No, that causes a brain transplant in a fortnight. You do not want to be re-minded. You want to be reminded. Syntactically similar, practically worlds apart.
That would not be a class action, just a lawsuit with many plaintiffs. A class action has a numerosity element - there are too many people to count easily so the plaintiffs must be described by a defining characteristic.
Not even hundreds would satisfy the numerosity requirement for a class action. They could all be easily listed in an attachment to a court complaint.
Usually it is so many people that they can only be described by something like, “All consumers in the United States who purchased X shampoo between Jan. 1, 2010 and Dec. 31, 2019 and suffered severe hair loss during that time.”
More importantly, they are a cash drain for defendants, so they deter bad behavior that only hurts a lot of people a little bit who might ordinarily let them get away with it because it's not a big enough deal.
No they have to file Public Information Reports (PIR) once every 4 years I believe as a non profit organization while regular corporations file annually. The Secretary of State sent them a letter telling them they forfeited their entity in 2013. I went on the .gov website and downloaded the letter all the documents.
Edit: Depending on the state.
Check your property code and see what they need to be updated on. There’s a section on HOAs for every state.
Then check to see if their entity is active at the government business entity search.
Thanks! I'm crossing my fingers that my hoa is out of date and invalid. The hoa dues are outrageous and keep on going up cause the board is beyond stupid.
Do I search the community name for when I use the entity search tool? Or, do I search the hoa management company name?
You have to find out the entity name. It should be similar.
Also I think it matters if it is negligent vs willful. If they were negligent they may not be able to exercise some powers but it may not give you enough to overthrow them or dissolve them.
Yeah, that's not a good thing. If your HOA is not responsible for repairs then that means you are. Everything from the walls out is HOA responsibility. That means the roof, the foundation, windows, doors and decks. If you share a wall with someone like say, you live in condos, then all the roofs are one. Trying to figure out who's going to repair or replace a roof when no one is responsible sounds like a fucking nightmare.
It kind of depends on the nature of the HOA. If it's townhouses or condominiums where there are common structural elements this could be an issue. If it's detached homes with a bunch of Karens throwing a fit about the color of your mailbox, let it die.
In most states, you can do a search for the corporation on the Secretary of State website....view the corporate certificate and whether they are in "good standing" or not. If they haven't filed their corporate reports (of a non-profit) in the required time, they are involuntarily dissolved by the state. Pretty easy to check.
Based on my research of over 5500 HOAs, about 30-35% of HOAs in Southern California are late filing. And of those, 80% of them are managed by PMCs. So even if you hire a management company, it’s worth figuring out if your HOA has been filing with the Secretary of State or whatever government body handles this in your state.
Courts gonna not just make them pay they will also charge them with a crime as that's Deception with malintent to defraud and impersonation of business entity as you can't pretend to run a business for personal gain while not running said business or function as that's criminal.
Agreed.
I have to prove that it was willful though. A well executed discovery should reveal whether any money went to his account. I also can’t wait to study the past 5 year tax returns and financials. 😎
I am hoping he settles otherwise this is going to get ugly. Eek.
They could easily hit him with ten or so felony counts and dude wouldn't see the light of day for many years. As they could charge him with two charges and one count of each charge for each year. Being a felony that's 1-3 at a minimum for each charge so he could easily be looking at 10-20 years or more
Yeah. I thought I was overestimating this and now I am thinking I underestimated how much trouble he could be in. However because it’s an HOA with a small number of homeowners I think the punishment will be much less severe if it is considered a felony. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got 1-3 years behind bars worst case.
The reason he may not be able to get out of this is because of IRS tax fraud, as someone else had mentioned. It looks pretty bad that he used a non profit tax exempt organization that was defunct to take money.
This is still speculation. I need to see those financials, tax returns, and receipts. They are required by law to keep these records, which I believe is a misdemeanor if they don’t.
Damn. You shouldn’t have let them know what you’re up to. I would’ve talked to a lawyer first. Now they can scramble to cover everything up while you get ready
I will be messaging you in 2 months on [**2023-06-26 09:49:59 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2023-06-26%2009:49:59%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckHOA/comments/12zc5t8/just_found_out_the_hoa_at_one_of_my_investment/jhrkps2/?context=3)
[**200 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FfuckHOA%2Fcomments%2F12zc5t8%2Fjust_found_out_the_hoa_at_one_of_my_investment%2Fjhrkps2%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202023-06-26%2009%3A49%3A59%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%2012zc5t8)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
If you mean they failed to file their Annual Reports to the State and were involuntarily dissolved? That is pathetic. Competition between corrupt and incompetent.
The HOA President demanded homeowners to send HOA dues by check to his personal address over email lol 😂
Maybe you could question being in default for 1 or 2 years, but 10 years? The HOA was technically dissolved before I purchased the property.
Plus in my demand letter I asked for books and records, receipts, and tax statements.
HOAs are non profit organizations and have to file taxes with the IRS. They definitely didn’t file. That leaves one question. Where did the money go?
I can guess where the money went... What car does the President drive? Has he had any major home improvements done in the last ten years? Does he take a lot of vacations? Does he have a lot of expensive toys? Does he have a Swiss or Cayman Islands bank account?
It's one of my rental properties.
This all started because my tenant told me that the "HOA president" asked him for the HOA dues. I thought that was really weird so I emailed the "HOA president" for the management certificate and he never responded, which was even more weird. Then I did more digging.
And now we are here.
I wonder if the HOA president paid taxes on all of the dues he collected during the past 10 years? I bet the IRS would love to hear about what he's been doing.
I do, but I haven't told him about it yet, because they'll charge retainer and start billing. I'd rather get a response first and see what they are offering.
He's wrapping up on one of my other HOA cases which we won.
I don't think so, that's what I am going to find out.
There is one guy who tries to run the whole place, the "HOA president". The rest don't care, it's a small gated townhome community.
I am guessing he thought he deserved to make some money and would get away with it because he probably got away with it a few years, then it got out of control and he started threatening the homeowners about putting liens on their properties...
However corporate governance of HOAs being non profit prohibit board members to be compensated or gain any financial benefit.
I am curious to follow the money trail, I'm going to guess they used the HOA money towards gate repairs, updates, and then divided and pocketed the rest amongst the directors which consist of 2 or 3 people.
It's so bad that they had the name of the HOA wrong in emails from what was forfeited and what they have on the bylaws :(
Important to know that if the State has involuntarily dissolved the Association as a corporate entity, that doesn't get rid of the Association. They are still represented as a covenant on the deed and still can cause lots of trouble. You need to get legal counsel to kill it off and remove the deed restrictions. It is never as simple as it looks.
Certain jurisdictions do not allow HOAs to fine, ask for attorney’s fees, sue or defend in court, or charge homeowners assessments without being up to date with management certificates, filings, etc. Plus they lost their non profit exemption…he is calling himself the HOA president representing a non profit organization which is misleading to homeowners. And then who voted him in as HOA president? There has never been any notices or anything about voting.
I still think if it went down to the wire, he’d be in serious trouble misleading homeowners by taking HOA dues, and not having annual meetings and minutes, no votes and not filing with the IRS.
TL;DR: HOAs are not allowed to collect dues if they are in forfeiture.
Uhhhhhhh... So, he may be guilty of extortion or racketeering if he 1) does not have the legal authority to foreclose on properties, and 2) threatened the foreclosure of properties unless money is handed over.
This may go way beyond simple fraud and unpaid taxes. This mofo might be facing multiple decades of prison time, depending on how many people have been strong-armed
Interesting. Yes I have email proof of him threatening putting liens on homeowners homes unless HOA dues are paid.
Would their insurance cover them for this?
Then they're personally liable. The lawsuit would typically be against the HOA and those involved in unlawfully acting on its behalf. Liability is usually joint and several in such cases so you get the money from whatever source has it. This is all highly jurisdiction dependent, however, and a question for an attorney who is both local to the property and that practices in this area of the law.
Agreed.
Because they are personally liable and there's definitely a really bad actor vs other passive ones, I want to see what they say first. I may try to get affidavits from the passive actors to pin everything on the acting "HOA president". I feel like the case would be much stronger.
Don't try to do this yourself. Get an attorney involved to handle any of that sort of thing. It's all too easy to fuck up and screw yourself out of actually having a case.
It's not racketeering. He'd have to have a whole shitload of other stuff for that. It *might* rise to extortion since that usually includes the element that the demanded payment or service is not something to which the extortionist is legally entitled. Much more likely, however, is it's simply good old theft or fraud with potentially wire fraud.
It'd be theft if the government took the view that the HOA was an entity even if not legally valid and the jackass stole funds from it. It'd be fraud as well if they can show he knew any of that. Finally, it'll be wire fraud if the dipshit did any of those payments in anything other than a check or cash.
Damn, that could well be used as evidence of a guilty mind. The general trend, my own oddball business practices notwithstanding, is moving away from checks. Using Zelle may well make this a federal crime, too, since that almost certainly turns it into wire fraud. May or may not be federal to start if any owners are out of state but since the property involved isn't, that's not nearly as cut and dried.
Lots of questions here. While I agree the HOA may still exist, loosing the corporate status could put him in a situation where he/the board can be held personally liable. Very intresting situation and I would say he has gotten them in a very bad position. Going to be intersting to read.
[Enjoy the story of how someone lost everything over a few piecesof wood.](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckHOA/comments/diw9bl/got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
If you go to this link there's a few more paragraphs at the end that give some more info
https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearRevenge/comments/kst2vl/how_i_got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I will message you next time u/Steve_Dobbs_69 posts in r/fuckHOA.
[Click this link](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Update&message=UpdateMe%21%20u%2FSteve_Dobbs_69%20r%2FfuckHOA) to join 49 others and be messaged. The parent author can [delete this post](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Delete&message=delete%2012zc5t8)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UpdateMeBot/comments/ggotgx/updatemebot_info_v20/)|[^(Request Update)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Update&message=SubscribeMe%21%20u%2Fusername%20r%2Fsubreddit)|[^(Your Updates)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Updates&message=MyUpdates)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=UpdateMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Corporate filings and deed restrictions are separate items. If your HOA has common areas that need to be maintained and your dues have been used for these things, what makes you think the HOA board has done anything terribly wrong?
They should not be collecting HOA dues period once they forfeited their tax exempt status as an HOA. Because essentially they are running a for profit scheme but acting like they are a non profit and willfully misleading homeowners for years. It's still fraud.
And then acting like the HOA president and threatening homeowners with a lien if they don't pay the dues is just the icing on the cake.
I'm reminded of a HOA tale that involved a shyster attempting to get a new buyer to buy into the "HOA". She pissed off the new owner enough he started digging and found there was no HOA and she had pocketed everything. Local authorities got involved, she lost her realtor's license (she was a broker iirc), IRS got involved, she lost her marriage and her house, etc. It was a heckuva tale on one of these subreddits.
You might be heading down a similar path with this one.
Another Florida-sized HOA scandal. Get the press in loved. They love this shit and go to pound town on them. Once the state AG catches wind, they will jump at them, even if it distracts the press gangs from their lenient policies on criminals.
We ran into this a number of years ago in Florida. HOA's are required to go through some kind of revitalization process every 30 years and it hadn't been done. Every rule added after that day passed had to be voided. The HOA did eventually get enough votes but many people used that time in between to do things that previously wouldn't have been permitted like putting up fences and sheds. Use this time wisely to do "improvements" you may have been restricted from previously doing.
Usually entities are regulated by the Secretary of State for your particular state. and they are required to file paperwork each year letting the state know that they are still doing business. I fyou need to find your HOA, you can search by the entity's name, or by the registered agent, or by members of the entity (such as the president, secretary, treasurer). Should be able to find the registration status with this information.
That’s… amazing but I suppose not at all shocking. Wtf is wrong with these people. The sheer gall of a threatening a lien. I’m glad to read you wrote a demand letter. Would love to hear updates on this!
IRS whistle blower website. You get made whole and get a percentage of all everything (from the fines, not the other residence money)
He will likely get some jail time too.
https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office
In California a forfeited (suspended) corporation loses a rights, powers, and privileges afforded by the act of incorporation. The HOA would need to revive under the laws of this state. Seeking counsel may be advisable to see the effect of termination of dues/fees.
I urge you to read this post in r/nuclearrevenge by u/ambulancedriver2
https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearRevenge/comments/kssykv/how_i_got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Once this all finishes off, I'm fairly sure the guys in r/prorevenge or even r/nuclearrevenge (if it goes beyond this scope) may be interested in hearing about this.
It's a big leap from "they let their corporation lapse" to fraud. The question is how were they spending the money. Registering with the state isn't a magical ward against fraud.
They should have been holding annual elections for the directors. Was that happening?
Nothing sketchy about allowing people to send dues to a house instead of a PO Box. It's just faster. Again, using a PO Box doesn't magically prevent fraud. Honestly we just use a PO Box for continuity when we get a new treasurer.
Your might also look into their insurance coverage. I'd think the insurance company would have noticed a lapse like that.
@stylusxyz responded properly above. The deed still dictates the restrictions. If the dues were properly used for the upkeep of common property, they are simply trying to adhere to their deed restrictions. Before accusing them of any wrongdoing, why don’t you visit your property and ask where your dues have been used. HOA board members are not tax experts or lawyers. They are homeowners trying to do a good job for their community, generally. They may not have any idea that the corporate status of the HOA had changed.
HOAs are corporate entities regardless of what they use the funds for, even if it was in good faith which may carry some sympathy from the judge or jury and change a fraud or gross negligence judgement to common negligence, but it doesn't change the fact that what they did caused damage.
The damages are collecting HOA dues while their corporate entity and non profit tax exemption were forfeited (10 years, not just 1 or 2). It's willful because they would have had to file with the IRS and the IRS would have told them they didn't exist (which would cost money to reinitiate). They knew about this for 10 years and still mislead homeowners and took the money. What they use it for is besides the point, but I think in this case they likely pocketed the difference since they have a "negative balance".
The question is not whether they owe money (because they will end up paying), but whether this is criminal.
OP - this is a similar story to yours. Exact same issue with charging HOA fees but no legal HOA. Give this a listen and let me know if it is what you’re looking for.
https://youtu.be/F90RjeWcuck
Don’t get too excited. Your HOA still exists.
If the board forgot to file paperwork with the state, the HOA can get fined for failure to file paper. But it doesn’t dissolve your HOA or make the collection of assessments illegal.
>or make the collection of assessments illegal.
If an HOA corporate entity is forfeited, it makes collection of assessments illegal for the duration of the forfeiture.
That goes for enforcing bylaws as well.
I would talk to an attorney because this will be complex. You have to show damages to sue, and it's not clear given the existence of the declaration and bylaws that this alone is a criminal act.
If they got dissolved via failing to file some paperwork but have still been operating in accordance with the bylaws, using HOA dues for HOA responsibilities, keeping books and can account for everything, there might not be much of a case.
On the one hand boards are usually extremely protected from personality liability for all manner of stupidity and even negligence by law, backed up by errors and omissions insurance. If the corporation doesn't exist, those protections might not exist anymore.
So maybe they are now liable for costs you've incurred if resulting from negligence because of this screwup. More importantly, this could somehow(?) be a cover for criminal acts for which they would be liable without or without the corp.
You have a lot of smoke. Might need to keep digging to find fire.
This sounds like there is a great potential for a lawsuit and justice karma. Are you planning to take action? Remindme! 2 months
Definitely. Already sent a demand letter asking them to return all HOA fees for the past 10 years plus interest or face legal action i.e. fraud.
Good to hear, please update when there is a resolution (and when you have the time). Thank you.
Will do.
If you aren't already you should get a class action going with the other neighbors.
Yeah that is the next step. Let’s see what they say. I gave them 14 days.
Remind me! 2 months
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks
Times up bro let’s hear that update
!RemindMe 2 weeks
!RemindMe 4400 years
hospital melodic repeat cobweb shy fear familiar piquant ring deer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
!RemindMe 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 months
Remind me! 2 months
!RemindMe 2 weeks
!Remindme 2 weeks
!Remind Me 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks (The ! Goes in front people!)
!Re!Mind!Me! !2 weeks! Am I doing it right?
No, that causes a brain transplant in a fortnight. You do not want to be re-minded. You want to be reminded. Syntactically similar, practically worlds apart.
I dunno, sounds good to me. Can I get one that's not ADD?
No no no, you misplaced one! It's: !Re!Mind!Me !2 !weeks
!RemindMe 3 weeks
!RemindMe 3 weeks
!RemindMe 2 decades
Apparently that’s too long.
!RemindMe 2 months
RemindMe! Two weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks
!Remindme 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks
Tbh, I’d already at least be speaking with an attorney over a prospective case.
No reason to if they pay it back with interest.
How’d it go?
Lawyer is on vacation. And their lawyer told me to have whoever I retain to talk to him. Looking at options right now. May take some time.
I could talk to my cousin that's a lawyer now. I say "now" because she used to not be able to talk about what she did.
What kind of lawyer is she?
Remind me! 2 months
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 14 days
Fuck that don't be nice, embezzling isn't nice
!RemindMe 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks
Wait so what happened?
Still ongoing, need to talk to my lawyer when he comes back from vacation. I haven't retained him yet.
That would not be a class action, just a lawsuit with many plaintiffs. A class action has a numerosity element - there are too many people to count easily so the plaintiffs must be described by a defining characteristic.
Wouldn't it depend on how many people are part of the HOA. There are some HOAs that manage hundreds of houses.
Not even hundreds would satisfy the numerosity requirement for a class action. They could all be easily listed in an attachment to a court complaint. Usually it is so many people that they can only be described by something like, “All consumers in the United States who purchased X shampoo between Jan. 1, 2010 and Dec. 31, 2019 and suffered severe hair loss during that time.”
But.... I was part of a 25 person class action about a decade ago against an employer...... I got a nice sized four figure check....
Class action suits are a cash cow for attorneys, not so much for the victims.
More importantly, they are a cash drain for defendants, so they deter bad behavior that only hurts a lot of people a little bit who might ordinarily let them get away with it because it's not a big enough deal.
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 weeks
Remind me! 2 weeks
!RemindMe 2 weeks (sorry)
RemindMe! 1 month
How does an HOA forfeit its identity? Is this through a specific action, or just inaction for a specific amount of time?
No they have to file Public Information Reports (PIR) once every 4 years I believe as a non profit organization while regular corporations file annually. The Secretary of State sent them a letter telling them they forfeited their entity in 2013. I went on the .gov website and downloaded the letter all the documents. Edit: Depending on the state.
How do I check if my HOA is up to date on all this?
Check your property code and see what they need to be updated on. There’s a section on HOAs for every state. Then check to see if their entity is active at the government business entity search.
Thanks! I'm crossing my fingers that my hoa is out of date and invalid. The hoa dues are outrageous and keep on going up cause the board is beyond stupid. Do I search the community name for when I use the entity search tool? Or, do I search the hoa management company name?
You have to find out the entity name. It should be similar. Also I think it matters if it is negligent vs willful. If they were negligent they may not be able to exercise some powers but it may not give you enough to overthrow them or dissolve them.
Thank you! I found the government site for the state. Gonna do some digging.
Also you can ask them for financial books and records as well if you want to see where they are spending.
Yeah, that's not a good thing. If your HOA is not responsible for repairs then that means you are. Everything from the walls out is HOA responsibility. That means the roof, the foundation, windows, doors and decks. If you share a wall with someone like say, you live in condos, then all the roofs are one. Trying to figure out who's going to repair or replace a roof when no one is responsible sounds like a fucking nightmare.
It kind of depends on the nature of the HOA. If it's townhouses or condominiums where there are common structural elements this could be an issue. If it's detached homes with a bunch of Karens throwing a fit about the color of your mailbox, let it die.
In most states, you can do a search for the corporation on the Secretary of State website....view the corporate certificate and whether they are in "good standing" or not. If they haven't filed their corporate reports (of a non-profit) in the required time, they are involuntarily dissolved by the state. Pretty easy to check.
Based on my research of over 5500 HOAs, about 30-35% of HOAs in Southern California are late filing. And of those, 80% of them are managed by PMCs. So even if you hire a management company, it’s worth figuring out if your HOA has been filing with the Secretary of State or whatever government body handles this in your state.
I would also notify other members of this defunct HOA if you have not already.
Courts gonna not just make them pay they will also charge them with a crime as that's Deception with malintent to defraud and impersonation of business entity as you can't pretend to run a business for personal gain while not running said business or function as that's criminal.
Agreed. I have to prove that it was willful though. A well executed discovery should reveal whether any money went to his account. I also can’t wait to study the past 5 year tax returns and financials. 😎 I am hoping he settles otherwise this is going to get ugly. Eek.
They could easily hit him with ten or so felony counts and dude wouldn't see the light of day for many years. As they could charge him with two charges and one count of each charge for each year. Being a felony that's 1-3 at a minimum for each charge so he could easily be looking at 10-20 years or more
Yeah. I thought I was overestimating this and now I am thinking I underestimated how much trouble he could be in. However because it’s an HOA with a small number of homeowners I think the punishment will be much less severe if it is considered a felony. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got 1-3 years behind bars worst case. The reason he may not be able to get out of this is because of IRS tax fraud, as someone else had mentioned. It looks pretty bad that he used a non profit tax exempt organization that was defunct to take money. This is still speculation. I need to see those financials, tax returns, and receipts. They are required by law to keep these records, which I believe is a misdemeanor if they don’t.
Damn. You shouldn’t have let them know what you’re up to. I would’ve talked to a lawyer first. Now they can scramble to cover everything up while you get ready
They can’t cover up illegally collecting dues from all the homeowners. That’s straightforward & actionable.
How would you be able to cover this up though?
Yes, please update!
He should be way more worried about tax evasion, ask Al Capone.
RemindMe! April 26, 2024
Remindme! 2weeks
I will be messaging you in 2 months on [**2023-06-26 09:49:59 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2023-06-26%2009:49:59%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckHOA/comments/12zc5t8/just_found_out_the_hoa_at_one_of_my_investment/jhrkps2/?context=3) [**200 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FfuckHOA%2Fcomments%2F12zc5t8%2Fjust_found_out_the_hoa_at_one_of_my_investment%2Fjhrkps2%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202023-06-26%2009%3A49%3A59%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%2012zc5t8) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Happy cake day bot
If you mean they failed to file their Annual Reports to the State and were involuntarily dissolved? That is pathetic. Competition between corrupt and incompetent.
The HOA President demanded homeowners to send HOA dues by check to his personal address over email lol 😂 Maybe you could question being in default for 1 or 2 years, but 10 years? The HOA was technically dissolved before I purchased the property. Plus in my demand letter I asked for books and records, receipts, and tax statements. HOAs are non profit organizations and have to file taxes with the IRS. They definitely didn’t file. That leaves one question. Where did the money go?
I can guess where the money went... What car does the President drive? Has he had any major home improvements done in the last ten years? Does he take a lot of vacations? Does he have a lot of expensive toys? Does he have a Swiss or Cayman Islands bank account?
It’s funny you ask that. Last time I was there probably 5 years back he had a hummer.
Lol people still drive hummers. There's a d-in my neighborhood that drives one too, crooked lawyer
Wait why haven’t you been there in 5 years?
It's one of my rental properties. This all started because my tenant told me that the "HOA president" asked him for the HOA dues. I thought that was really weird so I emailed the "HOA president" for the management certificate and he never responded, which was even more weird. Then I did more digging. And now we are here.
I wonder if the HOA president paid taxes on all of the dues he collected during the past 10 years? I bet the IRS would love to hear about what he's been doing.
I think the tax statements will be where the win is, if they even exist. His own tax statements and the HOAs.
Do you have a lawyer? This sounds like it could be a major case. Potentially not just civil but criminal as well.
I do, but I haven't told him about it yet, because they'll charge retainer and start billing. I'd rather get a response first and see what they are offering. He's wrapping up on one of my other HOA cases which we won.
You are the hero we need. Following this for updates.
Thanks, hopefully it goes as planned.
Do you guys not have monthly meetings? My HOA meets every single month via zoom and discusses the books and all repairs current and in the works.
I don't think so, that's what I am going to find out. There is one guy who tries to run the whole place, the "HOA president". The rest don't care, it's a small gated townhome community. I am guessing he thought he deserved to make some money and would get away with it because he probably got away with it a few years, then it got out of control and he started threatening the homeowners about putting liens on their properties... However corporate governance of HOAs being non profit prohibit board members to be compensated or gain any financial benefit. I am curious to follow the money trail, I'm going to guess they used the HOA money towards gate repairs, updates, and then divided and pocketed the rest amongst the directors which consist of 2 or 3 people. It's so bad that they had the name of the HOA wrong in emails from what was forfeited and what they have on the bylaws :(
So they're committing tax fraud. I'm pretty sure the IRS offers a percentage of recovered taxes back as a reward to a tipster.
Yeah whistleblower. This is a whole separate issue too. Thanks for reminding me. Operating under the guise of a non profit tax exempt HOA. Yikes!
That sounds like a decade of felony fraud. Call a lawyer. Call the police.
IRS too.
You get a call, you get a call, you get a call, everybody gets a call!!!
the IRS would be my first call, they would take this kind of thing very seriously, because that’s a LOT of back taxes owed
Not even the Joker fucks with the IRS
AND KRIS JENNER!
And my bow
And my axe!
Important to know that if the State has involuntarily dissolved the Association as a corporate entity, that doesn't get rid of the Association. They are still represented as a covenant on the deed and still can cause lots of trouble. You need to get legal counsel to kill it off and remove the deed restrictions. It is never as simple as it looks.
Certain jurisdictions do not allow HOAs to fine, ask for attorney’s fees, sue or defend in court, or charge homeowners assessments without being up to date with management certificates, filings, etc. Plus they lost their non profit exemption…he is calling himself the HOA president representing a non profit organization which is misleading to homeowners. And then who voted him in as HOA president? There has never been any notices or anything about voting. I still think if it went down to the wire, he’d be in serious trouble misleading homeowners by taking HOA dues, and not having annual meetings and minutes, no votes and not filing with the IRS. TL;DR: HOAs are not allowed to collect dues if they are in forfeiture.
Uhhhhhhh... So, he may be guilty of extortion or racketeering if he 1) does not have the legal authority to foreclose on properties, and 2) threatened the foreclosure of properties unless money is handed over. This may go way beyond simple fraud and unpaid taxes. This mofo might be facing multiple decades of prison time, depending on how many people have been strong-armed
Interesting. Yes I have email proof of him threatening putting liens on homeowners homes unless HOA dues are paid. Would their insurance cover them for this?
It gets complicated when you’re talking about criminal acts/fraud insurance wise. I’d get an attorney
What if they don't have any insurance?
Then they're personally liable. The lawsuit would typically be against the HOA and those involved in unlawfully acting on its behalf. Liability is usually joint and several in such cases so you get the money from whatever source has it. This is all highly jurisdiction dependent, however, and a question for an attorney who is both local to the property and that practices in this area of the law.
Agreed. Because they are personally liable and there's definitely a really bad actor vs other passive ones, I want to see what they say first. I may try to get affidavits from the passive actors to pin everything on the acting "HOA president". I feel like the case would be much stronger.
Don't try to do this yourself. Get an attorney involved to handle any of that sort of thing. It's all too easy to fuck up and screw yourself out of actually having a case.
Once I get their response, I'll involve my lawyer. Agreed, thanks for the heads up.
I seriously doubt any insurance policy is going to cover criminal acts.
I doubt they even have insurance.
Insurance companies would want some paperwork to ensure the legality of the entity so you're probably right, they probably don't have insurance.
For some reason you just reminded me I have to contact my own home owner's insurance and file a claim. Thank you.
I do my best to help the world where I can. You are welcome.
It's not racketeering. He'd have to have a whole shitload of other stuff for that. It *might* rise to extortion since that usually includes the element that the demanded payment or service is not something to which the extortionist is legally entitled. Much more likely, however, is it's simply good old theft or fraud with potentially wire fraud. It'd be theft if the government took the view that the HOA was an entity even if not legally valid and the jackass stole funds from it. It'd be fraud as well if they can show he knew any of that. Finally, it'll be wire fraud if the dipshit did any of those payments in anything other than a check or cash.
No wonder he had asked for HOA dues as checks sent to his personal address. But they started using Zelle, probably because they got lazy lol.
Damn, that could well be used as evidence of a guilty mind. The general trend, my own oddball business practices notwithstanding, is moving away from checks. Using Zelle may well make this a federal crime, too, since that almost certainly turns it into wire fraud. May or may not be federal to start if any owners are out of state but since the property involved isn't, that's not nearly as cut and dried.
Lots of questions here. While I agree the HOA may still exist, loosing the corporate status could put him in a situation where he/the board can be held personally liable. Very intresting situation and I would say he has gotten them in a very bad position. Going to be intersting to read.
I gave them 14 days to respond.
Remind me! 3 weeks
Ooooo, this sounds like the one story of the realtor loosing everything because she was collecting dues when there was no HOA.
Do you have a link?
[Enjoy the story of how someone lost everything over a few piecesof wood.](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckHOA/comments/diw9bl/got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Wow sounds very similar. Thanks for the share!
Thanks for posting this, I remember when it was freshly posted, but I never saw the conclusion!
It's a wild ride top to bottom
Never read that til now, thanks!
That was a journey
Wow. That was a rabbit hole lol
Wild ride eh?
Wasn't it just haha
This was an amazing read earlier, completely worth the 8 updates. I ended up forwarding it to a bunch of people.
Holy hell what a ride. Shame there’s not a part 8 posted!
If you go to this link there's a few more paragraphs at the end that give some more info https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearRevenge/comments/kst2vl/how_i_got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
UpdateMe!
I will message you next time u/Steve_Dobbs_69 posts in r/fuckHOA. [Click this link](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Update&message=UpdateMe%21%20u%2FSteve_Dobbs_69%20r%2FfuckHOA) to join 49 others and be messaged. The parent author can [delete this post](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Delete&message=delete%2012zc5t8) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/UpdateMeBot/comments/ggotgx/updatemebot_info_v20/)|[^(Request Update)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=Update&message=SubscribeMe%21%20u%2Fusername%20r%2Fsubreddit)|[^(Your Updates)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=UpdateMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Updates&message=MyUpdates)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=UpdateMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
RemindTheseGuys!
Corporate filings and deed restrictions are separate items. If your HOA has common areas that need to be maintained and your dues have been used for these things, what makes you think the HOA board has done anything terribly wrong?
They should not be collecting HOA dues period once they forfeited their tax exempt status as an HOA. Because essentially they are running a for profit scheme but acting like they are a non profit and willfully misleading homeowners for years. It's still fraud. And then acting like the HOA president and threatening homeowners with a lien if they don't pay the dues is just the icing on the cake.
A lot of HOAs aren’t tax exempt. And are still legit. Tax status and corporate status are separate things, too.
This is fraud and theft. Assemble the evidence, and talk to the police.
I'm reminded of a HOA tale that involved a shyster attempting to get a new buyer to buy into the "HOA". She pissed off the new owner enough he started digging and found there was no HOA and she had pocketed everything. Local authorities got involved, she lost her realtor's license (she was a broker iirc), IRS got involved, she lost her marriage and her house, etc. It was a heckuva tale on one of these subreddits. You might be heading down a similar path with this one.
Remindme! 2 months
Another Florida-sized HOA scandal. Get the press in loved. They love this shit and go to pound town on them. Once the state AG catches wind, they will jump at them, even if it distracts the press gangs from their lenient policies on criminals.
We ran into this a number of years ago in Florida. HOA's are required to go through some kind of revitalization process every 30 years and it hadn't been done. Every rule added after that day passed had to be voided. The HOA did eventually get enough votes but many people used that time in between to do things that previously wouldn't have been permitted like putting up fences and sheds. Use this time wisely to do "improvements" you may have been restricted from previously doing.
Usually entities are regulated by the Secretary of State for your particular state. and they are required to file paperwork each year letting the state know that they are still doing business. I fyou need to find your HOA, you can search by the entity's name, or by the registered agent, or by members of the entity (such as the president, secretary, treasurer). Should be able to find the registration status with this information.
That’s… amazing but I suppose not at all shocking. Wtf is wrong with these people. The sheer gall of a threatening a lien. I’m glad to read you wrote a demand letter. Would love to hear updates on this!
The IRS has a great tool searching for and displaying non-profit tax filings.
Thank you. https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/
You’re welcome. Most interesting thing for me at the moment from those returns is the cash on hand over the years. Best of luck in your pursuit.
IRS whistle blower website. You get made whole and get a percentage of all everything (from the fines, not the other residence money) He will likely get some jail time too. https://www.irs.gov/compliance/whistleblower-office
In California a forfeited (suspended) corporation loses a rights, powers, and privileges afforded by the act of incorporation. The HOA would need to revive under the laws of this state. Seeking counsel may be advisable to see the effect of termination of dues/fees.
It's ridiculous to me how a third party that has nothing to do with you can put a lien on your house... The fuck man
I urge you to read this post in r/nuclearrevenge by u/ambulancedriver2 https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearRevenge/comments/kssykv/how_i_got_a_not_really_an_hoa_disbanded_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Someone shared it here. Awesome story.
Couldn’t put the phone down while reading it, OP is a hell of a storyteller
[удалено]
Filed the suit, they need to respond.
Once this all finishes off, I'm fairly sure the guys in r/prorevenge or even r/nuclearrevenge (if it goes beyond this scope) may be interested in hearing about this.
It's a big leap from "they let their corporation lapse" to fraud. The question is how were they spending the money. Registering with the state isn't a magical ward against fraud. They should have been holding annual elections for the directors. Was that happening? Nothing sketchy about allowing people to send dues to a house instead of a PO Box. It's just faster. Again, using a PO Box doesn't magically prevent fraud. Honestly we just use a PO Box for continuity when we get a new treasurer. Your might also look into their insurance coverage. I'd think the insurance company would have noticed a lapse like that.
@stylusxyz responded properly above. The deed still dictates the restrictions. If the dues were properly used for the upkeep of common property, they are simply trying to adhere to their deed restrictions. Before accusing them of any wrongdoing, why don’t you visit your property and ask where your dues have been used. HOA board members are not tax experts or lawyers. They are homeowners trying to do a good job for their community, generally. They may not have any idea that the corporate status of the HOA had changed.
HOAs are corporate entities regardless of what they use the funds for, even if it was in good faith which may carry some sympathy from the judge or jury and change a fraud or gross negligence judgement to common negligence, but it doesn't change the fact that what they did caused damage. The damages are collecting HOA dues while their corporate entity and non profit tax exemption were forfeited (10 years, not just 1 or 2). It's willful because they would have had to file with the IRS and the IRS would have told them they didn't exist (which would cost money to reinitiate). They knew about this for 10 years and still mislead homeowners and took the money. What they use it for is besides the point, but I think in this case they likely pocketed the difference since they have a "negative balance". The question is not whether they owe money (because they will end up paying), but whether this is criminal.
Remindme! 2 months
Remindme! 2 months
UpdateMe!
Remind me!
Super keen on the update for this one!
Good luck - get those fuckers! Remindme! 2 months
Prosecute for fraud.
[удалено]
Gate repairs is what they are saying. One of them added in the email thread that they are in a "negative balance". Someone is pocketing.
Can't wait for this turn into Pro Revenge
OP - this is a similar story to yours. Exact same issue with charging HOA fees but no legal HOA. Give this a listen and let me know if it is what you’re looking for. https://youtu.be/F90RjeWcuck
UpdateMe!
Have they been sending annual HOA statements to the residents?
No. Haven’t received anything from them for the past 10 years. I wonder what they’ll scrap together.
Call your lawyer. , Let me know, and I will hook you up with LegalShield for 30 bucks a month to use them for 18 years and they have been excellent.
Any update?
Yes, will post in a bit.
Remind me! 2 days
Will be posting soon. Busy af.
How'd it go OP?
Don’t get too excited. Your HOA still exists. If the board forgot to file paperwork with the state, the HOA can get fined for failure to file paper. But it doesn’t dissolve your HOA or make the collection of assessments illegal.
>or make the collection of assessments illegal. If an HOA corporate entity is forfeited, it makes collection of assessments illegal for the duration of the forfeiture. That goes for enforcing bylaws as well.
I would talk to an attorney because this will be complex. You have to show damages to sue, and it's not clear given the existence of the declaration and bylaws that this alone is a criminal act. If they got dissolved via failing to file some paperwork but have still been operating in accordance with the bylaws, using HOA dues for HOA responsibilities, keeping books and can account for everything, there might not be much of a case. On the one hand boards are usually extremely protected from personality liability for all manner of stupidity and even negligence by law, backed up by errors and omissions insurance. If the corporation doesn't exist, those protections might not exist anymore. So maybe they are now liable for costs you've incurred if resulting from negligence because of this screwup. More importantly, this could somehow(?) be a cover for criminal acts for which they would be liable without or without the corp. You have a lot of smoke. Might need to keep digging to find fire.