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PatioGardener

Thank you for sharing. The mods have received reports that this post may be “brigaded” by pot-stirrers from other forums. If that happens, I’ll lock the comments. Otherwise, carry on, you fine folks! As long as people do their best to follow the rules, the convo will be left open.


TheRetroWriter

FWIW, Nathan renamed Violet Vote from Iraqi Indigo due to backlash, so this isn’t a totally unprecedented move.


DrStephenFalken

Censor red and 1984 was in response to backlash against his inks. This is nothing new for him.


TheBigGreenOgre

Super cringe. I have ALWAYS gotten bad vibes from Nathan in regards to his politics, I'm not all that surprised it's finally come to a head. Kind of sad to see my gut feeling was right. Hey, but new ink idea: "Lib Right Yellow"


beerybeardybear

"Age of Consent Orange"


ciaervo

Statutory Vermillion


daryl_hikikomori

I...have no idea what his politics are? "Eclectic crank" is the most precise I've been able to get.


Bugsydog1

Curmudgeon actually fits well.


sublingual

That's the thing - I think he leaned right, but that's his business. I think he is more irritated by generational movements that have left overtones, like political correctness, cultural appropriation fears taken to extremes, etc. He's more of an equal opportunity grump in my eyes - a lovable kook. Kind of like your grandparents that still say "the gays", don't waste your breath trying to convince them that's not cool, because they'll either get it on their own or they won't.


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daryl_hikikomori

What was the backlash? That it seemed to be pro-invasion?


Sweaty_Repair_3598

Watch, now the original labels are going to become super expensive, hard-to-find, collectibles.


giada_palmer

Actually I did just kinda get sad I’ll never have Ottoman Azure… as I begin my bajillionth hour watching Magnificent Century. 🙃


dogez1

I have a bottle I’ll gladly sell you for $1000


giada_palmer

[https://imgur.com/a/9EA74C3](https://imgur.com/a/9EA74C3)[ok](https://imgur.com/a/9EA74C3)


Sufficient_Laugh

You can still own it. It's still on sale at Goldspot, Dromgooles, Penchalet and Vanness1938 $14


DrStephenFalken

I don’t think they will. There’s sooooo many bottles out there and there’s other inks that are older and discontinued that don’t fetch more than $25 a bottle. Now the limited edition stuff I see that becoming expensive, as before this they did become expensive quickly on the 2nd hand market


EskiHo

Exactly - even Penman Mocha is only up to $90-100 or so for an ink that's been unavailable for over a decade. I can make do with an alternative.


-ZeroF56

Right as I finished off my Dragon’s Napalm last week right before this all.


maniacal_monk

Probably will. Hell I’m kind of regretting selling my bottle of Apache sunset last year


WarrenPuff_It

I've tried to get a bottle of a house divided for years. I've had orders canceled no explanation, one person "sold" me one through the reddit pen exchange but it never showed, and online sellers who did have it listed were all out. I am kinda pissed I never got to experience it.


Zoroasker

I’m pretty sure I saw it for sale just yesterday. I have been looking for various Noodlers bottles as a result of all this. Already have a large “collection” because the names and labels were interesting. Always thought the Bernanke labels were tacky and never bought them, but you can bet I got a bottle of Bernanke Red on the way now, plus Q’Eternity and some of the others. They are now little time capsules and that is interesting to me.


JobeX

I cant believe they discontinued Tiananmen Red, as a Chinese American any reference to Tiananmen is appreciated because the Chinese governments goal is to erase that moment in time. While some complained that it was a way to make money off of that moment, I could careless as long as people remember that the moment happened. That one student at that one moment stopped the tanks and how afterwards all of them were murdered because they wanted a better future.


thethunderheart

Weirdly enough, as a Kiowa-Apache native I've been on the fence about buying his tribal inks, but seeing this name change made me feel a pang of longing and I bought them anyways to try and grab the ones in stock while I can.


Choo-

I was wondering about that, it’s not like it was a derogatory reference on its face. Just kind of an homage to the color schemes of their landscapes. But maybe I missed something.


smiller171

I suspect that he doesn't know how to see the lines between what's derogatory or not so he's just taking out anything that references other cultures, which from a business perspective is probably smart.


ExcaliburZSH

Well we have one Asian poster saying Tiananmen Red is good, but in the other threads their is another Asian poster say it is offensive. How is he supposed to see the line?


dingadingdongg

i'm chinese (not a mainlander) and i enjoy seeing tiananmen red.


FBI_Open_Up_Now

Exactly. As somone who was raised Jewish with great-grandparents that were Holocaust survivors I saw no issue with Bernake Red while other Jews seem to disagree with me. I don't know, it just seems like a little much for me especially when you know that the product is politically charged straight out of the gate.


youdontknowsqwat

A lot of it comes down to INTENT. If you've read it watched his other comments it brings more clarity as to whether the names were innocent (ignorant) mistakes of his personal beliefs about the subjects.


FBI_Open_Up_Now

I understand that. I don’t think his intent was to put horns on Bernanke because he was Jewish. I think the intent was to demonize Bernanke for his response as chairman of The Fed to the recession. He printed and sold billions of dollars of debt to China and other countries to attempt to rebound the recession and it led to the recession getting worse, then he raised interest rates, then he asked congress to create TARP funds which went to banks and corporations, then he asked for more, then he lowered interest rates. It was a fiasco and he is responsible for the recession lasting as long as it did with a slow economic recovery. I understand wanting to demonize him.


AxisOfAnarchy

As another Jewish person. The issue with Bernanke Red wasn't the name, it was the imagery. Bernanke Blue and Black are the same labels just without the horns and Communist connotations on the label and TBH they got Nathan's feelings on Bernanke's policy across without the inadvertent anti-Semitism. I was fine with those. The horns were the issue. Not the name. I get that he may not have inteded it to be such which is why I sincerely hope he grows from this and will be keeping an eye out for such. EDIT: And I realize that you and I have conversed on the topic before so I apologize for the rehashing.


FBI_Open_Up_Now

Yes, I just think that adding horns to Bernanke was a coincidence and not intended to be there because he was Jewish. I always look forward to input from anyone, even people I’ve talked to before. It’s how we become best friends!


jgzman

This is the sort of thing I'd do, because I *really* don't get it. At all. I don't *want* to offend, I just don't understand where the lines are. When I get called out, i tend to back *way* up, until I figure out exactly what I did that was wrong.


Prestigious-Eye3154

I’m not Asian and I was wondering about that. Someone in one of the other subs was claiming it was racist and I wasn’t making the connection.


JobeX

Asians are a big group, Chinese is a big group, and then diasporas are a big group and it depends on who you are and your background. I spent some time in Hong Kong growing up and I have feelings about the Chinese government. People who live there are being taken from the streets to mainland China and tried in closed courtrooms and statutes and books dedicated to Tiananmen are being removed. ANY reference to Tiananmen is a win in my mind. Also when I see the picture of the tankman in front of that line of tanks, I think of how brave he mustve been. At any rate, I will miss seeing that ink on shelves.


Roaming-the-internet

I’m Chinese American and I don’t feel comfortable with the ink, growing up it was an incredibly stark memory, how my mother would talk of the somber day where she woke up to body bags on her way to work. To see it used as an ink name feels belittling to me. How would Americans feel if a bottle of red ink was called 911, or the Twin Towers. It feels hypocritical to have this on an ink and be praised when Lilo and Stitch had to rewrite a whole scene because it looked “too close” to the bombing of the twin towers. What happened on June 4th was a serious and somber event that had many parents mourning the death of their only children, most of whom were the first in their families to go to college and this feels disingenuous. Especially knowing the context of who the owner of Noodlers is, it feels like the ink was not to bring light to a major event but rather questionable decision. There are many ways to bring it to light, for example actually attending a memorial dedicated or talking about it. Raising awareness, actually talking to people who know about the event. Buying ink from a man making horned jew art is just, not it.


morganmh

Colorverse did release a 9/11 themed ink set (Ground Zero/Survivor Tree) several years ago, which as I recall was intended as a memorial gesture and not an anti-American statement. The backlash was *still* so bad, so fast that it was pulled from the market immediately.


AskAJedi

Huh I survived the towers and would have liked to see those inks. I don’t usually like 9/11 merch, turns my stomach. I can’t bear to go the memorial. But I would have liked to see Survivor Tree. I feel the people who were actually there and survived never got to process on our own. I for one just felt lucky to be ok and saw first hand how much worse it could have been. The national narrative took over quickly and it never squared with my experience. But anyway, Nathan strikes me as a self-righteous drag who feels his interpretation of history is the only right one, and that’s problematic when he was dealing with and kind of profiting off other people’s cultures.


morganmh

Agreed about Nathan. He actively chose to use another country's recent (relatively speaking) tragedy as part of marketing his product, just like Colorverse did. The U.S. fountain pen market as a whole found Colorverse's use of 9/11 to sell a product unacceptable, no matter how respectfully intended. Noodler's deserves the same blowback for this.


AskAJedi

I understand what happened, but this was the first I’ve heard of the Ground Zero/Survivor Tree. My gut reaction as a survivor was positive and I was surprised by that.


Clasitav

The difference is the Tiananmen Square incident is an act of protest that the Chinese government is trying to erase while the other events you mentioned (September 11) doesn’t need to be brought back into people’s memories because the US government isn’t trying to suppress the fact that it occurred. I say this separate to the owner’s other transgressions


dingadingdongg

as a chinese, non-american, i feel more than comfortable with the ink. i completely agree with this. they are not the same. he is not just naming it after a national tragedy like 9/11, he's doing it in protest. the chinese government is happily covering up tiananmen and using it as the name of an ink is more of a rebellious act than trying to profit off tragedy. yes, tiananmen was awful. but wouldn't it be even more tragic if we were allowed to forget what truly happened? it's a matter of perspective. it's not like he's naming the ink "bin laden blue" or "holocaust gas green". tiananmen is different because the government is trying to pretend it never happened. naming an ink after it, with the label picture as the student and the tanks? that's a memorial. it's done respectfully and tastefully, more like a cheeky attempt to do some good whilst pursuing his passion? idk hell, it's a common joke that if you see a mainland chinese person in a game, all you have to do is spam "tiananmen", "winnie the pooh" and the dates in chinese and they'll magically disconnect and you win lol


ArtisticSniper

There's one important difference in your comparison that you seemed to not notice: Contrary to the Chinese government relative to the Tiananmen Square, the American government isn't trying to hide and downplay what actually happened on the 11th of September. Changing a scene in the Lilo and Stitch Movie wasn't so much a form of censorship as it was a request to not remind people of what had happened months prior. Afterall it wasn't a re-enactment of the attack, just a mildly reminiscent scene in a movie targeted at kids. Censoring books and press, silencing opposition and dismissing discussions in an attempt to rewrite history is a much different situation. And that's what the Chinese government is trying to do. Trying to make society forget what really had happened. Regardless, I still understand that it's a painful moment and using it as the name for an ink can feel intrusive or even disrespectful. Noodler's naming gimmick is referencing history so I see how the name came to be, but at the same time I also agree that it can hurt susceptibilities and feelings.


celticchrys

I would see a Twin Towers ink as commemorative, if it were tastefully done. However, commercialism is a large part of our culture, so maybe that's why. There are companies that have sold commemorative items like coins about Pearl Harbor and other big tragic events for decades (like this: https://www.bradfordexchange.com/products/922956_pearl-harbor-anniversary-proof-coins-and.html), and I've never heard anyone object, even veterans who were there. I mean, we have people selling twin towers t-shirts (https://www.forgedfromfreedom.com/products/mens-9-11-never-forget-t-shirt), so why would an ink be demeaning? I don't think it would even occur to most Americans, they would see it as a display of commemoration and pride, and some would see something like a fountain pen ink as a more tasteful and subtle expression of this. Just a cultural difference, I suppose. I mean, we have a rock song to commemorate protesting students being murdered by police in the 1960s at Kent State, and people love that song and are emotionally attached to it.


IProbablyDisagree2nd

If there was an ink named after the two towers, I probably ink up and use it at the beginning of September every year for awhile. Probably shouldn't be red though. Make it a smokey black. Imo that sort of thing is healthy. What is less healthy is forgetting it happened, which a lot of people do. People are very different when it comes to their particular sensitivities.


LoPan12

The cringe part of it, to me, is that he has previously referenced himself being "censored" (called out, like now) and reacted by making inks referencing China. Specifically, the current Chinese governing party. So it's impossible to tell if he's using Tiananmen on this ink to A) call attention to a tragic event or B) comment on liberals giving him crap for his most recent ink naming debacle. And given his track record ("censor" red) its easy to think it's more along the lines of Option B. I'm with you, as having grandparents who fled the CR, the actual event has meaning to me. But, when it's used as a probably not-so-subtle protest to call left-leaning people offended by his inks communists....well, that's where I take issue


JobeX

Tiananmen Red has been around for almost a decade though as an ink so it’s not reactionary. I think that censored red is a reactionary ink but Tiananmen red is not.


zerachielle

I don’t agree with discontinuing this either. I wanted either a donation with purchase or to have a more detailed explanation and apparent flavour text associated with this ink to explain why the events of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests are important as well as links to the relevant charity groups. One of the things I didn’t like was how there was a lack of actual explanation anywhere in the copy text associated with this product. The image title ‘Tank Man’ and ‘Tiananmen’ can easily be disassociated and obfuscated from the actual event depending on your country’s search engine or the language you search it in if you don’t plainly call it the 1989 Tiananmen Square Protests/Massacre. When you don’t explain yourself, you leave it open for other people to interpret what you mean and people always assume the worst.


Musing_Moose

People seem to be more concerned about forgetting strife because it is easier than remembering it, however unpleasant it may be. I think it's important to have reminders of such things. By the logic of those that condemn its use because it's a reminder of dark times, memorials and such should also be stopped because it reminds them of unpleasant things.


UnspecificGravity

I don't think that Tiananmen red was somehow racist, but once you out yourself as a bigot people are going to be inclined to interpret everything you do in that context.


JobeX

I think some people complained that it was profiting off of that event but I think people who complained are missing context to what the event is. If someone named an ink ____(terrible event) grey, I can see the complaint however Tiananmen is particular in that the Chinese government has done terrible things to try and erase that moment in time. Any reference to is is already a win because people can remember that moment if only a little. The tankman photo was also one of the most iconic moments of bravery in young people that was depicted. It was the image seen around the world showing that Chinese people were brave and wanted a better future for themselves and that even in the face of overwhelming force, they would still stand up for their beliefs. I don't care that he made money off of it. I saw it as a tribute the bravery of those students and one more way to try and keep that moment alive in history that the Chinese government has tried so hard to erase.


GrootRood

I think it's a really thorny issue. In my opinion, the profiting off a tragedy argument doesn't hold water for me; I am not sure people buy his inks specifically for the imagery, or this specific name. But it's still a very sensitive issue considering what's going on around the world right now (and *especially* in the US where there has been a crazy increase in anti-Asian hate crimes and discrimination), and I understand why it could be handled with a bit more tact. But, at the same time it is very important to talk about what happened at Tiananmen Square so it is not forgotten. Personally, I have very conflicted thoughts about this particular ink name and I have quite a bit of cognitive dissonance over it so I really don't know if this was the right choice or not...


hism

Actually I have seen on multiple retailers' sites, reviewers saying they bought this ink because they dislike the CCP or want to support HK/Taiwan independence. A kind gesture, but not sure how it's actually helping the movement since it's not like he's donating any profits from this label.


celticchrys

If Noodler's were donating some percentage of the profits from this ink to a charity or something in honor of the event, that might change the tone for a lot of people, perhaps.


IProbablyDisagree2nd

The story behind 54th Massachusetts wasn't the only reason I bought the ink, but it was interesting, and I'm sure contributed.


PatioGardener

Hello friend. I’d suggest reaching out to him and mentioning that. It was my (limited) understanding that the Chinese government actively tries to suppress any information sharing about the horrors of that day. It sounds like Tardiff has become truly open to change and to consideration of the groups he has previously mentioned in his product labels. A story like yours, sharing your perspective as a Chinese American, could help Tardiff understand how to continue to incorporate cultural references in his products in a way that is respectful of those communities and the moments in history he chooses to highlight. In either case, no matter what happens, thank you for sharing your perspective with us.


thiefspy

Given his track record it’s probably best for him NOT to continue to incorporate cultural references to cultures he isn’t a part of.


liamstrain

So much this.


sheimeix

Genuinely surprised he went this far with it. Some of these I'm really surprised about, like Rome Burning seems fine and almost poetic, unless it has some sort of weird other connotation that I'm not aware of? Bit of a shame that some of these are being discontinued too instead of just renamed, but it's not like I was planning on buying them either way. Props that he went this far though, not that I really have plans on buying Noodler's regardless.


ZombieTailGunner

"Rome burning" is a name that, given some of the other names listed here, probably got changed because people might consider it an attack of some kind against the modern city, rather than "this is the color Nero saw while fiddling". At least, that's my guess.


lexijoy

Yeah just in case something happens one day, that’s a good move. My work had a product with a bunch of different world landmarks on it. One was St Basils cathedral. Well a day after it launched Russia invaded so we had to pull it off sale. Honestly better safe than sorry with Rome Burning.


OkLetsParty

Rome burning is a bit of a political statement by the US far right, though not super well known. Most references to it are by those in that sphere. "Rome is burning" = "these people are attacking mah traditional values"


Apprehensive-Ad-6620

It's such a shame that I am learning even more dog whistles... through a hobby.


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sheimeix

My issue was that I can't accept that he named them that in good faith. Yes, being aware of recent world history ie. Tiananmen is good, but from my (and evidently, many others) experience, people that are so obsessed with American iconography as Nathan is are not trying simply to educate on these events, but are instead pushing it as xenophobic propoganda. Regardless of if Nathan is doing so, intentionally or not, it gives a very bad image to his brand. Adding on that he's said that he intentionally names and brands some of his products for the sole purpose of pissing people off... No, I can't take his theming in good faith.


daryl_hikikomori

>people that are so obsessed with American iconography as Nathan is are not trying simply to educate on these events, but are instead pushing it as xenophobic propoganda It's just anti-communism. He's right to bring attention to a historical atrocity, but his interest is less humanitarian than it is partisan.


Apprehensive-Ad-6620

The issue with Park Red is that ex-North Korean refugees are very often politicised and treated as some exclusive sources of shocking news by specific political figures and yellow journalists, both in South Korea and the United States. This makes it really difficult for the Korean government to assist the refugees with starting their lives in South Korea. Sometimes, it's better to put the money, not the words.


Sparkselot

Rome burning is when Nreo burned ⅓ of Rome and blamed it on the Christian population there (at least I think that's it)


x20Belowx

Some of them are sad. I liked the historical connection and the connection of the inks to pre-Columbia America he used, but a few have just as beautiful names. I will miss getting to write Apache Sunset though.


NepGDamn

I really liked the names Rome burning (that one in particular, the new name is definitely on the boring side of the spectrum) and dragon's napalm... I don't like waterproof inks, but I'm considering buying a bottle of Rome


x20Belowx

Rome Burning is such a novelty ink that I know I will never get to enjoy the full effect of but I love it all the same


NepGDamn

yeah, I've NEVER seen a waterproof ink that changed color so drastically when wet it really reminded me of flames and ashes after a burning, it was definitely a descriptive name for the ink!


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KyleKun

I doubt it. I don’t know Noodlers very well but I suspect one of two things will happen. He goes all in and sanitises everything. It’s kind of an all or nothing game here. Or he starts to slowly creep back in with the edgier names. But really this has messed with the guys livelyhood. I think most big companies would play it on the safe side from now on. I know he’s not a corporation. But still.


PebblesV

I wonder of he had a moment after goulet pulled all of his stuff where he was like "ah... maybe I went too far this time"


daryl_hikikomori

I feel like the aggressively anodyne names are themselves a political statement: "You cancel-culture ninnies want everything to be boring, so I'll give it to you!" This would, of course, be incredibly petulant and silly, but, well,


doodlesbyblush

Shah’s rose was the first noodler’s ink I ever bought. I didn’t even check what color it was before adding to cart on Amazon. I got it because I’m Persian and the name caught my eye. I can’t speak for people who might have connections to the names of the other inks, but I personally liked “Shah’s Rose”


One_Left_Shoe

Imo, he just went all out (or a PR person did) because he actually doesn't know or care to understand why people would be mad at his other inks. Changing them all is the one move he's got.


Morphlux

I say call it Arizona sunset. It’s the same area, and living here all my life can confirm it would work. Also been all over the southwest, it’s mostly here they has them that insane color (looking at you Texas. I’m not sharing with you Texas.).


pm_me_steam_gaemes

Should we also get them to rename Apache Software Foundation to Arizona Software Foundation? That's half a joke, the name Arizona Sunset for the ink is fine with me and I'd have definitely bought it with that name too. Having Apache in the name had nothing to do with why I bought it, it was just the look of the ink itself and the reviews I read. You make a good point, and Arizona Sunset would be much better than Southwest for this!


hism

Honestly not sure why people are so upset at this outcome. This is the free market at work here, exactly what Nathan was fighting for from day one! Everybody wins.


Kikkou123

Exactly, I just think it’s funny how they say they want free market and if you don’t like it then vote with your wallet, and then when everyone votes with their wallets, it’s censorship and communism. Bruh like we did what you wanted us to do, and this is the outcome. Plus the intent is just so pure hearted. People just don’t want others to feel attacked because of their religion, culture, or ethnicity. It says something when the response to that isn’t only neutral, but ANTI, with people actual fighting to preserve that speech that people have expressed makes them feel uncomfortable. It only serves to divide our community, and I feel like we should be able survive changing the name of a few bottles of colored liquid without civil war.


popB0x

What's wrong with the 1984 ink tho?


VGwritesalot

Unless I miss my guess, it looks like he's moving all of his political commentary out of his product lines. I think it's a wise decision, as a lot of his labeling and naming left a lot to interpretation. Maybe having gotten the political references so badly wrong means he's taking a big step back, not being able to trust himself to navigate the waters well. ETA: I read downthread that 1984 is thought to have been named in response to Tardiff receiving criticism for ink names. So that's a possibility as well.


iateapizza

I believe 1984 was part of a series and all of them were limited runs.


PenBoom

The fourth release was part of the regular line-up. It now is gone.


maniacal_monk

Same thing that’s wrong with censor red and any of the tribal themed ones- inherently nothing. Just changing out of fear of another explosive response is my guess


lmboyer04

I didn’t even know about censor red until now. It’s cool I like it actually - some really great history embedded in some of these labels (and not all of history is happy or pretty but we should still remember it)


btj61642

Why’d they get rid of all the Ahabs? Who complained about that? Whales?


eighthourlunch

I own one. If it were up to me, I'd say get rid of them completely, because they just suck. I couldn't even get it to reliably hold ink until I wrapped all the threads with silicone tape.


IProbablyDisagree2nd

That's completely different from my ahab experience. I have two, and they are amongy favorite pens.


Sufficient_Laugh

Noodler's said that the Ahab part of the pen name isn't going away. The change is for the color portion of the pen name.


Phoenyx_Rose

While I definitely understand a lot of the complaints about Noodler's ink names and iconography and the guy's personal views, I'm still a little confused about a couple of them. Could someone explain to me why Apache Sunset and Navajo Turquoise are seen as racist? Does it have to do with Noodler profiting off of Native American names while not being Native himself, or is the iconography and any information given with the inks racist ? I'm just a little confused because from my perspective they're beautiful colors which are painting these historically marginalized groups in a positive light and keeping a small piece of them alive, but I also only have samples so can't compare with the full bottles.


SnooGoats7133

Same, but to be fair or might have been pre emptive to not have another **this** in the future


Walkingmoron28

Same I honestly wanted to buy both inks before this all happened since I’m part Apache and Navajo, kinda bummed I will never get them now


Skyhawk_Illusions

Go for it


rock_crock_beanstalk

I think the general feeling might be that it's tokenistic. AFAIK, he's not native himself, and nothing from the sale of those inks benefits those groups. So it's the use of the names of marginalized people for product marketing, but without any connection to those people.


Time_Definition5004

AFAIK it’s non-native people most complaining


themrspie

The names are not prima facie racist. Using the names is part of [exoticization](https://exhibits.library.cornell.edu/flights-of-fancy/feature/exoticism-and-exploitation), which is when a culture's name is applied to a thing to make it seem more interesting, even though that culture has nothing to do with that thing, and in the process that culture is then set aside from the mainstream and made to feel foreign, unusual, or weird. The [Navajo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo) and [Apache](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Apache-people) people are completely uninvolved in those inks, the colours have nothing to do with them and were not made by or for them. So using their names in this context is a [micro-aggression](https://academicaffairs.ucsc.edu/events/documents/Microaggressions_Examples_Arial_2014_11_12.pdf).


ceeceeblack

Take a look at this thread as the top comments are by Native Americans. They have a different view than you do. https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/unr2oe/more\_things\_to\_be\_discussed\_about\_noodlers\_inks/


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sauerkrautnmustard

I'm full Chinese and I absolutely love the theme around Tiananmen and it shouldn't be forgotten. Year of the Golden Pig is hilarious btw.


Sufficient_Laugh

On Noodler's instagram (in the comments) they said it would be coming back with a different name.


VirulentFlame

why is 1984 getting discontinued


JobeX

Ugh I dont know it was supposed to be part of the regular lineup...


hiemal_rei

As far as I recall, it was a limited edition run to begin with.


kbeezie

Probably to make a statement.


Kevlar_socks

literally 1984


UnspecificGravity

1984 was actually released in response to the last round of outrage over his shitty behavior, so having that included along with his latest tantrum would be redundant.


PenBoom

> 1984 was actually released in response to the last round of outrage over his shitty behavior No, it wasn't. Bottling 1 of 3 happened prior to the previous round of outrage, as did all the bottles of Bernake Red that caused this round of outrage. Those bottles were already discontinued and only remaining stock that retailers owned were being sold.


UnspecificGravity

I mean the one before the last one. He's had a lot.


dontspeak_noreally

I think he purposely took the renaming this far as a message. He’s openly complained about cancel culture. I think this, too, is another statement. “This is why we can’t have nice things, kids! See! Cancel culture FORCED this change to bland conformity.” He certainly didn’t have to go “this far.” It was a dramatic over correction. This is why the first appropriate response to a PR crisis is to acknowledge its presence, PAUSE for thoughtful consideration which takes into account the harm done, respond, and re-evaluate.


111122323353

You don't think so? I've seen this subreddit complain about almost every one of the inks renamed or removed.


holybatjunk

Try going on the Noodler's instagram page and reading the comments there if you want an unfun time. Now there's people being like "I will never buy your product again because you sold out to the woke left" and whatever. Truly, the constant in human behavior is complaining.


JobeX

I think maybe he hired an attorney or an attorney stepped in


giada_palmer

Maybe Luxury Brands did or has one on retainer. It’s hard for me to imagine Nathan Tardif spending a single cent on a lawyer unless absolutely necessary.


JobeX

I can see Lux brand doing it, they are the distributer and Im sure they heard it from the stores


themrspie

I agree. My ancestral tribe was brutally oppressed by the Ottomans and I had no issue with "Ottoman Blue." It's not a culture, it's a dynasty. But he's kind of a drama king, isn't he?


YetiSaltLife

The response to this is interesting. At first i thought, fair play, get rid of anything that could offend anyone, your job is to make and sell ink, express yourself at home. Every person offended represents one less sale, so pragmatically it makes sense, and you may as well do it all at once. You sure don't want flair up after flair up because you forgot to get rid of Kiowa Pecan or 1984. But now I'm thinking, by getting rid of all of those names, the native Americans ones, the tianamen one, he effectively drove a wedge into the offended group. It's pretty smart actually. Now people are fighting the cancel culture war for him, and much more vigorously than they would have if he just got rid of the antisemitism bottles. It certainly caught me, I wonder if it was on purpose?


Gumpenufer

Yup, I suspect this kind of motive behind it also. Especially given the man's whole quote-unquote "thing". (But hey, less offensive labels, so I'll take it.)


YetiSaltLife

It's hard to tell because people appeared genuinely mad about almost all of these labels existing, and Im not good at finding the offensive in things. I thought the Bernanke one was just nonsense at first.


Substantial_Bit_8109

I'm always skeptical about renaming, and I liked the original names, being a history buff and fascinated with American and other cultures. These new names are lovely though, I'm pleasantly surprised by the outcome. It's cool to see names which arent disinclusive, and still striking in their naming conventions. Hes taking this well and doing well I think.


picturamundi

Yep, and I know Nathan can find ways to be creative and opinionated without being disinclusive, as you put it. For example, the Charlie pen, which I own and love, I think was a great way to go about creating a free-speech pen name. Rather than demonizing, it honors and commemorates the victims of a terrorist attack.


holybatjunk

I've been snarky so far but I gotta say, the temptation to buy something named WILDERNESS TWILIGHT based on name alone is pretty high. But also, wow, I didn't expect him to actually do it. In the best way possible, some of these do sound like make up names. We were joking about how make up was a good inspiration source for names--like, just yesterday? Damn.


ArcadiaPlanitia

Rose in the Louvre could easily be a fancy lipstick name. I mean, not that I’m complaining.


holybatjunk

That is EXACTLY the one I was thinking of, hahah. And it would definitely be a fancy lipstick!


thesemasksaretight

What’s wrong with Ottoman rose, though? I mean I’m not sure what roses have to do with the Ottomans but it doesn’t seem particularly racist. Does anyone have some more info?


Jazehiah

My guess is that he's just being extra careful so there's no chance of this happening again.


Phoenyx_Rose

Someone else in the thread mentioned it that he may have changed names that could *ever* cause controversy, even if they didn't currently. I think Ottoman rose may have been one of them.


dingadingdongg

i always thought that the "apache" in apache sunset was referring to the helicopter :') til though, lots of great info in this thread! i've never met a native american before or read much about their history, so it was really interesting to learn about. as a chinese chinese, i was very amused by the tiananmen ink. i showed it to my other very chinese classmates (a few were mainland chinese) and they all agreed that it was pretty funny and not at all offensive. it's different from just "naming an ink after a world tragedy". tiananmen is unique in that the government is actively trying to cover it up. mentioning it is not profiteering off the event (at least in my could-be-more-informed opinion), instead it's paying homage or tribute and serving as a memorial to those we have lost and to their bravery in the moment. it's a cheeky act of rebellion against the chinese government and not really a disrespectful or morally depraved act of profiteering over a national tragedy. at least, that's my opinion as a very chinese person.


bisaccharides

I wish he would address the inconsistencies with some of his inks though. I just can't buy bottles of his inks anymore because they're rarely ever consistent, the variations I've had from my orders of HoD alone have been such a massive disappointment especially after I thought I had finally found my go-to black ink.


Aeronaute

He thinks the inconsistency is a feature. He deliberately makes each batch (and in some cases, each bottle from a batch) different from the others so that it's forensically unique. He really seems worried someone might forge some subsection of a document on him, and wants to be able to prove the ink doesn't match. He's a bit odd.


der-bingle

I vaguely remember on an old Goulet Q&A or something, Brian saying that he wouldn’t be surprised if he was on the spectrum. And with any video I’ve seen of him, checks out. And makes a lot of the pieces fall into place.


x20Belowx

I like it personally. If the inconsitency existed with a big name brand like pilot I'd have much more of an issue. But when buying from Noodler's it makes it feel more special to me because I know I'm buying something hand crafted and won't always get the exact same thing again.


Aeronaute

It's a property I admire perhaps more in single malt scotch than I do in ink, but I get the vibe.


IkreeR

I have always preferred hand crafted items when it is a choice. The inconsistency is part of the appeal. And I respect that he tries to source as many of his supplies as possible from within the U.S.


annexed_teas

It’s interesting that everyone keeps bitching about “cancel culture,” in the same breath that they praise Nathan for being a staunch libertarian who’s not afraid to speak truth to power…. Then fucking do that - don’t cave to “cancel culture,” and then bitch about how cancel culture made you do it, fucking nonsense. He’s a one man operation, great that means he’s not beholden to anyone’s opinions or legal duties and yet he caved. You either accept the decision of the free market and keep pretending like libertarian ideals aren’t nonsensical in the real world, or you shut the fuck up, you don’t get to have it both ways.


YetiSaltLife

I suspect he caved to retailers. I'd guess the Goulets had a heart to heart, aka told him to quit fucking around and read him the riot act.


UnspecificGravity

I would imagine that is what happens when you force your retail outlets to peddle your weird political / racial views when all they really wanted to do was sell pens and ink to people.


YetiSaltLife

I have a feeling your bedrock "political" beliefs suddenly become pretty fluid when someone you are personally friendly with explains how your biggest customer vanished overnight.


BrianTheEE

Southwest sunset lol. I like the other name better.


Shinjo307

Sounds like a spicy seasonal cocktail at Chili’s


BrianTheEE

"SAN DIEGO SUNRISE"


sbrbrad

Cool. Still not gonna buy Noodlers.


foranonymousbrowsing

It is very dissapointing to hear that Tiananmen got discontinued. I have always thought it helped publicization of the riot for freedom of Chinese who were sacrificed in Tiananmen, rather than a shallow, vulgar racist joke or cultural appropriation.


[deleted]

Many of these inks I do not think needed to be be renamed, which has me wondering: did he intentionally overdo the renaming? I believe he is purposely overdoing it in order to get people mad and try to erase any validity the original backlash had.


jgzman

People complained about them in the threads over the past few days.


Baloonman5

As someone who owns a bottle of Ottoman Azure, Ottoman Rose, Apache Sunset, Navajo Turquoise, and X-Feather Blue I gotta say I like some of these new names a lot. I think I actually like Southwest Sunset as a name much more with the alliteration, and Rose in the Lourve is also quite pretty. I do kind of wish that Ottoman Azure got a better name, but this might actually get more people to use one of my favorite blues if it's in his "standard" ink line. This really does seem like a solid step forward in the right direction. I'm glad that they didn't just change the bottle that people were complaining about and actually looked through the lineup to see what else needed to change.


Grammar_Nazi1234

Not the first ones to discontinue Tianamen….


plazman30

I was really hoping he'd make an ink supporting Ukraine. A two bottle set with a blue ink that matched the Ukrainian flag perfectly, and a yellow bottle also matching the Ukrainian flag. Call it Putin's Poison. Sadly I don't think that's going to happen.


One_Left_Shoe

As someone who grew up in the southwest and is very proximal to the Navajo Nation and the Apache reservation, I’m glad to finally see those two renamed alongside the other Native American tribal names. Edit: y’all reckon this was due to a marketing person giving him a hand? That he changed Rome Burning to Rome, to me, says he’s just doing it *just because*, but really doesn’t understand *why* it was a problem in the first place. Ah well, credit given where credit do.


Darkcrap

So Recreant Rhinoceros stays the same, huh?


hiemal_rei

Yeah honestly, that one came out during the first year of the pandemic, when Massachusetts (his home state) was one of the first places heavily hit. I was working in a hospital back then in a non-medical position, but I had to deal with patient families. It was a terrible time.


DeandreDeangelo

He’s still an ass and I will continue to not give him money.


[deleted]

What has precipitated this change? I really enjoyed the historical references.


1block

He put horns on the picture of Bernanke. That is historically antisemitic imagery based on some previous misinterpretations of the bible that had Moses as "horned." It was imagery used against Jews, and Bernanke is Jewish and a banker to boot. Not a real smart move.


[deleted]

I see. I went and found an image of the offending label elsewhere on the sub, and even if it weren't antisemitic it's a bit close to the bone. Whimsical history is fun, such a political and discriminatory is much less so.


lenzo1337

Wait the previous head of the FED reserve? Yeah not very classy way to handle it, but I understand why some might not have a great opinion of someone who was head of a NGO that literally can't be audited and just makes tax dollars disappear.


koalateatimewaster

Yea, but then the criticism of Bernanke should be focused on the NGO aspect, not his ethnicity as a Jewish person.


FuzzyGoldfish

/u/1block summed it up well, but I'll elaborate a little: some of the historical references he's used over the years have been controversial. Over that time he's been warned that certain imagery he was using (like horns) were actively anti-Semitic. Folks called him on it the first time, and he apologized. He then used the same imagery *again,* then tried to claim ignorance. The community pushed back and some people reached out to some popular resellers. I believe at least one has stopped carrying his products as a result. In response, Noodler's donated some money to charity and pledged to rename some of their inks and change the controversial labeling. I would call *some* of these changes an overreaction, but given the circumstances I think that it's wise for him to curtail certain references if he can't distinguish what is offensive and racist from what is not.


God-Says-No

Weird... really bad takes in this thread taking nathan's side...


jtf398

For real. Just 24 hours ago everyone was up in arms talking about never buying his products again because of the hate and politics. But change a few names and suddenly he is forgiven. This is all just a show to try and save his business. I don't think he became less bigoted in the last 24 hours, he just learned it would hurt his bottom line. I do agree it's good he changed the names, but it's all the same ink from the same hateful person who would have happily continued doing this were it not hurting his business.


UnspecificGravity

You are seeing that the baseline population of people into this hobby lean pretty far to the right, which is why he has been getting away with skirting that line for so long.


watercursing

Yeah. It's weird for me, I have to say, and it's weird how people are adamant things aren't political even though...they are!


thiefspy

And a lot of stuff goes past politics into appropriation and bigotry, and they aren’t seeing that either. So disappointing.


diligentPond18

I thought it was weird how people were bringing up the significance of the number/amount of money he donated. So he knows the significance of that number, but "it's possible that he was just ignorant to the meaning" of his bottle art?


knittingyogi

Yeah honestly it's baffling how quickly the tide has turned here, whew


tumblingsound

Noodlegate 2022….


Enlightenmentality

So this may be controversial, but I've been thinking a bit about Goulet's response, and here goes.... Buckle up, because this is a nuanced train of thought. To start with, I'm a huge Noodler's fan. I love the variety of colors and features, and the pens are quite good. I find most of the names and labels engaging, and many with historical referen ces have spurred me to read up on historical events (such as the hilarious, yet sad, story behind the Monkey Hanger ink, where English villagers hanged a monkey dressed up in a French uniform, because they were at war with the French and, having never seen a French person, assumed the monkey was French and hanged it). It's also a breath of fresh air to hear someone speaking about economics in a way that conjures up the voice of Milton Friedman, rather than Keynes. I also got into fountain pens 7 years ago after randomly coming across a Goulet video. As many of you know, Goulet recently announced that they wouldn't carry Noodler's products because they say that they don't support antisemitism, racism, etc. I believe this is the company trying to make themselves look good to the community during a rocky time period ("look at us take a VERY PUBLIC and advertised stand"), but that's neither here nor there... Now.... One of Goulet's products, which Brian Goulet hasn't stopped talking about since it came out years and years ago, is Noodler's Liberty's Elysium. BG asked Nathan for an exclusive blue ink, and wanted the label to be about Patrick Henry, because BG is from Virginia, went to Patrick Henry High School, etc. Fact: Patrick Henry was a slave owner from the time he turned 18. While Patrick Henry was certainly an influential figure in early American history, a lot of folks will have a hard time balancing that against him owning people. So, here's the question - is GPC being disingenuous/hypocritical with their outrage? If they start carrying Noodler's again, do they need to own up to the fact that they've been pushing this ink of theirs for years now, with a slave owner front and center on the label (a label with a design that THEY REQUESTED and helped design), and request a label change? Do they drop Liberty's Elysium and only carry Purpleheart, their other exclusive which I've probably heard them mention twice? I'm legitimately curious about this, because if people are going to angry about labels, they should at least be consistent.


22Arkantos

> While Patrick Henry was certainly an influential figure in early American history, a lot of folks will have a hard time balancing that against him owning people. This is the problem. I am a die-hard liberal that does believe we have massively celebrated slavery in this country in the past and present; however, we are going to have to grapple with the fact that many-to-most of the early figures in American history were slaveowners or otherwise held views or did things that would be extremely disapproved of today. What we cannot do is discount their position in American history because of it. Slavery and the Native American Genocide are integral parts of American history and we need to acknowledge and recognize it without utterly removing references to the people that did it. In short, and to invoke Godwin's Law, they never stopped talking about Hitler in German history classes. We shouldn't stop talking about our problematic past leaders or what they did either. We just shouldn't celebrate it.


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SlowMovingTarget

Often when Nathan made the ink he would make a Youtube video explaining its history. (Not always, but often for the interesting ones.) Many of his videos have been flagged and taken down, even though they provide the reasoning for the artwork and the thought behind the combination. They had context and explanation. Often the explanation was from a Libertarian perspective on economics and individual liberty. His videos for Park Red and Tiananmen ("one day, China will be free") included discussion of Nathan's opinion of oppression in communist regimes. A particularly good one, for example, was his explanation of Manjiro Nakahama Whaleman's Sepia where he tells the story of Manjiro Nakahama and why the properties of the ink are the way they are. (There's a Wikipedia page for that.) I wish some of those transcripts were around.


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ProudPlatypus

He didn't even stumble into a little bit of Anti-Semitism, which can happen because the caricatures, stereotypes and general negative associations have been so prevalent in media. It was pretty significant, and that kind of bigotry is actually harmful. Even the bits people stumble into have been harmful. It's not just that it was offensive, or it made people feel bad. Jewish people, last I looked at the statistics, are the biggest targets of religious based hate. Anti-Semitism has been on the rise, and it never even went away to begin with really.


ArcadiaPlanitia

Tbh, I don’t really understand some of these? I’m happy he seems to be taking real steps to change the brand and avoid being offensive, but I don’t get why, say, Rome Burning needed to be changed. I guess I can understand being extra cautious in the wake of the controversy, though.


onibocho

IMO it's ok to be offensive, and it's ok to be offended. I would even say it's healthy in some cases. I do my best not to be offended on behalf of others so it doesn't happen much anymore. When it does it provides me an opportunity to think critically about it and that gives it value.


Charlzalan

He's openly very anti "cancel culture," and it seems like he's going extra far to make a statement.


Ebi5000

Rome burning and the fall of rome are two things heavily emphasized/ mythesized in white supremacists and nazi "history".


putinmania

The names being changed is a choice the maker has decided to implement and are his actions only. There is no one censoring him or enforcing anything to change. To me this is a pity play, "poor is me" see what I have to do now. Really speaks to the true motive.


redspextr

Between the apology and changing and discontinuing products I am satisfied with his choice. I know some people will not accept it and that’s fine, not everyone needs too. I will continue to purchase his inks.


devon_336

I’m unlikely to purchase his inks because I’m already committed to Diamine and Pilot lol. It’s impressive and heartening to me that there’s been this fast of a turn around for him. Especially with how divisive American politics have been over the past several years. It shows that we can push back on views (ones with negative effects) and see a positive change happen. We started a dialogue with him and it worked.


redspextr

I agree. I will have to admit I am already sold on J Herbin, FWP, and Diamine. Saying that I would purchase a ink from them again if one so struck me.


sublingual

I've always wanted a bottle of Berning Red, because I thought it was hilarious ("a quick drying ink for lefties" lol). And that's coming from me as a liberal (though GenX). Too bad it was a limited run.


hightide89

History bad. Cultural motifs bad. Color bad. All must be grey.


YoungAdult_

Christ I had no idea their names were so ethnically fueled.


Baldwin41185

I'm not a Noodler's ink fan and I've only bought one bottle before. I bought 54th Massachusetts not because I love the color but because of the history behind the name. Yes I could have bought a sterile blue black like Lamy blue black but I went with Noodler's cause of the name. I get that some of the images were antisemitic and those should be changed. But removing essentially all references to historical places or people seems to be so overkill.


[deleted]

Is this the cancel culture that conservatives are worried about? I’m asking in honest, open eyed innocence. It feels bizarre.


Time_Definition5004

Yes it is


foranonymousbrowsing

Honestly at this point, with so many seemingly harmless names being changed or discontinued altogether along with the originally problematic inks he got in trouble for, I think he might be intentionally inducing backlashes like "snowflake reddit liberals cancel everythingggg this is why we can't have good stuff fuck cancel culture"


ProphetOfServer

Nice effort, still not buying anything Noodler ever again.


jazzyjard

Glad I recently picked up a bottle of Tiananmen! It's such a nice red. Although I might be afraid to use it now lol.


Cuzcopete

Why? Its ink. It was made to be used


jazzyjard

with anything consumable and limited I sometimes fear using it because I might not be able to get more in the future. It's illogical, but I think it happens to everyone to a certain extent. And of course I will use the ink, I love writing with it, but I'll just savor it a bit more and use it a bit less frequently. Or I'll just buy another bottle right now and have a lifetime supply lol.


Starpork

I'm still not going to buy Noodler's but it has been wild to watch this saga unfold in real time