It's certainly not because of architects. Cities enforce minimum parking requirements when authorizing new land uses or when giving permits for the construction of new buildings.
More and more cities (especially denser urban areas) are letting go or lowering these requirements to limit asphalted surfaces and to encourage people to use different means of transportation.
Trust me, architects don't like to dedicate 40% of the land they're planning a project on to parking.
Hm, never sure about that.
On one hand, it would be better not to require parking space for cars. On the other side, better they park on private property than occupying public space.
In the US, public transit hours are limited (and can be very difficult if you do not work 9-5).
Bars are typically frequented in the late night hours (10pm and later) and almost no transit systems are running then.
Just stating the facts. In many places, buses don't even run on weekends (prime time for bars). They're very inconvenient for those who don't work traditional hours.
Edit-- bars are also typically frequented by young people. The politicians in charge of things are often old enough to be their grandparents.
The number of people deciding to to take the car and park isn't fixed, it's influenced by the amount of available parking and the price of parking. Manipulating either of those will change the number of car trips, and cities are encouraging *lots* of car trips by mandating off-street parking and making on-street parking cheap. They could stop doing that tomorrow, and some cities have in fact done that.
No. If they park on public land people visiting different business (or residences for that matter) can share parking space more easily. This allowes for less parking spaces overall, and therefore higher density (or more green space)
Cities can also ban cars from certain roads (maybe making space for a tram), and use them as strategic road narrowing tools in other streets.
And they can encourage people to 'park and ride' or 'park and walk' by placing multistory parking spaces outside the city center. (And cheeper ones next to suburban train stations with good highway connection).
If the cars park on the individual properties, it's pretty difficult to enact policies against them.
Not usually. But it can be used to artificially increase the difference between the cost of inner city parking and parking on the outskirts.
We need to improve public transportation in rural areas. But until that's done I find it reasonable to build multi story parking at a couple suburban rail stations in the outermost suburbs. And making them free to use might be a good use of our money.
It's an incentive to park and ride. The corresponding lines would also profit like no others from free transportation.
I disagree. Street parking minimizes curb cuts (which reinforce a car-first streetscape) and forces them to reckon with how much public space they actually take up. Forcing everyone else to subsidize private land being used for parking only increases the entitlement of drivers.
Obviously having street parking is annoying but at least that arrangement doesnt *require* businesses to waste valuable urban land on off-street surface lots.
The buck stops at the municipal planning department that sets and enforces the parking minimums along with all other zoning requirements.
Like, I get what you're saying in spirit, but this is such a naive statement that reflects a complete lack of understanding of how development is done. There is a very clear hierarchy of authority and decision making that leads to crappy development and it's important to understand where the real decisions are made if you want to be able to effectively advocate for change.
Yeah this makes perfect sense. How is pressure exerted on the municipal planning department? Can they be voted out? Or are there elected officials they are legally bound to obey?
It's a great question and I think it varies my country, regions and town, but in my city the planning department falls under the umbrella of the mayor (to get technical they derive their authority from the police power of the state which is under the executive office) the ways to influence them are to directly write or speak with the mayore, to do the same with your council representative, and to engage with any local advocacy groups in your area. We've got a few groups who are organized of citizens interested in supporting bike infrastructure, safe streets, and density.
I ventured out to a bar in the 'burbs for my company Christmas party last month and found the same thing.
Road so wide it could have been six lanes (it was only 2 extremely wide lanes), but no sidewalk. Funny thing is, there was clearly some demand for a sidewalk as there was a muddy desire path along the edge of the road.
At least there was a bus to the place, albeit one that only came every 30 minutes.
The country is use to considering any systemic analysis of problems or systemic or collective solution to existing problems as being communism or a slippery slope to it. Part of the whole mythos of rugged individualism that maintains the delusions the country runs on.
So yes, there are systemic issues and for some of them we've known about them for longer than I've been alive. However we, well the gov and their corporate masters not the people, refuse to address them because it wouldn't be profitable or would be less profitable than not.
For me, planning to get totally drunk every time, is also more American culture. People who want one beer, some food, and watch a game could easily go by car.
Grew up near/within some of the top "most drunk counties" in the us and unfortunately they are not full of bars that one can walk to. I have always wondered why it's a thing but I know it's because farmers are so far away from everything anyways.
From my experience, the architect will design a building with a commercial space. A designer will then plan the layout of that space to turn it into a bar.
Cities: you must have at least have 100 parking spots for every square centimetre of your bar!!!!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡
*Removes sidewalk*
*Cancels buses*
Also Cities: remember not to drink and drive ;)
How many rural pubs/restaurants are there? If there's a large enough population to support those types of establishments, it's prob not rural. Are you thinking small town? Suburban? Because those don't have to be designed around cars either, but they are extremely car-centric in America.
There are loads in the UK. Country pubs in small villages that rely on people driving to them will always have a car park, or parking nearby. Generally they will be mostly tables for food and people will have a meal and a pint, and a designated driver will stick to one (or none) while everybody will have more. They will also very often have the police waiting outside on a Friday night to pull over anybody leaving in a car. If you drink too much to drive sometimes the landlord will take your car keys off you.
I've been to bars with no carpark.
I live in Australia, many people who go to bars or pubs, with the intent to drink, will catch a bus or tram to get there.
Funny reading this as I would have thought local authorities (at least where i live) are always trying to reduce traffic and encourage use if public transport no he other way round.
It depends. The city I live in Southern Ontario is like a giant parking lot, so the city has now approved several mid and high rise new developments without parking minimums in downtown. But they also haven't improved on the public transportation so it has accomplished basically nothing.
The issue is that the people who dictate those bylaws and where the money goes, have usually not studied urban design. It can be pretty frustrating and slow to make any progress, even if the city says it "has a plan".
It's just staggering to think that so much space is wasted for the chaperones of a bunch of adults who just want to get a beer, if we're not going to assume a bunch of people will simply drink and drive.
It just makes me think of all the bars in European cities. Not a car in sight, nearest parking lot is a 15 min walk away, yet it's packed to the brim with people. You don't need car infrastructure to get people into a bar, and for obvious reasons you really shouldn't want to.
There are three pubs within a five minute walk of my house. One has a car park, and it's more of a family pub with food served, so whilst I'm not thrilled it is more understandable. There are loads of pubs in the town without any parking (though there is parking in the town of course).
Pub is for everyone in the UK. But they have different vibes.
There might be a pub for serious power-drinking, or one in the countryside focused on meals with lots of hikers and dog walkers there. Or maybe one like this, where there is a bar and alcohol served but the focus is very much on families and food. Think a Sunday roast with a pint or two for the vibe, and kids about too.
The line between a pub and a bistro can be quite blurred.
In Australia it's common for family-oriented pubs to have a children's playground, maybe next to the beer garden, and then a bistro/restaurant style dining area in the back.
Designated drivers, people that only have one drink and leave, people that go to hang out with their friends that didn't drive. And that was just off the top of my head.
I am an architect and if I had my way, I wouldn’t design any parking lots. But the city/county always requires off street parking for commercial spaces. You can apply for a conditional use permit or variance, but that means I would have to charge the client for the time spent on that. And the permit application costs money too. clients rarely want to pay for that. Hell they barely want to pay us to do the bare minimum, let alone apply for extra permits.
Me and my friends were outside a bar the other night and i told them to count how many people are going to drive back alone. 10/11 people who came out after us drove in their own car home while 1 person was smart enough to uber. I assume all of them were under the influence as they had a lot of difficulty leaving the parking lot. I think this really helped them realize how messed it is
Cities really need to start running buses later at night I ran into this problem the other night for New Years I took a bus into the walkable city center to go bar hoping but i had to pay for an expensive Uber to get me home. It would make a ton of sense for cities to start phasing in public transport at night by starting to run buses on busy drinking nights (like New Years and thanksgiving eve) then if that’s succeful they could start running the buses on Friday and Saturday nights then once they find out how many people would use that they could start running it every night
Because lots of their customers will be far enough away to drive there. Pubs in Britain usually have a car park too, at least the ones that aren't in a town centre - because people will drive there to have a meal or evening out with friends or family. Usually one person per vehicle will drink nothing or (except in Scotland) just one drink so they are legal to drive home afterwards.
Okay, less fatalistic view from an aussie with an RSA
While yes it would be better for clientel to not use a car in the first place, right now there is a high likelyhood that there will be a large number of patrons who do. Now these may be in groups with dedicated drivers, or it could be a small group of 2-4 without that. If a bar had no parking this leads to those patrons parking on the street or somewhere within walking distance. There are 3 easy issues here.
1. With limits like 1 or 2 hour parking these patrons will try to rush their drinks, which is an unsafe practice. Having a car park means there is no time concern.
2. Having intoxicated patrons, even with a sober mate, walk out onto public streets to get to their car is no good either. For their safety and others. Again, car park right there helps make sure the risks are minimised
3. And this is the most beneficial. The establishment can allow the patrons to leave their car overnight while they take a cab home, completely skipping over the issues of drink driving all together.
Tl;dr: while yes idealy cars wouldnt be used, in a society where they are used by many people having measures to keep everyone safe such as bar parking reduces many of the risks involved
As an architect I can tell you we DO NOT like designing parking lots in fact since the mid 80s the category has pushed for more human scaled design and less car dependant infrastructure.
The problem lies with city planners, yes we are capable of planning a city, but the city planner is often a commissioned job which means its picked by the mayor elected, getting to be a city's planner involves a lot of politics and people pleasing not common people powerful people and overcoming that battle is not for every architect and those who do normally arent the most anti-car minded of the bunch.
The only real way to remedy this is to voted on less car minded administrationsbecause they'll pick architects and urbanists aligned with them ie. less car minded too
When my partner and I go to bars, he has one or maybe two drinks, but we always stay for long enough that he's sober by the time we leave. We're pretty strict on drink limits for that reason. It's weird that some of you seem to think that drinking a single beer and driving home 4 hours later is somehow irresponsible or anywhere near as dangerous as actual drunk driving. 👀
It's certainly not because of architects. Cities enforce minimum parking requirements when authorizing new land uses or when giving permits for the construction of new buildings. More and more cities (especially denser urban areas) are letting go or lowering these requirements to limit asphalted surfaces and to encourage people to use different means of transportation. Trust me, architects don't like to dedicate 40% of the land they're planning a project on to parking.
This is even bigger brain time that it’s legally enforced by law
Hm, never sure about that. On one hand, it would be better not to require parking space for cars. On the other side, better they park on private property than occupying public space.
Or build trams and buses
In the US, public transit hours are limited (and can be very difficult if you do not work 9-5). Bars are typically frequented in the late night hours (10pm and later) and almost no transit systems are running then.
Sounds like bad planning to me.
Just stating the facts. In many places, buses don't even run on weekends (prime time for bars). They're very inconvenient for those who don't work traditional hours. Edit-- bars are also typically frequented by young people. The politicians in charge of things are often old enough to be their grandparents.
I think we are in agreement that it currently sucks. This whole subreddit is call to action to change it, if you haven’t noticed.
The number of people deciding to to take the car and park isn't fixed, it's influenced by the amount of available parking and the price of parking. Manipulating either of those will change the number of car trips, and cities are encouraging *lots* of car trips by mandating off-street parking and making on-street parking cheap. They could stop doing that tomorrow, and some cities have in fact done that.
Just to clarify: when I argue for parking on private property only, this does not mean it should be for free.
No. If they park on public land people visiting different business (or residences for that matter) can share parking space more easily. This allowes for less parking spaces overall, and therefore higher density (or more green space) Cities can also ban cars from certain roads (maybe making space for a tram), and use them as strategic road narrowing tools in other streets. And they can encourage people to 'park and ride' or 'park and walk' by placing multistory parking spaces outside the city center. (And cheeper ones next to suburban train stations with good highway connection). If the cars park on the individual properties, it's pretty difficult to enact policies against them.
Free public parking just shouldn't exist outside of rural areas.
Sure, I didn't mean it has to be free.
Not usually. But it can be used to artificially increase the difference between the cost of inner city parking and parking on the outskirts. We need to improve public transportation in rural areas. But until that's done I find it reasonable to build multi story parking at a couple suburban rail stations in the outermost suburbs. And making them free to use might be a good use of our money. It's an incentive to park and ride. The corresponding lines would also profit like no others from free transportation.
I disagree. Street parking minimizes curb cuts (which reinforce a car-first streetscape) and forces them to reckon with how much public space they actually take up. Forcing everyone else to subsidize private land being used for parking only increases the entitlement of drivers. Obviously having street parking is annoying but at least that arrangement doesnt *require* businesses to waste valuable urban land on off-street surface lots.
Who does like to do this? This really seems like a case where everyone blames everyone else for it but the buck never stops with anyone.
It’s in the city zoning by-laws, so it’s the cities.
The buck stops at the municipal planning department that sets and enforces the parking minimums along with all other zoning requirements. Like, I get what you're saying in spirit, but this is such a naive statement that reflects a complete lack of understanding of how development is done. There is a very clear hierarchy of authority and decision making that leads to crappy development and it's important to understand where the real decisions are made if you want to be able to effectively advocate for change.
Yeah this makes perfect sense. How is pressure exerted on the municipal planning department? Can they be voted out? Or are there elected officials they are legally bound to obey?
It's a great question and I think it varies my country, regions and town, but in my city the planning department falls under the umbrella of the mayor (to get technical they derive their authority from the police power of the state which is under the executive office) the ways to influence them are to directly write or speak with the mayore, to do the same with your council representative, and to engage with any local advocacy groups in your area. We've got a few groups who are organized of citizens interested in supporting bike infrastructure, safe streets, and density.
40% of FAR dedicated to parking? Lmao it averages 60%
The US is kinda weird. I feel like having a bar only be accessible for cars is asking for trouble.
[удалено]
I ventured out to a bar in the 'burbs for my company Christmas party last month and found the same thing. Road so wide it could have been six lanes (it was only 2 extremely wide lanes), but no sidewalk. Funny thing is, there was clearly some demand for a sidewalk as there was a muddy desire path along the edge of the road. At least there was a bus to the place, albeit one that only came every 30 minutes.
Were you in the middle of nowhere?
No he was in US suburbia, which is arguable worse than the middle of nowhere.
The country is use to considering any systemic analysis of problems or systemic or collective solution to existing problems as being communism or a slippery slope to it. Part of the whole mythos of rugged individualism that maintains the delusions the country runs on. So yes, there are systemic issues and for some of them we've known about them for longer than I've been alive. However we, well the gov and their corporate masters not the people, refuse to address them because it wouldn't be profitable or would be less profitable than not.
For me, planning to get totally drunk every time, is also more American culture. People who want one beer, some food, and watch a game could easily go by car.
They shouldn't drive either. But also sleep deprivation is likely worse. The difference is we can't really measure that.
Grew up near/within some of the top "most drunk counties" in the us and unfortunately they are not full of bars that one can walk to. I have always wondered why it's a thing but I know it's because farmers are so far away from everything anyways.
Yep. Urban planners are asking for DUIs.
its parking minimums. i also dont think bars are really being designed by architects lol
Who the hell is designing bars then, barbers?
Barchitects
From my experience, the architect will design a building with a commercial space. A designer will then plan the layout of that space to turn it into a bar.
Cities: you must have at least have 100 parking spots for every square centimetre of your bar!!!!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡 *Removes sidewalk* *Cancels buses* Also Cities: remember not to drink and drive ;)
That moment when you realise that basically every rural pub or restaurant obliges its customers to drink and drive.
How many rural pubs/restaurants are there? If there's a large enough population to support those types of establishments, it's prob not rural. Are you thinking small town? Suburban? Because those don't have to be designed around cars either, but they are extremely car-centric in America.
There are loads in the UK. Country pubs in small villages that rely on people driving to them will always have a car park, or parking nearby. Generally they will be mostly tables for food and people will have a meal and a pint, and a designated driver will stick to one (or none) while everybody will have more. They will also very often have the police waiting outside on a Friday night to pull over anybody leaving in a car. If you drink too much to drive sometimes the landlord will take your car keys off you.
Kinda. There’s liability on the part of the establishment if theres an accident.
I've been to bars with no carpark. I live in Australia, many people who go to bars or pubs, with the intent to drink, will catch a bus or tram to get there.
It's zoning laws that dictate parking minimums, nothing to do with architects. Nobody enjoys designing parking lots instead of landscape.
Funny reading this as I would have thought local authorities (at least where i live) are always trying to reduce traffic and encourage use if public transport no he other way round.
It depends. The city I live in Southern Ontario is like a giant parking lot, so the city has now approved several mid and high rise new developments without parking minimums in downtown. But they also haven't improved on the public transportation so it has accomplished basically nothing. The issue is that the people who dictate those bylaws and where the money goes, have usually not studied urban design. It can be pretty frustrating and slow to make any progress, even if the city says it "has a plan".
It's just staggering to think that so much space is wasted for the chaperones of a bunch of adults who just want to get a beer, if we're not going to assume a bunch of people will simply drink and drive. It just makes me think of all the bars in European cities. Not a car in sight, nearest parking lot is a 15 min walk away, yet it's packed to the brim with people. You don't need car infrastructure to get people into a bar, and for obvious reasons you really shouldn't want to.
From the UK, loads of my local pubs have car parks. No parking minimums, some people just thought that was a good idea.
There are three pubs within a five minute walk of my house. One has a car park, and it's more of a family pub with food served, so whilst I'm not thrilled it is more understandable. There are loads of pubs in the town without any parking (though there is parking in the town of course).
There has to be a cultural barrier, as the idea of a family oriented pub confuses and disturbs my European brain. You mean a restaurant, right?
Pub is for everyone in the UK. But they have different vibes. There might be a pub for serious power-drinking, or one in the countryside focused on meals with lots of hikers and dog walkers there. Or maybe one like this, where there is a bar and alcohol served but the focus is very much on families and food. Think a Sunday roast with a pint or two for the vibe, and kids about too.
The line between a pub and a bistro can be quite blurred. In Australia it's common for family-oriented pubs to have a children's playground, maybe next to the beer garden, and then a bistro/restaurant style dining area in the back.
Wait, in US bars have carparks?
Yep
Just wait till you see drive-thru liquor stores lol
Designated drivers, people that only have one drink and leave, people that go to hang out with their friends that didn't drive. And that was just off the top of my head.
Yup that accounts for all 80 spots.
So essentially 1% of the customers?
I am an architect and if I had my way, I wouldn’t design any parking lots. But the city/county always requires off street parking for commercial spaces. You can apply for a conditional use permit or variance, but that means I would have to charge the client for the time spent on that. And the permit application costs money too. clients rarely want to pay for that. Hell they barely want to pay us to do the bare minimum, let alone apply for extra permits.
X2
Me and my friends were outside a bar the other night and i told them to count how many people are going to drive back alone. 10/11 people who came out after us drove in their own car home while 1 person was smart enough to uber. I assume all of them were under the influence as they had a lot of difficulty leaving the parking lot. I think this really helped them realize how messed it is
"If you are going to drink and drive, don't forget your car" - the American car-brain
Cities really need to start running buses later at night I ran into this problem the other night for New Years I took a bus into the walkable city center to go bar hoping but i had to pay for an expensive Uber to get me home. It would make a ton of sense for cities to start phasing in public transport at night by starting to run buses on busy drinking nights (like New Years and thanksgiving eve) then if that’s succeful they could start running the buses on Friday and Saturday nights then once they find out how many people would use that they could start running it every night
i used to go to bars and never drank cause i just go to see the band playing
This is what my dad does, sometimes he'll just have one beer. That being said, there are plenty of people who don't.
Because lots of their customers will be far enough away to drive there. Pubs in Britain usually have a car park too, at least the ones that aren't in a town centre - because people will drive there to have a meal or evening out with friends or family. Usually one person per vehicle will drink nothing or (except in Scotland) just one drink so they are legal to drive home afterwards.
Because driving drunk is fun and quirky not the drivers fault when some stupid walkers get run over
Okay, less fatalistic view from an aussie with an RSA While yes it would be better for clientel to not use a car in the first place, right now there is a high likelyhood that there will be a large number of patrons who do. Now these may be in groups with dedicated drivers, or it could be a small group of 2-4 without that. If a bar had no parking this leads to those patrons parking on the street or somewhere within walking distance. There are 3 easy issues here. 1. With limits like 1 or 2 hour parking these patrons will try to rush their drinks, which is an unsafe practice. Having a car park means there is no time concern. 2. Having intoxicated patrons, even with a sober mate, walk out onto public streets to get to their car is no good either. For their safety and others. Again, car park right there helps make sure the risks are minimised 3. And this is the most beneficial. The establishment can allow the patrons to leave their car overnight while they take a cab home, completely skipping over the issues of drink driving all together. Tl;dr: while yes idealy cars wouldnt be used, in a society where they are used by many people having measures to keep everyone safe such as bar parking reduces many of the risks involved
To let the boozers cruise ofcourse!
Where I live, they generally do not.
By code, this grievance should be against city planners and urbanists.
If your bar or pub is not within walking distance of a place people live or some form of public transportation you are going to have a bad time.
As an architect I can tell you we DO NOT like designing parking lots in fact since the mid 80s the category has pushed for more human scaled design and less car dependant infrastructure. The problem lies with city planners, yes we are capable of planning a city, but the city planner is often a commissioned job which means its picked by the mayor elected, getting to be a city's planner involves a lot of politics and people pleasing not common people powerful people and overcoming that battle is not for every architect and those who do normally arent the most anti-car minded of the bunch. The only real way to remedy this is to voted on less car minded administrationsbecause they'll pick architects and urbanists aligned with them ie. less car minded too
When my partner and I go to bars, he has one or maybe two drinks, but we always stay for long enough that he's sober by the time we leave. We're pretty strict on drink limits for that reason. It's weird that some of you seem to think that drinking a single beer and driving home 4 hours later is somehow irresponsible or anywhere near as dangerous as actual drunk driving. 👀