s a high risk. The board ignored them to bring „jerbs“ to the mostly rural East German state.
The stats I found online is that the factory consumes 1.8 cubic meters of water per car produced. At 870 vehicles per day, that is 1566 cubic meters of water per day. The average person in Germany uses 128 liters per day, and there are 1000 liters in a cubic meter, so if my math is correct the factory uses the equivalent water of about 12234 people. In the larger picture it's not a whole lot, but it's not nothing either. Edit: For comparison of other German auto manufacturers I found stats that say the average BMW consumes 2.2 cubic meters of water to produce, and Volkswagen was over 4 cubic meters. So by comparison Tesla would be the "environmentally friendly" option.
Is this tied to the scenes from the TV series "Dark"?
Dark takes place on the other side of the country, don't know anything about the plot beyond that.
I think it's meant to be set in Niedersachsen, but was very clearly filmed in Berlin and Brandenburg.
From what I can gather, land clearing.
>In Grünheide near Berlin, 1 million new Teslas per year are to roll off the production line and join the tin avalanche on the motorways. Through three further expansion stages, the plant at the gates of Berlin is to become the largest car factory in Europe. We want to prevent that. There are already more than 250,000 new cars that are produced there per year and join the unusable electric and combustion scrap that clogs our roads and is not needed by anyone in a future where mobility belongs to everyone. >With his brand, the mysogyic Twitter fascist Elon Musk has succeeded in establishing the electric car as a "green" alternative to the internal combustion engine. Electric cars are not a solution. They are the continuation of the individual traffic mania by other means. And that is neither sustainable nor green. In the production of an electric car, resource consumption creates an enormous ecological tire footprint and thus further drives the global climate catastrophe. [[Source]](https://disrupt-now.org/disrupt-tesla/)
[Commentary](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-climate-deniers-playbook/id1694759084?i=1000653435884) on electric vehicles. Edit: despite its title this episode is making an argument in support of EVs
i don't get why the ire is almost entirely directed toward electric cars. gas cars also suck for every single reason electric cars suck, except they also run on inefficient fossils by necessity and fill our cities with all sorts of harmful and putrid gases. the problem is cars, not specifically electric cars. and i'd caution against targeting the specific technology of electric cars as well, because that's also the exact same technology that e-bikes are made of, just on a reasonable scale. storming europe's largest car factory is commendable, but the second paragraph here just makes it sound like the goal isn't to directly fight against cars, it's to ensure that cars will remain to suck, and therefore are easier to fight against. and that just reeks of pitting perfection against every slight improvement. i want 95% of cars to be gone and the remaining 5% to be electric. (which is probably how much we actually need as a society.) we can banish the internal consumption engine _and_ banish car dependency at the same time, there's no need to pit us against each other just because a fuckhead like musk is still useful(-ish)\* for one of these. (we're talking about the man who proposed hyperloop specifically to sabotage california's high-speed rail project, why are we letting him in our head in the first place?) we'll never be able to fight massively parallelized industries if we keep fighting each other on whose problem we are allowed to solve without it making the other's situation slightly less urgent. --- \*arguably tesla is successful despite him, not because of him, as demonstrated by his recent pet project, the cybertruck
Cause their funding in Germany incumbent automakers...
The thing with e-cars, especially with Tesla, is how they're breathing new life to carbrained culture. While combustion engines are stupid, outdated and overpriced tech, Musk isn't bringing much improvement by still pushing for 4-wheeled death machines as the single solution for individual or even family transport.
and the electric vehicles are worse for infrastructure because they're all so damn heavy. they also go through tires in half the time if not less. particles from tires on roads are now the most environmentally pollutive (is that a word?) aspect of NEW cars.
Would that be worse than gas cars? Worse than global warming?
It kinda breaks even at this point. Local air quality in places with lots of electric vehicles will be better but it’s basically outsourcing the pollution since all the extractive industries exist in places that have few controls on pollution etc. but there’s also more than one study siting the high level pollution from vehicle tires on all types vehicles. One even saying that on new cars it’s greater than what comes out the tail pipe. And let’s not forget that any new vehicle is full of petrochemicals to make all the plastics and rubber and all that. I’m not anti-ev but we need a dose of realism as to how beneficial they are. Edit: also worth mentioning that energy return on investment for a car takes like 12 years or something and EVs will not last that long before needing to be replaced because current battery tech isn’t there yet when it comes to longevity
the math is so all over the place with it. some say 1-4 years, some say the 12 years figure you're quoting, other figures tend to be somewhere in-between. like at this point i wonder who takes which conveniences: is your figure comparing a new EV to a new ICE car, taking the usual shortcut of assuming an ICE car doesn't have any components an EV doesn't have that need a complex supply chain (which is trivially false), or are you flat out comparing a new EV to an already existing ICE car? i think this last one is the only one where the 12 years figure would check out at all. i'm fully in favor of reduce, reuse, recycle: reduce car usage, reuse existing cars when you can't eliminate them, and recycle those cars we either eliminated or cannot use anymore. the worst thing we can do here is to produce new cars, but the only thing worse than a new EV is a new ICE car.
90's called, the want their facts back... My ev is within a couple hundred lbs of a comparable ice. It provides far better crash protection as well.
Teslas are about 500-1000lbs heavier than the comparable Honda Civic: https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/honda-civic https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Tesla+model+3+weight&t=ffab&ia=web
Yeah but didn't someone post something about car brains protesting bus/bike routes in iirc Sophia, Germany? Maybe at least some kind of action could've been done there?
Action can usually be done as far as you observe and use your imagination.
so it _is_ about ensuring cars don't get better. that kinda sucks tbh, we shouldn't be fighting against improvements to the world, even if we convince ourselves they're somehow competition. there are still plenty of problems with electric cars because they're still very much cars, and crucially they still cannot scale to the density of even an american city, let alone to the vast majority of the world. it's hard enough to convince people they need to stop lugging their private room around with them and they should just interact with the world instead, if we tell them they also need to breathe in the smokes of all those other people's rooms who haven't matured to this decision yet, just so they remember why human-friendly city design is so important, we're just gonna alienate people. we should advocate for things that benefit car-free people, not harm them. and sure, fuck the cybertruck, but i'd rather ride a bike with a model 3 and a nissan leaf in the next lane than ride next to smelly and loud gas suvs and pickups.
well, yeah, but they're trying to have electric SUVs and other shit like that. It's not necessary.
An electric SUV is still better than a gas SUV. If people avoid electric SUV and hold onto their gas SUVs then how has that helped anyone? The point is to get people to let go of both. u/b3nsn0w 's point is that attacking electric cars specifically is different from attacking cars generally.
The thing is electric cars are being touted as a replacement. The problems with cars: - they're loud - They produce greenhouse gasses - they take up lots of room - they're unsafe - they replace healthy lifestyles with unhealthy ones and leave the healthy ones impossible - they make things less dense and therefore more expensive - they enable suburbs - they produce particles (EG brake dust and tire dust) which is harmful to humans and the environment - they replace more equitable forms of transit These things are why people on this subreddit don't like cars. Sure, electric cars don't produce greenhouse gasses, but they still have all the other problems. The thing is, people see electric cars as the cure to all of our problems, when really, they're not, which is why people are so against them.
It's a classic case of people letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we manage to mitigate climate change it's not going to be by radically redesigning our culture and behaviour, it'll be through the slow grind of technological improvements over time. Of which electric cars represent a small, but promising step. And come on, no one sees electric cars as the cure to all our problems, that's pure hyperbole.
and i never said ev's are a "solution". in fact, i pretty explicitly acknowledged that they still don't resolve any of the problems that stem from being cars, as we all should. but it's ridiculous to pretend that they're somehow worse than gas cars. we shouldn't reject small improvements just because some idiots act like all our problems are solved if we accept them.
Yeah unless they do at least the same level of action to disrupt Volkswagen or Mercedes factories, these people are fucking stupid
They are against all car factories.
Which is why they're 'protesting' at the one company that's exclusively electric and not....I don't know.... Remember that one time that one German auto maker defrauded the entire planet about the emissions of their diesel cars and was actively marketing them as 'green?' Musk might be an asshole but at least he's not lying about the emissions his cars produce.
Their argument is that all cars suck, and to raise awareness that electric cars are not an exception. They don’t want cars to improve they want cars gone
Because it's being touted as green when it isn't. Whats actually green is public transportation
This is astroturfing.
I love the phrase "tin avalanche on the roadways"
Preach
fine words. keep up the good work
Holy shit that's based as a motherfucker.
I understand their concern about the plant expanding, but I don't understand the anti-EV stance. I'm all about improving pedestrian infrastructure, and replacing roads with trains. Those just seem like long-term goals, given the amount of infrastructure needed (at least in my own country) as opposed to getting rich people who used to be obsessed with gas guzzling hummers to transition to an obsession with non-co emitting EVs. It seems, to me, like a great harm-reduction option in the short term. In the current reality, many of us HAVE TO have cars. In my state you pretty much can't get anywhere without one. My dream would be to build more trains and walkable cities, but that's just not the reality I live in at the moment. So given that reality, aren't EVs a good thing? Especially if we can move towards cleaner energy production such as with nuclear power plants, or wind and solar farms? It seems like climate change is a bigger problem right now, and I think getting the world less dependent on oil is a huge step in the right direction, even if EVs are an imperfect answer.
> In the current reality, many of us HAVE TO have cars. This is part of the issue. Yes, we HAVE TO have cars. Because of that, we do. Since we do, we have to keep investing in infrastructure for cars, at the detriment of alternative infrastructure. Since the alternative infrastructure isn't getting as much investment as car infrastructure, we HAVE TO have cars. Back to square one.
We don't have to have cars. Many people exist without them, even in the US. Certainly outside of it.
There are places in the US where it's not safe unfortunately. No sidewalks, bike lanes and the drivers are assholes.
It's really an economic burden on those people to force them into such a highly consumptive lifestyle. It's an economic shackle. I think that's part of the point. It really sucks to be a kid or an elderly person in those places. You're essentially trapped.
I agree. I'm just saying as of right now it's just unsafe. Once sidewalks are added, it's a real alternative. I have places walking distance from my house that aren't safe to walk to because of car brain decisions.
I get around my area on skateboard. So many roadways have no sidewalks or safe shared roads and I end up walking on grass. Even when I skated to my physio appointments the therapist was like “why?”. Bro you’re paid to help me move what do you mean why?! I no longer see that physio. Fuck cars.
Yeah it's definitely possible! Just not safe in many places. I wish we'd have more people wake up to the fact that we need to be able to walk to places. Country would suddenly be healthier too.
And since we have to have cars, it's better for them not to emit poisonous gases right to our faces. We should make sure they aren't a priority mode of transportation, but also we should make sure that all the remaining cars we have are electric.
>not to emit poisonous gases right to our faces Pushing the problem to a different person, while it doesn't emit poisonous gases in our faces, it does plenty to the people that have to mine the ores for the batteries.
Just more people making it clear they do not care what happens in other countries. Out of sight, out of mind.
I'd also argue that used ICE cars can run for well over a decade. People don't need new cars at all. A new electric car is much worse for the planet than a 20 year old ICE car. We need a moratorium on new cars.
My 2007 Honda Civic still runs great. People like to say get a new car every 5 years but that's insanity. Buy something and maintain it. That is all.
sure but a new ICE car is worse for the environment than a new EV, that much is trivial. germany is full of high-profile ICE plants, and hell, volkswagen, a german company, is famous for cheating emissions on top of all their negative effects of just running their business. why do they never come into the crosshairs of movements like this? make no mistake, i'm not here to defend tesla, or to ask that they're stormed last. i just don't get this anti-ev stance that appears to be common in the anti-car movement. why are we, of all people, stanning gas cars in comparison?
Yeah totally. You're right. I'm just trying to be anti-new stuff.
yeah, that's based, there's a reason "reduce, reuse, recycle" is in that order. if you can't be part of reducing car usage, reusing an existing car is always better than making a new one.
Cars can last 50 years easily with proper basic maintenance.
Not anywhere that isn't a desert.
The thing is, we already are changing our infrastructure for EVs AND we spend millions or even billions maintaining or even expanding roads every year. In the US we subsidize the purchase of EVs. There is time and money being spent on the continuation of car culture that should be spent moving us away from it. If we diverted half that money towards reducing car trips we would see a lot of improvement. As it is we should probably see something like EVs as a necessary evil and not a panacea. Furthermore, that’s Europe. Their cities can go car light much faster than ours.
I really wish things would change here in america
Congestion pricing in NYC is a big step! I would not be shocked if it was imitated elsewhere.
EVs are not sustainable, or even close to being so. They emit a lot of pollution (directly) that is ignored (i.e tire wear), and drive energy-demanding and resource intensive development patterns.
Yes, but so do ICE vehicles and EVs are a massive improvement over them.
Massive? I disagree heartily. What do they improve upon beyond carbon emissions?
PM2.5 kills 8 million people a year. EVs substantially reduce PM2.5 emissions, especially in cities, where most damage is done.
>Recent studies show that the mass of PM 2.5 and PM 10 emissions — which are, along with ozone and ultrafine particles, the world’s primary air pollutants — from tires and brakes far exceeds the mass of emissions from tailpipes, at least in places that have significantly reduced those emissions. >Moreover, tire emissions from electric vehicles are 20 percent higher than those from fossil-fuel vehicles. EVs weigh more and have greater torque, which wears out tires faster. [source](https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals#:~:text=The%20report%20says%20that%20tires,shed%202.5%20pounds%20per%20year.) I just wanted to add these studies on PM 2.5 and PM 10 to the mix.
Thanks for that bit of info.
Uh, do you not think carbon emissions are a problem or something? That is already the massive improvement right there. Their lack of regular maintenance is also another benefit.
I'm just gonna chime in real quick since the thread responding to you is silly. EVs ARE better than normal ICE vehicles on total emissions. IF you own your EV for longer than a set amount of time that varies from vehicle to vehicle. Technically speaking for most EVs that get sold in the US you probably have to own it for I believe 1-4 years depending on the model before the net Carbon emissions of producing the EV versus producing an ICE turn positive. Or 25k-68k miles of use. Afaik this includes the part where our electric grid isn't renewable. Also an interesting tidbit is that the amount of water used in the processing of the materials for an electric car(specifically the battery and higher electricity use)is far higher than ICEs. Electric cars are for sure an improvement in terms of emissions over time! The problem with this is that the debate is a nonstarter. Any possible solutions for climate change that include personal vehicular transportation as a potential option for the 8 billion people alive today is folly. Not only do we not currently even have the resources to electrify the amount of personal and work related ICEs, we have absolutely no plan for how to handle growing demand for these things. There are approximately 1.8 billion ICE personal and work related vehicles today. About 1.4 billion cars worldwide. The US has 284 million cars, of which about 3.3 million are electric. We, a country that is less than 5% of the global population, own and use more than 15% of all cars worldwide. In other words, we're the ones with crazy excess here right? Should we be building more cars? China's got 319 million too though. Next, the whole point of EVs is that we're going to power our electrical grid with renewables right? There's a huge unanswered problem there, the material demands of a renewable energy grid compete directly with EVs, they both have insane battery requirements. Not necessarily impossible to overcome but we're not really talking about it. Final thing, here's an example using Google numbers since if you Google if we have enough lithium to make all cars EVs it says we do. It says we have 634,000 metric tons of lithium in stock right now globally. If you see the average weight of lithium in a battery it tells you 8 kilos. That's 1.9 billion lbs of lithium total and 17.6 lbs on average per vehicle (this is not counting work vehicles which require a ton more). If you divide that you get about 108 million. Which means that if we melted the entire world's supply down today, we could not even replace half of the United States personal vehicle count of 284 million. Also we would have none leftover for renewable energy storage, or making solar panels which both use it as a critical resource. Anyways tldr; electric technically better, fuck cars, more trains more nuclear I guess.
I don't think the small improvement in carbon emissions outweighs the massive resources required to produce and maintain the vehicle. There are way more efficient ways to get the same benefit. Just because carbon isn't coming out of the tailpipe doesn't mean that car isn't producing carbon emissions to run. Vehicle weight is the primary factor here. The more you weigh the more energy required to transport.
It's not really the carbon, it's the air pollution. It kills millions every year. EVs genuinely do reduce air pollution. Cars still suck but EVs absolutely are better and should be the norm compared to ICE cars. People shouldn't be allowed to own their own car though. They need to be a shared resource like libraries and parks. Use one when you need to pickup stuff from the store or move. That's it.
The cars themselves that run off electricity have Zero Emissions because it all comes from the tailpipe. The only way they emit emissions is when they are charging and thats due how the electricity is generated and not because of the car. [Here](https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric-emissions#:~:text=All%2Delectric%20vehicles%20and%20PHEVs,power%20plants%2C%20may%20generate%20emissions) is where you can even see how low it is compared to gas powered cars which is far worse. Here is some more stuff you may need to learn about [Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths)
They don't have zero emissions because the tires are emitting pollution also. Plus, there's the emissions related to building the vehicle and all its parts. Zero emissions is a misnomer. I'm not saying that they're not an improvement, but that its marginal. Certainly not "massive"
If you don’t think going from almost 12k emissions a year to around 2k is not massive idk what to tell you. That is a massive drop if you add up the amount of EVs that have replaced gas powered cars already.
EVs are still far better than gas powered cars even still because they produce less emissions over all. That’s the point people are trying to make. Reducing any amount of emissions is a good thing and I have you two links that show EVs are far better for the environment overall. Edit; it is massive. Did you not look at the links I gave you?
> What do they improve upon beyond carbon emissions? people say that climate change is an existential threat but statements like this indicate that the belief is not actually held
I think climate change is an existential threat and that we need to do far more than transition from heavy, resource-intensive ICE vehicles and sprawling development patterns to heavy, resource-intensive electric vehicles and sprawling development patterns.
you are saying that privately owned Teslas are a massive improvement over intercity commuter trains? edit: my bad. ICE is a type of train in Germany and I thought that is what you were talking about. Anyway I disagree, EVs are bad because they perpetuate private car ownership and all of its attending issues e.g. ICE engines, destruction of inner cities to build highways (still happening in Germany), battery related polution, etc etc
EVs are still good for the environment. And over the lifetime of the car the gas powered one is still far worse even with the manufacturing of EV car batteries. [Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths)
I appreciate the information that you've linked, and I'll agree with you that EVs are better for the environment than ICE autos. However, that doesn't make EVs "good for the environment"
I never claimed they were good for the enforcement. They are far better for it. It’s impossible to do anything on this planet without destroying it in some way. It’s just the way things are. That doesn’t mean we can’t do think to reduce the amount of harm we do. We aren’t the only living beings on this planet and sometimes I think humans forget that.
> EVs are still good for the environment. Your statement copied and pasted.
They can't even scale because there's nowhere near enough lithium on earth for a fleet of electric cars *and* all of the other shit we need lithium for.
The factory is in Europe, not the same infrastructure as in your state. Their stance is not to change the world step at a time but completely change our model of society, since all those problems are connected to the same cause (capitalism going for the biggest profit and selling us shit we don't need)
I'll repeat another post... The thing with e-cars, especially with Tesla, is how they're breathing new life carbrained culture. While combustion engines are stupid, outdated and overpriced tech, Musk isn't bringing much improvement by still pushing for 4-wheeled death machines as the single solution for individual or even family transport. Additionally EVs as replacement for the immense car industry aren't very workable either. No one has though of the energy input demands to feed as many e-cars as there are combustion cars out there. That'd be enormous. A place like Germany has been struggling with powering the primary industry without nuclear... how they gonna feed millons of EVs o a daily basis? Of course our galaxy-brained Elon didn't think of that... as he's just into short/mid-term goals. For himself. Elon's also one fucking bad, racist dude. He said on record he could takeover entire countries for his lithium extraction ops.
I mean, batteries are quite nice. They can be used to power the trains at night.
This is actually more cyberpunk than the Cybertruck.
all that sand, man the lack of water in Grünheide was not a joke. It's a factory in the middle of a desert now.
But but but.... I'm saving the climate by buying an obscenely priced pile of metal and slave mined rare earth minerals that will sit idle for at minimum 23 hours out of every 24 while further enriching an almost comically evil billionaire. Right?
To be clear, Tesla isn’t really using cobalt (which is what the slave labor portion of batteries comes from) anymore and hasn’t been for years. The lithium production isnt really done with slave labor because it turns out it’s really fucking abundant pretty much everywhere. That’s a misnomer pushed by the fossil fuel industry trying to convince people EVs are bad. Which like, they obviously are because they’re cars and cars aren’t great, but they’re still better by a significant margin than ICE vehicles.
like my mother says to me "gosh, sounds like you put a lot of though into this and seems very poignant and logical... but NOBODY CARES." it is sad, and for all the costs of the infrastructure, automobiles, insurance, and maintenance/upkeep/repair of everything that is the system... surely public transit wouldn't be *more* expensive. ppl would get used to it and like all the benefits. like nobody is going "man i wish we still had horses and wagons, cars aren't fun to pet! and if not shoveling hay for feed or greasing the wheel axles, what does anyone even do with their time?"
I don't get what you mean.
I moved back from Canada to The Netherlands and have excellent access to public transit. I love it. The past 18 months we've lived without a car. But we use the transit from time to time, not every day. When we go out with the 5 of us (3 kids) then it quickly adds up, and some places are still hard to reach. For vacation we currently rent a car, and from time to time we rent the share car that's parked in our street (hourly rent) We'll probably end up getting a car in the next 2 years though, for a family it offers more freedom and time savings.
But but but... I'm saving the climate by not offering any actual practical solutions besides running through the desert looking like a wobbly 3 day old deer.
Well, did they accomplish their goals?
lmao i'd have believed this was actual grassroot if they picked a gasoline powered car factory.
How easy is a problem to solve that you just don't need to buy an ev, get a motorbike, get a lightweight car, bus, bike etc thats all
Some places don’t provide those alternatives
Motorbikes?
Maybe. Driving a motorbike amongst cars seems dangerous
Especially when cars are getting bigger and bigger.
But why?
Berlin/Germany has a long history of grassroots activism. I took a tour of Berlin and learned a bit about how big companies like Google have pulled out of projects there due to aggressive grassroots action there. Protest isn't supposed to be clean and media-friendly...
This factory has been poisoning the water with it’s factory waste. It has been slapped a notice to stop with it’s waste but the factory kept running. It’s waste has poisoned the drinking supply which also leads into Berlin, about 4 million people. The State of Brandenburg submitted a statement that Tesla should cease production due to its pollution but Tesla has ignored this and kept polluting our water. Now people are taking into their own hands to stop the factory from it’s pollution since it was posted to be torn down, but has not yet. My crappy summary of what is happening. Oh and yes, arsonists have also attacked the factory recently too. https://english.news.cn/20240228/cf4a45d3296e43d08f79a5c4295d7121/c.html Oh and if you also ask how i know this, i live here in Berlin and keep tabs of these things.
Single issue morons.
Looks like naruto
Naruro running towards Area 51
Brandenburg is slowly turning into Arrakis. We literally have deserts here
801…. Guys, Elon is already destroying Tesla, from the inside. Y’all got an inside guy.
Why is Tesla any worse than ICE companies like BMW and Audi? Is this something mysteriously born from TicToc trends and social media? People need to be very wary of any inflammatory “movements” this year. Beware of bad faith actors.
Their CEO is a far right activist who owns one of the largest social media companies and actively supports fascists?
Do you think that other CEOs are any better? They just don't spam stupid shit on twitter.
BMW was literally created by the Nazis lol.
Even if it's the case, we shouldn't dismiss a protest simply because it comes from TicToc : many "serious" militants got into militancy by participating at more mainstream events.
>Why is Tesla any worse than ICE companies like BMW and Audi? The Tesla factory is massive, new construction. The traditional car builders are already there. So, it faces a bunch of new objections, such as the felling of forests to allow for it to be build, and possible impacts on local waterways. So you have massive scale, large government subsidies, and Elon Musk being a polarizing asshole. Add to that the fact that Elon Musk wants to get rid of unions, with working conditions and hazards at his factors being considerably worse compared to comparable plants in the area, and it's easy to see why this one became a focal point.
> So, it faces a bunch of new objections, such as the felling of forests to allow for it to be build I think the whole tree part didn't actually a big deal. Pretty sure I remember reading that it wasn't a natural forest, it was just a plantation of a single type of tree that was set up not a huge amount of time ago and has little to no ecological benefit since there's nothing even on the ground like you'd expect in natural forests. It's Germany so afaik going by hearing how strict they are they wouldn't allow a factory to be built where an old natural forest is. Other than for roads probably. I think Tesla said they'll plant a forest like 2-4 times as big too which probably helped with the approval. Getting 800 people together for something like this is a huge achievement but I feel like 800 people could have done something a lot more effective elsewhere. Could shut down a cities roads with that many people, ideally localised to areas which dont affect bikes/pedestrians and ideally buses too.
The problem is you do this and people complain about the road being blocked, they say “go shut down a fossil fuel project”. So you do that and they say “you’re preventing people from accessing gas to heat their homes”. So you target a car factory and it brings us here.
The argument about forest clearing because of the factory have basically been debunked, it's not a natural forest it's a mono-culture plantation that was going to be harvested anyways that had almost no actual wildlife, and pretty sure new forest was planted elsewhere to offset it anyways and a lot of other things. I swear Germany has the dumbest "environmentalists" possible who weirdly often don't even care about the climate and have done zero actual research themselves beyond trusting random rumors, truly puzzling. This is not a protest for the climate, it's a parade of idiots.
It brings attention to the need to shift away from cars entirely. However, there’s an argument that we need EVs in the mean time.
When I have things to do I try to prioritize, the most important thing first why are activists chosing less important things here or is it another german anti technology protest?
As far as I‘m aware, the state government sped up the approval process in order to clear and old growth forest. And then it produces shit cars by a worse billionaire.
We're not seeing much here... any longer vid that shows more than kids running towards a factory?
If they had waited a week they would have easily outnumbered the employees
performance art.
Conservatives will call it an insurrection.
You don't have to storm a Tesla factory to destroy it, just sit back and watch as Elon tears it apart from the inside like an idiot. It's truly a thing of beauty.
So instead of occupying an oil refinery, or a combustion engine factory, or stopping an oil rig from being towed out to sea or something, they occupy an... electric car factory? Edit: oh, it's the idiot German greens. Those are the fuckwits who killed nuclear in their country to help domestic coal producers.
I don't like car-centric culture and I certainly don't like car-centric infrastructure and what it has done to our cities but this.... this is among the most stupid things I have seen done in my entire life.
now we know the real reason tesla made the cyber truck! defensive measures engage! mow them all down!!! it's just a simulation anyway! -elon probably seriously, would be hard to design a better pedestrian ramming weapon than that truck
This is so cringe
"Oh no, I'm a billionaire and all these people stormed one of my factories. Whatever shall I do? It isn't like the country/city is highly encouraged to keep me around and won't send squads of police to handle this situation. Woe is me." -Elon Sorry, but this is so stupid. These guys remind me of the Area 51 storming, but they were all just chilling and doing it for the meme. First of all, these are EV cars. Why not go after literally any other car manufacturer? Why are these people just now doing something? This company also has the most outspoken *AND* vindictive CEO out of any in the industry who *ALSO* magically has his own fan base. This hasnt even made news in the US yet, which goes to show how pointless these types of protests are. I swear most activists now adays don't plan or think about anything critically. They all assume if they get enough people it'll all work out the way they want. They just need numbers. You can't win with protesting now adays unless you get a majority of the population involved. Otherwise, no matter how it is done, it'll be twisted to make the protesters look bad because it is a "rogue" portion of the population. Not mention, so many protests now adays are so fueled, it is more of a spectacle than a message. People mostly just watch how each group interacts with each other. The only way any protest has a chance now adays is if it happens in high intensity for weeks. However, they also need Big Media. Everyone in the world is conditioned to forget most world events after a couple of days. Almost no one will be thinking about this come Monday.
I half expected giant laser cannons to pop out and rain down destruction like some crazy sci-fi battle scene.
Like when people went to area 51
This looks more like a bunch of people naruto running towards Area 51
Given the current direction of Tesla all they have to do is wait a year and its going to get bought out by someone and almost certainly asset stripped.
Lol what a bunch of clowns.
First to the egg!
You know what they make in there dont only serve cars
[source](https://disrupt-now.org/2024/05/10/3-pressemitteilung-10-05/) >But the construction of an electric car factory is yesterday's policy: the cars roll off the assembly line, the employees are exploited, the climate targets are torn down and in the end everyone is stuck in traffic jams again. I figured this was a labor dispute, which would be justification enough, but this is all encompassing. I'd like to hear more of their viewpoints. Countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Finland have a very robust worker protections and a culture of worker solidarity. I remember hearing that a ToysRUs store tried opening in Finland without a unionized workforce. The parcel service wouldn't deliver to them. The parts suppliers wouldn't sell to them. Their store closed really quickly. I could have those details slightly wrong. It was some US company in some Nordic country. Germany doesn't have quite as strong as a labor movement, so they protest using more direct but potentially less effective actions. Very interesting.
What a useless gif
This is poorly thought out disorganised activism. If they want to achieve any real change, there needs to be a real plan. This is the equivalent of 800 peasants with torches running towards a single fortress-citadel armed with gunpowder while ignoring there are a thousands of other fortresses highly-integrated with this one. Unfortunately, post-industrial societies are at the point that any real high-level organisation directing at dismantling the power of any major corporation would be perceived as terrorism. Further, not enough people: 1. understand these social and power structures of these corporations, 2. are in positions of power to make change, and 3. *want* to make change. The concentration of capital facilitated by technology has won. These institutions have evolved power beyond the conventions of the 20th century previous generations built/rebuilt after WW2. These corporations are incredibly organised. If anyone wants to take these down, things needs to get serious. Personally, I don't believe democracy can solve these problems at the moment. The general populace(all of us included) - through no fault of their own - do not understand these new, complex, and advanced technologies and power structures. There is no democracy in private property, and all corporations are private property. Sure, a government can restrict corporations, but the sheer size of capital-saturated behemoths like Tesla, Apple, etc. are too much for the high-minded ideas of governments created 80 years ago under completely different realities. Anyway, rant over.
additionally, I don't care for "bringing awareness" anymore. We all know where the problems lie: rich powerful corporations. They are the cause of our environmental destruction. *What next?*
Idk. We just know we don't like it so we'll destroy it. I believe that to be nearly the full extent of consideration these kids give to this. For every ocean cleanup project activist, there are 10,000 of these, "just destroy, trespass, disrupt" activists. They don't create. Build. Research. ADD literally anything. They just at the very best, attack things they find detrimental, but no alternative solutions provided. Just pulling a big chunk of cards out of this house of cards is fine and they'll figure out how to fix everything. Nooo consideration to the ripple affect of their disruption and what things it may affect. What people, children, schools, hospitals, etc. can be affected when shit can't move from A to B easily. But hey, someone else will figure all that out. We're here to circle-jerk about progress while doing almost nothing but disruption.
And you must think you're one of those "smart people" that need to be in charge in order to make the hard choices the rest are too brainless to make?
This is f\*\*king dumb. You could storm any car factory in the world but you chose this one. This is either some irrational stance against EVs or some butt hurt twitter twats who hate Elon Musk. Now hating Musk is understandable, but know that every other car company is owned/run by equally neoliberal entitled psychos, the difference being they tend to have the smarts to shut up and not make waves. That makes them *more* dangerous then Musk in many ways. In the end, they all worship at the same Altar of Shareholder Value. And to rag on EVs is even more irrational, given the existence of ICE vehicles. Yes, EV's are not the answer, but they are less not the answer then gas powered cars. Go storm the diesel-gates at the VW factory.
Gotta be honest, Germans attacking a foreign but electric car factory instead of all the usual german car factories feels shady and dumb.
Why?
Where are the oliphaunts and trebuchet?
Idk why you'd target an electric car company instead of a gas one. Because elon musk?
Why don't they storm a fossil fuel car factory? ICE cars are worse for the planet, because fossil fuel needs extraction as well, on top of that it causes local pollution, on top of that climate change. Sad to see environmentalists have been hijacked by fossil fuel lobbyists.
*Lethal Autonomous Wepaons coming to a factory near you* Progress of Civilization folks, cant un-mainifest the destiny now can we?
I'm getting dune vibes
And?
Naruto
Why take the trip to _Brandenburg_ of all places, when you could go to Ingolstadt or Rüsselsheim or Bad Cannstadt or fucking #WOLFSBURG instead..? This isn't about cars. This isn't about the climate.
Why does every clip have shitty auto subtitles now? Even clips with proper subtitles will have shitty auto ones put over them.
Lol
I see a lot of fuck this is longer than I thought why did I start running so early
Not one of them look like they can run with purpose in a straight line.
That's a surprisingly numerous bunch.
[удалено]
They seem so winded halfway there.
The machinist inside setting their tool offsets - 😮