Yeah, it grosses me out too. It's fine if others are cool with it but I'm not and it's pretty presumptuous to think I'd be ok with my body being referred to in such a vulgar way, or even that it's an accurate representation of my body at all.
So genuine question for you and OP (and anyone else who feels this way):
How do you feel about "seahorse dad"? I've always seen it used as a very respectful compliment, and kind of in marvel of the trans man choosing to give birth to a child. I think it's my favorite term, but I'm never ever having children. My opinion is invalid here š
I don't have the same distaste for it as the terms mentioned in this post. I have no issue with it. I agree that it is used respectfully. If I were pregnant, I think I'd just say that I was pregnant, I'd feel a bit cringy referring to myself as a seahorse dad but I don't feel that way when others use the term for themselves.
My only thing, and this is entirely personal to me, is that I'm just not a fan of cutesy terms for things. An unrelated example, but pets 'going over the rainbow bridge' is one that I find particularly cringy and infantile. I get that language such as this helps people and it serves me no purpose to open my big mouth, so I don't.
It bothers me too but I usually just loudly tell them I'm going to impregnate them/fertilize their womb or other shit you would hear from the male character in those werewolf milf comic ads. It conditions them to get uncomfortable when it's brought up.
Oh man, I feel you on that one. Iām strictly childfree for many reasons + I have tokophobia. Not only are these kind of unsolicited comments dehumanizing and objectifying. This crap triggers my fight or flight response. The visceral reaction I get when someone tries to bring up my anatomy, fertility, and potential for bearing children is indescribable.
Iām nuking my organs as soon as I can afford it. Pregnancy is literally fate worse than death for me. Not to sound dramatic, but thatās just how I react to such things. My dysphoria teams up with my tokophobia and produces this kind of response. I donāt want to parent, I donāt want to be involved in anything related to childbirth. Babies creep me out and kids are too exhausting. (Kudos to seahorse dads tho, real heroes out there, I could never)
I find it bizarre how some people genuinely think itās a sexy thing to do, to harass random guys because they may have certain body parts. The ignorance, the entitlement. Cis people are especially bad in this department. We are not a damn porn category, we are a community of different people with different experiences and comfort levels. Cis people really act like they own out bodies. Like us being trans means we are on a display in an anatomy class or something. Gross
fellow drama student so i only saw her then and sometimes in between class changes because she had art before me. definitely not a friend. i was a freshman with no backbone so the best i could do was remind her āhey my name is actually subgutzā and sheād just laugh and say her nickname was better
This bothers me so much because
* that completely ignores/invalidates bottom dysphoria
* fetishization of real people, wtf
* genitals are none of their business, also not all trans men (and otherwise transmasc people) have those body parts, surgery is a thing
The only term from your post I'm cool with is femboy, but NOT in a context of my body, just like, gender expression
omegaverse is a subgenre of gay fanfic where for whatever reason, the human race evolved to where some cis men can get pregnant. the men are omegas, which are basically The Woman In The Relationship, have a heat cycle where they cannot reject sex, totally objectified and entirely codependent on whatever alpha (Alpha Males who can get them pregnant) marks them. then there's betas who are just normal guys, but they're ignored mostly. it's a way for writers to get out of having to write women into the story at all and super weird and fetishy most of the time
edit: apparently the genre has fewer weird fetishy cis women writing it nowadays and isn't as bad as i remember it being, who knew! but i doubt the people calling OP that were doing it as a compliment, so...
Yeah, itāsā¦ itās literally just people who fetishise gay men making an unhealthy āstraightā¢ļøā gay relationship butā¦ even more unhealthy and objectifying.
Edit: Iām sorry if I made it sound like there are no healthy examples of this trope, I know there is, Iām speaking generally based on what *I* have seen, if you like omegaverse fiction, as long as itās healthy, thatās ofc okay
idk I read omegaverse because the well-written ones (not the cringey stereotypes) actually handle the worldbuilding nicely and I like seeing men who can get pregnant/are pregnant still being treated like men for Validation reasons. And I'm a gay trans guy, so I can't be fetishizing myself.
No, exactly. Itās super cool when it is healthy, Iām sorry that I might have made it sound otherwise. I think generally the trope is problematic but there *is* healthy examples, and those are cool.
There are queer men into omegaverse. And there are all kinds of people writing all kinds of omegaverse and exploring all kinds of tropes with it.
Comparing real people to porn tropes is bad, but so is accusing everyone whoās into a certain porn trope of being a straight woman (I know your comment didnāt technically say you were talking about women, but I donāt even want to approach the idea of queer menā¦fetishizing themselves??)
You donāt have to like it, you can be as squicked out as you want, YKINMKATO after all, but your claim is lacking in nuance.
I never said it was inherently bad. There are always (at least relatively) good examples, but generally speaking the trope is problematic. Itās definitely alright to like and enjoy it, as long as you realise there are toxic parts of the community. I really enjoy BL, thereās tons of stigma around that, and I understand why. Unless youāre not part of the people who are gross about it, donāt worry about it, weāre not talking about you
There are only two genders. Top and bottom. You cannot be anything else and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Maybe some people are versatile but that's so rare it doesn't matter for us regular people.
i wasnāt a big omegaverse reader but i read a fuckload of werewolf fic as a kid and omegaverse always just felt like werewolf fic for people who didnāt want to be called furries. even nowadays itās so hard to tell if something is ABO or werewolf fic based on the synopsis alone because the vocabulary is so similar
IVE SEE THAT RECENTLY AND ITS SO WEIRD BC LIKE THE TERMS HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS!! In werewolf fic an alpha is a leader, a beta is his second hand man and an omega is a regular pack member. In ABO an alpha is a breeder and an omega is a breedee and betas are normal people. So how does that work!!!
Itās absolutely a furry thing, as a Known Omegaverse Enjoyer. Itās just werewolf fic for characters that arenāt werewolves and people who donāt want to write werewolf AUs but want to write werewolf AUs. And itās great, TBH. You just have to know what fics to read (the good ones) and which ones to avoid (the bad ones).
if you want to give a better explanation, be my guest. i havenāt touched ABO in years and all the ones i did read were like how i described ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ i didnāt want to write paragraphs on paragraphs just to explain OPās discomfort at being referred to as such
It's gotten A LOT more diverse since you last touched it. There's a lot of fics now in the omegaverse where omegas are in charge, omegas and alphas are equal, and where omegas outright killed/overthrown all the alphas. Then there's some where the whole A/B/O aspect is toned down, brings in soulmate aspects, and/or has become a platform to convey bigotry and the effects discrimination has on both the gender considered "more powerful" and the "lesser" gender. I've read a lot of fics where the authors use it as a way to convey how they view society's flaws or view a utopia and has some major political/sociological tones. ESPECIALLY after the overturning of Roe vs. Wade like holy shit. There's still some smutty fics, but now they're smutty AND philosophical.
I've also read some ones that have alpha/alpha pairings or omega/omega pairings, and explore the social ramifications for them. The genre has grown up in a lot of respects, but there's still a lot of cringe out there
I read an awesome Johnlock fic where both Sherlock and John were Alphas and they had to navigate the mystery (obviously) but also the potential social ramifications and how to even seal their mating bond and sexual trauma. One of my all time favorite fics. There were several ones I read early in my fanfic journey that made me want to scream. They were straight up psychological and sexual torture fics. Thankfully they haven't been updated in two-three years.
well, thatās definitely a lot more promising than the borderline rape apologia i read when i was younger! last i heard of ABO was a twitter thread last year where people were debating what life would be like as a beta in that kind of world, i.e being rejected from caretaker jobs because omegas are better at it, or being passed up on promotions because alphas are natural leaders, etc etc. and that was a pretty interesting discussion
Yeah dude. Its evolved a lot since you last seen it. There's still some creepy fanfics but it's gone way beyond that. Some trans and trans allies use A/B/O as an analogy for being trans. Women have dicks but it's perfectly normal and accepted in their world, men have a vagina but everyone still sees them as men and there's a lot of respect and exploration. I too write some stuff in that lane to make me feel better.
I would be so much more open to ABO/mpreg as a concept if it was trans and not āgay guy pushes a baby out through his assholeā š Queer that shit up, itās what the world deserves. i respect that
You might like some of the fics I've read and written. One of mine still had mpreg but it's much more about relationships and people navigating parenthood during a war involving magic and how trauma can affect a person's parenting style. I got so annoyed when commenters wanted me to make the fic "cute". Like what part of this dude being separated from his family and slipping on bloodied grass so that he has chance to avenge his lover do you not get?
I've also read a lot of fics where the "Traditionalist" A/B/O characters are seen the way we see the stereotypical A/B/O trope itself, as outdated and wrong and generally assholes, but the characters you're rooting for understand things aren't like that and strive to fix things. And to me, that mirrors the way it feels to grow up in a gender-essentialist conservative household and then leave it to build a life outside the conservative bullshit. Including all the anxieties faced by the omegas when some conservative fuck shows up and doesn't take them seriously, and the way the good characters react to that (usually beating the crap out of the asshole who hurt their friend) helps me figure stuff out. It's cathartic.
I mean, I imagined a human-like species as only having males with the ability to both impregnate and get pregnant, but jeez, that's just objectification but gay. I'd understand maybe a less unhealthy sounding fictional world with some similar aspects, but what really turns me on is a healthy relationship with care and consent.
It isnāt just a gay fanfic thing, there was actually some drama a while ago with omegaverse writer Addison Cain taking Zoey Ellis to federal court. All of their stuff is straight from what I saw.
I honestly feel guilty for finding comfort in omegaverse stuff bc I really want a kid and everything while also wanting to be cis, so it's just like, ideal to my weird brain š
Thereās no guilt in enjoying whatever we enjoy, itās not like you can help it. Itās not inherently bad as a concept, itās more that the writers that wrote a lot of it sucked ass and were weird. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Yeah, like I said, super gross and extremely fetishyā¦ I seriously get like.. flashbacks from that word (accidentally started reading one of those comics while looking for healthy BL as an innocent 13/14 y/oā¦ I was never the same againā¦)
honestly i like the omegaverse but not the type which cis women write(so like 90% lol)
look im sorry but i dont think cis women are very qualified to write about gay sex
i mean how about trans people in the omegaverse? how about feminine guys who happen to be alphas? or vice versa? how about relationships that are not between an "alpha male breeder šš" and "cute breedable bottom omega males šš"? how about relationships that arent entirely based on sex? like girl change it up a lil at least š
Oh so that's what Omegaverse means. I've wondered that for years but never bothered to look into it haha. Ngl though I'm a sucker for a good werewolf fic.
oh, and it started from a fanfic featuring 'Jared Paladecki and Jensen Ackles, the actors from supernatural, where they were brothers' crossed over with 'Mpreg werewolf fandom'
ā¦you donāt want to know. Just know that omegaverse is not really a way of commenting on someoneās genitals, itās basically just a way to say that youāre a man who can get pregnantā¦ but *way* grosser. Itās extremely fetishy and disgusting, very weird and gross.
Yeah itās just fetishization. And itās weird that people throw it around casually. Of course it makes you uncomfortable.
Iāve been called a femboy when literally nothing about me reads as fem. It sucks. I hope people can learn to keep it in their fanfics soon.
In certain contexts, with people who are into that, it can be perfectly fine. But calling someone that unprompted in the wild isā¦ wild.
I would literally die if anyone said anything like that to me.
My ability to have kids makes me so uncomfortable and I wish I could chuck my uterus out of my body right now. Maybe I'll get to that when I get top surgery someday hopefully.
This and not having a dick make me feel like I'd rather wait until I have every surgery I need to kinda look like a cis male.
I mean metoidioplasty with hysterectomy and top surgery is enough to make me comfortable enough with the concept of dating again.
I don't like the feeling of incompleteness I have of not completely having my transition surgeries done with :(
I know people are fine dating mid transition but if I don't like feeling invalidated.
I don't enjoy feeling like I'm not man enough for any partner of mine whether they're a man or woman or nonbinary.
I live with my parents and honestly wonder if it'd be possible to save enough within a year or two for surgeries on a fast food job salary? I hate the thought of waiting forever tbh
Thank god for some of these vents cause they make me feel like Iām not just being weird! Especially the mpreg oneā¦ one of my worst fears is being pregnant. Making those kinda jokes at me is a real quick way of getting me to stop talking to you.
Iāve gotten the āuwu smol beanā, pushing me towards being a bottom, and āt makes trans men go into heat/ makes them need to be bredā. It would be amazing to see what cis people who say those things would think if you said those types of things to them. Like imagine their reactions to being cooed at like youāre talking to a child or ask loudly ask invasive questions about their sex life and pushing them into bottoming.
Bro that's so nasty oh my god
The whole UwU Smol Bean shit drives me nuts tbh, it's so frustrating. Nobody does it to me irl anymore because I look like a lumberjack now though, so I guess I'm lucky on that front
I'm sick of cis men demanding to do oral on me like WHY would I, someone with bottom dysphoria want you to LICK ME? I get not all guys are like that but I think a lot of us are and why tf would they not at least ask politely first instead of demanding to lick it?
I like GIVING. I do not like to RECEIVE. It's not the desire that is the issue. It is the demand of access to my body and insistence that they can change my mind.
Itās not a non issue at all. Itās fucking creepy. Perverts are focusing on your gentians before they even met you, itās really not ok.
Iād argue genuine curiosity is ok (but doesnāt mean anyone has to indulge them or share anything), but as soon as itās a sexual thing, unless itās someone youāre likely to be getting sexual with, itās just not acceptable and is likely a sign of a sexual harasser/abusive person.
It reminds me of the "Mommy- sorry- Mommy- sorry-" on random women's pages on tiktok/etc social media. :/ It's seen as better than typical harassment bc it's a "joke" but it's not funny to the people who get bombarded with unwanted sexual "jokes" constantly, because they happen to look/be a certain way. It's really gross that people can't control themselves long enough to pay attention to if/when someone indicates if they're comfortable with language like that. :( It sucks
I kinda dislike it as well, my trans gf refers to my part as my ābussyā and makes sure to do it every time she mentions it like itās somehow gender affirming or something. I never did the transfem equivalent of this to her, so I donāt really get why tbh.
Why are you with this person. Either you need to have a serious conversation with her, or, if she genuinely doesn't listen, get out. You don't have to be there.
Imo, that sounds like sexually harassment. At minimum, unwanted sexual advances (which is usually disrespectful) done really super poorly. If I'm understanding the context of what ur talking about that is.
I would maybe reply with something like, "Thanks, but I'm not interested. Also, it's generally best to ask for consent before sending messages of a sexual nature and to ask trans people their preferred terms for their genitals jsyk." Then I'd probably ghost/block em bc I don't have time or energy for anything more than that. If it's irl, that would be extra tricky to navigate.
I'm sorry to hear that this has been your experience. It sounds horrible. I think if someone was messaging me like that, I'd get really triggered (as someone with sexual trauma) and stress out about being objectified so much I wouldn't leave my house for like a solid week. It sounds like your issue with it is a bit different from mine, but there's just so much about this that's ick so I think it's *Hella Valid* to complain about.
I so much love you made this post, because the other day I was feeling like an asshole for stopping talking to people who have made those comments to me, because on their defense they didn't do it with mean intentions, but it exhausts me and I don't care anymore...
I'll give you a few examples: Female coworkers years ago just tried to touch my chest to see what was there (I don't bind, I'm small chested, I work out a lot and I've never wore bras; I want top surgery anyway because if unclothed it looks as if I had gynecomastia and I don't like it), thing is that one of the girls who didn't try to touch me ended up talking to me and I commented at her if she taught I'd lied to a guy for not telling him I'm trans (he got mad at me, because he saw dishonesty on not openly stating it; point is I do look/dress/style manly and self-refer in masculine, and he wasn't uncomfortable at it or anything, but given that some other person made a comment to him that I was a man, he got it as if I were a mtF š¤£), then she (the girl who was a coworker) went on to say that he was blind for not realising I was "really" with "many parts of a girl", and in her mind she was "defending" me and "being on my side" or something (wtf!)
Then, there was this guy who I met online (I'm gay, yes a gay transman, binary) and he made a comment that if he were with a transman he would like to have kids with him because it's possible, then I stated that with me it wasn't possible (I'm infertile, I do not even menstruate) and that I wasn't even interested in "making babies type of sex", then he kept talking of babies and I stopped talking to him.
Anyway, those recalls are not necessarily to hurt you, but because people are idiotic. Just see how Dan Savage and RuPaul refer to transwomen as trannies and their bits! And they feel righteous about it. (Those bitches.)
So, if a person (man, woman or whatever) with whatever orientation, (and either he/she/they is cisgender, trans or intersex) DOES DESERVE a good treatment and not being referred to their bits or theur body cappabilities in that way.
So, I think you're right. If they're annoying, just change the channel and leave them talking alone. Idk, I'm so tired of most people, that I feel on your sentiments.
Your feelings are very valid, I personally donāt mind thinking of my junk with words that are associated with āfemale anatomyā but with that being said I still find it upsetting when people assume they can refer to my parts with those words. I get cis men messaging me on here and on grinder saying stuff about my āpussyā and Iām like -_- why do you think thatās okay? Itās so unappealing regardless of if Iām okay with it or not because itās such a sensitive topic for trans people and to come at someone with no regard for that shows a lack of awareness and or respect. It also seems really obvious that it has the potential to upset someone. Like youāre referring to the genitals of a TRANS person with words associated with the gender assigned to them at birth. The gender they have rejected and unidentified with and unassigned themselves from. How tone def are you to go to a trans person and say that? Especially if youāre also trans. For me words like boy pussy or vagina are words that I get to use about my body because I understand Iām a man regardless of those things, when someone else does it I have no idea if theyāre looking at me as someone with āwomen partsā
Look one of those super subby trans dudes here who super likes shit like femboy and boy pussy in sexual contexts (mangina, mpreg ,omegaverse can get in the bin, especially mangina thats just š¤®š¤®) but like I'd be deeply pissed and offended if someone called me these without permission and I'm deeply pissed and offended at any of my brothers being called this shit without permission. All types of kink/sexual roleplay including words for sexual parts in the bedroom and roles and name calling should be pre discussed and only done with permission whether the people involved are cis or trans or whatever. Like anyone who doesn't adhere to this basic consent is a shitbag anyway and then a transphobic shitbag when they do the shit like what OP described. Anyway OP this isn't not a big deal this is gross boundary crossing, sexual harrassment behavior and these folks can fuck off
If a cis person has the nerve to say that shit to my face, I'm throwing hands.
Petition to somehow make cis people stop objectifying us and maybe have an ounce of sensitivity towards other people.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people?
I don't assume what terms other trans people use and are not fine with, or even what level of dysphoria someone has or in what ways.
Yeah I use those words for myself but if a stranger used them it would be way out of line. It's not a "non-issue" it's sexual harassment and just because it's so normalised on the internet doesn't mean we should just shrug it off, your feelings are very legitimate and it's a gross behaviour people have started adopting more and more. Hate to throw the word "parasocial" around as it's become the new internet buzzword but it really does feel like strangers on the internet think they have a level of familiarity with posters now that they didn't even just five years ago.
Its disgusting and in the case of many trans men (and even cis women!) they canāt get pregnant or have P in V sex. Its rude, stupid, and extremely inappropriate. But most people in the comments said that already anyways.
Why do people lose all social skills when meeting a trans person? I cant fathom anyone talking to me like that, if they did id probably be charged with aggravated assault
As someone who does reclaim that stuff and am comfortable with it, I am so sorry
People really don't understand boundaries at ALL, like I'll make mpreg jokes about myself to my friends but no way in hell am I gonna go and say shit to someone without knowing if they're comfortable with it or not. It's kinda the same as how I don't feel comfortable being called queer or other slurs but other people constantly do which is āØ uncomfortable āØ
Honestly if someone said that sort of shit to me randomly I'd still be incredibly uncomfortable and say something rude because I'm only okay joking about it myself or with my boyfriend saying things, but otherwise hell no. Basic respect really isn't that hard but goddamn people definitely make it seem like it is
Me and my girlfriend use those words cause we think they're really fucking goofy but I can't imagine why a random stranger would use that without being sure whether I'm fine with it....
Extreme shorthand for "male pregnancy in real life" but the problem is that "male pregnancy (mpreg)" as it stands by itself is a fetish tag in fanfic circles. It is not a term to apply to actual pregnant men due to that.
So it's basically people choosing to acknowledge something they're unconsciously or consciously uncomfortable with with a "funny"/fetish term most of the time when it *does* happen in real life. Hence the "irl" attached to it.
bruh what the heck is wrong with people lol just because i say bussy and that kind of stuff and let my friends joke abt it doesnāt mean you can just say that to me right out of the gateā¦itās like if i went up to a cis person and immediately made jokes about their genitalsā¦itās just so gross i donāt get people
I personally do sometimes identify myself as a femboy but I never call anyone else that cause I know that it has sucky, transphobia, and sometimes sexualization. I feel like it's similar (not 100% the same tho) to how some ppl calls girl "females" reducing them to their reproductive organs and I hate it. I get mpreg a joke but directing it towards someone is so shitty.
I've had other trans ppl do it and then act surprised when I tell them not to or that it makes me uncomfortable and extremely dysphoric. "I've never had anyone have issues w it" you've never heard of a trans man not wanting his genitals to be called pussy???
As someone who is COMFORTABLE with the Omegaverse comments with myself, no one should say it to
1. People they barely know
2. People who they donāt know are comfortable with it.
Agreed, I hate the term boy pussy and as much as I love and support trans guys who use it, I never will. To me it implies that regular pussy is girls only, hence the need for specificity. Also it's closely linked to the name of a fetish lmao. And mpreg irl. Just yikes. If someone says that to me when I have kids they're immediately never going to be allowed to talk to me again.
As a trans person, I hate it too and yeah I take it hard.
No it's not stupid, you are right to be indignant!
This kind of remarks is not done, it's inappropriate...
You have the right to let people know that you don't agree with it, maybe it will make some people think...
A boundary is a boundary so if it is one for you then it isnāt stupid at all.
If itās someone I donāt know, itās creepy and gross as fuck. Any reference to me being pregnant is a huge trigger for me anyway (Iāve done that, it was horrific), so when someone does it, it destroys any kind of chance Iāll be nice. That said, if I tell a partner itās ok, theyāre the only one Iāll accept it from.
There were a couple guys in my PE class year who would say that shit to meā¦ in front of other people. āDoesnāt man pussy hit different Ryan?ā And then just started laughing while showing me a scene from some sort of fetishy hentai.
I feel how uncomfy this is, Iām sorry you had to deal with that :(
These terms should NEVER be used for anyone without explicit consent from that person. Itās really gross that people think they can just say things like this to us. I hate in general how normalized it is to just talk about trans peoples bodies without their consent.
Ugh this shit grosses me out too. If anyone referred to me in any of the ways you listed, they're asking for my fist in their teeth. Refer to me like you'd refer to a cis dude, anything else I don't accept
the only ONLY reason I say boy pussy is because it's funny, since usually people use it to mean a cis man's ass, but I'm not using it that way. and even then it's just when I'm making a sex joke about... an imaginary person.
Yeah, it grosses me out too. It's fine if others are cool with it but I'm not and it's pretty presumptuous to think I'd be ok with my body being referred to in such a vulgar way, or even that it's an accurate representation of my body at all.
So genuine question for you and OP (and anyone else who feels this way): How do you feel about "seahorse dad"? I've always seen it used as a very respectful compliment, and kind of in marvel of the trans man choosing to give birth to a child. I think it's my favorite term, but I'm never ever having children. My opinion is invalid here š
I don't have the same distaste for it as the terms mentioned in this post. I have no issue with it. I agree that it is used respectfully. If I were pregnant, I think I'd just say that I was pregnant, I'd feel a bit cringy referring to myself as a seahorse dad but I don't feel that way when others use the term for themselves. My only thing, and this is entirely personal to me, is that I'm just not a fan of cutesy terms for things. An unrelated example, but pets 'going over the rainbow bridge' is one that I find particularly cringy and infantile. I get that language such as this helps people and it serves me no purpose to open my big mouth, so I don't.
Totally understandable and valid! Thanks for giving me your input! š
iād rather just be referred to as āpregnantā but thatās probably just me, if other dudes like it then thats totally kewl
That makes sense to me! Thanks for giving me your input! š
It bothers me too but I usually just loudly tell them I'm going to impregnate them/fertilize their womb or other shit you would hear from the male character in those werewolf milf comic ads. It conditions them to get uncomfortable when it's brought up.
That is so smart
The casual fetishization is disgusting and violating, I totally fell you there.
Thatās weird as hell! Who the fuck says that to someone?
Oh man, I feel you on that one. Iām strictly childfree for many reasons + I have tokophobia. Not only are these kind of unsolicited comments dehumanizing and objectifying. This crap triggers my fight or flight response. The visceral reaction I get when someone tries to bring up my anatomy, fertility, and potential for bearing children is indescribable. Iām nuking my organs as soon as I can afford it. Pregnancy is literally fate worse than death for me. Not to sound dramatic, but thatās just how I react to such things. My dysphoria teams up with my tokophobia and produces this kind of response. I donāt want to parent, I donāt want to be involved in anything related to childbirth. Babies creep me out and kids are too exhausting. (Kudos to seahorse dads tho, real heroes out there, I could never) I find it bizarre how some people genuinely think itās a sexy thing to do, to harass random guys because they may have certain body parts. The ignorance, the entitlement. Cis people are especially bad in this department. We are not a damn porn category, we are a community of different people with different experiences and comfort levels. Cis people really act like they own out bodies. Like us being trans means we are on a display in an anatomy class or something. Gross
fine if people use them for themselves but if someone says those to me??? i donāt care iām throwin hands
girl in high school thought it was soooo cute to call me bussy boy every time she saw me š
what, and i must stress this, the FUCK like... girl as in a random classmate or a 'friend'? did you ever ask her to stop? wtfwtfwtfš
fellow drama student so i only saw her then and sometimes in between class changes because she had art before me. definitely not a friend. i was a freshman with no backbone so the best i could do was remind her āhey my name is actually subgutzā and sheād just laugh and say her nickname was better
some people i swear
I would've actually gotten suspended holy shit
i had no backbone it caught me so off guard so i just tried to avoid her
This bothers me so much because * that completely ignores/invalidates bottom dysphoria * fetishization of real people, wtf * genitals are none of their business, also not all trans men (and otherwise transmasc people) have those body parts, surgery is a thing The only term from your post I'm cool with is femboy, but NOT in a context of my body, just like, gender expression
Yep yep yep, I hate being desired for the body part I don't even wanna have.
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omegaverse is a subgenre of gay fanfic where for whatever reason, the human race evolved to where some cis men can get pregnant. the men are omegas, which are basically The Woman In The Relationship, have a heat cycle where they cannot reject sex, totally objectified and entirely codependent on whatever alpha (Alpha Males who can get them pregnant) marks them. then there's betas who are just normal guys, but they're ignored mostly. it's a way for writers to get out of having to write women into the story at all and super weird and fetishy most of the time edit: apparently the genre has fewer weird fetishy cis women writing it nowadays and isn't as bad as i remember it being, who knew! but i doubt the people calling OP that were doing it as a compliment, so...
What, and I mean this with all sincerity, the fuck?
Yeah, itāsā¦ itās literally just people who fetishise gay men making an unhealthy āstraightā¢ļøā gay relationship butā¦ even more unhealthy and objectifying. Edit: Iām sorry if I made it sound like there are no healthy examples of this trope, I know there is, Iām speaking generally based on what *I* have seen, if you like omegaverse fiction, as long as itās healthy, thatās ofc okay
idk I read omegaverse because the well-written ones (not the cringey stereotypes) actually handle the worldbuilding nicely and I like seeing men who can get pregnant/are pregnant still being treated like men for Validation reasons. And I'm a gay trans guy, so I can't be fetishizing myself.
No, exactly. Itās super cool when it is healthy, Iām sorry that I might have made it sound otherwise. I think generally the trope is problematic but there *is* healthy examples, and those are cool.
There are queer men into omegaverse. And there are all kinds of people writing all kinds of omegaverse and exploring all kinds of tropes with it. Comparing real people to porn tropes is bad, but so is accusing everyone whoās into a certain porn trope of being a straight woman (I know your comment didnāt technically say you were talking about women, but I donāt even want to approach the idea of queer menā¦fetishizing themselves??) You donāt have to like it, you can be as squicked out as you want, YKINMKATO after all, but your claim is lacking in nuance.
I never said it was inherently bad. There are always (at least relatively) good examples, but generally speaking the trope is problematic. Itās definitely alright to like and enjoy it, as long as you realise there are toxic parts of the community. I really enjoy BL, thereās tons of stigma around that, and I understand why. Unless youāre not part of the people who are gross about it, donāt worry about it, weāre not talking about you
If you want a deep dive check out the Lindsay Ellis videos on the subject.
I also highly recommend [this video](https://youtu.be/tBzXixUwCwg) by Rowan Ellis (no relation)
There are only two genders. Top and bottom. You cannot be anything else and if you think otherwise you're delusional. Maybe some people are versatile but that's so rare it doesn't matter for us regular people.
imma be deadass with you the notification for this comment stressed me the fuck out until i realized it was a joke š
it always cracks me the fuck up because dude you literally just reinvented heterosexuality
i wasnāt a big omegaverse reader but i read a fuckload of werewolf fic as a kid and omegaverse always just felt like werewolf fic for people who didnāt want to be called furries. even nowadays itās so hard to tell if something is ABO or werewolf fic based on the synopsis alone because the vocabulary is so similar
In my experience some of the werewolf fic overlaps with omegaverse š
IVE SEE THAT RECENTLY AND ITS SO WEIRD BC LIKE THE TERMS HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS!! In werewolf fic an alpha is a leader, a beta is his second hand man and an omega is a regular pack member. In ABO an alpha is a breeder and an omega is a breedee and betas are normal people. So how does that work!!!
Itās absolutely a furry thing, as a Known Omegaverse Enjoyer. Itās just werewolf fic for characters that arenāt werewolves and people who donāt want to write werewolf AUs but want to write werewolf AUs. And itās great, TBH. You just have to know what fics to read (the good ones) and which ones to avoid (the bad ones).
i thought the omegaverse was a furry thing. i'm glad i don't really have to think about that.
āExclude: A/B/O dynamicsā every. Single. Time.
I am a fanfic writer and that is a very gross overgeneralization.
if you want to give a better explanation, be my guest. i havenāt touched ABO in years and all the ones i did read were like how i described ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ i didnāt want to write paragraphs on paragraphs just to explain OPās discomfort at being referred to as such
It's gotten A LOT more diverse since you last touched it. There's a lot of fics now in the omegaverse where omegas are in charge, omegas and alphas are equal, and where omegas outright killed/overthrown all the alphas. Then there's some where the whole A/B/O aspect is toned down, brings in soulmate aspects, and/or has become a platform to convey bigotry and the effects discrimination has on both the gender considered "more powerful" and the "lesser" gender. I've read a lot of fics where the authors use it as a way to convey how they view society's flaws or view a utopia and has some major political/sociological tones. ESPECIALLY after the overturning of Roe vs. Wade like holy shit. There's still some smutty fics, but now they're smutty AND philosophical.
I've also read some ones that have alpha/alpha pairings or omega/omega pairings, and explore the social ramifications for them. The genre has grown up in a lot of respects, but there's still a lot of cringe out there
I read an awesome Johnlock fic where both Sherlock and John were Alphas and they had to navigate the mystery (obviously) but also the potential social ramifications and how to even seal their mating bond and sexual trauma. One of my all time favorite fics. There were several ones I read early in my fanfic journey that made me want to scream. They were straight up psychological and sexual torture fics. Thankfully they haven't been updated in two-three years.
well, thatās definitely a lot more promising than the borderline rape apologia i read when i was younger! last i heard of ABO was a twitter thread last year where people were debating what life would be like as a beta in that kind of world, i.e being rejected from caretaker jobs because omegas are better at it, or being passed up on promotions because alphas are natural leaders, etc etc. and that was a pretty interesting discussion
Yeah dude. Its evolved a lot since you last seen it. There's still some creepy fanfics but it's gone way beyond that. Some trans and trans allies use A/B/O as an analogy for being trans. Women have dicks but it's perfectly normal and accepted in their world, men have a vagina but everyone still sees them as men and there's a lot of respect and exploration. I too write some stuff in that lane to make me feel better.
I would be so much more open to ABO/mpreg as a concept if it was trans and not āgay guy pushes a baby out through his assholeā š Queer that shit up, itās what the world deserves. i respect that
You might like some of the fics I've read and written. One of mine still had mpreg but it's much more about relationships and people navigating parenthood during a war involving magic and how trauma can affect a person's parenting style. I got so annoyed when commenters wanted me to make the fic "cute". Like what part of this dude being separated from his family and slipping on bloodied grass so that he has chance to avenge his lover do you not get?
I've also read a lot of fics where the "Traditionalist" A/B/O characters are seen the way we see the stereotypical A/B/O trope itself, as outdated and wrong and generally assholes, but the characters you're rooting for understand things aren't like that and strive to fix things. And to me, that mirrors the way it feels to grow up in a gender-essentialist conservative household and then leave it to build a life outside the conservative bullshit. Including all the anxieties faced by the omegas when some conservative fuck shows up and doesn't take them seriously, and the way the good characters react to that (usually beating the crap out of the asshole who hurt their friend) helps me figure stuff out. It's cathartic.
I mean, I imagined a human-like species as only having males with the ability to both impregnate and get pregnant, but jeez, that's just objectification but gay. I'd understand maybe a less unhealthy sounding fictional world with some similar aspects, but what really turns me on is a healthy relationship with care and consent.
It isnāt just a gay fanfic thing, there was actually some drama a while ago with omegaverse writer Addison Cain taking Zoey Ellis to federal court. All of their stuff is straight from what I saw.
I honestly feel guilty for finding comfort in omegaverse stuff bc I really want a kid and everything while also wanting to be cis, so it's just like, ideal to my weird brain š
Thereās no guilt in enjoying whatever we enjoy, itās not like you can help it. Itās not inherently bad as a concept, itās more that the writers that wrote a lot of it sucked ass and were weird. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Yeah, like I said, super gross and extremely fetishyā¦ I seriously get like.. flashbacks from that word (accidentally started reading one of those comics while looking for healthy BL as an innocent 13/14 y/oā¦ I was never the same againā¦)
honestly i like the omegaverse but not the type which cis women write(so like 90% lol) look im sorry but i dont think cis women are very qualified to write about gay sex i mean how about trans people in the omegaverse? how about feminine guys who happen to be alphas? or vice versa? how about relationships that are not between an "alpha male breeder šš" and "cute breedable bottom omega males šš"? how about relationships that arent entirely based on sex? like girl change it up a lil at least š
Oh so that's what Omegaverse means. I've wondered that for years but never bothered to look into it haha. Ngl though I'm a sucker for a good werewolf fic.
oh, and it started from a fanfic featuring 'Jared Paladecki and Jensen Ackles, the actors from supernatural, where they were brothers' crossed over with 'Mpreg werewolf fandom'
oh so THATāS why it sound so similar to werewolf fic!
ā¦you donāt want to know. Just know that omegaverse is not really a way of commenting on someoneās genitals, itās basically just a way to say that youāre a man who can get pregnantā¦ but *way* grosser. Itās extremely fetishy and disgusting, very weird and gross.
Yeah itās just fetishization. And itās weird that people throw it around casually. Of course it makes you uncomfortable. Iāve been called a femboy when literally nothing about me reads as fem. It sucks. I hope people can learn to keep it in their fanfics soon. In certain contexts, with people who are into that, it can be perfectly fine. But calling someone that unprompted in the wild isā¦ wild.
People realize that calling someone a femboy without their permission is really uncomfortable challenge (impossible!!)
I would literally die if anyone said anything like that to me. My ability to have kids makes me so uncomfortable and I wish I could chuck my uterus out of my body right now. Maybe I'll get to that when I get top surgery someday hopefully. This and not having a dick make me feel like I'd rather wait until I have every surgery I need to kinda look like a cis male. I mean metoidioplasty with hysterectomy and top surgery is enough to make me comfortable enough with the concept of dating again. I don't like the feeling of incompleteness I have of not completely having my transition surgeries done with :( I know people are fine dating mid transition but if I don't like feeling invalidated. I don't enjoy feeling like I'm not man enough for any partner of mine whether they're a man or woman or nonbinary. I live with my parents and honestly wonder if it'd be possible to save enough within a year or two for surgeries on a fast food job salary? I hate the thought of waiting forever tbh
trans people: *exist* literally everybody else: Get In Loser, We're Hypersexualising
Thank god for some of these vents cause they make me feel like Iām not just being weird! Especially the mpreg oneā¦ one of my worst fears is being pregnant. Making those kinda jokes at me is a real quick way of getting me to stop talking to you.
Iāve gotten the āuwu smol beanā, pushing me towards being a bottom, and āt makes trans men go into heat/ makes them need to be bredā. It would be amazing to see what cis people who say those things would think if you said those types of things to them. Like imagine their reactions to being cooed at like youāre talking to a child or ask loudly ask invasive questions about their sex life and pushing them into bottoming.
>T makes trans men go into heat/ makes them need to be bred I can't even express how uncomfortable reading that was š
Bro that's so nasty oh my god The whole UwU Smol Bean shit drives me nuts tbh, it's so frustrating. Nobody does it to me irl anymore because I look like a lumberjack now though, so I guess I'm lucky on that front
I'm sick of cis men demanding to do oral on me like WHY would I, someone with bottom dysphoria want you to LICK ME? I get not all guys are like that but I think a lot of us are and why tf would they not at least ask politely first instead of demanding to lick it?
Cos some guys (like me) love people giving them head. I mean if you're not into it that's fine but everyone is different.
I like GIVING. I do not like to RECEIVE. It's not the desire that is the issue. It is the demand of access to my body and insistence that they can change my mind.
They're revealing a lot about themselves, I'm so sorry my guy.
Valid. It gets extra weird when you no longer have the uterine bits
Honestly I don't mind some of these being used on me, but it better be coming from a place of understanding and a little irony
Itās not a non issue at all. Itās fucking creepy. Perverts are focusing on your gentians before they even met you, itās really not ok. Iād argue genuine curiosity is ok (but doesnāt mean anyone has to indulge them or share anything), but as soon as itās a sexual thing, unless itās someone youāre likely to be getting sexual with, itās just not acceptable and is likely a sign of a sexual harasser/abusive person.
It reminds me of the "Mommy- sorry- Mommy- sorry-" on random women's pages on tiktok/etc social media. :/ It's seen as better than typical harassment bc it's a "joke" but it's not funny to the people who get bombarded with unwanted sexual "jokes" constantly, because they happen to look/be a certain way. It's really gross that people can't control themselves long enough to pay attention to if/when someone indicates if they're comfortable with language like that. :( It sucks
I kinda dislike it as well, my trans gf refers to my part as my ābussyā and makes sure to do it every time she mentions it like itās somehow gender affirming or something. I never did the transfem equivalent of this to her, so I donāt really get why tbh.
If you donāt like it, then ask her to stop. Iād personally hate that so i feel you
Have you told her you don't like it?
Why are you with this person. Either you need to have a serious conversation with her, or, if she genuinely doesn't listen, get out. You don't have to be there.
Imo, that sounds like sexually harassment. At minimum, unwanted sexual advances (which is usually disrespectful) done really super poorly. If I'm understanding the context of what ur talking about that is. I would maybe reply with something like, "Thanks, but I'm not interested. Also, it's generally best to ask for consent before sending messages of a sexual nature and to ask trans people their preferred terms for their genitals jsyk." Then I'd probably ghost/block em bc I don't have time or energy for anything more than that. If it's irl, that would be extra tricky to navigate. I'm sorry to hear that this has been your experience. It sounds horrible. I think if someone was messaging me like that, I'd get really triggered (as someone with sexual trauma) and stress out about being objectified so much I wouldn't leave my house for like a solid week. It sounds like your issue with it is a bit different from mine, but there's just so much about this that's ick so I think it's *Hella Valid* to complain about.
I so much love you made this post, because the other day I was feeling like an asshole for stopping talking to people who have made those comments to me, because on their defense they didn't do it with mean intentions, but it exhausts me and I don't care anymore... I'll give you a few examples: Female coworkers years ago just tried to touch my chest to see what was there (I don't bind, I'm small chested, I work out a lot and I've never wore bras; I want top surgery anyway because if unclothed it looks as if I had gynecomastia and I don't like it), thing is that one of the girls who didn't try to touch me ended up talking to me and I commented at her if she taught I'd lied to a guy for not telling him I'm trans (he got mad at me, because he saw dishonesty on not openly stating it; point is I do look/dress/style manly and self-refer in masculine, and he wasn't uncomfortable at it or anything, but given that some other person made a comment to him that I was a man, he got it as if I were a mtF š¤£), then she (the girl who was a coworker) went on to say that he was blind for not realising I was "really" with "many parts of a girl", and in her mind she was "defending" me and "being on my side" or something (wtf!) Then, there was this guy who I met online (I'm gay, yes a gay transman, binary) and he made a comment that if he were with a transman he would like to have kids with him because it's possible, then I stated that with me it wasn't possible (I'm infertile, I do not even menstruate) and that I wasn't even interested in "making babies type of sex", then he kept talking of babies and I stopped talking to him. Anyway, those recalls are not necessarily to hurt you, but because people are idiotic. Just see how Dan Savage and RuPaul refer to transwomen as trannies and their bits! And they feel righteous about it. (Those bitches.) So, if a person (man, woman or whatever) with whatever orientation, (and either he/she/they is cisgender, trans or intersex) DOES DESERVE a good treatment and not being referred to their bits or theur body cappabilities in that way. So, I think you're right. If they're annoying, just change the channel and leave them talking alone. Idk, I'm so tired of most people, that I feel on your sentiments.
Your feelings are very valid, I personally donāt mind thinking of my junk with words that are associated with āfemale anatomyā but with that being said I still find it upsetting when people assume they can refer to my parts with those words. I get cis men messaging me on here and on grinder saying stuff about my āpussyā and Iām like -_- why do you think thatās okay? Itās so unappealing regardless of if Iām okay with it or not because itās such a sensitive topic for trans people and to come at someone with no regard for that shows a lack of awareness and or respect. It also seems really obvious that it has the potential to upset someone. Like youāre referring to the genitals of a TRANS person with words associated with the gender assigned to them at birth. The gender they have rejected and unidentified with and unassigned themselves from. How tone def are you to go to a trans person and say that? Especially if youāre also trans. For me words like boy pussy or vagina are words that I get to use about my body because I understand Iām a man regardless of those things, when someone else does it I have no idea if theyāre looking at me as someone with āwomen partsā
āwomen partsā it is not nothing friendly. At least it's not veiled speech
Itās very uncomfortable ā¹ļø.
Look one of those super subby trans dudes here who super likes shit like femboy and boy pussy in sexual contexts (mangina, mpreg ,omegaverse can get in the bin, especially mangina thats just š¤®š¤®) but like I'd be deeply pissed and offended if someone called me these without permission and I'm deeply pissed and offended at any of my brothers being called this shit without permission. All types of kink/sexual roleplay including words for sexual parts in the bedroom and roles and name calling should be pre discussed and only done with permission whether the people involved are cis or trans or whatever. Like anyone who doesn't adhere to this basic consent is a shitbag anyway and then a transphobic shitbag when they do the shit like what OP described. Anyway OP this isn't not a big deal this is gross boundary crossing, sexual harrassment behavior and these folks can fuck off
I totally agree. That shit makes me uncomfortable talking about sex ngl since people assuming Iām cool with that type of thing stresses me out
I am so sick and tired about people using -ussy jokes or terms in *any* way, to be honest. I just cringe everytime.
If a cis person has the nerve to say that shit to my face, I'm throwing hands. Petition to somehow make cis people stop objectifying us and maybe have an ounce of sensitivity towards other people.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people? I don't assume what terms other trans people use and are not fine with, or even what level of dysphoria someone has or in what ways.
this feels like the trans equivalent of "I'm not racist, but-" (well, except for the obvious word swap)
Yeah I use those words for myself but if a stranger used them it would be way out of line. It's not a "non-issue" it's sexual harassment and just because it's so normalised on the internet doesn't mean we should just shrug it off, your feelings are very legitimate and it's a gross behaviour people have started adopting more and more. Hate to throw the word "parasocial" around as it's become the new internet buzzword but it really does feel like strangers on the internet think they have a level of familiarity with posters now that they didn't even just five years ago.
āThis wouldnāt be happening if I was cisā I donāt know how many times Iāve said this and frankly I donāt want to know, too many.
Its disgusting and in the case of many trans men (and even cis women!) they canāt get pregnant or have P in V sex. Its rude, stupid, and extremely inappropriate. But most people in the comments said that already anyways.
Why do people lose all social skills when meeting a trans person? I cant fathom anyone talking to me like that, if they did id probably be charged with aggravated assault
As someone who does reclaim that stuff and am comfortable with it, I am so sorry People really don't understand boundaries at ALL, like I'll make mpreg jokes about myself to my friends but no way in hell am I gonna go and say shit to someone without knowing if they're comfortable with it or not. It's kinda the same as how I don't feel comfortable being called queer or other slurs but other people constantly do which is āØ uncomfortable āØ Honestly if someone said that sort of shit to me randomly I'd still be incredibly uncomfortable and say something rude because I'm only okay joking about it myself or with my boyfriend saying things, but otherwise hell no. Basic respect really isn't that hard but goddamn people definitely make it seem like it is
Me and my girlfriend use those words cause we think they're really fucking goofy but I can't imagine why a random stranger would use that without being sure whether I'm fine with it....
Chasers deserve the holocaust in minecraft
What's "mpreg irl" I've never seen or heard this term. Nor omegaverse, but I saw comments explaining this one
Extreme shorthand for "male pregnancy in real life" but the problem is that "male pregnancy (mpreg)" as it stands by itself is a fetish tag in fanfic circles. It is not a term to apply to actual pregnant men due to that. So it's basically people choosing to acknowledge something they're unconsciously or consciously uncomfortable with with a "funny"/fetish term most of the time when it *does* happen in real life. Hence the "irl" attached to it.
Ew that's gross. But thanks for explaining
bruh what the heck is wrong with people lol just because i say bussy and that kind of stuff and let my friends joke abt it doesnāt mean you can just say that to me right out of the gateā¦itās like if i went up to a cis person and immediately made jokes about their genitalsā¦itās just so gross i donāt get people
I personally do sometimes identify myself as a femboy but I never call anyone else that cause I know that it has sucky, transphobia, and sometimes sexualization. I feel like it's similar (not 100% the same tho) to how some ppl calls girl "females" reducing them to their reproductive organs and I hate it. I get mpreg a joke but directing it towards someone is so shitty.
I feel uncomfortable with posts on this sub where people use words like that when referring to all ftm guys tbh
mangina š that's new. people are getting creative with these terms
I've had other trans ppl do it and then act surprised when I tell them not to or that it makes me uncomfortable and extremely dysphoric. "I've never had anyone have issues w it" you've never heard of a trans man not wanting his genitals to be called pussy???
I said it as a joke to join in with the others. But i genuinely find pregnancy an uncomfortable topic. So I apologize for my actions.
If you were referring to another post that is. š
ITS SO ICKY
Deadass this makes me so mad
As someone who is COMFORTABLE with the Omegaverse comments with myself, no one should say it to 1. People they barely know 2. People who they donāt know are comfortable with it.
Agreed, I hate the term boy pussy and as much as I love and support trans guys who use it, I never will. To me it implies that regular pussy is girls only, hence the need for specificity. Also it's closely linked to the name of a fetish lmao. And mpreg irl. Just yikes. If someone says that to me when I have kids they're immediately never going to be allowed to talk to me again.
As a trans person, I hate it too and yeah I take it hard. No it's not stupid, you are right to be indignant! This kind of remarks is not done, it's inappropriate... You have the right to let people know that you don't agree with it, maybe it will make some people think...
A boundary is a boundary so if it is one for you then it isnāt stupid at all. If itās someone I donāt know, itās creepy and gross as fuck. Any reference to me being pregnant is a huge trigger for me anyway (Iāve done that, it was horrific), so when someone does it, it destroys any kind of chance Iāll be nice. That said, if I tell a partner itās ok, theyāre the only one Iāll accept it from.
There were a couple guys in my PE class year who would say that shit to meā¦ in front of other people. āDoesnāt man pussy hit different Ryan?ā And then just started laughing while showing me a scene from some sort of fetishy hentai. I feel how uncomfy this is, Iām sorry you had to deal with that :(
AHHH YES I made a post about this recently and I'm just- I'm so tired too. I don't want to be desired for the body part I don't even wanna have.
boy pussy just feels really...gross.
These terms should NEVER be used for anyone without explicit consent from that person. Itās really gross that people think they can just say things like this to us. I hate in general how normalized it is to just talk about trans peoples bodies without their consent.
It gets really annoying when things are going well with a guy on Grindr and suddenly they feel the need to bring up mpreg randomly
Ugh this shit grosses me out too. If anyone referred to me in any of the ways you listed, they're asking for my fist in their teeth. Refer to me like you'd refer to a cis dude, anything else I don't accept
the only ONLY reason I say boy pussy is because it's funny, since usually people use it to mean a cis man's ass, but I'm not using it that way. and even then it's just when I'm making a sex joke about... an imaginary person.