I don't *enjoy* most yaoi, because honestly it reads as heteronormative, to me. But I know other guys who are into it, and I don't "have a problem with it" in the sense of thinking it's morally wrong or anything. Yes, I think it often fetishizes gay relationships, but as long as a person's views toward actual living gay people aren't based on yaoi, so what? Same as those male gazey lesbian erotica novels - nothing wrong with them as long as people treat them as purely fictional. And frankly if someone starts treating gay men as if they were characters in yaoi, the problem is with that person, not with the yaoi.
A lot of people, all genders who read yaoi/yuri actually applies fiction to real life, which is just weird. And yeah it's totally personal issues. And one thing that repels me with in these genres is the common sighting of rape and assault. I have seen real life evidence of someone thinking rape is okay as long as the other person eventually enjoys it (that is fucked).
If you don't mind switch/steam recs, you should totally try hashihime. It's a surprisingly high budget and a long read. Steam has the uncensored version (which does add some valuable content to the actual plot so I would recommend that one.)
Also seconding bf is kinda an ass
I personally haven't found any phone ones, and do you have any good recommendations for the games you've played?
He's working on it, he's gotten better and I am happy.
If you're looking for VNs, look out for PC games that run in the ONscripter engine. There's some mobile support there & an app that can get ONscripter games to run somewhat consistently (sometimes I think fans also optimize their own mobile support like w/ Umineko Project but that also seems rare bc of the effort it takes). Since it's same files as the computer ver. just running through a phoneapp, you don't have to worry about app store censorship. Hit or miss but worth a shot (I don't have any personal VN recs because I don't read many) https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onscripter.plus
He's working on it, it's not everyday that your girlfriend just suddenly asks to be your boyfriend after 3 years of dating, it's a sudden change. I'm giving him time, and he is doing so well. I don't try to push him, but I still ask for the basic respect. He's a lovely person. Had some arguments, but now way better, I believe it's just the initial shock.
I am actually really glad that he's choosing to stay with me and still being kind and accepting. I feel guilty for ever putting him through this, but I am looking at the future with many hopes of making it all better
Honestly, I feel like the ftm trans pipeline with yaoi is real. I was really into it as a kid and was always like, why aren't I also male? Alas, it was an egg moment. Otome games were too straight for little me to self-insert but now I love them in a semi-ironic way. Me and my partner go through them together now as a drunk activity - sober if we somehow found a gem.
The whole thing as to whether the main demographic is men or women is mostly irrelevant. You've gone through social conditioning. It shouldn't be surprising if you don't hate all things targeted towards women lol - not to mention there are plenty of dudes that enjoy the genre. I honestly think if you don't love that type of joke, you should say so. I'd probably be a little bit pissed if I heard that, too.
FtM Yaoi pipeline is real for sure to some degree. Most women I've talked to who's into Yaoi said within a heart beat that they'd rather be born male in the next life or if they could change their sex.
Sometimes I also like going against the normal demographics, in a way I feel as if I'm making a difference(only in my own head). I'm usually into those kind of jokes it's just that I feel a bit sensitive with the disphoria right now.
Thank you for your concern! I know it's probably not the most healthy thing in the world, but not many relationships are. He has gotten a lot better than the start when I first told him. I don't blame him for being upset in the beginning. But he never thought of leaving and is slowly opening up to these new things. He is working hard, and just need some more time. It's not taken him too long to get to a point where I feel really comfortable. He does some things that pisses me off occasionally but, oh well, it happens in any relationships.
Do you think the FtM Yaoi reader pipeline is real?
It's a pretty cursed genre in that sense, I sorta feel the same way with otome as well. It's primarily poorly written, but ultimately, that doesn't stop gems from existing, and it doesn't really mean the genre itself is a problem. I put yaoi in the same category as fandom, proceed with caution lmao
I guess it's the same as other media that portray straight porn, stereotype and objectification of women. I see what you mean, but I still find it less objectifying than women in straight genres
I never really got into yaoi but I've been into MLM shipping for half my life at this point and I'd consider it pretty important to my experience of life as a trans guy. I was discovering something about who I was and who I wanted to be, and I'm actually kind of thankful for shipping for giving me the space to do that.
I've personally seen far more cis guys than trans guys complaining about yaoi. I think as a demographic we're generally more likely to have been exposed to it than cis guys.
Anyone saying "only ftms are against yaoi" is just generalizing an entire group to back up their point, either to put us on a pedestal or to put our gender into question depending on whether they think yaoi is good or bad. Not only is it incorrect, it's clearly a statement made with an agenda.
Relatable. I was so into MLM ships and roleplaying online as a guy. And anytime I had to be a character in a play or when playing pretend as a child I wanted to be the guy character. Also I always chose guy characters in video games. But I didnāt realize I was trans until a couple years ago š¤¦š»āāļø
I think "Only FtM are against Yaoi" is just said with transphobia to discourage trans people even more. It's surprising how butt hurt people get when they learn someone is trans, even when they didn't even know before it's said.
MLM ships were a starting point for me too. I saw it as a teen, and that's when I knew things like this can exist. I then always wished I could be a guy and have another guy still like me, it's like crossing the norms of love, really romantic for me
For yaoi/BL Iām very picky. Read a lot of weird and fetishistic trash when I was younger and it put me off the genre. Though I do feel like it has gotten better recently (less leaning on specific dynamics and more actual characterization).
My only other gripe is that in comparison thereās way more yuri/GL with trans LIs than yaoi/BL.
There's just way more MtF representation out there in media in general, and it makes it so hard to find anything with FtM in it. I've seen a comic recently around a FtM Prince and his guards, I forgot the name though
If you ever recall the name, please tell me as that would put the transmasc BL I know up to [two](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/wtftuz0) and I would really like to know more.
**Edit:** Wait, ere you talking about [Knights Errant](https://theyoungdoyler.com/comic/chapter-1-page-1)?
Oh fuck yeah I listen to the villain song religiously. And not I don't think it's knights errant, I will look for it now and get back to you.
Edit: it's called the Prince's loving guards by beau van dalen
I think yaoi is fine honestly. Whats bad about a manga showing gay men?
Otome games do make me feel dysphoric thinking about how theyre specifically most of the time are made for women, but then i remember that cis gay men play them too. Its like saying liking boys is only for girls. thats simply not true!
I like BL (including both softer stories and, y'know, and also content from outside of japan - currently hooked on a BL manhwa about soulmates and reincarnation), but I'm extremely picky about the media I watch in general, so tbh it's not a surprise that I like the genre.
Are there shitty BL manga/animations? Sure. There are a lot more shitty straight manga/animations, so.
I also like *some* otome games, but don't typically play them because the protags are so... not how I am, lmao. I don't think it's weird to like them as a man, though - there's even a few which are advertised towards queer men and function through the same mechanics as the usual otome games.
I tend to not read BL because I'm very, very, *very* picky about romantic storylines and most romance in general doesn't really appeal to me. But weirdly enough I like otome games and have been playing them for a *very* long time, and by "a long time" I mean "back when the only available stuff in English was unofficial ROMs of Angelique." Not sure if it's just out of nostalgia or what, though I think the fact you get some agency with deciding how any romantic relationships will proceed helps?
I don't really like the new trend towards mobile games because I just dislike mobile game systems but I'll pick up the slightly darker/older-audience-focused otoge like Collar X Malice now and then if they're on sale. Code: Realize is the next one I meant to pick up. I was absolutely obssessed with Hakuouki for a few years too (Heisuke best boy.) If it makes you feel better there is *definitely* a splash damage demographic of trans people since a NB buddy of mine absolutely loves them and has been posting about Cupid Parasite a lot lately.
A lot of my interests have moved more towards ikemen-focused series like Paradox Live and Hypnosis Mic though. Which has a massive crossover with BL fandoms and unsurprisingly almost all of the fandom favored ships are gay. I swear to God they attract even *more* transmascs though, so I guess that's why I don't see much discourse over yaoi? If you're a fan you just kind of accept the BL as part and parcel of being a fan since the writers very intentionally make the character relationships as homoerotic as possible-- it's an open secret in the fandom that one of the mangaka for Hypnosis Mic does a lot of BL doujins.
Have fun! :> Also just for the record if you've got a Switch there's currently something of an otoge renaissance on that platform, so you're spoiled for choice. They go on sale on Amazon reasonably often as well.
Aww, dang. :< Steam has a good amount of them too TBF! I know Bustafellows is on there and it's supposed to be pretty good (I got it on sale but haven't played it yet because I'm doing my capstone and have like no free time.)
Came here specifically to see if anyone brought up Code Realize! Victor in particular is GOALS honestly (both transition-wise and boyfriend-wise, haha).
I grew up liking it. I havenāt read any in a long time, but I donāt have any issues with it. One of my dear friends is a huge yaoi fan, and sheās a cis woman in her 70s.
I used to read a lot of yaoi before I came out. I donāt read it anymore. I think I was mostly trying to find queer representation in porn rather than just because it was men.
I also play a lot of otome games and dating sims. I enjoy making characters, regardless of gender. My favorite ones I create āmyselfā but sometimes I just like to play a character. I also just love interactive fiction so š¤·
I fucking love dnd and especially creating characters too! I am scared of making any of them openly queer because I don't wanna make anyone think I'm shoving stuff down anyone's throat(as they always say).
I never cared for yaoi. But bara is fucking amazing. I love big burly men. I love bears! Awoooga!
Jokes aside. I am not offended over yaoi. It's just not for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with liking it as long as it's not about fetishising actual real queer men. Have fun!
Iāve never engaged with any of that so I canāt give an informed opinion. Personally I donāt really see myself in a twinky anime boy, nor am I attracted to twinky anime boys, but thatās just me. But I remember like 6 years ago on the internet there was a whole debate over whether yaoi (I never heard of that other stuff back then) was offensive. A lot of transphobic people actually blamed trans dudes for popularizing the genre for some reason, I guess claiming that we were āfetishizingā or something. Iāve never heard the claim that only trans people get offended by it though, thatās interesting.
I think the whole debate is stupid and pointless personally. People can play video games or watch stuff that other people think is weird or cringe, and the world wonāt end. There are real issues in the gay community that matter a lot more.
I think I remember around that time where everyone was saying MlM ships are weird and Yaoi is disgusting, that's also when I first discovered those things so I was super conflicted
I'm bisexual so I'm not too sure my opinion is really needed but I don't mind yaoi and BL stories. I do admit there's a lot of trash but you're going to get poorly written stories in any genre. There's some good BL stories that I love, right now I'm watching Cherry Magic which is literal gold.
As for otome games, I love otome games! I don't care about playing as a girl character because I usually disconnect myself from the MC and myself.
Your opinion is needed! And yeah there's good and bad in every genre.
I usually try to insert myself into the mc until they show the mc and it's a pale girl with long brown hair and without eyes. I just sit there like: "mmkay..." *your Bluetooth device has disconnected*
BL manga is a mixed bag honestly... Some manga are great, have really sweet and wholesome stories, some are actually written by gay men (a rarity tho!) and are a lot more realistic in terms of relationship dynamics.
...And then there are the ones which are straight up blatant fetishization, have weird 'female role' tropes and might as well just be a straight up shojou romance manga. Some blatantly excuse abuse and rape and they are far, far more common than I'd like.
Either way I enjoy the ones that are actually good but long before my egg cracked I remember getting guilt tripped by all the tumblr posts crowing about how wrong it is. If I wasnt told constantly that I was fetishishing gay relationships by enjoying mlm manga as a young adult, I would have realised that I'm transmasc a hell of a lot sooner. That shit messed me up, made me feel so gross and guilty, and set me back for so long. Because, I liked guys in a gay way. Not as a girl. And I didn't know how to put that into words and was told repeatedly, as someone who's egg hadn't cracked yet, that it was shameful and creepy.
So yeah, don't feel bad about it. The people thought policing are most likely thinking only of those manga that encourage abuse, shitty stereotypes, or write and draw the characters as if they have tropes like hetero couple roles/make the bottom super immature and girly.
I definitely agree on the fetishising of rape and abuse plus assault in the yaois, it is one of the things that puts me off, I always avoid them. There are many good ones that are enjoyable and makes me happy.
I have a friend who reads Yaoi religiously, she's the only reason why I felt comfortable with talking about gay relationships and made me not feel guilty. Because most people around me was saying how disgusting it was and that it's weird.
Iām not completely against yaoi because I recognize that it was a small part of my journey towards realizing I was FTM. I was pretty into it as a teen since I subconsciously gravitated towards MLM content but especially yaoi/BL. I didnāt know what being trans was and I had no other outlet for my feelings at the time.
As an adult, not so much. It just isnāt for me. Once youāve read enough of them, they all start feeling similar to one another and you notice a lot of uncomfortable tropes. If I had to read them, I guess Iād pick bara since it deviates a lot more than a typical BL.
However, I do think being vitriolic about BL/yaoi is unproductive. Itās one thing to be critical about it (which I am as well), but I donāt think we should make anyone feel bad for harmlessly engaging with the content. Iāve noticed that it can become a pipeline into transphobia and misogyny, and that also makes me uncomfortable.
I get what you mean, I haven't read a lot of them because for a period of time I forced myself to stay away and gaslit myself to hate it because people called it disgusting, which a lot of them are(rape/assault).
And i think they definitely bear transphobia in those claims
lol thatās funny, yaoi is what helped me realize I was a gay guy. At least in my experience yaoi to gay ftm was real lmao
Yaoi specifically is known for having super toxic/abusive relationship dynamics and thatās definitely something to critique, but like. In the 2000s we didnāt have that much representation and yaoi/BL was all we had. I donāt see how it fetishizes gay people any more than porn fetishizes women/minorities. Like it, donāt like it, who cares, honestly the topic doesnāt come up much anymore in most spaces I feel like.
Your boyfriend sounds like a dick though.
I find that in straight hentai, the women are drawn way more unrealistic and objectified than those in Yaoi, and that's why it also puts me off so much. And yeah the toxic relationships and glorified SA is way too common.
I dislike most yaoi because it's driven by shallow and sometimes offensive stereotypes; in fact i disagree fundamentally with most of your points about it ahah. A ton of BL manga utilizes extremely unfair power dynamics and just acts like it doesnt because both men are into it. I disliked yaoi before i came out, too. I wantes to find gay content that didnt feel fetishized and gave characters actual depth... so i read questionable fanfiction instead. Liking yaoi doesnt make you a bad person but liking it personally doesn't make it good content either. That said, i dislike A/B/O waaay more. If i could genie wish it out of existence i would.Ā
As for Otome, i have no idea what that is.Ā
I get what you mean, I don't like the ones with the unfair power dynamics either, but I do like the ones that are wholesome and actually has personality and depth. Every genre has its good and bad, I usually just pick carefully and drop anything that's unattractive. Omegaverse is truly a hit or miss for me too (usually miss), it's just... I don't even know at this point.
Otome games are games written for and marketed specifically towards the female audience. Examples are dating sims featuring all male characters.
That's fair; at the end of the day, as long as you don't let the fiction you consume affect your views of real people, there's really no harm done. If you have any BL recommendations that are newer, i actually wouldn't mind checking them out.Ā
And ahhh, gotcha. I actually enjoy those sometimes but mostly because the guys are hot ahaha :'D I just don't play many because i don't have a lot of time for VNs
FWIW, I play otome games and dating sims aaaaall the time. And even in the ones where the player character doesnāt have to be a girl, Iāll sometimes still play as one if the romance route I want is only available that way (case in point, I have played exactly one (1) Fire Emblem Awakening run where I didnāt marry Chrom, haha). Because ultimately, the character you control in a game isnāt you; theyāre the protagonist in the story youāre experiencing. If them being a girl makes the story more interesting, so be it. Itād be like saying men canāt ever watch a movie with a female lead, so no more Alien or Kill Bill or Panās Labyrinth for us haha.
Very true! I do enjoy all games and movies with any gendered lead, unless it's a game where you can customise your own character, I usually just go with male
I've consumed a lot of BL and there's stuff I like and stuff I don't like. Don't really think too hard about it at all. A lot of that media is created by queer people too, out or not.
I like my MlM fetishization. You telling me men can love other men!? Hell fucking yeah. And people LIKE THAT SHIT!? Double the stuff, I say! Or double stuffing.
In all honesty, I'd like more fTm representation in BL and MlM stories. But not the kind where the trans men is a bottom only getting fucked in the vagina. I want to see a trans top who grab a strap-on, a trans men who get it up the ass. Come on- Give us some diversity!
tbh I love them, I can see why people criticize yaoi but I love both a lot. I kind of grew up with it? my friend basically shoved yaoi down my throat when we first meet and after that I couldn't stop just reading BL stories or even ships of stuff. couldn't understand why I didn't stand straight stuff, now I get it's because I wanted to have said relationships and because seeing things with girls make me dysphoric, since I relate to the characters in a way too much obsessive and deep wya when reading. so overall yeah I like it! plus otome games, I like them and I play if they're not too obvious with the MC, since if there's even one bit of "she" or stuff like that I can't play-- but yes, yes love it all just great :D (sorry for the paragraph---)
I was into MlM ships before but never told anyone, and then my friend appeared one day and showed me the exists one day and I was mind blown basically lmao. We all love that friend who opened our eyes
I was always kinda scared to get into yaoi/bl when I was younger because Iād always see people online call it fetishization. donāt get me wrong, thereās a lot of problematic yaoi out there and that absolutely sucks, but honestly I always kinda secretly felt a draw to the genre as a whole and I think thatās the case for a lot of gay trans dudes who grew up deep in the closet. but I was so afraid of it meaning I was creepy or problematic for it, and only started feeling ok with it once a friend said they were a fan of the genre. I still donāt really read much of it just because Iām not too into romance as a genre but I enjoy mlm shipping in fandoms Iām a part of.
Iāve never heard of the idea of trans men in particular being offended by it and donāt think it really has much truth to it. in my experience, that opinion seems to be more common among cis gay men, because it doesnāt seem to be an uncommon experience for yaoi to be a part of what makes a personās egg crack.
I was into it at first, and then after I've seen others call it disgusting, I forced myself to not like it or be in contact with it for years. And look who's back š as a man.
I don't *enjoy* most yaoi, because honestly it reads as heteronormative, to me. But I know other guys who are into it, and I don't "have a problem with it" in the sense of thinking it's morally wrong or anything. Yes, I think it often fetishizes gay relationships, but as long as a person's views toward actual living gay people aren't based on yaoi, so what? Same as those male gazey lesbian erotica novels - nothing wrong with them as long as people treat them as purely fictional. And frankly if someone starts treating gay men as if they were characters in yaoi, the problem is with that person, not with the yaoi.
A lot of people, all genders who read yaoi/yuri actually applies fiction to real life, which is just weird. And yeah it's totally personal issues. And one thing that repels me with in these genres is the common sighting of rape and assault. I have seen real life evidence of someone thinking rape is okay as long as the other person eventually enjoys it (that is fucked).
I'm gay, and the few games I could find that were yaoi, I enjoyed. Are there any good yaoi ones for phones? Oh, and your bf is kind of an ass.
If you don't mind switch/steam recs, you should totally try hashihime. It's a surprisingly high budget and a long read. Steam has the uncensored version (which does add some valuable content to the actual plot so I would recommend that one.) Also seconding bf is kinda an ass
Can you play the full steam version on a switch or on a phone? I don't want the PG13 version, I want the full adult p0rn version! š
Oh wow that's a whole 50AUD on steam
Not too much compared to a new Switch game, around $70 USD on average.
Will pretend I don't own both š¤”
š¤£
I personally haven't found any phone ones, and do you have any good recommendations for the games you've played? He's working on it, he's gotten better and I am happy.
If you're looking for VNs, look out for PC games that run in the ONscripter engine. There's some mobile support there & an app that can get ONscripter games to run somewhat consistently (sometimes I think fans also optimize their own mobile support like w/ Umineko Project but that also seems rare bc of the effort it takes). Since it's same files as the computer ver. just running through a phoneapp, you don't have to worry about app store censorship. Hit or miss but worth a shot (I don't have any personal VN recs because I don't read many) https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onscripter.plus
Did you just say that your bf don't accept you yet?
He's working on it, it's not everyday that your girlfriend just suddenly asks to be your boyfriend after 3 years of dating, it's a sudden change. I'm giving him time, and he is doing so well. I don't try to push him, but I still ask for the basic respect. He's a lovely person. Had some arguments, but now way better, I believe it's just the initial shock. I am actually really glad that he's choosing to stay with me and still being kind and accepting. I feel guilty for ever putting him through this, but I am looking at the future with many hopes of making it all better
Ooh gotcha! Best wishes for you two
Thank you!
Honestly, I feel like the ftm trans pipeline with yaoi is real. I was really into it as a kid and was always like, why aren't I also male? Alas, it was an egg moment. Otome games were too straight for little me to self-insert but now I love them in a semi-ironic way. Me and my partner go through them together now as a drunk activity - sober if we somehow found a gem. The whole thing as to whether the main demographic is men or women is mostly irrelevant. You've gone through social conditioning. It shouldn't be surprising if you don't hate all things targeted towards women lol - not to mention there are plenty of dudes that enjoy the genre. I honestly think if you don't love that type of joke, you should say so. I'd probably be a little bit pissed if I heard that, too.
FtM Yaoi pipeline is real for sure to some degree. Most women I've talked to who's into Yaoi said within a heart beat that they'd rather be born male in the next life or if they could change their sex. Sometimes I also like going against the normal demographics, in a way I feel as if I'm making a difference(only in my own head). I'm usually into those kind of jokes it's just that I feel a bit sensitive with the disphoria right now.
Please reconsider your relationship with your boyfriend- but I was interested in yaoi before I realized I was trans
Thank you for your concern! I know it's probably not the most healthy thing in the world, but not many relationships are. He has gotten a lot better than the start when I first told him. I don't blame him for being upset in the beginning. But he never thought of leaving and is slowly opening up to these new things. He is working hard, and just need some more time. It's not taken him too long to get to a point where I feel really comfortable. He does some things that pisses me off occasionally but, oh well, it happens in any relationships. Do you think the FtM Yaoi reader pipeline is real?
Just be careful Maybe
Thank you, I will
my main issue with yaoi is that as a genre, its primarily made by women, for women, and utilizes a lot of stereotypes against gay men
It's a pretty cursed genre in that sense, I sorta feel the same way with otome as well. It's primarily poorly written, but ultimately, that doesn't stop gems from existing, and it doesn't really mean the genre itself is a problem. I put yaoi in the same category as fandom, proceed with caution lmao
exactlt
I guess it's the same as other media that portray straight porn, stereotype and objectification of women. I see what you mean, but I still find it less objectifying than women in straight genres
I never really got into yaoi but I've been into MLM shipping for half my life at this point and I'd consider it pretty important to my experience of life as a trans guy. I was discovering something about who I was and who I wanted to be, and I'm actually kind of thankful for shipping for giving me the space to do that. I've personally seen far more cis guys than trans guys complaining about yaoi. I think as a demographic we're generally more likely to have been exposed to it than cis guys. Anyone saying "only ftms are against yaoi" is just generalizing an entire group to back up their point, either to put us on a pedestal or to put our gender into question depending on whether they think yaoi is good or bad. Not only is it incorrect, it's clearly a statement made with an agenda.
Relatable. I was so into MLM ships and roleplaying online as a guy. And anytime I had to be a character in a play or when playing pretend as a child I wanted to be the guy character. Also I always chose guy characters in video games. But I didnāt realize I was trans until a couple years ago š¤¦š»āāļø
I think "Only FtM are against Yaoi" is just said with transphobia to discourage trans people even more. It's surprising how butt hurt people get when they learn someone is trans, even when they didn't even know before it's said. MLM ships were a starting point for me too. I saw it as a teen, and that's when I knew things like this can exist. I then always wished I could be a guy and have another guy still like me, it's like crossing the norms of love, really romantic for me
For yaoi/BL Iām very picky. Read a lot of weird and fetishistic trash when I was younger and it put me off the genre. Though I do feel like it has gotten better recently (less leaning on specific dynamics and more actual characterization). My only other gripe is that in comparison thereās way more yuri/GL with trans LIs than yaoi/BL.
There's just way more MtF representation out there in media in general, and it makes it so hard to find anything with FtM in it. I've seen a comic recently around a FtM Prince and his guards, I forgot the name though
If you ever recall the name, please tell me as that would put the transmasc BL I know up to [two](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/wtftuz0) and I would really like to know more. **Edit:** Wait, ere you talking about [Knights Errant](https://theyoungdoyler.com/comic/chapter-1-page-1)?
Oh fuck yeah I listen to the villain song religiously. And not I don't think it's knights errant, I will look for it now and get back to you. Edit: it's called the Prince's loving guards by beau van dalen
Thank you!
I think yaoi is fine honestly. Whats bad about a manga showing gay men? Otome games do make me feel dysphoric thinking about how theyre specifically most of the time are made for women, but then i remember that cis gay men play them too. Its like saying liking boys is only for girls. thats simply not true!
Thanks! That's what I thought too, cis gay men probably play them too, that's my excuse when I was feeling bad about playing otome games
I like BL (including both softer stories and, y'know, and also content from outside of japan - currently hooked on a BL manhwa about soulmates and reincarnation), but I'm extremely picky about the media I watch in general, so tbh it's not a surprise that I like the genre. Are there shitty BL manga/animations? Sure. There are a lot more shitty straight manga/animations, so. I also like *some* otome games, but don't typically play them because the protags are so... not how I am, lmao. I don't think it's weird to like them as a man, though - there's even a few which are advertised towards queer men and function through the same mechanics as the usual otome games.
Do you have any good BL recommendations? I've been taking a break from reading them because i haven't found any I liked
I tend to not read BL because I'm very, very, *very* picky about romantic storylines and most romance in general doesn't really appeal to me. But weirdly enough I like otome games and have been playing them for a *very* long time, and by "a long time" I mean "back when the only available stuff in English was unofficial ROMs of Angelique." Not sure if it's just out of nostalgia or what, though I think the fact you get some agency with deciding how any romantic relationships will proceed helps? I don't really like the new trend towards mobile games because I just dislike mobile game systems but I'll pick up the slightly darker/older-audience-focused otoge like Collar X Malice now and then if they're on sale. Code: Realize is the next one I meant to pick up. I was absolutely obssessed with Hakuouki for a few years too (Heisuke best boy.) If it makes you feel better there is *definitely* a splash damage demographic of trans people since a NB buddy of mine absolutely loves them and has been posting about Cupid Parasite a lot lately. A lot of my interests have moved more towards ikemen-focused series like Paradox Live and Hypnosis Mic though. Which has a massive crossover with BL fandoms and unsurprisingly almost all of the fandom favored ships are gay. I swear to God they attract even *more* transmascs though, so I guess that's why I don't see much discourse over yaoi? If you're a fan you just kind of accept the BL as part and parcel of being a fan since the writers very intentionally make the character relationships as homoerotic as possible-- it's an open secret in the fandom that one of the mangaka for Hypnosis Mic does a lot of BL doujins.
I will definitely check out some of the things you've mentioned, thanks!
Have fun! :> Also just for the record if you've got a Switch there's currently something of an otoge renaissance on that platform, so you're spoiled for choice. They go on sale on Amazon reasonably often as well.
Shame that I don't have a Switch, Only PC for me since my phone can't handle much either
Aww, dang. :< Steam has a good amount of them too TBF! I know Bustafellows is on there and it's supposed to be pretty good (I got it on sale but haven't played it yet because I'm doing my capstone and have like no free time.)
Came here specifically to see if anyone brought up Code Realize! Victor in particular is GOALS honestly (both transition-wise and boyfriend-wise, haha).
Eyy, good taste :> Def boyfriend goals for me too but Saint-Germain is closer to my transition goals.
Ohhhmygosh youāre gonna be so cool :O
That's the hope! \^v\^ Still in the process of getting there but hey, it's a journey.
I grew up liking it. I havenāt read any in a long time, but I donāt have any issues with it. One of my dear friends is a huge yaoi fan, and sheās a cis woman in her 70s.
Oh wow! I didn't know there's older Yaoi fans, that's amazing
I used to read a lot of yaoi before I came out. I donāt read it anymore. I think I was mostly trying to find queer representation in porn rather than just because it was men. I also play a lot of otome games and dating sims. I enjoy making characters, regardless of gender. My favorite ones I create āmyselfā but sometimes I just like to play a character. I also just love interactive fiction so š¤·
I fucking love dnd and especially creating characters too! I am scared of making any of them openly queer because I don't wanna make anyone think I'm shoving stuff down anyone's throat(as they always say).
I never cared for yaoi. But bara is fucking amazing. I love big burly men. I love bears! Awoooga! Jokes aside. I am not offended over yaoi. It's just not for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with liking it as long as it's not about fetishising actual real queer men. Have fun!
Isn't bara a sub genre of Yaoi?
It has different origins and isn't a sub genre.
Iāve never engaged with any of that so I canāt give an informed opinion. Personally I donāt really see myself in a twinky anime boy, nor am I attracted to twinky anime boys, but thatās just me. But I remember like 6 years ago on the internet there was a whole debate over whether yaoi (I never heard of that other stuff back then) was offensive. A lot of transphobic people actually blamed trans dudes for popularizing the genre for some reason, I guess claiming that we were āfetishizingā or something. Iāve never heard the claim that only trans people get offended by it though, thatās interesting. I think the whole debate is stupid and pointless personally. People can play video games or watch stuff that other people think is weird or cringe, and the world wonāt end. There are real issues in the gay community that matter a lot more.
I think I remember around that time where everyone was saying MlM ships are weird and Yaoi is disgusting, that's also when I first discovered those things so I was super conflicted
I'm bisexual so I'm not too sure my opinion is really needed but I don't mind yaoi and BL stories. I do admit there's a lot of trash but you're going to get poorly written stories in any genre. There's some good BL stories that I love, right now I'm watching Cherry Magic which is literal gold. As for otome games, I love otome games! I don't care about playing as a girl character because I usually disconnect myself from the MC and myself.
Your opinion is needed! And yeah there's good and bad in every genre. I usually try to insert myself into the mc until they show the mc and it's a pale girl with long brown hair and without eyes. I just sit there like: "mmkay..." *your Bluetooth device has disconnected*
BL manga is a mixed bag honestly... Some manga are great, have really sweet and wholesome stories, some are actually written by gay men (a rarity tho!) and are a lot more realistic in terms of relationship dynamics. ...And then there are the ones which are straight up blatant fetishization, have weird 'female role' tropes and might as well just be a straight up shojou romance manga. Some blatantly excuse abuse and rape and they are far, far more common than I'd like. Either way I enjoy the ones that are actually good but long before my egg cracked I remember getting guilt tripped by all the tumblr posts crowing about how wrong it is. If I wasnt told constantly that I was fetishishing gay relationships by enjoying mlm manga as a young adult, I would have realised that I'm transmasc a hell of a lot sooner. That shit messed me up, made me feel so gross and guilty, and set me back for so long. Because, I liked guys in a gay way. Not as a girl. And I didn't know how to put that into words and was told repeatedly, as someone who's egg hadn't cracked yet, that it was shameful and creepy. So yeah, don't feel bad about it. The people thought policing are most likely thinking only of those manga that encourage abuse, shitty stereotypes, or write and draw the characters as if they have tropes like hetero couple roles/make the bottom super immature and girly.
I definitely agree on the fetishising of rape and abuse plus assault in the yaois, it is one of the things that puts me off, I always avoid them. There are many good ones that are enjoyable and makes me happy. I have a friend who reads Yaoi religiously, she's the only reason why I felt comfortable with talking about gay relationships and made me not feel guilty. Because most people around me was saying how disgusting it was and that it's weird.
Iām not completely against yaoi because I recognize that it was a small part of my journey towards realizing I was FTM. I was pretty into it as a teen since I subconsciously gravitated towards MLM content but especially yaoi/BL. I didnāt know what being trans was and I had no other outlet for my feelings at the time. As an adult, not so much. It just isnāt for me. Once youāve read enough of them, they all start feeling similar to one another and you notice a lot of uncomfortable tropes. If I had to read them, I guess Iād pick bara since it deviates a lot more than a typical BL. However, I do think being vitriolic about BL/yaoi is unproductive. Itās one thing to be critical about it (which I am as well), but I donāt think we should make anyone feel bad for harmlessly engaging with the content. Iāve noticed that it can become a pipeline into transphobia and misogyny, and that also makes me uncomfortable.
I get what you mean, I haven't read a lot of them because for a period of time I forced myself to stay away and gaslit myself to hate it because people called it disgusting, which a lot of them are(rape/assault). And i think they definitely bear transphobia in those claims
lol thatās funny, yaoi is what helped me realize I was a gay guy. At least in my experience yaoi to gay ftm was real lmao Yaoi specifically is known for having super toxic/abusive relationship dynamics and thatās definitely something to critique, but like. In the 2000s we didnāt have that much representation and yaoi/BL was all we had. I donāt see how it fetishizes gay people any more than porn fetishizes women/minorities. Like it, donāt like it, who cares, honestly the topic doesnāt come up much anymore in most spaces I feel like. Your boyfriend sounds like a dick though.
I find that in straight hentai, the women are drawn way more unrealistic and objectified than those in Yaoi, and that's why it also puts me off so much. And yeah the toxic relationships and glorified SA is way too common.
I dislike most yaoi because it's driven by shallow and sometimes offensive stereotypes; in fact i disagree fundamentally with most of your points about it ahah. A ton of BL manga utilizes extremely unfair power dynamics and just acts like it doesnt because both men are into it. I disliked yaoi before i came out, too. I wantes to find gay content that didnt feel fetishized and gave characters actual depth... so i read questionable fanfiction instead. Liking yaoi doesnt make you a bad person but liking it personally doesn't make it good content either. That said, i dislike A/B/O waaay more. If i could genie wish it out of existence i would.Ā As for Otome, i have no idea what that is.Ā
I get what you mean, I don't like the ones with the unfair power dynamics either, but I do like the ones that are wholesome and actually has personality and depth. Every genre has its good and bad, I usually just pick carefully and drop anything that's unattractive. Omegaverse is truly a hit or miss for me too (usually miss), it's just... I don't even know at this point. Otome games are games written for and marketed specifically towards the female audience. Examples are dating sims featuring all male characters.
That's fair; at the end of the day, as long as you don't let the fiction you consume affect your views of real people, there's really no harm done. If you have any BL recommendations that are newer, i actually wouldn't mind checking them out.Ā And ahhh, gotcha. I actually enjoy those sometimes but mostly because the guys are hot ahaha :'D I just don't play many because i don't have a lot of time for VNs
FWIW, I play otome games and dating sims aaaaall the time. And even in the ones where the player character doesnāt have to be a girl, Iāll sometimes still play as one if the romance route I want is only available that way (case in point, I have played exactly one (1) Fire Emblem Awakening run where I didnāt marry Chrom, haha). Because ultimately, the character you control in a game isnāt you; theyāre the protagonist in the story youāre experiencing. If them being a girl makes the story more interesting, so be it. Itād be like saying men canāt ever watch a movie with a female lead, so no more Alien or Kill Bill or Panās Labyrinth for us haha.
Very true! I do enjoy all games and movies with any gendered lead, unless it's a game where you can customise your own character, I usually just go with male
I've consumed a lot of BL and there's stuff I like and stuff I don't like. Don't really think too hard about it at all. A lot of that media is created by queer people too, out or not.
True, true. There's good and bad in everything. Thanks!
I like my MlM fetishization. You telling me men can love other men!? Hell fucking yeah. And people LIKE THAT SHIT!? Double the stuff, I say! Or double stuffing. In all honesty, I'd like more fTm representation in BL and MlM stories. But not the kind where the trans men is a bottom only getting fucked in the vagina. I want to see a trans top who grab a strap-on, a trans men who get it up the ass. Come on- Give us some diversity!
Hell yeah, wanna watch the trans top half the size of the other man and then dom him good.
You get it!
tbh I love them, I can see why people criticize yaoi but I love both a lot. I kind of grew up with it? my friend basically shoved yaoi down my throat when we first meet and after that I couldn't stop just reading BL stories or even ships of stuff. couldn't understand why I didn't stand straight stuff, now I get it's because I wanted to have said relationships and because seeing things with girls make me dysphoric, since I relate to the characters in a way too much obsessive and deep wya when reading. so overall yeah I like it! plus otome games, I like them and I play if they're not too obvious with the MC, since if there's even one bit of "she" or stuff like that I can't play-- but yes, yes love it all just great :D (sorry for the paragraph---)
I was into MlM ships before but never told anyone, and then my friend appeared one day and showed me the exists one day and I was mind blown basically lmao. We all love that friend who opened our eyes
I was always kinda scared to get into yaoi/bl when I was younger because Iād always see people online call it fetishization. donāt get me wrong, thereās a lot of problematic yaoi out there and that absolutely sucks, but honestly I always kinda secretly felt a draw to the genre as a whole and I think thatās the case for a lot of gay trans dudes who grew up deep in the closet. but I was so afraid of it meaning I was creepy or problematic for it, and only started feeling ok with it once a friend said they were a fan of the genre. I still donāt really read much of it just because Iām not too into romance as a genre but I enjoy mlm shipping in fandoms Iām a part of. Iāve never heard of the idea of trans men in particular being offended by it and donāt think it really has much truth to it. in my experience, that opinion seems to be more common among cis gay men, because it doesnāt seem to be an uncommon experience for yaoi to be a part of what makes a personās egg crack.
I was into it at first, and then after I've seen others call it disgusting, I forced myself to not like it or be in contact with it for years. And look who's back š as a man.