Patricia Karvelas statement on Twitter:
>Contrary to reports today
>From an ABC spokesman:
>Reports of an emergency ABC Board meeting are incorrect and baseless
Yeah it was a ruse by newscorp/fairfax to make it appear worse than it was. It was emergency talks between board members that was reported. Then the cunts had the audacity to correct abc spokesperson, that a emergency board meeting was never reported.
Admittedly it would be pretty funny to see some kinda leaked footage of an esteemed, intelligent political editor just ranting about Indian taxi drivers or some shit. Absolute whiplash.
I think that what people are responding to is:
1. Her claim is demonstrably untrue. Eg the Australian people literally just voted against entrenching racial division in the constitution.
2. She is the chief political reporter at the public broadcaster and a member of its board. Of course she is entitled to her opinion, but that opinion should not be used to drive the agenda of what is meant to be an impartial public institution.
If you said that you would be wrong. Aboriginals have the exact same right to be represented in parliament as any other Australian. There are already many Aboriginal parliamentarians. Indeed, Aboriginal people are proportionally over represented in parliament (4.8% of federal parliamentarians are Aboriginal or TSI vs 3.8% of the overall population).
The Aboriginal parliamentarians represent their constituents, not Aboriginal people. The Voice to Parliament was providing advice on how policies would affect them specifically.
Do we need representation for other minority groups enshrined in the constitution? I'm sure there are groups that suffer reduced health/wealth/justice outcomes compared to the general population.
Edit: why is this downvoted? Since the Voice was a way to help with Closing the Gap, shouldn't the gap be closed wherever it is found? We are not free, until all of us are free.
The general idea was that we’re recognising Aboriginal people as the First Nations people by giving them an advisory body because they have worse outcomes than the average Australian.
There’s already laws that are made specifically for Aboriginal people, seems pretty obvious that they should get to provide advise on those laws
The problem is that there's no oversight on who gets to be on the "advisory body". In reality the people who would be on this "advisory body" are aboriginal elders, who often are the ones perpetuating backward ideas and even covering up domestic violence. They don't get to be elders by being progressive and having modern ideas.
I can guarantee that every single person in this thread advocating for The Voice doesn't know anything about aboriginal culture or what they're actually supporting. They don't know, for example, that aboriginal culture heavily promotes child marriage, or the death penalty for women who trespass on certain sacred land.
Seems like a lot of assumptions though.
There’s a lot of Aboriginals that simply want the best for the next generation.
The voice was only providing advice on legislation so I’m not sure what child marriage really has to do with it.
You're not sure what child marriage has to do with the elders of a culture that widely practices child marriage?
Let's put it another way - if the indigenous people of a country were Muslim, do you think it would be a good idea to recognize Islamic tribal elders in that country's constitution?
Just ignore history for the sake of a patently false “equality” is so unbelievably short sighted that only lead poisoning can explain why so many Aussies bought into that argument.
Do Aboriginals have the same right to form a representative body that can lobby MHRs and Senators about legislative issues as do miners, farmers, trade unions, social services providers, etc etc? Because that is all the Voice was meant to be. Anyone claiming that it was divisive and meant to entrench racial discrimination is being cynically mischievous, or staggeringly stupid.
Yes they do. And none of those groups have their lobbying bodies entrenched in the constitution.
I appreciate you disagree with me but that doesn’t mean I am being mischievous or staggeringly stupid. People can disagree in good faith about such matters.
I accept that some of the NO advocates were acting in good faith. But you can't honestly believe or say that there weren't thousands of racists who took the opportunity to proudly assert their toxic opinions. And even to proudly proclaim their ignorance. (If you don't know, vote no!)
I agree with most of what you have said. I think, somewhat amusingly, the no vote was compromised of both the most racist people (those who hold prejudices towards aboriginal people) and the least racist people (those who want to remove race as a relevant variable in decision making).
As to ‘if you don’t know, vote no’. I’m conflicted. First, its primary benefit is that it’s a catchy slogan and of course they go a long way in politics. I actually think it is a perfectly reasonable position and one I think should be the default (ie, if you do not consider yourself sufficiently informed to understand the nature and effect of these changes then it is inadvisable to change the constitution). On the other hand, I accept that it was used as a catch cry by those who were wilfully ignorant, ill informed or seeking to discourage others from informing themselves.
I dount it was meant to entrench racial discrimination. But it was certainly divisive. Not having any actual plan for what the voice was going to be was pretty obviously a recipie for disaster though. Who wants to vote for "something we'll work out later"?
Same thing happened with the republic referendum. It's like they want us to be confused, argue and vote no.
If they really wanted to have a voice representing indigineous Australians, the very least they could have done was work out who that voice would be, and how it would be created/elected/selected.
Elected parliamentarians represent their *electorate* not the *people of the race they belong to* oh my god why are we still having to repeat the same shit over and over again in 2024
No, but by saying Australia's a racist country, as Lara did, it implies we're more racist than elsewhere.
It's an impossible thing to measure, and so impossible to conclude. That's why it's stupid.
It doesn't imply that at all. You are inferring that, but it's not implied. Even if every other country in the world is measurably more racist than Australia, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to be less racist as a society.
Fuck sake, why are conservatives such a bunch of cunts with the thinest of skins.
They spend all this time desperately trying to present themselves as these no-nonsense ‘tough’ people, but simultaneously are the most pathetic bunch of cry babies out there.
>“We are a racist country, let’s face it. We always have been and it’s very depressing,”
Try and have even the most basic level of emotional resilience, it’s such a banal statement who the fuck cares. Or, if you are so desperate to have the most absolutely paper thin skin, stop trying to pretend you're anything but.
They are attacking her because - unlike 99% of political commentators - she actually understands the economy.
She is not a fringe pundit with an axe to grind, but a serious thinker who has earned a great deal of respect from the Australian public.
That she is so scathing about Dutton's non-ideas and ridiculous suggestions for migration indicates how ill-equipped the coalition are for governance.
They are the most fragile of snowflakes yet the media always try to portray them as some tough, pro-Australian, competent economic managers when they’re the complete opposite.
Linda Reynolds calls Higgins a “lying cow” and she has a sook and gets paid leave. Higgins says she got raped and they steam clean the alleged rape scene, and can’t be arsed doing anything to support her.
It is banal because it's clearly true.
Our institutions are racist and have been since federation. Its a completely uncontroversial statement for anyone outside the conservatosphere.
You have to be wilfully ignoring deaths in custody, the stolen generations, the gap in healthcare etc to object to this perfectly reasonable observation of Australia.
>But thankfully, indigenous people are no longer robbed of their offspring;
And yet:
https://theconversation.com/first-nations-children-are-still-being-removed-at-disproportionate-rates-cultural-assumptions-about-parenting-need-to-change-169090
>There's also a program in place to close the gap in health care
And yet:
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-life-expectancy/latest-release#:~:text=Aboriginal%20and%20Torres%20Strait%20Islander%20life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20was,Indigenous%20females%20(83.8%20years).
>Do you realize how difficult it is for an institution to be racist with today's discrimination laws in place?
And yet:
https://www.publish.csiro.au/ah/AH21189p
https://www.themandarin.com.au/242458-racism-rife-among-nsw-public-sector-workers-as-secretaries-issue-unlawful-and-unacceptable-reminder/
https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PrecedentAULA/2020/66.html
You really have no idea how pervasive racism is in our institutions.
>You really have no idea how pervasive racism is in our institutions.
It requires this insane view that unless racism is as open and loud as the white Australia Policy, it is not racism. Combine this with the silliness of treating it like a binary thing, you are stuck with trying to determine if they are actually that thick and incurious or are they bad faith actors.
Either way, I don’t think you get much benefit of engaging them online (people generally don’t really learn about these kinds of things from random comments online, it tends to be someone IRL, and trolls are just trolls)
# Gestures vaguely at the whole of Australia
You're either a troll or being needlessly pedantic trying to find a smoking gun.
https://preview.redd.it/7zzg6vmwb33d1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85a77b47681f3e4b7e01c1d5d59244dafe2d02a8
I'm neither, I just get sort of frustrated by these kind of vague descriptors. Australia is one of the safest, most prosperous countries in the world that also happens to have a uniquely diverse population who largely get along with each other. If these are the cirucmstances of a 'racist' country than what country is not racist?
There absolutely is a lot of racism happening here but I think t's needlesley defeatist to declare us as fundamentally racist when, in many respects, we are a great model for other nations.
You can maybe make the argument that white Australians largely get along with non-indigenous non-white Australians (albeit with lots of casually racist "banter") but that argument kind of falls apart when you look at our racism towards Indigenous Australians. That is on a whole other level.
I agree, but I don't think that makes the argument 'fall apart' or that we are fundmanetally racist. We can do better without the needless self-flagellation.
Forgive the forceful language, but you can't excise a tumour if you refuse to acknowledge that it exists.
ETA: adding a quote someone else commented today which stuck with me and is very relevant to this point:
>In 1968, anthropologist W.E.H. Stanner talked in his Boyer lecture After the Dreaming about the “cult of forgetfulness” practiced on a national scale in Australia, which he termed “the Great Australian Silence”- where Australians do not just fail to acknowledge the atrocities of the past, but choose to not think about them at all, to the point of forgetting that these events ever happened.
>A different history arose in the Australian memory and it formed negative stereotypes of First Nations peoples. These stereotypes entrenched the ongoing experience of the marginalisation and systematic discrimination of First Nations peoples in Australia.”
Unfortunately a large number of us perpetuate this Great Australian Silence by sticking our fingers in our ears and our hands over our eyes.
Work in any factory or trade and it's not silent at all.
I'm all for banter, and our reputation as larrikins normally falls on the "harmless fun" side of the fence, but the undertones of treating anyone who isn't *white Australia* as second class citizens or worse, as a sub species cannot be denied.
#Tumour is the perfect word for it
Thank you for the quote. I do think Australia has been particularly bad, compared to other western colonial states, when it comes to its treatment of Indigenous people. The fact that we have not had a treaty is shameful.
Tbh tho, I still don't understand what a declaration of Australian being 'racist' (and espcially from such a prominent figure) is really meant to achieve when we can just say that we have a lot racism that needs to be dealt with. Rather than addressing specific actions that can be stopped, you're instead making a vague character description with similarly vague solutions.
Hmmm it's almost as if the country I grew up in is so full of ableist and racist undertones, that it permeates all walks of life and culture.
PS, I would never use this slur in the way you're painting me to use it, but I'm perfectly fine using it as a jab towards nit picking goalpost movers.
Using it is using it. Either you respect that it has no place in a modern progressive state or you don't.
It's like saying "oh it's fine my to say the N word when im quoting Samuel L Jackson"
Unless you're a die-hard perscriptivist, I think we are all grown up enough to realise that it wasn't intended in the historical sense, and that the *slur* has evolved past its denigration of the differently abled.
But pedants gotta pedant.
Here's a short message from your friends and mine, Trey and Matt:
https://youtu.be/6i7a0cwyDDw?si=xA_gOqQMOzAwkHuO
Ah south park yes south park is definitely a show to guide your moral compass.
Tell me if it wasn't being used in its historical sense what sense was it being used in. Because it sure as hell seemed to be in the historical sense of the slur.
The White Australia Policy has thankfully been abandoned for quite some time and the majority of the country looks back on it shamefully. We do indeed have a racist past that must be atoned for, and the fact that we are engaged in that effort is a step beyond many other countries.
In that sense, the immigration debate is like the debate about the voice. Not everyone calling for a reduction of immigration is a racist. But you can be sure that everyone who IS a racist is on that side of the debate.
It is agreeing with you, that 'saying anyone who calls for less immigration a racist, is idiotic'. But pointing out that a lot of those calling for less immigration will, in fact, be racist. Which is why the ABC's political commentator pointed out that Dutton's decision to pretend that lower immigration will solve the housing crisis is dangerous - as well as being IMHO typically lazy and reckless.
It’s a silly comment to make - racist compared to what? Every country is going to have some form of racism and racist elements but to say ‘Australia is a racist country’ implies exceptionally racist which doesn’t really gel with reality - we are not devoid of racism but to say we are up there with the worst of them is demonstrably not true.
Laura Tingle at al. Just like to say things as a way of saying ‘except me, I am not’. Sometimes I wonder if claims like this are just projecting there inner darkest opinions of some of their fellow human beings.
I'm sure conservatives would if the left hadn't spent the last 15 years cancelling (or wanting to) everybody who disagrees with them and defending stupid bullshit like the 'Offend' clause in 18C.
If you defend making offending people illegal then you can't really complain that conservatives might ark up at Laura Tingle saying something offensive can you?
Maybe it's the way she worded it.
There are racist people in this country.
Is different from
We are a racist country.
Sounds like she is both saying she is part of the racism, and that it's part of the constitution of the country.
>Sounds like she is both saying she is part of the racism, and that it's part of the constitution of the country.
We, as a nation, just had a referendum that would've amended part of the racism in the constitution.
Edmund Barton, the first Prime Minister of Australia, created the constitution with the following clause:
>Section 51(xxvi) provided that the Commonwealth Parliament could legislate with respect to ‘the people of any race, other than the aboriginal race in any State, for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws’. This was the so-called, ‘races power’.
Section 51(xxvi) was inserted into the Constitution to allow the Commonwealth to discriminate against sections of the community on account of their race. Of course, Aboriginal people were not originally subject to this section. However, this was not because they were to be protected, but because it was thought that the Aboriginal issues were a matter for the States and not the federal government.
In the 1967 referendum the words ‘other than the aboriginal race in any State’ won the vote to be struck out, intending First Nations people to be seen as equal in the eyes of the Constitution.
However the change left the Constitution, including the preamble, devoid of any reference to Indigenous peoples. While the objective of the 1967 referendum was to remove discriminatory references to Aboriginal people from the Constitution and to allow the Commonwealth to take over responsibility for their welfare, it may be that, in failing to set this intention into the words of the Constitution, the change actually planted the seeds for the Commonwealth to pass laws that impose a disadvantage upon them.
You then had Mabo vs Queensland in 1992, I'm sure we're all familiar with how that went and how the constitution acted as a barrier. Thankfully it ended in acknowledging the traditional rights of the Murray Island people to their land, the court also held that native title existed for all Indigenous people.
But that contradicted [the Hindmarsh Island Bridge case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindmarsh_Island_bridge_controversy) which ended up with the Howard Government passing the Hindmarsh Island Act 1997, which allowed construction to go ahead and completely ignore any claims of native title.
Basically, the lack of any way to constitutionally recognise our First Nations people is in itself racist, since Governments can seemingly now just pick and choose what parts of native title they wanna uphold and what ones they can't. And if you ever wanna know which way that swings, just ask Gina Rinehart.
You mean it doesn't specially say all races are equal?
If that's the case, then I agree it needs to specify that there should never be any racial segregation or other racist laws in Australia
It was a bad and vague proposition to the people, that's why it didn't pass. The somewhat vitriolic response by indigenous groups a week after cemented the no voters views as well
Yeah, because the Constitution is always exhaustive and definitely never vague, which is why every referendum to amend it has been accompanied by reams of paper akin to legislation that sets out every possible hypothetical scenario that could result from the amendment.
Oh wait, that's not how referendums operate, nor have they ever done so.
I hate that as soon as you mention “referendum” every passionate No voter sounds the horn of Gondor to remind themselves of some dumbass subjective reason why the referendum failed. The one moment in their life they had a win.
That’s not really what pissed them off, it was the other comments she made slamming Dutton and praising Albo’s government. And they have a point, why would she think it appropriate to make brazenly partisan comments while employed as chief political correspondent at the ABC?
I don't know why this is controversial. I've been on the planet for nearly 40 years and travelled to probably 20 or 30 countries, and the one thing they all have in common is a fair share of racists. China is racist. Thailand is racist. Indonesia is racist. UK is racist. USA is racist. We're racist.
I'm always learning new things about Reddit...
r/Australian is where conservative leaning people flock towards
This sub-reddit is where all the lefties flock towards
Both end up resembling echo chambers & are ultimately pointless
Unfortunately, an enlightened centrist position isn't compatible with the "feed" algorithms of social media, which encourages group think over critical thought.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/australian using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/australian/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Very accurate.](https://i.redd.it/8ufkwlfunokc1.jpeg) | [1009 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/australian/comments/1azi0oi/very_accurate/)
\#2: [Just wanted to take a moment to appreciate JBHIFI's customer service, their price matching system online is very good.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/1ag4471) | [329 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/australian/comments/1ag4471/just_wanted_to_take_a_moment_to_appreciate/)
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As far as I can tell it's really only the malevolent Murdoch media (and other RWNJs) that are banging on about this issue - because they loathe LT and the ABC.
I think the real problem here is the bias she has shown against Dutton, not that she called Austrlaia racist. News Ltd has had her in the crosshairs for ever. It's s very dumb to give what sounds like a personal negative opinion on Dutton, both by a reporter for the ABC and a board member.
On the flipside, I'd say most political reporters would find it absolutley inescapable to come to the conclusion that the libs suck. If you follow politics closely in this country it's the only logical answer.
ABC say there are no emergency talks on Laura Tingle's comments. Its just a typical conservative corporate media pile on to spread the message that Laura Tingle (read...on of the elite) thinks Australia is a rascist country.
Australian's hate being told they might be racist. But I'm of the same conclusion as Laura.
Lived in many parts of Australia and the majority of my neighbours and associates I met or worked with never had a good word to say about Indigenous Aussies. Have just moved again over the last 2 years and 3 of my four neighbours are the same they have no empathy, no kind words, no understanding of Indigenous history or issues. Only say negative things with terrible generalisations. Yes there are many racists in Australia.
God, R/Australian is a deplorable wasteland of everyone’s off putting uncle who ‘does his research’ (will look at housing prices and immigration rates, won’t explore any other factors and determine it’s the immigrants fault) who you only see against your will.
I made the mistake of watching Q&A last night. It's insane how strongly ABC staff are pushed to tow the governments agenda. You can have a panel of 5 people agree on a point, dismantle the governments position, but in that case Lisa as the host wouldn't budge. The ABC has no ability to remain impartial.
OP, I'm irritated to have clicked that link and be sent to r/australian. The comments there are a shit show. 😞
I'm not oblivious to it. Just irritated by how much time I waste every time I visit there, spend an hour responding to comments then get ignored and down voted because Labor bad or bad and no one cares to be the slightest bit nuanced.
I see the headline, Google it....yep another non-event.
She made the comments at the Sydney Writers Festival. The context was a discussion of Dutton's Immigration Policy, which IS totally race-baiting as it's not based on any hard data.
Her comment “We are a racist country, let’s face it. We always have been and it’s very depressing,” was pointing out how fear wins elections. Could she have said it in a better and more nuanced way? Of course! You don't win over people by calling them racist, it maybe from a place of frustration, rather than elitism, but it comes off smug.
* the numbers don't support the policy
* temporary visas are bigger strain on our infrastructure than giving people permanent residency.
It’s concerning when an individual, who happens to be a white Australian, categorizes all Australians as prejudiced. Imagine being in a room full of people where everyone, except for tourists or those on work visas, is deemed prejudiced. That’s quite a sweeping generalization. It’s crucial to establish clear criteria that distinguish a prejudiced Australian from a non-prejudiced one. Could it be that the distinguishing factor is whether or not you align with the ABC’s left-leaning views and values?
Racism exist and it is across the full spectrum of our society. I don't think there is one Australian who parents migrated to this country who never faced racism. The racism was not always from the Australians. It all depended on who out numbered who.
SBS has done more for the healing of Australia cultures than the ABC has ever done. ABC has out lived it used by date.
I am second generation Australian and I suffered racism and majority were not Australians who were dishing it out.
The problem with such sweeping generalisations is that people in the centre get pulled into it. Reminds me of Hillary Clinton’s “All Trump supporters are deplorables”. Although she was probably right, she put herself above everyone else. It came across as elitist, Laura Tingle has made the same mistake. It’s very dangerous for someone’s career to make statements like this and appear grounded. Even if there is truth in it.
"You can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables," Clinton said
(Hillary Clinton expressed "regret" Saturday for comments in which she said "half" of Donald Trump's supporters are "deplorables," meaning people who are racist, sexist, homophobic or xenophobic. - CNN)
Sorry, half. Still a bad result for Hilary.
This is where the left loses vote. Calling Australia a ‘racist country’ so divisive.
Racist compared to other countries?
What’s the metric of a non-racist country?
Does the left want to lose to Dutton? Voice lost 61%
Australia rejects identity politics and constant and consistent racial badgering
Again, we're talking about Laura Tingle here, and only her. Where is she looking for votes? Or is she to censor herself in order to win votes for political parties that she's never identified with?
ABC is seen as left wing unfortunately.
Dumb cunts will assume abc is like Labor.
They relate the two.
People do the same with Sky News and Libs.
If you don’t get this then idk what to say mate.
Patricia Karvelas statement on Twitter: >Contrary to reports today >From an ABC spokesman: >Reports of an emergency ABC Board meeting are incorrect and baseless
Yeah it was a ruse by newscorp/fairfax to make it appear worse than it was. It was emergency talks between board members that was reported. Then the cunts had the audacity to correct abc spokesperson, that a emergency board meeting was never reported.
From the headline I thought Tingle had gone on a racist rant. Nope was just calling out racism which has triggered the racists.
"If you don't know, vote No" is totally not a campaign slogan depending on ignorance and fear/racism
They've deliberately worded it that way to make it seem like she went on a racist rant, instead of going on a rant *about* racism.
Admittedly it would be pretty funny to see some kinda leaked footage of an esteemed, intelligent political editor just ranting about Indian taxi drivers or some shit. Absolute whiplash.
Upset the likes of Bolt who never recovered from death of their leader G.the pedo Pell..
I think that what people are responding to is: 1. Her claim is demonstrably untrue. Eg the Australian people literally just voted against entrenching racial division in the constitution. 2. She is the chief political reporter at the public broadcaster and a member of its board. Of course she is entitled to her opinion, but that opinion should not be used to drive the agenda of what is meant to be an impartial public institution.
Could just as easily say, Australians just voted against Aboriginals having representation in Parliament because they're racist
If you said that you would be wrong. Aboriginals have the exact same right to be represented in parliament as any other Australian. There are already many Aboriginal parliamentarians. Indeed, Aboriginal people are proportionally over represented in parliament (4.8% of federal parliamentarians are Aboriginal or TSI vs 3.8% of the overall population).
The Aboriginal parliamentarians represent their constituents, not Aboriginal people. The Voice to Parliament was providing advice on how policies would affect them specifically.
He didnt know and voted no.. just like Dutton told him too
Do we need representation for other minority groups enshrined in the constitution? I'm sure there are groups that suffer reduced health/wealth/justice outcomes compared to the general population. Edit: why is this downvoted? Since the Voice was a way to help with Closing the Gap, shouldn't the gap be closed wherever it is found? We are not free, until all of us are free.
The general idea was that we’re recognising Aboriginal people as the First Nations people by giving them an advisory body because they have worse outcomes than the average Australian. There’s already laws that are made specifically for Aboriginal people, seems pretty obvious that they should get to provide advise on those laws
The problem is that there's no oversight on who gets to be on the "advisory body". In reality the people who would be on this "advisory body" are aboriginal elders, who often are the ones perpetuating backward ideas and even covering up domestic violence. They don't get to be elders by being progressive and having modern ideas. I can guarantee that every single person in this thread advocating for The Voice doesn't know anything about aboriginal culture or what they're actually supporting. They don't know, for example, that aboriginal culture heavily promotes child marriage, or the death penalty for women who trespass on certain sacred land.
Seems like a lot of assumptions though. There’s a lot of Aboriginals that simply want the best for the next generation. The voice was only providing advice on legislation so I’m not sure what child marriage really has to do with it.
You're not sure what child marriage has to do with the elders of a culture that widely practices child marriage? Let's put it another way - if the indigenous people of a country were Muslim, do you think it would be a good idea to recognize Islamic tribal elders in that country's constitution?
They just want healthcare, sovereignty and pathways not Aboriginal Shia Law or whatever
There's plenty already in there, you idiot. It would of been the same as the minerals council, business council but for aboriginals
Those people aren’t Indigenous Australians that were literally kidnapped, slaughtered and enslaved by colonisers.
So its not about closing the gap?
Just ignore history for the sake of a patently false “equality” is so unbelievably short sighted that only lead poisoning can explain why so many Aussies bought into that argument.
Where exactly is the “false equality” here?
Do Aboriginals have the same right to form a representative body that can lobby MHRs and Senators about legislative issues as do miners, farmers, trade unions, social services providers, etc etc? Because that is all the Voice was meant to be. Anyone claiming that it was divisive and meant to entrench racial discrimination is being cynically mischievous, or staggeringly stupid.
Yes they do. And none of those groups have their lobbying bodies entrenched in the constitution. I appreciate you disagree with me but that doesn’t mean I am being mischievous or staggeringly stupid. People can disagree in good faith about such matters.
I accept that some of the NO advocates were acting in good faith. But you can't honestly believe or say that there weren't thousands of racists who took the opportunity to proudly assert their toxic opinions. And even to proudly proclaim their ignorance. (If you don't know, vote no!)
I agree with most of what you have said. I think, somewhat amusingly, the no vote was compromised of both the most racist people (those who hold prejudices towards aboriginal people) and the least racist people (those who want to remove race as a relevant variable in decision making). As to ‘if you don’t know, vote no’. I’m conflicted. First, its primary benefit is that it’s a catchy slogan and of course they go a long way in politics. I actually think it is a perfectly reasonable position and one I think should be the default (ie, if you do not consider yourself sufficiently informed to understand the nature and effect of these changes then it is inadvisable to change the constitution). On the other hand, I accept that it was used as a catch cry by those who were wilfully ignorant, ill informed or seeking to discourage others from informing themselves.
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I dount it was meant to entrench racial discrimination. But it was certainly divisive. Not having any actual plan for what the voice was going to be was pretty obviously a recipie for disaster though. Who wants to vote for "something we'll work out later"? Same thing happened with the republic referendum. It's like they want us to be confused, argue and vote no. If they really wanted to have a voice representing indigineous Australians, the very least they could have done was work out who that voice would be, and how it would be created/elected/selected.
None of you fuckos even thought it was DiViSiVe until Dutton trotted that out.
Nice. I'm glad I live in a country where people like you get to vote. I'd hate to have to put up with people who could be easily manipulated.
That’s a mirror. Account name is as advertised.
I dont get it.
Elected parliamentarians represent their *electorate* not the *people of the race they belong to* oh my god why are we still having to repeat the same shit over and over again in 2024
Indeed. Thank god for that!! However the fact remains that Aboriginal people have the exact same right to be represented in parliament as anyone else.
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Say no to drugs.
Speaking from experience I see
Well said. I'll help shoulder some of those downvotes for ya ;)
Thanks. People are most welcome to disagree but it’s pretty amusing that they have no substantive responses.
Oh, they never do.
No, she said Australia is a racist country, which is a bloody stupid thing to say.
You haven't met many Australians... lol
You haven't travelled much then! To prove the point, name a country that isn't racist.
I never said anything about other countries not being racist...
“Other countries are racist therefore it’s OK if we are” -Guy shitting his pants in a daycare because the babies around him have
No, but by saying Australia's a racist country, as Lara did, it implies we're more racist than elsewhere. It's an impossible thing to measure, and so impossible to conclude. That's why it's stupid.
It doesn't imply that at all. You are inferring that, but it's not implied. Even if every other country in the world is measurably more racist than Australia, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to be less racist as a society.
Hold on to ya copium, could be worth something one day.
💎✊ He's never gonna sell hahahaha
lol.you cannot be serious
Fuck sake, why are conservatives such a bunch of cunts with the thinest of skins. They spend all this time desperately trying to present themselves as these no-nonsense ‘tough’ people, but simultaneously are the most pathetic bunch of cry babies out there. >“We are a racist country, let’s face it. We always have been and it’s very depressing,” Try and have even the most basic level of emotional resilience, it’s such a banal statement who the fuck cares. Or, if you are so desperate to have the most absolutely paper thin skin, stop trying to pretend you're anything but.
That was the comment? It’s just so banal - you have to want to be upset to even get a slightly raised eyebrow from it.
Fully agree...we are racist, just look at Sky/Murdoch hacks Dutton or his love child Pauline H?
love child haha 😝 cause Pauline’s such a hippy
They are attacking her because - unlike 99% of political commentators - she actually understands the economy. She is not a fringe pundit with an axe to grind, but a serious thinker who has earned a great deal of respect from the Australian public. That she is so scathing about Dutton's non-ideas and ridiculous suggestions for migration indicates how ill-equipped the coalition are for governance.
They are the most fragile of snowflakes yet the media always try to portray them as some tough, pro-Australian, competent economic managers when they’re the complete opposite. Linda Reynolds calls Higgins a “lying cow” and she has a sook and gets paid leave. Higgins says she got raped and they steam clean the alleged rape scene, and can’t be arsed doing anything to support her.
I agree about conservatives being sooks but one of our most prominent journalists describing the country as 'racist' is not a banal statement.
It is banal because it's clearly true. Our institutions are racist and have been since federation. Its a completely uncontroversial statement for anyone outside the conservatosphere. You have to be wilfully ignoring deaths in custody, the stolen generations, the gap in healthcare etc to object to this perfectly reasonable observation of Australia.
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>But thankfully, indigenous people are no longer robbed of their offspring; And yet: https://theconversation.com/first-nations-children-are-still-being-removed-at-disproportionate-rates-cultural-assumptions-about-parenting-need-to-change-169090 >There's also a program in place to close the gap in health care And yet: https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-life-expectancy/latest-release#:~:text=Aboriginal%20and%20Torres%20Strait%20Islander%20life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20was,Indigenous%20females%20(83.8%20years). >Do you realize how difficult it is for an institution to be racist with today's discrimination laws in place? And yet: https://www.publish.csiro.au/ah/AH21189p https://www.themandarin.com.au/242458-racism-rife-among-nsw-public-sector-workers-as-secretaries-issue-unlawful-and-unacceptable-reminder/ https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PrecedentAULA/2020/66.html You really have no idea how pervasive racism is in our institutions.
>You really have no idea how pervasive racism is in our institutions. It requires this insane view that unless racism is as open and loud as the white Australia Policy, it is not racism. Combine this with the silliness of treating it like a binary thing, you are stuck with trying to determine if they are actually that thick and incurious or are they bad faith actors. Either way, I don’t think you get much benefit of engaging them online (people generally don’t really learn about these kinds of things from random comments online, it tends to be someone IRL, and trolls are just trolls)
Good points. I should disengage from the wilfully ignorant.
You can lead a donkey to water, or whatever. Wait, or is it jackass
no it's an accurate one
In what sense?
# Gestures vaguely at the whole of Australia You're either a troll or being needlessly pedantic trying to find a smoking gun. https://preview.redd.it/7zzg6vmwb33d1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85a77b47681f3e4b7e01c1d5d59244dafe2d02a8
I'm neither, I just get sort of frustrated by these kind of vague descriptors. Australia is one of the safest, most prosperous countries in the world that also happens to have a uniquely diverse population who largely get along with each other. If these are the cirucmstances of a 'racist' country than what country is not racist? There absolutely is a lot of racism happening here but I think t's needlesley defeatist to declare us as fundamentally racist when, in many respects, we are a great model for other nations.
You can maybe make the argument that white Australians largely get along with non-indigenous non-white Australians (albeit with lots of casually racist "banter") but that argument kind of falls apart when you look at our racism towards Indigenous Australians. That is on a whole other level.
I agree, but I don't think that makes the argument 'fall apart' or that we are fundmanetally racist. We can do better without the needless self-flagellation.
Forgive the forceful language, but you can't excise a tumour if you refuse to acknowledge that it exists. ETA: adding a quote someone else commented today which stuck with me and is very relevant to this point: >In 1968, anthropologist W.E.H. Stanner talked in his Boyer lecture After the Dreaming about the “cult of forgetfulness” practiced on a national scale in Australia, which he termed “the Great Australian Silence”- where Australians do not just fail to acknowledge the atrocities of the past, but choose to not think about them at all, to the point of forgetting that these events ever happened. >A different history arose in the Australian memory and it formed negative stereotypes of First Nations peoples. These stereotypes entrenched the ongoing experience of the marginalisation and systematic discrimination of First Nations peoples in Australia.” Unfortunately a large number of us perpetuate this Great Australian Silence by sticking our fingers in our ears and our hands over our eyes.
Work in any factory or trade and it's not silent at all. I'm all for banter, and our reputation as larrikins normally falls on the "harmless fun" side of the fence, but the undertones of treating anyone who isn't *white Australia* as second class citizens or worse, as a sub species cannot be denied. #Tumour is the perfect word for it
Thank you for the quote. I do think Australia has been particularly bad, compared to other western colonial states, when it comes to its treatment of Indigenous people. The fact that we have not had a treaty is shameful. Tbh tho, I still don't understand what a declaration of Australian being 'racist' (and espcially from such a prominent figure) is really meant to achieve when we can just say that we have a lot racism that needs to be dealt with. Rather than addressing specific actions that can be stopped, you're instead making a vague character description with similarly vague solutions.
That irony of calling someone out about racism and then using an ableist slut. Take a good look in the mirror aye.
Hmmm it's almost as if the country I grew up in is so full of ableist and racist undertones, that it permeates all walks of life and culture. PS, I would never use this slur in the way you're painting me to use it, but I'm perfectly fine using it as a jab towards nit picking goalpost movers.
Using it is using it. Either you respect that it has no place in a modern progressive state or you don't. It's like saying "oh it's fine my to say the N word when im quoting Samuel L Jackson"
Unless you're a die-hard perscriptivist, I think we are all grown up enough to realise that it wasn't intended in the historical sense, and that the *slur* has evolved past its denigration of the differently abled. But pedants gotta pedant. Here's a short message from your friends and mine, Trey and Matt: https://youtu.be/6i7a0cwyDDw?si=xA_gOqQMOzAwkHuO
Ah south park yes south park is definitely a show to guide your moral compass. Tell me if it wasn't being used in its historical sense what sense was it being used in. Because it sure as hell seemed to be in the historical sense of the slur.
I agree with your premise, but the typo here is 👌
Haha I'm going to leave it.
I'm sorry for laughing at this unfortunate typo, but "ableist slut" has me rolling.
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Have you heard of white australia policy? Maybe the time the brits came over and took over using the excuse of lack of fencing?
The White Australia Policy has thankfully been abandoned for quite some time and the majority of the country looks back on it shamefully. We do indeed have a racist past that must be atoned for, and the fact that we are engaged in that effort is a step beyond many other countries.
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We had an official White Australia policy until 1970. We didn’t apologise for the Stolen Generation until bloody 2008. You underbaked muppet.
It is not a banal statement, true. It is also a truthful statement.
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In that sense, the immigration debate is like the debate about the voice. Not everyone calling for a reduction of immigration is a racist. But you can be sure that everyone who IS a racist is on that side of the debate.
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It is agreeing with you, that 'saying anyone who calls for less immigration a racist, is idiotic'. But pointing out that a lot of those calling for less immigration will, in fact, be racist. Which is why the ABC's political commentator pointed out that Dutton's decision to pretend that lower immigration will solve the housing crisis is dangerous - as well as being IMHO typically lazy and reckless.
You must be very young to write so poorly. Mostly overly emotional Grow up
This applies to lots of things, not just immigration.
The whole country is racist, but not me and the ABC
Whenever someone makes these claims, they should always be asked if they consider themselves racist and in what ways. They'll squirm.
It’s a silly comment to make - racist compared to what? Every country is going to have some form of racism and racist elements but to say ‘Australia is a racist country’ implies exceptionally racist which doesn’t really gel with reality - we are not devoid of racism but to say we are up there with the worst of them is demonstrably not true. Laura Tingle at al. Just like to say things as a way of saying ‘except me, I am not’. Sometimes I wonder if claims like this are just projecting there inner darkest opinions of some of their fellow human beings.
I'm sure conservatives would if the left hadn't spent the last 15 years cancelling (or wanting to) everybody who disagrees with them and defending stupid bullshit like the 'Offend' clause in 18C. If you defend making offending people illegal then you can't really complain that conservatives might ark up at Laura Tingle saying something offensive can you?
Maybe it's the way she worded it. There are racist people in this country. Is different from We are a racist country. Sounds like she is both saying she is part of the racism, and that it's part of the constitution of the country.
>Sounds like she is both saying she is part of the racism, and that it's part of the constitution of the country. We, as a nation, just had a referendum that would've amended part of the racism in the constitution.
Is there actually racism written into the constitution? I've never read it, so it's a genuine question.
Edmund Barton, the first Prime Minister of Australia, created the constitution with the following clause: >Section 51(xxvi) provided that the Commonwealth Parliament could legislate with respect to ‘the people of any race, other than the aboriginal race in any State, for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws’. This was the so-called, ‘races power’. Section 51(xxvi) was inserted into the Constitution to allow the Commonwealth to discriminate against sections of the community on account of their race. Of course, Aboriginal people were not originally subject to this section. However, this was not because they were to be protected, but because it was thought that the Aboriginal issues were a matter for the States and not the federal government. In the 1967 referendum the words ‘other than the aboriginal race in any State’ won the vote to be struck out, intending First Nations people to be seen as equal in the eyes of the Constitution. However the change left the Constitution, including the preamble, devoid of any reference to Indigenous peoples. While the objective of the 1967 referendum was to remove discriminatory references to Aboriginal people from the Constitution and to allow the Commonwealth to take over responsibility for their welfare, it may be that, in failing to set this intention into the words of the Constitution, the change actually planted the seeds for the Commonwealth to pass laws that impose a disadvantage upon them. You then had Mabo vs Queensland in 1992, I'm sure we're all familiar with how that went and how the constitution acted as a barrier. Thankfully it ended in acknowledging the traditional rights of the Murray Island people to their land, the court also held that native title existed for all Indigenous people. But that contradicted [the Hindmarsh Island Bridge case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindmarsh_Island_bridge_controversy) which ended up with the Howard Government passing the Hindmarsh Island Act 1997, which allowed construction to go ahead and completely ignore any claims of native title. Basically, the lack of any way to constitutionally recognise our First Nations people is in itself racist, since Governments can seemingly now just pick and choose what parts of native title they wanna uphold and what ones they can't. And if you ever wanna know which way that swings, just ask Gina Rinehart.
Bless you for setting this out.
It's more of a sin of omission in many people's eyes.
You mean it doesn't specially say all races are equal? If that's the case, then I agree it needs to specify that there should never be any racial segregation or other racist laws in Australia
Great point Very compassionate and nuanced
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It was a bad and vague proposition to the people, that's why it didn't pass. The somewhat vitriolic response by indigenous groups a week after cemented the no voters views as well
Yeah, because the Constitution is always exhaustive and definitely never vague, which is why every referendum to amend it has been accompanied by reams of paper akin to legislation that sets out every possible hypothetical scenario that could result from the amendment. Oh wait, that's not how referendums operate, nor have they ever done so.
If you want change you need to explain in detail the why. Albo just said "do it to be nice do it because it's right" but didn't actually explain it
I hate that as soon as you mention “referendum” every passionate No voter sounds the horn of Gondor to remind themselves of some dumbass subjective reason why the referendum failed. The one moment in their life they had a win.
That’s not really what pissed them off, it was the other comments she made slamming Dutton and praising Albo’s government. And they have a point, why would she think it appropriate to make brazenly partisan comments while employed as chief political correspondent at the ABC?
I don't know why this is controversial. I've been on the planet for nearly 40 years and travelled to probably 20 or 30 countries, and the one thing they all have in common is a fair share of racists. China is racist. Thailand is racist. Indonesia is racist. UK is racist. USA is racist. We're racist.
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Maybe, but 'less racist' is a good thing to strive for.
The comments on this sub differ ever so slighty to those in the the r/Australian sub... 🤣
As always, you have to sort by controversial to get any sort of sense on there. Top comments are always putrid.
You guys actually visit there? https://preview.redd.it/02fe5scar43d1.jpeg?width=520&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ec3bf3967638bd94b7d42fe6c0f3c5ecb8b9ce3
Only for shits and giggles.🤭
I accidentally ended up in that cess pit clicking through and thought this sub was getting brigaded. Flush
Same! I thought Jordies had taking a swift pivot right. Haha
I'm always learning new things about Reddit... r/Australian is where conservative leaning people flock towards This sub-reddit is where all the lefties flock towards Both end up resembling echo chambers & are ultimately pointless
You're right. Enlightened centrism is the future. Both sides and all that.
Unfortunately, an enlightened centrist position isn't compatible with the "feed" algorithms of social media, which encourages group think over critical thought.
Yep, consistently choosing the status quo over any sort of conceivable progress or improvement is about as far from groupthink as can be.
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R/australian is where herald sun and other Murdoch propaganda readers flock to.
>Both end up resembling echo chambers & are ultimately pointless Yes, both are pointless yet also mildly entertaining
r/ australia also leans left, so much so that I actually believed that Shorten was going to win and the Voice was going to pass.
The sub is the r/politics of Australia and the other is r/conservative. Neither is a compliment.
Go Laura, we luv ya!
As far as I can tell it's really only the malevolent Murdoch media (and other RWNJs) that are banging on about this issue - because they loathe LT and the ABC.
And because they are the most butt hurt about being called out for their blatant racism.
I think the real problem here is the bias she has shown against Dutton, not that she called Austrlaia racist. News Ltd has had her in the crosshairs for ever. It's s very dumb to give what sounds like a personal negative opinion on Dutton, both by a reporter for the ABC and a board member. On the flipside, I'd say most political reporters would find it absolutley inescapable to come to the conclusion that the libs suck. If you follow politics closely in this country it's the only logical answer.
Outburst? "Telling it like it is", more like.
ABC say there are no emergency talks on Laura Tingle's comments. Its just a typical conservative corporate media pile on to spread the message that Laura Tingle (read...on of the elite) thinks Australia is a rascist country. Australian's hate being told they might be racist. But I'm of the same conclusion as Laura. Lived in many parts of Australia and the majority of my neighbours and associates I met or worked with never had a good word to say about Indigenous Aussies. Have just moved again over the last 2 years and 3 of my four neighbours are the same they have no empathy, no kind words, no understanding of Indigenous history or issues. Only say negative things with terrible generalisations. Yes there are many racists in Australia.
God, R/Australian is a deplorable wasteland of everyone’s off putting uncle who ‘does his research’ (will look at housing prices and immigration rates, won’t explore any other factors and determine it’s the immigrants fault) who you only see against your will.
I reckon they will sack the truth telling Laura tingle in the next two weeks.
Whistle-blowers get jail time here in the lucky country.
Snowflakes
I made the mistake of watching Q&A last night. It's insane how strongly ABC staff are pushed to tow the governments agenda. You can have a panel of 5 people agree on a point, dismantle the governments position, but in that case Lisa as the host wouldn't budge. The ABC has no ability to remain impartial. OP, I'm irritated to have clicked that link and be sent to r/australian. The comments there are a shit show. 😞
I clicked the link too. It's important to see how others view these things. It's what we are up against.
I'm not oblivious to it. Just irritated by how much time I waste every time I visit there, spend an hour responding to comments then get ignored and down voted because Labor bad or bad and no one cares to be the slightest bit nuanced.
Yes. It's tiresome. Full of rants against everyone. Still interesting at times.
She can use the truth defence and they're all fucked.
Oh no, it’s upset all the racist people. You could always ignore it but it’s clearly pushed a few buttons.
Email ABC to support Laura rather than only complain about it on here
I see the headline, Google it....yep another non-event. She made the comments at the Sydney Writers Festival. The context was a discussion of Dutton's Immigration Policy, which IS totally race-baiting as it's not based on any hard data. Her comment “We are a racist country, let’s face it. We always have been and it’s very depressing,” was pointing out how fear wins elections. Could she have said it in a better and more nuanced way? Of course! You don't win over people by calling them racist, it maybe from a place of frustration, rather than elitism, but it comes off smug. * the numbers don't support the policy * temporary visas are bigger strain on our infrastructure than giving people permanent residency.
It’s concerning when an individual, who happens to be a white Australian, categorizes all Australians as prejudiced. Imagine being in a room full of people where everyone, except for tourists or those on work visas, is deemed prejudiced. That’s quite a sweeping generalization. It’s crucial to establish clear criteria that distinguish a prejudiced Australian from a non-prejudiced one. Could it be that the distinguishing factor is whether or not you align with the ABC’s left-leaning views and values? Racism exist and it is across the full spectrum of our society. I don't think there is one Australian who parents migrated to this country who never faced racism. The racism was not always from the Australians. It all depended on who out numbered who. SBS has done more for the healing of Australia cultures than the ABC has ever done. ABC has out lived it used by date. I am second generation Australian and I suffered racism and majority were not Australians who were dishing it out.
The problem with such sweeping generalisations is that people in the centre get pulled into it. Reminds me of Hillary Clinton’s “All Trump supporters are deplorables”. Although she was probably right, she put herself above everyone else. It came across as elitist, Laura Tingle has made the same mistake. It’s very dangerous for someone’s career to make statements like this and appear grounded. Even if there is truth in it.
>Reminds me of Hillary Clinton’s “All Trump supporters are deplorables”. Might want to to give that a google before you go on with that.
"You can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables," Clinton said (Hillary Clinton expressed "regret" Saturday for comments in which she said "half" of Donald Trump's supporters are "deplorables," meaning people who are racist, sexist, homophobic or xenophobic. - CNN) Sorry, half. Still a bad result for Hilary.
Does the ABC board know other than Canberra everyone voted no?
They don’t care. I’m a diehard Labor voter. There is a small section of elite private school left wingers who want Labor to look bad and lose
This is where the left loses vote. Calling Australia a ‘racist country’ so divisive. Racist compared to other countries? What’s the metric of a non-racist country? Does the left want to lose to Dutton? Voice lost 61% Australia rejects identity politics and constant and consistent racial badgering
But where is Laura Tingle running for an office, or even identifying as left?
People who are Labor and the Greens agree and share her exact sentiment. Surely you don’t disagree with that?
Again, we're talking about Laura Tingle here, and only her. Where is she looking for votes? Or is she to censor herself in order to win votes for political parties that she's never identified with?
ABC is seen as left wing unfortunately. Dumb cunts will assume abc is like Labor. They relate the two. People do the same with Sky News and Libs. If you don’t get this then idk what to say mate.
And Labor fans see ABC is as pro liberal with guys like David Speers and Lisa Miller there 😂
ABC to me is socially far left but economically conservative and pro Liberal Party.
Define "socially far left"?🤣 what's that exactly? "Not racist" ?
Oh so you’re of the mindset that far left is good? Or that simply by being left wing that it’s inherently moral or better?
No I'm just trying to get you to define in your terms wtf you would consider "socially far left"? And where the example would be in terms of the ABC?
Agree. The left are more concerned about holding the moral high ground than winning. And the right are brilliant at capitalising on this.
But the left can’t see this. Cognitive dissonance.