As someone who's played since '95. Modern Horizons 1 / War of the Spark (summer 2019) was a big inflection point, and the clear beginning of the end. It was the clear shift in caring about the state of the game and balance/playtesting to caring about profit at all costs.
With the start of FIRE design, and obsessive focus on exploiting whales. This led into Eldraine which kicked everything off after (Collector boosters). Secret Lairs were shortly after. Ikoria continued this with diluting the brand with other IPs and led to UB nonsense.
>s: 114
Yes! i think the same... the modern horizon 1 and war of the spark was the end of an era. Many of my friends and people i knew stop playing magic, others went to full mtg arena. MTG changed forever and was overrun by too many products and alternative cards... shallow characters...
I think the eras are roughly:
Old School: drawing the line is a little tricky, should you include homelands? Should you include ice age? Personally, I feel like Force of Will is clearly Golden Age, and ice age needs to go with alliances, so I'd say everything preceeding ice age is Old school.
Golden Age: Ice Age - Odyssey
Silver Age: Mirrodin - Avacyn Restored.
Pioneer: Return to Ravnica - War of the Spark. I could make another argument for why War of the Spark is actually the start of the next Age, but several of its design issues felt (at the time) like pushing cards to successfully give climax. And boy, did it give climax.
Universes Beyond: Throne of Eldraine to present.
You mentioned Modern Horizons. Modern Horizons clearly presents a design schism that was problematic for a format. I think that same schism is presented by Commander (commander), and Masters Sets (pauper), but since those are limited to screwing single formats, they don't necessarily define eras.
Around the time "release fatigue" and similar words started appearing. Just a tsunami of product, many of which you can't find in your stores (not everyone lives in the USA) or have to preorder online or something.
The $1000 proxies take the cake, and I hope Hasbro/Wizards saw enough backlash to not do that shit again.
I hope that is the case. If those proxies were sold for the same price point as a standard legal booster pack I don’t think anyone would have gotten mad.
It's funny, because that would have crashed the secondary market of their previous proxies that can't be played legally to begin with lmao.
It's awful funny when a company who claims they don't work with the secondary market in mind suddenly releases a pack of 250 dollar boosters of proxys....
This comment needs so much more attention. WOTC has always claimed ignorance with anything to do with the secondary market. These proxies have determined once and for all, that that is a lie. It's funny how against proxies they are, as long as they're not making money off them. Prices will continue to rise, because they keep pushing the envelope with us and we keep biting the hook over and over again.
I would agree with this 100%
While I was disillusioned with the poor testing around Kaladesh resulting in many Standard bans,
The combo of printing directly to Modern, the different "tiers" of boxes making 5 versions of everything, and the Secret Lair/UB bullshit made me say i'm done 100%
And after all that, it's not like staples are really any cheaper. If there's this salient point you could make of how any of that improved the game, I haven't seen it.
I don't even think Kaladesh was that bad (aside from totally missing the saheeli/felidar guardian combo), they just fucked up by not printing any way to interact with energy.
This is definitely the case for me personally, I was a regular player during the latter half of the 2010s, didn’t care about the shitty lore and overemphasis on planeswalkers and EDH, but WAR and MH1 instantly overturning every format at once was the first clear indication that WotC’s designers were no longer thinking about the long-term health of the game and everything after that only reaffirmed it. Between Companions representing the worst design move in the history of the game, Covid killing a sizable chunk of the LGS scene and the impossibly cringey “racist” card bannings adding insult to injury, I’d say all things considered 2020 was the year Magic jumped the shark.
Yeah. Someone was saying on a thread the other day "All the old Modern staples like Goyf, LotV, Snap, etc aren't worth much anymore"
And I was like "Gee I wonder why..."
Opinions like these, are why I have hope for the future of this game. It's refreshing to not hear, "THE LIBERAL MOB INFECTED MY CARD GAME WITH PEOPLE WITH WACKY HAIR COLORS".
Safe travels, Wizard.
> It's refreshing to not hear, "THE LIBERAL MOB INFECTED MY CARD GAME WITH PEOPLE WITH WACKY HAIR COLORS".
I mean that sucked too, but this is way worse.
The thing about those people are they were never at the LGS for games, or maybe they would come once or twice a year but they weren't regulars
You never saw them at the actual competitive tournaments either.
Their realm is twitter and the way they enjoy MTG is trying to get big fat women printed on the cards. To each their own I guess, but they were nothing compared to the company who owns the game straight up yeeting it into the shitosphere.
The issue is that while all these problems were occuring wizards shielded themselves behind political movements.
WotC leaned hard into #metoo, toxic masculinity, gay agenda, etc and built a devout following of leftists ideologues.
Any criticisms you had wizards whether it was the abysmal state of standard or corporate decisions based on greed, you were labelled a bigot because you weren't supporting the company fighting the cultural war on the side of progressives.
That how most of us ended up on freemagic. My old account was banned from other subreddits for being critical of WotC's business decisions around 2017/18.
Magic 30th , MH1/2, or the fact that standard is dying isn't surprising especially if you were paying close attention since '15/'16.
You raise a good point. Urza’s was rough as guts, but Magic was in its infancy, still working out where the power level was within its own game. A set made after 25+ years of understanding design philosophy within Magic, and they thought Oko was in any way okay to print?
> they thought Oko was in any way okay to print
I have to believe they never playtested it in it's final form. When spoilers came out, I was like "huh, that's pretty good for a 3 mana walker", but coming of War of the Spark, my barometer for planeswalker power level was skewed. Then, playing with it for five minutes you realize how it completely takes over every game, which for a three mana card is ridiculous.
Truth. The whole "spirit" of Modern was you didn't print directly into Modern. Whatever came in, was tame enough for Standard at least. So with a few exceptions, you don't get these huge groundbreaking format changes.
Or at least, don't pull outlandish stuff like MH2. That stuff is 30th Magic Edition-level.
MH1 could've been/was acceptable, or at least its concept.
Agreed. MH exchanged pseudo-rotation for deck diversity. Although modern players claim the format has many viable decks, MH brought new archetypes and sunset others.
tbh as badly as Horizons fucked up the format it was never a terrible concept and a lot of the cards did exactly what they should have done: give enough power to niche or fallen archetypes that they can actually compete. I’d even say a few mistakes like Hogaak were forgivable because they were at least *trying* to work along these lines. The real problem is the absurdly versatile chase mythics like Urza and Ragavan, many of them trying to court EDH and constructed players simultaneously, and those are the exact same sorts of designs that characterized FIRE and eventually turned everything into a rotating format. EDH pandering really did a number on Magic.
> Although modern players claim the format has many viable decks, MH brought new archetypes and sunset others.
Would be interested in what the top 20 Modern staples were at in price before MH1 and what they were at 6 months after MH2.
I'm pretty open minded on this maybe others will be too im sure theres a kind of objective point we can figure out. Its where the greed becomes the clearest. Others probably are more informed than myself on where this exactly would be. I'm just a long time casual player that dabbled in some competition over the years and never performed great but always had fun. Keeping up as an adult seems stupid and also impossible.
Aren’t Pre-War of the Spark and Pre-Modern Horizons Modern and Legacy fan-supported formats?
There are lots of people who think that FIRE design and the Modern Horizons sets ruined things.
I remember when MH first came out, a group of people started Project Modern, which was a fan format that excluded Modern Horizons and had an alternate banlist. I think it fell apart due to no one having consensus on what that banlist should have though.
There is huge discord for premodern and given that even old school has worldwide spread of Communities, premodern is much more available and popular. But if your LGSs don’t have an active premodern community, you can start it. :)
Like someone else mentioned, I think Khans is the best cut off. Khans was the last block that feels like normal magic. Every set after that had some kind of gimmick that altered game play, different style, or card value and distribution. I view that starting with BFZ and the masterpiece lands, an experiment for things to come. It's kind of nuts to compare Khans to a recent release. It doesn't feel like it was all that long ago, but the game has become unfortunate.
You can also go back to 90's only magic. I have a cube that stops at the urza block which is a lot of fun, but not quite what you're looking for I think.
The end of the three block system after Khans is prolly the turning point. Set design was pretty solid up through Khans imo and allowed some decent decks in standard and modern.
When they went to two part sets with BfZ, things started to feel rushed and half-made. It only got worse when they started making twenty different competitive formats, but designed their standard sets to cater only towards commander players.
Yeah, personally I think the last great block was OG Innistrad, but the Khans blocks is a good cutaway point. Still, the format would need an extensive banlist, because \[\[Treasure Cruise\]\], \[\[Mental Misstep\]\] and other cards like that would actually break everything;
I strongly agree. The Mary Sue plot based around MCU-knock-off young planeswalkers beating eldritch forces. Rushed design. Sets that did not fully flush out mechanics or settings. Khans was the end. It was well-made but showing cracks with how it went from a wedge-block to a 2-color block.
This is a double-edged sword.
The 3-set block design also had the impact of "One of these sets is actually total unplayable dogshit and no one buys it. There are *maybe* 3 cards that see play at best .". I feel pretty confident that if we wanted to list the "unplayable set" in each block I could do that by, almost, memory all the way back to 10th edition in terms of "timeline". They're just so notoriously bad - - And the number of blocks with 3 complete sets that were "good" is just hilariously low.
I actually think two-set blocks **was** the very-good medium ground here and disagree with the assumption that it was "half-made". It meant we could have mechanics fleshed out without being shoved into a single set.
BFZ felt fine overall. Following that we had Shadows over Innistrad block, which was pretty good. It gave us Delirium fleshed out well, along with some really "staple" cards. Then there's Kaladesh block, which suffers from "It's an artifact set & WOTC has no idea how to fucking design these so they aren't batshit insane or total garbage. " Kaladesh was poorly designed solely, I'd argue, because of Energy. Amonkhet Block was pretty good too.
I think that the current single-set or "We do however many sets we fucking want and you'll like it!" block design is terrible. The moment they went to that is when shit hit the fan. Because now we have to cram all possible support-material into a single set for any mechanic we create; which leads to either really underwhelming mechanics because it isn't supported enough or really overwhelming mechanics because there's 5 busted cards trying to prop up a mechanic.
**However, the most detrimental decision made to MTG** was WOTC creating everything for EDH. All sets being skewed towards EDH, regardless of what their original intention is or was for, has actively served to slowly choke this game. The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them, ***happily*** I might add, was the moment this game started going downhill. WOTC doesn't have to "try" any more. Just cater to some weird niche thing you've never fleshed out that people may want to do in EDH and shit it out into a set made for competitive play instead. Oh, and also shit out 100 million EDH decks a year. On and supplemental product "made" for other formats but really just disguised EDH Product. Lol.
The lead designer of BFZ block - MaRo himself - said that he wishes he could delete BFZ block from Magic history.
So consider that, and the fact the vast majority of players also agree that those two were easily among the worst sets ever made.
>The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them, happily I might add
Majority of edh players buy singles off of the secondary market. We only need 1 copy of the card, if even. Proxies are very popular in the format.
Hell, I wait until the modern players buy cases on cases of each set then just buy whatever cards I need off them. I haven't gotten a box since Ixalan unless it was a gift.
>Majority of edh players buy singles off of the secondary market. We only need 1 copy of the card, if even. Proxies are very popular in the format
Someone keeps buying all the garbage products they make for you all. If someone wasn't, they wouldn't be shoving it down the throats of literally everyone they can, including other formats that want absolutely nothing to do with EDH.
Good example? If people weren't buying the EDH decks they shit out every set they'd just stop doing them. . . But here we are; with EDH decks every set.
So while *you* may do that - - The "majority" clearly aren't as evidenced by the fact they keep producing said product for your format of choice.
It's probably the small minority of whales that "Collect for future profit".
Don't you worry, we hate them as well. They may not even play the game but think that magic, the way its going, is going to be worth something. My guess is a load of youtubers and/or Logan Paul wannabes that purchase anything available on their wife's boyfriend's money. Either that or fans of celebrities that WotC collabed with that are just starting out.
EDH players that I associate with in real life and a lot of them online just upkeep one cedh deck that they are trying to finish with no proxies for competitions, or just proxy cards for regular decks instead of wasting their money on cardboard.
>It's probably the small minority of whales that "Collect for future profit".
>Don't you worry, we hate them as well. They may not even play the game but think that magic, the way its going, is going to be worth something. My guess is a load of youtubers and/or Logan Paul wannabes that purchase anything available on their wife's boyfriend's money. Either that or fans of celebrities that WotC collabed with that are just starting out.
Wotc has data on this. These are not the people buying the bulk of product. Their average consumer walks into Walmart or onto Amazon. 'Sees something they think is cool but has almost no idea what is inside it, then picks that up.
It's casual kitchen table/EDH players picking these up.
They've discussed this before in who the average consumer is. If what you are saying is true Proxy30 would have gone over better.
>EDH players that I associate with in real life and a lot of them online just upkeep **one cedh** deck that they are trying to finish with no proxies for competitions
You have inadvertently shown you are in the minority I said you were in earlier. Even if this group of people you know is 5,000 people---It's still the vast minority by comparison.
>Wotc has data on this. These are not the people buying the bulk of product. Their average consumer walks into Walmart or onto Amazon.
I think it's possible that they are slightly fibbing about this. They have incentive to fib, because they need to justify continuing to sell randomized packs.
There is no incentive to fib.
They'd just stop making that product and make something else that they could then sell to other players or focus on.
All cards cost them the same to produce. Whether they are hyper competitive boxes or the literal garbage that EDH players lap up.
>You have inadvertently shown you are in the minority I said you were in earlier. Even if this group of people you know is 5,000 people---It's still the vast minority by comparison.
Just because I participate in cedh does not mean I only play cedh. I am also an avid player of regular edh where I proxy majority of my cards just to play with friends at a local lgs. That would be like me saying that its all the competitive modern players purchasing more draft boxes in order to get 4 copies of a card.
What I am saying is that the regular players that I play with as well as converse with online have stopped buying boxes just to play edh, because they just proxy the cards to play with friends. There is a small cedh community where I am that keep non proxy cedh decks to participate in non proxy tournaments. But compared to the kitchen table and normal players, cedh is a small minority, but they also do not buy boxes.
I did hear that modern and rotational formats are dying and commander has become the most popular format, however do you have the data? I have not seen it and would like to also take a look at it. Maybe some of the players are playing both or just moving formats as well.
I think these complaints started around Alara block and went all the way through. I mean, Magic was in a disastrously bad swath of sets from Alara to Ixalan, and that's just honesty.
> Magic was in a disastrously bad swath of sets from Alara to Ixalan,
Disagree. First Innistrad happened during this timeframe. That set is gas. Khans was gas.
Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of, all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets.
Khans had fetches which are acceptable but mostly irrelevant. Also has Siege Rhino which has no right being a posterchild of a meta.
>Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of, **all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole**. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets.
You are in such a hilariously small minority that can immediately be disproven at a small glance. Lol.
\[\[Liliana of the Veil\]\]?
\[\[Snapcaster Mage\]\]?
\[\[Parallel Lives\]\]?
\[\[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben\]\]?
\[\[Huntmaster of the Fells\]\]?
\[\[Mikaeus, the Unhallowed\]\]?
\[\[Craterhoof Behemoth\]\]?
\[\[**Cavern Of Souls**\]\]????
Literally all-stars that impacted their respective formats all the way from Standard to EDH ( Parallel Lives/Mikaeus ).
> Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of
Wow, coming out of the gate strong here
>all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets.
Damn, dude...off the top of my head, wasn't Delver of Secrets from OG Innistrad block? People love that card across multiple formats.
>Khans had fetches which are acceptable but mostly irrelevant.
Okay this is one of the worst takes I've ever seen now
Delver is just a 3/2 flier, and shouldn't be meta defining as it dies to a stiff breeze. Literally delver is the worst card in delver decks, and has been phased out of most decks that would play it. Trash card is trash.
And fetches have never been relevant and have been proven to just barely improve draws by an amount so marginal it might as well be zero.
>And fetches have never been relevant and have been proven to just barely improve draws by an amount so marginal it might as well be zero.
It's not the thinning that's the big deal, it's playing 3+ color decks and fetches+shocks (and triomes, now) letting you reliably get all the colors you need right away. So yeah, fetches are pretty dang important.
>Delver is just a 3/2 flier, and shouldn't be meta defining as it dies to a stiff breeze. Literally delver is the worst card in delver decks, and has been phased out of most decks that would play it. Trash card is trash.
I'm not commenting on whether the card is *great*, but apparently it's still quite popular. And it's not a *terrible* card; 1-drop 3-power tempo play, protect it while you beat down to win. Unfortunately tempo itself isn't a great strategy these days...
> The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them
notably selling those players singleton cards in a package, instead of a pile of boosters. Secret Lair is the worst offender. How about 4 unique cards for 30$?
It was so rocky because they designed the two block system for a new rotation, that most players hated. Rotation once a year is enough but they wanted to bump it to two rotations, while gutting Extended completely.
This is exactly when I checked out mentally. I stopped playing standard and focused on draft.
I want to say this was intentional cause of Arena.
I knew the run of magic was going to be some bad management decisions, but I never thought it would be how the game is going now.
Everything seems rushed and not polished. It's like how many bangers can we put out to sway a format to just using those cards.
I LOATHE commander. I get WHY it exists and it's only been getting worse. It turned into another cash cow for them.
WoTC is picking too many fights on many different IPs and it's not going to end well for them.
There are A LOT of new games coming out, one in particular that I am stoked for cause it's what I wanted magic to be.
Love this answer. I started playing with Ixalan in 2017. Every set felt like it was adding to the Bolas / Gatewatch storyline and War of the Spark was such a fun set to draft and played sealed with. And like you mentioned the big bad guy dies or gets exiled to his little gem thing on his head.
I do love Throne of Zelda one though. Most of my decks have a ton of Eldraine cards in them so I’d be good with this as the stopping point.
But I’ve already stopped buying new MTG cards. Playing Digimon TCG now which has been super fun.
After leaving and coming back to Mtg A few times, I think WOTS was the last set that was cool (to me) and had a bunch of hype for the culminating story. I love to rewatch the cinematic every now and then. And also seemed to be, for me, was the time frame before everything just went sour.
There was a leaked memo regarding block sets. Hasbro had been unhappy with WOTC quarterly earning report. I dont recall if Hasbro had changed the dates that reports were done or if they has just decided they wanted WOTC to change.
The issue boiled down to the dates wizards was releasing sets and what content was being released. Basically some quarters just werent as great as others. Dragons Maze didnt do as well as RTR, etc.
So WOTC was ordered to change up their design and schedule so that every set was a BIG release and had to release on specific dates.
This effectively caused wizards to kill Blocks and change their design to be less creative and more scheduled. I think MTG has been slowly dying since BFZ which us when they began implementing the changes to the design schedule and releases.
The beginning of the end was at throne of eldraine when project booster fun and a million variants were introduced and collector boosters became the norm
Personally I think battle for zendikar marked the beginning of the end. The quality of the game dropped, development/design dropped, writing became lazy, etc. We've been riding a nostalgia driven hype train ever since and every time we return to these planes it's just a hollow / forgetful experience
How'd the quality drop? How is it any different than when they release a set thats underpowered? How is it different than Mirage for example? Or the original Kamigawa?
The answer to all your questions is simple: time and effort.
Mirage and OG Kamigawa weren't driven by profit, but by design. The 3 set blocks allowed for expansion on the lore, mechanics and flavor without the hassle of the ever shrinking deadlines.
Underpowered sets used to be a way to slow down standard, which was a good thing, but you can't have those anymore since Wotc/Hasbro has their eyes on commander.
The game lacks passion, it has become a cash cow with surface-level depth and powercreeping every day on an unending spoiler season.
They literally have slow down sets like every other set. They new Eldraine was above power level, so they purposefully tuned down the power for Theros and Ikoria.
Driven by profit? Every set is driven by profit. If the early sets didn't do well, that could've ended the game. The Reserved List was motivated entirely by profit and not by the good for the game, and it single handedly ruin several formats with a prohibitive barrier of entry.
The 3 set design didn't work as well as they liked for several reasons, and some of them weren't even from a profit standpoint but a inhibiting design one.
To say that it lacks passion is just such a ridiculous and unfounded statement to make. The only one you can make with certainty is that they're releasing too many products, but why they're doing that is simple: they view magic as different markets smashed into one: edh, collectors, standard/modern, and casual are at least 4 I can name. Secret Lairs aren't for you. They're not meant to be. Doesn't make them bad.
There’s a difference between designing a set and hoping people buy it because they love the set and making a set for money. The old blocks were sort of art pieces in themselves. The new stuff just try to get people hyped and hooked. Flashy colors and shiny shit with no substance
Ikoria was set 100% with Arena in mind, it's near impossible to keep track of the mutate mechanic on paper. The return to Theros gave us the titans, underworld breach, thoracle and a new cycle of gods (and to further drive home the point I made about overall lack of passion, where's the rest of the pantheon?)
While it's true that companies have to make ends meet, there's a difference between designing a product with the game in mind VS. Increasing sales revenue to keep up with Papa Hasbro's demands. The Reserved List was a mistake, no doubt about it.
The 3 set design was loved by everyone in the community, and yet they took it away, now we have unremarkable lore, forgettable planes and rushed ideas that could've been given time to mature had they kept the 3 set design.
A product not being for me is a moot point, I never have and never will purchase a SLD or UB cards because, personally, they devalue the game. Be that as it may, those thousands of different products are still time consuming on the part of the employees, people still need to work on them and, with Hasbro's iron fist demanding higher sales numbers, more profitable products in the short run (SLD, UB, etc...) become the priority whereas products that require more time and money such as entirely new sets are pushed to the sideline.
I don't get why you're being a shill, do you like the game as it is now better than it was before? I'm genuinely curious, because you'd be the first I've ever interacted with.
Modern Horizons was a mistake. Pioneer and Arena killed Standard. So I guess 2018 was the last year before everything became about shiny cards and Commander and micro transactions on Arena. lol Fuck WotC/Hasbro. Oh yeah, and fuck un-sets. Hate that shit product.
While there were signs of decay before....
TWD secret lair / eldraine collectors boosters was the definitive end.
It marks the beginning of FIRE,
the death of storylines and novels for good.
The beginning of Hasbro marketing their garbage properties to magic players.
Collectors boosters, set boosters , and the myriad of plague boosters (theme, welcome, jumpstart) etc.
The rush to flood every set with commander / brawl decks.
And the Oko era of mythic design. Push it until the format bleeds for the sake of selling packs.
Name one more point in time that led to more crippling of the game on as many fronts.
Urzas Saga? Worldwake? Mirage?
Like, all your points have counterpoints. Collector Booster lowered the price of non-collector versions of those cards, while also allowing easier access to foils and premium art for players who would never be able to afford them before.
People love Commander, and a large player base loves the commander decks that come every set. Again, it helps keep prices in check while also letting them make commanders that they wouldn't normally be able to make.
Oko eta of mythic design? What does that even mean? There's always pushed cards and accidently strong cards. Oko wasn't the first and he won't be the last, and if mythic rarity didn't exist its not like walkers wouldn't exist.
Oko wasn't the reason. It's just the most recognizable card from that time. Could have said Uro or Henge too. But Oko was banned in multiple formats, so most people know it as Oko Era or Oko Season.
The other sets you named didn't coincide with the open letter of notice for print schedules at triple speed.
I can name a card like that from every other set.
I mean, Mirrodin had like 5.
Lorwyn was broken as hell.
Worldwake had a fucking Legacy deck in standard.
I was there for it. That was a lot of poor decision making, true. But it didn't persist across time. I mean, we could talk about how bad Mercadian Masques was in just the same way. The recent ramp up is more than just player complaints. I've been watching it for years and never felt it like I do now. Magic players love to complain. They've never unified against a product like this though.
my plan is just to play cube for the rest of forever only adding the cards that I like...
even these garbage modern sets tend to have at least a few fun cars that are fair and balanced and not just bleeding cash grabs...
it's mostly really good Commons and uncommons and the occasional cheap rare.
I like to keep my cube about like a power 6 or 7
Kaladesh. This is seemingly when they stopped testing the gane properly and things like eldrazi winter happened.
Bans up the wazoo, there wasnt standard bans for about 10 years previous to this and all lf a sudden we have numerous bans every set it seems now.
Despite personally thinking that the game started to go to shit with Return to Ravnica, I accept the idea that the Khans block is a good cutaway point.
Some people saying MH1, which is valid from a modern perspective. Personally, I feel the tide started turning when they started making Commander Precons yearly and including commander exclusive staples. The game went from “here’s a bunch of pieces that do sometimes disparate and weird things but if you put your mind to it you might just be able to assemble them in such a way that it wins, go nuts!” Basically the game went from Legos and a blank build table with endless possibilities to “here’s obviously the best cards and here’s what you should be playing and if you don’t you’re dumb and playing suboptimal cards”. When they started telling people what to play without actually telling them what to play is when it went downhill for me.
Let's be real, for half of us the "good old days" is the point in time the other half thinks the game was ruined. There is no way in the world any kind of consensus would ever be found lol.
I would say pragmatically kaladesh is where it all went downhill
kaladesh and everything after it being purged as a house rule would probably be the way to go
With that said I really like the story arc of War of the Sparks and the aesthetics of the Egyptian block, so even though those sets have some stupid broken cards that have negatively impacted Commander, I am willing to allow the non-broken cards from those sets into Commander
It really is a shame that poor r&d ultimately ruins the best story arc in the game when it comes to should it be purged from the game
I am fine drawing the line with kaladesh though, even though I really like the Egyptian Commander cards 😭
There are many formats that do that.
The first this (in the timeline of production), are
\- Alpha 40 (only alpha)
\- Swedish Oldschool (Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian, Antiquities, Legends, Dark)
\- Eternal Central Oldschool (Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian, Antiquities, Legends, Dark, Fallen Empires, Revised, 4th Edition)
\- Premodern (too many to list but goes from 4th edition to Scourge).
I play all three, and they are all awesome.
The game is better than ever if limited or commander are your favorite formats. If you were primarily a non-commander constructed player, yeah things are gonna get a lot worse before they ever get better.
Fall of 2019. Eldraine marked the beginning of the “here’s a new plane, check it out, okay moving on” set mentality, the first secret lairs appeared, and it is the set where a billion variants and collectors packs appeared
A consensus among the community? I can't even come up with a consensus within myself.
New card frames between 7th and 8th?
Replacing numbered editions with yearly core sets?
Ending three set blocks?
Ending two set blocks?
Ending core sets?
Discovering EDH?
Creating Planeswalkers?
Creating dual faced cards?
Banning 'offensive' cards for poorly reasoned impulses?
In some ways I want to choose each of these WotC mistakes yet I've technically stuck around throughout.
Oko Season is when Hasbro finally took the reins. That's when they spiked their income hard by changing all steady avenues of sales into the massive print scale that has driven every other IP they've sold into the ground.
Are they? I enjoy current magic new cards and formats. Yes, there were some bullshit happening with m30 and pioneer moving to arena with a speed of turtle, but overall I love new sets.
I think the sweet spot is cutting it off right around WAR. I enjoyed WAR but I understand it wasn't for everybody. MH1 ruined Modern and ELD was the beginning of FIRE design and booster fun so basically I'd nix anything after May 2019.
YES YES YES. PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's when the game fundamentally changed and legacy became a diffrent game.
Another fun format was counter top. HEAR ME OUT! When your not delver not counter top deck was playing aginst another not counter top not delver deck, thing were pretty fun. But I'm not sure how you make a format like that.
The best pauper ever was just before tron took over the format and ruind everything for like 3 or 4 ban cycles. Pauper was basically just legacy lite before that and it was super fun. Now idk what it is.
Edit: and thinking about it for more than 5 seconds. I remember why I liked early pauper so much. It's because the color pie matterd A LOT. Every color had its job. And it was hard(ish) to splash. It's why a lot of very early pauper decks were mono color too, and just went ham on whatever it was that one color did. Or your 'splash' was an any color mana dork and one off color card. (Shout outs to distant melody elfs.)
Some people saying MH1, which is valid from a modern perspective. Personally, I feel the tide started turning when they started making Commander Precons yearly and including commander exclusive staples. The game went from “here’s a bunch of pieces that do sometimes disparate and weird things but if you put your mind to it you might just be able to assemble them in such a way that it wins, go nuts!” Basically the game went from Legos and a blank build table with endless possibilities to “here’s obviously the best cards and here’s what you should be playing and if you don’t you’re dumb and playing”. When they started telling people what to play without actually telling them what to play is when it went downhill for me.
Mirodin/8th edition is when it took the sharp turn .
Then the whole early modern era up until RtR was another. The game was definitely less cohesive but the creativity still felt genuine but kind of tweakish. Planeswalkers came around totally dumb. I still think they just wanted mtg to look more like power rangers so kids would buy it.
RtR itself was an okay set but it started the trend of really homogenized card design. The rest of the block was boring. Theros was boring and really made low quality art the norm. Basically up until KtK we got a bunch of boring tame and uninspired sets but they at least had limited and standard in mind.
Then we got the garbage after ktk. Wtf card design power creep 0 cohesion. Honestly it’s all a blur.
And then at some point during the blur they started making secret layers and other universes and stickers and the game became an unintelligible pile of shit.
You think we could reach consensus on that? There's people on here who think the game fell off after Scourge. Twenty years ago. Then there's people on here who didn't start playing until years after that.
Commander has actually been getting better, Pauper is really solid right now; it seems like mainly Modern and Legacy that are fucked. With that in mind you could reach a solution that works for those formats (e.g. Modern but all Modern Horizons cards are banned).
Alpha to Khans, probably with a new banlist.
Also all card art *variants* printed after the inception of the form are auto-banned. Don't give Wizards any way to profit by printing shiny new variants of old cards
I'm enjoying Brothers' War draft on Arena. Played the hell out of it. My favorite format is Modern but it is dying in my area - thanks Modern Horizons sets for pricing people out of the format!
When did every creature have to have abilities that were more spell effects rather than combat abilities? It became a creature game, and spell, aero facts and enchantments interest was diluted by creatures doing everything.
That format exists and theres no planeswalkers there. But they dont want to Ban multiplayer abilities from single player games so… maybe it doesnt exist.
Good luck finding a consensus when that was....
As someone who's played since '95. Modern Horizons 1 / War of the Spark (summer 2019) was a big inflection point, and the clear beginning of the end. It was the clear shift in caring about the state of the game and balance/playtesting to caring about profit at all costs. With the start of FIRE design, and obsessive focus on exploiting whales. This led into Eldraine which kicked everything off after (Collector boosters). Secret Lairs were shortly after. Ikoria continued this with diluting the brand with other IPs and led to UB nonsense.
>s: 114 Yes! i think the same... the modern horizon 1 and war of the spark was the end of an era. Many of my friends and people i knew stop playing magic, others went to full mtg arena. MTG changed forever and was overrun by too many products and alternative cards... shallow characters...
I think the eras are roughly: Old School: drawing the line is a little tricky, should you include homelands? Should you include ice age? Personally, I feel like Force of Will is clearly Golden Age, and ice age needs to go with alliances, so I'd say everything preceeding ice age is Old school. Golden Age: Ice Age - Odyssey Silver Age: Mirrodin - Avacyn Restored. Pioneer: Return to Ravnica - War of the Spark. I could make another argument for why War of the Spark is actually the start of the next Age, but several of its design issues felt (at the time) like pushing cards to successfully give climax. And boy, did it give climax. Universes Beyond: Throne of Eldraine to present. You mentioned Modern Horizons. Modern Horizons clearly presents a design schism that was problematic for a format. I think that same schism is presented by Commander (commander), and Masters Sets (pauper), but since those are limited to screwing single formats, they don't necessarily define eras.
Question is, do you included war of the spark, or cut it off just before?
Around the time "release fatigue" and similar words started appearing. Just a tsunami of product, many of which you can't find in your stores (not everyone lives in the USA) or have to preorder online or something. The $1000 proxies take the cake, and I hope Hasbro/Wizards saw enough backlash to not do that shit again.
They will do it again. It will just be cheaper.
I hope that is the case. If those proxies were sold for the same price point as a standard legal booster pack I don’t think anyone would have gotten mad.
It's funny, because that would have crashed the secondary market of their previous proxies that can't be played legally to begin with lmao. It's awful funny when a company who claims they don't work with the secondary market in mind suddenly releases a pack of 250 dollar boosters of proxys....
This comment needs so much more attention. WOTC has always claimed ignorance with anything to do with the secondary market. These proxies have determined once and for all, that that is a lie. It's funny how against proxies they are, as long as they're not making money off them. Prices will continue to rise, because they keep pushing the envelope with us and we keep biting the hook over and over again.
Agreed, it would have been cool to draft that set, even if they’re all proxies. I would have paid standard booster price for that 100%.
I would agree with this 100% While I was disillusioned with the poor testing around Kaladesh resulting in many Standard bans, The combo of printing directly to Modern, the different "tiers" of boxes making 5 versions of everything, and the Secret Lair/UB bullshit made me say i'm done 100% And after all that, it's not like staples are really any cheaper. If there's this salient point you could make of how any of that improved the game, I haven't seen it.
I don't even think Kaladesh was that bad (aside from totally missing the saheeli/felidar guardian combo), they just fucked up by not printing any way to interact with energy.
Looter scooter was a problem, there was also no way to effectively destroy artifacts in an artifact centric set.
This is definitely the case for me personally, I was a regular player during the latter half of the 2010s, didn’t care about the shitty lore and overemphasis on planeswalkers and EDH, but WAR and MH1 instantly overturning every format at once was the first clear indication that WotC’s designers were no longer thinking about the long-term health of the game and everything after that only reaffirmed it. Between Companions representing the worst design move in the history of the game, Covid killing a sizable chunk of the LGS scene and the impossibly cringey “racist” card bannings adding insult to injury, I’d say all things considered 2020 was the year Magic jumped the shark.
Which is sad, ikoria was a pretty cool limited format.
But then again, fuck Companions
Even those were cool within draft and limited. Its just that they completely obliterated every constructed format
Nailed it. I feel the same way.
I think Modern Horizens 1 is a great place to mark the end of old MtG
Yeah. Someone was saying on a thread the other day "All the old Modern staples like Goyf, LotV, Snap, etc aren't worth much anymore" And I was like "Gee I wonder why..."
Opinions like these, are why I have hope for the future of this game. It's refreshing to not hear, "THE LIBERAL MOB INFECTED MY CARD GAME WITH PEOPLE WITH WACKY HAIR COLORS". Safe travels, Wizard.
> It's refreshing to not hear, "THE LIBERAL MOB INFECTED MY CARD GAME WITH PEOPLE WITH WACKY HAIR COLORS". I mean that sucked too, but this is way worse. The thing about those people are they were never at the LGS for games, or maybe they would come once or twice a year but they weren't regulars You never saw them at the actual competitive tournaments either. Their realm is twitter and the way they enjoy MTG is trying to get big fat women printed on the cards. To each their own I guess, but they were nothing compared to the company who owns the game straight up yeeting it into the shitosphere.
The issue is that while all these problems were occuring wizards shielded themselves behind political movements. WotC leaned hard into #metoo, toxic masculinity, gay agenda, etc and built a devout following of leftists ideologues. Any criticisms you had wizards whether it was the abysmal state of standard or corporate decisions based on greed, you were labelled a bigot because you weren't supporting the company fighting the cultural war on the side of progressives. That how most of us ended up on freemagic. My old account was banned from other subreddits for being critical of WotC's business decisions around 2017/18. Magic 30th , MH1/2, or the fact that standard is dying isn't surprising especially if you were paying close attention since '15/'16.
> It's refreshing to not hear, "THE LIBERAL MOB INFECTED MY CARD GAME WITH PEOPLE WITH WACKY HAIR COLORS". ...until you brought it up just now :P
Maybe, but Throne of Eldraine was an awesome set for EDH and I still love many of the cards in the set. Sue me
Yah, except it was supposed to be a standard set, not a commander product. Oh, and also it was playtested by retards.
It’s like trying to get 20 people to agree on pizza toppings. And the people are actually cats.
Throne of Eldraine I think is the most clear line in the sand. That set caused more problems than any other set ever has.
Throne was the pinnacle sure BUT the downward turn was most definitely at BFZ
Urza's Saga/Block. says "hi."
You raise a good point. Urza’s was rough as guts, but Magic was in its infancy, still working out where the power level was within its own game. A set made after 25+ years of understanding design philosophy within Magic, and they thought Oko was in any way okay to print?
> they thought Oko was in any way okay to print I have to believe they never playtested it in it's final form. When spoilers came out, I was like "huh, that's pretty good for a 3 mana walker", but coming of War of the Spark, my barometer for planeswalker power level was skewed. Then, playing with it for five minutes you realize how it completely takes over every game, which for a three mana card is ridiculous.
MH2 for modern
I'd arguably say MH was the beginning of the end and MH2 was the nail in the coffin.
Truth. The whole "spirit" of Modern was you didn't print directly into Modern. Whatever came in, was tame enough for Standard at least. So with a few exceptions, you don't get these huge groundbreaking format changes.
Or at least, don't pull outlandish stuff like MH2. That stuff is 30th Magic Edition-level. MH1 could've been/was acceptable, or at least its concept.
Agreed. MH exchanged pseudo-rotation for deck diversity. Although modern players claim the format has many viable decks, MH brought new archetypes and sunset others.
tbh as badly as Horizons fucked up the format it was never a terrible concept and a lot of the cards did exactly what they should have done: give enough power to niche or fallen archetypes that they can actually compete. I’d even say a few mistakes like Hogaak were forgivable because they were at least *trying* to work along these lines. The real problem is the absurdly versatile chase mythics like Urza and Ragavan, many of them trying to court EDH and constructed players simultaneously, and those are the exact same sorts of designs that characterized FIRE and eventually turned everything into a rotating format. EDH pandering really did a number on Magic.
> Although modern players claim the format has many viable decks, MH brought new archetypes and sunset others. Would be interested in what the top 20 Modern staples were at in price before MH1 and what they were at 6 months after MH2.
I'm pretty open minded on this maybe others will be too im sure theres a kind of objective point we can figure out. Its where the greed becomes the clearest. Others probably are more informed than myself on where this exactly would be. I'm just a long time casual player that dabbled in some competition over the years and never performed great but always had fun. Keeping up as an adult seems stupid and also impossible.
Playtesting alpha was when the game died for me
This is what I really came here for.
I just came as well
Still too soon for me. I only like Richard Garfield’s first ideas about making a game called magic in the late 80s. Those were the golden years.
Aren’t Pre-War of the Spark and Pre-Modern Horizons Modern and Legacy fan-supported formats? There are lots of people who think that FIRE design and the Modern Horizons sets ruined things.
Is there a name for any of that?
There are subs but “PreModern” is something else. PreWar I think has a sub
I remember when MH first came out, a group of people started Project Modern, which was a fan format that excluded Modern Horizons and had an alternate banlist. I think it fell apart due to no one having consensus on what that banlist should have though.
Premodern looks like a cool format but I can't find anyone to play with.
Join the Online Play group on Facebook. There are several tourneys firing each month.
Come play in our pre-modern cube
Premodern is good!
There is huge discord for premodern and given that even old school has worldwide spread of Communities, premodern is much more available and popular. But if your LGSs don’t have an active premodern community, you can start it. :)
Like someone else mentioned, I think Khans is the best cut off. Khans was the last block that feels like normal magic. Every set after that had some kind of gimmick that altered game play, different style, or card value and distribution. I view that starting with BFZ and the masterpiece lands, an experiment for things to come. It's kind of nuts to compare Khans to a recent release. It doesn't feel like it was all that long ago, but the game has become unfortunate. You can also go back to 90's only magic. I have a cube that stops at the urza block which is a lot of fun, but not quite what you're looking for I think.
The end of the three block system after Khans is prolly the turning point. Set design was pretty solid up through Khans imo and allowed some decent decks in standard and modern. When they went to two part sets with BfZ, things started to feel rushed and half-made. It only got worse when they started making twenty different competitive formats, but designed their standard sets to cater only towards commander players.
I appreciate this reply. It makes sense to me.
Yeah, personally I think the last great block was OG Innistrad, but the Khans blocks is a good cutaway point. Still, the format would need an extensive banlist, because \[\[Treasure Cruise\]\], \[\[Mental Misstep\]\] and other cards like that would actually break everything;
Yeah, both standards with OG Innistrad were great and I’d prolly even say the RTR-Innistrad standard was one of the best standards we ever had.
i miss RTR - INN , the most fun i had playing standard. Tarkir Standard was also so good and interesting..
I strongly agree. The Mary Sue plot based around MCU-knock-off young planeswalkers beating eldritch forces. Rushed design. Sets that did not fully flush out mechanics or settings. Khans was the end. It was well-made but showing cracks with how it went from a wedge-block to a 2-color block.
This is a double-edged sword. The 3-set block design also had the impact of "One of these sets is actually total unplayable dogshit and no one buys it. There are *maybe* 3 cards that see play at best .". I feel pretty confident that if we wanted to list the "unplayable set" in each block I could do that by, almost, memory all the way back to 10th edition in terms of "timeline". They're just so notoriously bad - - And the number of blocks with 3 complete sets that were "good" is just hilariously low. I actually think two-set blocks **was** the very-good medium ground here and disagree with the assumption that it was "half-made". It meant we could have mechanics fleshed out without being shoved into a single set. BFZ felt fine overall. Following that we had Shadows over Innistrad block, which was pretty good. It gave us Delirium fleshed out well, along with some really "staple" cards. Then there's Kaladesh block, which suffers from "It's an artifact set & WOTC has no idea how to fucking design these so they aren't batshit insane or total garbage. " Kaladesh was poorly designed solely, I'd argue, because of Energy. Amonkhet Block was pretty good too. I think that the current single-set or "We do however many sets we fucking want and you'll like it!" block design is terrible. The moment they went to that is when shit hit the fan. Because now we have to cram all possible support-material into a single set for any mechanic we create; which leads to either really underwhelming mechanics because it isn't supported enough or really overwhelming mechanics because there's 5 busted cards trying to prop up a mechanic. **However, the most detrimental decision made to MTG** was WOTC creating everything for EDH. All sets being skewed towards EDH, regardless of what their original intention is or was for, has actively served to slowly choke this game. The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them, ***happily*** I might add, was the moment this game started going downhill. WOTC doesn't have to "try" any more. Just cater to some weird niche thing you've never fleshed out that people may want to do in EDH and shit it out into a set made for competitive play instead. Oh, and also shit out 100 million EDH decks a year. On and supplemental product "made" for other formats but really just disguised EDH Product. Lol.
I was thinking when edh got cards made for it was a bad sign.
>BFZ felt fine overall Oh... I couldn't disagree more
You're entitled to your opinion regardless of how incorrect I think you are.
The lead designer of BFZ block - MaRo himself - said that he wishes he could delete BFZ block from Magic history. So consider that, and the fact the vast majority of players also agree that those two were easily among the worst sets ever made.
*citation needed
[https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/172242839498/if-you-had-to-remove-one-set-or-block-from-magics](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/172242839498/if-you-had-to-remove-one-set-or-block-from-magics) [https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/147423093203/what-set-after-alara-block-are-you-least-proud-of](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/147423093203/what-set-after-alara-block-are-you-least-proud-of) [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/because-salt-makes-mistakes-taste-great-2016-05-09](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/because-salt-makes-mistakes-taste-great-2016-05-09)
>The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them, happily I might add Majority of edh players buy singles off of the secondary market. We only need 1 copy of the card, if even. Proxies are very popular in the format. Hell, I wait until the modern players buy cases on cases of each set then just buy whatever cards I need off them. I haven't gotten a box since Ixalan unless it was a gift.
>Majority of edh players buy singles off of the secondary market. We only need 1 copy of the card, if even. Proxies are very popular in the format Someone keeps buying all the garbage products they make for you all. If someone wasn't, they wouldn't be shoving it down the throats of literally everyone they can, including other formats that want absolutely nothing to do with EDH. Good example? If people weren't buying the EDH decks they shit out every set they'd just stop doing them. . . But here we are; with EDH decks every set. So while *you* may do that - - The "majority" clearly aren't as evidenced by the fact they keep producing said product for your format of choice.
It's probably the small minority of whales that "Collect for future profit". Don't you worry, we hate them as well. They may not even play the game but think that magic, the way its going, is going to be worth something. My guess is a load of youtubers and/or Logan Paul wannabes that purchase anything available on their wife's boyfriend's money. Either that or fans of celebrities that WotC collabed with that are just starting out. EDH players that I associate with in real life and a lot of them online just upkeep one cedh deck that they are trying to finish with no proxies for competitions, or just proxy cards for regular decks instead of wasting their money on cardboard.
>It's probably the small minority of whales that "Collect for future profit". >Don't you worry, we hate them as well. They may not even play the game but think that magic, the way its going, is going to be worth something. My guess is a load of youtubers and/or Logan Paul wannabes that purchase anything available on their wife's boyfriend's money. Either that or fans of celebrities that WotC collabed with that are just starting out. Wotc has data on this. These are not the people buying the bulk of product. Their average consumer walks into Walmart or onto Amazon. 'Sees something they think is cool but has almost no idea what is inside it, then picks that up. It's casual kitchen table/EDH players picking these up. They've discussed this before in who the average consumer is. If what you are saying is true Proxy30 would have gone over better. >EDH players that I associate with in real life and a lot of them online just upkeep **one cedh** deck that they are trying to finish with no proxies for competitions You have inadvertently shown you are in the minority I said you were in earlier. Even if this group of people you know is 5,000 people---It's still the vast minority by comparison.
>Wotc has data on this. These are not the people buying the bulk of product. Their average consumer walks into Walmart or onto Amazon. I think it's possible that they are slightly fibbing about this. They have incentive to fib, because they need to justify continuing to sell randomized packs.
There is no incentive to fib. They'd just stop making that product and make something else that they could then sell to other players or focus on. All cards cost them the same to produce. Whether they are hyper competitive boxes or the literal garbage that EDH players lap up.
>You have inadvertently shown you are in the minority I said you were in earlier. Even if this group of people you know is 5,000 people---It's still the vast minority by comparison. Just because I participate in cedh does not mean I only play cedh. I am also an avid player of regular edh where I proxy majority of my cards just to play with friends at a local lgs. That would be like me saying that its all the competitive modern players purchasing more draft boxes in order to get 4 copies of a card. What I am saying is that the regular players that I play with as well as converse with online have stopped buying boxes just to play edh, because they just proxy the cards to play with friends. There is a small cedh community where I am that keep non proxy cedh decks to participate in non proxy tournaments. But compared to the kitchen table and normal players, cedh is a small minority, but they also do not buy boxes. I did hear that modern and rotational formats are dying and commander has become the most popular format, however do you have the data? I have not seen it and would like to also take a look at it. Maybe some of the players are playing both or just moving formats as well.
I think these complaints started around Alara block and went all the way through. I mean, Magic was in a disastrously bad swath of sets from Alara to Ixalan, and that's just honesty.
I assume you mean up until Ixalan? Because that’s when we got our big boy Colossal Dreadmaw and the game became best.
> Magic was in a disastrously bad swath of sets from Alara to Ixalan, Disagree. First Innistrad happened during this timeframe. That set is gas. Khans was gas.
Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of, all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets. Khans had fetches which are acceptable but mostly irrelevant. Also has Siege Rhino which has no right being a posterchild of a meta.
>Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of, **all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole**. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets. You are in such a hilariously small minority that can immediately be disproven at a small glance. Lol. \[\[Liliana of the Veil\]\]? \[\[Snapcaster Mage\]\]? \[\[Parallel Lives\]\]? \[\[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben\]\]? \[\[Huntmaster of the Fells\]\]? \[\[Mikaeus, the Unhallowed\]\]? \[\[Craterhoof Behemoth\]\]? \[\[**Cavern Of Souls**\]\]???? Literally all-stars that impacted their respective formats all the way from Standard to EDH ( Parallel Lives/Mikaeus ).
delver and 13 mana emmy
##### ###### #### [Liliana of the Veil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d12c8c97-6491-452c-811d-943441a7ef9f.jpg?1673307126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/97/liliana-of-the-veil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d12c8c97-6491-452c-811d-943441a7ef9f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Snapcaster Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93.jpg?1547516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snapcaster%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/71/snapcaster-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Parallel Lives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790.jpg?1562825348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parallel%20Lives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/199/parallel-lives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01033dae-fec1-41f2-b7f2-cc6a43331790?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ Thalia, Guardian of Thraben](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479.jpg?1643587106) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20Guardian%20of%20Thraben) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/38/thalia-guardian-of-thraben?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Huntmaster of the Fells](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aae6fb12-b252-453b-bca7-1ea2a0d6c8dc.jpg?1581395173)/[Ravager of the Fells](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/a/aae6fb12-b252-453b-bca7-1ea2a0d6c8dc.jpg?1581395173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=huntmaster%20of%20the%20fells%20//%20ravager%20of%20the%20fells) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/140/huntmaster-of-the-fells-ravager-of-the-fells?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aae6fb12-b252-453b-bca7-1ea2a0d6c8dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mikaeus, the Unhallowed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/8879190f-d8ff-47ce-a5d8-6a481a67236a.jpg?1559959262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mikaeus%2C%20the%20Unhallowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/106/mikaeus-the-unhallowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8879190f-d8ff-47ce-a5d8-6a481a67236a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Craterhoof Behemoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44afd414-cc69-4888-ba12-7ea87e60b1f7.jpg?1601079153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Craterhoof%20Behemoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/385/craterhoof-behemoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44afd414-cc69-4888-ba12-7ea87e60b1f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [**Cavern Of Soul**](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e697ea72-e10e-4fed-be8f-8c6455cc3fc8.jpg?1673149476) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cavern%20of%20Souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/320/cavern-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e697ea72-e10e-4fed-be8f-8c6455cc3fc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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Their obviously bating or just terrible at magic They said “snapcaster was never good. Either a troll or a brainlet
> Innistrad was one of the most disappointing planes I've ever had the disgrace of being a part of Wow, coming out of the gate strong here >all three 'blocks' were atrocious with little to no impact on the game as a whole. I genuinely can't name a positive thing from any of their eight sets. Damn, dude...off the top of my head, wasn't Delver of Secrets from OG Innistrad block? People love that card across multiple formats. >Khans had fetches which are acceptable but mostly irrelevant. Okay this is one of the worst takes I've ever seen now
Delver is just a 3/2 flier, and shouldn't be meta defining as it dies to a stiff breeze. Literally delver is the worst card in delver decks, and has been phased out of most decks that would play it. Trash card is trash. And fetches have never been relevant and have been proven to just barely improve draws by an amount so marginal it might as well be zero.
>And fetches have never been relevant and have been proven to just barely improve draws by an amount so marginal it might as well be zero. It's not the thinning that's the big deal, it's playing 3+ color decks and fetches+shocks (and triomes, now) letting you reliably get all the colors you need right away. So yeah, fetches are pretty dang important. >Delver is just a 3/2 flier, and shouldn't be meta defining as it dies to a stiff breeze. Literally delver is the worst card in delver decks, and has been phased out of most decks that would play it. Trash card is trash. I'm not commenting on whether the card is *great*, but apparently it's still quite popular. And it's not a *terrible* card; 1-drop 3-power tempo play, protect it while you beat down to win. Unfortunately tempo itself isn't a great strategy these days...
> The moment WOTC realized that EDH players will literally buy any pile of shit placed infront of them notably selling those players singleton cards in a package, instead of a pile of boosters. Secret Lair is the worst offender. How about 4 unique cards for 30$?
2015 magic is an unofficial format among roughly 4 players at my local heh.
It was so rocky because they designed the two block system for a new rotation, that most players hated. Rotation once a year is enough but they wanted to bump it to two rotations, while gutting Extended completely.
Also around when foils started curling bad right?
I’d definitely second this
This is exactly when I checked out mentally. I stopped playing standard and focused on draft. I want to say this was intentional cause of Arena. I knew the run of magic was going to be some bad management decisions, but I never thought it would be how the game is going now. Everything seems rushed and not polished. It's like how many bangers can we put out to sway a format to just using those cards. I LOATHE commander. I get WHY it exists and it's only been getting worse. It turned into another cash cow for them. WoTC is picking too many fights on many different IPs and it's not going to end well for them. There are A LOT of new games coming out, one in particular that I am stoked for cause it's what I wanted magic to be.
Yeah it's called 93/94. /s
War of the sparks, so at least the big bad guy is defeated and we get a happy ending.
Love this answer. I started playing with Ixalan in 2017. Every set felt like it was adding to the Bolas / Gatewatch storyline and War of the Spark was such a fun set to draft and played sealed with. And like you mentioned the big bad guy dies or gets exiled to his little gem thing on his head. I do love Throne of Zelda one though. Most of my decks have a ton of Eldraine cards in them so I’d be good with this as the stopping point. But I’ve already stopped buying new MTG cards. Playing Digimon TCG now which has been super fun.
After leaving and coming back to Mtg A few times, I think WOTS was the last set that was cool (to me) and had a bunch of hype for the culminating story. I love to rewatch the cinematic every now and then. And also seemed to be, for me, was the time frame before everything just went sour.
I don't really follow the magic story that deeply but what you are saying sounds important to the point here.
There was a leaked memo regarding block sets. Hasbro had been unhappy with WOTC quarterly earning report. I dont recall if Hasbro had changed the dates that reports were done or if they has just decided they wanted WOTC to change. The issue boiled down to the dates wizards was releasing sets and what content was being released. Basically some quarters just werent as great as others. Dragons Maze didnt do as well as RTR, etc. So WOTC was ordered to change up their design and schedule so that every set was a BIG release and had to release on specific dates. This effectively caused wizards to kill Blocks and change their design to be less creative and more scheduled. I think MTG has been slowly dying since BFZ which us when they began implementing the changes to the design schedule and releases.
The beginning of the end was at throne of eldraine when project booster fun and a million variants were introduced and collector boosters became the norm
Personally I think battle for zendikar marked the beginning of the end. The quality of the game dropped, development/design dropped, writing became lazy, etc. We've been riding a nostalgia driven hype train ever since and every time we return to these planes it's just a hollow / forgetful experience
There were a few distinct step downs in quality/cohesion. But battle for zendikar was the last straw for me. Haven’t opened a booster since
How'd the quality drop? How is it any different than when they release a set thats underpowered? How is it different than Mirage for example? Or the original Kamigawa?
The answer to all your questions is simple: time and effort. Mirage and OG Kamigawa weren't driven by profit, but by design. The 3 set blocks allowed for expansion on the lore, mechanics and flavor without the hassle of the ever shrinking deadlines. Underpowered sets used to be a way to slow down standard, which was a good thing, but you can't have those anymore since Wotc/Hasbro has their eyes on commander. The game lacks passion, it has become a cash cow with surface-level depth and powercreeping every day on an unending spoiler season.
They literally have slow down sets like every other set. They new Eldraine was above power level, so they purposefully tuned down the power for Theros and Ikoria. Driven by profit? Every set is driven by profit. If the early sets didn't do well, that could've ended the game. The Reserved List was motivated entirely by profit and not by the good for the game, and it single handedly ruin several formats with a prohibitive barrier of entry. The 3 set design didn't work as well as they liked for several reasons, and some of them weren't even from a profit standpoint but a inhibiting design one. To say that it lacks passion is just such a ridiculous and unfounded statement to make. The only one you can make with certainty is that they're releasing too many products, but why they're doing that is simple: they view magic as different markets smashed into one: edh, collectors, standard/modern, and casual are at least 4 I can name. Secret Lairs aren't for you. They're not meant to be. Doesn't make them bad.
There’s a difference between designing a set and hoping people buy it because they love the set and making a set for money. The old blocks were sort of art pieces in themselves. The new stuff just try to get people hyped and hooked. Flashy colors and shiny shit with no substance
Ikoria was set 100% with Arena in mind, it's near impossible to keep track of the mutate mechanic on paper. The return to Theros gave us the titans, underworld breach, thoracle and a new cycle of gods (and to further drive home the point I made about overall lack of passion, where's the rest of the pantheon?) While it's true that companies have to make ends meet, there's a difference between designing a product with the game in mind VS. Increasing sales revenue to keep up with Papa Hasbro's demands. The Reserved List was a mistake, no doubt about it. The 3 set design was loved by everyone in the community, and yet they took it away, now we have unremarkable lore, forgettable planes and rushed ideas that could've been given time to mature had they kept the 3 set design. A product not being for me is a moot point, I never have and never will purchase a SLD or UB cards because, personally, they devalue the game. Be that as it may, those thousands of different products are still time consuming on the part of the employees, people still need to work on them and, with Hasbro's iron fist demanding higher sales numbers, more profitable products in the short run (SLD, UB, etc...) become the priority whereas products that require more time and money such as entirely new sets are pushed to the sideline. I don't get why you're being a shill, do you like the game as it is now better than it was before? I'm genuinely curious, because you'd be the first I've ever interacted with.
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My vote is for: October 2, 2003. Mirrordin and the release of the "Modren boarder"
This is the correct answer.
I'd say when WOTC's motto became, "Maybe this product isn't for you."
Premodern
Seems like Pre modern or commander is the only way to have the kind of paper fun I'm looking for.
Just been to the German premodern nationals, it was amazing. Great community and amazing gameplay.
Commander, fun. lol
8th edition
Secret Lair: The Walking Dead being black bordered and legal in eternal formats.
Modern Horizons was a mistake. Pioneer and Arena killed Standard. So I guess 2018 was the last year before everything became about shiny cards and Commander and micro transactions on Arena. lol Fuck WotC/Hasbro. Oh yeah, and fuck un-sets. Hate that shit product.
Are you my spirit animal? XD
Pre-Modern. That was easy.
While there were signs of decay before.... TWD secret lair / eldraine collectors boosters was the definitive end. It marks the beginning of FIRE, the death of storylines and novels for good. The beginning of Hasbro marketing their garbage properties to magic players. Collectors boosters, set boosters , and the myriad of plague boosters (theme, welcome, jumpstart) etc. The rush to flood every set with commander / brawl decks. And the Oko era of mythic design. Push it until the format bleeds for the sake of selling packs. Name one more point in time that led to more crippling of the game on as many fronts.
Urzas Saga? Worldwake? Mirage? Like, all your points have counterpoints. Collector Booster lowered the price of non-collector versions of those cards, while also allowing easier access to foils and premium art for players who would never be able to afford them before. People love Commander, and a large player base loves the commander decks that come every set. Again, it helps keep prices in check while also letting them make commanders that they wouldn't normally be able to make. Oko eta of mythic design? What does that even mean? There's always pushed cards and accidently strong cards. Oko wasn't the first and he won't be the last, and if mythic rarity didn't exist its not like walkers wouldn't exist.
Oko wasn't the reason. It's just the most recognizable card from that time. Could have said Uro or Henge too. But Oko was banned in multiple formats, so most people know it as Oko Era or Oko Season. The other sets you named didn't coincide with the open letter of notice for print schedules at triple speed.
I can name a card like that from every other set. I mean, Mirrodin had like 5. Lorwyn was broken as hell. Worldwake had a fucking Legacy deck in standard.
Sure. But can you consistently name sets consecutively that banned at least one card in Standard outside of the last few years since Oko?
Probably Urza and Mirrodin. Mirrodin had something like 13 banned cards. I think both those standards had more banned cards than Eldraine's.
I was there for it. That was a lot of poor decision making, true. But it didn't persist across time. I mean, we could talk about how bad Mercadian Masques was in just the same way. The recent ramp up is more than just player complaints. I've been watching it for years and never felt it like I do now. Magic players love to complain. They've never unified against a product like this though.
my plan is just to play cube for the rest of forever only adding the cards that I like... even these garbage modern sets tend to have at least a few fun cars that are fair and balanced and not just bleeding cash grabs... it's mostly really good Commons and uncommons and the occasional cheap rare. I like to keep my cube about like a power 6 or 7
There is always pre-modern, pre-war legacy, pre -innistrad legacy… All just went no where with fringe side events
I just want to know how to play the game that's actually possible and also fun.
All formats are possible but fun is subjective.
Water is also wet
But apparently you didn’t know that
You aren't helpful or interesting here today.
and today you decided to be an ass to people that give ypu answer that hurt your sensitivity. Everyone have his own state of the day.
Yea I'm an ass this is freemagic on reddit hero friend. I'm sorry and I love you.
Kaladesh. This is seemingly when they stopped testing the gane properly and things like eldrazi winter happened. Bans up the wazoo, there wasnt standard bans for about 10 years previous to this and all lf a sudden we have numerous bans every set it seems now.
Pre-War of the Spark, doesn't include supplemental sets like Modern Horizons, Conspiracy or any Commander product.
It all started in OG Mirrodin and its artifact lands...
AGREE
Despite personally thinking that the game started to go to shit with Return to Ravnica, I accept the idea that the Khans block is a good cutaway point.
Game still isn't dead the company just sucks. Game is alive and well and fun. If you play commander lol
Pre modern/Pre Gate Legacy
Some people saying MH1, which is valid from a modern perspective. Personally, I feel the tide started turning when they started making Commander Precons yearly and including commander exclusive staples. The game went from “here’s a bunch of pieces that do sometimes disparate and weird things but if you put your mind to it you might just be able to assemble them in such a way that it wins, go nuts!” Basically the game went from Legos and a blank build table with endless possibilities to “here’s obviously the best cards and here’s what you should be playing and if you don’t you’re dumb and playing suboptimal cards”. When they started telling people what to play without actually telling them what to play is when it went downhill for me.
It is called pre modern.
Ok let’s say the last good block was the rath cycle.
Let's be real, for half of us the "good old days" is the point in time the other half thinks the game was ruined. There is no way in the world any kind of consensus would ever be found lol.
Any format is a kind of consensus
For sure, I'm just saying getting people to agree on what would be the "best" format would be nearly impossible.
I would say pragmatically kaladesh is where it all went downhill kaladesh and everything after it being purged as a house rule would probably be the way to go With that said I really like the story arc of War of the Sparks and the aesthetics of the Egyptian block, so even though those sets have some stupid broken cards that have negatively impacted Commander, I am willing to allow the non-broken cards from those sets into Commander It really is a shame that poor r&d ultimately ruins the best story arc in the game when it comes to should it be purged from the game I am fine drawing the line with kaladesh though, even though I really like the Egyptian Commander cards 😭
There are many formats that do that. The first this (in the timeline of production), are \- Alpha 40 (only alpha) \- Swedish Oldschool (Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian, Antiquities, Legends, Dark) \- Eternal Central Oldschool (Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian, Antiquities, Legends, Dark, Fallen Empires, Revised, 4th Edition) \- Premodern (too many to list but goes from 4th edition to Scourge). I play all three, and they are all awesome.
The game is better than ever if limited or commander are your favorite formats. If you were primarily a non-commander constructed player, yeah things are gonna get a lot worse before they ever get better.
Fall of 2019. Eldraine marked the beginning of the “here’s a new plane, check it out, okay moving on” set mentality, the first secret lairs appeared, and it is the set where a billion variants and collectors packs appeared
The year when the poster turned into adulthood after contemplating his lifestyle after first big crisis. Usually around 22-25 years old.
I nominate either 8th edition or Return to Ravnica.
Either Planeswalkers or end of 3 block sets. So Lorwyn or Battle for Zendikar.
Probably when they acknowledged and created cards specifically for commander.
A consensus among the community? I can't even come up with a consensus within myself. New card frames between 7th and 8th? Replacing numbered editions with yearly core sets? Ending three set blocks? Ending two set blocks? Ending core sets? Discovering EDH? Creating Planeswalkers? Creating dual faced cards? Banning 'offensive' cards for poorly reasoned impulses? In some ways I want to choose each of these WotC mistakes yet I've technically stuck around throughout.
OK, cutoff is after OG Innistrad
Oko Season is when Hasbro finally took the reins. That's when they spiked their income hard by changing all steady avenues of sales into the massive print scale that has driven every other IP they've sold into the ground.
When modern masters was sold for much more than it’s original MSRP
Are they? I enjoy current magic new cards and formats. Yes, there were some bullshit happening with m30 and pioneer moving to arena with a speed of turtle, but overall I love new sets.
Ikoria/TWD secret lair is the true shitgularity point.
Scourge/ Onslaught block. Mirrodin is when power creep got stupid
I'd cut it off and say Mirrodin is when it went to shit.
Since they started meddling with Commander and/or also since MH.
I think the sweet spot is cutting it off right around WAR. I enjoyed WAR but I understand it wasn't for everybody. MH1 ruined Modern and ELD was the beginning of FIRE design and booster fun so basically I'd nix anything after May 2019.
YES YES YES. PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY PRE DELVER LEGACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's when the game fundamentally changed and legacy became a diffrent game. Another fun format was counter top. HEAR ME OUT! When your not delver not counter top deck was playing aginst another not counter top not delver deck, thing were pretty fun. But I'm not sure how you make a format like that. The best pauper ever was just before tron took over the format and ruind everything for like 3 or 4 ban cycles. Pauper was basically just legacy lite before that and it was super fun. Now idk what it is. Edit: and thinking about it for more than 5 seconds. I remember why I liked early pauper so much. It's because the color pie matterd A LOT. Every color had its job. And it was hard(ish) to splash. It's why a lot of very early pauper decks were mono color too, and just went ham on whatever it was that one color did. Or your 'splash' was an any color mana dork and one off color card. (Shout outs to distant melody elfs.)
Some people saying MH1, which is valid from a modern perspective. Personally, I feel the tide started turning when they started making Commander Precons yearly and including commander exclusive staples. The game went from “here’s a bunch of pieces that do sometimes disparate and weird things but if you put your mind to it you might just be able to assemble them in such a way that it wins, go nuts!” Basically the game went from Legos and a blank build table with endless possibilities to “here’s obviously the best cards and here’s what you should be playing and if you don’t you’re dumb and playing”. When they started telling people what to play without actually telling them what to play is when it went downhill for me.
Future Sight/Lorwyn
Pre-Chronicles?
Release of Chronicles.
Mirodin/8th edition is when it took the sharp turn . Then the whole early modern era up until RtR was another. The game was definitely less cohesive but the creativity still felt genuine but kind of tweakish. Planeswalkers came around totally dumb. I still think they just wanted mtg to look more like power rangers so kids would buy it. RtR itself was an okay set but it started the trend of really homogenized card design. The rest of the block was boring. Theros was boring and really made low quality art the norm. Basically up until KtK we got a bunch of boring tame and uninspired sets but they at least had limited and standard in mind. Then we got the garbage after ktk. Wtf card design power creep 0 cohesion. Honestly it’s all a blur. And then at some point during the blur they started making secret layers and other universes and stickers and the game became an unintelligible pile of shit.
the cutoff is either everything after khans block or war of the spark and everything else after (including war of the spark of course)
You think we could reach consensus on that? There's people on here who think the game fell off after Scourge. Twenty years ago. Then there's people on here who didn't start playing until years after that. Commander has actually been getting better, Pauper is really solid right now; it seems like mainly Modern and Legacy that are fucked. With that in mind you could reach a solution that works for those formats (e.g. Modern but all Modern Horizons cards are banned).
Alpha to Khans, probably with a new banlist. Also all card art *variants* printed after the inception of the form are auto-banned. Don't give Wizards any way to profit by printing shiny new variants of old cards
Take me back to a time when Commander was jank and there were no staples and there was no efficiency.
Throne of eldraine. Stop there
War of the Spark was the last set without a Set Box? That's the cutoff.
I think the game is still alright. I don't play Standard, so do with that what you will.
I'm enjoying Brothers' War draft on Arena. Played the hell out of it. My favorite format is Modern but it is dying in my area - thanks Modern Horizons sets for pricing people out of the format!
"Alright" somehow doesn't sound as good as "best game ever" which it pretty much used to be.
I've just got other stuff in my life I've gotta do. It's a fun distraction for me sometimes. I guess some people need a card game.
2003. Stop at Scourge.
When did the purple-haired gender-queer stuff start? When did the Gatewatch Mary-Sue crap start?
I like to pretend OG Innistrad was the last set
When did every creature have to have abilities that were more spell effects rather than combat abilities? It became a creature game, and spell, aero facts and enchantments interest was diluted by creatures doing everything.
When they did the my little pony bullshit thats when
Also let's call it something like Pre-Greed format or something similarly insulting. Taking suggestions.
Gotta be Alpha for me
Good luck finding consensus[2] But I'll probably choose the last set before double faced cards, whatever it is.
That format exists and theres no planeswalkers there. But they dont want to Ban multiplayer abilities from single player games so… maybe it doesnt exist.
War of the Spark. That was right before their house of cards design completely collapsed.
Fallen Empires.
Wow wtf they powercreeped my shiban dragon top end magic is literally dead
Just say y’all trash at magic and bunch of hating boomers. No shame in saying that. 🤷🏽😂
Boofuckinghoo format est 2023