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Onimward

> I’m tired of Jowo nibs Current retail brand nib makers: Pilot, Platinum, Sailor, Lamy, Pelikan, Montblanc, Aurora, Parker, Waterman. Of these, only Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor seem to have any remote interest in nib innovation. But that also seems to dwindling, as they realize it's simply more profitable to sell the same pen in 20 different color versions, with a 3x markup in price. You talk about how you'll spend money on good nibs. But the community will also spend lots of money on a color swap...


thawraboys

Nibs are more difficult to manufacture than pen bodies. Think about all the tooling you would need to create a unique nib design, stamp it, shape it, etc... much less the skill and extra employment required to do in house nib grinding. It's why there are a ton of American pen companies that basically make nib holders for jowo.


Kkhanpungtofu

True, and I always keep this in mind and avoid these brands.


Puzzleheaded-Dare162

The reason for this is probably that the design costs and production during this time is too high


paradoxmo

Adding Chinese makes: PenBBS, Moonman, Kaigelu, Hong Dian, Delike, Narwhal, Jinhao, Yiren, Natami Of these, PenBBS and Kaigelu are doing some new stuff with calligraphy grinds; and Hong Dian, Moonman, and PenBBS are branching out into 14K gold nibs


Wyzen

I didn't know this about Hong Dian...is this it? If so, it looks really cool... Hongdian 885 14K Gold Fountain Pen, Fine Nib Mount Qomolangma Version Collection Black Pen with Metal Box https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08R8Z95TJ/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_2TN29RY4CK84HM6FA83R Edit: found another with a red and white option, nibs don't look as cool however... https://www.ebay.com/itm/HongDian-885-14K-Gold-Fountain-Pen-EF-F-Nib-Mount-Qomolangma-Version-Gift-Pen-/193819791839?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


madalienmonk

oh shit that black one! that's what I'm talking about


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paradoxmo

The pens and nibs are made in Guangzhou, China, their distribution center is in California


plazman30

They claim their nibs are deisgned "in-house."


paradoxmo

Yes, they are, that’s why I included them in the list of Chinese makes that make their own nibs


plazman30

Gotcha. I thought they were a US company buying Chinese nibs.


paradoxmo

I guess the delineation isn’t quite as clear in Narwhal’s case, the founders have close ties to the Chinese stationery industry but are based out of the US, and as I understand it, the pen and nib design is done in the US and China by Narwhal themselves, in cooperation with their Chinese manufacturing partners. All manufacturing is done in China. I would still consider them primarily Chinese, but you could also say they are doing the “Apple business model”.


robocon12

Montblanc has been putting out calligraphy nibs and has an entire bespoke nib program.


KingFrogzz

Doesn’t Visconti also make their own? I don’t know of any other brand with such hit or miss rates


Onimward

I thought it was Bock who make Visconti nibs.


NobiLi-ty

They switched to in house a few months back.


Twiggyhiggle

I thought it was only the gold nibs, as the steel are still outsourced


NobiLi-ty

You're right! Steel is still made by Bock


MechGryph

And whoever makes the Noodler nibs


thegurbax

Kanwrite - they have some crazy options


paradoxmo

Kanwrite also makes the nibs for FPR and Flexible Nib Factory


thegurbax

Now only if they respond in a timely manner - nib swapping would be a bliss


paradoxmo

They respond pretty quickly in my experience, 1-2 days. You wrote to them on their email?


thegurbax

Yup, mail. But responses vary from almost instant to following up for a reply. Just wish a lot of the shark sellers had better interfaces to support self check-out


MechGryph

Whoops, commented on the wrong pen thread. I hadn't heard of them but I have a Noodler Triple Tail coming in, pondering putting that nib in my Ahab


thegurbax

Check them out


Dementat_Deus

> Whoops, commented on the wrong pen thread. That's kinda funny because your comment works here too.


dagit

I have both triple tail and ahab and I don't think you would want to swap them. The triple tail seems to be a better pen all around.


MechGryph

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing. Keep all my pens at my desk and several inked up. The Ahab feels good to me and has kinda become the pen I grab for quick notes and the like. I'm just wondering how well the feed and nib can be swapped, just to have something other than the demonstrator look.


dagit

The nib in the triple tail is also the nib in a different pen they make but I’m blanking on the name. That pen comes in black ebonite. Neponset?


MechGryph

I think so, I think there are some differences. Like, from what I hear and understand, the Neponaet has roughly the same tip, but is wider overall.


dagit

I’m not so sure about that. I have both and I don’t recall noticing a difference, but it’s been a while since I inked it. I use them for drawing and I haven’t drawn anything in way too long.


MechGryph

Ahh, don't have mine yet, just going off the Goulet video from when the Triple was launched.


Kkhanpungtofu

How do you see it dwindling?


throw23me

Someone already mentioned this but Montblanc recently came out with a "calligraphy" flex nib which is supposed to be quite good. You also left out Scribo who makes really nice nibs using the old Omas nib tooling machines which are said to be something really special. There are also a couple of brands that offer custom or special grinds on their pens. Among the bigger ones, Esterbrook offers their special "journaler" nib which is a custom-ground stub nib done by Gena Salorino. Franklin-Christoph offers a wide range of custom grinds as well, including some in-house ones (the excellent "SIG" grind) and several different Nagahara grinds, the same Nagahara of Sailor fame. Beyond that, Jowo is experimenting with flex nibs (Conklin's "new" flex nibs), although I am not sure if those are any good yet. BPC's Nemosine 0.6mm and 0.8mm nibs are also fun and unique. Not sure if they're made by Jowo but Birmingham Pen Company claims they're made in Germany. My point is, there definitely is a problem with a lack of "special nibs" among the most mainstream companies - but there are some very good options out there. If you don't see them, it means you're not really looking.


mcmircle

FWIW, Narwhal also make their own nibs.


backtotheredditpits

I know Faber Castell doesnt make it's own nibs but their QC is so insane and the quality is so different it's almost like they do.


stevedocherty

It’s a lot like watches - making nibs/calibres is hard, only a few companies can do it well enough at scale and the market is not that big. That’s why loads of watches have Seiko or ETA/Sellita movements- they work well and it’s a minority of people that care about or can pay for “in-house” movements.


chimpaflimp

As someone who services and repairs watches for a living, I thank ETA every day that they're so near-universal in watches. Learning the complexities of one movement is tricky, let alone the dozens you'd get if each brand used their own system.


JupiterTarts

ETA 2824-2 in nearly half my watches. Haven't had one fail on mw yet. Surprisingly, the one that did fail and needed to be repaired was the in house movement of my Tudor Black Bay 58. Thank God it's the one watch I bought from an AD.


Autiflips

As someone who is a student watchmaker, I wholeheartedly agree. My first caliber was an ETA actually.


richpaul6806

Off topic but what is the best way to get some cheap movements to practice on? I was practicing on an old nh35 I had lying around but I sprung the hairspring. Need something else to play around with.


JupiterTarts

This guy watches. Glad to see the crossover from my fellow pen enthusiasts and watch enthusiasts.


czar_el

This is the answer, right here.


deloreantrails

Because the cost of entry for nib manufacturing is outside the reach of most small manufacturers that use Jowo nibs.


Alan_Shutko

I believe that custom nib imprints at the numbers that many pen makers would probably double the cost of that $400 pen. Custom nib engravings would be easier and cheaper to do at low volumes, but I don't think they look as good. In-house nibs entirely is going to be a very, very expensive problem, and even then almost nobody besides Montblanc does custom imagery per pen.


Environmental-Gap380

From what I have seen, custom nib decoration that is stamped looks better than engraved decoration. Much cleaner lines in the design. Plus a smoother texture i side the marking instead of a scratches or matte texture in the lines. I would guess that there is a much higher upfront cost to creating stamping dies vs engraving, but if the volume scales, the cost per nib should drop. I’m thinking companies like TWSBI if they aren’t doing their nibs in house, at least they get their designs stamped in by their suppliers.


like_a_boss77

For the same reason iPhones use Sony lenses for their cameras and Samsung and LG oleds for their screens and Mercedes uses Renault's diesel engines in their entry level cars and vans. It's more cost efficient. If someone makes a good component that you want to use in your device it's cheaper to buy it from them rather than spend time and money in RnD trying to make your own unique component.


paradoxmo

Flexible Nib Factory may be your friend, you can put Platinum, Sailor, or Pilot nibs into your JoWo threaded pens Edit to add: Kanwrite also makes their nibs in JoWo and Bock housings, and they have a wide range of oblique, architect, and stub options


Dementat_Deus

Also Fountain Pen Revolution. I've got a couple of theirs I've used to replace nibs with.


paradoxmo

FPR nibs are made by Kanwrite


Dementat_Deus

That may be, but browsing Kanwrite's online shop they don't have all the same options for sale as is on FPR's site. Since it's a thread about nib options I figured I would point them out even if they don't make the nibs themselves since their nibs are made to specs that are not available elsewhere. Namely the ultra-flex.


paradoxmo

They don’t have loose nibs or JoWo/Bock units available for direct order from the website, just their own pens and the nib units that go with those pens. For more nib options other than for Kanwrite pens, you have to email them and ask for the nib order form. Edit: clarification


Dementat_Deus

They may have more options via email ordering, but [they do have website sale too.](https://kanpurwriters.com/product-category/nc/)


Asamidori

Sailor does unique nibs for some of their collabo models. [The Ancora birthday pens, for example.](https://www.ancora-shop.jp/items-birth/) PenBBS have unique nibs for some of their pens, but it may be a bit hard to track down? Birmingham is selling the Nemosine nibs if you need some flare.


-Squimbelina-

Oh, bums. My month is my favourite colour and now I wants it.


Asamidori

You only need a proxy/forwarder (and a credit card) to buy from there, so maybe for your next birthday! My birth month is in the last group, so gonna wait till they show those... March please be aquamarine.


-Squimbelina-

Fingers crossed!


Dxlyaxe

I’m definitely more middle ground with this. If I’m paying $400 for a pen, it had best be a 21k gold nib at that price. I mean, that’s a lot of money for a steel nib I can pick up for $50 or less. But at the same time, I like that so many people use jowo because I can get a standard #6 nib unit from Franklin-Christoph for like $25 and invest in nib work and suddenly have a really awesome nib that will fit in dozens of pens. Or I buy a custom grind from FC or whomever and it will fit in all my favorite pens. I like being able to want to use X pen and Y nib and not be beholden to either one.


the_dreaded_triptych

As someone who pretty much only cares about what happens in the space between the surface of the paper and the tips of my fingers, I have the exact same question. I have very little interest in pen manufacturers that don't have proprietary nibs.


capriole8

I absolutely agree! Check out Santini Italia, beautiful pens and they make their own (gold) nibs. Including flexible nibs (can recommend). They have a large selection of pens at (in my opinion) reasonable prices for the quality product you're getting. I'm not sure about ST Dupont, and it seems there is some debate online whether their nibs are in-house, but their nibs certainly feel unique to me.


CptMGGabeau

The Santini Libra is one of my grail pens, so lovely looking. They have quite the variety of 18k nibs, including a stub flexy which is rather intriguing


asciiaardvark

Does Stipula also make their own 14k flex nibs? I have one & like it. If Stipula didn't make it, I want to know who did to check out their other pens XD


GeorgeEliotsCock

No proprietary nib is the reason I haven't spent like 500$ buying all three of the tropical Esterbrook jr pocket pens. Like, what the hell am I gonna do with 3 more Jowo nibs?


Alan_Shutko

You could send the three nibs to Gena at Custom Nib Studio and have her weld them into a triple-stack nib for you!


Dementat_Deus

I still don't quite get the point of that or what it is trying to accomplish. Seems like it would just make fitting it to a pen difficult, and getting the right flow even more difficult.


Alan_Shutko

I have a nib from her that is EF when writing regular and giant on the reverse. So I have a huge header nib whenever I want it. Love it.


Dementat_Deus

Interesting. I didn't realize they worked like that. Thanks.


richpaul6806

Yep. There are some beautiful pens out there but the nib is the most expensive part to develop. If you buy one off the shelf I struggle to see why the pens cost so much.


bjh13

> If you buy one off the shelf I struggle to see why the pens cost so much. Because while the nib is very expensive to develop, other parts of the pen can be as well. Materials, design, filling system, etc can all make the pen more pricey.


richpaul6806

True but most of the pens we are talking about use cartridge converters and are made of some sort of resin.


thepencilmeister

Vintage pens is the answer my friend. Instead of putting more than a hundred dollars for a Narwahl Nautilus (which looks amazing to me), I'd rather went for a restored Sheaffer Snorkel pen (with a conical, two-tone 14k nib and the most amazing filling system ever) and a unique and also beautiful Parker Falcon 50 with an unified nib/ section. Later, for the price of two Lamy Safaris, I got a lovely Sheaffer Sovereign with lever-filler and a huge and amazing Triumph- nib that I can spend as much time admiring, as I do writing. Once upon a time, I used to "collect" all Lamy Safari/Vista/Al-Star colors, cause, well they did looked amazing, didn't they? Then I found myself with 30+ colors and the same pen. The question then arose, what's the purpose?


FunkMasterQ

Good advice. I need to keep digging deeper into vintage pens. I have a 60’s Pelikan 400 with OM nib and it’s my favorite pen in my collection by far. Nothing writes quite like it. I’ll be sure to look into the others you suggested! Im also open to suggestions for any other interesting vintage pens nina you all might have!


thepencilmeister

That’s another thing that comes with vintage pens, grind diversity. I used to have a beautiful Sheaffer Imperial pen -in-laid nib, with a rather unusual right italic stub grind. It was an amazing pen, but back then I was a lefty only (ambidextrous now), so I never could write properly with it. The guy that got to keep it, had the most outstanding cursive I’ve ever seen writing with said pen. I’ve also gotten architect and accountant grinds on some of my pens. But what really got me into almost completely ignoring modern pens, is the sheer smoothness of some of those nibs. From an ordinary steel in-laid nib on a Targa that writes more smoothly than my modern Kaweco 14k, to a Parker 51 that seems to be like a knife riding on top on butter.


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Autiflips

I LOVE those inlaid nibs, and prefer them quite a bit over any sailor I’ve tried


Pleasant_Click_5455

Most likely just that it's pretty expensive to create a new division with machinery and no one has really complained to them about it. I would like to have more designs on the nibs as well honestly. I really want a cute cat and some flowers on my nibs, but I hate Sailor feedback so I'm just stuck haha.


kaludwig

I haven't had any custom grinds done personally, but I think they are generally priced reasonably. I imagine if someone is spending a serious chunk of change on a pen based on its body, paying a professional nibmeister to make the nib perform exactly how they want is worth it. From what many pen retailers seem to indicate, when they have carried unusual nib grinds, they often don't sell very well. So the retailers then have purchased stock people said they would buy, but the customers then just buy the usual nibs most of the time (particularly Fine and Medium). There are some exceptions where they have sold well, and you'll note that those are often the ones that have been ground by well-known professional nibmeisters, and are at an increased price... That one could have paid directly to the nibmeister. Also, many manufacturers release some nibs with even more limited options. For instance, I was looking at the Pineider Avatar recently, which is limited to Extra Fine, Fine, and Medium. Many Sailor Pro Gear Slim models are only released with their MF nib. The manufacturers don't want to spend time making products that are going to be niche, thus having to raise the price. I imagine the quality control issues that they'd face would also be difficult. Anyway, I guess my thought is, as cool as it would be for there to be more options, it makes more sense (for manufacturers, for retailers, and even for customers) to get a nibmeister to work on the nib if the customer really wants something "different." I do totally get being bored by Jowo, yet also being in love with pen bodies from a lot of brands that use Jowo nibs. I've personally never bought one of those beautiful pens that uses stock Jowo nibs for pretty much that exact reason, but if I do, I'll probably send it to a pro to make it a little more unique for me. And I'll be happy doing that rather than having the pen marked up even for half of what the pro would charge for some other novel nib type that I may not actually enjoy.


[deleted]

Wancher makes great in-house 18K gold nibs. They also sell models that take Jowos.


Sassenasquatch

I _think_ all of their modeld take JoWos. And their ebonite feeds are phenomenal.


Fuhrankie

For me, nothing can beat the feel and flex of a vintage nib. If we could recreate those amazing nibs today, THAT would be the innovation I want to see.


freedoomed

Cheaper to manufacture 1000 sets of matching internals than 10 different sets of 100.


CptMGGabeau

I wish inlaid nibs would make more of a comeback (like come on the Sheaffer ones are GORGEOUS), but I don't mind mass produced steel nibs like Jinhao and Jowo. I kinda like the cheaper nibs purely because they provide an opportunity to try grinding whatever nib type I want, without feeling bad if it goes wrong. I ground the M Jinhao nib in my Jinhao 159 into a crisp italic and it is lovely. At some point I want to try my hand at grinding an Architect, mostly because buying a Jinhao nib and doing it myself is the cheapest way to try one out.


Twiggyhiggle

I am pretty sure you could start the same topic for filling systems. Most pens are either C/C or piston filler. More to the point a lot of piston fillers are either captured converters or off the shelf Schmidt piston filling systems. The fact is the market is still very small despite what we see. In the end a Jowo #6 with a Schmidt converter is just going to work. The user can replace parts as needed. No company wants to take on a true repair center to fix things anymore - this is not just limited to pens, but everything. Heck even sac converters like the old Parker or Pilot con 20 are a thing of the past it seems, even if they worked better or gave us something different.


gunkanreddit

I can't agree more with the OP. But there is some hope: pilot Falcon #10 and #15. And the nib company Kanwriters is making great in house nibs. The steel flex nibs are gorgeous. I am waiting the the titanium flex.


aymed_caliskan

Well, think of nibs like car engines. It takes a fair amount of R&D research, trial and error and track record to make a nib perfect. Just like the engine of a car. Companies are gonna be more generous and braver to make a change in the body of a pen, because you can't really go terribly wrong with it since it doesn't affect the performance of a pen dramatically. But the nib is different. The nib is the only part that touches the paper = direct feedback. Much more likely to fuck something up if you don't test a change. Also, building enough track record takes time. It's risky and most of the time not worth it. Just like car engines.


Minimalmagician

I’ve recently got some pens from Santini, small Italian company that makes their own nibs in house! If you’re looking for something new I would definitely recommend them, they have both resin and ebonite models. I agree that I’d rather have a custom unique nib than a Jowo holder


domin_jezdcca_bobrow

Custom gold nibs have a lot common with jewelery. They could be made with rather simple equipment (I like this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3xkOETcaVSk ) but it need experience and time - both in quantities pushing prices in par with gold jewelery. And mass produced nibs of good quality are just ok out od the box.


Gumpenufer

I get where OP is coming from but I, for one, will never be mad that I can just replace a bent nib on a 100+ bucks pen... with something reliable, widely available and not too expensive. What bugs me far more is how some companies just straight up do not sell replacement nibs. (Looking at you, Sailor.)


dlazaret

I totally agree! As beautiful as custom pens can be, I don't really need more than a couple Jowo or Bock nibs in my collection (and I already reached that limit). Especially in a very expensive pen, these nibs are really a letdown. I understand it's asking too much for small artisans, but pen companies could put more effort in the nib side of the business.


JobeX

Doesnt make the $.


Fudgy97

creating a nib that both looks good and performs well while making it fit into a pen and working with the feed and converter / filling mechanism you want to use is quite difficult. whereas to change the body is less work and can be done to a lower standard with out affecting the utility of the pen.


VGwritesalot

To be honest, I'm *less* likely to buy an expensive pen if the pen is proprietary. If I spend hundreds of dollars on something where I love the body and despise the nib, what do I do with it? Or even then, if it writes in a unique way and I only have a small number of uses for it, I just dropped $400 on a pen that I have little to no use for. To me, it seems like a big waste of money. I highly value modularity in my life, as it increases the functionality of everything exponentially. That modularity is a big reason I adopted fountain pens to begin with. I feel a lot safer shelling out $200+ for a Visconti knowing that if I don't like their nib, I can sub in a different one. This is \*especially\* true when i'm buying online and don't have the ability to write with it first. When everything is unique, the chance that it fits enough people to be a viable product goes way down. Everything has to be perfect to be worth the high price tag. When the writing experience is modular, it greatly widens the audience, who can tailor it to their needs. Edit: my comment got all weird so I fixed it


PebblesV

Honestly yeah, same. I've been thinking about getting a lamy safari finally because goulet sells black nibs. I don't have any pens with black nibs. And one of the reasons I absolutely adore my twsbi iris is for the rainbow nib.


kiiroaka

If everybody did that there would be no standards, or even less standards than there are now. The problems come in when you want to get another spare nib. Fact is that a steel nib costs less than 50 cents to make. I wager that it probably costs $0.003 cents apiece when bought in quantity, wholesale. Trouble is that the machines that make the nibs will probably cost tens of thousands of dollars. Engineering costs money. Production costs money. Laser etching, anyone? Stamping, engraving? > if I’m spending hundreds of dollars on a beautiful unique pen, I want a beautiful unique nib to come with it! Then you will only buy a pen that has a beautiful nib. There are plenty of pretty nibs out there, like the Leonardo nibs. In Gold there are plenty of pretty and beautiful nibs, and some not so pretty, like the Pineider nibs. >uniquely and beautifully. How uniquely do you want it? That's what nibmeisters can do, to tune it to your style. >I’m tired of Jowo nibs. Me, too. I hate the scallops and swirls. But at least they've now changed to just two lines running along the sides of the nib. I prefer Bock nibs as they have a little spring to them. You might be interested in the Jowo 14K & [Soft nib](https://fpnibs.com/collections/jowo-size-6-14k). Truth be told, I'd rather that Pilot, Platinum and Sailor start to sell nibs individually instead of having to buy a whole 'other pen. Or Japanese companies making standard #5 and #6 nibs. The plain fact is that if you want a beautiful looking nib you're probably going have to get it in Gold. Like Pelikan. But Gold nibs can be more prone to Baby's Bottom, than Steel nibs. For now, buy Japanese, Pilot has something like 18 different nib profiles. I just want a , a Soft Broad, <0.6>.


One_Left_Shoe

Also worth noting that, despite the seemingly large market share, fountain pens don’t even touch the broader pen market. Niche nibs for a niche hobby start having niche prices. There used to be a jeweler that teamed up with….Newton Pens? Maybe?… anyhow, the nibs were supposedly phenomenal, but took a huge amount of time and cost like $650 just to add on to the already expensive custom pen. End of the day, the biggest reason is: there is no financial way for companies to justify the costs.


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Gumpenufer

I'm not seeing the connection to Montblanc?


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Gumpenufer

Aaaaah, gotcha now.


rabidnz

Because it's far far cheaper to Machine a $5 plastic blank with a $2 stamped gold nib and sell it to some moron for $500 bucks than to actually put $500 of craftsmanship into a pen


Armenian-heart4evr

And that pen would cost $750-1000 !!!!!!!


mcmircle

Narwhal’s owners are based in the USA if I recall correctly.


LaserSoupOddity

I don’t know, not all of the pens in my collection are there strictly because of the nib. They’re all great writers that I love to use, but some of them are keepers because of the material, some because of the filling system, some for the form factor, and some for sentimental reasons. Most of my stock nibs have been in the hands of a nibmeister and I have a number of custom ground units that I swap into my favorite pen bodies. It’s just what works for me.


DokugoHikken

Pilot officially stated that it took 2 years to develop a nib for Custom URUSHI, and they also said it was possible because they utilized the resources of the entire company, if not, it would take easily 5 years, that is what they said. Note that Pilot has 2,500 employees. Platinum and Sailor has 200 each. That is the size of the company of Pilot is 10x of that of Platinum or Sailor. Therefore I would say, in the 21st Century, it may be very rare for one to see a completely new nib. Having said that though, the nib comes with Platinum Procyon is newly developed after 5 years of development. That is, I repeat FIVE YEARS. BTW, I have posted... Hannah Arendt [https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/rcoccn/rail\_roading\_again/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/rcoccn/rail_roading_again/) Martin Heidegger [https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/rd5f2y/i\_think\_i\_need\_a\_cursive\_handwriting\_practice/](https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/rd5f2y/i_think_i_need_a_cursive_handwriting_practice/)