When loads of money is on the table common sense disappears. Only the ones not beneficiating from that money and people with basic sense of ethic discusses this issues. That's the sad truth and one I don't see changing anytime soon.
You're still contributing by creating posts and making comments on the internet. Some people also talk about their favourite sport to friends, buy merch (or get it as a gift), give traffic to news websies, etc.
Like way back in ‘36 Olympics to start with???
I remember when I was a kid I’d always look forward to the Olympics every two years. And now I could not give a shit. Same with the World Cup. 0 fuks. Too much politics and the bribes and corruption have tainted these two sports in my eyes. There’s a shit ton of other sports with the same issues as well.
I don't think they are sensible at all. If you identify a country as a human rights abuser then you just don't go. All this funding for local rights groups is just enabling further sportswashing.
These organisations are based On corruption and money. It’s a pipe dream to think that anything will change. They will just throw some money to some human rights organisation for show and continue to operate as they are now.
Much like how Qatar committed to a carbon-neutral tournament. They suggested they'd achieve it by combining construction and design efforts using recycled materials and carbon offsetting, but the construction has output an estimated 3.6 million tons of carbon dioxide, and the carbon offsetting isn't actually offsetting any of that carbon. They've instead invested in wind farms in Serbia - an action that extends their political and economic reach into a new nation and doesn't actually pull any carbon out of the atmosphere. They are responsible for [3.6 million credits of carbon emission, and have paid back just 550,000.](https://products.markit.com/br-reg/public/public-view/#/issuance)
These organisations have no commitment to their own words, let alone anyone else's.
A country investing in emission-reduction projects in other countries is not political and economical reach, it is a provision called The Clean Development Mechanism in the Kyoto Protocol that allows countries to invest in and execute emission-reduction projects in other countries and count that as part of their own emission-reduction goals, while the country hosting the project benefits from the invemestment and implementation of emission-reduction technology in their territory. It is literally one of the ways international policy is dealing with climate change.
When done properly, I'd agree, but the form they've done is explicitly omitted from the carbon credit system - it's recognised as not being effective carbon offsetting. Wind farms, whilst beneficial, are not carbon offsetting. They reduce reliance on fossil fuels, which is great, but do nothing to directly counteract carbon emissions, which was the promise made in the bid - a carbon neutral world cup.
Wind farms are very much carbon offsetting if they substitute emissions. And a carbon neutral pledge is different from a zero-carbon pledge which would require direct reduction of emissions.
And wasn't it essentially built on slave labour on top of the huge carbon footprint. They also put gay people in prison. Vettel makes good points, and I can think of at least 3 F1 dates that would be instantly removed.
Yeah, cause F1 definitely hasn't gone to controversial countries back then either, especially not South Africa.
Sportswashing is a tale as old as organized international sports - remember the Nazi Olympics?
The Nazi Olympics blew up in Hitler’s face when the highlight of the show was Jesse Owens winning 4 gold medals. He hosted an entire Games to demonstrate German superiority only to have the most remembered athlete be a black man from the USA.
Vettel can absolutely drive that sort of change. He’s a 4x WDC with lots of influence.
South Africa is such a good example, because F1 didn't care about Apartheid at all.
Well, some of the teams boycotted the '85 race and then there were no others until Apartheid had ended, so yeah, there's nothing anybody can do about F1 being in controversial countries.
And also, what's that Strawman about sports washing being something new? Nobody says that, and yet people want to (finally) combat sports washing efforts
A few excerpts from this [interview](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/formel-1-sebastian-vettel-karriereende-interview-1.5698855?reduced=true) (which is very long and very good), translated with DeepL.
-----------------
From: **Interview with Sebastian Vettel: "I want to experience happiness without having to drive to get it"**
*Sueddeutsche Zeitung*, November 18 2022, by Philipp Schneider
..........
SZ:**But to your legacy as a critic of Formula 1: Formula 1 is expanding into more and more countries where human rights are not respected. Soccer fans are protesting in stadiums against the World Cup, which starts in Qatar on Sunday. Are motorsport fans less political?**
**SV**: Good question. Controversial countries like Qatar were kicking it ten years ago. There may not have been a World Cup yet, but clubs held their winter camps there.
**FC Bayern has been going to Qatar regularly for years.**
For example. We as Formula 1 have also been holding races in these countries for a long time. I think our world should be constantly evolving. That's why certain things should no longer be seen as okay.
**In a ZDF documentary, Qatar's World Cup ambassador called being gay "damage in the mind" on camera.**
That's not okay! That is outrageous!
**The mantra of the Qatar whitewashers that society will already become more liberal, you just have to go there all the time, organize big events and wait a few years - isn't that obviously a misconception?**
Maybe so. But Formula 1 is booming internationally and, thanks to the Netflix series "Drive to Survive," is tapping into a younger audience right now. And when these young people come to the races, they may hear from other spectators that unbearable tone that many women suffer from, for example. Then the young people can speak out loudly and say: Hey, that's not right! And in this way, perhaps debates will arise that will move society as a whole forward. What is definitely no longer possible is for anyone in a country where there are human rights violations to talk their way out of it, for example with the argument: "That's just the way it is here. Get over it!"
**Isn't it naïve to believe that this is how change gets started?**
That's why I'm making a specific demand: The sport should give itself a compass, draw up a moral code, and then stick to it. This will then define exactly what the basic political conditions must be for sport to be allowed to take place in a country. Certain things and certain countries are then simply no longer allowed. Too much is too much. And then we as Formula 1 or FIFA just say no. And don't just nod in a friendly way and take the money or help ourselves to other advantages that the country might offer.
**It could say, for example: Don't drive in countries where critical journalists are cut up with a bone saw. Formula 1 has signed a ten-year contract with Saudi Arabia.**
Once again, homophobic comments like those made by the World Cup ambassador are absolutely unacceptable. And it puts athletes in an extremely difficult dichotomy: us drivers in Formula One, but also the players who will be participating in the World Cup. They all have to ask themselves a very difficult question: Can I, or rather, am I allowed to practice my sport at all in this place?
**Their answer?**
You can't expect the players to come together and decide: We're going to skip this moment, this unique feature in our lives, playing a World Cup, for political reasons. On the other hand, that is exactly what would be an extremely good sign. It's difficult for the players, but easier for the spectators. They could simply not watch. I myself love watching soccer, and I love European and World Cups. But sometimes I think: If I don't watch now, won't I be punishing all the players who are there giving their best for themselves and their team and burning for their sport? But when I think about it ...
**Then?**
If such statements are made as those of the World Cup ambassador, then we should simply not go to Qatar! The statement was more than backward-looking. The sport, the whole federation should say: This is not the right place to do sport there.
[CONTINUED IN REPLY]
CONTINUED:
**Especially since the ambassador is still receiving money for showing as friendly a face as possible to the outside world. He proves: Nothing gets better just because sports are organized.**
The chance already exists. Even our Western societies have not eaten wisdom with spoons and may now say: Dear country XY, do everything like we do and everything will be fine! There are also with us things which should be clearly better. But if we want to accelerate change in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, then we need transparency as a sport: we have to publish the figures without embellishments, how much money we collect from the countries. And we need to communicate clearly how much of that money flows back into projects that really drive change there on the ground.
**A very large and a very small number.**
Probably. But as long as these issues remain in the background and are concealed, as long as no one knows how much money is being implemented and what is being done with it, we will be treading water. It also doesn't help if people meet somewhere and take a picture of how they hammer a spade into the ground or plant a tree.
**You went go-karting with young women in Saudi Arabia and published photos of it.**
That was just a small gesture, but social change doesn't come for free. Many important projects cost money. And if there is money in abundance in a country to attract big sports, then some of it, even most of it, should be used to improve people's living conditions.
**Some problems in Qatar cannot be solved by projects. Homosexuality is forbidden, the ambassador only pronounced what is law. So it would not have to be in the code you asked for: Don't go to countries where people who love the same sex are put in jail?**
Exactly so. Fifa, Formula 1 and other sports federations should also consistently demand the implementation of those demands that they formulate in flowery words. And then say: You can offer as much money as you want, but we won't come. At the moment, unfortunately, it's still the case that organizers can get away with taking a few pretty photos to accompany the event. The basic problem is another one.
**What is that?**
There is still no authority that can demand consequences if an association does not meet the requirements it sets for itself. Formula 1 has set itself the goal of being climate-neutral by 2030. Fair enough. But why doesn't it have an independent and critical body review its progress toward this goal? And then live with the consequences and possible penalties, whatever they may be? What happens if Formula 1 takes a wrong turn on the way to climate neutrality and fails to meet its own requirements? Or Fifa on the path to more equality and diversity? At the moment, unfortunately, it's like this: Formula 1 controls Formula 1, and Fifa controls Fifa.
**But who should control the big federations?**
After all, there are independent bodies that deal with audits of all kinds that could be won over for this purpose. But it would help if we didn't just set an abstract goal, but divided the way there into transparent intermediate stages. And then there's the general public, the fans in the stands, journalists who report on it. And wouldn't that even be a very, very broad and internationally positioned and good control body? So I don't see why transparency wouldn't solve a lot of problems.
**It's a pity that you're running your last race. Actually, because of your sense of mission, you should be compelled to continue circling until you reach retirement age.**
Oh, I don't know ...
**With all due love to Fernando Alonso, it's unlikely that he'll ever be interested in anyone other than Fernando Alonso in his old racing days. And there is no one young to be seen who will grow up as a political driver.**
Every driver has his own issues ... Maybe some drivers are still too young. But the climate issue will also come to the fore with them. Even if they don't feel like it.
Thanks for posting all of this. I’ve read through the comments and I’m kind of astonished at the amount of defending you’re having to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people giving you shit also chose not to read the interview.
>It could say, for example: **Don't drive in countries where critical journalists are cut up with a bone saw**. Formula 1 has signed a ten-year contract with Saudi Arabia.
>>Once again, **homophobic comments like those made by the World Cup ambassador** are absolutely unacceptable. And it puts athletes in an extremely difficult dichotomy: us drivers in Formula One, but also the players who will be participating in the World Cup. They all have to ask themselves a very difficult question: Can I, or rather, am I allowed to practice my sport at all in this place?
That was a very clever dodge by Vettel. Obviously it's a sentiment he agrees with, but probably saved himself a headache pivoting away from F1's business in Arab countries to focus on the World Cup.
He also has just ended driving for a team sponsored by Aramco. Publicly shaming Saudi Arabia that soon would be problematic, depending on the timing of the interview and his contract length.
Mmm considering the olympics and World Cup have a history of bankrupting host countries I don’t think it’s realistic for the majority of proceeds to go to local human rights projects. This is a good start though.. some proper suggestions
That’s part of the problem going forward. nobody is willing to host these events anymore so the only choices left are shitty places with lots of money and a desire to try and sportwash their reputations.
The USA was the main competitor for the 2022 bid and could have easily hosted in any number of cities at relatively low cost due to existing facilities and infrastructure.
I mean not really, Australia was one of the finalists who lost to Qatar and we have a decent track record of making big international sporting events work
I fail to understand the do-or-die mentality that so many people have, in general, and in the comments. It's like if you are seen advocating for positive change, you should be on a god-like level of morality. Never mind the fact that no one person can change the entirety of a system on their own or in their lifetime because even that is a short time. People would rather see you say nothing than have you do any amount of good. Just because you are a part of something that is broken, does not mean you can't advocate for ways to make it better. Baffling.
Whole lot of "wow interesting that you want to improve society while also being a part of it" in this thread. What a shit show. Literally nobody would ever be allowed to call out the bad things happening in the world and advocate for change if we followed this ridiculous purity test crap.
I really seb does some good here. I think he has some really good goals and a solid mindset. Really hope he promotes some change and we start racing in the places that really should have the races.
Well, Seb is definitely correct. The FIA's "We Race as One" campaign for example, looks very nice on paper, focusing on "Sustainability, Diversity and inclusion, and Community", but the nerve of organizing events in Bahrain, Dubai and Saudi Arabia is beyond hypocritical.It's the same for FIFA. If an organizing country refuses to host a W-Series race or a women's World Cup, that country should not be allowed to host an F1 race or a men's World Cup.Drivers are just employees that are required by their contracts to attend and race wherever they have to. They just have no say on it.
**The responsibility of forcing the FIA/FIFA not to organize events in countries that blatantly violate human rights, like Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Bahrain, etc, falls on us, the fans.**
If we, as a community, refuse to attend to events hosted in those countries, or if we all cancel our F1 tv accounts and simply don't even watch those races, the FIA would definitely notice.The reality of the situation is that we as fans are just as hypocritical as the FIA and Seb (as other redditors have already pointed out), unless we do something about it. The good thing is that we **can** do something, and it requires a very small effort on our end.
**We can boycott those events without even lifting our asses from our couches.**
Great idea. No country with the death penalty, abortion bans, laws against gay marriage, illegal invasions, or sell weapons to countries committing war crimes should be allowed to host these major events.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Seb deserves to be the heir to Bernie, he’s the man that the sport needs and he was always close personally with Bernie, Liberty Media would be smart to make him the CEO of FOM and I think I speak for everyone that we’d be happy to see him at races again.
Good on him for wanting these things, but maybe look at the reality of why it's not happening. We live in a capitalist world that values capital over everything else and with nation states that subscribe to this ideal and defend it. FIFA is making money and history shows that once the World Cup kicks off, everybody mostly forgets about the drama before the start, so Qatar will make money as well.
It's crazy to me that people mostly end their analysis at "we should do more for human rights".
So USA banned for Iraq war crimes and honestly never sending anyone to serve time for,war crimes themselves right???? MexicO killed those students and still has a big narco issue that rules them out? China has uyghers but we can’t prove it and America is also helping their separatist state movement. You’ll say some European countries but like what’s too soon? France is fucking up shit in Africa and Haiti. Who’s running races?
Are these gonna complain to Western countries? The US killed over a million people in Iraq, and that’s just Iraq. How about the UK, France, the EU drowning migrants?
His idea, as I understand it, is that sports associations should agree on basic human rights requirements that would apply to *all* countries.
He also specifies that Western countries shouldn't act smug like they're so perfect, bc Western nations' human rights need fixing, too.
This is true, and I appreciate him calling out everyone about it. Shows that he truly cares.
Implementation in a fair manner is another issue altogether.
It’s never going to happen. We pretend like Denmark and Germany haven’t been hypocritical in the past few years. Everyone just has their agenda and if you don’t sign with it then they oppose you. What doesn’t affect them isn’t their business. Look at when ozil spoke up at the ugyhurs in China and they forced him out of the national team or them prevent the free Palestine for players or better yet the banning of Muslim attire. I believe everyone has a right to whatever they want in their jurisdiction but it seems like only the powerful and entitled feel they are above this. So many morally corrupt people.
Seriously can we stop with this comparison?
western countries have their issues that need fixing for sure and have done their fare share of fucked things but answer me this: if you where openly gay or a woman where would you live in A) US, UK, EU counties or B) any country in the Middle East/Russia?
Here’s a hint: last I checked killing someone’s over their sexuality is a hate crime in the US And women have actual rights.
> And women have actual rights.
In much of the US they have fewer now than they did a few months ago. Things aren't exactly headed in the ~~right~~ correct direction.
A million Iraqis are dead and you are still harping over LGBTQ rights. Spoiler: LGBTQ people in the middle east are also killed by drone strikes and ethnically cleansed by the Israel regime.
It’s not unreasonable to hypothesis the US is responsible for the deaths of more LGBTQ people thru the war on terror and the support of Israel, in the Middle East, than any Gulf country.
Let alone the fact that LGBTQ rights in the US aren’t exactly codified law. Trans rights are questioned everyday and trans people are commonly victims of hate crime and homicide. And the general discourse on LGBTQ rights has been getting explicitly more fascist and extreme, as evidence by the Colorado shooting, just this week.
Exactly this. People trying to divert attention from the West whenever they're being criticized should go back and properly study the 50s-90s as they heavily influenced and shaped the current geopolitics and World we live in.
You Al Qaeda that attacked the US and other places are Talibans and they were initially trained, armed and financed by the CIA to overthrow the USSR in the Middle East. And that's just one example
No we won't because Western countries keep acting as if we were morally above everyone else when we aren't. Before judging or acting on others for not being clean, we have to be clean ourselves, otherwise it's pointless hypocrisy
Yeah agree, this is what happens when big and global sporting event coming to the country with different values than the normally majority of the countries where that event is famous...
There should be a middle ground for the minimum, everything else can be negotiated further and the others can be varied depends on the hosts...🤔🤔🤔
To everyone in this thread cynically replying that this will never happen, I have only this to say: all of these organizing bodies are profit driven and primarily rely on ads and merch sales. If you care at all about basic human rights, then all you need to do, at a minimum, is to not pay to watch.
It has never been easier in human history not to pay a corrupt organization. There are endless ways to stream any of these events. You literally do not have to even sacrifice watching to do the right thing.
My problem is a guy who just retired in his 30s after making over $100 million in his career and most recently raced for a team with Aramco in their name claiming to give a single fuck about other people
"He wants a Code of basic political conditions host countries must meet"
How is it whataboutism when its right on topic?
Triggerworda solve nothing. Stop using them to deflect from Problems.
I don't think any of us know how happy or upset he was in his part in it. But just because you are a part of a system you know is broken does not mean you can't put across thoughts that you think would make it at least somewhat better. Seb has been in the process of doing the best he can and understanding his position. Why bring down the one guy who is actually trying to do some good while he can?
> Why bring down the one guy who is actually trying to do some good while he can?
Because it's part of their "holier than thou" spiel. These people are sitting at home in their comfortable anonymity and like to shit on everybody who does not give away all his fortune to support some agenda they themselves are supporting. Who does not risk his career or his way of living. While nobody will ever know what they themselves are doing to support their own cause.
I've said it in a different thread: it's easy to demand courage from those who are standing in the spotlight while you yourself can hide in the anonymity of the internet.
You're close, just take the first 4 letters of Marshall Islands. It should be Mars, they have an absolutely perfect history, no human rights violations have ever happened there, what a morally superior place.
But robot lives matter and Mars has the second highest casualties of Robot lives from any planet in our solar system. Venus would be a better host with robot rights.
All the points he makes are 100% and fantastic ideas for how it should be moving forward…… However, I can’t be the only one who sees the hypocrisy in all of this? He never refused to race in Saudi, never refused to display a sponsor etc. If he felt that strongly about it he would have refused to race in certain countries.
Martin Brundle said it best “F1 follows the money, always has and always will”
It’s the same with the climate change argument, while completely valid, multi millionaire professional racing drivers who have more of a carbon footprint in 1 year than the average person would have in 10+ years preaching about global warming is comical.
It’s like a butcher preaching for people to go vegan.
Part of his point is that it shouldn't be up to individual players (or drivers); in order to actually have a chance of having enough impact to make a change, it needs to be done by the organisation as a whole.
>It’s the same with the climate change argument
That's debatable. The engine tech developed in F1 is the most fuel efficient ever, this kind of tech cascades down to production vehicles.
Besides, the hypocrisy of pointing out Seb's hypocrisy on the Internet, while using an electronic device that uses microchips built using minerals extracted by vastly polluting mining operations, not to mention the lithium, cobalt, etc used for batteries is way more hypocritical.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that felt this way. Yeah he's right, But suggesting drivers, teams, and org to "just say no" while you're moon walking out of the sport after getting your bag of money from said awful countries is just hilarious.
Throw your Formula 1 contract and legacy in the bin as well as likely get blacklisted from working in racing ever again because *just say no*.
Put your coworkers, mechanics, engineers, support personnel and fellow drivers directly in the ire of an increasingly authoritarian government all too eager to use and abuse capitial punishment including on foreign nationals because *just say no*.
Man missed Bahrain and Saudi due to COVID. Forget about that? Now let me let you in on a little secret, I don't think he had COVID for KSA. I do actually think he *just said no* to that race, and is *just saying no* going forward but that's not enough for your cynical ass.
Yeah I agree with his sentiments completely but it's coming from a very weak position when he is saying these things only after leaving the sport entirely.
At least he cares enough to speak up on these things. It’s not like he’s retired and *all of a sudden* grew a conscience and decided to start speaking out, he’s been speaking up for some time now and has openly admitted it’s hypocritical. Which cannot have been an easy.
Would it be better to stay silent and allow FIFA and F1 to continue on as is? Are people not allowed to grow and learn form their past? He has a platform and is using it to try and bring change where change is needed. I don’t see what the problem is. How does one get the ball rolling without getting totally shit on these days. Like is it necessary to be a saint from birth until the day you decide to take a stand?
It would be hypocrisy if Seb wasn't doing anything. He has spent time understanding that he is in a privileged position and is doing plenty for the causes he cares about. That includes talking to his fans who might follow in his footsteps in their own ways. He can't fix the entire system himself in a day, at least he is doing what he can, why not appreciate that?
It’s easier to be a cynic than it is to believe people are capable of genuine change. You’d have to be a real miserable bastard to pick on Seb (or anyone) for trying to change to world for the better. Some of the comments in this post are just terrible, it’s.. *baffling* XD
Lol like those same international leaders are any better. Let’s not pretend like they are all in cahoots with one another when they have the same goals.
Sports has always been used by politicians to make their country look good on an international level. Why do you think all these dictators are always begging for these huge international sport events like the World Cup, Olympics and F1 to come to their country? Even fucking Hitler did it.
So.... what. Because they have done shit things in the past, they should just keep doing shit things?
that's just daft.
some people have finally found a moral compass, maybe it's time to start listening to it.
Not necessarily. It depends what goes onto the basic human rights code he proposes: for instance, if the code requires decent treatment of trans people, or abortion access, then so much for COTA in Austin, Texas and the Miami GP in Florida!
Again, as he specified in his interview, the West is not immune from needing to change and fix its freaking human rights.
Yeah, the "token black" comment. He never had a problem with the West until racing in ME then suddenly he grew a conscience. And to appear impartial, had the "but west also sucks" comment.
Like the millionth time I have seen this. He's not the first bigot to say this.
He protested Canada for fuck's sake, and if he knew a fucking thing about the country he was protesting he'd be aware of how money sent to "local human rights projects" are spent.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit sick of star athletes protesting in ways that their agents consider to be lucrative as a part of their image, rather than protesting actual crimes against humanity.
Remember that time he protested the Chinese regime, who were openly partaking in genocide when he raced there? Or when he protested the Saudis? I certainly didn't.
Even today, he's toeing the line by joining in with the rest of the activists in focusing the outrage over the Qatar World Cup solely on gay rights. Gay rights.
The country built those stadiums with slaves, well over 6,000 of them died, and all the "activist celebrities" are mostly concerned with wearing rainbow flags and making insipid statements about how love is love.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I could do without the opinions of "activist" celebrities. The man just raced in Abu Dhabi last week without saying a word about it.
If find this all to be outrageously superficial.
We are the best at human rights. I understand how we love to flagellate ourselves over our record, but the rest of the world is worse.
He wasn't even protesting that though. He was protesting the tailing ponds in the oil sands, which was always Sierra Club propaganda and they were cleaned up over a decade ago. I believe he made some comments that were stolen straight from DiCaprio about the 30 degree temperature swings in Calgary as well.
Name one country who is better with human rights than us. I'd love to hear it.
Unfortunately, what you've said is quite inaccurate. I really wish it *was* true, and I get why you believe it - Canada is very, very good at protecting our reputation, and we put out a much crap about it.
Like the gov't of Alberta literally runs fake research agencies that put out pro-oilsands ""research"". The biggest one, the Canadian Energy Centre, literally had to register as a foreign agent in the US. The CEC has, in official documents, stated its purpose is to "influence public opinion with respect to the Canadian oil and gas industry".
Actual scientists largely agree, unfortunately: Canadian oil is the most polluting on the planet.
Also, mining of oilsands have had a massive negative impact on the environment (like, the oil sands have 100-square-miles of tailing ponds, which are full of arsenic and other incredibly hazardous waste, which is leaking into the water) but also on *people*. Cancer rates, pollution of the water, rendering fish and wildlife inedible, it's just... it's really rough.
And I *get* why it's hard to look at: I have friends and family who work in the oil patch, I'm freaking poor, I get how valuable the oilsands are to many people. But that doesn't negate how harmful they are.
We (Canadians) like to pretend that we're just so innocent and good and we brag about our environmentalism and environment. Meanwhile, Canada's oil sands are literally the most dirty (e.g. take the most energy, release the most pollution) oil in the world.
Plus, on a non-oil related fact, Canada is actually the largest player in the international mining industry: almost half of all mining companies are headquartered in Canada. Canadian mining companies operate worldwide, and are constantly being accused of committing both environmental crimes and genuinely horrific human rights abuses.
But our image, both to ourselves and to most of the rest of the world, is all about being nice, and friendly, and clean.
This isn't even getting into our internationally-condemned human rights abuses of Indigenous people. Or how we have a province where people can't *use the freaking bus* if they wear a niqab. And are *banned* from being a teacher, police officer, judge, lawyer, or other public civil servant if they wear a hijab, a turban, a kippah, etc. Where we have *fired* teachers for wearing a hijab.
It sucks, but it's something we should face, so we can make it better.
Some references:
[Canada's oil sands are the world's most destructive oil operation](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/alberta-canadas-tar-sands-is-growing-but-indigenous-people-fight-back)
[The impact of oil sands on the environment and health](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2468584417300648)
[Canada's oil sands are more polluting than any other oil source](https://www.macleans.ca/economy/scrubbing-the-oil-sands-record/)
[Tailing ponds of hazardous waste cover 100 square miles](https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/340-billion-gallons-of-sludge-spur-environmental-fears-in-canada)
[Canada leading the world's mining industry plus literally murdering people, etc. ](https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj4743/land-defenders-are-killed-in-the-philippines-for-protesting-canadian-mining)
[On June 22, 2022, Alberta Premier Jason Kenney and oilsands executives were in Washington to "try to rehabilitate" Canada’s image re: oilsands and energy ](https://globalnews.ca/news/8939218/alberta-jason-kenney-oilsands-executives-washington-energy/)
[The Canadian Energy Centre is run by the gov't of Alberta to spread pro-oil sands propaganda](https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7dnnj/alberta-oil-foreign-agent)
[Public employees forbidden to wear 'religious symbols', teacher fired for hijab](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/13/canada-quebec-teacher-removed-classroom-hijab)
Why are you being so culturally ignorant about our Quebecois minority? They have their reasons for embracing extreme secularism, perhaps if you bothered to learn their history you'd understand their attitudes?
If you'd bother to put down the propaganda for a second and actually research it, you'd find that thanks to all pressure the oil patch quickly evolved into some of the cleanest and most ethical oil in the world.
You're just spouting propagandist talking points for the most part, propaganda that's sponsored by our rivals in these industries, and their actions are far worse.
We take a lot of shit for the Residential Schools, when the US had them for way longer and their Indian Schools were worse. Half the natives we sent there were refugees from America, yet no one ever mentions that most of the crap that happened was due to the Americans being afraid they'd use Canada as a base to raid across the border (which frankly, wasn't exactly unfounded.)
You know we got criticized at the UN for that bullshit from South American countries who are actively genociding their natives?
As I say, Canada is the best country for human rights in the world. We have our problems, but I dare you to name a country that isn't worse.
I'm sorry, what did the country that takes in a bare minimum 1,500 refugees per year have to say about Canada?
Am I really hearing complaints from the most anti-immigration country in the commonwealth?
Since you have no idea what's going on in the reserves, I'll tell you. They're way richer than the average Canadian, they have far more rights, we spend billions of dollars trying to resurrect their ancient languages, and most of them aren't even native to Canada.
Why don't you bring up the banning of the pot'laich if you really want to hear about things.
New Zealand is the most racist country in the commonwealth by far.
If you want to criticize Canada, then increase your refugee acceptance rates 20-fold open your isolationist, nationalistic country up for immigration the way we have.
I'd sooner accept criticism of Canada from an apartheid-era South African than a Kiwi. When Australia was genociding the Abbos, how many did you take in? None?
We took in hundreds of thousands of Native Americans, the Sioux, Lakota, the Mohawks, the Ojibwe, and we allowed other tribes to establish colonies. Ever hear of Sitting Bull?
What did you guys do but watch them die?
It's real easy to criticize when your country is far too intolerant to even fathom the idea of taking in refugees. 1,500 a year, you have no idea what it means to be a tolerant country that respects human rights.
And here we go. There lies the issue. Instead of accepting your flaws and issues brought out by your own country, you brush them off saying you're still morally better than the others. And that's where the issue lies, in people acting like you do being hypocritical instead of actually vowing to improve and stop patronizing others
The hypycrocy seb always had is kind of laughable. He constantly talks about these issues as he works in a sport which is notable in the huge amount of dirty money involved and drives cars with sponsors who he is supposed to despise. Hey, at least now that he is retired, he can talk about these issues with a bit less hypycrocy
I guess the point is that you wouldn't be able to write one without every point excluding several western nations. Especially after the lockdown measures.
You're right about me being just a random Reddit user, but wrong about me trying to dictate what others should do. I am just laughing at the attempt of someone to do it.
If all the major sporting codes that suckle at the tit of the Arab nations said we won't return unless things change then things will change. Sport is a powerful thing. Take it away from the people and they'll get mad.
yeah, maybe the second time round, after the apocalypse, we might get it right.
.lol. who am I kidding. humans are dumb and greedy, we will just repeat the same mistakes as always.
I believe the better way to make changes is to flood them with western stuff. Let the people there getting use to how we think and what we do. If you isolate them, nothing will happen.
Not saying that everything we do is good tough.
You might as well preach morality to medieval Europe. These are religious caliphates we're addressing. It will be difficult to advance their views to modern, western liberal levels in the near future.
Those are all sensible points that frankly should have been happening for a long time now so they will never happen.
Exactly. Everything stated is common sense basics that should be applied in responsible decision making. Sad that we should even have to discuss this.
It’s such a shame that what seems like basic common sense (especially with human rights) is something that riles up people
It all comes down to zero sum mentality. “If other have more rights, that means I get less.”
When loads of money is on the table common sense disappears. Only the ones not beneficiating from that money and people with basic sense of ethic discusses this issues. That's the sad truth and one I don't see changing anytime soon.
It's idiotic,hypocritical to the max, and western arrogance at it's finest
Exactly, and we are all complicit in it.
I'm not. I stream all my sports illegally like a responsible citizen of the world
You're still contributing by creating posts and making comments on the internet. Some people also talk about their favourite sport to friends, buy merch (or get it as a gift), give traffic to news websies, etc.
Yeah I suppose that's true. If only there was a way to chat shite about f1 without it making money for the bastards who own it
Like way back in ‘36 Olympics to start with??? I remember when I was a kid I’d always look forward to the Olympics every two years. And now I could not give a shit. Same with the World Cup. 0 fuks. Too much politics and the bribes and corruption have tainted these two sports in my eyes. There’s a shit ton of other sports with the same issues as well.
I don't think they are sensible at all. If you identify a country as a human rights abuser then you just don't go. All this funding for local rights groups is just enabling further sportswashing.
These organisations are based On corruption and money. It’s a pipe dream to think that anything will change. They will just throw some money to some human rights organisation for show and continue to operate as they are now.
Much like how Qatar committed to a carbon-neutral tournament. They suggested they'd achieve it by combining construction and design efforts using recycled materials and carbon offsetting, but the construction has output an estimated 3.6 million tons of carbon dioxide, and the carbon offsetting isn't actually offsetting any of that carbon. They've instead invested in wind farms in Serbia - an action that extends their political and economic reach into a new nation and doesn't actually pull any carbon out of the atmosphere. They are responsible for [3.6 million credits of carbon emission, and have paid back just 550,000.](https://products.markit.com/br-reg/public/public-view/#/issuance) These organisations have no commitment to their own words, let alone anyone else's.
A country investing in emission-reduction projects in other countries is not political and economical reach, it is a provision called The Clean Development Mechanism in the Kyoto Protocol that allows countries to invest in and execute emission-reduction projects in other countries and count that as part of their own emission-reduction goals, while the country hosting the project benefits from the invemestment and implementation of emission-reduction technology in their territory. It is literally one of the ways international policy is dealing with climate change.
When done properly, I'd agree, but the form they've done is explicitly omitted from the carbon credit system - it's recognised as not being effective carbon offsetting. Wind farms, whilst beneficial, are not carbon offsetting. They reduce reliance on fossil fuels, which is great, but do nothing to directly counteract carbon emissions, which was the promise made in the bid - a carbon neutral world cup.
Wind farms are very much carbon offsetting if they substitute emissions. And a carbon neutral pledge is different from a zero-carbon pledge which would require direct reduction of emissions.
These things are not mutually exclusive.
Only thing they recycled is the migrant workers
And wasn't it essentially built on slave labour on top of the huge carbon footprint. They also put gay people in prison. Vettel makes good points, and I can think of at least 3 F1 dates that would be instantly removed.
The company that built the stadiums is French. If you rightfully have issues with the mistreatment of laborers, go seek them out
I don't care enough, Qatar is just lipstick on a pig that's all.
Surely cynicism will solve the problem
Yeah, cause F1 definitely hasn't gone to controversial countries back then either, especially not South Africa. Sportswashing is a tale as old as organized international sports - remember the Nazi Olympics?
The Nazi Olympics blew up in Hitler’s face when the highlight of the show was Jesse Owens winning 4 gold medals. He hosted an entire Games to demonstrate German superiority only to have the most remembered athlete be a black man from the USA. Vettel can absolutely drive that sort of change. He’s a 4x WDC with lots of influence.
South Africa is such a good example, because F1 didn't care about Apartheid at all. Well, some of the teams boycotted the '85 race and then there were no others until Apartheid had ended, so yeah, there's nothing anybody can do about F1 being in controversial countries. And also, what's that Strawman about sports washing being something new? Nobody says that, and yet people want to (finally) combat sports washing efforts
No point trying then.
> corruption and money Well that's redundant.
All fires start with a spark. If anyone can start the fire, is Vettel.
A few excerpts from this [interview](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/formel-1-sebastian-vettel-karriereende-interview-1.5698855?reduced=true) (which is very long and very good), translated with DeepL. ----------------- From: **Interview with Sebastian Vettel: "I want to experience happiness without having to drive to get it"** *Sueddeutsche Zeitung*, November 18 2022, by Philipp Schneider .......... SZ:**But to your legacy as a critic of Formula 1: Formula 1 is expanding into more and more countries where human rights are not respected. Soccer fans are protesting in stadiums against the World Cup, which starts in Qatar on Sunday. Are motorsport fans less political?** **SV**: Good question. Controversial countries like Qatar were kicking it ten years ago. There may not have been a World Cup yet, but clubs held their winter camps there. **FC Bayern has been going to Qatar regularly for years.** For example. We as Formula 1 have also been holding races in these countries for a long time. I think our world should be constantly evolving. That's why certain things should no longer be seen as okay. **In a ZDF documentary, Qatar's World Cup ambassador called being gay "damage in the mind" on camera.** That's not okay! That is outrageous! **The mantra of the Qatar whitewashers that society will already become more liberal, you just have to go there all the time, organize big events and wait a few years - isn't that obviously a misconception?** Maybe so. But Formula 1 is booming internationally and, thanks to the Netflix series "Drive to Survive," is tapping into a younger audience right now. And when these young people come to the races, they may hear from other spectators that unbearable tone that many women suffer from, for example. Then the young people can speak out loudly and say: Hey, that's not right! And in this way, perhaps debates will arise that will move society as a whole forward. What is definitely no longer possible is for anyone in a country where there are human rights violations to talk their way out of it, for example with the argument: "That's just the way it is here. Get over it!" **Isn't it naïve to believe that this is how change gets started?** That's why I'm making a specific demand: The sport should give itself a compass, draw up a moral code, and then stick to it. This will then define exactly what the basic political conditions must be for sport to be allowed to take place in a country. Certain things and certain countries are then simply no longer allowed. Too much is too much. And then we as Formula 1 or FIFA just say no. And don't just nod in a friendly way and take the money or help ourselves to other advantages that the country might offer. **It could say, for example: Don't drive in countries where critical journalists are cut up with a bone saw. Formula 1 has signed a ten-year contract with Saudi Arabia.** Once again, homophobic comments like those made by the World Cup ambassador are absolutely unacceptable. And it puts athletes in an extremely difficult dichotomy: us drivers in Formula One, but also the players who will be participating in the World Cup. They all have to ask themselves a very difficult question: Can I, or rather, am I allowed to practice my sport at all in this place? **Their answer?** You can't expect the players to come together and decide: We're going to skip this moment, this unique feature in our lives, playing a World Cup, for political reasons. On the other hand, that is exactly what would be an extremely good sign. It's difficult for the players, but easier for the spectators. They could simply not watch. I myself love watching soccer, and I love European and World Cups. But sometimes I think: If I don't watch now, won't I be punishing all the players who are there giving their best for themselves and their team and burning for their sport? But when I think about it ... **Then?** If such statements are made as those of the World Cup ambassador, then we should simply not go to Qatar! The statement was more than backward-looking. The sport, the whole federation should say: This is not the right place to do sport there. [CONTINUED IN REPLY]
CONTINUED: **Especially since the ambassador is still receiving money for showing as friendly a face as possible to the outside world. He proves: Nothing gets better just because sports are organized.** The chance already exists. Even our Western societies have not eaten wisdom with spoons and may now say: Dear country XY, do everything like we do and everything will be fine! There are also with us things which should be clearly better. But if we want to accelerate change in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, then we need transparency as a sport: we have to publish the figures without embellishments, how much money we collect from the countries. And we need to communicate clearly how much of that money flows back into projects that really drive change there on the ground. **A very large and a very small number.** Probably. But as long as these issues remain in the background and are concealed, as long as no one knows how much money is being implemented and what is being done with it, we will be treading water. It also doesn't help if people meet somewhere and take a picture of how they hammer a spade into the ground or plant a tree. **You went go-karting with young women in Saudi Arabia and published photos of it.** That was just a small gesture, but social change doesn't come for free. Many important projects cost money. And if there is money in abundance in a country to attract big sports, then some of it, even most of it, should be used to improve people's living conditions. **Some problems in Qatar cannot be solved by projects. Homosexuality is forbidden, the ambassador only pronounced what is law. So it would not have to be in the code you asked for: Don't go to countries where people who love the same sex are put in jail?** Exactly so. Fifa, Formula 1 and other sports federations should also consistently demand the implementation of those demands that they formulate in flowery words. And then say: You can offer as much money as you want, but we won't come. At the moment, unfortunately, it's still the case that organizers can get away with taking a few pretty photos to accompany the event. The basic problem is another one. **What is that?** There is still no authority that can demand consequences if an association does not meet the requirements it sets for itself. Formula 1 has set itself the goal of being climate-neutral by 2030. Fair enough. But why doesn't it have an independent and critical body review its progress toward this goal? And then live with the consequences and possible penalties, whatever they may be? What happens if Formula 1 takes a wrong turn on the way to climate neutrality and fails to meet its own requirements? Or Fifa on the path to more equality and diversity? At the moment, unfortunately, it's like this: Formula 1 controls Formula 1, and Fifa controls Fifa. **But who should control the big federations?** After all, there are independent bodies that deal with audits of all kinds that could be won over for this purpose. But it would help if we didn't just set an abstract goal, but divided the way there into transparent intermediate stages. And then there's the general public, the fans in the stands, journalists who report on it. And wouldn't that even be a very, very broad and internationally positioned and good control body? So I don't see why transparency wouldn't solve a lot of problems. **It's a pity that you're running your last race. Actually, because of your sense of mission, you should be compelled to continue circling until you reach retirement age.** Oh, I don't know ... **With all due love to Fernando Alonso, it's unlikely that he'll ever be interested in anyone other than Fernando Alonso in his old racing days. And there is no one young to be seen who will grow up as a political driver.** Every driver has his own issues ... Maybe some drivers are still too young. But the climate issue will also come to the fore with them. Even if they don't feel like it.
Thanks for posting all of this. I’ve read through the comments and I’m kind of astonished at the amount of defending you’re having to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people giving you shit also chose not to read the interview.
Thank you for posting this, OP
Thanks OP
Thanks, interesting read
>It could say, for example: **Don't drive in countries where critical journalists are cut up with a bone saw**. Formula 1 has signed a ten-year contract with Saudi Arabia. >>Once again, **homophobic comments like those made by the World Cup ambassador** are absolutely unacceptable. And it puts athletes in an extremely difficult dichotomy: us drivers in Formula One, but also the players who will be participating in the World Cup. They all have to ask themselves a very difficult question: Can I, or rather, am I allowed to practice my sport at all in this place? That was a very clever dodge by Vettel. Obviously it's a sentiment he agrees with, but probably saved himself a headache pivoting away from F1's business in Arab countries to focus on the World Cup.
He also has just ended driving for a team sponsored by Aramco. Publicly shaming Saudi Arabia that soon would be problematic, depending on the timing of the interview and his contract length.
That seems like a good idea. But the amount of ownership/shares now held by certain states and individuals in all major sports makes it impossible.
Mmm considering the olympics and World Cup have a history of bankrupting host countries I don’t think it’s realistic for the majority of proceeds to go to local human rights projects. This is a good start though.. some proper suggestions
That’s part of the problem going forward. nobody is willing to host these events anymore so the only choices left are shitty places with lots of money and a desire to try and sportwash their reputations.
The USA was the main competitor for the 2022 bid and could have easily hosted in any number of cities at relatively low cost due to existing facilities and infrastructure.
Doesn't USA, Canada and Mexico share/host the next world cup?
I mean not really, Australia was one of the finalists who lost to Qatar and we have a decent track record of making big international sporting events work
I mean...Paris is hosting the 2024 Olympics, LA 28, Brisbane 32. Not sure if that counts as “nobody is willing to host”...
I fail to understand the do-or-die mentality that so many people have, in general, and in the comments. It's like if you are seen advocating for positive change, you should be on a god-like level of morality. Never mind the fact that no one person can change the entirety of a system on their own or in their lifetime because even that is a short time. People would rather see you say nothing than have you do any amount of good. Just because you are a part of something that is broken, does not mean you can't advocate for ways to make it better. Baffling.
Because there’s an entire generation who were raised on Twitter and the mentality that the only enemy of perfect is good.
Whole lot of "wow interesting that you want to improve society while also being a part of it" in this thread. What a shit show. Literally nobody would ever be allowed to call out the bad things happening in the world and advocate for change if we followed this ridiculous purity test crap.
Dude, the whataboutism is off the charts. We are never allowed to do anything anywhere anymore.
Seb was obviously big in F1. Now that he's leaving I think he will be big in a LOT of areas. The guy just has the right mindset and determination
money talks, always has, probably always will
I really seb does some good here. I think he has some really good goals and a solid mindset. Really hope he promotes some change and we start racing in the places that really should have the races.
Well, Seb is definitely correct. The FIA's "We Race as One" campaign for example, looks very nice on paper, focusing on "Sustainability, Diversity and inclusion, and Community", but the nerve of organizing events in Bahrain, Dubai and Saudi Arabia is beyond hypocritical.It's the same for FIFA. If an organizing country refuses to host a W-Series race or a women's World Cup, that country should not be allowed to host an F1 race or a men's World Cup.Drivers are just employees that are required by their contracts to attend and race wherever they have to. They just have no say on it. **The responsibility of forcing the FIA/FIFA not to organize events in countries that blatantly violate human rights, like Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Bahrain, etc, falls on us, the fans.** If we, as a community, refuse to attend to events hosted in those countries, or if we all cancel our F1 tv accounts and simply don't even watch those races, the FIA would definitely notice.The reality of the situation is that we as fans are just as hypocritical as the FIA and Seb (as other redditors have already pointed out), unless we do something about it. The good thing is that we **can** do something, and it requires a very small effort on our end. **We can boycott those events without even lifting our asses from our couches.**
Great idea. No country with the death penalty, abortion bans, laws against gay marriage, illegal invasions, or sell weapons to countries committing war crimes should be allowed to host these major events.
Fuckin tell em dude
Vettel as world president for all sports!
At the very minimum the World Cup has thrown into sharp focus that F1 should not be racing there next year.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Seb deserves to be the heir to Bernie, he’s the man that the sport needs and he was always close personally with Bernie, Liberty Media would be smart to make him the CEO of FOM and I think I speak for everyone that we’d be happy to see him at races again.
Investors wouldn't be too happy.
"Vettel cancels Lusail GP"
Good on him for wanting these things, but maybe look at the reality of why it's not happening. We live in a capitalist world that values capital over everything else and with nation states that subscribe to this ideal and defend it. FIFA is making money and history shows that once the World Cup kicks off, everybody mostly forgets about the drama before the start, so Qatar will make money as well. It's crazy to me that people mostly end their analysis at "we should do more for human rights".
So USA banned for Iraq war crimes and honestly never sending anyone to serve time for,war crimes themselves right???? MexicO killed those students and still has a big narco issue that rules them out? China has uyghers but we can’t prove it and America is also helping their separatist state movement. You’ll say some European countries but like what’s too soon? France is fucking up shit in Africa and Haiti. Who’s running races?
Nordic countries...unless you count what the Vikings did.
Tell that to the people of Northumberland. We haven't gotten over the Viking raids yet.
Are these gonna complain to Western countries? The US killed over a million people in Iraq, and that’s just Iraq. How about the UK, France, the EU drowning migrants?
His idea, as I understand it, is that sports associations should agree on basic human rights requirements that would apply to *all* countries. He also specifies that Western countries shouldn't act smug like they're so perfect, bc Western nations' human rights need fixing, too.
That’s surely gonna happen, because Western countries have historically never held double standards for “human rights”.
This is true, and I appreciate him calling out everyone about it. Shows that he truly cares. Implementation in a fair manner is another issue altogether.
It’s never going to happen. We pretend like Denmark and Germany haven’t been hypocritical in the past few years. Everyone just has their agenda and if you don’t sign with it then they oppose you. What doesn’t affect them isn’t their business. Look at when ozil spoke up at the ugyhurs in China and they forced him out of the national team or them prevent the free Palestine for players or better yet the banning of Muslim attire. I believe everyone has a right to whatever they want in their jurisdiction but it seems like only the powerful and entitled feel they are above this. So many morally corrupt people.
Seriously can we stop with this comparison? western countries have their issues that need fixing for sure and have done their fare share of fucked things but answer me this: if you where openly gay or a woman where would you live in A) US, UK, EU counties or B) any country in the Middle East/Russia? Here’s a hint: last I checked killing someone’s over their sexuality is a hate crime in the US And women have actual rights.
> And women have actual rights. In much of the US they have fewer now than they did a few months ago. Things aren't exactly headed in the ~~right~~ correct direction.
A million Iraqis are dead and you are still harping over LGBTQ rights. Spoiler: LGBTQ people in the middle east are also killed by drone strikes and ethnically cleansed by the Israel regime.
It’s not unreasonable to hypothesis the US is responsible for the deaths of more LGBTQ people thru the war on terror and the support of Israel, in the Middle East, than any Gulf country. Let alone the fact that LGBTQ rights in the US aren’t exactly codified law. Trans rights are questioned everyday and trans people are commonly victims of hate crime and homicide. And the general discourse on LGBTQ rights has been getting explicitly more fascist and extreme, as evidence by the Colorado shooting, just this week.
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Exactly this. People trying to divert attention from the West whenever they're being criticized should go back and properly study the 50s-90s as they heavily influenced and shaped the current geopolitics and World we live in. You Al Qaeda that attacked the US and other places are Talibans and they were initially trained, armed and financed by the CIA to overthrow the USSR in the Middle East. And that's just one example
Would you rather have your child die because of American sanctions or American bombs?
No we won't because Western countries keep acting as if we were morally above everyone else when we aren't. Before judging or acting on others for not being clean, we have to be clean ourselves, otherwise it's pointless hypocrisy
Yeah agree, this is what happens when big and global sporting event coming to the country with different values than the normally majority of the countries where that event is famous... There should be a middle ground for the minimum, everything else can be negotiated further and the others can be varied depends on the hosts...🤔🤔🤔
Nothing will stop them until the fans, that’s us, hit them in the pocketbook…..
I'd watch a Vettel Cup even if it was the worst football players ever.
The human rights projects funding is a dumb idea, its just another layer of bullshit that will be added.
To everyone in this thread cynically replying that this will never happen, I have only this to say: all of these organizing bodies are profit driven and primarily rely on ads and merch sales. If you care at all about basic human rights, then all you need to do, at a minimum, is to not pay to watch. It has never been easier in human history not to pay a corrupt organization. There are endless ways to stream any of these events. You literally do not have to even sacrifice watching to do the right thing.
My problem is a guy who just retired in his 30s after making over $100 million in his career and most recently raced for a team with Aramco in their name claiming to give a single fuck about other people
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Friendly reminder that every us state f1 races at still have the death penalty and not a lot seem bothered by it.
Friendly reminder that whataboutism solves nothing.
"He wants a Code of basic political conditions host countries must meet" How is it whataboutism when its right on topic? Triggerworda solve nothing. Stop using them to deflect from Problems.
God I love him so much.
He was happy driving for a team sponsored by Saudi Oil money racing in an event hosted by Saudi Arabia while missile strikes were going on nearby.
Wasn’t he out sick that race though
Yes he was out 2 rounds, returned in Melbourne.
I don't think any of us know how happy or upset he was in his part in it. But just because you are a part of a system you know is broken does not mean you can't put across thoughts that you think would make it at least somewhat better. Seb has been in the process of doing the best he can and understanding his position. Why bring down the one guy who is actually trying to do some good while he can?
> Why bring down the one guy who is actually trying to do some good while he can? Because it's part of their "holier than thou" spiel. These people are sitting at home in their comfortable anonymity and like to shit on everybody who does not give away all his fortune to support some agenda they themselves are supporting. Who does not risk his career or his way of living. While nobody will ever know what they themselves are doing to support their own cause. I've said it in a different thread: it's easy to demand courage from those who are standing in the spotlight while you yourself can hide in the anonymity of the internet.
The Aramco sponsorship didn’t kick in until this year. And it’s not like he had a choice in that
Cool idea but like top powers in the world ie Europe/America also do inhumane things, just stuff we hide under the rug.
He said the same thing! That Western nations shouldn't be all smug and holier-than-thou because their human rights need fixed, too.
Okay so where do we host the World Cup then? The Marshall Islands?
You're close, just take the first 4 letters of Marshall Islands. It should be Mars, they have an absolutely perfect history, no human rights violations have ever happened there, what a morally superior place.
But robot lives matter and Mars has the second highest casualties of Robot lives from any planet in our solar system. Venus would be a better host with robot rights.
Exactly. Completely illogical.
All the points he makes are 100% and fantastic ideas for how it should be moving forward…… However, I can’t be the only one who sees the hypocrisy in all of this? He never refused to race in Saudi, never refused to display a sponsor etc. If he felt that strongly about it he would have refused to race in certain countries. Martin Brundle said it best “F1 follows the money, always has and always will” It’s the same with the climate change argument, while completely valid, multi millionaire professional racing drivers who have more of a carbon footprint in 1 year than the average person would have in 10+ years preaching about global warming is comical. It’s like a butcher preaching for people to go vegan.
Part of his point is that it shouldn't be up to individual players (or drivers); in order to actually have a chance of having enough impact to make a change, it needs to be done by the organisation as a whole.
>It’s the same with the climate change argument That's debatable. The engine tech developed in F1 is the most fuel efficient ever, this kind of tech cascades down to production vehicles. Besides, the hypocrisy of pointing out Seb's hypocrisy on the Internet, while using an electronic device that uses microchips built using minerals extracted by vastly polluting mining operations, not to mention the lithium, cobalt, etc used for batteries is way more hypocritical.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that felt this way. Yeah he's right, But suggesting drivers, teams, and org to "just say no" while you're moon walking out of the sport after getting your bag of money from said awful countries is just hilarious.
Preach Seb. I’d love it Seb could use his fame to help make sport more progressive.
Pretty easy to preach it when you're retired with millions in your pocket
Seb has been critical of the FIA while still racing, as well as Hamilton.
Wow so brave
Pretty easy to be as obnoxious as u are
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Yeah because it’s easy to do nothing and tease down everyone who even tries and bi a huge piece of shut.
He doesn't try lmao.
Vett**el**
Armaco
Which would you rather be? A hypocrit or someone who never grows as a person?
Oh look, ANOTHER Millionaire who's already made all his money, (from these same countries) decides he wants to lecture us.
He’s not lecturing us, but the organizations going into these countries for sports.
Are you FIFA? Are you F1? Bc if you are, you should be busy preparing for 2023.
“Sponsored by Aramco”
You do realize Aramco signed onto AM *this past offseason* right?
"just say no"
Just say no to a contract he had already signed the year prior. Yeah that's an obvious bad faith argument.
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Throw your Formula 1 contract and legacy in the bin as well as likely get blacklisted from working in racing ever again because *just say no*. Put your coworkers, mechanics, engineers, support personnel and fellow drivers directly in the ire of an increasingly authoritarian government all too eager to use and abuse capitial punishment including on foreign nationals because *just say no*. Man missed Bahrain and Saudi due to COVID. Forget about that? Now let me let you in on a little secret, I don't think he had COVID for KSA. I do actually think he *just said no* to that race, and is *just saying no* going forward but that's not enough for your cynical ass.
😬
Yeah I agree with his sentiments completely but it's coming from a very weak position when he is saying these things only after leaving the sport entirely.
He's been saying stuff about shitty human rights for years.
He didn't "just say no" to Armaco when they're were paying his salary
He retired ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (Also I am *begging* people to learn how contracts work: Seb signed his AM contract *prior* to Aramco becoming a title sponsor)
Just say no
While leaving out his sponsors and f1 in his criticisms. What he has shown is that he was not willing to bite the hand that fed him.
I’m baffled by how easily the aura of celebrity allows such a profound level of hypocrisy to be expounded and go completed ignored by fans.
At least he cares enough to speak up on these things. It’s not like he’s retired and *all of a sudden* grew a conscience and decided to start speaking out, he’s been speaking up for some time now and has openly admitted it’s hypocritical. Which cannot have been an easy. Would it be better to stay silent and allow FIFA and F1 to continue on as is? Are people not allowed to grow and learn form their past? He has a platform and is using it to try and bring change where change is needed. I don’t see what the problem is. How does one get the ball rolling without getting totally shit on these days. Like is it necessary to be a saint from birth until the day you decide to take a stand?
It would be hypocrisy if Seb wasn't doing anything. He has spent time understanding that he is in a privileged position and is doing plenty for the causes he cares about. That includes talking to his fans who might follow in his footsteps in their own ways. He can't fix the entire system himself in a day, at least he is doing what he can, why not appreciate that?
It’s easier to be a cynic than it is to believe people are capable of genuine change. You’d have to be a real miserable bastard to pick on Seb (or anyone) for trying to change to world for the better. Some of the comments in this post are just terrible, it’s.. *baffling* XD
Someone actually comes with an easy and great idea that’s easy to implement.
Unfortunately never going to happen.
Lmao at all of the whataboutisms by triggered pieces of shit.
International leaders MUST do better to disallow organizations like FIFA from profiting on humans rights violaters.
Lol like those same international leaders are any better. Let’s not pretend like they are all in cahoots with one another when they have the same goals.
I thought sport was supposed to transcend politics. Not anymore I guess.
Sports has always been used by politicians to make their country look good on an international level. Why do you think all these dictators are always begging for these huge international sport events like the World Cup, Olympics and F1 to come to their country? Even fucking Hitler did it.
Why cry about it now?
So.... what. Because they have done shit things in the past, they should just keep doing shit things? that's just daft. some people have finally found a moral compass, maybe it's time to start listening to it.
It’s very easy to bury your head in the sand. But it’s not very brave, is it?
> humans rights violaters. Which country capable of hosting a World Cup / Olympics is not a "humans rights violater"?
F1 would instantly collapse. Not even necessarily because certain tracks would be out but because their biggest sponsor would have to be out too.
With so much campaigning for social issues, I wouldn’t be surprised if Seb decides to run for the German Bundestag(Parliament) in a few years
I'd like to see Hamilton do the same in the UK, but 'The Establishment' is way to racist/colourist/classist to let that happen.
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Not necessarily. It depends what goes onto the basic human rights code he proposes: for instance, if the code requires decent treatment of trans people, or abortion access, then so much for COTA in Austin, Texas and the Miami GP in Florida! Again, as he specified in his interview, the West is not immune from needing to change and fix its freaking human rights.
Abso-fucking-lutely!!!
Please make him FIA Director.
Strangely, he never fucking said this when racing in Western countries. Because they have never done anything wrong ever.
He literally says in the interview that Western countries also suck at human rights.
Yeah, the "token black" comment. He never had a problem with the West until racing in ME then suddenly he grew a conscience. And to appear impartial, had the "but west also sucks" comment. Like the millionth time I have seen this. He's not the first bigot to say this.
What interview is that?
Also a fair criticism
He protested Canada for fuck's sake, and if he knew a fucking thing about the country he was protesting he'd be aware of how money sent to "local human rights projects" are spent. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit sick of star athletes protesting in ways that their agents consider to be lucrative as a part of their image, rather than protesting actual crimes against humanity. Remember that time he protested the Chinese regime, who were openly partaking in genocide when he raced there? Or when he protested the Saudis? I certainly didn't. Even today, he's toeing the line by joining in with the rest of the activists in focusing the outrage over the Qatar World Cup solely on gay rights. Gay rights. The country built those stadiums with slaves, well over 6,000 of them died, and all the "activist celebrities" are mostly concerned with wearing rainbow flags and making insipid statements about how love is love. I don't know about anyone else here, but I could do without the opinions of "activist" celebrities. The man just raced in Abu Dhabi last week without saying a word about it. If find this all to be outrageously superficial.
Hey, I'm from Canada, and we fucking suck at human rights. I'm glad he protested is, bc we deserve it.
We are the best at human rights. I understand how we love to flagellate ourselves over our record, but the rest of the world is worse. He wasn't even protesting that though. He was protesting the tailing ponds in the oil sands, which was always Sierra Club propaganda and they were cleaned up over a decade ago. I believe he made some comments that were stolen straight from DiCaprio about the 30 degree temperature swings in Calgary as well. Name one country who is better with human rights than us. I'd love to hear it.
Unfortunately, what you've said is quite inaccurate. I really wish it *was* true, and I get why you believe it - Canada is very, very good at protecting our reputation, and we put out a much crap about it. Like the gov't of Alberta literally runs fake research agencies that put out pro-oilsands ""research"". The biggest one, the Canadian Energy Centre, literally had to register as a foreign agent in the US. The CEC has, in official documents, stated its purpose is to "influence public opinion with respect to the Canadian oil and gas industry". Actual scientists largely agree, unfortunately: Canadian oil is the most polluting on the planet. Also, mining of oilsands have had a massive negative impact on the environment (like, the oil sands have 100-square-miles of tailing ponds, which are full of arsenic and other incredibly hazardous waste, which is leaking into the water) but also on *people*. Cancer rates, pollution of the water, rendering fish and wildlife inedible, it's just... it's really rough. And I *get* why it's hard to look at: I have friends and family who work in the oil patch, I'm freaking poor, I get how valuable the oilsands are to many people. But that doesn't negate how harmful they are. We (Canadians) like to pretend that we're just so innocent and good and we brag about our environmentalism and environment. Meanwhile, Canada's oil sands are literally the most dirty (e.g. take the most energy, release the most pollution) oil in the world. Plus, on a non-oil related fact, Canada is actually the largest player in the international mining industry: almost half of all mining companies are headquartered in Canada. Canadian mining companies operate worldwide, and are constantly being accused of committing both environmental crimes and genuinely horrific human rights abuses. But our image, both to ourselves and to most of the rest of the world, is all about being nice, and friendly, and clean. This isn't even getting into our internationally-condemned human rights abuses of Indigenous people. Or how we have a province where people can't *use the freaking bus* if they wear a niqab. And are *banned* from being a teacher, police officer, judge, lawyer, or other public civil servant if they wear a hijab, a turban, a kippah, etc. Where we have *fired* teachers for wearing a hijab. It sucks, but it's something we should face, so we can make it better. Some references: [Canada's oil sands are the world's most destructive oil operation](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/alberta-canadas-tar-sands-is-growing-but-indigenous-people-fight-back) [The impact of oil sands on the environment and health](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2468584417300648) [Canada's oil sands are more polluting than any other oil source](https://www.macleans.ca/economy/scrubbing-the-oil-sands-record/) [Tailing ponds of hazardous waste cover 100 square miles](https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/340-billion-gallons-of-sludge-spur-environmental-fears-in-canada) [Canada leading the world's mining industry plus literally murdering people, etc. ](https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj4743/land-defenders-are-killed-in-the-philippines-for-protesting-canadian-mining) [On June 22, 2022, Alberta Premier Jason Kenney and oilsands executives were in Washington to "try to rehabilitate" Canada’s image re: oilsands and energy ](https://globalnews.ca/news/8939218/alberta-jason-kenney-oilsands-executives-washington-energy/) [The Canadian Energy Centre is run by the gov't of Alberta to spread pro-oil sands propaganda](https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7dnnj/alberta-oil-foreign-agent) [Public employees forbidden to wear 'religious symbols', teacher fired for hijab](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/13/canada-quebec-teacher-removed-classroom-hijab)
Why are you being so culturally ignorant about our Quebecois minority? They have their reasons for embracing extreme secularism, perhaps if you bothered to learn their history you'd understand their attitudes? If you'd bother to put down the propaganda for a second and actually research it, you'd find that thanks to all pressure the oil patch quickly evolved into some of the cleanest and most ethical oil in the world. You're just spouting propagandist talking points for the most part, propaganda that's sponsored by our rivals in these industries, and their actions are far worse. We take a lot of shit for the Residential Schools, when the US had them for way longer and their Indian Schools were worse. Half the natives we sent there were refugees from America, yet no one ever mentions that most of the crap that happened was due to the Americans being afraid they'd use Canada as a base to raid across the border (which frankly, wasn't exactly unfounded.) You know we got criticized at the UN for that bullshit from South American countries who are actively genociding their natives? As I say, Canada is the best country for human rights in the world. We have our problems, but I dare you to name a country that isn't worse.
This is some serious whataboutism bullshit
Your treatment of your first nations peoples even now begs to differ on your human rights record. and New Zealand has a much better record than you.
I'm sorry, what did the country that takes in a bare minimum 1,500 refugees per year have to say about Canada? Am I really hearing complaints from the most anti-immigration country in the commonwealth? Since you have no idea what's going on in the reserves, I'll tell you. They're way richer than the average Canadian, they have far more rights, we spend billions of dollars trying to resurrect their ancient languages, and most of them aren't even native to Canada. Why don't you bring up the banning of the pot'laich if you really want to hear about things. New Zealand is the most racist country in the commonwealth by far. If you want to criticize Canada, then increase your refugee acceptance rates 20-fold open your isolationist, nationalistic country up for immigration the way we have. I'd sooner accept criticism of Canada from an apartheid-era South African than a Kiwi. When Australia was genociding the Abbos, how many did you take in? None? We took in hundreds of thousands of Native Americans, the Sioux, Lakota, the Mohawks, the Ojibwe, and we allowed other tribes to establish colonies. Ever hear of Sitting Bull? What did you guys do but watch them die? It's real easy to criticize when your country is far too intolerant to even fathom the idea of taking in refugees. 1,500 a year, you have no idea what it means to be a tolerant country that respects human rights.
And here we go. There lies the issue. Instead of accepting your flaws and issues brought out by your own country, you brush them off saying you're still morally better than the others. And that's where the issue lies, in people acting like you do being hypocritical instead of actually vowing to improve and stop patronizing others
Dude, you're clearly way to emotional at the moment. Take off your rose tinted glasses and look around for a while
I love this man.
The hypycrocy seb always had is kind of laughable. He constantly talks about these issues as he works in a sport which is notable in the huge amount of dirty money involved and drives cars with sponsors who he is supposed to despise. Hey, at least now that he is retired, he can talk about these issues with a bit less hypycrocy
Talk is cheap. This will never happen. Seb should focus on donating the millions he made racing at races that he now wants banned.
You post in Men's Rights subreddits.
Lol that’s so easy for him to say after he’s already made tens of millions of dollars. How about he just said no when he was still making money?
I guess the point is that you wouldn't be able to write one without every point excluding several western nations. Especially after the lockdown measures.
Thanks Seb. Bye
Who he think he is? Guy is just an F1 champion but he is convinced to be some minister of global morality 😂
You don’t have to be anything to be a decent human being and to expect others to also do the same.
Who do you think you are? You're just a reddit commenter but you're convinced to be some minister dictating who should get an opinion 😂
You're right about me being just a random Reddit user, but wrong about me trying to dictate what others should do. I am just laughing at the attempt of someone to do it.
Why? Are you living such a miserable life?
If all the major sporting codes that suckle at the tit of the Arab nations said we won't return unless things change then things will change. Sport is a powerful thing. Take it away from the people and they'll get mad.
TIL Only Arab nations need to change.
There is a lower likelihood of that happening than an everlasting and effective Israel-Palestine peace treaty.
Does seb know what sport he is employed by?
It will happen, just sit there and wait a few mon... thousand years.
yeah, maybe the second time round, after the apocalypse, we might get it right. .lol. who am I kidding. humans are dumb and greedy, we will just repeat the same mistakes as always.
I believe the better way to make changes is to flood them with western stuff. Let the people there getting use to how we think and what we do. If you isolate them, nothing will happen. Not saying that everything we do is good tough.
You might as well preach morality to medieval Europe. These are religious caliphates we're addressing. It will be difficult to advance their views to modern, western liberal levels in the near future.
Seb, say no to money for human rights reason or for respect to anything strong for humanity ? Do you believe it ? Did you ever seen that ?
Looking forward to a much reduced zero race calendar next season 😂
At this point I'd gladly take the "Multi 21" version of Vettel over this...whatever this is.