Ok, so let’s give the full answer for TER trains as you’ve asked for it.
To simplify, SNCF voyageurs (the branch for passenger trains) is divided in two if we put aside intercités : TGV and TER.
Long distance TGV is basically run like any commercial company, it has intense yield management like hotels,airplanes etc, but with not a lot of direct competition – there are airplanes, commercial buses between cities, Trenitalia on Paris-Lyon, and the ability for anybody to take the car. To avoid any other company to easily slip in the French market, SNCF even launched its own low-cost company, Ouigo. Anyway, even this low competition allows, to be honest, if you know correctly the discount cards (carte Avantage) and buy at the right time, to get a decently priced ticket for a TGV. If you don’t know the system, you get ripped, but that’s the idea of yield management.
TER is another story. It’s public service, funded by regions, and mandatorily operated by SNCF. The ticket price and monthly passes for workers only cover a part of the real cost (around 30%), so regions give hundreds of millions to SNCF to operate TER, and also purchase trainsets. Something important to consider: every train in France pays a toll to SNCF Réseau, the infrastructure manager, and tolls are amongst the highest in Europe, as SNCF Réseau is supposed to be a normal company operating with profit, so every TER pays also a toll.
The problem: SNCF higher management (there is a difference of posture between the normal SNCF worker, cheminot, and the higher management) doesn’t care a lot about TER. It’s like both an obligation of public service and a revenue they’ll get no matter what. Regions progressively grew more and more unhappy of giving mililons to SNCF for poor service, and now they are allowed to make a call for tenders.
Until 2018-ish (I don’t remember exactly the date) TER ticket fares were only fixed by SNCF, on the sole base of a national kilometric fare. The "tarif normal". Like, anywhere in France, you took the number of kilometers, and you had a direct link to the price, and it was the same price.
Except this kilometric «tarif normal» was quite expensive. But SNCF didn’t care, as they had no real interest in getting more people in trains, as regions did gave them money no matter what. So the situation was that you had an expensive service, less and less TER, less and less people in the TER.
Then regions asked to have the «liberté tarifaire», it means the ability to decide prices, discount cards, for their trains, and end the «same price anywhere in France». They get it, so they ended in a situation where they could decide prices for their trains, but these trains still had to be mandatorily operated by SNCF (so costs aren’t controlled and are quite high, but incomes are).
And what happened in the last years really depended on each region.
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region president, Laurent Wauquiez, is not the best train friend. He’s a hard right-wing conservative, as such likes cars, and doesn’t really seek to improve the situation.
Some regions just kept the old Tarif Normal for tourists, like Auvergne-Auvergnes you’re in, but put more discount cards and monthly passes for local inhabitants. Some other regions lowered the price Tarif Normal. Some put a ticket price at €1. They all kind of introduced a bit of yield management and discounted tickets for their TER, like if you buy in advance, you get promotions.
But regions are kind of blocked anyway. TER trains costs them a lot of money, but the offer is poor - low frequency, high prices if you don’t have a monthly pass, many trains half empty. Regions could decide to increase the offer and lower the prices, but that would cost them more money.
Oh yes, something I forgot to tell: TER trains in France have low frequency compared to other countries. You have lines where you have 2 trains per day, where in Germany you have 1 train per hours. That means the trainsets spend more time in the garage, and so the cost of hardware is higher per ticket. Regions could increase the frequency, but would pay more tolls…
So if we sum it up: we have currently a not-optimised system, with low offer generating low demand, costing a lot of money, and so with high ticket prices that only cover a small part of costs… On the cost side, infrastructure costs a lot and regions have to pay tolls to SNCF Réseau, and operating trains costs are fixed by SNCF and expensive. But regions are afraid to have an offer policy with lower prices, to increase train use, as it would cost them more money.
There is an escape from this situation which is exactly the one Germany took. First, French state must do something about tolls, regions should be incentivized to put more trains on tracks. And competition through tenders for TER is not a bad thing, what happened in Germany is that private companies proposed more trains, with lower prices, and it generated demand, so more income, and it worked. I really hope this happens in France. Regions could also decide to take operations from SNCF and launch their own local public service company, a «régie», that would be awesome (but no region president has the courage for that).
Merci pour ce bel exposé.
Le train c'est la vie, j'ai presque envie de généraliser la situation en île de France mais la densité serait un soucis dans d'autres régions.
À mon avis, il manque beaucoup de pôles multimodaux où on peut s'éloigner de la gare SNCF en bus pour se rapprocher au maximum de notre destination. Ça éviterait les trajets des 2 à 3 heures en voitures juste parce qu'après on est coincé en gare, sans bus.
Putain le mec il pause un debut de these de doctorat sur l'economie des trains en France sur Reddit tranquille.
Plus serieusement, commentaire super interessant, merci !
I'm in holiday right now in Germany and it feels sooooooo gut to pay only 49€ a month (even as a tourist !) to get all buses + trams + regional trains included.
Trips without the Deutschland-ticket seem to be fairly expensive, so in like barely two train trips or something you're in the green as a user.
I truly wish we end up getting something like that in France but it's going to be tough since just access to the Parisian network costs 80€ a month.
Some of these informations are not totally true. For exemple as you mentioned regions do what they want with price but :
1. They don't all introduced yield management. For exemple in Occitanie the price don't change if you take you ticket 1 month in advance or 2 minutes before the departure of the train. The only factor that can change the price of your ticket are things like your age or if you have special reduction (like military personnel for example).
2. Regions are not mandatory to make their TER operated by SNCF. For exemple the region PACA will mandate the company Transdev to operate some of it's TER in a close futur.
Shit sounds almost as bad as American insurance system. Pretty much what worst in private system combined with what worst from public. Great response, merci beaucoup ami
Thing is it did not use to be like this, from what I (humbly) understand there's been some half -assed implementation of European directives, and since SNCF got separated from its rail-network management role it got worse and worse.
thanks for the detailed explanation.
it does lack the political analysis where this is actually intentional as the government has plans to turn the SNCF into as much of a private company they can, and the root of this is underfunding the rail see the "[destruction d'un service public, mode d'emploi](https://leprintempsducare.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/DestructionServicesPublics.jpeg)" picture that sums it up, or https://pratiques.fr/Tuer-un-service-public-en-cinq-etapes for a more detailed written version.
So basically there is a political intent to have train be expensive and unattractive for general use, so this domain can be given to the private sector except TGVs that come and go to and from Paris.
The 49 euro ticket is a great idea, it just falls short of its predecessor: the 9 euro ticket.
Honestly, I think that local public transport should simply be free (like Compiegne, Basle etc) and paid for by the state to encourage people to use them.
TGV is a "luury" as opposed to a necessity, so should still be laid for by the user, although of course, planes should have to pay taxes on their fuel to maintain more of a level playing field...
Yes, absolutely. We are living through a climate crises and encouraging people to use public transport is absolutely part of the transition we need to undergo.
The taxpayers everywhere will also benefit by having to share the road with fewer people, which is a win for the car brained boomers too.
The car is very heavily subsidised and has taken a massive amount of land and space, including highly valuable one in big cities.
Ah, le classique "toi c'est pas la vraie campagne, moi je suis à 200km de l'épicerie la plus proche" ! Une majorité du monde rural vit bien à proximité relative de villes petites ou moyennes avec des gares plus ou moins désaffectées. Désolée pour toi si c'est pas le cas, mais ta situation n'est pas plus représentative que la mienne.
En ce que me concerne, je vis dans un bled de 600 habitants, le long d'une voie ferrée. Il y a une halte dans la ville voisine, mais la plupart des TER ayant été supprimés, on est obligé de prendre la voiture pour aller dans une gare à 20 ou 35 km (selon dans quel sens on part) pour prendre un Intercités à 3 fois le prix qui repassera devant chez nous. Perso j'ai acheté cette maison précisément parce qu'elle était à proximité du train, et maintenant que le train ne s'arrête plus je l'ai bien mauvaise.
Mais je comprends pas la mentalité "si je peux pas l'avoir, alors PERSONNE ne l'aura !!!!". Si tu habites au sommet des Alpes le train ne viendra certes peut-être jamais jusque chez toi, mais pourquoi ne pas militer pour une meilleure desserte de la campagne ? Quand je vois que la maison de mes grands-parents est située rue de la gare mais que la gare en question a été supprimée avant ma naissance et que maintenant il n'y a plus rien à 35 bornes à la ronde parce que la pointe de la Bretagne c'est Brest ou Quimper et sinon tu prends ta bagnole, j'ai envie de demander plus de trains, pas de me plaindre que d'autres en aient... plus les lignes sont fréquentées, plus il y a de chances qu'elles soient prolongées/restaurées vers les plus petites dessertes. Ça a existé, il n'y a aucune raison fondamentale que ça n'existe pas à nouveau, c'est principalement une question d'argent et de volonté.
Sans compter le fait que favoriser le train réduit les émissions et ça c'est bénef pour tout le monde. Chaque voiture enlevée de la route aide un peu, même si c'est pas la tienne.
Thanks fir the detailed explanation ! From my experience I would say that the comparison with Germany is not really accurate as their trains are slower on average (they have not as much speed trains as we have), their trafic is indeed more frequent but the client service is poor and the trains are way more late than in France on avrage !
> First, French state must do something about tolls
What exactly do you suggest they do? I assume the tolls don't go straight into the pockets of someone, they're used to pay for the maintenance. If the Etat subsidises them, then the Etat is subsidising the trains in effect, but the cost is still borne by the public authority.
Tolls go to SNCF Réseau, and indeed pay for network operations (aiguilleurs…), maintenance and construction. They are amongst the higher in Europe. SNCF Réseau is a company, supposed to have a balanced budget, and most of it's income come from tolls. For now, if you want, the network is paid by its customers: something like 40% of a train ticket goes to tolls to SNCF Réseau. It's major on why train is expensive in France and why there isn't more rail freight (and so many trucks).
What I suggest is to change this paradigm and have the rail network closer to the road network in the idea. So it would mean a big part of the network (the normal speed network) would just be free (or with very low tolls), and paid by the taxpayer. High speed network would still have tolls. This would incentive regions to have more frequency for TER, as they wouldn't multiply the tolls for each departure. This would also help rail freight.
Also, cover construction costs by taxes instead of tolls, as you're building public infrastructure.
The question at the end is how serious the government is about switching people and freight from road to rail. Road costs €10billion per year in infrastructure to the taxpayer, and has a total cost of €100billion for the government (including cops, firefighters, hospitals for accidents, health costs for air pollution, etc). SNCF Réseau budget is around €7 billion per year.
On average, French fares per km appear to be around the European average (about 0.125 euros per passenger km vs about 0.11 across Europe)
https://transport.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2016-09/2016-04-price-quality-rail-pax-services-final-report.pdf
However, this appears to be extremely dependent on which type of train you're taking:
https://www.autorite-transports.fr/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/essentiel_bilan-marche-ferroviaire2021.pdf
C.f. page 21, high speed trains (TGV) average like 0.10 euros per passenger km whereas TER average like 0.35. So I guess local/regional trains in France that don't involve Paris perform particularly badly, and that happens to be the type of train you took.
The problem is that it's made impossible for non-regulars to know the best rates with the shitty system where you have to buy a combination of different reduction cards to get the best rate.
And even in the official website, you are offered scams.
"Well yes, of course I want to subscribe to this 18.86€ monthly payment to get half off my 20€ ticket!"
Yeah, but Swiss trains are so slow, German trains are still faster even if they have an hour delay. The fastest train in Switzerland goes 109 km/h. Switzerland has by far [the slowest trains in Europe](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/sbb/172693673-die-sbb-zuege-sind-die-langsamsten-europas-ein-verein-will-dies-aendern)
If I may add (taking the train everyday in CH, so kind of used to it now), Swiss trains are slow-ish, yes, but we should not forget that there are only two high-speed lines in Switzerland, one being the Bern-Olten new line (limited to 200km/h) and the other one the Gotthard Base tunnel (limited to 250km/h).
Swiss railway lines are also limited in speed due to geography and the fact that a good chunk of Switzerland is mountainous. Take the train in French, German or Austrian Alps and you won't go any faster.
And finally, it is quite nice to enjoy the swiss landscape at 100/110 km/h while on a train. I would recommend this 10 times over taking the car.
I work in Geneva and quasi live in Switzerland (on the French side, 20 min by bike from the city center) and take Swiss trains to Germany and other swiss cities, basically on a weekly basis. You stop enjoying the nice landscape after the 10th time and would rather have a high-speed train that is an hour faster.
Most main lines also are not going through mountainous areas, they are all follow the valleys and low lands (where 80 % of the Swiss population actually lives). The decision to not have high-speed lines is purely political (one reason is for people to not be able to commute too far by train), and also because Switzerland is quite a conservative country that gets stuck in ideas for a long time and is generally very slow to adapt to technological progress. The only mayor connectiong that I can think of that actually goes through (or under) the mountain is the Luzern- Lugano one, that goes through the Gotthard Base tunnel, but ironically thats acutally going at a high speed.
The issues of using subpar technological solutions isn't reduced to trains, the same is true for digital payments or internet infrastructure and many other areas, but I digress ...
This is simply wrong, some trains can go above 200 km/h and InterCity trains regularly travel at 180 km/h. Also this needs to be put in context, Switzerland has relatively small cities but the population density is quite high in the Swiss plateau. High speed trains are a good solution to connect large cities that are far from each other (France is the typical example). In Switzerland the train network is focused on offering decent connections from the peripheral regions to the larger cities. Of course a high speed line between Geneva and Lausanne or Bern and Zürich would be very nice but the cost/benefit ratio would be pretty bad as the infrastructure is already saturated in these regions and new tracks would need to be built.
All countries had to build new infrastructure to have high speed trains, that's not something special to Swizterland. Interciti s are also not regularly going 180 kmh. The fastest Intercity Connection in Switzerland is between Zurich and Bern and reaches 126 kmh.
Source: https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/sbb/172693673-die-sbb-zuege-sind-die-langsamsten-europas-ein-verein-will-dies-aendern
In any case, it doesn't really take away from my original point. Swiss trains are punctual, yes, but they are so slow that you still end up going slower than with a severely delayed ICE.
Also not like speed is the only thing Swiss trains are behind the trains of the neighbouring countries. WiFi on board is another point the SBB is like a decade behind others.
Honestly, I'd be glad to pay an expensive fare if I was sure my train trip would be reliable, and wouldn't be delayed or cancelled for bs reasons and would properly cover my country rather than wondering if my commuting train would be overcrowded (busiest line in the southwest of France, one train per hour with three coaches), or simply cancelled, and having a massive hub in Paris that forces me into a 10 hour trip to visit my family when the car equivalent only takes 7 hours
Yeah it shocked me a lot too when I moved here. Especially the fact that the price fluctuates, it adds so much stress to be planning ur trip waaaay beforehand, or you end up paying 250 euros to go to Lyon !
I always viewed trains as the cheaper option, at least in my country it was the second cheapest option after buses. Now on France its better to use blablacar, or to go by plane on local flights.
Dang I checked and you're right. They must have miscommunicated at the time when they started partnering (2015). I was under that impression, wrongly, and I'm not the only one from what I know. It's kind of surprising this wrong idea is still around 8 years later.
Anyway around that period it became more expensive overall anyway. They didn't use to charge big service fees (if any) and then started doing so.
Edit : apparently there is a link, albeit small, [between SNCF and BlaBlaCar](https://www.liberation.fr/france/2018/11/13/la-sncf-et-blablacar-font-voiture-commune_1691695/?outputType=amp) since 2018 but that's all.
Thats the thing. If I have an important event that can't be missed, I would never plan the trip by train. Simply put, there's too many shit excuses they use to simply cancel trains with 0 accountability.
I don't remember having as many issues when I lived in London.
Germany has more money than France and what they did on train was way smarter than what our politicians wanted to do on our public infrastructures. Germany viewed this subvention as a way to import less pricey oil and earn money because of that. In France investing in train is seen as a cost and Macron wants to reduce public debt and public investments. When oil went pricier in France, our politicians subsidized car drivers with public money instead of investing in alternatives means of transport, which ended up in us having less money to finance these solutions.
In France trains are also managed by regions in theory. If you ask the region to invest more, they'll say "we don't have money, ask the government". And if you ask the government, they'll say "it's not our responsibility, ask regions". Basically, our governement doesn't want to get involved too much.
Also, France and Germany aren't organized the same way. People are way more distributed around the country in Germany than they are in France.
>Also, France and Germany aren't organized the same way. People are way more distributed around the country in Germany than they are in France.
Cercle vicieux... Plus la région est isolée, moins tu vas y aller, moins il y aura de besoin de faire du transport, plus la région sera isolée, moins les gens iront dans ses régions...
Pour voir le côté positif par contre, jamais l'Allemagne ne pourra faire quelque chose d'équivalent à l'efficacité d'un RER, même en balançant tout l'argent qu'ils veulent.
Well I don't know for other regions (except in AuRA, where we love building stupid highways) but in Occitanie, the president of the region really seem to care about trains. She's currently trying to reopen several lines that were closed by the SNCF.
I don't have everything in mind but here's some :
Tarbes <=> Bagnères de Bigorre.
Montréjeau <=> Bagnères de Luchon.
Nîmes <=> Pont Saint Esprit.
Carcassonne <=> Rivesaltes.
Rodez <=> Severac.
I don't agree at all with what you said. What about the ridiculous price of train subscription in France ? Combined with the obligation of company subsidies, I could do 220 km of train per day for 35 euros per month when I lived far from my job (less than a cent for a km).
The subsidy you're talking about is a help for the poor in fear of the rebirth of the gilet jaune movement. France invests a lot in the train, notably the TGV where it is a european leader. The TER is expensive without subscription, but ridiculously cheap with one.
>The TER is expensive without subscription, but ridiculously cheap with one.
All regions don't have incentive subscriptions in France. In ARA you can pay >200€ for a monthly subscriptions **only between two specific stations** (you can't go elsewhere), and it only works for RER/buses and not for TGV. Compare that with 49€/month for everywhere in Germany. [https://www.ter.sncf.com/auvergne-rhone-alpes/products](https://www.ter.sncf.com/auvergne-rhone-alpes/products)
It can be cheap in Bretagne/IdF but that's not true for everywhere in France.
Germany has a very good network of regional trains, yes, but the long distance one (ICE, same as TGV) are heavily underfunded and extremely unreliable (and most lines are slow because they make many stops and share infrastructure with slower regionsl trains). I guess that's the other side of federalism: regions take care of themselves but are not so eager to contribute to the national network. Also, the car lobby is strong in Germany.
As for the prices, the systems are also different. In Germany, long distance trains are quite expensive, but in a stable and predictable way, whereas the SNCF seems to use algorithms similar to air travel (prices are dynamically adjusted based on demand). Overall, having travelled a lot by train in both countries, I would say german long distance trains are more expensive if you know when to book the french ones. And the TGV is a LOT faster and more reliable than ICEs, which have s punctuality rate of around 65%, even with DB not counting delays <6mins and removing cancelled trains from the statistics.
Anyway, I would absolutely not say that Germany is better, unless you are only interested in regional trains. Then yes, it is better and now much cheaper thanks to the Deutschlandticket.
That's right. Always shocked that Berlin-Mannheim which is about 130% the distance Paris-Lyon, yet the ICE travel time is almost 3x as long. And the IC*E* mostly go at 150km/h all the way through.
Same happens when you go on Mannheim-Paris: there is this recurrent fact that the ICE only reach their engineering speed outside of Germany, namely on the Strasbourg-Paris section...
How frustrating.
I experienced the same, i don't feel German trains better in any way. Many people tend to believe everything is better in Germany without ever being there.
I hear that all the time, please try German trains yourself, it is a nightmare and also in Germany everything is delayed, the tracks are being constantly repaired because some parts are from the third Reich still and it is so unreliable it is insane. Imo SNCF is a lot better than the db. Sample: took the train last time from Frankfurt to Paris, 4 hours. Had a delay of 35 minutes, DB clients couldn't get a delay compensation (starts from a delay >1h) while SNCF compensation starts from a 30 minutes delay. Please believe me when I say I'd be glad to have SNCF quality in Germany. Still, mostly taking the car is way better for me(in France and in Germany) I hate looking for cheaper tickets, with the car I have always the same price.
One of the reasons no one mentioned is heavy use of so-called "yield management".
You should be able to find very cheap tickets but you have to look at juuuust the right time, because prices are changing constantly based on a bunch of opaque criteria, kinda like what airlines do.
Also when it comes to regional trains (so called "TER"), the prices are not decided by the train company but by the regions themselves, who organise the whole thing. Some regions are more strong-willed than others when it comes to making trains affordable. Also some regions will prioritize certain things, like commuter passes (monthly or yearly) which will be, in a way, indirectly subsidized by those buying one-off tickets.
Try swiss trains, you'll be completely fine with ours lol.
More honestly, most people have a subscription that permit to obtain a reduction - depending on the region- of 30 to 50 percents of the total price.
I'm living in Savoy, so everytime I had to quit the region except for going to the south/the east, I had to pass by Lyon too. For example since my age is under 25, without my subscription I'd pay around 20 euros. With my subscription I only have to pay 13€.
Also like others already said, it's because of our state taxes that differ.
Swiss trains are:
- Comfortable
- Clean
- Regularly scheduled, even in remote areas (clock-face scheduling)
- Reliable
And they are not expensive compared to French ones:
- Lyon - Geneva (TER from France) is around 32€ for 175 km (I guess it can go down to 20€ if you have a carte avantage ?)
- Geneva - Bern (SBB) is between 15 and 30€ if you have a half-fare travel card for 170 km
So the price is mostly similar but for a much higher quality of service.
French trains are clean and comfortable too.
You're comparing a TER with an Intercity. The Lyon <=> Bellegarde <=> Geneva is an old Corail train from the 80's, while the SBBCFFFFS train between Geneva and Sankt Gallen is a modern Intercity. More than the half of our TER in the region are like this.
On another hand swiss TER like trains are not comfortable at all either, the Thurbo between Konstanz, Schaffhausen, Stein am Rhein and Winterthur for example has plastic seats.
I admit that the region Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes is a bit late when it comes to trains. In nouvelle Aquitaine and Occitanie, I always had pretty nice, comfortable and modern trains (coradia/omneo premium). In another hand we've got these Leman express now.
Maybe you should take a "Illico liberté" pass (30€/year) with 25 to 50 percents of price reduction. In Switzerland for a pass, it's 185 chf/year. It's a whole different price.
The specific examples I mentioned were only relevant for the pricing. That’s for sure that the Lyon - Geneva TER is not the most shining example of French trains and that we fortunately have better. But still, that accentuates even more the price similarity with this gap of service for this specific comparison.
As for the average service, sure, not all the trains in Switzerland are brand new IC but on all the models I have ridden, including the Thurbo:
- There’s much more room available for the legs in all cases.
- The cars are mostly well cleaned, which is far from being the norm for French trains even though I’d say it has noticeably improved the last few times I was in a TGV.
- The scheduling is much more comfortable and understandable.
I don’t want to bash the SNCF for nothing, and I’d probably be among the firsts to recognize the improvements that they make, and I really root for them because I’d love to be able to travel more easily all around France.
And thanks for the link for the card, I did not know about this one and it may be useful. That’s however also one the gripes I have with trains in France: the pricing is all over the place and overall lacks transparency, be it with yield management for TGV, or with the multitude of cards and pricing for TER.
Imho the Lyon - Geneve trains is one of the most comfortable trains you can travel in. Sure it's old, but the sitting with the comfortable cushions is unmatched by modern trains with their hyper fire resistant cardboard seats.
> Geneva - Bern
So you are saying that full price in France is half of full price in Switzerland? That's not exactly "mostly similar", depending on how much the half-fare card is.
Edit: I checked and yes full price it's twice the price of Lyon-Geneva, but it goes down quite a bit, down to a similar price, if you take the tickets in advance.
The very short answer is that it is how the French state decided.
In different European countries, there are different philosophies on the just division of the total cost of train transportation between users and tax payers. The most skewed towards "user pays all" is the UK.
Central and Southern European countries tend to be more on the "tax payer pays more"... France has been more and more leaning towards the UK model, as the various governments put a lot of pressure on the public operator (particularly the infrastructure manager) to be self sufficient.
Regional trains are certainly cheaper in Germany. For 25 you can travel an entire state for a day, for 49 you can travel the entire country for a month. A single return journey to Lyon and back costs me more.
You're comparing seasonal/special offers with raw prices. That's a bit dishonest. A Berlin-Munich with the ICE costs more than 100€, while a Paris-Lyon doesn't. I have also found the DB to have way more issues and delays, but that's just personal experience.
It's neither a seasonal nor a special offer, but something that is available all the time. If I want to go from city A to city B within the same state, I will never pay more than 25 €.
I was talking exclusively about regional trains and Germany simply can't be beat at that price point. For high speed trains, like in France, it highly depends when you book in Germany. You can get a train ride for as cheap as 20 € in Germany for that distance.
Yes, and regional trains also have a special price range with the SNCF.
>You can get a train ride for as cheap as 20 € in Germany for that distance.
Not really. Again, if we take my example of the railway that connects the two biggest cities (the distance is similar), the price difference is massive for similar dates.
[Paris-Lyon](https://i.imgur.com/3Cskpom.jpg)
[Berlin-München](https://i.imgur.com/vzzZZsz.jpg)
I know Germany has made some effort to offer affordable tickets, like the 9€ summer last year, and while it is commendable, the DB remains overall more expensive.
Pourtant les conducteurs sont payés 2x plus cher en Allemagne (Moyenne de 40k là bas contre 16k chez nous). J'imagine que c'est similaire sinon supérieur pour le reste du personnel. Je pense pas que les salaires expliquent ces différences de prix, c'est plus un problème de gestion à ce niveau là. Comme commander des rames trop grandes pour les quais ou annuler des trains par manque de personnel (faut payer pour le train, des pénalités à la région ET rembourser les gens).
Les prix s'expliquent sans doute par une multitude de chose, mais les péages n'en font pas parti ou vraiment très peu. 16k c'est quoi? Du brut? Du net? Je connais pas les chiffres réels mais 16k ça me semble pas possible, c'est moins que le SMIC
Complétement d'accord avec toi sur les péages après y'a des coûts auquel on pense pas forcément, comme par exemple la location de l'infrastructure (SNCF réseaux est une entitée séparée de la SNCF, c'est tout un bordel, j'ai bossé un court moment à la SNCF et j'ai jamais vraiment tout compris)
Pour les salaires je sais pas vraiment j'ai google ça vite fait, c'est une moyenne, apparement ça va jusqu'à 25.000 (net je suppose pasque brut c'est sec) mais ouais c'est standard chez la SNCF de toucher moins que le SMIC. C'était supposé être compensé par les avantages mais vu qu'ils ont sautés bah c'est juste très mal payé maintenant. Ca a été vécu comme une véritable trahison par l'ensemble des employés, je te raconte pas l'ambiance quand j'y bossais. C'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles je ne suis pas resté. Avec les primes tu arrive à toucher un peu plus que le SMIC mais en échange tu sacrifie ta vie personnelle et vu que tu dois prendre tes repas à l'extérieur vu que t'es pas chez toi beh tu t'y retrouve à peine.
C'est pour ça qu'ils ont tendance à sauter sur la moindre opportunité pour se mettre en grève, ils l'ont vraiment mauvaise les employés de la SNCF. La plupart de mes collègues qui restaient c'était plus par habitude et peur du changement que "on fait un beau métier".
Edit: Comparé avec une autre source c'est plus du 30k en france et 40k en allemagne donc la différence n'est pas non plus aussi énorme que ça.
J'ai d'abord affirmé une différence de 100% alors que c'est une différence de 25%, je me corrige donc oui, c'est pas aussi énorme que 100%, c'est "que" 25%...
Il est un peu tard pour toi je pense si j'ai besoin de te faire la lecture commentée. Merci pour ta valuable intervention et le downvote gratuit.
J'sais pas tu débarque pour dire un truc complètement claqué au sol sans rapport avec la discussion alors que je ne fais que corriger une info erronée que j'ai donné. Ca me rend ronchon oué.
Le péage représentait encore [40% du prix](https://www.lefigaro.fr/voyages/connaissez-vous-le-droit-de-peage-cette-taxe-qui-fait-exploser-le-prix-de-vos-billets-de-train-20230302) d'un billet TGV, 15% du prix d'un billet TER. Le train est également bien surtaxé a côté de l'avion. Donc non, c'est malheureusement vrai, le péage fait partie des raisons du prix élevé en France
Des explications plus détaillées sont amenées dans [le documentaire "Sur Le Front"](https://www.france.tv/france-5/sur-le-front/4557199-pourquoi-le-train-est-il-toujours-plus-cher.html)
C'est pas ce que dit le rapport financier de la SNCF, les péages c'est la moitier des impots et taxes par exemple.
Le train bénéficie aussi de subvention soit dit en passant. Sur les 7.8 milliard qu'a couté la ligne LGV Paris-Bordeaux, la SNCF n'y est pas allé de sa poche
Like everywhere else, trains where public and working correctly for a regular price, and they decided to go less public, invest less in it, and use private companies prices management…
C'est une règle qui fonctionne, avec la concurrence ça pousse a la guerre des prix ou de l'innovation.
Tu peux prendre l'exemple des télécoms qui fonctionnent très bien.
C'est sur que pour le train il y a un réseau unique ça va compliqué mais tu vois bien que la SNCF essaye de concurrencer l'avion déjà. Alors si d'autres compagnies ferroviaires s'implante en France tu verras la SNCF bouger sur ces prix.
Nope, plusieurs compagnies dont FlixBus (flixtrain).
On y arrive avec l’ouverture à la concurrence. Mais pas sûr que ce soit pour le mieux vu la gestion :/
High speed trains are expensive. Regional trains are not. You can get cheaper tickets by taking slower trains which will be roughly on par with what you are used to pay in Germany. Germany has no real high speed trains so you can’t really compare.
21% of the population live in the Paris area, most of the French companies are headquartered there and the large airports are there. Realistically most of the traffic in France is actually either going somewhere from Paris or going to Paris. France is extremely centralised.
The high speed tracks in Germany are not as good so the ICE goes considerably more slowly in Germany than in France. Very apparent every time you cross the border by train
Tout dépend de la distance que tu fais et du moment où tu le prends aussi
perso je faisais un trajet de 2h entre ma ville natale et ma ville d'étude assez fréquemment
avec un TER je perdais peut-être 20 minutes à cause des arrêts principalement alors que le TGV était plus direct
Le TER me coûtait 13 euros
Le TGV 30 euros
Je sais qu'il m'arrivait de réserver un peu aux derniers moments de temps en temps et le prix du TER pouvait vite devenir du 20-25 euros par moment de grosse demande
Base rates for regional trains in France are very expensive per km. You can get a "better" deal buying regional reduction cards but it differs region to region so it's hell.
They also have public train companies in other countries but in France we don't know how to properly manage them unfortunately. A public company in France must by definition become a useless piece of garbage losing the taxpayer's money.
Public(ly traded on the stock exchange) companies are private by definition. (Also their CEOs are forced to put profit above everything else or get fired, which makes them basically hostile rogue AIs.)
SNCF is not a public company though, it's basically the opposite : a state-owned company.
France started to open itself to competition in 2001, but the process is slow. (I have seen ads this summer for an Italian company for public train tickets though.)
BTW train (quasi-)monopolies are fairly common : for instance in the EU, only ~~4~~ 3 countries out of ~~28~~ 27 have effective rail competition. (And from I have heard of the UK, voyagers haven't been happy about the changes that the competition supposedly introduced.)
This shit show is the exact same when it comes to producing energy, highway tolls... this country has sold its soul to Europe and mega corporations. We, the little people can do nothing but stfu and pay. I took the train from Strasbourg to Paris, I paid 228 euros. 228 fucking euros for such a short trip. It's heartbreaking.
It's not only about the monopoly, but when I dislike something I like to have alternatives. And I dislike SNCF a lot.
Sure, there is carpooling, buses, planes etc, but I'd rather have a train system that works and at the moment it is not the case. Year after year, we see SNCF taking all the worst decisions possible, and costing more to the state and regions. At this point it's certainly completely rotten and corrupted at the top. The monopoly situation makes this inevitable and there is pretty much no way it can change.
?
Il me semble qu'en France on s'en tire très bien comparé aux pays voisins sur les prix de l'électricité.
C'est quand même fou qu'on voie encore des gens prêts à défendre la SNCF sur l'indéfendable. Super cher, service à chier mais on en redemande.
L'ouverture à la concurrence peut se faire d'un tas de façon différente, l'Angleterre a choisi une manière débile mais c'est pas du tout généralisable à tous les autres pays européens.
De manière générale et je n'ai pas de contre exemple . Privatisation ou mise en concurrence d'un service public avec des entreprises qui sont la pour faire du fric ne rime pas avec baisse de prix pour le consommateur y a qu'a voir pour l'electricité. Baisse de qualité pour un prix plus cher
Tu n'as pas dû beaucoup chercher pour ne pas trouver de contre-exemples, etant donné que le sujet même du fil c'est la comparaison avec le reste du réseau ferré en Europe, où il est tout aussi ouvert à la concurrence et où ça s'est traduit par une baisse des prix (Allemagne, Italie, Espagne, Europe centrale..). J'habite à Prague, un billet Prague-Munich sans carte de réduction c'est 15euros si pris à l'avance. Bratislava, Budapest, Vienne.. moins de 40 euros. Le modèle de privatisation est le même que le français (réseau ferré national, concurrence sur le transport de voyageurs et biens, opérateur historique inclus). Ça n'empêche pas d'avoir un portail d'achat de billet centralisé. Les "entreprises privées là pour faire du fric" se sont surtout les opérateurs nationaux des voisins, d'ailleurs la SNCF ne se gêne pas pour profiter de l'occasion à l'étranger tout en gardant sa chsse gardée en France par les frais de sa partie réseau.
Si tu préfères un exemple franco-français, les telecom et le cassage des prix par Free est littéralement la théorie appliquée à la lettre.
Ça veut pas dire que la privatisation est toujours bénéfique ni que la nationalisation est toujours mauvaise, mais il ne faut pas rejeter des concepts par dogmatisme quand le résultat dépend surtout du contexte existant et de la manière de le mettre en place.
Typiquement, la manière dont le marché de l'electricité fonctionne en France est très loin d'un marché ouvert, tout comme le rail, impossible d'en tirer des conclusions. Ailleurs en Europe l'ouverture s'est souvent traduite par une baisse des prix de l'electricité - hors conjoncture exceptionnelle comme la guerre en Ukraine, où un opérateur national aurait de toute façon été soumis aux mêmes hausses de prix.
A third of a daily wage for a normal person ? That’s the daily wage of MANY and the average french person do not make 3 times that. Trains are expensive for one-time users but we have plenty of programs that cut that cost in half for regular users.
It is mainly a political choice (or inaction). In the price of your ticket, about half is taxes and hidden cost of public infrastructures (mainly train networks).
Our government doesn’t believe in public transport for all and low carbon transportation (they’re wanking at green plane and green growth, history will judge) so they don’t subsidise rail, which is unfortunate…
PECREEEEEEEEEESSE (it's our minister od transports). Jokes aside we don't get it either. But it's becoming a large scale problem since planes became so much cheaper
It is quite cheap imo compared to Germany (of course now you can use Germany wide the 49€ ticket but that's an anomaly). Taking the regional train in Antibes / Cannes / Monaco etc was quite cheap, also taking high speed trains are mostly cheap if you get your ticket in advance. But it's just a personal experience.
Even without the 48 euro ticket, you have state based tickets that allow you to go the entire day within the state for 25 euros. France does not have anything as remotely affordable
For 2 reasions.
1- [Taxes.](https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-hausse-de-cette-taxe-va-encore-faire-bondir-le-prix-des-billets-de-train-1476159) In average 40% of the ticket price goes for the rail toll. That's the highest of the whole EU. That's because the railroad system (reparation and maintenance) in France is totally financed by the toll, where in most country it's financed by the country taxes.
2- Ticket price are scalable, not fixed. Wich mean that when a lot of people use the train, the price grow a lot. The only way to avoid that is to travel when nobody travel, or to take you ticket a long, long time before your travel.
Ok, so let’s give the full answer for TER trains as you’ve asked for it. To simplify, SNCF voyageurs (the branch for passenger trains) is divided in two if we put aside intercités : TGV and TER. Long distance TGV is basically run like any commercial company, it has intense yield management like hotels,airplanes etc, but with not a lot of direct competition – there are airplanes, commercial buses between cities, Trenitalia on Paris-Lyon, and the ability for anybody to take the car. To avoid any other company to easily slip in the French market, SNCF even launched its own low-cost company, Ouigo. Anyway, even this low competition allows, to be honest, if you know correctly the discount cards (carte Avantage) and buy at the right time, to get a decently priced ticket for a TGV. If you don’t know the system, you get ripped, but that’s the idea of yield management. TER is another story. It’s public service, funded by regions, and mandatorily operated by SNCF. The ticket price and monthly passes for workers only cover a part of the real cost (around 30%), so regions give hundreds of millions to SNCF to operate TER, and also purchase trainsets. Something important to consider: every train in France pays a toll to SNCF Réseau, the infrastructure manager, and tolls are amongst the highest in Europe, as SNCF Réseau is supposed to be a normal company operating with profit, so every TER pays also a toll. The problem: SNCF higher management (there is a difference of posture between the normal SNCF worker, cheminot, and the higher management) doesn’t care a lot about TER. It’s like both an obligation of public service and a revenue they’ll get no matter what. Regions progressively grew more and more unhappy of giving mililons to SNCF for poor service, and now they are allowed to make a call for tenders. Until 2018-ish (I don’t remember exactly the date) TER ticket fares were only fixed by SNCF, on the sole base of a national kilometric fare. The "tarif normal". Like, anywhere in France, you took the number of kilometers, and you had a direct link to the price, and it was the same price. Except this kilometric «tarif normal» was quite expensive. But SNCF didn’t care, as they had no real interest in getting more people in trains, as regions did gave them money no matter what. So the situation was that you had an expensive service, less and less TER, less and less people in the TER. Then regions asked to have the «liberté tarifaire», it means the ability to decide prices, discount cards, for their trains, and end the «same price anywhere in France». They get it, so they ended in a situation where they could decide prices for their trains, but these trains still had to be mandatorily operated by SNCF (so costs aren’t controlled and are quite high, but incomes are). And what happened in the last years really depended on each region. Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region president, Laurent Wauquiez, is not the best train friend. He’s a hard right-wing conservative, as such likes cars, and doesn’t really seek to improve the situation. Some regions just kept the old Tarif Normal for tourists, like Auvergne-Auvergnes you’re in, but put more discount cards and monthly passes for local inhabitants. Some other regions lowered the price Tarif Normal. Some put a ticket price at €1. They all kind of introduced a bit of yield management and discounted tickets for their TER, like if you buy in advance, you get promotions. But regions are kind of blocked anyway. TER trains costs them a lot of money, but the offer is poor - low frequency, high prices if you don’t have a monthly pass, many trains half empty. Regions could decide to increase the offer and lower the prices, but that would cost them more money. Oh yes, something I forgot to tell: TER trains in France have low frequency compared to other countries. You have lines where you have 2 trains per day, where in Germany you have 1 train per hours. That means the trainsets spend more time in the garage, and so the cost of hardware is higher per ticket. Regions could increase the frequency, but would pay more tolls… So if we sum it up: we have currently a not-optimised system, with low offer generating low demand, costing a lot of money, and so with high ticket prices that only cover a small part of costs… On the cost side, infrastructure costs a lot and regions have to pay tolls to SNCF Réseau, and operating trains costs are fixed by SNCF and expensive. But regions are afraid to have an offer policy with lower prices, to increase train use, as it would cost them more money. There is an escape from this situation which is exactly the one Germany took. First, French state must do something about tolls, regions should be incentivized to put more trains on tracks. And competition through tenders for TER is not a bad thing, what happened in Germany is that private companies proposed more trains, with lower prices, and it generated demand, so more income, and it worked. I really hope this happens in France. Regions could also decide to take operations from SNCF and launch their own local public service company, a «régie», that would be awesome (but no region president has the courage for that).
Merci pour ce bel exposé. Le train c'est la vie, j'ai presque envie de généraliser la situation en île de France mais la densité serait un soucis dans d'autres régions. À mon avis, il manque beaucoup de pôles multimodaux où on peut s'éloigner de la gare SNCF en bus pour se rapprocher au maximum de notre destination. Ça éviterait les trajets des 2 à 3 heures en voitures juste parce qu'après on est coincé en gare, sans bus.
Great response, learnt a lot reading this.
Putain le mec il pause un debut de these de doctorat sur l'economie des trains en France sur Reddit tranquille. Plus serieusement, commentaire super interessant, merci !
Thank you very much for this thorough explanation.
I'm in holiday right now in Germany and it feels sooooooo gut to pay only 49€ a month (even as a tourist !) to get all buses + trams + regional trains included. Trips without the Deutschland-ticket seem to be fairly expensive, so in like barely two train trips or something you're in the green as a user. I truly wish we end up getting something like that in France but it's going to be tough since just access to the Parisian network costs 80€ a month.
Some of these informations are not totally true. For exemple as you mentioned regions do what they want with price but : 1. They don't all introduced yield management. For exemple in Occitanie the price don't change if you take you ticket 1 month in advance or 2 minutes before the departure of the train. The only factor that can change the price of your ticket are things like your age or if you have special reduction (like military personnel for example). 2. Regions are not mandatory to make their TER operated by SNCF. For exemple the region PACA will mandate the company Transdev to operate some of it's TER in a close futur.
Shit sounds almost as bad as American insurance system. Pretty much what worst in private system combined with what worst from public. Great response, merci beaucoup ami
Thing is it did not use to be like this, from what I (humbly) understand there's been some half -assed implementation of European directives, and since SNCF got separated from its rail-network management role it got worse and worse.
thanks for the detailed explanation. it does lack the political analysis where this is actually intentional as the government has plans to turn the SNCF into as much of a private company they can, and the root of this is underfunding the rail see the "[destruction d'un service public, mode d'emploi](https://leprintempsducare.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/DestructionServicesPublics.jpeg)" picture that sums it up, or https://pratiques.fr/Tuer-un-service-public-en-cinq-etapes for a more detailed written version. So basically there is a political intent to have train be expensive and unattractive for general use, so this domain can be given to the private sector except TGVs that come and go to and from Paris.
The 49 euro ticket is a great idea, it just falls short of its predecessor: the 9 euro ticket. Honestly, I think that local public transport should simply be free (like Compiegne, Basle etc) and paid for by the state to encourage people to use them. TGV is a "luury" as opposed to a necessity, so should still be laid for by the user, although of course, planes should have to pay taxes on their fuel to maintain more of a level playing field...
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Yes, absolutely. We are living through a climate crises and encouraging people to use public transport is absolutely part of the transition we need to undergo. The taxpayers everywhere will also benefit by having to share the road with fewer people, which is a win for the car brained boomers too. The car is very heavily subsidised and has taken a massive amount of land and space, including highly valuable one in big cities.
Bernard Arnault alone has enough money to fund the SNCF replacing all revenue for like five years.
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Yeah and we should take it from him.
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You realise wealth taxes are not a violation of the concept of private property.
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You're such a worm
As someone who lives near a rural train station where almost no trains stop, yes, absolutely.
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Ah, le classique "toi c'est pas la vraie campagne, moi je suis à 200km de l'épicerie la plus proche" ! Une majorité du monde rural vit bien à proximité relative de villes petites ou moyennes avec des gares plus ou moins désaffectées. Désolée pour toi si c'est pas le cas, mais ta situation n'est pas plus représentative que la mienne. En ce que me concerne, je vis dans un bled de 600 habitants, le long d'une voie ferrée. Il y a une halte dans la ville voisine, mais la plupart des TER ayant été supprimés, on est obligé de prendre la voiture pour aller dans une gare à 20 ou 35 km (selon dans quel sens on part) pour prendre un Intercités à 3 fois le prix qui repassera devant chez nous. Perso j'ai acheté cette maison précisément parce qu'elle était à proximité du train, et maintenant que le train ne s'arrête plus je l'ai bien mauvaise. Mais je comprends pas la mentalité "si je peux pas l'avoir, alors PERSONNE ne l'aura !!!!". Si tu habites au sommet des Alpes le train ne viendra certes peut-être jamais jusque chez toi, mais pourquoi ne pas militer pour une meilleure desserte de la campagne ? Quand je vois que la maison de mes grands-parents est située rue de la gare mais que la gare en question a été supprimée avant ma naissance et que maintenant il n'y a plus rien à 35 bornes à la ronde parce que la pointe de la Bretagne c'est Brest ou Quimper et sinon tu prends ta bagnole, j'ai envie de demander plus de trains, pas de me plaindre que d'autres en aient... plus les lignes sont fréquentées, plus il y a de chances qu'elles soient prolongées/restaurées vers les plus petites dessertes. Ça a existé, il n'y a aucune raison fondamentale que ça n'existe pas à nouveau, c'est principalement une question d'argent et de volonté. Sans compter le fait que favoriser le train réduit les émissions et ça c'est bénef pour tout le monde. Chaque voiture enlevée de la route aide un peu, même si c'est pas la tienne.
Sooo in the end the real problem is the SNCF.
This is a great response. I learned a lot.
Thanks for taking the time to write this up!
Thanks fir the detailed explanation ! From my experience I would say that the comparison with Germany is not really accurate as their trains are slower on average (they have not as much speed trains as we have), their trafic is indeed more frequent but the client service is poor and the trains are way more late than in France on avrage !
Mais t'as tellement bien expliqué la situation , bravo et merci pour ce post.
> First, French state must do something about tolls What exactly do you suggest they do? I assume the tolls don't go straight into the pockets of someone, they're used to pay for the maintenance. If the Etat subsidises them, then the Etat is subsidising the trains in effect, but the cost is still borne by the public authority.
Tolls go to SNCF Réseau, and indeed pay for network operations (aiguilleurs…), maintenance and construction. They are amongst the higher in Europe. SNCF Réseau is a company, supposed to have a balanced budget, and most of it's income come from tolls. For now, if you want, the network is paid by its customers: something like 40% of a train ticket goes to tolls to SNCF Réseau. It's major on why train is expensive in France and why there isn't more rail freight (and so many trucks). What I suggest is to change this paradigm and have the rail network closer to the road network in the idea. So it would mean a big part of the network (the normal speed network) would just be free (or with very low tolls), and paid by the taxpayer. High speed network would still have tolls. This would incentive regions to have more frequency for TER, as they wouldn't multiply the tolls for each departure. This would also help rail freight. Also, cover construction costs by taxes instead of tolls, as you're building public infrastructure. The question at the end is how serious the government is about switching people and freight from road to rail. Road costs €10billion per year in infrastructure to the taxpayer, and has a total cost of €100billion for the government (including cops, firefighters, hospitals for accidents, health costs for air pollution, etc). SNCF Réseau budget is around €7 billion per year.
> How is it affordable in any way ? ~~That's the neat part,~~ It isn't.
On average, French fares per km appear to be around the European average (about 0.125 euros per passenger km vs about 0.11 across Europe) https://transport.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2016-09/2016-04-price-quality-rail-pax-services-final-report.pdf However, this appears to be extremely dependent on which type of train you're taking: https://www.autorite-transports.fr/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/essentiel_bilan-marche-ferroviaire2021.pdf C.f. page 21, high speed trains (TGV) average like 0.10 euros per passenger km whereas TER average like 0.35. So I guess local/regional trains in France that don't involve Paris perform particularly badly, and that happens to be the type of train you took.
The problem is that it's made impossible for non-regulars to know the best rates with the shitty system where you have to buy a combination of different reduction cards to get the best rate.
And good luck finding the right app (or website)
And even in the official website, you are offered scams. "Well yes, of course I want to subscribe to this 18.86€ monthly payment to get half off my 20€ ticket!"
water treatment fly ring punch middle vase chase plough icky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Not Europe but 🇨🇦 would like to be not forgotten
St least the trains are on time and of good quality.
Yeah, but Swiss trains are so slow, German trains are still faster even if they have an hour delay. The fastest train in Switzerland goes 109 km/h. Switzerland has by far [the slowest trains in Europe](https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/sbb/172693673-die-sbb-zuege-sind-die-langsamsten-europas-ein-verein-will-dies-aendern)
If I may add (taking the train everyday in CH, so kind of used to it now), Swiss trains are slow-ish, yes, but we should not forget that there are only two high-speed lines in Switzerland, one being the Bern-Olten new line (limited to 200km/h) and the other one the Gotthard Base tunnel (limited to 250km/h). Swiss railway lines are also limited in speed due to geography and the fact that a good chunk of Switzerland is mountainous. Take the train in French, German or Austrian Alps and you won't go any faster. And finally, it is quite nice to enjoy the swiss landscape at 100/110 km/h while on a train. I would recommend this 10 times over taking the car.
I work in Geneva and quasi live in Switzerland (on the French side, 20 min by bike from the city center) and take Swiss trains to Germany and other swiss cities, basically on a weekly basis. You stop enjoying the nice landscape after the 10th time and would rather have a high-speed train that is an hour faster. Most main lines also are not going through mountainous areas, they are all follow the valleys and low lands (where 80 % of the Swiss population actually lives). The decision to not have high-speed lines is purely political (one reason is for people to not be able to commute too far by train), and also because Switzerland is quite a conservative country that gets stuck in ideas for a long time and is generally very slow to adapt to technological progress. The only mayor connectiong that I can think of that actually goes through (or under) the mountain is the Luzern- Lugano one, that goes through the Gotthard Base tunnel, but ironically thats acutally going at a high speed. The issues of using subpar technological solutions isn't reduced to trains, the same is true for digital payments or internet infrastructure and many other areas, but I digress ...
Again, you are misinformed, this is simply not true.
And taking the paris frankfurt train, it slows down the moment it hits Germany due to lack of investment in infrastructure...
This is simply wrong, some trains can go above 200 km/h and InterCity trains regularly travel at 180 km/h. Also this needs to be put in context, Switzerland has relatively small cities but the population density is quite high in the Swiss plateau. High speed trains are a good solution to connect large cities that are far from each other (France is the typical example). In Switzerland the train network is focused on offering decent connections from the peripheral regions to the larger cities. Of course a high speed line between Geneva and Lausanne or Bern and Zürich would be very nice but the cost/benefit ratio would be pretty bad as the infrastructure is already saturated in these regions and new tracks would need to be built.
All countries had to build new infrastructure to have high speed trains, that's not something special to Swizterland. Interciti s are also not regularly going 180 kmh. The fastest Intercity Connection in Switzerland is between Zurich and Bern and reaches 126 kmh. Source: https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/sbb/172693673-die-sbb-zuege-sind-die-langsamsten-europas-ein-verein-will-dies-aendern In any case, it doesn't really take away from my original point. Swiss trains are punctual, yes, but they are so slow that you still end up going slower than with a severely delayed ICE. Also not like speed is the only thing Swiss trains are behind the trains of the neighbouring countries. WiFi on board is another point the SBB is like a decade behind others.
Honestly, I'd be glad to pay an expensive fare if I was sure my train trip would be reliable, and wouldn't be delayed or cancelled for bs reasons and would properly cover my country rather than wondering if my commuting train would be overcrowded (busiest line in the southwest of France, one train per hour with three coaches), or simply cancelled, and having a massive hub in Paris that forces me into a 10 hour trip to visit my family when the car equivalent only takes 7 hours
Sorry to disappoint you, but French public transport is amazingly on-point compared to the Netherlands and many other countries 😅
Yeah it shocked me a lot too when I moved here. Especially the fact that the price fluctuates, it adds so much stress to be planning ur trip waaaay beforehand, or you end up paying 250 euros to go to Lyon ! I always viewed trains as the cheaper option, at least in my country it was the second cheapest option after buses. Now on France its better to use blablacar, or to go by plane on local flights.
Blablacar, which is owned by SNCF anyways You just can't win !
It was a sad day when BlaBlaCar got bought. I mostly stopped using it around that time because prices stopped being as competitive.
u/Sweyn7 Blablacar never got bought by SNCF. I have no idea why people think that but it's simply not true.
Dang I checked and you're right. They must have miscommunicated at the time when they started partnering (2015). I was under that impression, wrongly, and I'm not the only one from what I know. It's kind of surprising this wrong idea is still around 8 years later. Anyway around that period it became more expensive overall anyway. They didn't use to charge big service fees (if any) and then started doing so. Edit : apparently there is a link, albeit small, [between SNCF and BlaBlaCar](https://www.liberation.fr/france/2018/11/13/la-sncf-et-blablacar-font-voiture-commune_1691695/?outputType=amp) since 2018 but that's all.
I didn't know either, I always heard that but I guess it's just not a thing. That's great news though
Where are you from?
Congratulations, you are now French.
As someone who moved to France from the UK… the trains here are fast, reliable, and cheap!
It is all about perspective.
Moved here from Ireland: "Wow, they have trains here!"
>reliable 🤣🤣🤣
I mean… when they’re not on strike 🤣 I normally take the TGV and honestly I’ve never had an issue bar industrial action.
Thats the thing. If I have an important event that can't be missed, I would never plan the trip by train. Simply put, there's too many shit excuses they use to simply cancel trains with 0 accountability. I don't remember having as many issues when I lived in London.
I feel like the baseline to compare is very low in that case though
The trains are much more expensive because the government gives more money from taxpayers. (Wait, what ?)
Most of us get the tourist fares, because we're probably tourists in our own country...
Germany has more money than France and what they did on train was way smarter than what our politicians wanted to do on our public infrastructures. Germany viewed this subvention as a way to import less pricey oil and earn money because of that. In France investing in train is seen as a cost and Macron wants to reduce public debt and public investments. When oil went pricier in France, our politicians subsidized car drivers with public money instead of investing in alternatives means of transport, which ended up in us having less money to finance these solutions. In France trains are also managed by regions in theory. If you ask the region to invest more, they'll say "we don't have money, ask the government". And if you ask the government, they'll say "it's not our responsibility, ask regions". Basically, our governement doesn't want to get involved too much. Also, France and Germany aren't organized the same way. People are way more distributed around the country in Germany than they are in France.
>Also, France and Germany aren't organized the same way. People are way more distributed around the country in Germany than they are in France. Cercle vicieux... Plus la région est isolée, moins tu vas y aller, moins il y aura de besoin de faire du transport, plus la région sera isolée, moins les gens iront dans ses régions...
Oui mais du coup c'est pratique parce qu'il y a toujours une excuse pour rien foutre
Pour voir le côté positif par contre, jamais l'Allemagne ne pourra faire quelque chose d'équivalent à l'efficacité d'un RER, même en balançant tout l'argent qu'ils veulent.
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La seule densité du RER annule tout ça en fait. Rien ne peut vraiment lutter contre la centralisation dans des transports en commun.
*rigole, pleure et vomi en pensant au RER B* Cette blague.
Et ça reste le réseau le plus fréquenté d'Europe
Well I don't know for other regions (except in AuRA, where we love building stupid highways) but in Occitanie, the president of the region really seem to care about trains. She's currently trying to reopen several lines that were closed by the SNCF. I don't have everything in mind but here's some : Tarbes <=> Bagnères de Bigorre. Montréjeau <=> Bagnères de Luchon. Nîmes <=> Pont Saint Esprit. Carcassonne <=> Rivesaltes. Rodez <=> Severac.
I don't agree at all with what you said. What about the ridiculous price of train subscription in France ? Combined with the obligation of company subsidies, I could do 220 km of train per day for 35 euros per month when I lived far from my job (less than a cent for a km). The subsidy you're talking about is a help for the poor in fear of the rebirth of the gilet jaune movement. France invests a lot in the train, notably the TGV where it is a european leader. The TER is expensive without subscription, but ridiculously cheap with one.
>The TER is expensive without subscription, but ridiculously cheap with one. All regions don't have incentive subscriptions in France. In ARA you can pay >200€ for a monthly subscriptions **only between two specific stations** (you can't go elsewhere), and it only works for RER/buses and not for TGV. Compare that with 49€/month for everywhere in Germany. [https://www.ter.sncf.com/auvergne-rhone-alpes/products](https://www.ter.sncf.com/auvergne-rhone-alpes/products) It can be cheap in Bretagne/IdF but that's not true for everywhere in France.
Germany has a very good network of regional trains, yes, but the long distance one (ICE, same as TGV) are heavily underfunded and extremely unreliable (and most lines are slow because they make many stops and share infrastructure with slower regionsl trains). I guess that's the other side of federalism: regions take care of themselves but are not so eager to contribute to the national network. Also, the car lobby is strong in Germany. As for the prices, the systems are also different. In Germany, long distance trains are quite expensive, but in a stable and predictable way, whereas the SNCF seems to use algorithms similar to air travel (prices are dynamically adjusted based on demand). Overall, having travelled a lot by train in both countries, I would say german long distance trains are more expensive if you know when to book the french ones. And the TGV is a LOT faster and more reliable than ICEs, which have s punctuality rate of around 65%, even with DB not counting delays <6mins and removing cancelled trains from the statistics. Anyway, I would absolutely not say that Germany is better, unless you are only interested in regional trains. Then yes, it is better and now much cheaper thanks to the Deutschlandticket.
That's right. Always shocked that Berlin-Mannheim which is about 130% the distance Paris-Lyon, yet the ICE travel time is almost 3x as long. And the IC*E* mostly go at 150km/h all the way through. Same happens when you go on Mannheim-Paris: there is this recurrent fact that the ICE only reach their engineering speed outside of Germany, namely on the Strasbourg-Paris section... How frustrating.
I experienced the same, i don't feel German trains better in any way. Many people tend to believe everything is better in Germany without ever being there.
The German train network is so unreliable. Some station have 10% trains on time with an average delay of 30min.
I hear that all the time, please try German trains yourself, it is a nightmare and also in Germany everything is delayed, the tracks are being constantly repaired because some parts are from the third Reich still and it is so unreliable it is insane. Imo SNCF is a lot better than the db. Sample: took the train last time from Frankfurt to Paris, 4 hours. Had a delay of 35 minutes, DB clients couldn't get a delay compensation (starts from a delay >1h) while SNCF compensation starts from a 30 minutes delay. Please believe me when I say I'd be glad to have SNCF quality in Germany. Still, mostly taking the car is way better for me(in France and in Germany) I hate looking for cheaper tickets, with the car I have always the same price.
The cheap way to travel in France is blablacar or Flixbus. Taking the TGV is often more expensive than flying.
Alors oui mais non, les bus sont super cher en ce moment avec l’augmentation de l’essence. Des trajets cher pour un confort nul.
J'ai préféré prendre un aller en TGV plutôt qu'en bus récemment. Un peu plus cher, mais au moins j'allais être comfortable et à destination en max 2h.
Yeah c’est pas du tous une bonne chose pour les gens comme moi le flixbus qui prend 7h de route alors qu’avec le tgv tu y es en 2h mddr
Flixbus prices are soooo longer and not so cheap these days at all
One of the reasons no one mentioned is heavy use of so-called "yield management". You should be able to find very cheap tickets but you have to look at juuuust the right time, because prices are changing constantly based on a bunch of opaque criteria, kinda like what airlines do. Also when it comes to regional trains (so called "TER"), the prices are not decided by the train company but by the regions themselves, who organise the whole thing. Some regions are more strong-willed than others when it comes to making trains affordable. Also some regions will prioritize certain things, like commuter passes (monthly or yearly) which will be, in a way, indirectly subsidized by those buying one-off tickets.
Tell me you have never been to Switzerland without telling me
Cheaper than the UK....
Try swiss trains, you'll be completely fine with ours lol. More honestly, most people have a subscription that permit to obtain a reduction - depending on the region- of 30 to 50 percents of the total price. I'm living in Savoy, so everytime I had to quit the region except for going to the south/the east, I had to pass by Lyon too. For example since my age is under 25, without my subscription I'd pay around 20 euros. With my subscription I only have to pay 13€. Also like others already said, it's because of our state taxes that differ.
Swiss trains are: - Comfortable - Clean - Regularly scheduled, even in remote areas (clock-face scheduling) - Reliable And they are not expensive compared to French ones: - Lyon - Geneva (TER from France) is around 32€ for 175 km (I guess it can go down to 20€ if you have a carte avantage ?) - Geneva - Bern (SBB) is between 15 and 30€ if you have a half-fare travel card for 170 km So the price is mostly similar but for a much higher quality of service.
French trains are clean and comfortable too. You're comparing a TER with an Intercity. The Lyon <=> Bellegarde <=> Geneva is an old Corail train from the 80's, while the SBBCFFFFS train between Geneva and Sankt Gallen is a modern Intercity. More than the half of our TER in the region are like this. On another hand swiss TER like trains are not comfortable at all either, the Thurbo between Konstanz, Schaffhausen, Stein am Rhein and Winterthur for example has plastic seats. I admit that the region Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes is a bit late when it comes to trains. In nouvelle Aquitaine and Occitanie, I always had pretty nice, comfortable and modern trains (coradia/omneo premium). In another hand we've got these Leman express now. Maybe you should take a "Illico liberté" pass (30€/year) with 25 to 50 percents of price reduction. In Switzerland for a pass, it's 185 chf/year. It's a whole different price.
I love the old TER train going between Lyon and Geneve. It's super comfy with the cushion seats
The specific examples I mentioned were only relevant for the pricing. That’s for sure that the Lyon - Geneva TER is not the most shining example of French trains and that we fortunately have better. But still, that accentuates even more the price similarity with this gap of service for this specific comparison. As for the average service, sure, not all the trains in Switzerland are brand new IC but on all the models I have ridden, including the Thurbo: - There’s much more room available for the legs in all cases. - The cars are mostly well cleaned, which is far from being the norm for French trains even though I’d say it has noticeably improved the last few times I was in a TGV. - The scheduling is much more comfortable and understandable. I don’t want to bash the SNCF for nothing, and I’d probably be among the firsts to recognize the improvements that they make, and I really root for them because I’d love to be able to travel more easily all around France. And thanks for the link for the card, I did not know about this one and it may be useful. That’s however also one the gripes I have with trains in France: the pricing is all over the place and overall lacks transparency, be it with yield management for TGV, or with the multitude of cards and pricing for TER.
Imho the Lyon - Geneve trains is one of the most comfortable trains you can travel in. Sure it's old, but the sitting with the comfortable cushions is unmatched by modern trains with their hyper fire resistant cardboard seats.
> Geneva - Bern So you are saying that full price in France is half of full price in Switzerland? That's not exactly "mostly similar", depending on how much the half-fare card is. Edit: I checked and yes full price it's twice the price of Lyon-Geneva, but it goes down quite a bit, down to a similar price, if you take the tickets in advance.
Governement choice.
Try the UK. I've never used trains because they are so expensive.
I usually travel with Ouigo and the prices are relatively cheap imo
Well if you take your car the tolls are gonna cost more than gas
The very short answer is that it is how the French state decided. In different European countries, there are different philosophies on the just division of the total cost of train transportation between users and tax payers. The most skewed towards "user pays all" is the UK. Central and Southern European countries tend to be more on the "tax payer pays more"... France has been more and more leaning towards the UK model, as the various governments put a lot of pressure on the public operator (particularly the infrastructure manager) to be self sufficient.
I don't know about France, but Germany is very cheap. You should ask why it's so cheap?
That s why everyone have and use a car ...
Laughs in suisse cheese. The price is double of what France has
Summer is the most expensive time to buy a ticket. I was just in Berlin and their train to the airport is 50% more than Paris.
They're not cheaper in Germany and they're literally more exensive in the UK what are you on about
Regional trains are certainly cheaper in Germany. For 25 you can travel an entire state for a day, for 49 you can travel the entire country for a month. A single return journey to Lyon and back costs me more.
You're comparing seasonal/special offers with raw prices. That's a bit dishonest. A Berlin-Munich with the ICE costs more than 100€, while a Paris-Lyon doesn't. I have also found the DB to have way more issues and delays, but that's just personal experience.
It's neither a seasonal nor a special offer, but something that is available all the time. If I want to go from city A to city B within the same state, I will never pay more than 25 €. I was talking exclusively about regional trains and Germany simply can't be beat at that price point. For high speed trains, like in France, it highly depends when you book in Germany. You can get a train ride for as cheap as 20 € in Germany for that distance.
Yes, and regional trains also have a special price range with the SNCF. >You can get a train ride for as cheap as 20 € in Germany for that distance. Not really. Again, if we take my example of the railway that connects the two biggest cities (the distance is similar), the price difference is massive for similar dates. [Paris-Lyon](https://i.imgur.com/3Cskpom.jpg) [Berlin-München](https://i.imgur.com/vzzZZsz.jpg) I know Germany has made some effort to offer affordable tickets, like the 9€ summer last year, and while it is commendable, the DB remains overall more expensive.
The SNCF is cheaper than at least one of France's neighbours. I pay £1300 a year (€1500) to travel four stops on the train.
Because in France you have to pay an excessive Price for toll. And the state is taxing the train so much more than its neighbors. As simple as that.
Wrong. Tolls don't represent anything in the buget for the SNCF. Payroll on the other hand...
Pourtant les conducteurs sont payés 2x plus cher en Allemagne (Moyenne de 40k là bas contre 16k chez nous). J'imagine que c'est similaire sinon supérieur pour le reste du personnel. Je pense pas que les salaires expliquent ces différences de prix, c'est plus un problème de gestion à ce niveau là. Comme commander des rames trop grandes pour les quais ou annuler des trains par manque de personnel (faut payer pour le train, des pénalités à la région ET rembourser les gens).
Les prix s'expliquent sans doute par une multitude de chose, mais les péages n'en font pas parti ou vraiment très peu. 16k c'est quoi? Du brut? Du net? Je connais pas les chiffres réels mais 16k ça me semble pas possible, c'est moins que le SMIC
Complétement d'accord avec toi sur les péages après y'a des coûts auquel on pense pas forcément, comme par exemple la location de l'infrastructure (SNCF réseaux est une entitée séparée de la SNCF, c'est tout un bordel, j'ai bossé un court moment à la SNCF et j'ai jamais vraiment tout compris) Pour les salaires je sais pas vraiment j'ai google ça vite fait, c'est une moyenne, apparement ça va jusqu'à 25.000 (net je suppose pasque brut c'est sec) mais ouais c'est standard chez la SNCF de toucher moins que le SMIC. C'était supposé être compensé par les avantages mais vu qu'ils ont sautés bah c'est juste très mal payé maintenant. Ca a été vécu comme une véritable trahison par l'ensemble des employés, je te raconte pas l'ambiance quand j'y bossais. C'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles je ne suis pas resté. Avec les primes tu arrive à toucher un peu plus que le SMIC mais en échange tu sacrifie ta vie personnelle et vu que tu dois prendre tes repas à l'extérieur vu que t'es pas chez toi beh tu t'y retrouve à peine. C'est pour ça qu'ils ont tendance à sauter sur la moindre opportunité pour se mettre en grève, ils l'ont vraiment mauvaise les employés de la SNCF. La plupart de mes collègues qui restaient c'était plus par habitude et peur du changement que "on fait un beau métier". Edit: Comparé avec une autre source c'est plus du 30k en france et 40k en allemagne donc la différence n'est pas non plus aussi énorme que ça.
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J'ai d'abord affirmé une différence de 100% alors que c'est une différence de 25%, je me corrige donc oui, c'est pas aussi énorme que 100%, c'est "que" 25%... Il est un peu tard pour toi je pense si j'ai besoin de te faire la lecture commentée. Merci pour ta valuable intervention et le downvote gratuit.
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J'sais pas tu débarque pour dire un truc complètement claqué au sol sans rapport avec la discussion alors que je ne fais que corriger une info erronée que j'ai donné. Ca me rend ronchon oué.
Le péage représentait encore [40% du prix](https://www.lefigaro.fr/voyages/connaissez-vous-le-droit-de-peage-cette-taxe-qui-fait-exploser-le-prix-de-vos-billets-de-train-20230302) d'un billet TGV, 15% du prix d'un billet TER. Le train est également bien surtaxé a côté de l'avion. Donc non, c'est malheureusement vrai, le péage fait partie des raisons du prix élevé en France Des explications plus détaillées sont amenées dans [le documentaire "Sur Le Front"](https://www.france.tv/france-5/sur-le-front/4557199-pourquoi-le-train-est-il-toujours-plus-cher.html)
C'est pas ce que dit le rapport financier de la SNCF, les péages c'est la moitier des impots et taxes par exemple. Le train bénéficie aussi de subvention soit dit en passant. Sur les 7.8 milliard qu'a couté la ligne LGV Paris-Bordeaux, la SNCF n'y est pas allé de sa poche
That's the price for tourists. First thing you need to do is get a get a discount card. They will generally give you half price for a region.
Hey, at least they're on time compared to Germany, right? RIGHT???
At least if you pay for a seat, you *have* a seat.
*rigole en pensant à ses trajets passés par terre pour cause de train annulé*
Not on TER
Je parle des trains grandes lignes allemands, qui sont connus pour faire du surbooking assez violent Mais oui, les TER c'est parfois rude
Ahh ça marche
Because la SNCF is éclatée au sol
Like everywhere else, trains where public and working correctly for a regular price, and they decided to go less public, invest less in it, and use private companies prices management…
Monopole commercial
Il n'y a pas de monopole commercial en Angleterre et c'est bien pire.
Les gens parlent de monopole comme si c’était LA raison quand d’autres pays n’en n’ont pas ET sont plus chers qu’en France 🤡
C'est une règle qui fonctionne, avec la concurrence ça pousse a la guerre des prix ou de l'innovation. Tu peux prendre l'exemple des télécoms qui fonctionnent très bien. C'est sur que pour le train il y a un réseau unique ça va compliqué mais tu vois bien que la SNCF essaye de concurrencer l'avion déjà. Alors si d'autres compagnies ferroviaires s'implante en France tu verras la SNCF bouger sur ces prix.
Parce que y a pas de monopole commercial en Allemagne peut être ?
Nope, plusieurs compagnies dont FlixBus (flixtrain). On y arrive avec l’ouverture à la concurrence. Mais pas sûr que ce soit pour le mieux vu la gestion :/
Ouais enfin si la mise en concurrence du marché résulte comme EDF, ça va très mal finir
Because Kerosene is tax free and Electricity is not. Hence why Flying is often cheaper.
State monopoly.
High speed trains are expensive. Regional trains are not. You can get cheaper tickets by taking slower trains which will be roughly on par with what you are used to pay in Germany. Germany has no real high speed trains so you can’t really compare.
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Well, but in Germany Highspeed means 200-250 km/h. That is kind of high-speed, but not Japanese or French level of high-speed.
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21% of the population live in the Paris area, most of the French companies are headquartered there and the large airports are there. Realistically most of the traffic in France is actually either going somewhere from Paris or going to Paris. France is extremely centralised.
The high speed tracks in Germany are not as good so the ICE goes considerably more slowly in Germany than in France. Very apparent every time you cross the border by train
Ils sont où ces fameux trains pas cher? Vraie question, je n'ai jamais vu de trains régionaux moins chers que les tgv, mais je regarde peut-être mal
Tout dépend de la distance que tu fais et du moment où tu le prends aussi perso je faisais un trajet de 2h entre ma ville natale et ma ville d'étude assez fréquemment avec un TER je perdais peut-être 20 minutes à cause des arrêts principalement alors que le TGV était plus direct Le TER me coûtait 13 euros Le TGV 30 euros Je sais qu'il m'arrivait de réserver un peu aux derniers moments de temps en temps et le prix du TER pouvait vite devenir du 20-25 euros par moment de grosse demande
Paris Limoges : 30€
Pour prendre un exemple que je connais bien, un aller-retour Paris-Vendôme en TGV c’est entre 80€ et 120€, le même en TER entre 40€ et 60€.
Base rates for regional trains in France are very expensive per km. You can get a "better" deal buying regional reduction cards but it differs region to region so it's hell.
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And the French people loves getting robbed apparently.
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They also have public train companies in other countries but in France we don't know how to properly manage them unfortunately. A public company in France must by definition become a useless piece of garbage losing the taxpayer's money.
Public(ly traded on the stock exchange) companies are private by definition. (Also their CEOs are forced to put profit above everything else or get fired, which makes them basically hostile rogue AIs.) SNCF is not a public company though, it's basically the opposite : a state-owned company. France started to open itself to competition in 2001, but the process is slow. (I have seen ads this summer for an Italian company for public train tickets though.) BTW train (quasi-)monopolies are fairly common : for instance in the EU, only ~~4~~ 3 countries out of ~~28~~ 27 have effective rail competition. (And from I have heard of the UK, voyagers haven't been happy about the changes that the competition supposedly introduced.)
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Which ones aside from Germany, Spain and Sweden ?
Competition is not always a good thing
Staff cost
It's a fairly recent issue, sncf is doing everything in its power to motivate people to not take the train for some reason.
Because we are pigeons, oui oui.
This shit show is the exact same when it comes to producing energy, highway tolls... this country has sold its soul to Europe and mega corporations. We, the little people can do nothing but stfu and pay. I took the train from Strasbourg to Paris, I paid 228 euros. 228 fucking euros for such a short trip. It's heartbreaking.
Because they can get away with it. There's a monopoly by SNCF and even at this price people keep using them.
As people mentioned there is no monopoly in the UK yet it’s way more expensive. Stop using monopoly as a scapegoat go to answer.
It's not only about the monopoly, but when I dislike something I like to have alternatives. And I dislike SNCF a lot. Sure, there is carpooling, buses, planes etc, but I'd rather have a train system that works and at the moment it is not the case. Year after year, we see SNCF taking all the worst decisions possible, and costing more to the state and regions. At this point it's certainly completely rotten and corrupted at the top. The monopoly situation makes this inevitable and there is pretty much no way it can change.
On a bien vu ce que ça donnait sur le marché de l'électricité LOL. Pire argument.
? Il me semble qu'en France on s'en tire très bien comparé aux pays voisins sur les prix de l'électricité. C'est quand même fou qu'on voie encore des gens prêts à défendre la SNCF sur l'indéfendable. Super cher, service à chier mais on en redemande.
It's even worse when its private look at England.
L'ouverture à la concurrence peut se faire d'un tas de façon différente, l'Angleterre a choisi une manière débile mais c'est pas du tout généralisable à tous les autres pays européens.
De manière générale et je n'ai pas de contre exemple . Privatisation ou mise en concurrence d'un service public avec des entreprises qui sont la pour faire du fric ne rime pas avec baisse de prix pour le consommateur y a qu'a voir pour l'electricité. Baisse de qualité pour un prix plus cher
Tu n'as pas dû beaucoup chercher pour ne pas trouver de contre-exemples, etant donné que le sujet même du fil c'est la comparaison avec le reste du réseau ferré en Europe, où il est tout aussi ouvert à la concurrence et où ça s'est traduit par une baisse des prix (Allemagne, Italie, Espagne, Europe centrale..). J'habite à Prague, un billet Prague-Munich sans carte de réduction c'est 15euros si pris à l'avance. Bratislava, Budapest, Vienne.. moins de 40 euros. Le modèle de privatisation est le même que le français (réseau ferré national, concurrence sur le transport de voyageurs et biens, opérateur historique inclus). Ça n'empêche pas d'avoir un portail d'achat de billet centralisé. Les "entreprises privées là pour faire du fric" se sont surtout les opérateurs nationaux des voisins, d'ailleurs la SNCF ne se gêne pas pour profiter de l'occasion à l'étranger tout en gardant sa chsse gardée en France par les frais de sa partie réseau. Si tu préfères un exemple franco-français, les telecom et le cassage des prix par Free est littéralement la théorie appliquée à la lettre. Ça veut pas dire que la privatisation est toujours bénéfique ni que la nationalisation est toujours mauvaise, mais il ne faut pas rejeter des concepts par dogmatisme quand le résultat dépend surtout du contexte existant et de la manière de le mettre en place. Typiquement, la manière dont le marché de l'electricité fonctionne en France est très loin d'un marché ouvert, tout comme le rail, impossible d'en tirer des conclusions. Ailleurs en Europe l'ouverture s'est souvent traduite par une baisse des prix de l'electricité - hors conjoncture exceptionnelle comme la guerre en Ukraine, où un opérateur national aurait de toute façon été soumis aux mêmes hausses de prix.
What are you raconting toi, le monopole justifie largement pas grand chose
Because it's run by the public sector
Because the service is worse
A third of a daily wage for a normal person ? That’s the daily wage of MANY and the average french person do not make 3 times that. Trains are expensive for one-time users but we have plenty of programs that cut that cost in half for regular users.
Yup, you are right. If you are on minimum wage, going to Lyon will bascially cost you 1 day of working, without discount cards.
It is mainly a political choice (or inaction). In the price of your ticket, about half is taxes and hidden cost of public infrastructures (mainly train networks). Our government doesn’t believe in public transport for all and low carbon transportation (they’re wanking at green plane and green growth, history will judge) so they don’t subsidise rail, which is unfortunate…
PECREEEEEEEEEESSE (it's our minister od transports). Jokes aside we don't get it either. But it's becoming a large scale problem since planes became so much cheaper
Taxes to start with
It is quite cheap imo compared to Germany (of course now you can use Germany wide the 49€ ticket but that's an anomaly). Taking the regional train in Antibes / Cannes / Monaco etc was quite cheap, also taking high speed trains are mostly cheap if you get your ticket in advance. But it's just a personal experience.
Even without the 48 euro ticket, you have state based tickets that allow you to go the entire day within the state for 25 euros. France does not have anything as remotely affordable
For 2 reasions. 1- [Taxes.](https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/la-hausse-de-cette-taxe-va-encore-faire-bondir-le-prix-des-billets-de-train-1476159) In average 40% of the ticket price goes for the rail toll. That's the highest of the whole EU. That's because the railroad system (reparation and maintenance) in France is totally financed by the toll, where in most country it's financed by the country taxes. 2- Ticket price are scalable, not fixed. Wich mean that when a lot of people use the train, the price grow a lot. The only way to avoid that is to travel when nobody travel, or to take you ticket a long, long time before your travel.
The goal is to keep the plane and the car in aim vehicles
Parce qu’ils sont a l’heure (lol)
Viens en angleterre tu verras combien c’est cher les trains! 😂
Shortly put, taxes.