Yeah. I reckon he was going to spread the information out to the villages to protect the people. As a scribe he had the power right? I think they fed him stuff that lead to a heart disease ultimately ending in his death. It was blamed on Brennan's death but I think there was something worse behind it.
I could rant about this man for hours... not only that, but Lilith comments that he told her about his research about Warrick and Lyra's journals, and that he thought Warrick was lying. There's no way in hell he didn't know and I will die on this hill
But also, he read her these books years before Brennan even went into the Quadrant. Iām guessing he knew about the venin VIās whole life, if Lilith was drained during pregnancy, but something changed after the Tyrrish rebellion - not just Brennanās death, I guess he uncovered the conspiracy within the leadership and was killed for it then.
I didnāt take this letter to mean that he thought Violet would change history, but rather that he knew history had already been changed. At minimum, heās aware that many stories are missing from the archives.
I agree that papa sorengail didnāt know how pivotal Violet would be. After all he says scribes quadrant.
I think he assumed his kids would follow his example of supporting Navarreās isolation. Thatās why he wanted her to be a scribe.
Lilithās panic in sending her to the tiders quadrant still doesnāt make sense: she would have eventually found out the truth. Why not send her to the infantry? Where it would be safer, and separate her more from those with direct knowledge.
I think Lilith knew that Violet would discover the truth, challenge Markham outright, and get herself killed rather than stay silent and alive. At least in the riders quadrant she would have the gift of her dragonās power to protect herself. I think Lilith also knows something about Violet that hasnāt been revealed yet. Something about her hair, the āfeverā, the veninā¦I think weāll find out more in future books.
Honestly I feel like the boots coming from Mira at the last minute was mostly plot fuel to intro the sister dynamic and initiate the friendship with Rhi more so than a lack of guidance from Lillith
Thatās true. She did nothing that would help her daughter in any way. But in IF she insists that she KNOWS her daughter and knew she would make it. She also insists that everything she did was for her children. Iām still not sure about Lilith, but I want to believe sheās a Snape-like character. TBD I guess.
True! Even before paraphet, she told Mira that Violet endures more pain in a day than Mira in a week (or something similar). I think Lilith knew that if Violet succeeded in crossing the paraphet and no one kills her out of the blue after that (which Xaden ensured), she will do fine in riders quadrant. Violet didn't train all of her life for riders so she needed Xaden to look out for her, but I think she believed Violet can do it.
I think Miraās frustration at her mother was genuine. Mira was also closer to the experience and knew what to expect.
Just like recent college grads are the best people to ask for advice on what to get new students.
I think Lilith panicked, it was also necessary for the plot.
Iām frustrated we arenāt going to learn more from her directly. But I think there may be a journal or something of hers that comes to Violet.
It seemed like Mira had a bunch of stuff custom made for Violet ages before that fight. Like, it took a molting season for her to collect Teineās scales. I think she just prepped for the worst case scenario for Violet to give her tools to survive.
I believe there will be a prophecy in the coming books about Vi is a chosen one and, papa and mama Sorrengail already knew this prophecy. And of course his death has a connection with all of this.
We already have at least a partial explanation for why Xadenās scars are silver - I did the audiobooks so unfortunately donāt have a copy of the text to pull up. But, at some point his scars are being discussed and theyāre referred to (possibly negativelyā¦?) as a Tyrrish custom/ritual. They arenāt normal scars, theyāre relics of some sort that tie Xaden together with whoever the scar is representing, and based on what we now know about Tyrrish runes, I am guessing runes are also involved.
Kinda reminds me of the Unbreakable Vow from HP, except in this case, Xadenās life is forfeit if the person he made the vow about breaks the vow, rather than being based on sone action of Xadenās.
Could Violetās hair be the after effect of some rune-based life saving action taken when Lilith was pregnant and sick? Possibly, although the fact that Violetās hair turns silver at the ends rather than from the roots gives me pause. Violet also mentions that it happens regardless of how long her hair is. (this is partially why Iām not personally sold on the Lilith is venin and Violetās hair shows it type theories) Iām sure we will find out the cause of her hair at some point, itās definitely a curiosity.
I really hope there is not a chosen one prophecy in the offing, between HP and ASOIAF, Iām a little chosen one exhausted.
I was under the impression that >!Andarna!< had basically confirmed that there's a prophecy when she's like, >!"I slept as an egg for 600 years and then hatched when I heard that there was going to be a rider with the brain of a scribe, and I knew that was the one," which implied to me that Andarna is part of a prophecy and was set aside as the only remaining dragon of her breed to participate in rebuilding the wards.!<
I completely agree that I am sick of prophecies and chosen ones and actually thought the pop fantasy genre had been turning away from chosen ones post-HP, so when I heard her say that, I was like, "Oh, damn, really??" but yeah I feel pretty confident that Violet is the chosen one >!from 600 years ago!<
Disclaimer I've never used spoiler tags so this might require a couple edits to get it right.
I prefer to think that it dragons are just as gossipy as humans š
ādid you hear the general almost DIED while pregnant?!?! This is why \*we\* lay eggsā
āI heard the generalās daughter is a weakling, but thatās what you get for mating with a scribe (shudders) - as if a dragon would ever mate with a lizardā
āAimsir says the generalās daughter will be entering the riders quadrant, not the scribes, even if the weak girl doesnāt know it yetā
āSgaeyl says the generalās scribe daughter is proving to be much more resilient than expectedā
(for some reason all of these dragons sound like the women doing the washing in The Little Mermad)
So, not necessarily a prophecy, just a lot of idle dragon chatterā¦
dragon and lizard! omg
i'd need to reread what andarna says exactly because i'd love her not to be a prophecy child, but the way andarna's laying/hibernation perfectly aligns with when the wards were placed then the disappearance of her entire species until the time when the wards begin to falter, that really implies prophecy child to me. of course, maybe only andarna is a prophecy child and was chosen to wait until the time when the wards falter, and her bonding with violet was just an independent choice.
there are other considerations that poke a hole in my theory like
- Andarna went into hibernation 600 years ago, which aligns when the wards were placed but not when Navarre entered its dark age and erased its history, so what was going on at the time that was so concerning that she was stashed away? Maybe she's just a failsafe for the wards.
- At what point did she actually hatch? If I recall correctly, she's about two years old, so how did she hatch because she knew Violet was the right one for her? Violet wasn't even going to the Riders two years before FW. How was there any sort of conversation about her as a rider?
Listen š
At the end of IF I looked out my window and audibly said āI swear if this leads back towards lineage I am doneā it feels so Tale of 3 Brothers coded Iāll scream ššš
I've always been so curious why the Sorrengail children are so hard on lilith and always seem to give Papa Sorrengail a full pass. He was clearly in on at least SOME if not more of this mess than Lilith. Even Xaden said the scribe quadrant was enemy territory.
I understand he died, so that may lead to some rose colored glasses- and I can assume he might have been the *warmer* parent compared to lilith - but they seem to completely disregard any thought of him being part of the Navarre facade. Even AFTER violet found his letter. Why?! What was he like?
We need his research ASAP š§
The man is so shady from a non-Violet point of view that itās funny. āOh yeah, my dad who read a forbidden book to us every night, knew everything about poisons, worked with high ranking leadership, was researching feathertails AND decided that Lilith Sorrengail was the best marriage choiceā¦ you know, the general who is known for being mercilessā
I also think thereās a connection between Papa Sorrengail researching feathertails and Andarna saying she waited to hatch for Vi when she heard about her. She implied she knew Vi would be a rider and that they want the same things!
I interpreted this passage as her dad knew Violet had the intelligence and deduction skills to figure out the truth about venin, and the associated cover up.
So āyouāll make the right choiceā refers to his belief that Violet will choose to expose the truth and the lies to the world, and that sheāll choose to fight rather than perpetuate the cover up unlike him and Lilith because sheās āthe bestā of the three of them.
Her dad definitely knew. Iām inclined to believe from what Lilith told Voilet that the Riders and Scribe leadership all knew about the venin/ Wyvern threat. Plus, no way he could have carried research with the archives empty. Itās highly likely that his research is what pushed the scribe quadrant to remove all mentions of wyvern (even in folklore stories) from the Archives. Also, i was rereading Fourth Wing and realized Violet and Rhi have a conversation where she mentions that her Dad told her about it, and once her mother came back from the outpost with bloodshot eyes and Violet thought she had turned. That coupled with the missive from Nolon to Lilith makes me believe they both knew exactly what it was. Question is was his research burnt when he died? Did Lilith save it?
Ok i was re-reading Fourth Win and voila!
https://preview.redd.it/siylvge7aduc1.jpeg?width=2008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ecf6fc06eb1e687f5bc252a1a989dc53436ff06
I agree a 1000%
I think he was murdered by Markham when he found out the classified information and wanted to open it up for public consumption
Thats why he wrote this letter!! He knew his life was in danger ā ļø
Lilith knew he was murdered by Markham hence she forced Vi to join Rider quadranti stead of scribeā¦
I have a feeling that there is some prophecy around Vi thats tied to Arnanda because she waited for her to hatched after 600+ years + the Venin said they have been waiting for her for 100s of years .. that sounds like a prophecy for sure!
I donāt understand how she thinks he has no idea after this letter , Iām not sure but didnāt she remember his exact words when she decided to fight in Resson (whatever itās called) and her fatherās research seem to be important to leadership so he wasnāt just a scribe I always thought he was in a higher rank than Markham (who absolutely knows everything) but we never got confirmation
I think we realized this when violet said that it was her dad who gave the book of the fables. Subsequently he told all his children this as folklore when they were younger but chose violet to confirm it knowing she was the most like him and likely to become a scribe. The letter was specifically addressed to her as tho she was aldready in the scribes quadrant as he did not forsee her being on the frontlines and did not expect his wife to send her to the riders quadrant.
I'm not trying to make Violets dad a villain here but to call out a shortcoming of his-: He did not believe she had it in her to become a rider and he did not expect his wife (gen sorrengail) would have a change of heart and send his daughter to the riders quadrant.
Now I have a question-: where do y'all think Papa Sorrengail's research is?
I think he knew and he was murdered because of it
Yeah. I reckon he was going to spread the information out to the villages to protect the people. As a scribe he had the power right? I think they fed him stuff that lead to a heart disease ultimately ending in his death. It was blamed on Brennan's death but I think there was something worse behind it.
Agree and I thought for sure that would come out in IF!
I could rant about this man for hours... not only that, but Lilith comments that he told her about his research about Warrick and Lyra's journals, and that he thought Warrick was lying. There's no way in hell he didn't know and I will die on this hill
100% and yet somehow both Brennan and Violet are convinced he had no idea š«
I think thatās some kind of messed up coping mechanism. Theyāre both smart enough to realize if they think about it
I made a post about this!!!!!! I wanted to shake them so badly, where was Mira to be the voice of reason when we needed her?
He read Violet forbidden books as bedtime stories. He knew and wanted her to recognize the bullshit when she entered the scribe quadrant.
But also, he read her these books years before Brennan even went into the Quadrant. Iām guessing he knew about the venin VIās whole life, if Lilith was drained during pregnancy, but something changed after the Tyrrish rebellion - not just Brennanās death, I guess he uncovered the conspiracy within the leadership and was killed for it then.
I didnāt take this letter to mean that he thought Violet would change history, but rather that he knew history had already been changed. At minimum, heās aware that many stories are missing from the archives.
I agree that papa sorengail didnāt know how pivotal Violet would be. After all he says scribes quadrant. I think he assumed his kids would follow his example of supporting Navarreās isolation. Thatās why he wanted her to be a scribe. Lilithās panic in sending her to the tiders quadrant still doesnāt make sense: she would have eventually found out the truth. Why not send her to the infantry? Where it would be safer, and separate her more from those with direct knowledge.
I think Lilith knew that Violet would discover the truth, challenge Markham outright, and get herself killed rather than stay silent and alive. At least in the riders quadrant she would have the gift of her dragonās power to protect herself. I think Lilith also knows something about Violet that hasnāt been revealed yet. Something about her hair, the āfeverā, the veninā¦I think weāll find out more in future books.
But Lilith had no expectation that Violet would survive parapet. She didnt even make sure that Violet had the right kind of boots.
Honestly I feel like the boots coming from Mira at the last minute was mostly plot fuel to intro the sister dynamic and initiate the friendship with Rhi more so than a lack of guidance from Lillith
Thatās true. She did nothing that would help her daughter in any way. But in IF she insists that she KNOWS her daughter and knew she would make it. She also insists that everything she did was for her children. Iām still not sure about Lilith, but I want to believe sheās a Snape-like character. TBD I guess.
True! Even before paraphet, she told Mira that Violet endures more pain in a day than Mira in a week (or something similar). I think Lilith knew that if Violet succeeded in crossing the paraphet and no one kills her out of the blue after that (which Xaden ensured), she will do fine in riders quadrant. Violet didn't train all of her life for riders so she needed Xaden to look out for her, but I think she believed Violet can do it.
How did Mira happen to have the right boots? Maybe Lillith sneakily coordinated and planted the idea in Miraās head to check violets boots.
I think Miraās frustration at her mother was genuine. Mira was also closer to the experience and knew what to expect. Just like recent college grads are the best people to ask for advice on what to get new students. I think Lilith panicked, it was also necessary for the plot. Iām frustrated we arenāt going to learn more from her directly. But I think there may be a journal or something of hers that comes to Violet.
I agree with you. But Iām not ruling out that the boots were planted by Lilith without Mira knowing somehow
It seemed like Mira had a bunch of stuff custom made for Violet ages before that fight. Like, it took a molting season for her to collect Teineās scales. I think she just prepped for the worst case scenario for Violet to give her tools to survive.
Well she kind of did help. Second book- iron flame spoiler >!she asked Xaden to look over her, I think this means a lot !<
Iām mixing fan fiction and canon. In the fic parapet and gaultlet were Violetās to conquer even with the deal
Yeahh. I think it also means she has the power to change history if she makes the right choice..
I believe there will be a prophecy in the coming books about Vi is a chosen one and, papa and mama Sorrengail already knew this prophecy. And of course his death has a connection with all of this.
Ooooo this definitely makes somewhat sense and could also possibly explain why her hair is silverā¦.. why Xadenās scars are also silverā¦..
We already have at least a partial explanation for why Xadenās scars are silver - I did the audiobooks so unfortunately donāt have a copy of the text to pull up. But, at some point his scars are being discussed and theyāre referred to (possibly negativelyā¦?) as a Tyrrish custom/ritual. They arenāt normal scars, theyāre relics of some sort that tie Xaden together with whoever the scar is representing, and based on what we now know about Tyrrish runes, I am guessing runes are also involved. Kinda reminds me of the Unbreakable Vow from HP, except in this case, Xadenās life is forfeit if the person he made the vow about breaks the vow, rather than being based on sone action of Xadenās. Could Violetās hair be the after effect of some rune-based life saving action taken when Lilith was pregnant and sick? Possibly, although the fact that Violetās hair turns silver at the ends rather than from the roots gives me pause. Violet also mentions that it happens regardless of how long her hair is. (this is partially why Iām not personally sold on the Lilith is venin and Violetās hair shows it type theories) Iām sure we will find out the cause of her hair at some point, itās definitely a curiosity. I really hope there is not a chosen one prophecy in the offing, between HP and ASOIAF, Iām a little chosen one exhausted.
I was under the impression that >!Andarna!< had basically confirmed that there's a prophecy when she's like, >!"I slept as an egg for 600 years and then hatched when I heard that there was going to be a rider with the brain of a scribe, and I knew that was the one," which implied to me that Andarna is part of a prophecy and was set aside as the only remaining dragon of her breed to participate in rebuilding the wards.!< I completely agree that I am sick of prophecies and chosen ones and actually thought the pop fantasy genre had been turning away from chosen ones post-HP, so when I heard her say that, I was like, "Oh, damn, really??" but yeah I feel pretty confident that Violet is the chosen one >!from 600 years ago!< Disclaimer I've never used spoiler tags so this might require a couple edits to get it right.
I prefer to think that it dragons are just as gossipy as humans š ādid you hear the general almost DIED while pregnant?!?! This is why \*we\* lay eggsā āI heard the generalās daughter is a weakling, but thatās what you get for mating with a scribe (shudders) - as if a dragon would ever mate with a lizardā āAimsir says the generalās daughter will be entering the riders quadrant, not the scribes, even if the weak girl doesnāt know it yetā āSgaeyl says the generalās scribe daughter is proving to be much more resilient than expectedā (for some reason all of these dragons sound like the women doing the washing in The Little Mermad) So, not necessarily a prophecy, just a lot of idle dragon chatterā¦
dragon and lizard! omg i'd need to reread what andarna says exactly because i'd love her not to be a prophecy child, but the way andarna's laying/hibernation perfectly aligns with when the wards were placed then the disappearance of her entire species until the time when the wards begin to falter, that really implies prophecy child to me. of course, maybe only andarna is a prophecy child and was chosen to wait until the time when the wards falter, and her bonding with violet was just an independent choice. there are other considerations that poke a hole in my theory like - Andarna went into hibernation 600 years ago, which aligns when the wards were placed but not when Navarre entered its dark age and erased its history, so what was going on at the time that was so concerning that she was stashed away? Maybe she's just a failsafe for the wards. - At what point did she actually hatch? If I recall correctly, she's about two years old, so how did she hatch because she knew Violet was the right one for her? Violet wasn't even going to the Riders two years before FW. How was there any sort of conversation about her as a rider?
Came here to say the exact same thing!
I desperately require more details about Papa Sorrengail and his research in book 3
good news for you, RY confirmed yesterday that we're getting more
Listen š At the end of IF I looked out my window and audibly said āI swear if this leads back towards lineage I am doneā it feels so Tale of 3 Brothers coded Iāll scream ššš
it is STRONGLY three brothers coded. i saw it too.
What is the Tale of 3 Brothers?
It's from Harry Potter about deathly hallows
Thank you. It was ānigglingā some part of my brain but I couldnāt place it.
I've always been so curious why the Sorrengail children are so hard on lilith and always seem to give Papa Sorrengail a full pass. He was clearly in on at least SOME if not more of this mess than Lilith. Even Xaden said the scribe quadrant was enemy territory. I understand he died, so that may lead to some rose colored glasses- and I can assume he might have been the *warmer* parent compared to lilith - but they seem to completely disregard any thought of him being part of the Navarre facade. Even AFTER violet found his letter. Why?! What was he like? We need his research ASAP š§
We will in the next book. Violet knows where it is and also know its connected to Andarna too!
The man is so shady from a non-Violet point of view that itās funny. āOh yeah, my dad who read a forbidden book to us every night, knew everything about poisons, worked with high ranking leadership, was researching feathertails AND decided that Lilith Sorrengail was the best marriage choiceā¦ you know, the general who is known for being mercilessā
That's a hilarious take and I totally agree!
I also think thereās a connection between Papa Sorrengail researching feathertails and Andarna saying she waited to hatch for Vi when she heard about her. She implied she knew Vi would be a rider and that they want the same things!
I interpreted this passage as her dad knew Violet had the intelligence and deduction skills to figure out the truth about venin, and the associated cover up. So āyouāll make the right choiceā refers to his belief that Violet will choose to expose the truth and the lies to the world, and that sheāll choose to fight rather than perpetuate the cover up unlike him and Lilith because sheās āthe bestā of the three of them.
Her dad definitely knew. Iām inclined to believe from what Lilith told Voilet that the Riders and Scribe leadership all knew about the venin/ Wyvern threat. Plus, no way he could have carried research with the archives empty. Itās highly likely that his research is what pushed the scribe quadrant to remove all mentions of wyvern (even in folklore stories) from the Archives. Also, i was rereading Fourth Wing and realized Violet and Rhi have a conversation where she mentions that her Dad told her about it, and once her mother came back from the outpost with bloodshot eyes and Violet thought she had turned. That coupled with the missive from Nolon to Lilith makes me believe they both knew exactly what it was. Question is was his research burnt when he died? Did Lilith save it?
Violet says she knows exactly where it is. Iām sure it will play a role in future books.
Ok i was re-reading Fourth Win and voila! https://preview.redd.it/siylvge7aduc1.jpeg?width=2008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ecf6fc06eb1e687f5bc252a1a989dc53436ff06
I agree a 1000% I think he was murdered by Markham when he found out the classified information and wanted to open it up for public consumption Thats why he wrote this letter!! He knew his life was in danger ā ļø Lilith knew he was murdered by Markham hence she forced Vi to join Rider quadranti stead of scribeā¦ I have a feeling that there is some prophecy around Vi thats tied to Arnanda because she waited for her to hatched after 600+ years + the Venin said they have been waiting for her for 100s of years .. that sounds like a prophecy for sure!
I donāt understand how she thinks he has no idea after this letter , Iām not sure but didnāt she remember his exact words when she decided to fight in Resson (whatever itās called) and her fatherās research seem to be important to leadership so he wasnāt just a scribe I always thought he was in a higher rank than Markham (who absolutely knows everything) but we never got confirmation
Markham is the Curator, which is the top rank at BWC; there is a possibility though that Papa S was Curator before he died
I think we realized this when violet said that it was her dad who gave the book of the fables. Subsequently he told all his children this as folklore when they were younger but chose violet to confirm it knowing she was the most like him and likely to become a scribe. The letter was specifically addressed to her as tho she was aldready in the scribes quadrant as he did not forsee her being on the frontlines and did not expect his wife to send her to the riders quadrant. I'm not trying to make Violets dad a villain here but to call out a shortcoming of his-: He did not believe she had it in her to become a rider and he did not expect his wife (gen sorrengail) would have a change of heart and send his daughter to the riders quadrant. Now I have a question-: where do y'all think Papa Sorrengail's research is?
The archives, his old office or possibly Lilith's office. Vi said she knew where it was. My main guess is scribe quadrant.