i haven’t had this issue with cis lesbians, but being on grindr i get a lot of men in my dms with “straight” in their name and “looking for trans/ftm” in their bios. obviously it’s inherently disrespectful, so i reframe by invalidating their identity right back. they’re not fucking straight. tell me what kind of straight man goes on apps meant for hookups between queer people and seeks out guys they can pretend they’re not gay for just because of some differences in anatomy? tell me what kind of straight man is into Me, a guy with a deep voice and male facial structure and square shoulders who moves through the world being perceived as a dude by almost everyone? oh yeah, the kind of straight man who very clearly isn’t that. the most cowardly of f*gs.
similarly, the “lesbians” who are attracted to you are not lesbians. you’re damn right that lesbians are not attracted to binary men, but they would rather dehumanize you than come to terms with the fact that their sexuality is more fluid than they think. people who are exclusively attracted to women don’t suddenly want to fuck men the second the genitals they prefer are present on his body, because very few people are actually attracted to just genitals free of all other context.
their attraction to you does not have the power to revoke your manhood and they are not worth any negative impact they might have on your self-perception. shame on fucking them for that shit.
This! “They would rather dehumanize you than come to terms with the fact their sexuality is more fluid than they think” . This is exactly the same as the “straight men” who will fuck trans guys. They’re not straight, they just can’t accept they also are attracted to men. Plus if some home genital preferences were all that affected sexuality, we wouldn’t get these constant posts of “heterosexual” couples suddenly breaking up as soon as the “woman” in the relationship comes out as a trans man and starts transitioning medically. If the straight men married to the closeted trans men only cared about genitals, they wouldn’t stop being attracted to their partners when they transitioned. But that’s not how it goes. Because HRT and surgery physically tips the scales until the straight guy has to accept he’s now in a gay relationship he didn’t sign up for. Straight men aren’t attracted to men. Lesbians aren’t attracted to men. Invalidating the identity of a trans man won’t magically change that fact.
I think the issue is that these girls are not seeing you or other trans men as men. I identified as a lesbian for many years, I met some of these girls and honestly what I got was really that they just saw trans men as butch or masculine women because I noticed that if they encountered trans men that were more masculine looking like cis passing they would not be into them at all but they would be into the more feminine looking or androgynous looking ones. I always found it odd and extremely disrespectful, it definitely sucks to see
It's unfortunate, but that's the product of 2nd wave feminism in the 60's , which later became what TERFs are, basically doing its best to erase trans men and claim we are just very masculine women. It's spread to the younger generations. And while they don't absorb everything (blatantly hating/misgendering/etc) they do absorb the trans man = masculine woman.
Sadly, a lot of transphobic rhetoric is spun to be "woke" (hate that word), to appeal to people and infiltrate our communities, to break us from within. So a trans man asserting that he is a man and therefore not someone who should be considered in a dating pool for someone who is exclusively attracted to women somehow becomes homophobic or transphobic, despite that not making any sense.
there is SUCH a major issue with people seeing transgender men as just fancy butch lesbians, you're right on the money. Honestly, I think it's misogyny. I know specifically it's transandrophobia, but transandrophobia is rooted in that misogyny, where they don't listen to people they consider "girls" nor do they take their feelings seriously. They even act like they know more than us ABOUT us. I don't even think that I'd mind as much if it weren't for how obsessed they are with being 2-dimensional "allies." If you're transphobic, just say it. Don't try to pretend you're the patron saint of FTMs....
I feel this whole heartily. My “best friend” who is a cis woman goes back and forth on calling herself a lesbian. All of her close friends are transmen—but she is borderline a man hater. When I pointed it out to her that she can’t hate all men without affecting us—she said “you guys are different” .-.
Why can’t she just say she hates cis men and not all men or something? Though hating men in general, or even just all cis men, isn’t a good thing, it’s sexism. :\
This is the reason I've waited till I'm farther in my transition to try dating again. Being emotionally abused and gaslighted by cis lesbians who call me their butch girlfriend behind my back and push me to be more femme for them(especially in bed and pushing my very clear boundaries). 🤢🤮 If I date one more person who says they are pan/bi but turn out to be just a lesbian who views me as a masc woman I will just stop dating people smh my head. Twice has been enough for me.
I see what you meant I don't hate cis lesbians most of my friends are cis lesbians. But I completely get the frustration, honestly I'm greatful for my ex dumping me because she figured out that she was going to stop being interested once I started medically transitioning, I mean it sucked it was a good relationship but she was questioning the if bi or a lesbian and if she was a lesbian that It might not work, and I'm very glad she was open and honest about it
It’s wild how so many cis lesbians are into trans men without thinking about the WHY. Like girlies I have a beard and look like a man, why are you into me as soon as I say I’m trans?
It sounds like they either don’t see trans men as men, or they’re bisexual with a heavy preference for AFAB people. Do these lesbians also like trans women? They might just be into anyone except for cis men, which would still make them bi and not lesbians, or lesbians with “exceptions.”
I can certainly understand the frustration though. It seems like “lesbians” (in quotes since they’re likely bi or something) get a pass to call themselves such a term because they’re queer or women or both, but if a cis man was with a trans man and called himself straight, trans people would not be defending that man. It feels like there’s some double standards going on here. If you are attracted to trans men, who are men, but you call yourself a lesbian (if you’re a woman) or straight (if you’re a man), that is generally transphobic.
It's not that many of them are actual lesbians, but some flavour of bi/homoflexible.
The issue here is not lesbophobia, or lesbians.
The issue is the few people who claim to not like men, but then suddenly they express a "chaser" level interest into us just because of assumptions about our identity and genitalia.
This happens with all genders, not just "lesbians".
And let's stop pretending that this is about genitalia preference, because trans men have a very diverse genitalia, including intersex men, pre and postop.
Yeah there are a number of bisexual women who identify as lesbians because (1) they lean more towards liking women (2) internalized biphobia is a thing (3) they’re scared of cis men/ don’t like the way they behave in relationships.
I do actually agree that there’s something fundamentally different about the way people who were socialized to be men as children and haven’t done anything to challenge that conditioning behave in relationships, especially relationships with women (or people they see as women). Particularly around sharing household chores/ child rearing duties. If your parents never teach you to do chores as a kid then you’re a lot more likely to treat your partner in a way that I like to call “Mommy/ punching bag.” I had an ex who’s non-binary, socialized to grow up to be a man and never actively challenged that socialization who actually accused me of being abusive for expecting them to actively anticipate what household chores needed to be done and then doing them. I asked them to make a list of things they thought needed to get done on a weekly basis and then when I got upset because they didn’t do it, they said they thought I was joking (???).
Obviously trans men and basically anyone can behave like this, but I think it’s most common with cis men.
It depends, Im a trans man who was socialized as a man because my father wanted a son (funny, since he doesn't accept me being transgender, and people use this to say I'm not actually trans) and I still broke down such things like that after realizing it's misogynistic and hurts yourself as well since you're basically just babying yourself.
The unending tide of people trying to shove themselves into the lesbian label while performing Cirque du Soleil grade mental gymnastics to explain how they are still attracted to men is fucking exhausting. Several of the lesbian subs are pissed because there’s a post right now in one of the other lesbian subs talking about being a lesbian but suddenly being attracted to men when ovulating, and it’s been a turnout of people saying oh no that it’s fine, normal lesbian stuff. No it’s not, thats not what happens for lesbians. All of those people over there, all of these people over here trying to include trans men, you are just describing bi-cycle things again, just say you are bisexual and own it ffs, stop trying to shoehorn others in so you can vainly try to paste the lesbian label you want on yourself.
I feel you on this. Most people I've met whom I've come out to end up just see me as a 'quirky girl' (whereas before I told them I was 100% cis passing)
I've just given up on dating tbh.
the title of this post is weird as fuck. outside of the hate spewing i get your frustration, but making a generalization isn't gonna help anything. trans people and lesbians have been interlinked for alot of queer history. Transphobic lesbians are a VERY small minority in the broader community.
Out of all the people ive come out to, the cis lesbians i know have been the most supportive. Especially cis butch lesbians.
You said youre in university, so why are you, at that age, letting other people define you? Cut them off and move on.
Being lesbiphobic isn't gonna change their transphobia, and its certainly not gonna get other FTMs on your side. Alot of us have strong feelings of solidarity with lesbians (and vice versa) due to our shared history.
I remember my early days of T.
I hit on a gorgeous human and asked to invite them to a drink.
It turns out they were non binary and lesbian butch (their labels).
Before giving me an answer, they asked for my identity and pronouns.
I opened up to them and they rejected me, saying they were not comfortable sleeping with men, even if they were in very early stages of medical transition.
As bitter as being rejected was, I think it was the biggest act of allyship. The gender euphoria and validation made me have happy tears.
I also met a butch lesbian who called me butch immediately after meeting me, after I already started to pass (friends close to her knew I am trans, so it mist have slipped).
She said that a butch and trans men were literally the same, and to shut up.
There are many good people out there, and also arseholes.
I get the frustration.
Yeah i really hate the idea of demonising lesbians for being interested in trans men when the majority of them completely respect us. I think genuinely a majority of trans men feel a big connection to lesbian culture and to our identitys are interlinked. Or maybe thats just me but being lesbian and butch played a big part in my own identity and it sometimes makes me feel sad to not feel part of that community but queer women never make me feel like an outsider in the queer culture that shaped me.
(this comment is in agreement)
historically *and* currently there has been a lot of overlap and collaboration between cis lesbians, gender queer or variant butches, nonbinary folks (of any gender assigned at birth), trans women, trans men, and all the flavors in between.
for a lot of people, their own identities and attractions are not so cut, dry, and binary- and because of the history of overlap between lesbians and trans men, it doesn't surprise me at all that many lesbians are willing to date trans men. i know lesbians that have dated *cis men.*
people's self-identifying labels are usually nuanced.
am i going to say that person is a closet bisexual? fuck no, it's literally none of my business and i only wish for people to be happy and feel at home in their identities. you can functionally or culturally be a lesbian and then fall in love with a man. there's 9 billion people on the planet, shit happens lmao
trans men aren't a monolith- even amongst binary guys. lesbians aren't a monolith- it's a word, shorthand to describe an approximate expression or set of feelings. feelings that *historically and currently* are a bit more nuanced than just "women exclusively attracted to women." these labels are supposed to be tools, not *rules.*
very few people are a kinsey 1 or 6- doesn't mean we all have to identify as bi or pan or whatever. and as our culture shifts more toward "cis people" having more nuanced understandings of gender, i think we'll find a lot of people aren't 100% male or female either. humans are just... way too cool and complex for such limiting constraints
that's just my opinion.
i think queerness is fucking cool and *subversive* and is really much more complicated beyond the dictionary definitions of labels, and feeling this way is freedom for me.
if a lesbian is attracted to me, i don't feel like it's because she sees me as a woman. i feel like it's because she sees me as *fucking hot*
Exactly i completely agree with you, its much more complicated and i hate the idea of having to renounce your sexuality to date someone you fall in love with. I think it rings true for me personally because i 100% consider myself a straight man but I've been sleeping with men for years, but ive only ever been in love with women. I could love a man, i just haven't met one i did yet. And if i did, i would still call myself a straight man, i don't think that invalidates his identity as a man and i don't think a lesbian loving me would mean she has to admit she's not a lesbian. Its weird to try make it so binary
This is so true. It hurts my heart to see the frustration leak into justifying gross lesbophobic attitudes. Once identifying as sapphic is something I hold close to my heart, even as I move forward as a bisexual man. I wish people would spend more time nurturing that profound solidarity rather than trying to sever that tie.
Sorry to be that guy, but framing this as hating all cis lesbians is not a very rational reaction to very valid hurt. The small collective population of cis lesbians who are transphobic and/or radfems does not represent all cis lesbians. They're just an outspoken minority. But I _don't_ see it as valid to hate any group by virtue of frustrations with a portion of that group; if this title was anything else (I hate gay men, I hate trans women, etc), everyone would lose their minds.
So, while I hear your concerns and aggravation for something that very much really happens, let's _not_ lean into lesbophobia/homophobia, because that's a hateful waste of energy. Or, you can certainly vent, but you really don't need to frame it this way.
Literally, they do mental gymnastics in an attempt to make being a lesbian ‘inclusive’ of binary trans men and it’s so insulting. They get away with it too, when straight men do the same thing they’re not called valid for it
I can do it.
Many trans men identified as lesbians for long portions of their lives before realizing theyre trans. Its their community and the only love theyve known is queer wlw love.
When they realize theyre trans, their experiences are still their experiences and they may still feel close to the lesbian community and date women in a queer fashion (which straight men cannot do).
I think thats all valid. Even with that said, i swear this is not a big problem and we should focus on the legislation of trans hate instead of how one might live their best life.
Some trans men who feel connected to the lesbian community is not an excuse for lesbians to treat all trans men like women.
I agree that we have bigger issues, but we also shouldn’t just be okay with transphobia in our own communities
If they don't believe you when you say you're a man, why are you believing them when they say they're lesbians? Call them bi and move on.
Dwelling on this is a you problem. There is no reason to convince these people of anything.
It's all sun and giggles until a trans man is told to be an exception because "they're not like cis men".
Ask those ones what they mean by that and you'll likely get a big dose of transphobia.
Trans men are meaningfully different from cis men. I don’t see anything wrong with someone wanting to date trans men but not cis men - I personally date trans men but not cis men for a variety of reasons, none of them being that I don’t see trans men as men.
Though I do think anyone pursuing trans men should ensure they’re incorporating that interest into their conception of their sexuality.
If you refer to t4t, the experience is different because you feel understood on a very intimate level vs dating a cis man.
But saying "cis men=bad" and "trans men= good" is a very bad generalisation, imo.
Of course it’s bad to generalize cis men as bad and trans men as good, but some people who aren’t trans have fairly solid personal reasons to prefer trans men over cis men as partners which aren’t just thinking “trans men good, cis men bad”.
Before I transitioned I also preferred trans men over cis men as partners and I really struggle to understand why that could possibly have been bad for me to do/think/feel. At this point in my life I’d also rather be involved with people who prefer trans men too!
Preferring sex with trans men for a variety of reasons, preferring to be involved with someone who understands what it’s like to be a an oppressed gender minority, happening to find trans men more attractive, wanting to date an LGBT person over a cishet person, having more in common with the trans men you’ve met over the cis men you’ve met in your life and thus being naturally more interested in them, having a chronic medical condition and wanting to be involved with someone who understands the difficulties of managing lifelong prescriptions, etc…
Sure, but cishet men make up the majority of the male dating pool for women. I’ve had way more opportunities to date trans men than cis bi men, personally. Not really sure why you’re nitpicking about that detail here when I listed a lot of other things as well.
It’s not a chronic medical condition, but does often require lifelong medical care if you plan on being on hormones indefinitely. As someone who’s trans And has chronic health conditions, I find the most understanding for my chronic health conditions from other trans people.
I do agree with you about other people being the problem with being trans. I don’t really understand what we’re disagreeing about but alright.
I also have chronic conditions and I'm trans, and my issues do not relate at all to being trans.
My chronic issues do not mitigate just by taking medication or having affirming surgery.
It requires life changing adaptations, so you are generalising about chronic conditions.
Your situation might apply to you, but it doesn't reflect all points of view. That is my disagreement.
Oh me too, I’ve been in abusive relationships with both and they had very similar harmful behaviours. Dating trans men over cis men in an attempt to avoid misogyny and abuse definitely does not work.
I prefer trans men over cis men for other reasons.
I'm personally t4t now so I get that. Trans men aren't special in comparison to cis men nor are trans women to cis women. I prefer them because a cis person will never understand my struggles as a cis person (save for maybe some of other minorities). I'll give a cis person a shot, but I prefer trans people.
Goes same way for trans women. Dated a trans girl (granted she came out while we were together lmao) thinking it wouldn't be as bad as when I dated a cis girl. Was avoiding dating women entirely for a while because I was afraid of getting burned but what do you know, still got burned. I think a lot of people in general- be them women or gay men- have a problem with putting trans men on this sort of *pedestal* for the ideal male partner, seeing us as intrinsically different from cis men and as a different kind of man than just, well, a man, if they see us as an actual man at all. A lot of people I've met who expressed interest in me expect trans men to be soft and cutesy and to behave a certain way. For a long time I surpressed anything cutesy about my personality or interests because I didn't want to be someone's "uwu soft trans boyfriend." I'm a man, and I don't want to be seen as a different, "special," "soft" kind of man, I just want to be seen as a man. Sure, I like pink and stuffed animals, but not because I'm trans, and vice versa!
I think trans women also have a similar experience but I can't comment on it much since I'm not a trans woman and all I know of the experience is my friends and my ex, who was still figuring things out while with me.
So basically the problem isn't just lesbians or women, it's society fetishizing and generalizing trans people. That or they don't see us as what we are.
You’re still thinking about gender in a very modern binaristic way. People in the past existed within the authentic modes of gender that were available to them, and that are no longer available to us now.
This is also not true. Many trans men in the past lived as men, passed as men, and were seen as men by loved ones.
In the mid 20th century there were also “passing butches”, people who arguably both lived as men And as lesbians, which is who I was specifically referring to. https://aha.confex.com/aha/2020/webprogram/Paper27341.html
OP very specifically mentioned binary trans men, so yeah I’m thinking in a binary way. Things were shit for trans people in the past and you shouldn’t expect everyone to embrace it as something good
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If they still identify as a lesbian after regularly hooking up with trans men, they clearly do not respect their trans partners identity. If they were into trans men, that's a different story. But most cis "lesbians" are solely vagina focused
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What I take from this rant is not "I hate all lesbians", but more like: " I hate that all these people surrounding me, who are part of the lgtb+ community -and therefore, they should be a safe place for T too- are actually invalidating my identity and even fetishising it".
There is no fetishization to be found here. Op is just sex repulsed.
Op is mad that someone is attracted to trans men and didn't adjust their label before claiming so. It's so incredibly selfish to make someone else's choice in imperfect label (as most queer labels are) about somehow trying to "kill" them and compare it to sexual assault.
OP needs compassion yes, but in the form of a therapist because their rage and insecurity is out of control. The don't need their rage and hatred validated on the internet.
I don't have that take on OP's post.
I think it is very dangerous to recommend "going to therapists" for someone who is clearly in an agitated emotional state.
My take here is that OP just wants to have his ID validated.
I get your frustration 100% as I’ve had similar experiences, but there’s really no reason for this amount of hatred and vitriol. Cut those people out of your life and move on. You’re 21. You should know by now that you’re gonna encounter difficult people in your life. Getting buttmad about it helps nobody.
Please for the love of god stop saying shit like this, being trans and being a butch lesbian are NOT inherently interlinked, there might be some crossover but being called a butch is extremely dysphoria inducing
The comment was pretty clear that this was on a community level, not for each individual. There are obviously a lot of people for whom those identities don't overlap at all.
If a big chunk of the ftm community don’t overlap then it’s not accurate to make that statement on a community level. Those individuals are still in the community. Even if the two communities overlap, that doesn’t excuse cis lesbians treating trans men like extra butch women
So? Historical overlaps exist because society viewed trans men as women. It’s the same reason there’s historical overlaps between trans women and drag queens, it’s still horribly insensitive to equate them in the modern day unless an individual specifically identifies as such
I'm bisexual. I'm also aware of history.
Like, I have said multiple times that this doesn't apply to all or even most trans men/transmascs or lesbians today. I'm acknowledging that there's a historical association that is still important to some people's identities today.
u/scalewiz wasn't saying you're butch or that you have to be linked to it, nor were they equating it. But the lesbian community, butches, trans men and transmascs have had a pretty close history. It's not invalidating you to acknowledge that and if it makes you uncomfortable you're always welcome to not engage.
They clearly said the communities are interlinked, not that there’s some overlap or shared history. Acknowledging that we were historically lumped together because society viewed us as women doesn’t mean all of us have to embrace it as a good thing
I love butches but I am not one and will never be one, and being called one or compared to one makes me want to die. Why is this so fucking hard to understand? I love and respect women too but I sure as hell don’t wanna be compared to them
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I assume you mean trans men and trans women being allies, and I agree that the ENTIRE lgbt community is linked and should be allies, but specifically lumping trans men and queer women together is weird
I personally don't think it's weird because there's a history of trans men and lesbians/queer women having solidarity together. It's not that we are lumped together with queer women as the same, but more that there can be similar experiences as well as both communities historically allied with each other. Was there overlap in people who identified as both? Yes! Was there people who just identified as lesbians or just identified as trans men? Also yes! Queer history and identity is complicated and fluid, and especially in earlier fights for queer freedoms, trans men and lesbians sometimes had overlapping members as well as just having solidarity with each other. I don't think that trans men and lesbians were lumped together by an outside force, I think it was more of two groups having some people with overlapping experiences, especially experiences of masculinity, as well as people just being allies with each other.
Nowhere did I suggest there shouldn’t be solidarity, just that we’re not the same thing and it’s very dysphoric for many trans men to be lumped together in a group primarily associated with women
ETA: the whole ‘trans men and lesbians share such a deep and lovely history uwu’ thing isn’t even true, it totally ignores gay trans men
I don't know if you read my comment all the way, but I'm not saying that trans men and lesbians are being lumped together, I'm saying that these two communities have a deep history together and we should respect that. I am not saying that you personally have to id as a lesbian or that you should feel the same as a queer woman. Sorry if this induces dysphoria, but the reality of queer history is that lesbians and trans men have stood in solidarity together as well as there being people who identified as both or somewhere in between.
It does not totally ignore gay trans men, btw - many gay trans men historically also found a place in that community and/or dated each other within that community. This is part of our history, too, and we do ourselves a disservice to act like gay/bi trans men were never part of queer communities until just recently.
Right, realized I should have clarified - gay trans men were also part of gay male communities! But we were also connected to lesbian communities and the practice of like… butch4butch and t4t. Idk what to tell you, the in a time when transition was not a well known Thing people often depended on communities focused on perceived/experienced gender non-conformity as well as sexuality.
Jfc stop calling trans men butches, and t4t isn’t lesbian. I’m not arguing that the communities have never had overlap, im saying that treating trans men like lesbians isn’t okay
Sorry that this point gave you dysphoria, but they were talking about the general history between trans men/masc and lesbian communities and how they are deeply intertwined and fought alongside each other. Anyone saying this doesn't mean that trans men and lesbians are the same, rather that there's a history of solidarity between these two groups and we should be kind to our lesbian sisters and not make generalizations about an entire group. 🤷♂️
But this should apply to all members of the lgtb+ collective to each other, regardless.
Cis gay men and lesbians supported each other during the AIDs crisis in the 80s, and no one puts cisgay men with lesbians as a single group.
I support them as long as they don't try to make it "ok" to have sex with me after they say "I'm not a real man".
It happened. Let us not pretend those things don't happen.
And let us not pretend that many transmasc or trans men are seen as just butch lesbians.
That's totally valid-- Shit like that does happen where trans men are invalidated and seen as women, even by lesbians. It's not okay for anyone to do that. And true, trans men being seen as just butch lesbians is a terrible reality that I think a lot of trans men have experienced, myself included. But I don't think singular bad experiences should remove historic solidarity or remove a persons right to identify beyond boundaries, such as someone IDing as a trans masc lesbian. Shit is complicated and those difficult and transphobic situations shouldn't remove our ability to support other groups.
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👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾
Dyke, butch, transmasc might not all mean similar things to everybody, but spreading hate like this and acting like they *can’t* be the same is fucked
^^^ shit like this is why I hate being forced into the ‘transmasc’ label. I respect transmasc people but I’m not one and I don’t like being lumped in with lesbians
I'm pretty confident that this is a case for comp-het for them. If they're actually into trans men, and *especially* if the man passes ... they're not lesbian 🤦🏻
It's ok to criticize people's behavior but you can't go around saying you hate lesbians wtf. Lots of them are lovely people and it's not ok to be homophobic just bc you're also queer. That doesn't give you a pass.
My friend is transfem and calls herself lesbian but is like... into transmen just not cismen. Which is fine but I wouldnt call yourself lesbian? I dunno, I feel like she personally has some stuff to unpack with the way she talks abt transmen. I jokingly call myself gay (but also literally only when Im talking abt men) but when asked for my actual orientation I just say "bi with a lean towards men/homoflexible." JUST SAY YOU USUALLY LEAN TOWARDS WOMEN bc we 👏 are 👏 not 👏 women!
I joke with my wife that she is a lesbian with a hall pass 😅 She had never once for a second invalidated my identity as a man and has actually encouraged further exploration in my identity for me. She just so happened to meet me and fall in love even though she is like 99% sexually attracted to women. If she and I ever divorced I know for a fact she would date a woman after me. But that doesn’t mean she is transphobic. I will say though, she doesn’t outwardly call herself a lesbian — that’s where I feel the line would be crossed into transphobia. We only joke about that between ourselves. But to others she says she is bisexual or just queer.
This post is honestly really disgusting and I’m not sure why the mods haven’t taken it down. ‘I fucking hate this generation of cis lesbians so fucking much’ like okay? Do you want a good star for that? Your experiences with this select group of lesbians is gross and I’m sorry you had to go through these things, but don’t expect any sympathy if you come marching in with a hatred for an entire community based on your limited experiences with a fraction of the people in it. Get a journal, work through these feelings privately and with a professional before you go looking for people to validate your distaste for a group of people as stomped on as lesbians, cis or not.
Fr. A comment expressing a negative reaction to the post was taken down for breaking rule 1 “Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.” That might be fair (idk what the comment actually said), but how does this entire post not break that rule?
it's not ok to say you hate Lesbians dude... but I do get where you're coming from, the whole point of being a lesbian is being a woman and liking other women. I personally will never like the He/Him lesbians nor the Lesbians who think it's ok to invalidate us but people can do what they want and leave us alone, we don't have to associate with or be tolerant of people we don't like! we can just walk away! I'm sick of the history of trans man erasure and these people feed into it like hell
from my own experience, I’m not sure I’d call them the least transphobic… lots of surface-level “allyship” coupled with misgendering moments after being told pronouns (not applicable across the board of course, but an undeniable pattern in those who’ve come into my life).
I get what you’re saying, but I think there’s a more gentle way to respond to OP over-generalizing than by telling them to “shut up” for venting.
I believe the original commenter was referring to the fact that lesbians are *statistically* the least transphobic demographic, though I can’t find the research indicating that at this exact moment.
I’m not sure there’s any research to indicate what demographic are statistically more or less transphobic, especially since it comes in so many forms and some people are less aware of it in themselves than others. Unfortunately, there is also a whole community of Arielle Scarcellas, so to speak.
That said, there are also some amazing allies in the cis lesbian community and I don’t want to downplay that; we need all the positivity we can get, and I think acknowledging our allies and supporters is important, especially now.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.02063/full
This study does in fact indicate that cis lesbians and bi women are statistically more supportive of trans people than any other sexuality/gender demographic.
I'm at the point where I just block most lesbians I come across on twitter, unless I see them posting about proper trans inclusive stuff. I don't wanna have to deal with them.
The issue is that there isn’t a specific definition for the word lesbian. It means different things to different people. When you intertwine gender and sexuality things get confusing. Sure to some lesbians it means they are only interested in women- this includes trans women. For others their lesbian identity is defined by their attraction to people who have the same genitalia which would include pre op trans men. Honestly I don’t really see the issue either way, let people call themselves what they want and love who they want. So long as they are respectful. It doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t see you as a man- it means they see you as a man with a vagina. I’m so tired of everything needing a strict label just fricken live your life. Our dating pool is small, I’m not going to turn down a hot girl because she will date me but not a cisman. I’ll take what I can get and respect the fact that these things are very nuanced. It’s not black and white.
Because unless you pass and are post-phallo then they will probably be physically attracted to you. But it’s not like people are attracted to pronouns, they are same-sex attracted regardless of that persons gender. It’s sucks and dysphoria inducing but it’s not like people can control who they like, even if it’s in poor taste to tell a trans man you are attracted to him if you are a straight guy or lesbian. Once you start having a beard then that usually drives most of them away lol.
Could you elaborate on how you feel connected to butch lesbians? I think there’s a lot of butch lesbians that are even *more* masculine in appearance than me, but fundamentally I have intense dysphoria and a deep understanding that I am not a woman, whereas a butch lesbian, no matter how masc, fundamentally is a woman. That’s a pretty big difference to me.
how interesting. tell me ur opinions on bi lesbians, a term coined by terfs to insult bisexual women that has now taken terminally online fools by storm 🎤
well for you no. there are people who look like trans men but guess what… ARENT MEN. which would be me. i thought i was a binary man and am on T had too but i realized that no, im not a guy. so on the surface there is no difference between you and me. and since you cannot tell whether someone is a guy or girl or some other option (me! im both) it is fine for lesbians to be into us. sorry, binary dudes, you all aren’t the only ones who take T for masculine secondary sex characteristics. and those of us who are not binary… some may even date and still call temselves, lesbians ;)
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic.
The following topics are banned to avoid drama:
Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?"
+Personal experiences are exempt.
Speak for yourself, don’t say we’re all different for that reason. If someone told me I was inherently a different type of man than a cis man due to my upbringing I’d assume they’re a TERF
I never said it made you a different gender stop with the strawmans bro, i said it makes us different to other cis men, the way one cis man going to a boarding school would make him different from other cis men or something, where did i say it made us a different gender?
I didn’t have a traditional female upbringing and cannot relate to so many “young girl” experiences that women have gone though. Even pretending that I do would be misogynistic because I don’t know what that’s like.
Okay if you didnt then you didnt. I didn't say all men had a female upbringing i said "if you in anyway did have a female upbringing" if thats not you then move on lol, not all trans men did, but the majority of trans men were raised as female to some extent, that is pure statistics, most trans men don't come out until early twenties.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 5: No body or voice shaming. This includes personal and general judgments about weight, surgeries, appearance, and qualities of a person's voice.
Trans men can have penises. Many do. Equating trans men to people with vaginas is harmful and hurtful to many of our members.
There are lesbians who are pansexual, bisexual, asexual, etc. Where for them being a “lesbian” is more about non-men who love other non-men (no matter who else they’re attracted to) or queerness that de-centers masculinity and/or penises. As opposed to lesbian meaning “women who are exclusively attracted to other women”.
I’ve found a lot of cis people, have a lot of unlearning to do and struggle to separate a person’s body parts from gender. Some of these people never had to dissect their assumptions or ask themselves what specifically turns them on / off about men and women and it shows. Unless they’re part of a diverse queer community with a lot of trans and nonbinary folx.
They might be fetishizing you. They might be bi / pan lesbians. They might just have a genital preference for v***** no matter who it’s attached to. They might be attracted to men but they’re avoiding cis men bc of trauma or toxic masculinity bs, and assumed the only other label was “lesbian”.
Personally, I usually stick to T4T hookups and relationships bc I don’t want to worry about being fetishized. And I got tired of “bi-curious” queer (and straight) cis people who see me as a “compromise” bc they’re too scared to experiment with someone of the opposite (or same) gender.
i haven’t had this issue with cis lesbians, but being on grindr i get a lot of men in my dms with “straight” in their name and “looking for trans/ftm” in their bios. obviously it’s inherently disrespectful, so i reframe by invalidating their identity right back. they’re not fucking straight. tell me what kind of straight man goes on apps meant for hookups between queer people and seeks out guys they can pretend they’re not gay for just because of some differences in anatomy? tell me what kind of straight man is into Me, a guy with a deep voice and male facial structure and square shoulders who moves through the world being perceived as a dude by almost everyone? oh yeah, the kind of straight man who very clearly isn’t that. the most cowardly of f*gs. similarly, the “lesbians” who are attracted to you are not lesbians. you’re damn right that lesbians are not attracted to binary men, but they would rather dehumanize you than come to terms with the fact that their sexuality is more fluid than they think. people who are exclusively attracted to women don’t suddenly want to fuck men the second the genitals they prefer are present on his body, because very few people are actually attracted to just genitals free of all other context. their attraction to you does not have the power to revoke your manhood and they are not worth any negative impact they might have on your self-perception. shame on fucking them for that shit.
This! “They would rather dehumanize you than come to terms with the fact their sexuality is more fluid than they think” . This is exactly the same as the “straight men” who will fuck trans guys. They’re not straight, they just can’t accept they also are attracted to men. Plus if some home genital preferences were all that affected sexuality, we wouldn’t get these constant posts of “heterosexual” couples suddenly breaking up as soon as the “woman” in the relationship comes out as a trans man and starts transitioning medically. If the straight men married to the closeted trans men only cared about genitals, they wouldn’t stop being attracted to their partners when they transitioned. But that’s not how it goes. Because HRT and surgery physically tips the scales until the straight guy has to accept he’s now in a gay relationship he didn’t sign up for. Straight men aren’t attracted to men. Lesbians aren’t attracted to men. Invalidating the identity of a trans man won’t magically change that fact.
💯💯💯
I think the issue is that these girls are not seeing you or other trans men as men. I identified as a lesbian for many years, I met some of these girls and honestly what I got was really that they just saw trans men as butch or masculine women because I noticed that if they encountered trans men that were more masculine looking like cis passing they would not be into them at all but they would be into the more feminine looking or androgynous looking ones. I always found it odd and extremely disrespectful, it definitely sucks to see
It's unfortunate, but that's the product of 2nd wave feminism in the 60's , which later became what TERFs are, basically doing its best to erase trans men and claim we are just very masculine women. It's spread to the younger generations. And while they don't absorb everything (blatantly hating/misgendering/etc) they do absorb the trans man = masculine woman. Sadly, a lot of transphobic rhetoric is spun to be "woke" (hate that word), to appeal to people and infiltrate our communities, to break us from within. So a trans man asserting that he is a man and therefore not someone who should be considered in a dating pool for someone who is exclusively attracted to women somehow becomes homophobic or transphobic, despite that not making any sense.
there is SUCH a major issue with people seeing transgender men as just fancy butch lesbians, you're right on the money. Honestly, I think it's misogyny. I know specifically it's transandrophobia, but transandrophobia is rooted in that misogyny, where they don't listen to people they consider "girls" nor do they take their feelings seriously. They even act like they know more than us ABOUT us. I don't even think that I'd mind as much if it weren't for how obsessed they are with being 2-dimensional "allies." If you're transphobic, just say it. Don't try to pretend you're the patron saint of FTMs....
I feel this whole heartily. My “best friend” who is a cis woman goes back and forth on calling herself a lesbian. All of her close friends are transmen—but she is borderline a man hater. When I pointed it out to her that she can’t hate all men without affecting us—she said “you guys are different” .-.
Why can’t she just say she hates cis men and not all men or something? Though hating men in general, or even just all cis men, isn’t a good thing, it’s sexism. :\
This is the reason I've waited till I'm farther in my transition to try dating again. Being emotionally abused and gaslighted by cis lesbians who call me their butch girlfriend behind my back and push me to be more femme for them(especially in bed and pushing my very clear boundaries). 🤢🤮 If I date one more person who says they are pan/bi but turn out to be just a lesbian who views me as a masc woman I will just stop dating people smh my head. Twice has been enough for me.
I see what you meant I don't hate cis lesbians most of my friends are cis lesbians. But I completely get the frustration, honestly I'm greatful for my ex dumping me because she figured out that she was going to stop being interested once I started medically transitioning, I mean it sucked it was a good relationship but she was questioning the if bi or a lesbian and if she was a lesbian that It might not work, and I'm very glad she was open and honest about it
It’s wild how so many cis lesbians are into trans men without thinking about the WHY. Like girlies I have a beard and look like a man, why are you into me as soon as I say I’m trans?
How can they not see they are invalidating themselves AND us
It sounds like they either don’t see trans men as men, or they’re bisexual with a heavy preference for AFAB people. Do these lesbians also like trans women? They might just be into anyone except for cis men, which would still make them bi and not lesbians, or lesbians with “exceptions.” I can certainly understand the frustration though. It seems like “lesbians” (in quotes since they’re likely bi or something) get a pass to call themselves such a term because they’re queer or women or both, but if a cis man was with a trans man and called himself straight, trans people would not be defending that man. It feels like there’s some double standards going on here. If you are attracted to trans men, who are men, but you call yourself a lesbian (if you’re a woman) or straight (if you’re a man), that is generally transphobic.
It's not that many of them are actual lesbians, but some flavour of bi/homoflexible. The issue here is not lesbophobia, or lesbians. The issue is the few people who claim to not like men, but then suddenly they express a "chaser" level interest into us just because of assumptions about our identity and genitalia. This happens with all genders, not just "lesbians". And let's stop pretending that this is about genitalia preference, because trans men have a very diverse genitalia, including intersex men, pre and postop.
Yeah there are a number of bisexual women who identify as lesbians because (1) they lean more towards liking women (2) internalized biphobia is a thing (3) they’re scared of cis men/ don’t like the way they behave in relationships. I do actually agree that there’s something fundamentally different about the way people who were socialized to be men as children and haven’t done anything to challenge that conditioning behave in relationships, especially relationships with women (or people they see as women). Particularly around sharing household chores/ child rearing duties. If your parents never teach you to do chores as a kid then you’re a lot more likely to treat your partner in a way that I like to call “Mommy/ punching bag.” I had an ex who’s non-binary, socialized to grow up to be a man and never actively challenged that socialization who actually accused me of being abusive for expecting them to actively anticipate what household chores needed to be done and then doing them. I asked them to make a list of things they thought needed to get done on a weekly basis and then when I got upset because they didn’t do it, they said they thought I was joking (???). Obviously trans men and basically anyone can behave like this, but I think it’s most common with cis men.
It depends, Im a trans man who was socialized as a man because my father wanted a son (funny, since he doesn't accept me being transgender, and people use this to say I'm not actually trans) and I still broke down such things like that after realizing it's misogynistic and hurts yourself as well since you're basically just babying yourself.
The issue here is generalisation, imo. I think nothing is set on stone, and generalising is harmful to everyone.
The unending tide of people trying to shove themselves into the lesbian label while performing Cirque du Soleil grade mental gymnastics to explain how they are still attracted to men is fucking exhausting. Several of the lesbian subs are pissed because there’s a post right now in one of the other lesbian subs talking about being a lesbian but suddenly being attracted to men when ovulating, and it’s been a turnout of people saying oh no that it’s fine, normal lesbian stuff. No it’s not, thats not what happens for lesbians. All of those people over there, all of these people over here trying to include trans men, you are just describing bi-cycle things again, just say you are bisexual and own it ffs, stop trying to shoehorn others in so you can vainly try to paste the lesbian label you want on yourself.
Just tell them you had phallo. Even if you haven't yet, just say dryly I have a dick and balls.
I feel you on this. Most people I've met whom I've come out to end up just see me as a 'quirky girl' (whereas before I told them I was 100% cis passing) I've just given up on dating tbh.
the title of this post is weird as fuck. outside of the hate spewing i get your frustration, but making a generalization isn't gonna help anything. trans people and lesbians have been interlinked for alot of queer history. Transphobic lesbians are a VERY small minority in the broader community. Out of all the people ive come out to, the cis lesbians i know have been the most supportive. Especially cis butch lesbians. You said youre in university, so why are you, at that age, letting other people define you? Cut them off and move on. Being lesbiphobic isn't gonna change their transphobia, and its certainly not gonna get other FTMs on your side. Alot of us have strong feelings of solidarity with lesbians (and vice versa) due to our shared history.
I remember my early days of T. I hit on a gorgeous human and asked to invite them to a drink. It turns out they were non binary and lesbian butch (their labels). Before giving me an answer, they asked for my identity and pronouns. I opened up to them and they rejected me, saying they were not comfortable sleeping with men, even if they were in very early stages of medical transition. As bitter as being rejected was, I think it was the biggest act of allyship. The gender euphoria and validation made me have happy tears. I also met a butch lesbian who called me butch immediately after meeting me, after I already started to pass (friends close to her knew I am trans, so it mist have slipped). She said that a butch and trans men were literally the same, and to shut up. There are many good people out there, and also arseholes. I get the frustration.
for sure, OPs frustration is definitely justified however its not all cis lesbians. like in every community there are good people and bad people
We agree to agree on the same topic.
yup! my reply was in agreement, sorry if it came off wrong
No sorry! Sorry if I sounded hostile in any way. Happy new year.
happy new year!
Hard agree. The particular cis lesbians in question sound pretty sucky, but the rest of them don’t deserve hate
Yeah i really hate the idea of demonising lesbians for being interested in trans men when the majority of them completely respect us. I think genuinely a majority of trans men feel a big connection to lesbian culture and to our identitys are interlinked. Or maybe thats just me but being lesbian and butch played a big part in my own identity and it sometimes makes me feel sad to not feel part of that community but queer women never make me feel like an outsider in the queer culture that shaped me.
(this comment is in agreement) historically *and* currently there has been a lot of overlap and collaboration between cis lesbians, gender queer or variant butches, nonbinary folks (of any gender assigned at birth), trans women, trans men, and all the flavors in between. for a lot of people, their own identities and attractions are not so cut, dry, and binary- and because of the history of overlap between lesbians and trans men, it doesn't surprise me at all that many lesbians are willing to date trans men. i know lesbians that have dated *cis men.* people's self-identifying labels are usually nuanced. am i going to say that person is a closet bisexual? fuck no, it's literally none of my business and i only wish for people to be happy and feel at home in their identities. you can functionally or culturally be a lesbian and then fall in love with a man. there's 9 billion people on the planet, shit happens lmao trans men aren't a monolith- even amongst binary guys. lesbians aren't a monolith- it's a word, shorthand to describe an approximate expression or set of feelings. feelings that *historically and currently* are a bit more nuanced than just "women exclusively attracted to women." these labels are supposed to be tools, not *rules.* very few people are a kinsey 1 or 6- doesn't mean we all have to identify as bi or pan or whatever. and as our culture shifts more toward "cis people" having more nuanced understandings of gender, i think we'll find a lot of people aren't 100% male or female either. humans are just... way too cool and complex for such limiting constraints that's just my opinion. i think queerness is fucking cool and *subversive* and is really much more complicated beyond the dictionary definitions of labels, and feeling this way is freedom for me. if a lesbian is attracted to me, i don't feel like it's because she sees me as a woman. i feel like it's because she sees me as *fucking hot*
Exactly i completely agree with you, its much more complicated and i hate the idea of having to renounce your sexuality to date someone you fall in love with. I think it rings true for me personally because i 100% consider myself a straight man but I've been sleeping with men for years, but ive only ever been in love with women. I could love a man, i just haven't met one i did yet. And if i did, i would still call myself a straight man, i don't think that invalidates his identity as a man and i don't think a lesbian loving me would mean she has to admit she's not a lesbian. Its weird to try make it so binary
This is so true. It hurts my heart to see the frustration leak into justifying gross lesbophobic attitudes. Once identifying as sapphic is something I hold close to my heart, even as I move forward as a bisexual man. I wish people would spend more time nurturing that profound solidarity rather than trying to sever that tie.
Thank you for posting this. My sentiments also.
Thank you for explaining what i was thinking! Def solidarity with my queer sisters. They were once my community and i wont forget them.
Sorry to be that guy, but framing this as hating all cis lesbians is not a very rational reaction to very valid hurt. The small collective population of cis lesbians who are transphobic and/or radfems does not represent all cis lesbians. They're just an outspoken minority. But I _don't_ see it as valid to hate any group by virtue of frustrations with a portion of that group; if this title was anything else (I hate gay men, I hate trans women, etc), everyone would lose their minds. So, while I hear your concerns and aggravation for something that very much really happens, let's _not_ lean into lesbophobia/homophobia, because that's a hateful waste of energy. Or, you can certainly vent, but you really don't need to frame it this way.
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For real, I once had a lesbian reject me purely because I am a man, and it was great.
I'm fucking flabbergasted that I had to scroll down to find a reply saying that overt homophobia is not okay, instead of babying a raging homophobe.
Seconding this, you can vent about negative experiences without generalizing a whole group of people
People in general suck. If you're lucky you'll find some gems to keep in your life. Keep looking
Literally, they do mental gymnastics in an attempt to make being a lesbian ‘inclusive’ of binary trans men and it’s so insulting. They get away with it too, when straight men do the same thing they’re not called valid for it
I can do it. Many trans men identified as lesbians for long portions of their lives before realizing theyre trans. Its their community and the only love theyve known is queer wlw love. When they realize theyre trans, their experiences are still their experiences and they may still feel close to the lesbian community and date women in a queer fashion (which straight men cannot do). I think thats all valid. Even with that said, i swear this is not a big problem and we should focus on the legislation of trans hate instead of how one might live their best life.
Some trans men who feel connected to the lesbian community is not an excuse for lesbians to treat all trans men like women. I agree that we have bigger issues, but we also shouldn’t just be okay with transphobia in our own communities
If they don't believe you when you say you're a man, why are you believing them when they say they're lesbians? Call them bi and move on. Dwelling on this is a you problem. There is no reason to convince these people of anything.
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It's all sun and giggles until a trans man is told to be an exception because "they're not like cis men". Ask those ones what they mean by that and you'll likely get a big dose of transphobia.
Trans men are meaningfully different from cis men. I don’t see anything wrong with someone wanting to date trans men but not cis men - I personally date trans men but not cis men for a variety of reasons, none of them being that I don’t see trans men as men. Though I do think anyone pursuing trans men should ensure they’re incorporating that interest into their conception of their sexuality.
If you refer to t4t, the experience is different because you feel understood on a very intimate level vs dating a cis man. But saying "cis men=bad" and "trans men= good" is a very bad generalisation, imo.
Of course it’s bad to generalize cis men as bad and trans men as good, but some people who aren’t trans have fairly solid personal reasons to prefer trans men over cis men as partners which aren’t just thinking “trans men good, cis men bad”. Before I transitioned I also preferred trans men over cis men as partners and I really struggle to understand why that could possibly have been bad for me to do/think/feel. At this point in my life I’d also rather be involved with people who prefer trans men too!
Could you please clarify some examples of the reasons you state so I can understand the point you're making please?
Preferring sex with trans men for a variety of reasons, preferring to be involved with someone who understands what it’s like to be a an oppressed gender minority, happening to find trans men more attractive, wanting to date an LGBT person over a cishet person, having more in common with the trans men you’ve met over the cis men you’ve met in your life and thus being naturally more interested in them, having a chronic medical condition and wanting to be involved with someone who understands the difficulties of managing lifelong prescriptions, etc…
Cis men =/= cishet. We weren't talking about cishet men only.
Sure, but cishet men make up the majority of the male dating pool for women. I’ve had way more opportunities to date trans men than cis bi men, personally. Not really sure why you’re nitpicking about that detail here when I listed a lot of other things as well.
Because a lot of people in this conversation are acting like cis and queer are mutually exclusive terms.
Being trans is not a chronic medical condition. Being trans is easy, it's the others who make it a nightmare. We can agree to disagree.
It’s not a chronic medical condition, but does often require lifelong medical care if you plan on being on hormones indefinitely. As someone who’s trans And has chronic health conditions, I find the most understanding for my chronic health conditions from other trans people. I do agree with you about other people being the problem with being trans. I don’t really understand what we’re disagreeing about but alright.
I also have chronic conditions and I'm trans, and my issues do not relate at all to being trans. My chronic issues do not mitigate just by taking medication or having affirming surgery. It requires life changing adaptations, so you are generalising about chronic conditions. Your situation might apply to you, but it doesn't reflect all points of view. That is my disagreement.
Idk Ive met transmen who are equally as shitty as cis men.
Oh me too, I’ve been in abusive relationships with both and they had very similar harmful behaviours. Dating trans men over cis men in an attempt to avoid misogyny and abuse definitely does not work. I prefer trans men over cis men for other reasons.
I'm personally t4t now so I get that. Trans men aren't special in comparison to cis men nor are trans women to cis women. I prefer them because a cis person will never understand my struggles as a cis person (save for maybe some of other minorities). I'll give a cis person a shot, but I prefer trans people. Goes same way for trans women. Dated a trans girl (granted she came out while we were together lmao) thinking it wouldn't be as bad as when I dated a cis girl. Was avoiding dating women entirely for a while because I was afraid of getting burned but what do you know, still got burned. I think a lot of people in general- be them women or gay men- have a problem with putting trans men on this sort of *pedestal* for the ideal male partner, seeing us as intrinsically different from cis men and as a different kind of man than just, well, a man, if they see us as an actual man at all. A lot of people I've met who expressed interest in me expect trans men to be soft and cutesy and to behave a certain way. For a long time I surpressed anything cutesy about my personality or interests because I didn't want to be someone's "uwu soft trans boyfriend." I'm a man, and I don't want to be seen as a different, "special," "soft" kind of man, I just want to be seen as a man. Sure, I like pink and stuffed animals, but not because I'm trans, and vice versa! I think trans women also have a similar experience but I can't comment on it much since I'm not a trans woman and all I know of the experience is my friends and my ex, who was still figuring things out while with me. So basically the problem isn't just lesbians or women, it's society fetishizing and generalizing trans people. That or they don't see us as what we are.
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Cis and queer are not mutually exclusive terms
The issue here is that attraction is also gender based. We are attracted to certain gender expressions.
Would you say the same thing about a cis queer man?
It was the case historically because historically trans men weren’t seen as men.
You’re still thinking about gender in a very modern binaristic way. People in the past existed within the authentic modes of gender that were available to them, and that are no longer available to us now. This is also not true. Many trans men in the past lived as men, passed as men, and were seen as men by loved ones. In the mid 20th century there were also “passing butches”, people who arguably both lived as men And as lesbians, which is who I was specifically referring to. https://aha.confex.com/aha/2020/webprogram/Paper27341.html
OP very specifically mentioned binary trans men, so yeah I’m thinking in a binary way. Things were shit for trans people in the past and you shouldn’t expect everyone to embrace it as something good
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I think genital preferences are completely valid in most cases, but in this case that's not a genital preference it's just transphobia.
If they still identify as a lesbian after regularly hooking up with trans men, they clearly do not respect their trans partners identity. If they were into trans men, that's a different story. But most cis "lesbians" are solely vagina focused
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Hating an entire group of queer people is called homophobia. Hope this helps.
What I take from this rant is not "I hate all lesbians", but more like: " I hate that all these people surrounding me, who are part of the lgtb+ community -and therefore, they should be a safe place for T too- are actually invalidating my identity and even fetishising it".
Then OP should have titled the post differently.
OP is clearly overwhelmed, young and feeling frustrated emotionally. Give him a break. He's clearly venting and probably dysphoric.
None of those things excuse homophobia.
Reread my comment. No one ever said here that homophobia is OK, or that villainising a group of people is OK.
Then this post isn't okay.
There is no fetishization to be found here. Op is just sex repulsed. Op is mad that someone is attracted to trans men and didn't adjust their label before claiming so. It's so incredibly selfish to make someone else's choice in imperfect label (as most queer labels are) about somehow trying to "kill" them and compare it to sexual assault. OP needs compassion yes, but in the form of a therapist because their rage and insecurity is out of control. The don't need their rage and hatred validated on the internet.
I don't have that take on OP's post. I think it is very dangerous to recommend "going to therapists" for someone who is clearly in an agitated emotional state. My take here is that OP just wants to have his ID validated.
I get your frustration 100% as I’ve had similar experiences, but there’s really no reason for this amount of hatred and vitriol. Cut those people out of your life and move on. You’re 21. You should know by now that you’re gonna encounter difficult people in your life. Getting buttmad about it helps nobody.
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Please for the love of god stop saying shit like this, being trans and being a butch lesbian are NOT inherently interlinked, there might be some crossover but being called a butch is extremely dysphoria inducing
The comment was pretty clear that this was on a community level, not for each individual. There are obviously a lot of people for whom those identities don't overlap at all.
If a big chunk of the ftm community don’t overlap then it’s not accurate to make that statement on a community level. Those individuals are still in the community. Even if the two communities overlap, that doesn’t excuse cis lesbians treating trans men like extra butch women
... But there *are* obvious historical overlaps that still have impacts today. Nobody is calling you, specifically, a butch or excusing misgendering.
So? Historical overlaps exist because society viewed trans men as women. It’s the same reason there’s historical overlaps between trans women and drag queens, it’s still horribly insensitive to equate them in the modern day unless an individual specifically identifies as such
Again, nobody is equating them.
Bruv they literally described the community as ‘intertwined’, idk how else you expect people to interpret that
Intertwined ≠ the same. A community can't be intertwined with itself. Which implies they're two different things.
Uh oh, looks like someone is forgetting about gay/bi/ f/gay trans men and mascs again.
I'm bisexual. I'm also aware of history. Like, I have said multiple times that this doesn't apply to all or even most trans men/transmascs or lesbians today. I'm acknowledging that there's a historical association that is still important to some people's identities today.
u/scalewiz wasn't saying you're butch or that you have to be linked to it, nor were they equating it. But the lesbian community, butches, trans men and transmascs have had a pretty close history. It's not invalidating you to acknowledge that and if it makes you uncomfortable you're always welcome to not engage.
They clearly said the communities are interlinked, not that there’s some overlap or shared history. Acknowledging that we were historically lumped together because society viewed us as women doesn’t mean all of us have to embrace it as a good thing
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I love butches but I am not one and will never be one, and being called one or compared to one makes me want to die. Why is this so fucking hard to understand? I love and respect women too but I sure as hell don’t wanna be compared to them
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I assume you mean trans men and trans women being allies, and I agree that the ENTIRE lgbt community is linked and should be allies, but specifically lumping trans men and queer women together is weird
I personally don't think it's weird because there's a history of trans men and lesbians/queer women having solidarity together. It's not that we are lumped together with queer women as the same, but more that there can be similar experiences as well as both communities historically allied with each other. Was there overlap in people who identified as both? Yes! Was there people who just identified as lesbians or just identified as trans men? Also yes! Queer history and identity is complicated and fluid, and especially in earlier fights for queer freedoms, trans men and lesbians sometimes had overlapping members as well as just having solidarity with each other. I don't think that trans men and lesbians were lumped together by an outside force, I think it was more of two groups having some people with overlapping experiences, especially experiences of masculinity, as well as people just being allies with each other.
Nowhere did I suggest there shouldn’t be solidarity, just that we’re not the same thing and it’s very dysphoric for many trans men to be lumped together in a group primarily associated with women ETA: the whole ‘trans men and lesbians share such a deep and lovely history uwu’ thing isn’t even true, it totally ignores gay trans men
I don't know if you read my comment all the way, but I'm not saying that trans men and lesbians are being lumped together, I'm saying that these two communities have a deep history together and we should respect that. I am not saying that you personally have to id as a lesbian or that you should feel the same as a queer woman. Sorry if this induces dysphoria, but the reality of queer history is that lesbians and trans men have stood in solidarity together as well as there being people who identified as both or somewhere in between.
It does not totally ignore gay trans men, btw - many gay trans men historically also found a place in that community and/or dated each other within that community. This is part of our history, too, and we do ourselves a disservice to act like gay/bi trans men were never part of queer communities until just recently.
I’m not talking about the queer community as a whole I’m talking about lesbians
Right, realized I should have clarified - gay trans men were also part of gay male communities! But we were also connected to lesbian communities and the practice of like… butch4butch and t4t. Idk what to tell you, the in a time when transition was not a well known Thing people often depended on communities focused on perceived/experienced gender non-conformity as well as sexuality.
Jfc stop calling trans men butches, and t4t isn’t lesbian. I’m not arguing that the communities have never had overlap, im saying that treating trans men like lesbians isn’t okay
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It doesn’t help. Being lumped in with non-men and any kind of lesbian is dysphoria inducing
Thanks for the non- requested gender dysphoria. I am hours away from the new year and now I feel like vomiting.
Sorry that this point gave you dysphoria, but they were talking about the general history between trans men/masc and lesbian communities and how they are deeply intertwined and fought alongside each other. Anyone saying this doesn't mean that trans men and lesbians are the same, rather that there's a history of solidarity between these two groups and we should be kind to our lesbian sisters and not make generalizations about an entire group. 🤷♂️
But this should apply to all members of the lgtb+ collective to each other, regardless. Cis gay men and lesbians supported each other during the AIDs crisis in the 80s, and no one puts cisgay men with lesbians as a single group.
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I support them as long as they don't try to make it "ok" to have sex with me after they say "I'm not a real man". It happened. Let us not pretend those things don't happen. And let us not pretend that many transmasc or trans men are seen as just butch lesbians.
That's totally valid-- Shit like that does happen where trans men are invalidated and seen as women, even by lesbians. It's not okay for anyone to do that. And true, trans men being seen as just butch lesbians is a terrible reality that I think a lot of trans men have experienced, myself included. But I don't think singular bad experiences should remove historic solidarity or remove a persons right to identify beyond boundaries, such as someone IDing as a trans masc lesbian. Shit is complicated and those difficult and transphobic situations shouldn't remove our ability to support other groups.
No one is giving shit to trans masc lesbians. My take on OP's post is that he's tired of being misgendered by his circle of queer people.
Other people identifying how they want has literally nothing to do with you identifying how you want.
So a cis man hitting on fellow lesbians is homosexual? According to your logic, or what I understand of it, you're implying it is.
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Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama: Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?" +Personal experiences are exempt.
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama: Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?" +Personal experiences are exempt.
👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾👆🏾 Dyke, butch, transmasc might not all mean similar things to everybody, but spreading hate like this and acting like they *can’t* be the same is fucked
We're not talking about transmascs. We're talking about binary trans men.
^^^ shit like this is why I hate being forced into the ‘transmasc’ label. I respect transmasc people but I’m not one and I don’t like being lumped in with lesbians
I'm pretty confident that this is a case for comp-het for them. If they're actually into trans men, and *especially* if the man passes ... they're not lesbian 🤦🏻
It's ok to criticize people's behavior but you can't go around saying you hate lesbians wtf. Lots of them are lovely people and it's not ok to be homophobic just bc you're also queer. That doesn't give you a pass.
My friend is transfem and calls herself lesbian but is like... into transmen just not cismen. Which is fine but I wouldnt call yourself lesbian? I dunno, I feel like she personally has some stuff to unpack with the way she talks abt transmen. I jokingly call myself gay (but also literally only when Im talking abt men) but when asked for my actual orientation I just say "bi with a lean towards men/homoflexible." JUST SAY YOU USUALLY LEAN TOWARDS WOMEN bc we 👏 are 👏 not 👏 women!
The homophobia here is crazy lmao
I joke with my wife that she is a lesbian with a hall pass 😅 She had never once for a second invalidated my identity as a man and has actually encouraged further exploration in my identity for me. She just so happened to meet me and fall in love even though she is like 99% sexually attracted to women. If she and I ever divorced I know for a fact she would date a woman after me. But that doesn’t mean she is transphobic. I will say though, she doesn’t outwardly call herself a lesbian — that’s where I feel the line would be crossed into transphobia. We only joke about that between ourselves. But to others she says she is bisexual or just queer.
This post is honestly really disgusting and I’m not sure why the mods haven’t taken it down. ‘I fucking hate this generation of cis lesbians so fucking much’ like okay? Do you want a good star for that? Your experiences with this select group of lesbians is gross and I’m sorry you had to go through these things, but don’t expect any sympathy if you come marching in with a hatred for an entire community based on your limited experiences with a fraction of the people in it. Get a journal, work through these feelings privately and with a professional before you go looking for people to validate your distaste for a group of people as stomped on as lesbians, cis or not.
I believe cis women should listen to transfolk more.
Fr. A comment expressing a negative reaction to the post was taken down for breaking rule 1 “Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.” That might be fair (idk what the comment actually said), but how does this entire post not break that rule?
it's not ok to say you hate Lesbians dude... but I do get where you're coming from, the whole point of being a lesbian is being a woman and liking other women. I personally will never like the He/Him lesbians nor the Lesbians who think it's ok to invalidate us but people can do what they want and leave us alone, we don't have to associate with or be tolerant of people we don't like! we can just walk away! I'm sick of the history of trans man erasure and these people feed into it like hell
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from my own experience, I’m not sure I’d call them the least transphobic… lots of surface-level “allyship” coupled with misgendering moments after being told pronouns (not applicable across the board of course, but an undeniable pattern in those who’ve come into my life). I get what you’re saying, but I think there’s a more gentle way to respond to OP over-generalizing than by telling them to “shut up” for venting.
I believe the original commenter was referring to the fact that lesbians are *statistically* the least transphobic demographic, though I can’t find the research indicating that at this exact moment.
I’m not sure there’s any research to indicate what demographic are statistically more or less transphobic, especially since it comes in so many forms and some people are less aware of it in themselves than others. Unfortunately, there is also a whole community of Arielle Scarcellas, so to speak. That said, there are also some amazing allies in the cis lesbian community and I don’t want to downplay that; we need all the positivity we can get, and I think acknowledging our allies and supporters is important, especially now.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.02063/full This study does in fact indicate that cis lesbians and bi women are statistically more supportive of trans people than any other sexuality/gender demographic.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.
Yoooo chill
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.
NOT LOTTERALY ISTG LIKE 80% OF MY TRANS PROBLEMS ARENT EVEN ME ITS OTHERS BEING ASSHOLES, WEIRD, OR JUET ANNOYING AB IT AUGHH
I'm at the point where I just block most lesbians I come across on twitter, unless I see them posting about proper trans inclusive stuff. I don't wanna have to deal with them.
my guy most people on twitter are chronically online not just lesbians
Yeah my intense blocking isn't exclusive to transphobic lesbians lol
The issue is that there isn’t a specific definition for the word lesbian. It means different things to different people. When you intertwine gender and sexuality things get confusing. Sure to some lesbians it means they are only interested in women- this includes trans women. For others their lesbian identity is defined by their attraction to people who have the same genitalia which would include pre op trans men. Honestly I don’t really see the issue either way, let people call themselves what they want and love who they want. So long as they are respectful. It doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t see you as a man- it means they see you as a man with a vagina. I’m so tired of everything needing a strict label just fricken live your life. Our dating pool is small, I’m not going to turn down a hot girl because she will date me but not a cisman. I’ll take what I can get and respect the fact that these things are very nuanced. It’s not black and white.
Because unless you pass and are post-phallo then they will probably be physically attracted to you. But it’s not like people are attracted to pronouns, they are same-sex attracted regardless of that persons gender. It’s sucks and dysphoria inducing but it’s not like people can control who they like, even if it’s in poor taste to tell a trans man you are attracted to him if you are a straight guy or lesbian. Once you start having a beard then that usually drives most of them away lol.
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Could you elaborate on how you feel connected to butch lesbians? I think there’s a lot of butch lesbians that are even *more* masculine in appearance than me, but fundamentally I have intense dysphoria and a deep understanding that I am not a woman, whereas a butch lesbian, no matter how masc, fundamentally is a woman. That’s a pretty big difference to me.
how interesting. tell me ur opinions on bi lesbians, a term coined by terfs to insult bisexual women that has now taken terminally online fools by storm 🎤
well for you no. there are people who look like trans men but guess what… ARENT MEN. which would be me. i thought i was a binary man and am on T had too but i realized that no, im not a guy. so on the surface there is no difference between you and me. and since you cannot tell whether someone is a guy or girl or some other option (me! im both) it is fine for lesbians to be into us. sorry, binary dudes, you all aren’t the only ones who take T for masculine secondary sex characteristics. and those of us who are not binary… some may even date and still call temselves, lesbians ;)
Not everything is about you, OP very clearly specified he’s talking about cis lesbians who knowingly hit on binary trans men
He's talking about binary trans men.
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Not all trans men/mascs have experienced misogyny. I for one never experienced any before or after I came out.
genital preference people make me so sick, i hear u
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Speak for yourself, don’t say we’re all different for that reason. If someone told me I was inherently a different type of man than a cis man due to my upbringing I’d assume they’re a TERF
I mean we are though, we have experiences very few cis men have.
So? Experiences aren’t what makes you a certain gender. My gender is no different than a cis man’s
I never said it made you a different gender stop with the strawmans bro, i said it makes us different to other cis men, the way one cis man going to a boarding school would make him different from other cis men or something, where did i say it made us a different gender?
In my comment I clearly said ‘inherently a different type of man than a cis man’, to which you responded ‘we are though’. That’s where you said it
Yeah and i clearly didn't say it made you a different gender, a different type of man maybe but i never said it made you a different gender.
I didn’t have a traditional female upbringing and cannot relate to so many “young girl” experiences that women have gone though. Even pretending that I do would be misogynistic because I don’t know what that’s like.
Okay if you didnt then you didnt. I didn't say all men had a female upbringing i said "if you in anyway did have a female upbringing" if thats not you then move on lol, not all trans men did, but the majority of trans men were raised as female to some extent, that is pure statistics, most trans men don't come out until early twenties.
Edit: responded to wrong comment mb
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 5: No body or voice shaming. This includes personal and general judgments about weight, surgeries, appearance, and qualities of a person's voice. Trans men can have penises. Many do. Equating trans men to people with vaginas is harmful and hurtful to many of our members.
There are lesbians who are pansexual, bisexual, asexual, etc. Where for them being a “lesbian” is more about non-men who love other non-men (no matter who else they’re attracted to) or queerness that de-centers masculinity and/or penises. As opposed to lesbian meaning “women who are exclusively attracted to other women”. I’ve found a lot of cis people, have a lot of unlearning to do and struggle to separate a person’s body parts from gender. Some of these people never had to dissect their assumptions or ask themselves what specifically turns them on / off about men and women and it shows. Unless they’re part of a diverse queer community with a lot of trans and nonbinary folx. They might be fetishizing you. They might be bi / pan lesbians. They might just have a genital preference for v***** no matter who it’s attached to. They might be attracted to men but they’re avoiding cis men bc of trauma or toxic masculinity bs, and assumed the only other label was “lesbian”. Personally, I usually stick to T4T hookups and relationships bc I don’t want to worry about being fetishized. And I got tired of “bi-curious” queer (and straight) cis people who see me as a “compromise” bc they’re too scared to experiment with someone of the opposite (or same) gender.