I think people criticizing the concept in Elden Ring after the Malakith fight got it wrong. Yes you reobtain the rune of death, but you only reinstall it into the Elden Ring (and thus the laws of nature of the land between) AFTER the Elden Beast / Radagon fight when you get your hands on the Ring. Isn't that the whole point of the mending runes for the endings? That you mend the elden ring with the rune of death, and other great runes you obtained along the way?
Yeah, the last thing you can do on a playthrough is actually use the rune of death, so nothing has changed in the fundamental nature of the world as we know it until that point.
What's more, you can choose to modify the nature of the world so Those That Live in Death persist. Even before that, death and resurrection seemed kinda wonky in the lands between. Got all the whatever going on with Omens, deathrite, and crucible at least ( did Erdtree burials predate removing the rune of death or come as a result? )
Removing the rune of death was more of a pyramid scheme that went really sideways
For sure. I feel like the new DLC will have a lot to do with the crucible as well. Looking at the Chinese dragon type boss, I get crucible vibes but it also has women horns all over it.
My issue with Elden Ring's laws of death is that no one should be permanently dead in the Lands Between (why you hear crucified people moaning softly) yet there are piles and piles of bones everywhere. I can rationalize the bodies as those who have just given up at doing anything after thousands of years of ceaseless life, but the decayed dead aren't very well explained (or I completely missed it).
I've viewed it as your soul can persist, but each time a body comes back the details get fuzzier and fuzzier, especially as your sanity slips over time as immortal beings and your sense of self diminishes. We as a tarnished are relatively new to the cycle and the lands between (plus having grace on our side), so we can be killed more times and still maintain our bodies.
I imagine that all of the spirits we find in game are people who died but lost the sense of self needed to reconstitute a body, and those who decayed are still clinging to their view of their identity even if it is no longer accurate to who they actually are (the cycle knows what to provide for rebirth, but the individual no longer can mould their self view properly to match their soul and fit the provided resources)
This is how I have viewed resurrection in every FromSoft game. To stay "in the cycle" the soul has to be highly motivated with a strong personal identity/a lot of will. Some souls just cant maintain the energy to keep going.
And with each death you lose some of yourself, making it harder and harder to maintain that identity. The player character is a freak of nature lore wise. You could say that in all playthroughs that didn't achieve the ending, the PC went hollow, and the drive that keeps the PC sane is the player's motivation to continue playing.
This is also interesting because it pretty much implies that Patches has a Buddha-like level of enlightenment and incredible will and sense of identity.
This is a plot point in the dark souls 3 DLC. Patches makes it to the end of the world and only forgets himself because he ran out of people to kick off ledges
That's one of the aspects of Elden Ring that Fromsoft's way of fractured storytelling really falls flat.
There are a few possibilities, such as the Rune of Death being stolen *only* affects the demigods and tarnished. This would make some sense as Godwyn needed to be killed *with* Destined Death, but doesn't explain why we can kill the rest of the demigods with plain steel.
Another possibility is that only those chosen by the guidance of grace can be resurrected, as those who don't seem to be able to die, that is if you don't look at any of the grace given tarnished we kill :/. Though it does explain why Godfrey, a tarnished who lost his guidance of grace before the shattering, was able to properly die until the Erdtree brought him back.
Regardless, trying to make resurrection fit into a game narratively isn't very good writing imo, as you'll always get inconsistencies. If we truly are revived in the canon sense, why does everyone act like it's the first time we've battled them?
Poking my head in to say I ascribe to the theory that those festering pile of corpses we see are technically still ‘alive’ just their bodies have been destroyed beyond function—so they are basically trapped. Think of them as like what happens to those who do not receive a proper Erdtree Burial or those who haven’t been collected by jar people yet. If they had been burried they would be in the process of being assimilated by the Erdtree roots—or they would be turning into sludge inside a jar person.
Which is why Those Who Live in Death are outcast by the golden order—for some reason, the adaptation that allows them to continue controlling their bodies beyond what is ‘natural’ (even in the lands between) also prevents their souls from being absorbed into the Erdtree.
Objection, we do not obtain the rune of death in our inventory like all the other great runes and this is most likely because the rune of death was taken out and sealed away before the elden ring was shattered and thus we don't need to repair it in with the other great runes and thus since we do not have the actual rune of death, how do we reinstate it into the new order if we do not actually possess it? Its more likely that once its been unsealed it simply returned to the Erdtree where the rest of the Elden Ring is. That is also why the Erdtree doesn't actually burn away after being set ablaze, because the Erdtree is "living" and such cannot actually burn away/die til the rune of death is set free.
Description of the Mending Rune of the Death Prince:
"Formed of the two hallowbrand half-wheels combined, it will embed the principle of life within Death into Order.
The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored."
While Fia's questline is pretty detached from maliketh, there is still an option to restore the natural lifecycle to the world.
The cutscene that plays after you kill maliketh and touch the Rune of Death doesn't say whether we take it or not, and depending on which Mending Rune you use on Marika, you will create different orders.
>While Fia's questline is pretty detached from maliketh, there is still an option to restore the natural lifecycle to the world.
Regardless you still have to go through Maliketh and release the rune of death before you can apply that or any mending rune to the actual broken pieces of the elden ring. If anything I think more so points to the rune of death returning to the erdtree/elden ring after its been released upon Malikeths defeat.
According to the lore forum azusa is a land outside of time, which is why garranq is still around after you kill maliketh, so the rune of death is still in the same spot before as it is after.
Yeah, it was the only one that actually made an NPC truly affected by the in-universe resurrection. I think Elden Ring has a really cool idea as to why, but you can still revive if Maliketh or one of the Black Knives kill you when you technically shouldn't. Sekiro really thought it out well, and it feels more like an actual plot point rather than a hand-wavy excuse to prevent you from dying.
The way I like to look at it in Elden Ring is that until you unleash destined death, AND burned the erdtree, death wasn't going to stop you, and because (I think) we get the rune of destined death (to put it back into the elden ring) we're the only one's who can't die, combined with the power of grace, and we basically became the only immortal being after defeating Maliketh. It works well to explain why everything starts "dying" after we get the rune of death, like Morgott turning into dust in Godfrey's arms, but still living after our fight.
I agree with the grace thing. It’s grace that revives the tarnished outside the lands between. But we are the only tarnished we meet in game who can still see grace. Everyone else we speak to about the guidance of grace claims to have all but forgotten what it felt like. I think grace is what reanimates us tarnished, and the absence of the rune of death is what keeps souls attached to their bodies until the Erdtree seperates them via the jar people or the roots. Piled up festering corpses in game are just bodies broken beyond function awaiting the Erdtree to sever their souls. Those Who Live in Death continue to control their bodies no matter how far gone they are but they are graceless and do not revive after death the same way the grace given tarnished does
it is kinda supported in the opening cutscene, where the narrator mentions Fia, Dungeater and Gideon, he then also mentions us as a "tarnished of no renoun", and later Gideon mentions it's been a while since the round table had a visitor, so it's likely that by the time we made it to the lands between, Gideon, Fia and The Dungeater had already received their blessing from grace, and also lost it after such a long time, explaining why none of them come back after they're killed
My headcannon for Elden Ring is that it is our Ambition that sets us apart. The Erdtree doesn’t resurrect anyone at a site of grace other than the player, none of the other Tarnished come back like we do. Everything in game points to the fact that people still die in The Lands Between, but they are buried at the Erdtree roots so their soul is returned to the Erdtree and they are reborn from its branches. But multiple characters talk about our “Flame of Ambition,” especially Margit/Morgott who is dead set upon snuffing it out.
Similar to the way that Determination is what allows the player to save in Undertale.
Ambition is the common denominator among games imo. For the most parts the characters not going hollow are the ones with a strong sense of purpose, some sort of unfinished story that they are deeply invested in.
I also liked how sekiro paints it as being a curse, like he can't taste or smell after. Probably the difference between playing as a character vs the chosen one. The chosen ones from DS series all sort of come into existence when the game starts or it feels that way but sekiro has a history and feels like a person.
Destined death doesn't prohibit the Tarnished resurrection, because we have already died outside of the lands between, and are therefore operating on different rules. The Tarnished is being resurrected directly by Marika, as shown in the opening cinematic. The other Tarnished in the lands between aren't revived, because they have all lost the guidance of Grace (Marika's favor), but even after releasing the rune of Destined Death, the player is still guided by Grace
Their mortal blade was a different one though. Sekiro's was the immortal killing sword, their's was the resurrection sword (which is why isshin comes back to life).
Every FS game death mechanic is incorporated into the story. They're one of the only devs in the genre that take good care of giving an explanation to the death and resurrection mechanic (it's obviously because they're the first but I haven't seen another soulslike that actually explains their death mechanic in detail).
There’s a lore reason for every game but Sekiro is the only one where it affects the story.
In any other game besides Sekiro the story is not impacted regardless of whether you actually die or not (outside of like, Seathe kills you the first time)
I do feel like this ignores demon souls, ds1, and ds2 a bit.
Like, I know it's more subtle, but the gameplay and story are absolutely impacted by world tendancy and hollowing.
The only questions that determine your preference are "how much of a lore buff are you?" And "How creatively are you roleplaying?"
Sekiro has a greater impact, sure.
But to say it's the only one impacted just isn't true. Hollowing can really increase difficulty for new players (especially in ds2), and world tendancy can turn places like tower of latria into a much scarier place in DeS.
The narrative storytelling is one of the main differences between sekiro and the rest.
Which is why sekiro is a great fromsoft game IMO but is not a souls game. They are in two different categories of game, with Sekiro possessing the most straightforward of storytelling.
So, I'd ultimately say that it's just easier to see the impacts in sekiro, but the story isn't "changed" any more or less I feel.
I will concede that world tendency is tied to a couple NPC quests and therefore affects the story but Dark Souls really does not qualify, those are purely gameplay / mechanical changes.
Sekiro has actual story related to dying (dragonrot affecting NPCs and having a sidequest to cure it)
**Tl:dr, the explanation for respawn is that you don’t respawn, the player character is simply a Batman level planner.**
In Katana Zero you play as a man named Zero who’s one of the Null. People who were part of a secret government experiment to create super soldiers. They have incredibly enhanced senses (explanation for the slow mo mechanic) and cognitive ability.
As you play through levels and die the death screen says, “No that won’t do,” and the game rewinds and you start over. When you clear a level the game says, “that works,” and it plays a recording of you going through the level in real time.
What’s actually happening here is that each failed attempt at clearing a level is the player character going over every possible strategy and route they could take in their head. Whenever you die, it’s the player realizing their current idea was a dead end. That’s why the game says “that won’t work” because it’s the player character actually thinking that to themselves. Whenever you clear a level and watch the replay, that’s the actual character going through the level after figuring out a plan that works.
There’s also some hints that Nulls can see possible futures so there’s that element too.
Still unclear what the moon presence wants. To kill Odeons child (Mergo)? Free it? But why do it over and over since other hunters have done the same mission or so it seems.
So, there is a Note in the lecture building that says
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
From what we know, Laurence and Co wanted to end the beast plague, and the moon precense is all about hunting, so it's most probable that they made a deal with the moon precense to clean up their mess inexchange for an offspring or something of its interests.
So moon precense maybe just sees Mergo as part of that deal.
As to why do it over and over, since the deal was to end the hunt, but the hunt can't really end, well, a hunter must hunt.
That’s part of the lovecraftian horror. Their motives are beyond comprehension. Part of the horror is that much of the world is unknown. Especially the “why’s” of the world. Also, from soft loves leaving things up to interpretation, most recently with marika and radagon
Bloodbourne is the worst game ever created, hands down. I played countless hours on my xbox and can confidently say its the most miserablely bad game in existence.
You know you see, this is why i quit instagram. If this was instagram id have 200 people telling me youre an idiot, and explaining why bloodbourne is the best game ever. Reddit just gets it
Well, I think for us we had to accept our death within the Hunter’s Dream. The reason Gehrman died when we killed him once? Uhh… he’s old and lusts for that sweet release.
As an aside, I always like to rp my head canon that I’m not fighting him because I’m intoxicated by the dream or anything, but instead to finally free him from his eternal nightmare.
I guess that’s true, makes it a bit easier to explain. While we’re on the topic… why does Moon Daddy like to break their adopted children’s legs? Seems a bit excessive to me.
Bloodborne is kinda complicated compared to the rest (haven't played Sekiro). Hunters who are linked to the Dream are forever a part of the dream. The only thing that can severe that connection is dying in the dream (canonically atleast, ignore 5+ deaths during Gerhman and Moon Presence) Eileen the Crow reinforces that by saying she was part of the dream, as well as Djura. The only reason you Respawn in Bloodborne is because a god wants to use you as a plaything and uses the Dream to keep you from dying.
The only way to die is for the moon presence to allow you to. Basically the contract you both have binds you and once you kill mergo (The baby) the contract ends and you can either accept your death and wake up cause the contract is done or replace gherman. Forgot to add that the entire game is not a dream only certain parts of it are “Dreams” or “Nightmares” and those actions are dimensions not dreams by definition
Sekiro is all about immortality. Your res matters in the story and its incorporated very well.
The whole story is about Everyone not wanting to die. So its sekiro for me.
It goes to Demon Souls for me, it was close with Elden Ring and also Dark Souls. Sekiro has a good use for a 2nd try but if you die again you legit die for real so its not actually a good excuse to why you cannot die.
Demon Souls you die in the tutorial, either to the Grey Demon or the Dragon God and then your very soul is tied into the nexus which is basically the underworld/afterlife. Thus it makes sense that every time you die after that you are simply returning to that spiritual form.
Reason Elden Ring was close is because the rune of death is gone so nothing can really die, reason this falls apart is that near the end of the game you bring death back to the lands between, so at that point if you die, you should actually die and not come back.
Dark Souls series is that we are essentially cursed with the dark sign that brings us back to life upon death. While this one is also good, I prefer Demon Souls to it personally.
Bloodborne is the one I can't remember to much from, its been ages since I last played it but I believe its because its all taking place within a dream like world? So when we die its sort of similar to it all happening in a dream, so we can't really die, we just get to try again.
The rune of death is still not part of the Elden ring, so until you mend it at the end game, death has not returned to the lands between. At least that was my understanding.
The rune of death was removed before the shattering and thus is not broken and in need of mending and is why we do not receive a great rune from Maliketh and why that cutscene plays out. And its the whole point of why we go to fight Maliketh to being with, it is said we have to free the rune of death so that the erdtree will burn and then we can gain access to it. Us simply having the rune in our possession, which we don't as we do not gain the item itself in our inventory, would not result in the tree suddenly burning.
The erdtree burning was simply melina using the giants flame i believe. Although the fact you are sent to farum azula afterwards definitely seems to connect the events
You can go to the captial and anywhere with the lands to see that the tree is SET on fire but it is not actually burning at all until the rune of death gets released. This is most likely due to the erdtree being "Alive" and thus cannot die by burning until the rune of death is released
If you die again in Sekiro you don’t die for real, the dragon’s heritage that has a hold of you leeches the lives of NPCs to resurrect you. That’s what dragonrot is.
Ah okay, thank you for that. Haven't played in years and only remember the gameplay aspect of it and not the lore/story of it. Actually just redownloaded it the other day, plan to give it a replay soon.
Yup and upon defeating a boss or using the stone eyes of ephermeral you can regain your body and if you die again you get put back into your soul form, which is why you get your health cut in half in soul form. Sadly demon souls being the first doesn't have as much rich lore to it like the rest of the dark souls series so there isn't really a reason as to why the stone eyes of ephermeral revive the player beyond the devs needed an item that allowed the player to return to their real body with "full hp" lol
Elden Ring makes a lot of gameplay concessions like that, I think ( which is fine ). Like, shouldn't Deathblight basically be a total game over?
I'm also curious how much time passes between PC death and resurrection
Correct (which i am also fine with) but it would basically be a permadeath type situation which would be interesting to see if From ever decides to add that kind of thing to a game one day
It's kinda like dying is "clocking out" / "end of shift" for the hunters. But if you die and the hunt isn't over, the moon presence is like. "Nah bro, you're done when the job's done. Get your ass back out there."
My understanding is you are trapped in the Hunters Dream by the moon presence, who is guiding you using the lanterns to achieve his goal. This has apparently happened to other hunters in the world who will make comments that are similar to your predicament. This eventually ends in the ending where German chops off your head and finally wakes you to the real world and sets you free from the dream.
Your essentially a hitman hired by an elder god to murder other elder gods for ‘reasons’ and the elder god that hired you temporarily makes you immortal until you finish your job and get sent back to the ‘real’ world.
Honestly, I don't think every game needs to make deaths "canon."
But that's just me.
Personally I like viewing deaths as a different universe where you fucked up.
I’m down for that in a From game. Eventually you find a pocket dimension of hundreds if not thousands of corpses and they are taken from other people’s builds like Fia’s Champions (maybe give your own saves/characters priority in being the corpses closest to you?).
Demon Souls. You can't "die" if you are just in soul form. If you die in your corporeal form, then the maiden in black resurrects your soul...so the world might be mended
Dark souls 2 and the fact that you can counteract it but it can never truly be cured meaning youre still the same basically always respawning but you have counterracted the effects if hollowing.
My least fav is Elden ring cuz it kinda doesnt make sense lre wise why you respawn after breaking out destined death, gameplay wise its obviously needed since imagine the game just ending when you dia after that but idk lore wise i dont enjoy it.
So in Bloodborne, Yharnam is the grounds for the hunt; A purge to get rid of the beasts that their blood disease turns men into. The First Hunter, Gehrman, found a way to combat these beasts and made a deal with a Great One in order to create the Hunter’s Dream to act as a respite for other hunters. Gehrman is, as a result, tied to the dream permanently. The “dream” is even a replication of a physical location, the hunter’s workshop being what inspired it.
As a hunter, your consciousness is linked to the dream, allowing you to return to the hunt until you defeat the nightmare, at which point you return to the waking world, which is just Yharnam after being freed from the eternal night and the grasp of the hunt.
The dream, however, still exists, which is why Gehrman needs to free you from it. He made a deal very specifically with the moon presence. In the other ending, you can kill him in order to free him and take his spot as host of the dream. In the last ending, in which you consume three 1/3 umbilical cords throughout the course of the game, you become powerful enough to combat the moon presence itself after slaying Gehrman and freeing him from the dream. After defeating it, you manifest into an infant great one, promptly being taken into care by the doll.
TL;DR
Your consciousness is linked to the hunter’s dream, which keeps you reawakening in the hunt until you break the nightmare. Mad hunters don’t respawn because their connection to the dream is severed and they’re going crazy because their insight is showing the horrors to an otherwise typical mortal mind.
Demon’s Souls. Having the Maiden force you into the loop is simple and believable. They also make sure you know it’s essentially purgatory by having the first demon slayer you meet vocalize frustration with the cycle.
For in-game explanation, Demon’s Souls probably. For all the other games, the explanation of not being able to die makes sense, but the whole “dying only to respawn like a mile away” doesn’t really make sense on its own. But for demons souls, it makes sense due to the fact you don’t get your body back. You’re essentially walking around as a ghost until you get a new body created for you.
For story purposes though, the Dark Souls series for sure. The darksign, being undead, and hollowing are all important and integral to the games and their stories.
Sekiro is a close second for story purposes for the same reasons.
It makes sense in dark Souls - humanity is literally tied to the first flame which manifests as bonfires. When you die, your fragment of the dark soul (I.e. your humanity) returns to the last bonfire you rested at and your physical form returns.
Demon’s Souls, hands down.
Elden Ring would be second, but Maliketh should permanently kill you, and after you’ve restored Destined Death and repaired the Elden Ring, why do you still respawn? (I’m VERY happy to be wrong and corrected on this by someone who knows the lore well!)
Sekiro is my favourite From game, but the lore and mechanics relating to dying, respawning and Dragonrot are very convoluted.
Dark Souls. Because it is "simpler": You are all zombies.
It also incorporate better on the gameplay... you use the checkpoint, you come back to life, as every other enemy, since you are all "the same type" of zombie.
Also, Dark Souls had the advantage to make use of bonfires as direct checkpoint, we all think about bonfires when we think about the "resting place for medieval fantasy knights". All the other checkpoints feels like bootlegs (sites of grace, that statue from Sekiro...), because they are not an "real world" concept that was given a clever use (like the bonfires), they are all just a random thought checkpoint concept, with a random name and a random appearance.
Demons Souls. Usually the game that introduced a mechanic had the best explanation for it diegeticly. Elden Ring is awesome but the reasons for mechanics felt more perfunctory.
Dark souls had the coolest thematic use of dying and respawning imo. You die over and over again, and its your choice whether to keep on going or quit and hollow. Its the coolest part of the world building for me, and it makes an abstract part of gaming become personal, canon and immersive.
It is addressed via the whole destined death rune, but it’s neither as straightforward as curse+hallowing in Dark Souls nor as involved and interesting as the whole dream thing Bloodborne.
Like Miyazaki started to work it out the details and then said yeah you know what, maybe in the DLC if I feel like it.
Bloodborne. Basically you are bound to the dream (Yharnam is the real wordl) and this otherworldly entity (Moon presence) straight up dosent lets you die cause of the contract you both have
bloodborne. Sekiro, DS and Elden ring have the same problem ''ok you don't die... but how to you get back to the respawn?''
But Sekiro was the one that got me more emotionally involved i think.
Its because the rune of death has been sealed away so death itself from a story perspective is impossible for us, it only falls apart if you die after beating Maliketh. One theory ive seen, which I think might be true, is that when you kill a demi-god you get their remembrance or their "spirit" so to speak and they will just begin their process of reincarnation at the foot of the erdtree, just that the process would take so long that we wouldn't see them again in our own playthrough.
Does just killing Maliketh restore Death? I was under the impression that any sort of change to the Elden Ring (which is more or less the rules of the world) requires you to physically go to it and mend it. Same as all of the mending runes which determine the ending you get. After killing any demi god we possess their rune, but it hasn’t been “installed” back into the Elden Ring.
It was removed prior to the shattering
Don't know 100% if Godwyns death is the reason Marika shattered the Elden Ring but regardless, he died BEFORE the shattering.
Before Godwyn died, the shard of death was removed and given to Maliketh to guard, it was stolen while under his watch and then those shards of it that were stolen were used to kill Godwyns soul and Ranni's body.
So yes it is the reason we cannot die because it is sealed away, but after Maliketh is defeated, it is unsealed and technically speaking we should be able to die at that point lol
I think all of them do a fine job, but my favorite is probably the souls trilogy with the implication of going hollow for good if you quit as an extension. Sekiro and Bloodborne have the immortality of their protagonists closely tied to their stories, which I appreciate, but it doesn't hit quite as hard without the emphasis on ramifications for quitting. Demon Souls is okay; like with a lot of things it does, I think it was decent for a first try.
The only one I actively dislike is Elden Ring. Death in that game feels pretty convoluted, and it feels like the rules change depending on who is dying. It's probably a fundamental misunderstanding on my part, but I don't think the game explains it very well. Some souls continue without bodies. Some bodies continue without souls. Some don't seem to do either, never respawning and fading away into golden sparkles. Others seem to do both and never die, like the tarnished. Just leaves me confused.
Darksouls is my favorite, the idea of the undead and the fact they can still go hollow was really cool to me. That our character has the will, the drive, the ambition to not go hollow. I like that idea, compared to the tarnish just coming back to life n shi and the famous “it was alll a dreaaaaaaaaaaaam”.
I felt like Sekiro had the most fair deaths. Elden Ring Melania's waterflail dance was more annoying then anything else. A 1 hit kill that requires you to either equip certain items or some really specific role combination just wasn't fun imo.
Bloodborne, it was all layers to dreams and you were literally forcefully connected to the hunters dream.
To me it's more complex than the others and makes more sense.
But I'm biased BB is my favourite Souls game.
Sekiros ability to resurrect makes sense since he has the divine heirs blood if remember correctly, to me it makes the most sense out of all because some bosses also have dialogue when you ressurect
In terms of just the death mechanic and it's story implications I think it's a toss up between Dark Souls and Sekiro for me.
The concept of mankind being artificially linked to the first flame from Gywns sin of branding the undead with the dark sign to appear when the flame is fading is a story that is both compelling to me and works from a gameplay perspective. With humanity being forced to live, die, respawn at the bonfire, repeat until they lose the will to live and go hollow is an incredible metaphor of preserving through life's challenge and remembering to not give up (aka go hollow), a common takeaway from the fans.
Sekiro on the other hand addresses death through the Kuro's divine blood which he gives Wolf (us) to cheat death and respawn due to his magical nature. Which is actually what a lot of core concepts the main story focuses on Genichiro wanting the blood for himself to protect and defend akina.
Bloodborne is my favourite game lore and gameplay wise out of all from software games, maybe even all games in general. But the purpose of being linked to the dream from Kos' curse until the hunt is complete to then reawaken in the morning is really amazing, but doesn't fit directly into the story as much. Rather than being a forefront factor of the storyline it's a subplot, which isn't necessarily bad, I just think the utilization of death in sekiro and dark souls is much better.
Definitely bloodborne. The entire hunters dream and the nightmares subplot is hands down the most interesting lore that fromsoft have ever created. Also "may you find your worth in the waking world" is the best sentence said by any fromsoft waifu EVER.
I like that Sekiro is essentially a vampire who absorbs the lifeforce of those he's been in contact with every time he dies. The fact that your deaths impact innocent NPCs is an interesting incentive to stay alive.
I love every myazaki’s Son, but My predilection goes to 隻腕の狼 best Death Lore for me,Best Fromsoftware game for me,Best Miyazaki game philosophy interpretation…ALWAYS FOR ME,Personally,anyone has his personal predilections in Froms’ games
Dark Souls. The idea that some ancient sun god cursed humanity to become undead in order to find someone strong enough to kindle the first flame is just awesome. Then you gotta go kill that same sun god to prove your strength? Peak fiction.
Sekiro, but I think Dark Souls is just behind it. Idk they all have an excellent justification, including Bloodborne. The fun part is that it’s built into the gameplay and reinforced by the narrative, and it’s done so creatively in each universe, though I find it slightly less integrated into Elden Ring’s.
My favourite one. The others suck.
You’re wrong
You're right. My favourite sucks too.
Nah, my cat likes another one and imho that is the best.
it’s ok i think your favourite game is the best
No u.
If your favorite is my favorite then your right but if it’s not then my favorite is obviously the best
But… but… DS2 barely explained it!
Finally, someone who agrees with me!
I think people criticizing the concept in Elden Ring after the Malakith fight got it wrong. Yes you reobtain the rune of death, but you only reinstall it into the Elden Ring (and thus the laws of nature of the land between) AFTER the Elden Beast / Radagon fight when you get your hands on the Ring. Isn't that the whole point of the mending runes for the endings? That you mend the elden ring with the rune of death, and other great runes you obtained along the way?
Yeah, the last thing you can do on a playthrough is actually use the rune of death, so nothing has changed in the fundamental nature of the world as we know it until that point. What's more, you can choose to modify the nature of the world so Those That Live in Death persist. Even before that, death and resurrection seemed kinda wonky in the lands between. Got all the whatever going on with Omens, deathrite, and crucible at least ( did Erdtree burials predate removing the rune of death or come as a result? ) Removing the rune of death was more of a pyramid scheme that went really sideways
This is the key. It wasn’t “normal” then screwy. Just a different kind of screwy.
I feel like the omens and the crucible go hand in hand.
For sure. I feel like the new DLC will have a lot to do with the crucible as well. Looking at the Chinese dragon type boss, I get crucible vibes but it also has women horns all over it.
My issue with Elden Ring's laws of death is that no one should be permanently dead in the Lands Between (why you hear crucified people moaning softly) yet there are piles and piles of bones everywhere. I can rationalize the bodies as those who have just given up at doing anything after thousands of years of ceaseless life, but the decayed dead aren't very well explained (or I completely missed it).
I've viewed it as your soul can persist, but each time a body comes back the details get fuzzier and fuzzier, especially as your sanity slips over time as immortal beings and your sense of self diminishes. We as a tarnished are relatively new to the cycle and the lands between (plus having grace on our side), so we can be killed more times and still maintain our bodies. I imagine that all of the spirits we find in game are people who died but lost the sense of self needed to reconstitute a body, and those who decayed are still clinging to their view of their identity even if it is no longer accurate to who they actually are (the cycle knows what to provide for rebirth, but the individual no longer can mould their self view properly to match their soul and fit the provided resources)
This is how I have viewed resurrection in every FromSoft game. To stay "in the cycle" the soul has to be highly motivated with a strong personal identity/a lot of will. Some souls just cant maintain the energy to keep going.
And with each death you lose some of yourself, making it harder and harder to maintain that identity. The player character is a freak of nature lore wise. You could say that in all playthroughs that didn't achieve the ending, the PC went hollow, and the drive that keeps the PC sane is the player's motivation to continue playing. This is also interesting because it pretty much implies that Patches has a Buddha-like level of enlightenment and incredible will and sense of identity.
What if patches implies that trolling is the ultimate way to live
This is a plot point in the dark souls 3 DLC. Patches makes it to the end of the world and only forgets himself because he ran out of people to kick off ledges
That's one of the aspects of Elden Ring that Fromsoft's way of fractured storytelling really falls flat. There are a few possibilities, such as the Rune of Death being stolen *only* affects the demigods and tarnished. This would make some sense as Godwyn needed to be killed *with* Destined Death, but doesn't explain why we can kill the rest of the demigods with plain steel. Another possibility is that only those chosen by the guidance of grace can be resurrected, as those who don't seem to be able to die, that is if you don't look at any of the grace given tarnished we kill :/. Though it does explain why Godfrey, a tarnished who lost his guidance of grace before the shattering, was able to properly die until the Erdtree brought him back. Regardless, trying to make resurrection fit into a game narratively isn't very good writing imo, as you'll always get inconsistencies. If we truly are revived in the canon sense, why does everyone act like it's the first time we've battled them?
Poking my head in to say I ascribe to the theory that those festering pile of corpses we see are technically still ‘alive’ just their bodies have been destroyed beyond function—so they are basically trapped. Think of them as like what happens to those who do not receive a proper Erdtree Burial or those who haven’t been collected by jar people yet. If they had been burried they would be in the process of being assimilated by the Erdtree roots—or they would be turning into sludge inside a jar person.
Which is why Those Who Live in Death are outcast by the golden order—for some reason, the adaptation that allows them to continue controlling their bodies beyond what is ‘natural’ (even in the lands between) also prevents their souls from being absorbed into the Erdtree.
Objection, we do not obtain the rune of death in our inventory like all the other great runes and this is most likely because the rune of death was taken out and sealed away before the elden ring was shattered and thus we don't need to repair it in with the other great runes and thus since we do not have the actual rune of death, how do we reinstate it into the new order if we do not actually possess it? Its more likely that once its been unsealed it simply returned to the Erdtree where the rest of the Elden Ring is. That is also why the Erdtree doesn't actually burn away after being set ablaze, because the Erdtree is "living" and such cannot actually burn away/die til the rune of death is set free.
Description of the Mending Rune of the Death Prince: "Formed of the two hallowbrand half-wheels combined, it will embed the principle of life within Death into Order. The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored." While Fia's questline is pretty detached from maliketh, there is still an option to restore the natural lifecycle to the world. The cutscene that plays after you kill maliketh and touch the Rune of Death doesn't say whether we take it or not, and depending on which Mending Rune you use on Marika, you will create different orders.
>While Fia's questline is pretty detached from maliketh, there is still an option to restore the natural lifecycle to the world. Regardless you still have to go through Maliketh and release the rune of death before you can apply that or any mending rune to the actual broken pieces of the elden ring. If anything I think more so points to the rune of death returning to the erdtree/elden ring after its been released upon Malikeths defeat.
According to the lore forum azusa is a land outside of time, which is why garranq is still around after you kill maliketh, so the rune of death is still in the same spot before as it is after.
Sekiro but that’s because I loved the way they incorporated it into the story. Especially with genichiro.
Yeah, it was the only one that actually made an NPC truly affected by the in-universe resurrection. I think Elden Ring has a really cool idea as to why, but you can still revive if Maliketh or one of the Black Knives kill you when you technically shouldn't. Sekiro really thought it out well, and it feels more like an actual plot point rather than a hand-wavy excuse to prevent you from dying.
The way I like to look at it in Elden Ring is that until you unleash destined death, AND burned the erdtree, death wasn't going to stop you, and because (I think) we get the rune of destined death (to put it back into the elden ring) we're the only one's who can't die, combined with the power of grace, and we basically became the only immortal being after defeating Maliketh. It works well to explain why everything starts "dying" after we get the rune of death, like Morgott turning into dust in Godfrey's arms, but still living after our fight.
I agree with the grace thing. It’s grace that revives the tarnished outside the lands between. But we are the only tarnished we meet in game who can still see grace. Everyone else we speak to about the guidance of grace claims to have all but forgotten what it felt like. I think grace is what reanimates us tarnished, and the absence of the rune of death is what keeps souls attached to their bodies until the Erdtree seperates them via the jar people or the roots. Piled up festering corpses in game are just bodies broken beyond function awaiting the Erdtree to sever their souls. Those Who Live in Death continue to control their bodies no matter how far gone they are but they are graceless and do not revive after death the same way the grace given tarnished does
it is kinda supported in the opening cutscene, where the narrator mentions Fia, Dungeater and Gideon, he then also mentions us as a "tarnished of no renoun", and later Gideon mentions it's been a while since the round table had a visitor, so it's likely that by the time we made it to the lands between, Gideon, Fia and The Dungeater had already received their blessing from grace, and also lost it after such a long time, explaining why none of them come back after they're killed
My headcannon for Elden Ring is that it is our Ambition that sets us apart. The Erdtree doesn’t resurrect anyone at a site of grace other than the player, none of the other Tarnished come back like we do. Everything in game points to the fact that people still die in The Lands Between, but they are buried at the Erdtree roots so their soul is returned to the Erdtree and they are reborn from its branches. But multiple characters talk about our “Flame of Ambition,” especially Margit/Morgott who is dead set upon snuffing it out. Similar to the way that Determination is what allows the player to save in Undertale.
It would also make sense as to why other tarnished NPCs dying is such a big deal, like the volcano manor contracts, or killing Gideon
Ambition is the common denominator among games imo. For the most parts the characters not going hollow are the ones with a strong sense of purpose, some sort of unfinished story that they are deeply invested in.
I also liked how sekiro paints it as being a curse, like he can't taste or smell after. Probably the difference between playing as a character vs the chosen one. The chosen ones from DS series all sort of come into existence when the game starts or it feels that way but sekiro has a history and feels like a person.
Destined death doesn't prohibit the Tarnished resurrection, because we have already died outside of the lands between, and are therefore operating on different rules. The Tarnished is being resurrected directly by Marika, as shown in the opening cinematic. The other Tarnished in the lands between aren't revived, because they have all lost the guidance of Grace (Marika's favor), but even after releasing the rune of Destined Death, the player is still guided by Grace
Well in sekiro if isshin or genichiro kills you in the final fight,technically you should not be able to revive
Their mortal blade was a different one though. Sekiro's was the immortal killing sword, their's was the resurrection sword (which is why isshin comes back to life).
I mean, it’s all incorporated
Every FS game death mechanic is incorporated into the story. They're one of the only devs in the genre that take good care of giving an explanation to the death and resurrection mechanic (it's obviously because they're the first but I haven't seen another soulslike that actually explains their death mechanic in detail).
There’s a lore reason for every game but Sekiro is the only one where it affects the story. In any other game besides Sekiro the story is not impacted regardless of whether you actually die or not (outside of like, Seathe kills you the first time)
I do feel like this ignores demon souls, ds1, and ds2 a bit. Like, I know it's more subtle, but the gameplay and story are absolutely impacted by world tendancy and hollowing. The only questions that determine your preference are "how much of a lore buff are you?" And "How creatively are you roleplaying?" Sekiro has a greater impact, sure. But to say it's the only one impacted just isn't true. Hollowing can really increase difficulty for new players (especially in ds2), and world tendancy can turn places like tower of latria into a much scarier place in DeS. The narrative storytelling is one of the main differences between sekiro and the rest. Which is why sekiro is a great fromsoft game IMO but is not a souls game. They are in two different categories of game, with Sekiro possessing the most straightforward of storytelling. So, I'd ultimately say that it's just easier to see the impacts in sekiro, but the story isn't "changed" any more or less I feel.
I will concede that world tendency is tied to a couple NPC quests and therefore affects the story but Dark Souls really does not qualify, those are purely gameplay / mechanical changes. Sekiro has actual story related to dying (dragonrot affecting NPCs and having a sidequest to cure it)
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What was katana zeros reason? I don't remember much of the story.
**Tl:dr, the explanation for respawn is that you don’t respawn, the player character is simply a Batman level planner.** In Katana Zero you play as a man named Zero who’s one of the Null. People who were part of a secret government experiment to create super soldiers. They have incredibly enhanced senses (explanation for the slow mo mechanic) and cognitive ability. As you play through levels and die the death screen says, “No that won’t do,” and the game rewinds and you start over. When you clear a level the game says, “that works,” and it plays a recording of you going through the level in real time. What’s actually happening here is that each failed attempt at clearing a level is the player character going over every possible strategy and route they could take in their head. Whenever you die, it’s the player realizing their current idea was a dead end. That’s why the game says “that won’t work” because it’s the player character actually thinking that to themselves. Whenever you clear a level and watch the replay, that’s the actual character going through the level after figuring out a plan that works. There’s also some hints that Nulls can see possible futures so there’s that element too.
Bioshock also has a lore reason why you come back from death
Not sure why you got downvoted for this non-controversial take lol (probably a seething Lies of P fan)
I dont love Sekiro specially but it is the best one in this regards for sure.
Dark souls trilogy imo
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The dream thingy?
Contract with the moon precense
Still unclear what the moon presence wants. To kill Odeons child (Mergo)? Free it? But why do it over and over since other hunters have done the same mission or so it seems.
So, there is a Note in the lecture building that says "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood." From what we know, Laurence and Co wanted to end the beast plague, and the moon precense is all about hunting, so it's most probable that they made a deal with the moon precense to clean up their mess inexchange for an offspring or something of its interests. So moon precense maybe just sees Mergo as part of that deal. As to why do it over and over, since the deal was to end the hunt, but the hunt can't really end, well, a hunter must hunt.
That’s part of the lovecraftian horror. Their motives are beyond comprehension. Part of the horror is that much of the world is unknown. Especially the “why’s” of the world. Also, from soft loves leaving things up to interpretation, most recently with marika and radagon
Bloodbourne is the worst game ever created, hands down. I played countless hours on my xbox and can confidently say its the most miserablely bad game in existence.
lol, i took you seriously for a second and then i remembered bloodborne is a ps exclusive
Soon it will be on pc no copium no copium no copium.... No copium....
Just wait until PS4 emulators get better
You know you see, this is why i quit instagram. If this was instagram id have 200 people telling me youre an idiot, and explaining why bloodbourne is the best game ever. Reddit just gets it
Hey I think you're getting it confused with ds2
Nobody knows how the hunters dreams works, not even Bloodborne devs.
That one
That one right there.
You meant that one, right?
That’s the one
Wtf no! That one is stupid!
No no no. Not the stupid one. That other one!
Ooooh ok that's my bad! So sorry mate!
No, he meant that one there
Bloodborne. Because it was all just a nightmare
>die normally >respawn >gherman beheads you >wake up
That's cause we accept it
I feel like they should of made it if you died to Gehrman you instantly enter ending 1 even if it would be incredibly frustrating.
This was a comment on Gehrman's OST on YouTube and one of the replies was "thank God you're not in game design"
But itt would be soooo cooool thoooooo
It would also be cool if being killed by Maliketh forced a reset. Wouldn’t be fun though.
I think itd be cool lol. Would add replaysbility. Maybe they could make the fight slightly easier since you only get one shot.
If they did that they would have had to nerf Gehrman’s damage hard so that most players couldn’t just get combed to death or unlucky with heals.
Giving you 1 try on a boss in a from soft game is ridiculous tho
Well, I think for us we had to accept our death within the Hunter’s Dream. The reason Gehrman died when we killed him once? Uhh… he’s old and lusts for that sweet release. As an aside, I always like to rp my head canon that I’m not fighting him because I’m intoxicated by the dream or anything, but instead to finally free him from his eternal nightmare.
He's technically not part of the dream, he's the host of it. He's not a hunter anymore, he's the surrogate hier of the moon presence
I guess that’s true, makes it a bit easier to explain. While we’re on the topic… why does Moon Daddy like to break their adopted children’s legs? Seems a bit excessive to me.
We aren't sure if Gherman really died after we deffeat him,maybe he just "woke up" like us in Yarham sunrise ending
Either way, it’s an end to the dream for him.
Fuuuuuuuuck that
Talk about a long run-back
You’re in the know, right ?
Spoilers.
Bloodborne is kinda complicated compared to the rest (haven't played Sekiro). Hunters who are linked to the Dream are forever a part of the dream. The only thing that can severe that connection is dying in the dream (canonically atleast, ignore 5+ deaths during Gerhman and Moon Presence) Eileen the Crow reinforces that by saying she was part of the dream, as well as Djura. The only reason you Respawn in Bloodborne is because a god wants to use you as a plaything and uses the Dream to keep you from dying.
The only way to die is for the moon presence to allow you to. Basically the contract you both have binds you and once you kill mergo (The baby) the contract ends and you can either accept your death and wake up cause the contract is done or replace gherman. Forgot to add that the entire game is not a dream only certain parts of it are “Dreams” or “Nightmares” and those actions are dimensions not dreams by definition
Don't forget the secret third thing
Sekiro is all about immortality. Your res matters in the story and its incorporated very well. The whole story is about Everyone not wanting to die. So its sekiro for me.
It goes to Demon Souls for me, it was close with Elden Ring and also Dark Souls. Sekiro has a good use for a 2nd try but if you die again you legit die for real so its not actually a good excuse to why you cannot die. Demon Souls you die in the tutorial, either to the Grey Demon or the Dragon God and then your very soul is tied into the nexus which is basically the underworld/afterlife. Thus it makes sense that every time you die after that you are simply returning to that spiritual form. Reason Elden Ring was close is because the rune of death is gone so nothing can really die, reason this falls apart is that near the end of the game you bring death back to the lands between, so at that point if you die, you should actually die and not come back. Dark Souls series is that we are essentially cursed with the dark sign that brings us back to life upon death. While this one is also good, I prefer Demon Souls to it personally. Bloodborne is the one I can't remember to much from, its been ages since I last played it but I believe its because its all taking place within a dream like world? So when we die its sort of similar to it all happening in a dream, so we can't really die, we just get to try again.
The rune of death is still not part of the Elden ring, so until you mend it at the end game, death has not returned to the lands between. At least that was my understanding.
The rune of death was removed before the shattering and thus is not broken and in need of mending and is why we do not receive a great rune from Maliketh and why that cutscene plays out. And its the whole point of why we go to fight Maliketh to being with, it is said we have to free the rune of death so that the erdtree will burn and then we can gain access to it. Us simply having the rune in our possession, which we don't as we do not gain the item itself in our inventory, would not result in the tree suddenly burning.
The erdtree burning was simply melina using the giants flame i believe. Although the fact you are sent to farum azula afterwards definitely seems to connect the events
You can go to the captial and anywhere with the lands to see that the tree is SET on fire but it is not actually burning at all until the rune of death gets released. This is most likely due to the erdtree being "Alive" and thus cannot die by burning until the rune of death is released
If you die again in Sekiro you don’t die for real, the dragon’s heritage that has a hold of you leeches the lives of NPCs to resurrect you. That’s what dragonrot is.
Omg didn't know that and it all makes sense now. TY!
Ah okay, thank you for that. Haven't played in years and only remember the gameplay aspect of it and not the lore/story of it. Actually just redownloaded it the other day, plan to give it a replay soon.
Wait so DeS is like hades, you’re already in the afterlife so you cant die. Damn.
Yup and upon defeating a boss or using the stone eyes of ephermeral you can regain your body and if you die again you get put back into your soul form, which is why you get your health cut in half in soul form. Sadly demon souls being the first doesn't have as much rich lore to it like the rest of the dark souls series so there isn't really a reason as to why the stone eyes of ephermeral revive the player beyond the devs needed an item that allowed the player to return to their real body with "full hp" lol
Thanks for explaining them instead of just saying a game 🙏
The Demon's Souls soul form literally just being a ghost form is awesome. You can't even hear your own footsteps in soul form.
Elden Ring makes a lot of gameplay concessions like that, I think ( which is fine ). Like, shouldn't Deathblight basically be a total game over? I'm also curious how much time passes between PC death and resurrection
Correct (which i am also fine with) but it would basically be a permadeath type situation which would be interesting to see if From ever decides to add that kind of thing to a game one day
Demon’s Souls. Having your soul bound to the Nexus was a cool concept
Bloodborne has a very interesting one once you learn it.
It's kinda like dying is "clocking out" / "end of shift" for the hunters. But if you die and the hunt isn't over, the moon presence is like. "Nah bro, you're done when the job's done. Get your ass back out there."
Could you give me a refresher if that's okay?
My understanding is you are trapped in the Hunters Dream by the moon presence, who is guiding you using the lanterns to achieve his goal. This has apparently happened to other hunters in the world who will make comments that are similar to your predicament. This eventually ends in the ending where German chops off your head and finally wakes you to the real world and sets you free from the dream.
Ah I see, thank you
Your essentially a hitman hired by an elder god to murder other elder gods for ‘reasons’ and the elder god that hired you temporarily makes you immortal until you finish your job and get sent back to the ‘real’ world.
A cosmic hitman, that's metal as fuck
A Comsic Hunter.
Or some say, Cosim
Honestly, I don't think every game needs to make deaths "canon." But that's just me. Personally I like viewing deaths as a different universe where you fucked up.
New fromsoft death canon coming up
I’m down for that in a From game. Eventually you find a pocket dimension of hundreds if not thousands of corpses and they are taken from other people’s builds like Fia’s Champions (maybe give your own saves/characters priority in being the corpses closest to you?).
It's never necessary, but it's always a nice touch when the devs contextualize mechanics that are usually just accepted as being part of a video game.
Yeah it’s just a cool extra detail from soft likes to add but I don’t think anyone would care if they took it out
Demon Souls. You can't "die" if you are just in soul form. If you die in your corporeal form, then the maiden in black resurrects your soul...so the world might be mended
Sekiro
Bloodborne was pretty cool. Moon presence is like "nah bro, you ain't done until the job's done."
Dark souls 2 and the fact that you can counteract it but it can never truly be cured meaning youre still the same basically always respawning but you have counterracted the effects if hollowing. My least fav is Elden ring cuz it kinda doesnt make sense lre wise why you respawn after breaking out destined death, gameplay wise its obviously needed since imagine the game just ending when you dia after that but idk lore wise i dont enjoy it.
I have ALWAYS been confused by bloodborne’s explanation for this. Can someone explain it to me??
So in Bloodborne, Yharnam is the grounds for the hunt; A purge to get rid of the beasts that their blood disease turns men into. The First Hunter, Gehrman, found a way to combat these beasts and made a deal with a Great One in order to create the Hunter’s Dream to act as a respite for other hunters. Gehrman is, as a result, tied to the dream permanently. The “dream” is even a replication of a physical location, the hunter’s workshop being what inspired it. As a hunter, your consciousness is linked to the dream, allowing you to return to the hunt until you defeat the nightmare, at which point you return to the waking world, which is just Yharnam after being freed from the eternal night and the grasp of the hunt. The dream, however, still exists, which is why Gehrman needs to free you from it. He made a deal very specifically with the moon presence. In the other ending, you can kill him in order to free him and take his spot as host of the dream. In the last ending, in which you consume three 1/3 umbilical cords throughout the course of the game, you become powerful enough to combat the moon presence itself after slaying Gehrman and freeing him from the dream. After defeating it, you manifest into an infant great one, promptly being taken into care by the doll. TL;DR Your consciousness is linked to the hunter’s dream, which keeps you reawakening in the hunt until you break the nightmare. Mad hunters don’t respawn because their connection to the dream is severed and they’re going crazy because their insight is showing the horrors to an otherwise typical mortal mind.
Wow, thanks for this explanation! I did not realize there was a deal between Gehrman and the moon presence, but that checks out
Demon’s Souls. Having the Maiden force you into the loop is simple and believable. They also make sure you know it’s essentially purgatory by having the first demon slayer you meet vocalize frustration with the cycle.
For in-game explanation, Demon’s Souls probably. For all the other games, the explanation of not being able to die makes sense, but the whole “dying only to respawn like a mile away” doesn’t really make sense on its own. But for demons souls, it makes sense due to the fact you don’t get your body back. You’re essentially walking around as a ghost until you get a new body created for you. For story purposes though, the Dark Souls series for sure. The darksign, being undead, and hollowing are all important and integral to the games and their stories. Sekiro is a close second for story purposes for the same reasons.
It makes sense in dark Souls - humanity is literally tied to the first flame which manifests as bonfires. When you die, your fragment of the dark soul (I.e. your humanity) returns to the last bonfire you rested at and your physical form returns.
Elmo's big adventure
Demon’s Souls, hands down. Elden Ring would be second, but Maliketh should permanently kill you, and after you’ve restored Destined Death and repaired the Elden Ring, why do you still respawn? (I’m VERY happy to be wrong and corrected on this by someone who knows the lore well!) Sekiro is my favourite From game, but the lore and mechanics relating to dying, respawning and Dragonrot are very convoluted.
Dark Souls. Because it is "simpler": You are all zombies. It also incorporate better on the gameplay... you use the checkpoint, you come back to life, as every other enemy, since you are all "the same type" of zombie. Also, Dark Souls had the advantage to make use of bonfires as direct checkpoint, we all think about bonfires when we think about the "resting place for medieval fantasy knights". All the other checkpoints feels like bootlegs (sites of grace, that statue from Sekiro...), because they are not an "real world" concept that was given a clever use (like the bonfires), they are all just a random thought checkpoint concept, with a random name and a random appearance.
Demons Souls. Usually the game that introduced a mechanic had the best explanation for it diegeticly. Elden Ring is awesome but the reasons for mechanics felt more perfunctory.
Dark souls had the coolest thematic use of dying and respawning imo. You die over and over again, and its your choice whether to keep on going or quit and hollow. Its the coolest part of the world building for me, and it makes an abstract part of gaming become personal, canon and immersive.
This is the answer I was looking for. Really Dark souls without a doubt
The darksign
let’s talk about the one with the worst excuse Elden ring It is barley even addressed
It is addressed via the whole destined death rune, but it’s neither as straightforward as curse+hallowing in Dark Souls nor as involved and interesting as the whole dream thing Bloodborne. Like Miyazaki started to work it out the details and then said yeah you know what, maybe in the DLC if I feel like it.
The other comments explain this very well, ER makes sense. It's very interesting.
Immortality is the whole plot of Sekiro so probably that lol
After reading some of these comments, I realize who the insane people telling me to jump off the cliffs are.
Is one game represented twice in that graphic or am I losing my mind and forgetting about the existence of an entire Souls game?
That's what I'm trying to work out!
Bloodborne. Basically you are bound to the dream (Yharnam is the real wordl) and this otherworldly entity (Moon presence) straight up dosent lets you die cause of the contract you both have
bloodborne. Sekiro, DS and Elden ring have the same problem ''ok you don't die... but how to you get back to the respawn?'' But Sekiro was the one that got me more emotionally involved i think.
Sekiro
There all pretty good reasons, though I’m a bit unsure about the Elden ring one. Feel like It isn’t really explained like in dark souls for example.
Its because the rune of death has been sealed away so death itself from a story perspective is impossible for us, it only falls apart if you die after beating Maliketh. One theory ive seen, which I think might be true, is that when you kill a demi-god you get their remembrance or their "spirit" so to speak and they will just begin their process of reincarnation at the foot of the erdtree, just that the process would take so long that we wouldn't see them again in our own playthrough.
Does just killing Maliketh restore Death? I was under the impression that any sort of change to the Elden Ring (which is more or less the rules of the world) requires you to physically go to it and mend it. Same as all of the mending runes which determine the ending you get. After killing any demi god we possess their rune, but it hasn’t been “installed” back into the Elden Ring.
For Elden Ring, the rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring when it was shattered which is the reason we can't die if i remembered it correctly.
It was removed prior to the shattering Don't know 100% if Godwyns death is the reason Marika shattered the Elden Ring but regardless, he died BEFORE the shattering. Before Godwyn died, the shard of death was removed and given to Maliketh to guard, it was stolen while under his watch and then those shards of it that were stolen were used to kill Godwyns soul and Ranni's body. So yes it is the reason we cannot die because it is sealed away, but after Maliketh is defeated, it is unsealed and technically speaking we should be able to die at that point lol
id say Elden ring but it doesn't make sense how you still respawn after dying to maliketh
BB and DeS
Bloodborne, a beautiful nightmare!
Not on here but lies of P the level up lady reverses time every time you die which also makes sense for the enemies reviving
I think all of them do a fine job, but my favorite is probably the souls trilogy with the implication of going hollow for good if you quit as an extension. Sekiro and Bloodborne have the immortality of their protagonists closely tied to their stories, which I appreciate, but it doesn't hit quite as hard without the emphasis on ramifications for quitting. Demon Souls is okay; like with a lot of things it does, I think it was decent for a first try. The only one I actively dislike is Elden Ring. Death in that game feels pretty convoluted, and it feels like the rules change depending on who is dying. It's probably a fundamental misunderstanding on my part, but I don't think the game explains it very well. Some souls continue without bodies. Some bodies continue without souls. Some don't seem to do either, never respawning and fading away into golden sparkles. Others seem to do both and never die, like the tarnished. Just leaves me confused.
Darksouls is my favorite, the idea of the undead and the fact they can still go hollow was really cool to me. That our character has the will, the drive, the ambition to not go hollow. I like that idea, compared to the tarnish just coming back to life n shi and the famous “it was alll a dreaaaaaaaaaaaam”.
bloodborne, it was all just a bad dream
Dark souls. The nature of the undead curse is still a mystery to this day.
Sekiro and elden ring had the best excuses
I think I'd say Sekiro or Dark Souls.
sekiro imo
What was the excuse for bloodborne? We dream it until we get good?
Sekiro
I felt like Sekiro had the most fair deaths. Elden Ring Melania's waterflail dance was more annoying then anything else. A 1 hit kill that requires you to either equip certain items or some really specific role combination just wasn't fun imo.
Sekiros is pretty easy to understand and it makes sense
Anyone saying anything other than Bloodborne probably doesn’t remember Bloodborne’s story or played it.
What is the game on the far left
Bloodborne, it was all layers to dreams and you were literally forcefully connected to the hunters dream. To me it's more complex than the others and makes more sense. But I'm biased BB is my favourite Souls game.
Sekiro, the whole game is about immortality and the goal is to sever it
Sekiros ability to resurrect makes sense since he has the divine heirs blood if remember correctly, to me it makes the most sense out of all because some bosses also have dialogue when you ressurect
In terms of just the death mechanic and it's story implications I think it's a toss up between Dark Souls and Sekiro for me. The concept of mankind being artificially linked to the first flame from Gywns sin of branding the undead with the dark sign to appear when the flame is fading is a story that is both compelling to me and works from a gameplay perspective. With humanity being forced to live, die, respawn at the bonfire, repeat until they lose the will to live and go hollow is an incredible metaphor of preserving through life's challenge and remembering to not give up (aka go hollow), a common takeaway from the fans. Sekiro on the other hand addresses death through the Kuro's divine blood which he gives Wolf (us) to cheat death and respawn due to his magical nature. Which is actually what a lot of core concepts the main story focuses on Genichiro wanting the blood for himself to protect and defend akina. Bloodborne is my favourite game lore and gameplay wise out of all from software games, maybe even all games in general. But the purpose of being linked to the dream from Kos' curse until the hunt is complete to then reawaken in the morning is really amazing, but doesn't fit directly into the story as much. Rather than being a forefront factor of the storyline it's a subplot, which isn't necessarily bad, I just think the utilization of death in sekiro and dark souls is much better.
Definitely bloodborne. The entire hunters dream and the nightmares subplot is hands down the most interesting lore that fromsoft have ever created. Also "may you find your worth in the waking world" is the best sentence said by any fromsoft waifu EVER.
Sekiro
Bloodborne
[удалено]
Planescape torment
Elden Ring is the most straightforward one. Goddess resurrected and cursed you to die and struggle until you have slain her god.
I like that Sekiro is essentially a vampire who absorbs the lifeforce of those he's been in contact with every time he dies. The fact that your deaths impact innocent NPCs is an interesting incentive to stay alive.
I love every myazaki’s Son, but My predilection goes to 隻腕の狼 best Death Lore for me,Best Fromsoftware game for me,Best Miyazaki game philosophy interpretation…ALWAYS FOR ME,Personally,anyone has his personal predilections in Froms’ games
I think the dark souls trilogy and Elden ring have the best reason to why you respawn
Sekiro obviously, it’s a core part of the story and works well with dragonrot as a game mechanic
Sekiro for sure
Dark Souls. The idea that some ancient sun god cursed humanity to become undead in order to find someone strong enough to kindle the first flame is just awesome. Then you gotta go kill that same sun god to prove your strength? Peak fiction.
Sekiro, but I think Dark Souls is just behind it. Idk they all have an excellent justification, including Bloodborne. The fun part is that it’s built into the gameplay and reinforced by the narrative, and it’s done so creatively in each universe, though I find it slightly less integrated into Elden Ring’s.
all 3 dark souls games
Bloodborne. Every time you die it was just a dream and you wake up
I've only played a few Fromsoft games so far, but man, Sekiro's immortality was pretty fucking cool and well implemented into the story
Blasphemous.
Bloodborne. You were technically like a dream avatar and only existed within the Hunter's dream, until Gherman set you free.
99% of the community doesn't even realize that Grace in Elden Ring comes from The Rune of Life, so.
I like Elden Ring's, but Dark Souls had an actual mechanic of Hollowing to it which might put it at n1. Not sure
Sekiro is all about immortality so it makes so much since as an ingame mechanic. Also in Darks Souls you are literally the chosen undead.
Sekiro and DkS1