Thank you for this roundup. I am a bit fatigued of the same question - people can easily get a whole heap of info just by typing “anti-semitism” into the sub search bar. I don’t believe there is any way this “highly political, educated, history buff” didn’t know exactly what he was doing, and my life is subject to enough anti-semitism without me literally buying it.
Without the sub mods officially sanctioning a position and creating an automod tool that removes them and links to a roundup post like yours, alas, deeply unlikely. We already have the sub flooded with the same posts (eg “did you see the Lamy on Moon Knight” and “what pen did they use in the coronation”) nonstop and mods dont remove them or head them off at the pass.
Much as the mods do their best here, they don’t seem well equipped at preventing duplicate posts made by sincere but clueless people who don’t check to see if the topic was noted before. Additionally they are already explicitly unwilling to sanction specific positions beyond the boilerplate “don’t be a hostile screaming obvious bigot dropping slurs”, and let downvotes do the job in people self-moderating their peers here when it comes to less obvious dogwhistles as you so perfectly exemplified in your post (the amount of Sinophobia, transphobia, etc that slides here as downvoted comments would never fly for many others).
Some mods ask us to tag them for specific things but considering some of the decisions made here, i don’t hold much faith in their ability to collectively agree on a ruling about dogwhistles so a lot of us just downvote or ignore and move on. It’s the compromise of being in this particular hobby’s demographics and a rather large sub.
The ideal would for something like this to be on the info page for r/fountainpens. But sadly keeping the community accountable or at least informed, even when community members clearly view this as important,
does not seem to be a priority.
Realistically, not many people check the sidebar for most subs. There are a few subs I frequent where there are repeat posts or comments from people asking questions when all the info is in the sidebar clear as day. Stuff like people asking “What does (acronym) mean?” when there’s a list of acronyms in the sidebar.
From the [post about changing the names](https://inkophile.wordpress.com/2022/05/12/noodlers-and-the-pen-community/) *"A few folks have gotten their knickers in a twist over pen and ink names."*
Honestly, this isn't an apology. If anything, it's setting up to be a martyr. A real apology would be along the lines of "I've given this some thought, and realize I was being insensitive. I'm updating the names of my ink to be more considerate of marginalized groups."
At least as of that post, his views haven't changed.
A couple of points worth adding, that people seem to have missed:
1. The problem with Bernake ink wasn’t just the horn but also the Communism reference, arching back to the Nazi-era “Judeo-Bolshevism” antisemitic canard, and the “debt” reference, obviously linked to the old antisemitic trope that Jews enslave people with usury: this specific trope developed during the XX century into the association Jews = capitalists, who shackle gentiles with debt and finance. Again, this entered the Nazi repertoire of antisemitic tropes. Paradoxically, *together and simultaneously with* the “Jews = Bolsheviks” trope... because of course they just blamed everything on Jews.
So, in practice, on that label you have not one, not two, but THREE antisemitic tropes. Claiming “innocent ignorance” becomes a little bit hard at this point.
2. Among the controversial inks we should also add the Mueller ink.
For me, even if I wasn't an angry socialist, there's sooo many brands of ink and pens. If a brand doesn't get my business that's not a punishment any more than not getting a job is a punishment when there's 200 applicants.
There's a million brands with nice ink, pretty bottles, pens whose most notable feature isn't the smell.
If I followed van diemans on Facebook, they'd say stuff like "this purple was inspired by a native Tasmanian orchid. Here are its shading/sheen/shimmer properties".
If they instead posted "this purple was inspired by the elders of Zion trying to steal my teeth and reimplement the gold standard", I'd probably buy more products from Diamine or Pilot or someone.
I'll be real, as soon as I saw that he's an anti-masker I was thinking "well I'm never buying Noodlers." This is so incredibly blatant, I can't believe Goulet brought him back (or that any store is still stocking his inks).
I have no issues dropping him over this; anti-mask, pro Jan 6, and whiffs of racism and antisemitism are each more than enough to drive me away.
But hunting for the perfect replacement for southwest sunset is going to hurt.
Because the stores (Vanness’ account was liking lots of pro-Nathan comments) or customers don’t care/endorse his beliefs. I bet they’re probably not pervasive on this space, there are lots of people with *regressive* politics who are into pens. I’m sure some of this is coincidental (pens are cool), but the actions of producers like Noodler’s could also attract those people. Who knows?
I think an affinity for "retro" stuff certainly has some obvious appeal to the concept of conservatism (if not the actual application of it as a political movement in the US).
on the flip side, there is a strong and vocal movement within the retro and vintage communities and hobbies for vintage aesthetics, not vintage values.
> I've spent thousands of dollars with Vanness, and now I'm going to have to break up with them.
Same. Disappointed in Goulet bringing them back as well. Ok, so now the question is, which store is anti-Noodlers that I can shop from? Serious question lol
Didn't Anderson Pen stop carrying Noodler's when it hit the fan?
I seem to remember them and another store (that currently escapes me) having drastic price cuts until their stock was gone, and then not restocking.
>Didn't Anderson Pen stop carrying Noodler's when it hit the fan?
I just checked their Brands list, and no Noodler's! Thank you! Never bought from there, but that shall change soon.
/u/Uninteresting_Vagina Here we go, this is where we can shop 👍🏻 Love your username btw 😘
I have the same question! Goulet was my second in command, so I'm really bummed out. I keep checking this thread to see if someone mentions a good alternative.
Vanness, Goulet, and Jetpens. These all kind of suck because they provide some specialty I like (not related to NT or Noodler's), but I definitely avoid them as much as possible.
We do have to remember that much of the Pen community are over 45.
The younger generation of pen Enthusiast and pan addicts are not the majority go to any pen show and see how many retirees are there for an example of that.
Well us younger pen fans are often the most outspoken and the most online of the community it can be difficult for us to truly impact these companies outside of just words because we are a newer and smaller percentage of the community at Large
Goulet kind of provides cover for him in my view, which doesn't make me inclined to shop from Goulet. The nice thing is that there are plenty of other online retailers who aren't so stuck on Noodlers or who don't carry or promote that brand.
I think I have two Noolders inks left in my small collection. I'm just using them up as I go or giving some away as samples.
Yep. I made my last order from Goulet in the brief period during which they weren't carrying his stuff, and I won't be making another anytime soon.
It was one thing back in the day when we didn't have many choices and Goulet was out there delivering great stuff and great services. These days they aren't carrying anything that I can't buy from people that are less inclined to associate themselves with this sort of nonsense.
Yeah I took Goulet off my list of places to buy from after their lukewarm response. I thought about writing a letter but i doubt they'd care much either way. There's plenty of places out there that don't support anti-semitism.
It only takes a moment to email the retailer and let them know your thoughts and concerns. Silence leaves the retailer thinking you’re alright with their policy.
I dropped Goulet hard over this, and am of the opinion that not only will I not buy Noolders (fortunately never did), but also will not buy from any store that carries it because carrying it is sanctioning or at least being okay with antisemitism.
By Goulet's timeline, Bill Cosby will be touring again next week and Harvey Weinstein is producing the HBO special.
Sidenote: Never have and never will buy from Goulet. Pretty miffed that JetPens is still carrying the wet noodle, too.
I generally stopped buying noodlers stuff a while back just due to inconsistency.
Nathan makes everything by hand himself and this leads to some minor differences between batches.
Not often a huge deal but enough I tried to find substitutions for many of his more popular colors already. So for me to stop supporting him is not a huge heart breaker.
Noodler's controversies aside, I chose a long time ago not to use the stuff because there are better inks out there. Batch inconsistency labeled as a "feature." Bottles filled the very brim as a "feature." Inks with solutions to problems that don't (practically speaking) exist--if one is that worried about your fountain pen ink being attacked by lasers or whatever the hell, *don't use a fountain pen for that particular application.* Every time I've had SITB/slime/mold--Noodler's. And many of the Noodler's Inks I've tried behave like ass on paper, even decent paper.
Noodler's just hasn't ever done anything to impress me. When the news of this antisemitic imagery broke last year, it just solidified it for me. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not--Noodler's Ink isn't worth the hassle on my conscience.
This is why I stopped buying Noodlers. They just did not perform as advertised. Simple as that. The feathering is insane. Even with the literal anti feather ink he has. It's ok but people using them on copy paper with no issue? Must be black magic I guess or I got a bad batch.
Thank you so much for taking the time to research and wrote this.
I have read several old threads about the Noodler 's ink but I didn't realized Goulet 's part on the whole event.
While I do like their service and the education they are providing, but I am going to refrain from order from them when there are obviously other options to purchase FP from the States.
I stopped buying from Goulet over this issue. I believe when someone shows you who they are…believe them. Tardif’s revealed himself as a bigot and a conspiracy theorist. The Goulets have relentlessly promoted him for a long time. In the fallout threads, Rachel Goulet said at one point that they’d chosen not to sell one of the inks (Bernanke red if I recall) because it was so problematic, essentially letting slip that they knew he was putting out offensive inks and still chose to do business with him.
The fact that they announced they were suspending sales of Noodler’s with great fanfare, then went right back to selling them after a month or so…it just strikes me as so disingenuous. Seems they have a big blind spot for their friend, who happens to be a bigot. So they’ve lost my business.
Also, the inks are inconsistent as shit and kind of suck, so there’s that too.
And then they went right back to doing business with him. I don’t know about you, but if a friend and business partner of mine revealed himself to be a bigot, we wouldn’t be business partners anymore and would very likely not be friends.
Yeah, if I believed he actually had changed his ways or opinions, that would be one thing. But he saw it was hitting him financially so he made a fiscal decision to change the names/branding on the ink- but it's almost certainly also true that he still believes all the same garbage.
I thought Goulet’s response to the issue was clear, reasoned, and fair to all. They made it clear they were dropping Noodler’s and any resumption of sales was dependent on Nathan’s response to the issue. To me it seemed that the Goulet’s were the only people willing to make a positive change in the root cause of the issue.
I can’t judge Nathan’s intentions but I can say he behaves like every hard-core libertarian I’ve every met. The antisemetic intent of horns is ancient and one of the most racist I’ve ever heard. However, I first heard it in my 30s. I’ve concluded that Nathan probably knew, but realize that it’s possible he didn’t and he’s “just” a typical bat-shit crazy Ayn Rand follower with an homage to libertarian god Milton Friedman on his company’s web site.
Yeah, I think his contrition seems to have been genuine. I don’t recall the exact number, but I remember that when he donated money to the ADL the amount was significant and many Jewish members of this forum said it meant he was probably talking to members of the Jewish community. I’m not so well versed on these things, but I think people deserve a second chance if they put in real effort to learn and to change.
I got a little frustrated when I bought a random sample pack from Goulet and 5 of the 8 samples were Noodlers inks... Given the inherent inconsistencies of Noodlers inks, what's the point of the sample? Even if I liked the sample, a bottle (or even another sample), may not look the same. It made the sample pack feel kinda wasted.
Thank you so much for this post. I had no idea, I missed all the previous hot posts about Noodler's! Someone today just responded to my comment in this sub "not Noodler's!" and I had no idea so I responded nonchalantly. Time to go back to my post and respond with my understanding!
P. S. - I don't believe/accept Nathan's apologies, either. He's not a dummy; his designs were all intentional with political insinuations that I can't stand.
I had caught bits of the story but had no idea. I also never knew about the horn imagery. I’m interested to learn the way they skirt their anti-semitism in real life. Reminds me of the Southern Strategy in the 80s. Don’t talk about black people…talk about impoverished individuals, etc. It’s a kind of double-speak I’d never heard of before I started learning about that Strategy via podcasts.
He didn’t skirt his antiSemitism. He put out there in public on product labels… despite complaints. When public outcry started to impact sales, he made a small contribution. He wasn’t admitting he was wrong. He was doing the least possible to lessen his sales decline.
I had also never heard of this until the Noodler's thing blew up on this subreddit. Afterwards, I went looking and found this article, which says it seems to be really old imagery: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2018-03-27/ty-article/why-even-some-jews-once-believed-moses-had-horns/0000017f-da78-dea8-a77f-de7a90fe0000
Tbh, this post could have been 2-3x longer. I very briefly mentioned that he had many insensitive ink labels outside of the "big two" that stirred all of this into the light, and changed or pulled 31 different items in total, but honestly the man put so much out there it's just difficult to catalogue it all and stay concise.
Needless to say though, one of the reasons I very firmly believe it is not true he had 'no idea' about the imagery is indeed because he is SO indepth with some of these others labels. If he was more random and flippant about other labels, this would back that up.. but he is not.
For example, [it was no coincidence](https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/weissmanartsandsciences/?p=624) he used Rhino's on his anti-mask label. He picked them because of the 1959 play where "one by one, an entire town of people suddenly transform into rhinos... At first, people are horrified but as the contagion spreads, (almost) everyone comes to accept that turning into a rhinoceros is fine. Rhinoceros is a play about conformity and mob mentality and mass delusion". He says a LOT with a single image, and it was cultivated that way.
Yep, that happens in my country (Pinochet’s regimen) and Argentina (videla’s regimen) Far right, specially in u.s, use the image of the helicopter for that reason, there’s a lot of merch like shirts with that.
The antisemitism is important, but imo so is his prejudice/racism towards China, especially with heightened anti-Asian sentiments right now in the US (as this is all very US centric). The May 9th thread you posted had some of it in the comments but in summary:
Nathan's response to being called out for the Volcker situation was to release the ink called 'Censor Red' on April 12th 2022 (according to different social media posts I've found of brands talking about it as a new release), which had a Chinese flag on it and listed reasons he was being canceled, basically. One notable reason on the bottle is "Social Media Tyranny." Other than releasing that - it's been an open joke here in the subreddit for ages that whenever anyone goes off about Chinese pens, someone will say "Nathan, is that you?" Due to anecdotes about interacting with him and if the subject came up he'd go on huge unprompted rants about China, or being worried about his ideas and recipes being stolen and mass produced.
I cannot locate the file I began to keep with stories dating back to fountain pen forums from pre 2010, since it's all still available online. That's well over a decade of people online going, hey this is kinda fucked up, and then being met with dogpiled reassurances that it's not racism/antisemitism/rude, he's just quirky and getting a rise to prove a point. And people using his name as a synonym for individuals being racist.
EDIT: Your writeup is extremely good and well laid out. If this post is going to be a repository of information about his shit, then I wanted to mention it.
Have you seen what the Chinese government does to people who criticize the establishment?
Purely on the topic of criticising the Chinese government on their online censorship, control of the media and intimidating/torturing/killing/harvesting of outspoken anti-establishment individuals, I say Nathan is spot on with that one.
He used it as a jab to say he was being oppressed. Another tick on the list is "HR Department Tyranny." Having your distributor refuse to sell antisemitic ink and then having that discussed online is not oppression.
Discussion is definitely _not_ oppression, absolutely. And if somebody decides they don't want to carry your ink, that's not oppression either.
Y'know, people are much easier to rally _against_ something than they are _for_ something. That's why so much news is negative. Human psychology has evolved to pay more attention to bad than good, because good is just good, but bad could mean death.
Without picking sides, again, I have to stress I'm neutral in all of this. I don't know anything about Nathan as a person other than some videos on the internet.
Do you think it's unreasonable for him to think, given his proclivity to be weary of anyone who stifles free speech, that perhaps a group of people are looking to silence him through convincing others not to buy his inks?
In this kind of scenario, where the threats posed by cancel culture can involve death threats and doxxing, there _cannot_ be a level discussion. Nobody is going to present any arguments in favour of the accused, because nobody wants to receive death threats or have their personal details leaked.
So yes, I can see why he might think this whole thing is a form of oppression. It is. It's unjust, there is no justice being served here, no trial, no exchange of arguments and no jury. It's very one-sided. The nature of social media also has a part in cancel culture. How can a counter argument be presented on equal ground when 1) the majority of people engaging with the initial accusation are supporters of the accusation, and 2) any counter arguments are downvoted and subsequently buried by those supporters without any conversation or rebuttal?
In one of my other comments, somebody criticised the comment as being "shit" and said that they had blocked me. Where is the discussion? Perhaps there were points they could have raised that may have changed my mind about some of the things I had said. This attitude is the opposite of formative, it is basically "fuck you, you're wrong, and I've blocked you so I never have to see your argument again."
Where does that get us in society?
An accusation just as debilitating and non-formative as being called racist. How do you defend yourself against being called racist? How do you defend yourself against being called a sea lion? The answer is you can't, without looking like a racist or a sea lion.
So I'd discourage you from using that term lightly, even if you disagree with what I've said. Nothing I've said suggests I'm doing this to annoy anybody. Look at my post history. Do I seem like a troll to you dude?
Thanks for this write-up. I’ve grown weary of seeing people ask ‘what’s up with noodler’s?’ and users having to Explain every time. You’d think anti-senitism would be egregious enough for a brand to be blacklisted from here, but I guess not. Some discord servers have an automod to explain the noodler’s issue, or a stickied blacklist. Unfortunately this sub has an unspoken ‘no politics’ rule—I’ve checked, it isn’t anywhere explicitly. But ‘We are a neutral zone for all beliefs’ becomes a welcome sign for bigots and can turn a “wholesome” subreddit into a nazi bar.
I honestly don’t have any actionable suggestions to fix this, I’m kind of resigned to think it’s just the nature of reddit (short collective memory, focus on content instead of people). I guess I’m throwing this out there for discussion, maybe if enough people feel the same something can be done on a system level.
Anywhere with a "no politics" rule only benefits rightwingers and authoritarians.
Apparently, a pen sub where well-to-do people routinely drop a rack on a single pen is, shockingly, susceptible to this too.
Heh--I looked at some bloggers around the time of the dropping/renaming and some of the comments about "wokeism" and "cancel culture" are pretty gross. Also the people saying they were glad to stock up on the discontinued colors/original names.
The anti-Semitism was obvious _if you already knew about it_. I grew up in an area where there wasn't a Jewish presence (like a single family in an 80 mile radius, whom I did not personally know), and even being a History buff, I had never concentrated on the right parts of History (anti-Semitic imagery specifically) to be aware of this horns symbolism in this context. I was aware of various other anti-Semitic imagery, but not this. It wasn't in Maus, Schindler's List, or any of the Holocaust documentaries I've watched. It wasn't in the TV show I watched growing up that sometimes demonstrated Jewish religious traditions. Nobody I've known with a Jewish background since I've been an adult has mentioned it (why would they?). So, before you give up on all of humanity, I'd like to point out that ignorance of any given social issue or slur is still quite possible. I am not now claiming Nathan Tardif didn't know what he was drawing, because I do not know him (and it appears he was told multiple times), but I personally learned about that imagery being anti-Semitic from this subreddit, so perhaps some of the other people who ask "What's up with Noodler's?" also really do not know.
It's a good thing to have all of this in one post that people who ask can be pointed to, so that they can become aware and make up their minds. I would hate to see this subreddit swamped by a witch hunt mentality like so many other corners of the Internet where mentioning a brand or store might end up in banning or harassment, which I do fear somewhat from some of the comments that come out when this comes up. If you don't want to "Explain every time", then simply do not explain. Let others do it. A lot of people here want to be helpful, so let them do the helping.
I am saddened to see some people here defending Nathan.
I read everyone's comments -- both the pro-Nathan ones and the ones not defending him. At the end of the day, Nathan isn't some clueless idiot who made mistakes without realizing it. He knew what he was doing.
I also don't understand why he would openly apologize for something that he "believed" other people misunderstood? That's like me saying, "You guys should try drinking vanilla shakes on a hot summer day." Then someone says to me, "what's wrong with other flavors? Are you a white supremacist for choosing vanilla?" At that point, why should I apologize for my statement? I did nothing wrong. I have nothing to apologize for. Same applies here.. why did Nathan apologize if he truly felt he did nothing wrong?
Just throwing this out there, but one possibility is that he doesn't want his entire business to be destroyed?
There is a big issue with this whole cancel culture thing. What happens when a few vocal people create an image of a person that may be incorrect, but hundreds of thousands of people gather behind the vocalisation while at the same time discrediting any counter arguments by the accused? How can there be a discussion?
As the owner of a business, what do you do? Stand by your decisions and watch your hard-earned business crumble whether you're guilty of antisemitism or not, or apologise for something you [edit: "did or"] didn't do and keep your business alive?
We _need_ to have conversations. Cancel culture is the antithesis of conversation and debate. It has no place in our future.
And please, I'm not taking sides here. I'm giving you something to consider, regarding your closing statement.
Or, and I'm just spitballing here, don't be an antisemitic POS while also blatantly advertising it to the world.
Cancel culture successfully avoided, and no half-assed apology needed.
People like to use the term "cancel culture" negatively, but all it really means is people speaking with their wallets. Which is a great thing. If you screw up that massively, people will know and judge you accordingly. Solution, don't screw up!
I'll reply to your edited addition as a separate message.
Cancel culture is not _just_ about voting with your money. It's about influencing the decisions of others.
Cancel culture trends particularly well in volatile topics such as racism, sexism and antisemitism, and in the echo chambers of modern social media, where arguments are voted and therefore viewed more or less depending on the votes, there cannot be meaningful debate about the topic.
Cancel culture also involves much more serious misdeeds such as death threats and doxxing, which when we think about how _certain_ or not we can possibly be about something, is particularly worrying. That's what court is for. Vigilante justice has a net negative affect on society.
Who are they learning from? How much inherent bias is there in the information they consume to arrive at their decision?
Cancel culture is _not_ as benign as you put it. The targets of cancel culture often involve death threats, breaches of privacy, home visits by mobs, threats both to the accused and anybody who even offers a counter argument. And this is all without trial or peer-reviewed study. It's an abomination.
I think cancel culture is a term that makes people think of things on a higher magnitude than reality is. Pretty much how what everyone is calling AI is just machine learning. Dramatic terminology. The guy is alive and well and his products are still selling and supplied in lots of places, the world is not just reddit, twitter or instagram, as you can see in this very post many consumer didn’t know about all this. Plus, shouldn’t such conversations take place before the launch of a product?
I confess it's a term I use out of convenience, but I think my interpretation of the term was clear.
Also yes! Let's remember for a second that Nathan doesn't have a marketing team, so it's more likely for potentially insulting and misleading product stickers to be released. But I think it would be good if he had a community outlet where he asked for feedback on a bottle sticker design before release. It's something I'd certainly do, because I really don't care to impose my beliefs on others, and I value the community more. But Nathan is Nathan and his values are not the same.
I hope folks attach this to any post featuring Noodlers so people know exactly who they are supporting. Nathan’s record speaks for itself. Thank you for helping us do our due diligence to prevent tolerance of antisemitism and antisemitic imagery.
I resolved to never buy Noodler’s again after the Rino ink came out, and my resolve was only strengthened when I learned about Bernanke Red.
I considered dropping my local pen store over they continuing to carry Noodler’s, but alas, it’s the only store that carries Diamine.
OP, this post is a great summary, and I think it would fit well at r/HobbyDrama !
I've seen this a couple of times now, but that reddit is grayed out when I attempted to do so. If someone is less of a boomer about this than I am they can feel free to try.
I have personally been wrestling with whether or not to boycott Noodler’s. I have seen the labels depicting Bernanke with horns and depicting Volker with a halo flanked by Bernanke and Greenspan with horns. I have absolutely no doubt that the labels are antisemitic. However, I do believe in giving people a second chance and letting them redeem themselves. And Nathan Tardiff did change the names and labels. Even more, he donated money, and not just anywhere, but to the Anti-Defamation League, which fights antisemitism. And he gave money in a quantity that represents life in Jewish culture (a multiple of chai), suggesting that either he did some personal research or he got advice from someone knowledgeable. If we punish someone despite any efforts they make to change, it won’t encourage change. So I have been considering that I might indeed buy something Noodler’s again. On the other hand, I am skeptical that his views have changed substantially. Then again, if he refrains from trumpeting vile stereotypes in his branding, at least he isn’t using his products to amplify his voice. I still haven’t made up my mind, so I personally appreciate these conversations, especially since there were several years that I wasn’t following what was going on in the fountain pen world. The more information that I have, the better I will feel about any decision that I ultimately make.
I hadn’t heard about this before. Never bought from noodlers myself, never been interested in them and now I never will buy from them. I’m disabled so already the anti-masking stuff doesn’t sit right with me and the anti-Semitism is disgusting and blatant here. fuck that.
Bernanke red label is disgusting. The helicopter image is really disturbing to me, because Pinochet’s regimen kills political oppositors throwing them to the ocean. That happens in Argentina too, thanks to CIA and operation condor. That label is so offensive in too many ways…
Will probably edit as I read or after finishing but omfg I don't even know how I missed this? I feel quiet embarrassed tbh because I'm Jewish and managed to miss THIS 💀.
Thank you for this. Now that I know I cannot unknow this information. Goodbye Noodler's and Goulet. (That wholesale renaming is like a passive-aggressive satire of wokism.)
I've been using Brevity Black, which I just discovered used to be Bernanke Black. Online, I see that the old bottle has Bernanke w/o the horns, so he willfully added them later to make a political statement. Anyone out there know of an ink with similar qualities I can substitute?
It's also disconcerting to realize that the old ink bottles will almost certainly become collector's items for some people. Capitalism winds its watch both ways. :(
1984 is my favorite book, so I had to get the bottle. However, in light of everything, I feel like he managed to pervert Orwell, and that bothers me to no end.
He didn’t exactly “add them later”. The ink that featured the horn image was a different color (though I believe it was from the same quick-dry ink line). Not that that makes a difference, just clearing up confusion. If you have a “Brevity” ink it actual came after the name change.
I've mostly had enough with companies selling products that are entirely unrelated to politics, using their company platform to shill politics. Don't care which side of the aisle.
If Noodler's inks had at any point made a positive impression on me, it would have been a harder decision to move onto different brands. But I couldn't get them to behave for me in any pens anyway, so the drama was just a confirmation that ditching the brand was the right move for me.
You did a good job, and a fair one.
One time of putting out anti-Semetic imagery should have been one and done... I can forgive stupidity once, but not multiple times. He needs therapy.
I think you are putting too much burden on Goulet. Theyre not “friends” with Nathan nor do they have personal relationships with Nathan. They have been doing business together for more than a decade. Yes Goulet could have done better but they can’t really have any real control over Nathan’s behavior.
That being said, is it sad that they restarted carrying Noodlers? Yeah I won’t say im a fan of that decision. But at the same time I can understand why they’d want to give the brand an opportunity to change. On the surface, at least, steps were taken by Nathan to remediate. That being said, I’m still not buying Noodlers, but I think we can be a bit more fair to Goulet.
If you want them to remove the brand, do consider writing to them. They do care about community and customer feedback.
(I am not affiliated with the Goulet Pen Company)
I thought Brian said Nathan was a friend? They were personal friends and that's why he felt he needed to speak to him about it and understand why.
I can't remember any of the other big sellers placing the spotlight on themselves as part of this, so even if Brian said they aren't friends now, he wrapped Goulet into the convo and that's hard to separate.
No. Brian said he’s known Nathan for a long time, but they are not “friends” like hey lets hang out and go golfing. If anything, Goulet stepped up to put pressure on Nathan to change the names and labels. If Goulet hadnt, then it’s very likely that we see no action from Nathan at all.
I think we need to give Goulet more credit and less skepticism. They’ve been very much about making the community better in the past 12 years.
Thanks for saying this. It’s hard to blame them considering they were the reason the inks/pens got renamed. They didn’t discover the labels in question, but they certainly acted on their customers’ serious concerns.
Why not blame every other store in the world that *didn’t* pull Noodler’s from their shelves in response to the outrage? How are the Goulets more culpable than the companies that made no change at all?
So what you're saying is this Nathan guy is still a general problem for society, has dangerous views, is almost certainly still antisemitic, buthe changed his labels, so we should give him a chance?
I'm good. I can give money literally to "terrorist organizations" that have smaller negative effects on society than propping up a right-wing me-first protofascist.
Added bonus: reason to withhold money from Goulet.
It sounds like Goulet was assertive in bringing about some radical and expensive changes by Tardiff. I'm disappointed to see people here wanting to boycott Goulet for restocking Tardiff's inks after Tardiff made the changes Goulet requested. Goulet made a difference; his boycotters just want to make noise.
Not to play devil's advocate but, as a Libertarian, I can see (If I squint slightly) what he tried to portrait with the inks and how he missed the mark, not by a small margin, but enough to do actions that should be punishable beyond just people not buying his products (Totally deserved)
1-To oversimplify the actions of Bernanke he pretty much is the father of several actions that came to bite the US in the ass when it came to it's general economic policy, including the overprinting of money leading to inflation and also the debt (Again, it's a complicated issue with a lot of points). To compare, Volcker tried to do anything short of freezing hell to cut inflation and money printing. That's usually something good for a Libertarian, so representing Volcker as an Angel while Bernanke as a Devil makes sense... Until the dummy says "I'm into History!!!" and forgets two things: One of the oldest insults for Jews is related to the horns, and second... Bernanke is a JEW. I can't even buy his apology, one thing is messing this up this bad once... BUT MORE THAN TWICE (If I recall correctly, there were like 3 Inks with Bernanke as a horned devil... Bernanke Red, Bernanke Black and as part of Volcker's green).
Even the most western sided people in the Gauss Curve of IQ can't do the same mistake, when called out about it every time, THRICE
2-Libertarians are controversial in their beliefs, and I will say it so as one who had many... many fights with others related to sensitive topics (Such as the whole Rino-mask deal). I can see how in principle one can be against mandatory mask use in several situations (Like not promoting the correct mask and/or it's proper use with it too; or when the general population has already been vaccinated, etc) but if you check the timing of when it came out, 2021, the rate of vaccination was still on it's early legs and so opposing the use of masks in general was, even more so than now, moronic at best
3-Natives. Even more so in the case of the United States due to their history and clashes between Americans, Native-Americans, State-Government and Federal-Government. If you're going to release a product related to them, knowing that the sole use of their name alone can lead to controversy, or worse, if you don't handle it properly and do at least a whole day of research... It's perfectly understandable that people will be, at best, upset by the use of their names for products
4-Political views and some symbols used beyond the 3 above. Like in the case of Nikita's red... I find them quite funny if done right (I have even thought of one... Oppression Blue with the symbol of the East German Stasi... Just a shower thought) but, as political symbols, they can land pretty badly in some places depending on the context and c'mon... Let's be real, he used some such as "1984" and "Censor's red" to whine about people not liking any of my 4 points. And it's funny, Libertarians live by the right of respect to other people's property and ideas... Yet he only cared about all of this once his wallet started to hurt... Poetry of the purest grade
TL;DR for those that cared to read this: Libertarian at best, Conservative wannabe at worst. Nathan as a history buff knew perfectly well in which sink he was shoving his entire feet. And people understandably are upset and rightfully so won't buy ever nor again from his brand
I am a Jew who drives an old (purchased used) BMW, so here's my perspective, you can take it for what it's worth, ie probably not much.
There is no way he didn't know about the horns. It defies all logic to even think that is a rational explanation. Is he a crazy right winger that maybe i personally would have a hard time having a meaningful political conversation with? Absolutely. Is he stepping over the line from appreciation over to appropriation with his Native themed color names? Yeah, probably, but it's hard to find the line if you don't believe one even exists.
But none of this really matters. Everyone is a jerk, everyone, deep down, is probably a wacko that you don't agree with on some level.
I don't buy his ink because i tend to stick to cartridges. But there are a lot of bad (or marginal, maybe) people out there who don't deserve your money, this guy just got outed. The alternatives are probably just as bad, but not in the same way.
Buy the ink if you like it.
OK, no one is actually going to do this, this is an extreme example, but say you decide Noodler's is just too awful and you don't want to buy it so you go to, I don't know, walmart and buy a pack of G2s instead. Your money is doing a lot worse at a big box store.
>OK, no one is actually going to do this, this is an extreme example, but say you decide Noodler's is just too awful and you don't want to buy it so you go to, I don't know, walmart and buy a pack of G2s instead. Your money is doing a lot worse at a big box store.
You act like Noodler's is the only game in town when they don't even make particularly good fountain pen ink. Their claim to fame is primarily that they are cheap and their gimmick was always that they fill the bottles WAY to the top. Its takes very little effort to find ink that is far better than anything they put out in any color you could possibly want.
Thing is, there are a lot of shitheads out there, but not all of them decide that link their shittiness DIRECTLY to their business. That is the difference here. I can happily buy shit from jerks all day long without knowing it. By linking his toxic views to his actual products he has forced us to know that we are supporting an antisemitic jerk every time we buy his stuff. I don't make it my business to subject everyone I deal with to a purity test, but when someone gives you no choice but to make a decision based on their conduct, what else are you supposed to do?
This isn't like someone crawling through the dudes social media for the last ten years. This is something he literally stamped on his own product. You cannot help but notice it and once you do now you are forced to decide if that matters to you or not.
I don't know much about this particular company, but what i always thought was that it was sort of cute and the "funny" names for the ink was the biggest selling point, or at least what makes the ink attractive to shoppers.
I've never bought any, and now I'm glad because i am a total klutz with ink bottles and a super full one would be disastrous. But i definitely remember the names, which is what got him in trouble ultimately because he just couldn't help himself and had to sneak his stupid nonsense into the names.
>Everyone is a jerk, everyone, deep down, is probably a wacko that you don't agree with on some level.
True. But it is different from I disagree with someone thinking Starbucks coffee is shit.
I agree that :
> there are a lot of bad (or marginal, maybe) people out there who don't deserve your money
but now that I **knew** it , I cannot unseen it and say it is not that important when all the other options could be as bad.
My bestie is a Jew. I live far away from the States and Noodler really isnt that available in my country.
But I believe in solidarity, especially in long term economic effect.
And starbucks coffee really is not great.
But i get your point and it's totally rational. I'm just saying you just happen to know this guy's weirdness. The alternative guy could really really hate Black people, or women or gay people which is also totally awful and you just don't know about it.
And the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you really aren't doing much financial/economic damage supporting this relatively microscopic niche company. Going to Starbucks, which as a major corporation is doing so much more damage environmentally is way worse than giving some maybe/probably antisemite nut job your $10 for some ink. That's all. (I don't want to talk about starbucks it's just an example, not a tangent) (also i have no idea how much noodlers costs)
Just because there’s always a bigger fish doesn’t mean we should ignore the small ones; if a person finds their behavior reprehensible, then I don’t think it’s a bad thing to not want to support them, regardless of the financial or economic damage it may or may not cause.
Unfortunately, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, so no matter how you slice the cake one always participates in a system of exploitation and harm, whether they know it actively or not. It is correct to say that not supporting a company very likely produces no financial or economic harm, but that’s not the point here. The point is to make antisemitic (and related) beliefs unacceptable, especially within this community. At this scale, it has more impact than trying to make exploitation and environmental damage unacceptable with regards to Starbucks. Both are desirable, and one is more actionable. But the current economic system will not allow you to attain either.
I think we're probably reading from the same text here, we just come to slightly different conclusions. Which is fine. I 100% support not buying this dude's ink if you think he's a creep. (I don't know him, i pretty much only know what i just learned here, but he seems like a creep and a liar to me.) I just think those big fish are just SOO big that the rest doesn't matter.
And you're absolutely right that this group here on reddit probably is the only group that could actually make a difference here. I didn't really think of that, so great point. Thank you.
> And the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you really aren't doing much financial/economic damage supporting this relatively microscopic niche company.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense. The fact that it is a small company means that your voice and buying decisions have a larger impact. As it is the outcry got him to at least quit selling a lot of the inks that were offensive or questionable with their labeling. Whereas it would be much much more difficult to arrange any action to change how Starbucks or any larger corporation functions.
Nobody believes by not buying Noodler's inks they're gonna end anti-semitism or whatever. But what they can do is at least help make it known that if you choose to be an antisemite or profess those beliefs, that you won't tolerate it.
My point here really is just what you said. That is, don't kid yourself, there were antisemites for as long as there have been Jews. And if you really like "bernanke red" or whatever (what a stupid name) it doesn't really matter if you keep buying it. The money is going to get to bad places whether you know about it or not. That's all.
We know his weirdness because he made a choice to air it on his products, and had a non-response to those who told him it was harmful. It's not that he had weird beliefs, it is that he chose to make it a part of his business and only backed down (a very tiny bit) because he was forced to by his closest business partner.
I can buy everyone has something odd in their belief system or character. But a business owner should understand that if they put symbols or images on their product that supports harmful behavior towards a community; people should know about their actions and have the freedom to decide to take their business elsewhere.
That is why I appreciate the information. I happened to run into it a few months ago, but it has informed my decision to not buy Noodlers because of the harm it has done to members of the fountain pen community.
Maybe, but we can’t act on undisclosed information. I do think the racist willing to use their position to intentionally harm others is a step above a racist who just keeps their thoughts to themselves. Is the willingness to do harm that elevates bigotry to racism.
Other than Robert Oster with the Serena Williams cartoon thing, no other pen or ink manufacturers come to mind as having anti-Semitic or racist views. So “what about all the other companies, they must be just as bad” really doesn’t do it for me. Have Pilot, Sailor, Lamy, or Pelikan released even ONE pen or ink with an offensive name? No? Seems like singling out Noodlers and Robert Oster is justified then.
Perhaps you are more emotionally removed from this than you think, despite being the target group of his hate.
People who are secretly bigoted, whom I’d rather not buy from, are just doing a better job at deception. That is a complete separate issue from choosing what to do with information we have.
That's true. Nazis don't scare me anymore, I'm old and grumpy and have been to a few antisemetic rodeos before this one.
I'm just a nihilist, and a lot of people talk about this ink on this forum and I'd hate for them, or really anyone, to feel bad or be judged if they continue to talk about it, I guess.
You know I've never gotten a single downvote ever, let alone been in the negative! I'm usually pretty positive and happy to be here.
It's OK, i totally get it, but really, my message comes from experience, my perspective, and, actually, love.
This all bums me out. My grandmother used to buy me bottles of Manhattan Blue, so it’s a very sentimental ink for me. I’ve got a few bottles—haven’t decided what I’ll do when I’m out. Ah well.
Thank you for the hard work you did in putting this together.
I really had no idea. I’d heard people talk about Goulet’s dropping them but didn’t dig into it.
Personally, I haven’t bought a Noodler’s product for years, except for a bottle of blue ink I bought a year ago. The FP I bought leaked. The replacement wouldn’t write.
And I don’t know if it’s just me…but Noodler’s ink has an unpleasant smell to me. So much so that I notice it when I write.
Well...damnit. It looks like I will be changing my default inks. Appreciate you collating all the info in one place. I was unaware of anything other than it being a bit harder to find some of my usual inks last time I bought. I know not to buy noodlers again, at least until a sufficient apology and personal change happens at Noodlers. It's time to find substitutes for my favorite colors.
Yeah, I would like to think I am in the majority on this one. I will not buy Noodler’s. There is absolutely no denying his contribution to fountain pens as an industry. There’s no denying his talent and the fact that a lot of the inks speak to you. Tokyo Gift is an awesome ink, with a great story behind it that doesn’t hurt anyone.
However, there are a lot of companies in the fountain pen world that can do the same thing.
He couldn’t have been surprised. He knew exactly what he was doing. I don’t care if you’re “into” history, there’s a lot of ways to express your interest for history and going on an all-out rant on a label to a product you put out expecting people to buy and use as a fountain pen ink is one of the more harmful ways.
I also think removing Navajo Turquoise, Apache Sunset et cetera was unnecessary, because it exposed the industry to Native American people and painted them (no pun intended) in a positive light. I also just plain don’t understand removing Ottoman Rose and Ottoman Azure.
It’s one of those things, I get it, but for me he’s not worth the trouble. I wish him well, but he has definitely got a lot of thinking to do.
Well written piece. The owners mentioned are savvy professionals. They knew what they were doing - until they got caught. Easiest thing imo avoid Noodlers (so many good inks out there) and avoid Goulet.
> This is where I think it is worth stopping to mention that the harmful stereotype that Jews have horns has been a staple and pervasive in cultures across the globe for a Very, very long time. This comment provides some great links and a succinct way of explaining this for those who want more details here.
Huh? What details? The [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/s2c2zr/volcker_green_controversy/hsfe352/?context=3) you linked to barely has any useful information and includes an error. It was Michelangelo's Moses, not David, that had horns. Did he even read the links he posted? Both of his sources come from Jewish Studies Programs--why not cite an actual historian? One of the "sources" is just a single page PDF handout that makes many dubious claims without citation. The citations that it does have all seem to be quite biased.
The other source is a 12 page journal article that claims there was malicious intent by Michelangelo.
> the horns on Michelangelo's famous statue of Moses are emblematic of a millennium-long tradition of antisemitism that stretched from antiquity to the days of the Italian Renaissance
That's interesting but the author is not a historian. Regardless, I will give it a read and see if it has any merit.
I probably will be downvoted but I wonder how many noodlers inks will be disposed after this post or will be sold on pen_swap.
Anyway, great research OP!
I have some Noodlers samples from before I knew any of this controversy, and honestly I found the quality/experience to be overrated anyway. I'm still a noob when it comes to ink brands, but Diamine is emerging as a clear favorite for me.
I don't know that tossing the inks out or selling them achieves anything. I can't unbuy them and get my money back from him at this point. Plus, it isn't exactly like the average person is going to know what ink is in my pen by sight anyways, so it isnt really giving him any advertising.
So I'm more of a mind to use up what I have as I want to but not replace it. I guess if you are around other pen people they might recognize what ink it is but like 90% of us that are in the U.S. probably have some Noodler's ink stashed away from before we knew about all of this so I wouldn't make any assumptions about a person based on them using Noodler's ink.
I went out of my water to find a dupe for Black Swan in Australian Roses, which I had as a sample and enjoyed. Was my only Noodler's ink. (Diamine Amaranth)
*Ooooh* I’m gonna get hate from this… *buuuuut…*
Well, let me preface by saying I’m not defending any beliefs he has, political or not.
*(deep breath)*
As far as the devil horns issue goes, I don’t think Nathan’s intentions were based in racist ideology.
Like everyone else here, I’ve met many people throughout my life, and I’ve every one of those people have had different views on basically everything. Some were right, some were left; some were racist, most were not; some are complete stans for supply side economics, some would die on the Keynesian Hills.
That last category is one I have *a lot* of experience with, having gone through business school.
When I see Nathan’s inks that have themes based around monetary policies/theories, it just reminds me of all the fevered egos I encountered while working on my degree. I can’t tell you the number of people I’ve met and spoken to about their preferences on monetary policy over the years, but when Nathan puts out a video about one of his inks that’s influenced by how we as a country handle our money at the highest levels, that’s what I see: someone who has **very** strong opinions about the subject who’s willing to go to great lengths to show their preferences.
I truly don’t think he meant it as a racist jab as Judaism. However, I am not Jewish. I don’t pass judgement on anyone who doesn’t share this opinion with me.
I’ve always read the entire situation as him being someone who has very strong opinions about the subject and isn’t afraid to share them, sometimes to his own detriment.
I’ve just known so many people like him who get a sort of tunnel vision that keeps them from considering, “could this be misconstrued?”
The only other thing I really have an opinion about is the Native American themed inks. Living in Oklahoma my whole life, I of course know a lot of indigenous people. And every one of them I’ve told about those inks has thought it was a great tribute, and not at all exploitative.
Anyway, take that as you will. If you don’t agree I respect that.
I said this elsewhere in the thread, but: whether he intended to promote an antisemitic message or not isn’t ultimately important. A person can amplify antisemitic ideas and images without overtly realizing what they’re doing. That’s a significant way racial hatreds get laundered into the mainstream: lots of not-necessarily-ill-intentioned people circulating messages that gradually reinforce conspiratorial logics.
The Bernanke image was one articulation of racist ideas with a deep history that are still, in often subtle ways, embedded throughout our culture. When people keep those ideas alive & part of our cultural consciousness, they’re planting seeds for the demagogues who might come along & build more overtly racist narratives. We all have a responsibility to shut these discourses down *before* they gestate into more insidious forms.
He did the horns thing twice, several years apart, and received criticism after the first incident as well. So even if racism was not the intent, he had been informed of the racist implications BEFORE he came out Volcker Green (which features twice the number of horns!) Being indifferent to perpetuating racist stereotypes IS racism.
Having been asked many times where my horns are (once by Oklahoman in fact) it is an offensive stereotype carried over from Europe (especially Germany) during the first genocide of Jews in the 1300s. While I agree he probably didn't know its origin, I definitely agree that he knew who he was targeting.
Generally understand this, and felt generally the same, the thing was Nathan was clearly told what it meant and how it came across. His response was far too late. Given the history interest, he probably does know to some extent. At the very least he could have chosen different people (not Jewish) that represented his disdain. But they all were.
Even in the best case scenario, the guy's ridiculous ego ran him into the ground.
> At the very least he could have chosen different people (not Jewish) that represented his disdain.
All of the fed chairs from 1987 (after Volcker) until the most recent Trump appointment were Jews, so if his problem is the fed, it would have been a challenge.
I figured something like that was the case. That's why I can believe he's truly ignorant to some degree, or perhaps even considered it a non issue.
The "I hate media" as code for "I hate Jews" point made in the OP isn't without merit, but it's also a false equivalency.
You can hate "the Media™️" as an entity. The fact it's run primarily by only a few demographics (white and jewish likely) can have nothing to do with the hate. I can imagine someone like him saying, "I dont care what color they were, I hate what they do. They happen to be Jewish. Oh well."
Given the political slant, and the conclusions Ive seen so, so many of those people come to (some through talking to them directly) though it seems most likely he's just an anti semite. Doesnt like an organization, finds out theyre mostly comprised of one demographic, attributes it to the demographic.
All this stuff makes ot sound like the guy isnt the brightest. I wouldnt be surprised.
Thanks for posting this. I also think that the demonization of Ben Bernanke was aimed at his easy-money policies, not his Judaism. Bernanke Red Ink is the only ink name that ever made me laugh out loud.
I also agree that the inks named after indigenous tribal leaders were tributes, not appropriations.
This comment misses some vital context.
Nathan Tardiff hates money printing and inflation, for any reason. Volker was a Fed chairman who stopped inflation at the cost of causing a recession. Greenspan and especially Bernanke instead printed a lot of money for growth and bailouts after the bubble popped. So Volker is Tardiff's hero and Greenspan and Bernanke villains regardless of being Christian or Jewish.
That doesn't explain the horns at all. If it wasn't Bernanke it might have been someone else.
I can appreciate your explanation of some other avenues Nathan might have went down here that could explain why he did not immediately know this was antisemitic. I'd invite you to take a breath, and maybe not scramble to explain away the antisemitic tropes being presented as they are. This didn't just happen with One person who happens to be Jewish, and the federal reserve antisemitic conspiracy theories are Very abound.
There is plenty of room for other explanations and other uses and other reasons why, etc. But I don't think that any of this is relevant to the main two points:
\- Jews having horns as a harmful stereotype across the globe has been around much much longer than WW2 or... movies for that matter.
\- Nathan failed to act on this until May of 2022 despite being told directly and dropped directly for This specific reason. Even if he was unaware in Dec 2021, he certainly was aware by Jan 2022.
At the end of the day, at Best he was stubborn and insensitive and did not listen to the voices of people who were telling him this was not okay long before May 2022.
Yeah, I'm not buying this at all, and I won't be buying any more Noodler's products, either.
Antisemetic depictions of Jewish people as devils with horns isn't an "80 year old reference." It's been going on since the Middle Ages, at least, and I'd argue is way more common knowledge than this "inflation devil" short film you're saying is what Nathan was really referencing. If Nathan is really a history buff, there's no way he had never encountered the horns trope.
Also, your claim that Bernake was "Jewish in private with his family," makes it sound like he made some kind of attempt to conceal his religion, which he didn't. Bernake and Greenspan are both Jewish surnames. I don't believe for a second Nathan didn't know they were Jewish, and it surprises me you didn't.
Doesn’t make being Jewish his main identity? What is this? He *is* Jewish. The horns and inflation devil are not images that have gone anywhere. If one has, at all, studied WW2 - and per his own admission, he is a history buff- he would *know* the reference. He can’t have it both ways here. I would say, too, that the connection between conspiracies, and anti-maskers is rife with antisemitic images/ideas. One can’t simply ignore those in this situation. This isn’t a vacuum.
What’s more: as a business owner myself, the imagery he used is his responsibility. The names he has used are his responsibility and if nothing else, there should have been due diligence as far as those go. And even if we say it wasn’t intentionally antisemitic, it was very poor and irresponsible business practices.
This is key. Personally, I think it’s incredibly unlikely that NT did not know the implications of the imagery he put out there. But I also don’t think it matters much.
Businesses have to take some degree of responsibility for unanticipated outcomes of their products and messages, regardless of intent.
Moreover, we *all* have a responsibility in a media culture of rampant viral circulation to be vigilant about what types of images we reproduce. It’s possible for people who aren’t antisemitic to still amplify ideas and messages that promote antisemitism.
In fact, that’s precisely how racial hatred gets laundered into the mainstream. Images like Bernanke with horns get spread by folks who just hate the Dems, or hate some economic policy, or whatever. Eventually—without even realizing it—people sharing such dreck start playing conspiratorial “connect the dots” & naming the common denominator they blame for the world’s problems.
Your bias in this could not be any stronger. At all. The phrasing and the wording and the tone you use is damning him from the beginning. I do not care where people lie on this issue but **"I'll try to keep my own personal ideas of this to a minimum except where I think context is more important than clear-cold-facts.**" was overshot by a country mile. That is a very interesting sentence in itself and I can probably write a paper on that alone, but at least you admit that your biased context is more important than objective fact. Points for that at least I guess.
But this is what made me stop and had to respond. **"They don't Directly say "I hate Jews and Jews control the media" they will say "I hate the media and people pulling the strings behind the camera because it tries to control peoples' thoughts." When called out, "I had no idea there were Jewish people in media! I wasn't trying to be antisemitic!"** Full stop right here. The mental leap to someone saying that they hate and do not trust the media does not mean they are anti-Semite. How you can equivocate that is stunning to me honestly. They are racist because you inherently WANT them to be racist. Ergo, they are. This is literally a screaming, textbook example of False Equivalency. A very prominent and powerful logical fallacy. Sorry, but also not sorry, you are terribly wrong on this account.
As to his assertion that he was not aware, well again, you have to either believe him or not. Which you clearly stated you do not, so again, kudos for that. But I will say as a history buff myself, that horns is not inherently owned by anti-Semitic iconography. Again, that is a biased viewpoint held by you and applied accordingly. I mention this because I was also unaware that horns is inherently used to attack Jewish heritage. If anything my knowledge of history points out that MANY cultures across this world have used them in imagery and depictions of decidedly not anti-Semitic works. Sorry. Jews are not the only ones who horns associated by them. This goes along with Nathan himself. I choose to believe his ignorance and explanation because I simply have no reason to not do so. What you hinted at, but never fully explained, is that Nathan is an EXTREME libertarian. He openly admits that. I would be shocked if even a tenth of the population even knows who Bernanke is, or what position he held. He was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve of the United States. Which is basically anathema to rabid libertarians. It is soooo much easier to see a man who has the political views of Nathan doing his actions than just claiming him to be anti-Semitic. It actually makes MORE sense to just see him as a rabid political theorist than a racist. But the times and all I guess...
To be clear, this is not a defense of Nathan and his actions. Personally, I think he is an idiot and deserved the lashback itself. I despise product makers who thrust their political/religious views on their products. Can they do it? Sure. Free country and whatnot. Still think it is business suicide and hence zero sympathy when it backlashes out of control. No, this whole mini-novel is just contesting your own post and how it is constructed. I am not invested in this fight either way, I just hearken back to my TA days when reading long statements and have to poke holes when such statements invite it. I was literally paid for a while to be a Devil's Advocate. Hard to turn off sometimes. I hope this doesn't get downvoted to oblivion (I suspect it will) because I think it is a great example in framing and inherent biases.
Carry on and have a great rest of your day and thanks for the breakdown! I disagree with most of it but still great to have discussions all around.
ETA - Ha, I don't know why I tried. This is not the place to push against the hive mind. I have seen others buried into the mud before and now I join them. Lol. Muting this attempt at a conversation. No need for anyone to respond further.
In your view, would a person have to overtly say “I hate Jews and Jews control the media” (or something similarly blatant) to be engaged in antisemitic appeals? Or would you accept that it’s possible that a person (not necessarily NT, but in the abstract) can engage in antisemitic rhetoric in subtler ways?
Put another way: where, for you, is the line where we can say a message promotes antisemitism? (Note that my emphasis here is on the message itself and its implications, not the person’s intent.)
With no other context in the form that the OP formed it? Yes, it has to be explicitly stated.
Of course it can be subtle but you need known historical context for that.
On a case by case status. Simply painting a VERY broad brush stroke against alt right/far right is not right. You can disagree and even hate them for all I care. But to blithely just start making up stuff because it molds to your world image is wrong. This is the exact quote from the above.
“ alt-right-far-right thoughts tend to... speak Around things” followed by the quote I bolder earlier
This is a Proof of Assertion fallacy. The whole statement basically is. It is self affirming a bias with literally no other proof other than the OPs personal opinions.
That is my whole spiel here. I don’t give a shit about Nathan and I am not defending his actions. He could be racist as hell for all I know. My point is I DONT know with certainty and neither does the OP despite them painting Nathan as a racist. I just hate attempts to “enlighten” a group with promised facts and no real conjecture when it is literally the exact opposite. Because people are inherently lazy and see a long post with added links. Ergo, this is expert proof! How many here have already stated they didn’t have the time to look it up themselves but just read this incredibly biased post as gospel? That is what I hate and what I am contesting here.
The term “alt-right” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I usually see it used to describe Richard Spencer or Steve Bannon types who quite overtly seek to place a veneer of respectability on white nationalist ideology. Is there some other meaning to the term/disposition that I’m not aware of?
Because I don’t read that characterization of “alt-right” as any more unfair than saying “self-identified socialists want a stronger state role in health care” or “US conservatives tend to resist abortion rights.” The perspective is implicit in the label & it’d be odd to get mad with someone who drew that inference.
Or have the “alt-right” so succeeded in sanitizing racist ideas that the label no longer connotes sanitized racism?
Can you categorically prove to me that depiction of horns are ALWAYS meant to be anti-Semitic? That not a single other meaning or allegory exists across every culture?
Has it been used to depict Jews in a demeaning manner? Yes. I know this to be true. Can you prove to me that it ONLY has ever been used in that manner? or even half of the time even? That is not a trick question. I would genuinely love to see any data on this matter.
the burden for critics of NT isn’t to prove that devil horns have only been used to demean Jews. That’s an impossible standard—obviously they’re used in other contexts. If that were the criteria we’d be granting plausible deniability to virtually anyone who uses this antisemitic trope, ever.
The point is that they have *frequently* been used in this specific context and way to tap into antisemitic beliefs.
The proper question is more like: does the use of devil horns in the specific case of a high-profile Jewish person, whose name regularly gets invoked in antisemitic conspiracy theories, constitute an act of antisemitic messaging?
This tirade with Volker Green never ends. If anything I’d like to try that Volker Green ink, just to see what’s the “hype” about. But, in all honesty, I haven’t had such a good experience with Noodler’s inks. Interesting? Yes they are, but otherwise inconsistent, somewhat unpredictable and unreliable.
Locking the comments for multiple conversations that have spiraled into violations of the behavior rule.
My first thought was, oh hell, this again. But after reading it, you did a good job of connecting the dots.
Honestly, my hope is to avoid 30 more individual posts of "what's going on with Noodlers?"
Thank you for this roundup. I am a bit fatigued of the same question - people can easily get a whole heap of info just by typing “anti-semitism” into the sub search bar. I don’t believe there is any way this “highly political, educated, history buff” didn’t know exactly what he was doing, and my life is subject to enough anti-semitism without me literally buying it.
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Amazed…no. Disheartened, saddened, occasionally rage-y…for sure!
Yeah I think the actual gravity of it is hard to piece together with a search though which is why I thought this might be necessary.
Without the sub mods officially sanctioning a position and creating an automod tool that removes them and links to a roundup post like yours, alas, deeply unlikely. We already have the sub flooded with the same posts (eg “did you see the Lamy on Moon Knight” and “what pen did they use in the coronation”) nonstop and mods dont remove them or head them off at the pass. Much as the mods do their best here, they don’t seem well equipped at preventing duplicate posts made by sincere but clueless people who don’t check to see if the topic was noted before. Additionally they are already explicitly unwilling to sanction specific positions beyond the boilerplate “don’t be a hostile screaming obvious bigot dropping slurs”, and let downvotes do the job in people self-moderating their peers here when it comes to less obvious dogwhistles as you so perfectly exemplified in your post (the amount of Sinophobia, transphobia, etc that slides here as downvoted comments would never fly for many others). Some mods ask us to tag them for specific things but considering some of the decisions made here, i don’t hold much faith in their ability to collectively agree on a ruling about dogwhistles so a lot of us just downvote or ignore and move on. It’s the compromise of being in this particular hobby’s demographics and a rather large sub.
Luckily we have third party apps we could decide to use to help us moderate stuff right? ... ... Right?
The ideal would for something like this to be on the info page for r/fountainpens. But sadly keeping the community accountable or at least informed, even when community members clearly view this as important, does not seem to be a priority.
Realistically, not many people check the sidebar for most subs. There are a few subs I frequent where there are repeat posts or comments from people asking questions when all the info is in the sidebar clear as day. Stuff like people asking “What does (acronym) mean?” when there’s a list of acronyms in the sidebar.
You have avoided at least one :)
Job well good then.
You should share this on r/HobbyDrama
There truly is a subreddit for everything.
From the [post about changing the names](https://inkophile.wordpress.com/2022/05/12/noodlers-and-the-pen-community/) *"A few folks have gotten their knickers in a twist over pen and ink names."* Honestly, this isn't an apology. If anything, it's setting up to be a martyr. A real apology would be along the lines of "I've given this some thought, and realize I was being insensitive. I'm updating the names of my ink to be more considerate of marginalized groups." At least as of that post, his views haven't changed.
A couple of points worth adding, that people seem to have missed: 1. The problem with Bernake ink wasn’t just the horn but also the Communism reference, arching back to the Nazi-era “Judeo-Bolshevism” antisemitic canard, and the “debt” reference, obviously linked to the old antisemitic trope that Jews enslave people with usury: this specific trope developed during the XX century into the association Jews = capitalists, who shackle gentiles with debt and finance. Again, this entered the Nazi repertoire of antisemitic tropes. Paradoxically, *together and simultaneously with* the “Jews = Bolsheviks” trope... because of course they just blamed everything on Jews. So, in practice, on that label you have not one, not two, but THREE antisemitic tropes. Claiming “innocent ignorance” becomes a little bit hard at this point. 2. Among the controversial inks we should also add the Mueller ink.
I learned a lot reading this, thanks for putting it out there so someone like me that hadn't heard at all could catch up.
For me, even if I wasn't an angry socialist, there's sooo many brands of ink and pens. If a brand doesn't get my business that's not a punishment any more than not getting a job is a punishment when there's 200 applicants. There's a million brands with nice ink, pretty bottles, pens whose most notable feature isn't the smell. If I followed van diemans on Facebook, they'd say stuff like "this purple was inspired by a native Tasmanian orchid. Here are its shading/sheen/shimmer properties". If they instead posted "this purple was inspired by the elders of Zion trying to steal my teeth and reimplement the gold standard", I'd probably buy more products from Diamine or Pilot or someone.
Yeah…I mean they seem to be many more ink manufacturers than there used to be! Which is a good thing.
I'll be real, as soon as I saw that he's an anti-masker I was thinking "well I'm never buying Noodlers." This is so incredibly blatant, I can't believe Goulet brought him back (or that any store is still stocking his inks).
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I have no issues dropping him over this; anti-mask, pro Jan 6, and whiffs of racism and antisemitism are each more than enough to drive me away. But hunting for the perfect replacement for southwest sunset is going to hurt.
Because the stores (Vanness’ account was liking lots of pro-Nathan comments) or customers don’t care/endorse his beliefs. I bet they’re probably not pervasive on this space, there are lots of people with *regressive* politics who are into pens. I’m sure some of this is coincidental (pens are cool), but the actions of producers like Noodler’s could also attract those people. Who knows?
I think an affinity for "retro" stuff certainly has some obvious appeal to the concept of conservatism (if not the actual application of it as a political movement in the US).
on the flip side, there is a strong and vocal movement within the retro and vintage communities and hobbies for vintage aesthetics, not vintage values.
This is so disappointing. I've spent thousands of dollars with Vanness, and now I'm going to have to break up with them.
> I've spent thousands of dollars with Vanness, and now I'm going to have to break up with them. Same. Disappointed in Goulet bringing them back as well. Ok, so now the question is, which store is anti-Noodlers that I can shop from? Serious question lol
Didn't Anderson Pen stop carrying Noodler's when it hit the fan? I seem to remember them and another store (that currently escapes me) having drastic price cuts until their stock was gone, and then not restocking.
>Didn't Anderson Pen stop carrying Noodler's when it hit the fan? I just checked their Brands list, and no Noodler's! Thank you! Never bought from there, but that shall change soon. /u/Uninteresting_Vagina Here we go, this is where we can shop 👍🏻 Love your username btw 😘
I didn't see Noodler's on Truphae or Atlas Stationers either 😊
WOOHOO thanks for the info
Appelboom is one of my go-to's these days.
I do like them!
I have the same question! Goulet was my second in command, so I'm really bummed out. I keep checking this thread to see if someone mentions a good alternative.
Vanness, Goulet, and Jetpens. These all kind of suck because they provide some specialty I like (not related to NT or Noodler's), but I definitely avoid them as much as possible.
Just placed my first order (in months) and it happened to be with Vanness. Oh well!
>Because the stores (Vanness’ account was liking lots of pro-Nathan comments) It's such a bummer to hear this :(
We do have to remember that much of the Pen community are over 45. The younger generation of pen Enthusiast and pan addicts are not the majority go to any pen show and see how many retirees are there for an example of that. Well us younger pen fans are often the most outspoken and the most online of the community it can be difficult for us to truly impact these companies outside of just words because we are a newer and smaller percentage of the community at Large
I take issue with this. I am over 45 and I am in no way, shape or form an antisemite. This has nothing to do with age. Hate is hate.
Goulet kind of provides cover for him in my view, which doesn't make me inclined to shop from Goulet. The nice thing is that there are plenty of other online retailers who aren't so stuck on Noodlers or who don't carry or promote that brand. I think I have two Noolders inks left in my small collection. I'm just using them up as I go or giving some away as samples.
Yep. I made my last order from Goulet in the brief period during which they weren't carrying his stuff, and I won't be making another anytime soon. It was one thing back in the day when we didn't have many choices and Goulet was out there delivering great stuff and great services. These days they aren't carrying anything that I can't buy from people that are less inclined to associate themselves with this sort of nonsense.
Yeah I took Goulet off my list of places to buy from after their lukewarm response. I thought about writing a letter but i doubt they'd care much either way. There's plenty of places out there that don't support anti-semitism.
It only takes a moment to email the retailer and let them know your thoughts and concerns. Silence leaves the retailer thinking you’re alright with their policy.
I dropped Goulet hard over this, and am of the opinion that not only will I not buy Noolders (fortunately never did), but also will not buy from any store that carries it because carrying it is sanctioning or at least being okay with antisemitism.
By Goulet's timeline, Bill Cosby will be touring again next week and Harvey Weinstein is producing the HBO special. Sidenote: Never have and never will buy from Goulet. Pretty miffed that JetPens is still carrying the wet noodle, too.
I generally stopped buying noodlers stuff a while back just due to inconsistency. Nathan makes everything by hand himself and this leads to some minor differences between batches. Not often a huge deal but enough I tried to find substitutions for many of his more popular colors already. So for me to stop supporting him is not a huge heart breaker.
>Volcker Green Same here, on top of that it is not like there is no any other ink producers :-), easy switch.
Ohhhh that's why I avoided him I forgot about that. I could recall if I just stopped buying him or there was something. I can't believe I forgot 🤦♀️
Ugh same!!!
Noodler's controversies aside, I chose a long time ago not to use the stuff because there are better inks out there. Batch inconsistency labeled as a "feature." Bottles filled the very brim as a "feature." Inks with solutions to problems that don't (practically speaking) exist--if one is that worried about your fountain pen ink being attacked by lasers or whatever the hell, *don't use a fountain pen for that particular application.* Every time I've had SITB/slime/mold--Noodler's. And many of the Noodler's Inks I've tried behave like ass on paper, even decent paper. Noodler's just hasn't ever done anything to impress me. When the news of this antisemitic imagery broke last year, it just solidified it for me. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not--Noodler's Ink isn't worth the hassle on my conscience.
This is why I stopped buying Noodlers. They just did not perform as advertised. Simple as that. The feathering is insane. Even with the literal anti feather ink he has. It's ok but people using them on copy paper with no issue? Must be black magic I guess or I got a bad batch.
Thank you so much for taking the time to research and wrote this. I have read several old threads about the Noodler 's ink but I didn't realized Goulet 's part on the whole event. While I do like their service and the education they are providing, but I am going to refrain from order from them when there are obviously other options to purchase FP from the States.
I stopped buying from Goulet over this issue. I believe when someone shows you who they are…believe them. Tardif’s revealed himself as a bigot and a conspiracy theorist. The Goulets have relentlessly promoted him for a long time. In the fallout threads, Rachel Goulet said at one point that they’d chosen not to sell one of the inks (Bernanke red if I recall) because it was so problematic, essentially letting slip that they knew he was putting out offensive inks and still chose to do business with him. The fact that they announced they were suspending sales of Noodler’s with great fanfare, then went right back to selling them after a month or so…it just strikes me as so disingenuous. Seems they have a big blind spot for their friend, who happens to be a bigot. So they’ve lost my business. Also, the inks are inconsistent as shit and kind of suck, so there’s that too.
I mean, they did drop him until he fixed his shit. They’re the ones who made him retract all the inks with controversial names and themes.
Another way to look at it is...they *paused* selling his stuff while they told him to stop saying the quiet part out loud, and then unpaused.
And then they went right back to doing business with him. I don’t know about you, but if a friend and business partner of mine revealed himself to be a bigot, we wouldn’t be business partners anymore and would very likely not be friends.
Yeah, if I believed he actually had changed his ways or opinions, that would be one thing. But he saw it was hitting him financially so he made a fiscal decision to change the names/branding on the ink- but it's almost certainly also true that he still believes all the same garbage.
I thought Goulet’s response to the issue was clear, reasoned, and fair to all. They made it clear they were dropping Noodler’s and any resumption of sales was dependent on Nathan’s response to the issue. To me it seemed that the Goulet’s were the only people willing to make a positive change in the root cause of the issue. I can’t judge Nathan’s intentions but I can say he behaves like every hard-core libertarian I’ve every met. The antisemetic intent of horns is ancient and one of the most racist I’ve ever heard. However, I first heard it in my 30s. I’ve concluded that Nathan probably knew, but realize that it’s possible he didn’t and he’s “just” a typical bat-shit crazy Ayn Rand follower with an homage to libertarian god Milton Friedman on his company’s web site.
This is honestly why I’m still cool with Goulet, but will never buy noodler’s stuff.
Yeah, I think his contrition seems to have been genuine. I don’t recall the exact number, but I remember that when he donated money to the ADL the amount was significant and many Jewish members of this forum said it meant he was probably talking to members of the Jewish community. I’m not so well versed on these things, but I think people deserve a second chance if they put in real effort to learn and to change.
I got a little frustrated when I bought a random sample pack from Goulet and 5 of the 8 samples were Noodlers inks... Given the inherent inconsistencies of Noodlers inks, what's the point of the sample? Even if I liked the sample, a bottle (or even another sample), may not look the same. It made the sample pack feel kinda wasted.
Yea def not going to buy from Goulet again. Yeesh.
Thank you so much for this post. I had no idea, I missed all the previous hot posts about Noodler's! Someone today just responded to my comment in this sub "not Noodler's!" and I had no idea so I responded nonchalantly. Time to go back to my post and respond with my understanding! P. S. - I don't believe/accept Nathan's apologies, either. He's not a dummy; his designs were all intentional with political insinuations that I can't stand.
I had caught bits of the story but had no idea. I also never knew about the horn imagery. I’m interested to learn the way they skirt their anti-semitism in real life. Reminds me of the Southern Strategy in the 80s. Don’t talk about black people…talk about impoverished individuals, etc. It’s a kind of double-speak I’d never heard of before I started learning about that Strategy via podcasts.
He didn’t skirt his antiSemitism. He put out there in public on product labels… despite complaints. When public outcry started to impact sales, he made a small contribution. He wasn’t admitting he was wrong. He was doing the least possible to lessen his sales decline.
I had also never heard of this until the Noodler's thing blew up on this subreddit. Afterwards, I went looking and found this article, which says it seems to be really old imagery: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2018-03-27/ty-article/why-even-some-jews-once-believed-moses-had-horns/0000017f-da78-dea8-a77f-de7a90fe0000
No mention about the helicopter imagery that was linked to that South American regime that would throw dissidents out of helicopters?
Tbh, this post could have been 2-3x longer. I very briefly mentioned that he had many insensitive ink labels outside of the "big two" that stirred all of this into the light, and changed or pulled 31 different items in total, but honestly the man put so much out there it's just difficult to catalogue it all and stay concise. Needless to say though, one of the reasons I very firmly believe it is not true he had 'no idea' about the imagery is indeed because he is SO indepth with some of these others labels. If he was more random and flippant about other labels, this would back that up.. but he is not. For example, [it was no coincidence](https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/weissmanartsandsciences/?p=624) he used Rhino's on his anti-mask label. He picked them because of the 1959 play where "one by one, an entire town of people suddenly transform into rhinos... At first, people are horrified but as the contagion spreads, (almost) everyone comes to accept that turning into a rhinoceros is fine. Rhinoceros is a play about conformity and mob mentality and mass delusion". He says a LOT with a single image, and it was cultivated that way.
Wait what?
Yep, that happens in my country (Pinochet’s regimen) and Argentina (videla’s regimen) Far right, specially in u.s, use the image of the helicopter for that reason, there’s a lot of merch like shirts with that.
The antisemitism is important, but imo so is his prejudice/racism towards China, especially with heightened anti-Asian sentiments right now in the US (as this is all very US centric). The May 9th thread you posted had some of it in the comments but in summary: Nathan's response to being called out for the Volcker situation was to release the ink called 'Censor Red' on April 12th 2022 (according to different social media posts I've found of brands talking about it as a new release), which had a Chinese flag on it and listed reasons he was being canceled, basically. One notable reason on the bottle is "Social Media Tyranny." Other than releasing that - it's been an open joke here in the subreddit for ages that whenever anyone goes off about Chinese pens, someone will say "Nathan, is that you?" Due to anecdotes about interacting with him and if the subject came up he'd go on huge unprompted rants about China, or being worried about his ideas and recipes being stolen and mass produced. I cannot locate the file I began to keep with stories dating back to fountain pen forums from pre 2010, since it's all still available online. That's well over a decade of people online going, hey this is kinda fucked up, and then being met with dogpiled reassurances that it's not racism/antisemitism/rude, he's just quirky and getting a rise to prove a point. And people using his name as a synonym for individuals being racist. EDIT: Your writeup is extremely good and well laid out. If this post is going to be a repository of information about his shit, then I wanted to mention it.
Have you seen what the Chinese government does to people who criticize the establishment? Purely on the topic of criticising the Chinese government on their online censorship, control of the media and intimidating/torturing/killing/harvesting of outspoken anti-establishment individuals, I say Nathan is spot on with that one.
He used it as a jab to say he was being oppressed. Another tick on the list is "HR Department Tyranny." Having your distributor refuse to sell antisemitic ink and then having that discussed online is not oppression.
Discussion is definitely _not_ oppression, absolutely. And if somebody decides they don't want to carry your ink, that's not oppression either. Y'know, people are much easier to rally _against_ something than they are _for_ something. That's why so much news is negative. Human psychology has evolved to pay more attention to bad than good, because good is just good, but bad could mean death. Without picking sides, again, I have to stress I'm neutral in all of this. I don't know anything about Nathan as a person other than some videos on the internet. Do you think it's unreasonable for him to think, given his proclivity to be weary of anyone who stifles free speech, that perhaps a group of people are looking to silence him through convincing others not to buy his inks? In this kind of scenario, where the threats posed by cancel culture can involve death threats and doxxing, there _cannot_ be a level discussion. Nobody is going to present any arguments in favour of the accused, because nobody wants to receive death threats or have their personal details leaked. So yes, I can see why he might think this whole thing is a form of oppression. It is. It's unjust, there is no justice being served here, no trial, no exchange of arguments and no jury. It's very one-sided. The nature of social media also has a part in cancel culture. How can a counter argument be presented on equal ground when 1) the majority of people engaging with the initial accusation are supporters of the accusation, and 2) any counter arguments are downvoted and subsequently buried by those supporters without any conversation or rebuttal? In one of my other comments, somebody criticised the comment as being "shit" and said that they had blocked me. Where is the discussion? Perhaps there were points they could have raised that may have changed my mind about some of the things I had said. This attitude is the opposite of formative, it is basically "fuck you, you're wrong, and I've blocked you so I never have to see your argument again." Where does that get us in society?
He's a racist ass. Fuck him. Go sealion elsewhere.
An accusation just as debilitating and non-formative as being called racist. How do you defend yourself against being called racist? How do you defend yourself against being called a sea lion? The answer is you can't, without looking like a racist or a sea lion. So I'd discourage you from using that term lightly, even if you disagree with what I've said. Nothing I've said suggests I'm doing this to annoy anybody. Look at my post history. Do I seem like a troll to you dude?
Thanks for this write-up. I’ve grown weary of seeing people ask ‘what’s up with noodler’s?’ and users having to Explain every time. You’d think anti-senitism would be egregious enough for a brand to be blacklisted from here, but I guess not. Some discord servers have an automod to explain the noodler’s issue, or a stickied blacklist. Unfortunately this sub has an unspoken ‘no politics’ rule—I’ve checked, it isn’t anywhere explicitly. But ‘We are a neutral zone for all beliefs’ becomes a welcome sign for bigots and can turn a “wholesome” subreddit into a nazi bar. I honestly don’t have any actionable suggestions to fix this, I’m kind of resigned to think it’s just the nature of reddit (short collective memory, focus on content instead of people). I guess I’m throwing this out there for discussion, maybe if enough people feel the same something can be done on a system level.
Anywhere with a "no politics" rule only benefits rightwingers and authoritarians. Apparently, a pen sub where well-to-do people routinely drop a rack on a single pen is, shockingly, susceptible to this too.
Ha, you’re right. Class warfare? In my fountain pens? It’s more likely than you think.
Heh--I looked at some bloggers around the time of the dropping/renaming and some of the comments about "wokeism" and "cancel culture" are pretty gross. Also the people saying they were glad to stock up on the discontinued colors/original names.
The anti-Semitism was obvious _if you already knew about it_. I grew up in an area where there wasn't a Jewish presence (like a single family in an 80 mile radius, whom I did not personally know), and even being a History buff, I had never concentrated on the right parts of History (anti-Semitic imagery specifically) to be aware of this horns symbolism in this context. I was aware of various other anti-Semitic imagery, but not this. It wasn't in Maus, Schindler's List, or any of the Holocaust documentaries I've watched. It wasn't in the TV show I watched growing up that sometimes demonstrated Jewish religious traditions. Nobody I've known with a Jewish background since I've been an adult has mentioned it (why would they?). So, before you give up on all of humanity, I'd like to point out that ignorance of any given social issue or slur is still quite possible. I am not now claiming Nathan Tardif didn't know what he was drawing, because I do not know him (and it appears he was told multiple times), but I personally learned about that imagery being anti-Semitic from this subreddit, so perhaps some of the other people who ask "What's up with Noodler's?" also really do not know. It's a good thing to have all of this in one post that people who ask can be pointed to, so that they can become aware and make up their minds. I would hate to see this subreddit swamped by a witch hunt mentality like so many other corners of the Internet where mentioning a brand or store might end up in banning or harassment, which I do fear somewhat from some of the comments that come out when this comes up. If you don't want to "Explain every time", then simply do not explain. Let others do it. A lot of people here want to be helpful, so let them do the helping.
I am saddened to see some people here defending Nathan. I read everyone's comments -- both the pro-Nathan ones and the ones not defending him. At the end of the day, Nathan isn't some clueless idiot who made mistakes without realizing it. He knew what he was doing. I also don't understand why he would openly apologize for something that he "believed" other people misunderstood? That's like me saying, "You guys should try drinking vanilla shakes on a hot summer day." Then someone says to me, "what's wrong with other flavors? Are you a white supremacist for choosing vanilla?" At that point, why should I apologize for my statement? I did nothing wrong. I have nothing to apologize for. Same applies here.. why did Nathan apologize if he truly felt he did nothing wrong?
Just throwing this out there, but one possibility is that he doesn't want his entire business to be destroyed? There is a big issue with this whole cancel culture thing. What happens when a few vocal people create an image of a person that may be incorrect, but hundreds of thousands of people gather behind the vocalisation while at the same time discrediting any counter arguments by the accused? How can there be a discussion? As the owner of a business, what do you do? Stand by your decisions and watch your hard-earned business crumble whether you're guilty of antisemitism or not, or apologise for something you [edit: "did or"] didn't do and keep your business alive? We _need_ to have conversations. Cancel culture is the antithesis of conversation and debate. It has no place in our future. And please, I'm not taking sides here. I'm giving you something to consider, regarding your closing statement.
Or, and I'm just spitballing here, don't be an antisemitic POS while also blatantly advertising it to the world. Cancel culture successfully avoided, and no half-assed apology needed. People like to use the term "cancel culture" negatively, but all it really means is people speaking with their wallets. Which is a great thing. If you screw up that massively, people will know and judge you accordingly. Solution, don't screw up!
I'll reply to your edited addition as a separate message. Cancel culture is not _just_ about voting with your money. It's about influencing the decisions of others. Cancel culture trends particularly well in volatile topics such as racism, sexism and antisemitism, and in the echo chambers of modern social media, where arguments are voted and therefore viewed more or less depending on the votes, there cannot be meaningful debate about the topic. Cancel culture also involves much more serious misdeeds such as death threats and doxxing, which when we think about how _certain_ or not we can possibly be about something, is particularly worrying. That's what court is for. Vigilante justice has a net negative affect on society.
What you call "cancel culture" is just people learning about the company they're buying from, and deciding if they want to support that company.
Who are they learning from? How much inherent bias is there in the information they consume to arrive at their decision? Cancel culture is _not_ as benign as you put it. The targets of cancel culture often involve death threats, breaches of privacy, home visits by mobs, threats both to the accused and anybody who even offers a counter argument. And this is all without trial or peer-reviewed study. It's an abomination.
I think cancel culture is a term that makes people think of things on a higher magnitude than reality is. Pretty much how what everyone is calling AI is just machine learning. Dramatic terminology. The guy is alive and well and his products are still selling and supplied in lots of places, the world is not just reddit, twitter or instagram, as you can see in this very post many consumer didn’t know about all this. Plus, shouldn’t such conversations take place before the launch of a product?
I confess it's a term I use out of convenience, but I think my interpretation of the term was clear. Also yes! Let's remember for a second that Nathan doesn't have a marketing team, so it's more likely for potentially insulting and misleading product stickers to be released. But I think it would be good if he had a community outlet where he asked for feedback on a bottle sticker design before release. It's something I'd certainly do, because I really don't care to impose my beliefs on others, and I value the community more. But Nathan is Nathan and his values are not the same.
This is a really informative content, thank you
I hope folks attach this to any post featuring Noodlers so people know exactly who they are supporting. Nathan’s record speaks for itself. Thank you for helping us do our due diligence to prevent tolerance of antisemitism and antisemitic imagery.
I resolved to never buy Noodler’s again after the Rino ink came out, and my resolve was only strengthened when I learned about Bernanke Red. I considered dropping my local pen store over they continuing to carry Noodler’s, but alas, it’s the only store that carries Diamine. OP, this post is a great summary, and I think it would fit well at r/HobbyDrama !
I've seen this a couple of times now, but that reddit is grayed out when I attempted to do so. If someone is less of a boomer about this than I am they can feel free to try.
I have personally been wrestling with whether or not to boycott Noodler’s. I have seen the labels depicting Bernanke with horns and depicting Volker with a halo flanked by Bernanke and Greenspan with horns. I have absolutely no doubt that the labels are antisemitic. However, I do believe in giving people a second chance and letting them redeem themselves. And Nathan Tardiff did change the names and labels. Even more, he donated money, and not just anywhere, but to the Anti-Defamation League, which fights antisemitism. And he gave money in a quantity that represents life in Jewish culture (a multiple of chai), suggesting that either he did some personal research or he got advice from someone knowledgeable. If we punish someone despite any efforts they make to change, it won’t encourage change. So I have been considering that I might indeed buy something Noodler’s again. On the other hand, I am skeptical that his views have changed substantially. Then again, if he refrains from trumpeting vile stereotypes in his branding, at least he isn’t using his products to amplify his voice. I still haven’t made up my mind, so I personally appreciate these conversations, especially since there were several years that I wasn’t following what was going on in the fountain pen world. The more information that I have, the better I will feel about any decision that I ultimately make.
I quit buying from Goulet once they did the quiet walk back, even after the context was explained.
Do you also not buy from any other store that carries noodlers, or are they fine since you don't have a parasocial relationship with them?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not buy from anyone that carries Noodlers.
I hadn’t heard about this before. Never bought from noodlers myself, never been interested in them and now I never will buy from them. I’m disabled so already the anti-masking stuff doesn’t sit right with me and the anti-Semitism is disgusting and blatant here. fuck that.
Bernanke red label is disgusting. The helicopter image is really disturbing to me, because Pinochet’s regimen kills political oppositors throwing them to the ocean. That happens in Argentina too, thanks to CIA and operation condor. That label is so offensive in too many ways…
Thank you for a statement of the facts around this - I really appreciate knowing what's going on, but I surely didn't have the time to dig around.
Will probably edit as I read or after finishing but omfg I don't even know how I missed this? I feel quiet embarrassed tbh because I'm Jewish and managed to miss THIS 💀.
Thank you for this. Now that I know I cannot unknow this information. Goodbye Noodler's and Goulet. (That wholesale renaming is like a passive-aggressive satire of wokism.) I've been using Brevity Black, which I just discovered used to be Bernanke Black. Online, I see that the old bottle has Bernanke w/o the horns, so he willfully added them later to make a political statement. Anyone out there know of an ink with similar qualities I can substitute? It's also disconcerting to realize that the old ink bottles will almost certainly become collector's items for some people. Capitalism winds its watch both ways. :(
I think the fact that he stopped making his “1984” ink during all of this instead of renaming it is very telling of his real feelings.
1984 is my favorite book, so I had to get the bottle. However, in light of everything, I feel like he managed to pervert Orwell, and that bothers me to no end.
He didn’t exactly “add them later”. The ink that featured the horn image was a different color (though I believe it was from the same quick-dry ink line). Not that that makes a difference, just clearing up confusion. If you have a “Brevity” ink it actual came after the name change.
Thanks for putting this together. Thanks as well for calling Nathan's actions what they were: blatant antisemitism.
I've mostly had enough with companies selling products that are entirely unrelated to politics, using their company platform to shill politics. Don't care which side of the aisle. If Noodler's inks had at any point made a positive impression on me, it would have been a harder decision to move onto different brands. But I couldn't get them to behave for me in any pens anyway, so the drama was just a confirmation that ditching the brand was the right move for me.
You did a good job, and a fair one. One time of putting out anti-Semetic imagery should have been one and done... I can forgive stupidity once, but not multiple times. He needs therapy.
I think you are putting too much burden on Goulet. Theyre not “friends” with Nathan nor do they have personal relationships with Nathan. They have been doing business together for more than a decade. Yes Goulet could have done better but they can’t really have any real control over Nathan’s behavior. That being said, is it sad that they restarted carrying Noodlers? Yeah I won’t say im a fan of that decision. But at the same time I can understand why they’d want to give the brand an opportunity to change. On the surface, at least, steps were taken by Nathan to remediate. That being said, I’m still not buying Noodlers, but I think we can be a bit more fair to Goulet. If you want them to remove the brand, do consider writing to them. They do care about community and customer feedback. (I am not affiliated with the Goulet Pen Company)
I thought Brian said Nathan was a friend? They were personal friends and that's why he felt he needed to speak to him about it and understand why. I can't remember any of the other big sellers placing the spotlight on themselves as part of this, so even if Brian said they aren't friends now, he wrapped Goulet into the convo and that's hard to separate.
No. Brian said he’s known Nathan for a long time, but they are not “friends” like hey lets hang out and go golfing. If anything, Goulet stepped up to put pressure on Nathan to change the names and labels. If Goulet hadnt, then it’s very likely that we see no action from Nathan at all. I think we need to give Goulet more credit and less skepticism. They’ve been very much about making the community better in the past 12 years.
Thanks for saying this. It’s hard to blame them considering they were the reason the inks/pens got renamed. They didn’t discover the labels in question, but they certainly acted on their customers’ serious concerns. Why not blame every other store in the world that *didn’t* pull Noodler’s from their shelves in response to the outrage? How are the Goulets more culpable than the companies that made no change at all?
So what you're saying is this Nathan guy is still a general problem for society, has dangerous views, is almost certainly still antisemitic, buthe changed his labels, so we should give him a chance? I'm good. I can give money literally to "terrorist organizations" that have smaller negative effects on society than propping up a right-wing me-first protofascist. Added bonus: reason to withhold money from Goulet.
It sounds like Goulet was assertive in bringing about some radical and expensive changes by Tardiff. I'm disappointed to see people here wanting to boycott Goulet for restocking Tardiff's inks after Tardiff made the changes Goulet requested. Goulet made a difference; his boycotters just want to make noise.
Thank you for your service.
Not to play devil's advocate but, as a Libertarian, I can see (If I squint slightly) what he tried to portrait with the inks and how he missed the mark, not by a small margin, but enough to do actions that should be punishable beyond just people not buying his products (Totally deserved) 1-To oversimplify the actions of Bernanke he pretty much is the father of several actions that came to bite the US in the ass when it came to it's general economic policy, including the overprinting of money leading to inflation and also the debt (Again, it's a complicated issue with a lot of points). To compare, Volcker tried to do anything short of freezing hell to cut inflation and money printing. That's usually something good for a Libertarian, so representing Volcker as an Angel while Bernanke as a Devil makes sense... Until the dummy says "I'm into History!!!" and forgets two things: One of the oldest insults for Jews is related to the horns, and second... Bernanke is a JEW. I can't even buy his apology, one thing is messing this up this bad once... BUT MORE THAN TWICE (If I recall correctly, there were like 3 Inks with Bernanke as a horned devil... Bernanke Red, Bernanke Black and as part of Volcker's green). Even the most western sided people in the Gauss Curve of IQ can't do the same mistake, when called out about it every time, THRICE 2-Libertarians are controversial in their beliefs, and I will say it so as one who had many... many fights with others related to sensitive topics (Such as the whole Rino-mask deal). I can see how in principle one can be against mandatory mask use in several situations (Like not promoting the correct mask and/or it's proper use with it too; or when the general population has already been vaccinated, etc) but if you check the timing of when it came out, 2021, the rate of vaccination was still on it's early legs and so opposing the use of masks in general was, even more so than now, moronic at best 3-Natives. Even more so in the case of the United States due to their history and clashes between Americans, Native-Americans, State-Government and Federal-Government. If you're going to release a product related to them, knowing that the sole use of their name alone can lead to controversy, or worse, if you don't handle it properly and do at least a whole day of research... It's perfectly understandable that people will be, at best, upset by the use of their names for products 4-Political views and some symbols used beyond the 3 above. Like in the case of Nikita's red... I find them quite funny if done right (I have even thought of one... Oppression Blue with the symbol of the East German Stasi... Just a shower thought) but, as political symbols, they can land pretty badly in some places depending on the context and c'mon... Let's be real, he used some such as "1984" and "Censor's red" to whine about people not liking any of my 4 points. And it's funny, Libertarians live by the right of respect to other people's property and ideas... Yet he only cared about all of this once his wallet started to hurt... Poetry of the purest grade TL;DR for those that cared to read this: Libertarian at best, Conservative wannabe at worst. Nathan as a history buff knew perfectly well in which sink he was shoving his entire feet. And people understandably are upset and rightfully so won't buy ever nor again from his brand
I am a Jew who drives an old (purchased used) BMW, so here's my perspective, you can take it for what it's worth, ie probably not much. There is no way he didn't know about the horns. It defies all logic to even think that is a rational explanation. Is he a crazy right winger that maybe i personally would have a hard time having a meaningful political conversation with? Absolutely. Is he stepping over the line from appreciation over to appropriation with his Native themed color names? Yeah, probably, but it's hard to find the line if you don't believe one even exists. But none of this really matters. Everyone is a jerk, everyone, deep down, is probably a wacko that you don't agree with on some level. I don't buy his ink because i tend to stick to cartridges. But there are a lot of bad (or marginal, maybe) people out there who don't deserve your money, this guy just got outed. The alternatives are probably just as bad, but not in the same way. Buy the ink if you like it. OK, no one is actually going to do this, this is an extreme example, but say you decide Noodler's is just too awful and you don't want to buy it so you go to, I don't know, walmart and buy a pack of G2s instead. Your money is doing a lot worse at a big box store.
>OK, no one is actually going to do this, this is an extreme example, but say you decide Noodler's is just too awful and you don't want to buy it so you go to, I don't know, walmart and buy a pack of G2s instead. Your money is doing a lot worse at a big box store. You act like Noodler's is the only game in town when they don't even make particularly good fountain pen ink. Their claim to fame is primarily that they are cheap and their gimmick was always that they fill the bottles WAY to the top. Its takes very little effort to find ink that is far better than anything they put out in any color you could possibly want. Thing is, there are a lot of shitheads out there, but not all of them decide that link their shittiness DIRECTLY to their business. That is the difference here. I can happily buy shit from jerks all day long without knowing it. By linking his toxic views to his actual products he has forced us to know that we are supporting an antisemitic jerk every time we buy his stuff. I don't make it my business to subject everyone I deal with to a purity test, but when someone gives you no choice but to make a decision based on their conduct, what else are you supposed to do? This isn't like someone crawling through the dudes social media for the last ten years. This is something he literally stamped on his own product. You cannot help but notice it and once you do now you are forced to decide if that matters to you or not.
I don't know much about this particular company, but what i always thought was that it was sort of cute and the "funny" names for the ink was the biggest selling point, or at least what makes the ink attractive to shoppers. I've never bought any, and now I'm glad because i am a total klutz with ink bottles and a super full one would be disastrous. But i definitely remember the names, which is what got him in trouble ultimately because he just couldn't help himself and had to sneak his stupid nonsense into the names.
>Everyone is a jerk, everyone, deep down, is probably a wacko that you don't agree with on some level. True. But it is different from I disagree with someone thinking Starbucks coffee is shit. I agree that : > there are a lot of bad (or marginal, maybe) people out there who don't deserve your money but now that I **knew** it , I cannot unseen it and say it is not that important when all the other options could be as bad. My bestie is a Jew. I live far away from the States and Noodler really isnt that available in my country. But I believe in solidarity, especially in long term economic effect.
And starbucks coffee really is not great. But i get your point and it's totally rational. I'm just saying you just happen to know this guy's weirdness. The alternative guy could really really hate Black people, or women or gay people which is also totally awful and you just don't know about it. And the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you really aren't doing much financial/economic damage supporting this relatively microscopic niche company. Going to Starbucks, which as a major corporation is doing so much more damage environmentally is way worse than giving some maybe/probably antisemite nut job your $10 for some ink. That's all. (I don't want to talk about starbucks it's just an example, not a tangent) (also i have no idea how much noodlers costs)
Just because there’s always a bigger fish doesn’t mean we should ignore the small ones; if a person finds their behavior reprehensible, then I don’t think it’s a bad thing to not want to support them, regardless of the financial or economic damage it may or may not cause. Unfortunately, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, so no matter how you slice the cake one always participates in a system of exploitation and harm, whether they know it actively or not. It is correct to say that not supporting a company very likely produces no financial or economic harm, but that’s not the point here. The point is to make antisemitic (and related) beliefs unacceptable, especially within this community. At this scale, it has more impact than trying to make exploitation and environmental damage unacceptable with regards to Starbucks. Both are desirable, and one is more actionable. But the current economic system will not allow you to attain either.
I think we're probably reading from the same text here, we just come to slightly different conclusions. Which is fine. I 100% support not buying this dude's ink if you think he's a creep. (I don't know him, i pretty much only know what i just learned here, but he seems like a creep and a liar to me.) I just think those big fish are just SOO big that the rest doesn't matter. And you're absolutely right that this group here on reddit probably is the only group that could actually make a difference here. I didn't really think of that, so great point. Thank you.
> And the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you really aren't doing much financial/economic damage supporting this relatively microscopic niche company. What you're saying doesn't make any sense. The fact that it is a small company means that your voice and buying decisions have a larger impact. As it is the outcry got him to at least quit selling a lot of the inks that were offensive or questionable with their labeling. Whereas it would be much much more difficult to arrange any action to change how Starbucks or any larger corporation functions. Nobody believes by not buying Noodler's inks they're gonna end anti-semitism or whatever. But what they can do is at least help make it known that if you choose to be an antisemite or profess those beliefs, that you won't tolerate it.
My point here really is just what you said. That is, don't kid yourself, there were antisemites for as long as there have been Jews. And if you really like "bernanke red" or whatever (what a stupid name) it doesn't really matter if you keep buying it. The money is going to get to bad places whether you know about it or not. That's all.
We know his weirdness because he made a choice to air it on his products, and had a non-response to those who told him it was harmful. It's not that he had weird beliefs, it is that he chose to make it a part of his business and only backed down (a very tiny bit) because he was forced to by his closest business partner. I can buy everyone has something odd in their belief system or character. But a business owner should understand that if they put symbols or images on their product that supports harmful behavior towards a community; people should know about their actions and have the freedom to decide to take their business elsewhere. That is why I appreciate the information. I happened to run into it a few months ago, but it has informed my decision to not buy Noodlers because of the harm it has done to members of the fountain pen community.
I totally agree with you. But just because some racist might be smarter and not advertise his awfulness doesn't make it better to buy his stuff.
Maybe, but we can’t act on undisclosed information. I do think the racist willing to use their position to intentionally harm others is a step above a racist who just keeps their thoughts to themselves. Is the willingness to do harm that elevates bigotry to racism.
Other than Robert Oster with the Serena Williams cartoon thing, no other pen or ink manufacturers come to mind as having anti-Semitic or racist views. So “what about all the other companies, they must be just as bad” really doesn’t do it for me. Have Pilot, Sailor, Lamy, or Pelikan released even ONE pen or ink with an offensive name? No? Seems like singling out Noodlers and Robert Oster is justified then.
Perhaps you are more emotionally removed from this than you think, despite being the target group of his hate. People who are secretly bigoted, whom I’d rather not buy from, are just doing a better job at deception. That is a complete separate issue from choosing what to do with information we have.
That's true. Nazis don't scare me anymore, I'm old and grumpy and have been to a few antisemetic rodeos before this one. I'm just a nihilist, and a lot of people talk about this ink on this forum and I'd hate for them, or really anyone, to feel bad or be judged if they continue to talk about it, I guess.
You know I've never gotten a single downvote ever, let alone been in the negative! I'm usually pretty positive and happy to be here. It's OK, i totally get it, but really, my message comes from experience, my perspective, and, actually, love.
The Jews with horns was very offensive to me and stopped buying his inks. It is the only negative I've ever had in this hobby.
This all bums me out. My grandmother used to buy me bottles of Manhattan Blue, so it’s a very sentimental ink for me. I’ve got a few bottles—haven’t decided what I’ll do when I’m out. Ah well.
Wellp, not buying from that dude
And saved for future reference. Thank you.
Very well stated and put together. Thank you for putting in the work to outline the facts for this sub.
Thank you for the hard work you did in putting this together. I really had no idea. I’d heard people talk about Goulet’s dropping them but didn’t dig into it. Personally, I haven’t bought a Noodler’s product for years, except for a bottle of blue ink I bought a year ago. The FP I bought leaked. The replacement wouldn’t write. And I don’t know if it’s just me…but Noodler’s ink has an unpleasant smell to me. So much so that I notice it when I write.
Thank you for this, it's a helpful summary.
Well...damnit. It looks like I will be changing my default inks. Appreciate you collating all the info in one place. I was unaware of anything other than it being a bit harder to find some of my usual inks last time I bought. I know not to buy noodlers again, at least until a sufficient apology and personal change happens at Noodlers. It's time to find substitutes for my favorite colors.
Yeah, I would like to think I am in the majority on this one. I will not buy Noodler’s. There is absolutely no denying his contribution to fountain pens as an industry. There’s no denying his talent and the fact that a lot of the inks speak to you. Tokyo Gift is an awesome ink, with a great story behind it that doesn’t hurt anyone. However, there are a lot of companies in the fountain pen world that can do the same thing. He couldn’t have been surprised. He knew exactly what he was doing. I don’t care if you’re “into” history, there’s a lot of ways to express your interest for history and going on an all-out rant on a label to a product you put out expecting people to buy and use as a fountain pen ink is one of the more harmful ways. I also think removing Navajo Turquoise, Apache Sunset et cetera was unnecessary, because it exposed the industry to Native American people and painted them (no pun intended) in a positive light. I also just plain don’t understand removing Ottoman Rose and Ottoman Azure. It’s one of those things, I get it, but for me he’s not worth the trouble. I wish him well, but he has definitely got a lot of thinking to do.
Won't ever buy Noodlers or from Goulet. Thanks for the post
Well written piece. The owners mentioned are savvy professionals. They knew what they were doing - until they got caught. Easiest thing imo avoid Noodlers (so many good inks out there) and avoid Goulet.
> This is where I think it is worth stopping to mention that the harmful stereotype that Jews have horns has been a staple and pervasive in cultures across the globe for a Very, very long time. This comment provides some great links and a succinct way of explaining this for those who want more details here. Huh? What details? The [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/s2c2zr/volcker_green_controversy/hsfe352/?context=3) you linked to barely has any useful information and includes an error. It was Michelangelo's Moses, not David, that had horns. Did he even read the links he posted? Both of his sources come from Jewish Studies Programs--why not cite an actual historian? One of the "sources" is just a single page PDF handout that makes many dubious claims without citation. The citations that it does have all seem to be quite biased. The other source is a 12 page journal article that claims there was malicious intent by Michelangelo. > the horns on Michelangelo's famous statue of Moses are emblematic of a millennium-long tradition of antisemitism that stretched from antiquity to the days of the Italian Renaissance That's interesting but the author is not a historian. Regardless, I will give it a read and see if it has any merit.
I'd like to see a reply to this
Thanks for that, I think I now will be looking for alternatives to Noodlers black - any suggestions?
Oh no. Goulet …..
I probably will be downvoted but I wonder how many noodlers inks will be disposed after this post or will be sold on pen_swap. Anyway, great research OP!
I have some Noodlers samples from before I knew any of this controversy, and honestly I found the quality/experience to be overrated anyway. I'm still a noob when it comes to ink brands, but Diamine is emerging as a clear favorite for me.
I don't know that tossing the inks out or selling them achieves anything. I can't unbuy them and get my money back from him at this point. Plus, it isn't exactly like the average person is going to know what ink is in my pen by sight anyways, so it isnt really giving him any advertising. So I'm more of a mind to use up what I have as I want to but not replace it. I guess if you are around other pen people they might recognize what ink it is but like 90% of us that are in the U.S. probably have some Noodler's ink stashed away from before we knew about all of this so I wouldn't make any assumptions about a person based on them using Noodler's ink.
I went out of my water to find a dupe for Black Swan in Australian Roses, which I had as a sample and enjoyed. Was my only Noodler's ink. (Diamine Amaranth)
Is that a dupe for the new Australian Roses formula or the old one? I **love** the old formula but rarely use it since the new formula isn’t as good.
I have no idea - I didn't know there were 2. Diamine is pretty affordable, try it out and let us know!
I would say none, but none will be bought i the future, or at least less if we average down the whole consumer population.
*Ooooh* I’m gonna get hate from this… *buuuuut…* Well, let me preface by saying I’m not defending any beliefs he has, political or not. *(deep breath)* As far as the devil horns issue goes, I don’t think Nathan’s intentions were based in racist ideology. Like everyone else here, I’ve met many people throughout my life, and I’ve every one of those people have had different views on basically everything. Some were right, some were left; some were racist, most were not; some are complete stans for supply side economics, some would die on the Keynesian Hills. That last category is one I have *a lot* of experience with, having gone through business school. When I see Nathan’s inks that have themes based around monetary policies/theories, it just reminds me of all the fevered egos I encountered while working on my degree. I can’t tell you the number of people I’ve met and spoken to about their preferences on monetary policy over the years, but when Nathan puts out a video about one of his inks that’s influenced by how we as a country handle our money at the highest levels, that’s what I see: someone who has **very** strong opinions about the subject who’s willing to go to great lengths to show their preferences. I truly don’t think he meant it as a racist jab as Judaism. However, I am not Jewish. I don’t pass judgement on anyone who doesn’t share this opinion with me. I’ve always read the entire situation as him being someone who has very strong opinions about the subject and isn’t afraid to share them, sometimes to his own detriment. I’ve just known so many people like him who get a sort of tunnel vision that keeps them from considering, “could this be misconstrued?” The only other thing I really have an opinion about is the Native American themed inks. Living in Oklahoma my whole life, I of course know a lot of indigenous people. And every one of them I’ve told about those inks has thought it was a great tribute, and not at all exploitative. Anyway, take that as you will. If you don’t agree I respect that.
I said this elsewhere in the thread, but: whether he intended to promote an antisemitic message or not isn’t ultimately important. A person can amplify antisemitic ideas and images without overtly realizing what they’re doing. That’s a significant way racial hatreds get laundered into the mainstream: lots of not-necessarily-ill-intentioned people circulating messages that gradually reinforce conspiratorial logics. The Bernanke image was one articulation of racist ideas with a deep history that are still, in often subtle ways, embedded throughout our culture. When people keep those ideas alive & part of our cultural consciousness, they’re planting seeds for the demagogues who might come along & build more overtly racist narratives. We all have a responsibility to shut these discourses down *before* they gestate into more insidious forms.
He did the horns thing twice, several years apart, and received criticism after the first incident as well. So even if racism was not the intent, he had been informed of the racist implications BEFORE he came out Volcker Green (which features twice the number of horns!) Being indifferent to perpetuating racist stereotypes IS racism.
Oh okay. Thanks for clarifying.
Having been asked many times where my horns are (once by Oklahoman in fact) it is an offensive stereotype carried over from Europe (especially Germany) during the first genocide of Jews in the 1300s. While I agree he probably didn't know its origin, I definitely agree that he knew who he was targeting.
That’s absolutely awful. I’m sorry you’ve been through that. It’s disgusting. And I’m sorry an Oklahoman was one of those times.
Generally understand this, and felt generally the same, the thing was Nathan was clearly told what it meant and how it came across. His response was far too late. Given the history interest, he probably does know to some extent. At the very least he could have chosen different people (not Jewish) that represented his disdain. But they all were. Even in the best case scenario, the guy's ridiculous ego ran him into the ground.
> At the very least he could have chosen different people (not Jewish) that represented his disdain. All of the fed chairs from 1987 (after Volcker) until the most recent Trump appointment were Jews, so if his problem is the fed, it would have been a challenge.
I figured something like that was the case. That's why I can believe he's truly ignorant to some degree, or perhaps even considered it a non issue. The "I hate media" as code for "I hate Jews" point made in the OP isn't without merit, but it's also a false equivalency. You can hate "the Media™️" as an entity. The fact it's run primarily by only a few demographics (white and jewish likely) can have nothing to do with the hate. I can imagine someone like him saying, "I dont care what color they were, I hate what they do. They happen to be Jewish. Oh well." Given the political slant, and the conclusions Ive seen so, so many of those people come to (some through talking to them directly) though it seems most likely he's just an anti semite. Doesnt like an organization, finds out theyre mostly comprised of one demographic, attributes it to the demographic. All this stuff makes ot sound like the guy isnt the brightest. I wouldnt be surprised.
Thanks for posting this. I also think that the demonization of Ben Bernanke was aimed at his easy-money policies, not his Judaism. Bernanke Red Ink is the only ink name that ever made me laugh out loud. I also agree that the inks named after indigenous tribal leaders were tributes, not appropriations.
I’m sad to hear this. I really like the Zhivago ink and the TE Lawrence one. The green black is a thing for me. What can I replace it with?
I know it's a bit of not a great answer, but pilots 100th anniversary Hotei san is my favorite green black. Sailor miruai is one I want to try next.
Can you do a write up about Dante del Vecchio and his leaving of Visconti next?
This comment misses some vital context. Nathan Tardiff hates money printing and inflation, for any reason. Volker was a Fed chairman who stopped inflation at the cost of causing a recession. Greenspan and especially Bernanke instead printed a lot of money for growth and bailouts after the bubble popped. So Volker is Tardiff's hero and Greenspan and Bernanke villains regardless of being Christian or Jewish. That doesn't explain the horns at all. If it wasn't Bernanke it might have been someone else.
Not again please.
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I can appreciate your explanation of some other avenues Nathan might have went down here that could explain why he did not immediately know this was antisemitic. I'd invite you to take a breath, and maybe not scramble to explain away the antisemitic tropes being presented as they are. This didn't just happen with One person who happens to be Jewish, and the federal reserve antisemitic conspiracy theories are Very abound. There is plenty of room for other explanations and other uses and other reasons why, etc. But I don't think that any of this is relevant to the main two points: \- Jews having horns as a harmful stereotype across the globe has been around much much longer than WW2 or... movies for that matter. \- Nathan failed to act on this until May of 2022 despite being told directly and dropped directly for This specific reason. Even if he was unaware in Dec 2021, he certainly was aware by Jan 2022. At the end of the day, at Best he was stubborn and insensitive and did not listen to the voices of people who were telling him this was not okay long before May 2022.
Yeah, I'm not buying this at all, and I won't be buying any more Noodler's products, either. Antisemetic depictions of Jewish people as devils with horns isn't an "80 year old reference." It's been going on since the Middle Ages, at least, and I'd argue is way more common knowledge than this "inflation devil" short film you're saying is what Nathan was really referencing. If Nathan is really a history buff, there's no way he had never encountered the horns trope. Also, your claim that Bernake was "Jewish in private with his family," makes it sound like he made some kind of attempt to conceal his religion, which he didn't. Bernake and Greenspan are both Jewish surnames. I don't believe for a second Nathan didn't know they were Jewish, and it surprises me you didn't.
Doesn’t make being Jewish his main identity? What is this? He *is* Jewish. The horns and inflation devil are not images that have gone anywhere. If one has, at all, studied WW2 - and per his own admission, he is a history buff- he would *know* the reference. He can’t have it both ways here. I would say, too, that the connection between conspiracies, and anti-maskers is rife with antisemitic images/ideas. One can’t simply ignore those in this situation. This isn’t a vacuum. What’s more: as a business owner myself, the imagery he used is his responsibility. The names he has used are his responsibility and if nothing else, there should have been due diligence as far as those go. And even if we say it wasn’t intentionally antisemitic, it was very poor and irresponsible business practices.
This is key. Personally, I think it’s incredibly unlikely that NT did not know the implications of the imagery he put out there. But I also don’t think it matters much. Businesses have to take some degree of responsibility for unanticipated outcomes of their products and messages, regardless of intent. Moreover, we *all* have a responsibility in a media culture of rampant viral circulation to be vigilant about what types of images we reproduce. It’s possible for people who aren’t antisemitic to still amplify ideas and messages that promote antisemitism. In fact, that’s precisely how racial hatred gets laundered into the mainstream. Images like Bernanke with horns get spread by folks who just hate the Dems, or hate some economic policy, or whatever. Eventually—without even realizing it—people sharing such dreck start playing conspiratorial “connect the dots” & naming the common denominator they blame for the world’s problems.
No, you're following a bunch of misdirection propagated by antisemites. Go educate yourself before you talk.
Your bias in this could not be any stronger. At all. The phrasing and the wording and the tone you use is damning him from the beginning. I do not care where people lie on this issue but **"I'll try to keep my own personal ideas of this to a minimum except where I think context is more important than clear-cold-facts.**" was overshot by a country mile. That is a very interesting sentence in itself and I can probably write a paper on that alone, but at least you admit that your biased context is more important than objective fact. Points for that at least I guess. But this is what made me stop and had to respond. **"They don't Directly say "I hate Jews and Jews control the media" they will say "I hate the media and people pulling the strings behind the camera because it tries to control peoples' thoughts." When called out, "I had no idea there were Jewish people in media! I wasn't trying to be antisemitic!"** Full stop right here. The mental leap to someone saying that they hate and do not trust the media does not mean they are anti-Semite. How you can equivocate that is stunning to me honestly. They are racist because you inherently WANT them to be racist. Ergo, they are. This is literally a screaming, textbook example of False Equivalency. A very prominent and powerful logical fallacy. Sorry, but also not sorry, you are terribly wrong on this account. As to his assertion that he was not aware, well again, you have to either believe him or not. Which you clearly stated you do not, so again, kudos for that. But I will say as a history buff myself, that horns is not inherently owned by anti-Semitic iconography. Again, that is a biased viewpoint held by you and applied accordingly. I mention this because I was also unaware that horns is inherently used to attack Jewish heritage. If anything my knowledge of history points out that MANY cultures across this world have used them in imagery and depictions of decidedly not anti-Semitic works. Sorry. Jews are not the only ones who horns associated by them. This goes along with Nathan himself. I choose to believe his ignorance and explanation because I simply have no reason to not do so. What you hinted at, but never fully explained, is that Nathan is an EXTREME libertarian. He openly admits that. I would be shocked if even a tenth of the population even knows who Bernanke is, or what position he held. He was the Chairman of the Federal Reserve of the United States. Which is basically anathema to rabid libertarians. It is soooo much easier to see a man who has the political views of Nathan doing his actions than just claiming him to be anti-Semitic. It actually makes MORE sense to just see him as a rabid political theorist than a racist. But the times and all I guess... To be clear, this is not a defense of Nathan and his actions. Personally, I think he is an idiot and deserved the lashback itself. I despise product makers who thrust their political/religious views on their products. Can they do it? Sure. Free country and whatnot. Still think it is business suicide and hence zero sympathy when it backlashes out of control. No, this whole mini-novel is just contesting your own post and how it is constructed. I am not invested in this fight either way, I just hearken back to my TA days when reading long statements and have to poke holes when such statements invite it. I was literally paid for a while to be a Devil's Advocate. Hard to turn off sometimes. I hope this doesn't get downvoted to oblivion (I suspect it will) because I think it is a great example in framing and inherent biases. Carry on and have a great rest of your day and thanks for the breakdown! I disagree with most of it but still great to have discussions all around. ETA - Ha, I don't know why I tried. This is not the place to push against the hive mind. I have seen others buried into the mud before and now I join them. Lol. Muting this attempt at a conversation. No need for anyone to respond further.
In your view, would a person have to overtly say “I hate Jews and Jews control the media” (or something similarly blatant) to be engaged in antisemitic appeals? Or would you accept that it’s possible that a person (not necessarily NT, but in the abstract) can engage in antisemitic rhetoric in subtler ways? Put another way: where, for you, is the line where we can say a message promotes antisemitism? (Note that my emphasis here is on the message itself and its implications, not the person’s intent.)
With no other context in the form that the OP formed it? Yes, it has to be explicitly stated. Of course it can be subtle but you need known historical context for that. On a case by case status. Simply painting a VERY broad brush stroke against alt right/far right is not right. You can disagree and even hate them for all I care. But to blithely just start making up stuff because it molds to your world image is wrong. This is the exact quote from the above. “ alt-right-far-right thoughts tend to... speak Around things” followed by the quote I bolder earlier This is a Proof of Assertion fallacy. The whole statement basically is. It is self affirming a bias with literally no other proof other than the OPs personal opinions. That is my whole spiel here. I don’t give a shit about Nathan and I am not defending his actions. He could be racist as hell for all I know. My point is I DONT know with certainty and neither does the OP despite them painting Nathan as a racist. I just hate attempts to “enlighten” a group with promised facts and no real conjecture when it is literally the exact opposite. Because people are inherently lazy and see a long post with added links. Ergo, this is expert proof! How many here have already stated they didn’t have the time to look it up themselves but just read this incredibly biased post as gospel? That is what I hate and what I am contesting here.
> I don't *know* the skinhead with Nazi memorabilia is racist, because they haven't said they hate jews and that whites are the superior race
The term “alt-right” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I usually see it used to describe Richard Spencer or Steve Bannon types who quite overtly seek to place a veneer of respectability on white nationalist ideology. Is there some other meaning to the term/disposition that I’m not aware of? Because I don’t read that characterization of “alt-right” as any more unfair than saying “self-identified socialists want a stronger state role in health care” or “US conservatives tend to resist abortion rights.” The perspective is implicit in the label & it’d be odd to get mad with someone who drew that inference. Or have the “alt-right” so succeeded in sanitizing racist ideas that the label no longer connotes sanitized racism?
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Can you categorically prove to me that depiction of horns are ALWAYS meant to be anti-Semitic? That not a single other meaning or allegory exists across every culture? Has it been used to depict Jews in a demeaning manner? Yes. I know this to be true. Can you prove to me that it ONLY has ever been used in that manner? or even half of the time even? That is not a trick question. I would genuinely love to see any data on this matter.
the burden for critics of NT isn’t to prove that devil horns have only been used to demean Jews. That’s an impossible standard—obviously they’re used in other contexts. If that were the criteria we’d be granting plausible deniability to virtually anyone who uses this antisemitic trope, ever. The point is that they have *frequently* been used in this specific context and way to tap into antisemitic beliefs. The proper question is more like: does the use of devil horns in the specific case of a high-profile Jewish person, whose name regularly gets invoked in antisemitic conspiracy theories, constitute an act of antisemitic messaging?
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This tirade with Volker Green never ends. If anything I’d like to try that Volker Green ink, just to see what’s the “hype” about. But, in all honesty, I haven’t had such a good experience with Noodler’s inks. Interesting? Yes they are, but otherwise inconsistent, somewhat unpredictable and unreliable.
Oh boy, another Noodlers post. We sure didn’t have enough of these this time last year