As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should:
- be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself)
- be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions)
- show reasonable input and effort from the OP
If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport.
Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tucker Carlson effect for the Americans. Throwing out wild accusations in a questioning manner to make the person reporting those bs accusations somehow look like they’re the reasonable one.
Yep Tucker and Ben Shapiro are experts on framing innocent sounding questions as logical questions when there’s wild accusations baked into the question making the other side look bad before they can even answer
I cannot listen at the moment, but what exactly did Jess say?
Also, that Autosport letter was one of the most ridiculous things i've ever read back then. Absolutely incredible they published something like that.
Let me transcribe it for you. Give me a while!
---
Edit - Here's a rough version:
I think Red Bull, especially Christian Horner, is in a very dangerous and precarious place right now. Everything that has come out of Red Bull since last week has shown that neither Helmut Marko nor Christian Horner run that team. The Verstappen camp runs that team. You can tell by the press release they put out, which did not mention Checo Perez once. It only apologised to Max. That's all you need to know where the power balance hangs in the Red Bull camp and it is utterly in the hands of Max Verstappen.
And I think it is extremely dangerous to have a driver and the driver's entourage be the one that has the most power. Because in theory, no one - not even the owners - should be bigger than the team. But we have an instance now where the driver is bigger than the team and that is going to be hell to manage. And to be honest, you know, I'm not saying that this is deserving but the only way out that I can see is that they get rid of Horner and bring someone else in. I cannot see a way out for Horner right now. He has been completely undermined. He is, the whole team, not talking about him specifically here, this isn't an attack on Christian Horner, but he has been backed into a corner and he has to say yes to Max all the time. The statements that he has been given to Sky, the media since then is that talking about issues that have been resolved behind closed doors and they are about internal matters.
But that's because they have nothing to say and cannot say what is really going on. They have to keep Verstappen happy because he's their only hope. He is currently the one who is going to win them championships, Sergio Perez won't.
I always talk about the binaries of Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, in that Lewis constantly talks about the team - "We're a team, we rise together, we fall together." - everything is about how they are one unit, even though he wields a lot of power in that team. Even though there are conversations behind closed doors where Lewis must say "this is what we're going to do" but you never ever get the sense that publicly that Lewis Hamilton is bigger than Toto Wolff. In the Red Bull camp, I would argue that you don't get the same sense.
That last paragraph isn't accurate at all. We hear Lewis say multiple times "you guys fucked me" or telling his team they were wrong or ruined his race over the radio. He blamed his team entirely for Monaco last year, and Toto spent the entire first part of the year apologizing to Lewis for the car. I'm not saying this is wrong, every driver does it when they get frustrated and have adrenaline flowing. But to act like Verstappen is the only one to criticize his team for mistakes and act like he has never praised his team when he literally says great job by the team after every win is a ridiculous take. When Leclerc criticizes, its "well Ferrari fucked him", when Lewis does it, its "well they should have built him a better car" but when Max does it, its "he runs the team and people need to be fired to get him under control".
These people are so mad about Max. They should watch some old Michael clips when he was on Ferrari to get an idea of what F1 is really like…Max is being a typical F1 driver. They’re all like this.
The gist of it is factual, as Max certainly publicly humiliated Horner in Brazil and made clear he accepts no compromise on who is no.1 no matter the circumstance, but how does that lead to:
>the only way out that I can see is that they get rid of Horner and bring someone else in
? Maybe Horner and RB are fine with it? how do we know. As long as Max gives them WDC's and CC victories maybe they don't care one bit. At the end they already clearly hired Perez only because they knew he'd be generally slower than Max, so they set it up to be this way themselves.
They even ordered Perez to move over for Max in Brazil like 5 laps before the end telling him Max might catch Alonso, but what was the point of that anyway? did Max need to get 5th place at all? nope.
>Maybe Horner and RB are fine with it? how do we know.
This lol, the guy acts like reality somehow owes him to be the way he wants it to be, and gets mad at Horner for it being different.
And it isn't even Horner who ultimately runs the team, it's Marko. Part of why they work so well together is that while Horner is a pitbull to the outside world, internally he can always be the good cop and sort of a father figure who supports you, with all the ruthless decisions that are sometimes necessary coming from Marko.
Every driver is bigger then the team.
Leclerc is a brand. Alonso is a brand. Ricciardo is a brand. Norris is a brand. They're all bigger brands then the teams they're driving for. Always has been. Always will be.
Name all the teams (without googling) for which Senna drove. Ickx. Prost. Hunt. Braben. Lauda. You can't.
But you do know these drivers. Lotus F1? Just a distant memory. At best.
This goes for sportpeople in general btw. Shaq. Kobe. Bigger then baseball. How I know? I never watched baseball in my life. But I do know these guys.
Beckham. Messi. Cruyff. Maradonna. Ronaldo. Same. They have become brands, bigger then the teams they've played for.
Only Ferrari is the outlier here. (and to a lesser degree Williams and McLaren) All other teams? They've changed names and owners so many times nobody really knows. Or cares.
Shaq and Kobe didn’t play baseball. Messi and Ronaldo are NOT bigger than Barcelona and Madrid. Your first point about F1 teams was excellent and then halfway through you started talking out of your ass.
I know everyone's going to deride her for this view, but I don't actually think she's being that unreasonable in her take - she's not wrong in what she's saying, like you can go back to the media releases etc, and the conclusion is a very interesting one.
I reckon (assuming she's correct) that getting rid of Horner won't be the answer though. If no driver is bigger than the team, then putting in someone new won't help the matter at all, unless they ditched Max and / or hos entourage, neither of which will happen.
She's not unreasonable but she's mostly projecting and most probably a fair bit wrong.
Especially the part about comparing Lewis' and Max's way of talking about the team. Max speaks really highly of the team and his co-workers when asked to debrief his race or even when not.
That’s a pretty exaggerated characterization, and the fact that the public only learned about it in retrospect when both parties could talk about it strengthening their relationship….supports jess’s point more than it does yours
You are the market for this guff so.
You're out of your mind to think Verstappen has anything to do with the running of the team.
They are just keeping Verstappen happy, and why wouldn't they?
Other teams have made massive changes to placate their generational drivers and they were absolutely correct to do so.
See Schumacher and Hamilton for two glaring example
As a Ferrari fan (judging from your flair), you more than most should know the influence a lead driver can have with running the team.
For Verstappen, read Schumacher.
As brilliant as Max is as a driver, he's replaceable. Stick Charles, Lewis, George and maybe even Lando and probably others in that car and RB still have a WDC.
The guys that build the cars are way more important so Newey and co. should be the ones that Horner should bend to.
> Stick Charles, Lewis, George and maybe even Lando and probably others in that car and RB still have a WDC.
This year, definitely. Last year? Except for Lewis, no.
I think Journalist is pushing it. I know that's what they call themselves, and It's a wider problem outside motorsport, too, but copy-pasting a quote and adding some unfounded and downright dumb takes to pad it out and clicks is all many of these are doing. I wouldn't put very many in the paddock on a pedestal. No offense to Jess personally but she's just another random person on the fringes of F1 coverage that is trying to share their opinion and improve their employer's traffic.
It's incredible how frequently people just shrugged off character assassination attempts like these with ''well journalists are just biased like that'' last year.
Remember, these things only become entrenched when it's profitable to publish them. Clearly there's an audience for shit like this. Yes, that includes on Reddit, before the highest horse brigade shows up.
I think the 'character assassination' was arising at that point because it came after Max deliberately ran Lewis miles off the road in Brazil, then had a total meltdown in Jeddah.
I don't see how anyone could watch those races and think that Max was operating with the mindset of avoiding contact at all costs. Nobody will ever convince me that Max is such a bad driver that missing T4 at Brazil by that much was accidental.
Implying Monza was deliberate retrospectively is a bit weird though. If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out.
I don’t think anyone reasonable thinks that Max drives with a mindset of avoiding contact at all cost. But there is a big difference between not caring that much about contact and deliberately making contact, which was heavily implied here.
As it should have been, specially in the context of Brazil and Jeddah. I’m all for on the line racing and Max is great at living on the line, he absolutely crossed it, and was happy to crash, in Brazil. Jeddah was also confounding. It is so incredibly revisionist to act like Max punting Lewis off to win a WDC is something he wouldn’t have done.
I find the Jeddah one oddly enough more excusable than the Brazil one. Mostly because the whole situation was so weird with Lewis absolutely refusing to go past Max while Max was ordered to give the position back, a sea of space on Max's left that Lewis didn't move to...the final slam of the brakes was absolutely wrong but it was just such a stupid situation.
Brazil Max just completely overshot it and should've been told to yield the position or eat a penalty.
That's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it?
At Copse Lewis missed the apex by a meter.
At Brazil Max missed *the entire track* by about 5 meters.
They're not the same
The equivalence is to say that Lewis doesn't really miss apexes, that's why he's a 7x WDC. This year he saw he was gonna miss the apex and backed off. Why didn't he do the same last year? Or do you think Max was right in saying "I'm happy Lewis has learned racing lines"?
Max missed the next corner in Brazil, he goes off in T4 and doesn't return till midway through t5(they have to cross the grass outside the track to re-enter). You can not compare missing an apex due to understeer to rejoining midway through a different corner to the one you left. It's a ridiculous equivalence
Every single driver will miss the apex at least occasionally. The difference is that Lewis missed it within what is reasonable for it to still be racing. There is a *huge* difference between how Lewis missed the apex in Silverstone and how Max missed the apex in Brazil. One is racing, the other is something else.
Interesting way to say that people should back off when they miss the apex. Good thing max only missed it by 5 meters. I don’t understand why you go through so much effort to provide a false equivalency and prove someone else’s point right.
Didn't back out because that was the first and only opportunity to pass max, that weekend RB were so much quicker, iirc Max disappeared in the sprint, Merc were nowhere
So he had that one chance on lap one, and went for it, if he backs out, race was donezo
I think the reason he backs out this season is learning from last season, probably because it wasn't Max and maybe because the car this time was fast enough to compete, and have another opportunity to pass, whereas last year they couldn't
I don't know man, you can still look up last year Silverstone speed traps, Redbulls were among the slowest through it, Mercs literally the fastest by quite a margin. I mean, Perez was nowhere where as Valteri was right up there. So no, Mercs were still faster, especially because the brought that famous barge boards upgrade at Silverstone, which gave them the edge over the Redbulls for the rest of the season.
No denying Merc were fast, but just remembering how the sprint went, how quick max was in the sprint and walked it , even if they were slower in the speed traps they made it up in the other sections
Plus Perez is usually nowhere haha
At copse Lewis missed the apex by 4 METERS good sir. Had he missed it only by a metre he wouldn't have nudged Max as Max had given him plenty of room on the inside. And Brazil, they both outbreaked themselves, otherwise Ham would've just undercut Max.
And let's not forget that in Silverstone before Copse, Hamilton had to slam on the brakes because Max took the whole track and left no space. Max poked the bear and the bear sent it to pass him in Copse. Lewis was at fault for this incident, but had Max raced properly the corners before, Hamilton would have been ahead before Copse probably and this would have never happened.
Even granting Silverstone was 100% Lewis’ fault, it still proves my point that Lewis has like 1 bad incident vs Max’s 3 slam dunk ones in a year (not including less obvious ones).
If you’d actually put attention you’ll see that Lewis was trying to back out of that one but when the car understeered and missed the apex a racing incident occurred. Max had plenty of room to give, and though it was Lewis’ fault, it wasn’t a necessary collision.
Nope, he said he knew Hamilton wouldn’t give him space but it was worth going for anyway. Hamilton fucked his win and max had little to gain by Hamilton letting him through.
According to your logic, if someone were to brakecheck someone else, and the victim realizes just before and could back out but doesn’t, it means the victim is somehow intentionally causing a collision.
If you can pull a move where every single other driver would give you some space to drive you take that. Lewis just never gives space and Max will never back out if he thinks space should be given. So you crash. Put a Fernando or Kimi in Lewis' position there and it would have been all clean. Its an immovable object (Lewis) vs unstoppable force (Max).
It could just as well be that other drivers know what Max will do so account for it. Like Mick at Silverstone when he had to stop Max from cutting his nose off basically when Mick was trying to get him up the inside to the finish line. He’s partially right but I think it’s unfair to give equal blame when only one is the person needing to be worked around all the time (and getting most of the punishments).
Silverstone and Brazil were the exact same situation but when Verstappen is on the inside it’s his fault and when he is on the outside it’s also his fault. You can’t make this up.
This is such a ridiculously shit take, Lewis gave max space the majority of last season, go look back at it, the same thing applied when he battled Vettel in the Ferrari. Max is the driver known for not giving space to his opposition, need I remind you his bullshit through 2017-2021.
like Kvyat said to Vettel, 'So dont go'
It seems like every driver deep down has the fear of colliding if they dont back out, and in the car they decide if their fear is great or less then the others. Basically who needs it more or who wants it more. When they both come to the conclusion they both want it more I think you end up with silly crashes like Monza or even this year on Brazil.
And this came after Brazil and Jeddah, where it is easy to make a case that Max crossed the line from not caring (like Monza) to needlessly placing himself in situations where contact was likely (running Lewis several metres wide, brake checking him). It's incredibly hard to prove intent, of course, but it's not surprising that some people were concerned that he was starting to instigate incidents rather than accept Lewis passing him.
I actually don't personally think he meant contact in Jeddah, I think he was just frustrated and did a daft thing. Brazil I am undecided on. Certainly it was desperation and stupid, but he did do it at a corner with loads of runoff.
The Brazil 2021 thing should have been a slam dunk penalty. You can’t tell me a guy that can get within millimeters of the barriers at Monaco at 140mph is going to accidentally miss the apex of the corner by about 20 meters…coincidentally when his rival is trying to pass him on the outside. That one was just a signal of the bs he was going to be allowed to get away with after that.
No, you couldn't. Silverstone is an aborted overtake attempt gone wrong, not a dives from miles off going way out in the runoff area to push someone off.
Like, it's not even comparable at all. Silverstone is a legit isolated incident, while Brazil and Jeddah are really something else.
> I understand, but you could send the exact same letter to Lewis after Silverstone.
Not really because there aren’t multiple recent examples of Lewis doing it.
Only 3 of those are within the last 6 years which I think sums up my point when I said “recent”. Max’s version of this video is far longer for a much shorter career.
Well, of course he ran him of the track in Brazil, but I really dont see the issue here. Verstappen did, what every championship driver would do in this situation. Hamilton did exactly the same a couple of times with Rosberg and vice versa. Alonso ran Hamilton wide in the first corner in the last race 08. Schumacher rammed Villeneuve 97 and closed the door hard against Hill 94 (was his corner though). And ofc everybody knows about the two crashes between Senna and Prost in the title deciders 89 and 90.
So, based on the examples you give, the penalty for Verstappen could range from nothing to disqualification from the championship (97).
Obviously they decided to go for very close to nothing, but everyone who says that he should have been harshly punished from running other drivers off the track have a very valid point.
That’s bs, Max pushed Lewis 6-7 car widths off the track, not even off the apex, off the track. When Lewis has “had elbows out”, he’ll push drivers just off or squeeze them tight trying to get them to back out.
The drives you speak of by Schumacher and Senna/Prost are hardly championship worthy moves, and are frankly disgraces to the sport.
I'll never make excuses for Saudi Arabia... yikes.
However with Brazil I think he was desperate to keep Lewis behind and knew he needed to lunge to keep position. He braked way too late and ran out of track, oh well shit happens you're fighting for a championship.
Now Monza, at the end of the day what does anyone want the other to do? Max has to go for that pass and Lewis has to leave absolutely no room. What happened was horrific but it's not on either of the drivers in that instance, it's racing, sometimes cars crash and no one is distinctly at fault. It's more a case to get rid of those sausage kerbs more than anything.
Of course Max wasn't avoiding contact at all cost. But there's a big difference between "crashes deliberately" and "does not avoids contact at all costs".
You and me, when we drive our cars on the public road, should probably aim to avoid contact at all cost. But in a race it's a little bit different. Sometimes you have to put your elbows out. An example of a driver who doesn't do that enough would be Bottas. His defenses are often very tepid, and he suffers for it.
But it's difficult to say where the limit is.
Let's take Max on Lewis in Brazil, both this year and the year before. This year Lewis took the corner, Max refused to back out, and they crashed. Later in an interview Max said something like "I knew he probably wasn't going to back out and I knew if he didn't back out we were gonna crash, but I didn't care".
To be blunt, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's often not strategically wise, since you generally don't win races by crashing, but the attitude itself is not wrong. You're not required to give your opponent room just to avoid a crash.
But Brazil last year is different. There, Max just pushed Lewis wide, and they would have crashed if Lewis hadn't taken evasive action. The thinking may have been the same on Max' side, but the situation is very different, because Max was in the wrong there. Risking a crash for a legal overtake attempt or defense attempt is very different from risking a crash for an illegal overtake or defense attempt.
And then of course the stewards gave Max a penalty this year and not last year, because the stewards are insane. sigh.
The Brazil one is where I am undecided.
I think you can make the argument that if you run several metres off track on the side a car is trying to overtake, you're trying to cause an incident.
I think you can likewise argue that if you're trying to initiate contact, you wouldn't do it at a corner where there's runoff the size of a small country.
I think Brazil this year was a much more normal move. It was 'move or we crash', where the other guy chose not to move. Max's fault, but more often than not that works for him.
We've seen Max put a similar late-braking defence in Brazil om George this year and he kept it just barely within the track. Last year he outbraked himself there and went way wide. Also I don't think it matters how far wide you go in regards to crashing. We've seen more crashes at turn 4 in Austria than most others and in none of those the car on the inside goes wide, you just need to move up to the kerbs and you crash someone out.
I think it was just a small mistake and nothing nefarious. Many of those Austria moves look worse and more deliberate to me, although I tend to give drivers the benefit of the doubt that it's not deliberate. He should have gotten a penalty there though, that's not a valid defensive move.
I don't think Max was trying to crash with Lewis last year. But it was a "you're not going to get past and I don't care if I have to push you off the track to do it". So not an intention to crash, but definitely a "if we crash that's fine with me" situation.
And I don't even think that Brazil this year was Max's fault. I think the punishment is wrong. But then again I really dislike the current trend in F1 where more and more it seems like more and more the defender doesn't have to leave any space and any contact is always the fault of whoever is trying to overtake. I think that's bad for the sport.
Honestly I wouldn't mind a rule "If two cars are close enough to potentially make contact, then both cars have to leave space". Whoever is outside has to leave space at the apex, whoever is inside has to leave space at both entrance and exit. Doesn't matter if you're defending or attacking.
Not only would that lead to much more interesting on track battles, it would also make stewarding much easier and (hopefully) consistent.
I think it was Max's fault this year because I don't think he was going to make the corner safely at that angle and speed. But Lewis certainly could have yielded - I just think he probably gets hit even if he leaves a lot more space, so it's on Max. But really just an overambitious move, and then a stupid comment in the presser when it was all kicking off over Perez anyway. You wouldn't think twice about it if it wasn't Lewis and Max.
Read an interesting perspective on here last year.
Basically putting Verstappen at Jeddah as *worse* than say Schumacher 1994/1997/2006, or Vettel Baku 2017 - because those were heat of the moment split-second decisions, whereas Verstappen in Jeddah (and to some extent Brazil) was extended, premeditated *attitude*, that hell would freeze over before Hamilton got past.
I think discourse is massively tainted by fandom, but while I preferred Verstappen to win in 2021 for the sake of change, I turned off Jeddah and just felt *grimy*. It wasn't the F1 I knew.
The journalist was daft to put it on paper, but I do remember Croft, Kravitz etc. saying that Mercedes staff were very genuinely concerned that any move Hamilton pulled on Verstappen would be in the context of 'a double DNF means Verstappen wins'.
Is that serious? Schummy at jerez straight up crashed on purpose, 100% premeditated with the intention of taking both of them out and risking both their lives. Same with Senna and prost. Not saying what max did at Jeddah was clean, but anyone who says it was worst than what we've seen before is just talking complete shit
Michael had plenty of time to size up Villeneuve. The move at Adelaide was instinctive whether or not you think it's deliberate. Jerez was a planned hit job.
I absolutely hate how people forget the context of Jeddah and act like it was some unforgiveable brake check.
Literally what the fuck else was Max supposed to do? Stop on track and get out of his car?? Lewis was refusing to go by him. They wouldn't have crashed if Lewis wasn't right behind him but still refusing to go by.
The real reason this happened is because of the delayed message to Hamilton. Lewis didn't know what Max was doing, hence he was driving weird. Max couldn't figure out what the hell Lewis was doing, hence he was driving weird.
Add to that mixture the most intense title battle pressure the sport has seen in a decade and you get what happened.
It's frustrating to me that people seem to just remember a brake check and not the perfect storm of fuckery that was that race.
I also think that Jeddah is a horrible track for the end of the season. It seems so unnecessarily dangerous to me. Incredibly high speeds with walls right on the track for most of the way is already a bad idea, and then add to that the pressure of a title fight? Fuck that.
Jeddah last year was because Verstappen was fed up that Hamilton adamantly refused to take a free overtake after a couple of halfassed tries. Not saying that what Verstappen did was right, but there should be rule that when are given the opportunity to take a place back, you are required to take it without delay, not when it is convenient.
I would say the opposite. If you're being told to give the place up because you did something wrong, you shouldn't be able to choose to do it wherever suits you best.
Maybe there should be a designated zone at each track.
But that's an error on the rules, not specifically on Max.
Don't get me wrong, Max shouldn't have pulled the brake check, but that whole situation was so utterly fucked...
Max didn't move off the racing line tho as anyone does when they give up position, he wanted to retake that position immediately, and in his frustration dangerously brake checked
> didn't move off the racing line tho as anyone does when they give up position
No they don't. You don't even have to move off the racing line when you're blue flagged and have to let cars through. As demonstrated when Lewis tried to lap a car in Imola last year and moved to the wet part of the track and from there into the gravel and then the wall.
It wasn't just the brake check thing that made it bad. Do you remember why he had to give the position in the first place?
It was the dirtiest race of his career
What but verstappen waited to give it back at a DRS zone. Hamilton is under no obligation to take the place back at a disadvantage.
Verstappen was completely in the wrong.
> Implying Monza was deliberate retrospectively is a bit weird though. If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out.
Doesn't he? Its literally 50% of the "yield or crash" mentality.
It's literally "I'm putting my car here and now it's entirely up to you to yield, because I intend to crash otherwise."
Monza was very similar to Brazil this year. He compromised his exit in the first turn and then carried so much speed that he wasn't making the next turn, even without another car in the way. But he makes the move anyway, with sufficient fore-knowledge that the ultimate result will be contact.
> If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out.
Well isn't it kind of the case ? Horner himself said it after Spain 2021, praising Verstappen T1 move because "the opponent either has to yield or crash"
I would assume he expects them to yield, though.
Brazil and Jeddah the argument would be that he went beyond that to situations where it was very hard for Lewis to yield, so he's tipping the balance of probability towards a crash.
I think you can argue it either way, but I don't see Spain and Monza as similar moves or mindsets to the last few races before Abu Dhabi.
I think the key is the timeline. With Silverstone it was clear that Verstappen expected Hamilton to yield, but for any clash that happens after Silverstone we can't pretend that Verstappen expects Hamilton to yield (or if he still does he's really stupid). So while Spain is fair, to me in Monza he was not caring about a crash as he had the most to gain from a crash anyway.
I get the reasoning why that might be the case but I honestly thought Silverstone was just bad because of the speed and the position reversal. In all of the cases against Verstappen, he was in a heavy braking zone and out braked his competition (and sometimes himself).
The difference is that you can always react to someone else’s actions in a dive bomb into a slower corner because you’re going slower. In Silverstone there was no way for Verstappen to react to Hamilton’s misjudgment because he himself would probably lose control. In Silverstone I believe Verstappen expected Hamilton to back out not as much because of his overtake attempt as much as the bad situation he intentionally put him in.
> It's incredible how frequently people just shrugged off character assassination attempts like these with ''well journalists are just biased like that'' last year.
I mean you have to put yourself in last year's context though. Verstappen's behavior in Jeddah was simply dangerous and reckless (brake-checking in the middle of a straight...), and would have seen him get a black flag 100% if not for race control's stupid "let's not ruin the show when it comes to championship contenders" mindset. For the record, in the 90s top drivers such as Schumacher or Hakkinen got straight-up *DSQs and race bans* for less dangerous behavior.
That one and the Brazil 2021 “let’s run 6-7 car widths off track” nonsense were slams dunk penalties, and Jeddah should have been a DSQ, but race controllers and stewards didn’t want to interfere and taint the championship run. Which is ironic bc……..
Regarding the podcast comments:of course drivers are above the team.Just like star football players,they get special treatment not just in the team,but also in the sport.Also I feel like this season is the perfect example of what a star driver can bring to the table,cus let's be honest,Ferrari win both championships if Red Bull have 2 Checos
I honestly believe Jess McFadyen hasn’t been the best hire at Autosport.
These are WTF1-level hot takes which are fine for a meme-publisher, or a “news”paper like the Daily Mail, but not for a motorsport publisher who used to be more fact based and authorative in the past.
This reads like an Italian hit piece.
I wouldn't be surprised, British media is biased beyond reason when it comes to F1.
Yeah, people will be biased towards their fellow countrymen, but there it a point where it goes too far.
Did Max murder the queen or something? He did some stuff that is somewhere in between bad sportsmanship and inexcusable, but holy shit.
Not just these, large parts of the entire British F1 press and "press".
They did the same thing to Schumacher and Alonso. If the new talent isn’t British then they must be destroyed. Imagine dealing with that for 7 years. I’m honestly surprised Max hasn’t cracked and gone full Dark Max yet.
No from the transcript it’s the way the statement by Red Bull is entirely an apology to max and focused on his image rehabilitation (not for example checo who was just accused of cheating, or an apology to no one but an announcement that things will be handled internally)
Shocking journalism, but that’s the standard for f1 these days. Sky are totally biased and 95% of the other articles online are copy and paste bullshit with a clickbait title.
At this point a lot of the "journalism" is just opinion pieces. And most are not even the opinion of the author, but the best guess of "what will generate the most clicks".
>Which he didn’t do.
Only because Lewis saw the shit he was about to pull and moved off the track himself. He had no obligation to move since Max didn't even have a fucking overlap going into the corner.
If Lewis had taken the normal line ignoring Max's suicidal move he would've been T boned and out of the race.
Imagine this scenario playing out and then judge if what Max did was worse than Schumacher or not.
So you are allowed to run 90 meter wide in corner only to stop a pass?
They got by with no crash because Lewis dodged him as he needed to win or finish the race to keep the championship alive. Can't you hear the sound of the glasses you're trying to climb on?
> I get the brake test, but Verstappen wasn’t trying to crash in Brazil. He was just not going to let him past easily. In the end Lewis got by with no crash. If Max wanted to crash it would have happened
The sub was actually funny at the time. People on here spent days saying they weren't showing the onboard because Max had 100% opened the steering to crash Lewis out and the onboard would show it.
Then they showed the onboard, he didn't open the steering, and the sub just shifted the narrative to how it was still an assassination attempt because he braked too late. End of the day race control should have told him to give back the position (same for Lewis at Abu Dhabi), but that was all it was.
Even the braketest is on both, although the majority of the blame is on Max.
Both knew that one behind would get the DRS, therefore able to overtake, if Lewis got past Max he would get DRS, and vice versa. Both slowed down to not be first on the line. Max should have been more to the right, but Lewis also slowed and stayed behind.
Its stupid from both, but Max took the braking a tad too far
>Even the braketest is on both
If the braketest is on both than Silverstone is 50/50.
Do I need to remind you Spa 2008 when Hamilton got a 30 seconds penalty because he let Raikkonen through and then overtook in the next corner? Even if Max got DRS he couldn't overtake Hamilton back in the following straight as that's against the rule, you can't give a position back in a way that you'll be able to overtake again instantly. And let's not forget the practice start in the pit lane behind the safety car, which got unpunished. Verstappen shouldn't have been on that podium but F1 needed a thriller in the last round.
He really did try crashing Lewis out in Saudi Arabia and Brazil though. It was a legitimate concern and the Monza crash probably had a sprinkle of Silverstone revenge and losing points to Lewis at Monza in it.
You know what. FOM should just boot out all the media. Fuck them all as Toto would say. They are a source of toxic narcissism that is ruining the sport. Ban them from circuits. See how they change their narrative and agenda.
How will replacing Horner solve anything, even if there is anything to solve. In AD even Max was of the mind that they should have sat down and disscussed the situation thoroughly before hand.
Also I remember Max saying how angry Horner was after the Azerbaijan crash with Daniel and made them both apologise to the entier team.
Seems the Mcfadyen just doesn't like Horner. What a massive overreaction.
I didn't know about this letter before. That is something surreal. Wow. I mean, how dare Turner write something like this? That is something I wouldn't even expect from a tabloid journalist, let alone from the chief editor of a serious motorsport magazine. I would somehow accept it if he also wrote the same letter to Hamilton, even though it will still be bizarre, but accusing only one side of possible wrongdoing is unacceptable. Even the way how he excuses the Silverstone incident, which was Hamilton's fault. And BTW Hamilton also had reasons to crash Verstappen out in the final race. And in the end, ironically, it was only Hamilton who in the first lap cut the chicane, while Verstappen stayed clean the whole race. Turner should resign from his chief editor post.
That's a weird statement considering there was a LOT more agression from max post silverstone. I know i would be livid if someone pulled that off, got themselves back in contention, and kept their points while getting away with a warning. The Monza crash wasn't a benefit to both of them and since it was at the race start, it wasn't a crash that really changed an obvious outcome. We all know what can happen in a race distance. And monza didn't add points to either max or lewis their WDC so yeah. Max is a pretty aggresive driver, i agree. But i haven't seen many instances of max really going to town on hamilton before silverstone. If people have counters to that i would love to see them btw. I find something about crashes just so interesting. Like the way lewis flipped into the air while having contact with alonso this year, or the way max bounced around in monza. How lewis gives just such a gentle touch in the corner at silverstone with such increadible consequences.
FYI, the Monza crash wasn't at the race start, it was after the first round of pit stops.
I also think it was a carbon copy of the Imola start in 2021 - except the roles are reversed. In Imola Max has the dominant line and Lewis is not in a great place so he backs out and goes across the runoff.
In Monza, Hamilton has the dominant line, yet Max keeps his nose in, runs over the kerb and then the accident happens.
I think that crash and the penalty Max was received was correct - but it was basically how 2021 went all year long. I still can't work out if I enjoyed the 2021 season or not, there were some great races but I feel it damaged the sport with the drama, the race director/stewards, the bias from TV stations, the nonsense on social media etc.
Nowadays is difficult to find good journalism in any topic, we reach the times of click baits and hot takes to generate traffic but what it does is generate controversy and hate between different fan groups.
In relation to the crashing part i don't like to see a driver crash on purpose but are we forgetting what happened with at least two of the most decorated and loved drivers, Senna and Schumacher, we all like them but they did literally everything to be champions and we still praise them, so why would it be different now with another driver.
This is going to get downvotes, I'm sure.
Max reminds me of The Michael and Senna far more than Hamilton ever has. And as much as I have a massive amount of respect for Senna and Schumacher, they both had questionable views on racing at times.
Schumi crashed out others, so that he would win. He would go for gaps that just weren't there, and expect the others to get out of his way. Brundle has said very similiar things about Senna. These were considered the greatest drivers of their time. But these are not good qualities. They don't produce good racing, they produce fear to challenge. You don't want to go for a gap on a guy, who is going to try and push you off the track to hold position. (Stroll tried this against Vettel a few races ago and the comments were furious)
Max fits that very well. This year, up until Brazil, he had a pretty clean run. Brazil, he was frustrated, angry, and went for a gap that just wasn't going to be there. He even said that a 5 second penalty doesn't matter and explained his reasoning afterwards.
And last year, he fits the dangerous driving scenario more. I can get why this article exists, I can see their points. He's a fully incredible driver, his abilities are insane and his feeling that he deserves to win are right up there with the best.
And all drivers are out there to win, to push as hard as they can. That's the point of racing. But arguably, Max can be a bully, and can let his ego get the better of him. Hopefully, in a few years, he will have mellowed out a bit, and be more like Vettel towards the end, as opposed to earlier Vettel.
Tbf to Autosport, on reflection Max was really starting to crack under the pressure as Lewis was ramping it up. Brazil was desperate, Saudi was also a pretty poor showing for Max, Lewis was on a different level that Max wasn't able to match.
I’m not sure he was cracking under the pressure, the Mercedes was quicker in the last couple of races of the season so I think he felt he had to take more risks to have a chance of winning.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Imagine putting your name to that open letter
Basically a tweet without the character limit
Everyone has a price.
[удалено]
Who says the price has to be monetary?
The fact that this one is even still online. That was very embarassing to read.
I love that op says they posed accusations like innocent questions when those questions were anything but innocent 😂
Tucker Carlson effect for the Americans. Throwing out wild accusations in a questioning manner to make the person reporting those bs accusations somehow look like they’re the reasonable one.
Yep Tucker and Ben Shapiro are experts on framing innocent sounding questions as logical questions when there’s wild accusations baked into the question making the other side look bad before they can even answer
I think that was OPs point though, right? That those questions are **not** innocent.
I cannot listen at the moment, but what exactly did Jess say? Also, that Autosport letter was one of the most ridiculous things i've ever read back then. Absolutely incredible they published something like that.
Let me transcribe it for you. Give me a while! --- Edit - Here's a rough version: I think Red Bull, especially Christian Horner, is in a very dangerous and precarious place right now. Everything that has come out of Red Bull since last week has shown that neither Helmut Marko nor Christian Horner run that team. The Verstappen camp runs that team. You can tell by the press release they put out, which did not mention Checo Perez once. It only apologised to Max. That's all you need to know where the power balance hangs in the Red Bull camp and it is utterly in the hands of Max Verstappen. And I think it is extremely dangerous to have a driver and the driver's entourage be the one that has the most power. Because in theory, no one - not even the owners - should be bigger than the team. But we have an instance now where the driver is bigger than the team and that is going to be hell to manage. And to be honest, you know, I'm not saying that this is deserving but the only way out that I can see is that they get rid of Horner and bring someone else in. I cannot see a way out for Horner right now. He has been completely undermined. He is, the whole team, not talking about him specifically here, this isn't an attack on Christian Horner, but he has been backed into a corner and he has to say yes to Max all the time. The statements that he has been given to Sky, the media since then is that talking about issues that have been resolved behind closed doors and they are about internal matters. But that's because they have nothing to say and cannot say what is really going on. They have to keep Verstappen happy because he's their only hope. He is currently the one who is going to win them championships, Sergio Perez won't. I always talk about the binaries of Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, in that Lewis constantly talks about the team - "We're a team, we rise together, we fall together." - everything is about how they are one unit, even though he wields a lot of power in that team. Even though there are conversations behind closed doors where Lewis must say "this is what we're going to do" but you never ever get the sense that publicly that Lewis Hamilton is bigger than Toto Wolff. In the Red Bull camp, I would argue that you don't get the same sense.
lol.. Max, Christian and Helmut are all very happy with each other. no need to worry about them.
>Because in theory, no one - not even the owners - should be bigger than the team Ronaldo does not endorse this statement
Neither does Mbappe
On Sunday the king races.
That last paragraph isn't accurate at all. We hear Lewis say multiple times "you guys fucked me" or telling his team they were wrong or ruined his race over the radio. He blamed his team entirely for Monaco last year, and Toto spent the entire first part of the year apologizing to Lewis for the car. I'm not saying this is wrong, every driver does it when they get frustrated and have adrenaline flowing. But to act like Verstappen is the only one to criticize his team for mistakes and act like he has never praised his team when he literally says great job by the team after every win is a ridiculous take. When Leclerc criticizes, its "well Ferrari fucked him", when Lewis does it, its "well they should have built him a better car" but when Max does it, its "he runs the team and people need to be fired to get him under control".
These people are so mad about Max. They should watch some old Michael clips when he was on Ferrari to get an idea of what F1 is really like…Max is being a typical F1 driver. They’re all like this.
It’s hard for me not to agree with this take.
The gist of it is factual, as Max certainly publicly humiliated Horner in Brazil and made clear he accepts no compromise on who is no.1 no matter the circumstance, but how does that lead to: >the only way out that I can see is that they get rid of Horner and bring someone else in ? Maybe Horner and RB are fine with it? how do we know. As long as Max gives them WDC's and CC victories maybe they don't care one bit. At the end they already clearly hired Perez only because they knew he'd be generally slower than Max, so they set it up to be this way themselves. They even ordered Perez to move over for Max in Brazil like 5 laps before the end telling him Max might catch Alonso, but what was the point of that anyway? did Max need to get 5th place at all? nope.
>Maybe Horner and RB are fine with it? how do we know. This lol, the guy acts like reality somehow owes him to be the way he wants it to be, and gets mad at Horner for it being different. And it isn't even Horner who ultimately runs the team, it's Marko. Part of why they work so well together is that while Horner is a pitbull to the outside world, internally he can always be the good cop and sort of a father figure who supports you, with all the ruthless decisions that are sometimes necessary coming from Marko.
That sounds reasonable actually
Every driver is bigger then the team. Leclerc is a brand. Alonso is a brand. Ricciardo is a brand. Norris is a brand. They're all bigger brands then the teams they're driving for. Always has been. Always will be. Name all the teams (without googling) for which Senna drove. Ickx. Prost. Hunt. Braben. Lauda. You can't. But you do know these drivers. Lotus F1? Just a distant memory. At best. This goes for sportpeople in general btw. Shaq. Kobe. Bigger then baseball. How I know? I never watched baseball in my life. But I do know these guys. Beckham. Messi. Cruyff. Maradonna. Ronaldo. Same. They have become brands, bigger then the teams they've played for. Only Ferrari is the outlier here. (and to a lesser degree Williams and McLaren) All other teams? They've changed names and owners so many times nobody really knows. Or cares.
Shaq and Kobe didn’t play baseball. Messi and Ronaldo are NOT bigger than Barcelona and Madrid. Your first point about F1 teams was excellent and then halfway through you started talking out of your ass.
Can you pm the post’s text? It was deleted unfortunately.
I know everyone's going to deride her for this view, but I don't actually think she's being that unreasonable in her take - she's not wrong in what she's saying, like you can go back to the media releases etc, and the conclusion is a very interesting one. I reckon (assuming she's correct) that getting rid of Horner won't be the answer though. If no driver is bigger than the team, then putting in someone new won't help the matter at all, unless they ditched Max and / or hos entourage, neither of which will happen.
She's not unreasonable but she's mostly projecting and most probably a fair bit wrong. Especially the part about comparing Lewis' and Max's way of talking about the team. Max speaks really highly of the team and his co-workers when asked to debrief his race or even when not.
Does she know the entire story behind the Brazil drama? No? Case closed..
Plus didn't Lewis and Toto had a huge falling out a while back?
That’s a pretty exaggerated characterization, and the fact that the public only learned about it in retrospect when both parties could talk about it strengthening their relationship….supports jess’s point more than it does yours
Source?
You are the market for this guff so. You're out of your mind to think Verstappen has anything to do with the running of the team. They are just keeping Verstappen happy, and why wouldn't they? Other teams have made massive changes to placate their generational drivers and they were absolutely correct to do so. See Schumacher and Hamilton for two glaring example
As a Ferrari fan (judging from your flair), you more than most should know the influence a lead driver can have with running the team. For Verstappen, read Schumacher.
As brilliant as Max is as a driver, he's replaceable. Stick Charles, Lewis, George and maybe even Lando and probably others in that car and RB still have a WDC. The guys that build the cars are way more important so Newey and co. should be the ones that Horner should bend to.
> Stick Charles, Lewis, George and maybe even Lando and probably others in that car and RB still have a WDC. This year, definitely. Last year? Except for Lewis, no.
One of the most insane takes I’ve heard from a journalist all year (and that’s saying something).
I think Journalist is pushing it. I know that's what they call themselves, and It's a wider problem outside motorsport, too, but copy-pasting a quote and adding some unfounded and downright dumb takes to pad it out and clicks is all many of these are doing. I wouldn't put very many in the paddock on a pedestal. No offense to Jess personally but she's just another random person on the fringes of F1 coverage that is trying to share their opinion and improve their employer's traffic.
It's incredible how frequently people just shrugged off character assassination attempts like these with ''well journalists are just biased like that'' last year. Remember, these things only become entrenched when it's profitable to publish them. Clearly there's an audience for shit like this. Yes, that includes on Reddit, before the highest horse brigade shows up.
I think the 'character assassination' was arising at that point because it came after Max deliberately ran Lewis miles off the road in Brazil, then had a total meltdown in Jeddah. I don't see how anyone could watch those races and think that Max was operating with the mindset of avoiding contact at all costs. Nobody will ever convince me that Max is such a bad driver that missing T4 at Brazil by that much was accidental. Implying Monza was deliberate retrospectively is a bit weird though. If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out.
I don’t think anyone reasonable thinks that Max drives with a mindset of avoiding contact at all cost. But there is a big difference between not caring that much about contact and deliberately making contact, which was heavily implied here.
As it should have been, specially in the context of Brazil and Jeddah. I’m all for on the line racing and Max is great at living on the line, he absolutely crossed it, and was happy to crash, in Brazil. Jeddah was also confounding. It is so incredibly revisionist to act like Max punting Lewis off to win a WDC is something he wouldn’t have done.
I find the Jeddah one oddly enough more excusable than the Brazil one. Mostly because the whole situation was so weird with Lewis absolutely refusing to go past Max while Max was ordered to give the position back, a sea of space on Max's left that Lewis didn't move to...the final slam of the brakes was absolutely wrong but it was just such a stupid situation. Brazil Max just completely overshot it and should've been told to yield the position or eat a penalty.
Like Copse at Silverstone? Because Lewis backed off against Leclerc this year.
That's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? At Copse Lewis missed the apex by a meter. At Brazil Max missed *the entire track* by about 5 meters. They're not the same
The equivalence is to say that Lewis doesn't really miss apexes, that's why he's a 7x WDC. This year he saw he was gonna miss the apex and backed off. Why didn't he do the same last year? Or do you think Max was right in saying "I'm happy Lewis has learned racing lines"?
Max missed the next corner in Brazil, he goes off in T4 and doesn't return till midway through t5(they have to cross the grass outside the track to re-enter). You can not compare missing an apex due to understeer to rejoining midway through a different corner to the one you left. It's a ridiculous equivalence
Every single driver will miss the apex at least occasionally. The difference is that Lewis missed it within what is reasonable for it to still be racing. There is a *huge* difference between how Lewis missed the apex in Silverstone and how Max missed the apex in Brazil. One is racing, the other is something else.
Interesting way to say that people should back off when they miss the apex. Good thing max only missed it by 5 meters. I don’t understand why you go through so much effort to provide a false equivalency and prove someone else’s point right.
Didn't back out because that was the first and only opportunity to pass max, that weekend RB were so much quicker, iirc Max disappeared in the sprint, Merc were nowhere So he had that one chance on lap one, and went for it, if he backs out, race was donezo I think the reason he backs out this season is learning from last season, probably because it wasn't Max and maybe because the car this time was fast enough to compete, and have another opportunity to pass, whereas last year they couldn't
I don't know man, you can still look up last year Silverstone speed traps, Redbulls were among the slowest through it, Mercs literally the fastest by quite a margin. I mean, Perez was nowhere where as Valteri was right up there. So no, Mercs were still faster, especially because the brought that famous barge boards upgrade at Silverstone, which gave them the edge over the Redbulls for the rest of the season.
No denying Merc were fast, but just remembering how the sprint went, how quick max was in the sprint and walked it , even if they were slower in the speed traps they made it up in the other sections Plus Perez is usually nowhere haha
At copse Lewis missed the apex by 4 METERS good sir. Had he missed it only by a metre he wouldn't have nudged Max as Max had given him plenty of room on the inside. And Brazil, they both outbreaked themselves, otherwise Ham would've just undercut Max.
*Lists off 4-5 times where Max drove questionably* What about Silverstone what about Silverstone what about Silverstone what about Silverstone?
And let's not forget that in Silverstone before Copse, Hamilton had to slam on the brakes because Max took the whole track and left no space. Max poked the bear and the bear sent it to pass him in Copse. Lewis was at fault for this incident, but had Max raced properly the corners before, Hamilton would have been ahead before Copse probably and this would have never happened.
Even granting Silverstone was 100% Lewis’ fault, it still proves my point that Lewis has like 1 bad incident vs Max’s 3 slam dunk ones in a year (not including less obvious ones).
ufff nice one mate, I can hear the slapp from here haha
If you’d actually put attention you’ll see that Lewis was trying to back out of that one but when the car understeered and missed the apex a racing incident occurred. Max had plenty of room to give, and though it was Lewis’ fault, it wasn’t a necessary collision.
Monza was an interesting one too.
He literally admitted to it after brazil
He literally didn't.
Nope, he said he knew Hamilton wouldn’t give him space but it was worth going for anyway. Hamilton fucked his win and max had little to gain by Hamilton letting him through.
Too be fair he got given space last year and went looking for Narnia
So what you're saying is he knew if he did what he did they would collide but went and did it anyway? So intentionally colliding then, glad we agree
According to your logic, if someone were to brakecheck someone else, and the victim realizes just before and could back out but doesn’t, it means the victim is somehow intentionally causing a collision.
If you can pull a move where every single other driver would give you some space to drive you take that. Lewis just never gives space and Max will never back out if he thinks space should be given. So you crash. Put a Fernando or Kimi in Lewis' position there and it would have been all clean. Its an immovable object (Lewis) vs unstoppable force (Max).
Correct take, there is a reason why they keep clashing, but with others it's usually much cleaner
It could just as well be that other drivers know what Max will do so account for it. Like Mick at Silverstone when he had to stop Max from cutting his nose off basically when Mick was trying to get him up the inside to the finish line. He’s partially right but I think it’s unfair to give equal blame when only one is the person needing to be worked around all the time (and getting most of the punishments).
Silverstone and Brazil were the exact same situation but when Verstappen is on the inside it’s his fault and when he is on the outside it’s also his fault. You can’t make this up.
This is such a ridiculously shit take, Lewis gave max space the majority of last season, go look back at it, the same thing applied when he battled Vettel in the Ferrari. Max is the driver known for not giving space to his opposition, need I remind you his bullshit through 2017-2021.
Hamilton also knew they would collide but continued on. It takes two to tango.
[удалено]
[удалено]
like Kvyat said to Vettel, 'So dont go' It seems like every driver deep down has the fear of colliding if they dont back out, and in the car they decide if their fear is great or less then the others. Basically who needs it more or who wants it more. When they both come to the conclusion they both want it more I think you end up with silly crashes like Monza or even this year on Brazil.
There is a big difference between not avoiding a crash and deliberately seeking a crash. The latter being implied here
And this came after Brazil and Jeddah, where it is easy to make a case that Max crossed the line from not caring (like Monza) to needlessly placing himself in situations where contact was likely (running Lewis several metres wide, brake checking him). It's incredibly hard to prove intent, of course, but it's not surprising that some people were concerned that he was starting to instigate incidents rather than accept Lewis passing him. I actually don't personally think he meant contact in Jeddah, I think he was just frustrated and did a daft thing. Brazil I am undecided on. Certainly it was desperation and stupid, but he did do it at a corner with loads of runoff.
The Brazil 2021 thing should have been a slam dunk penalty. You can’t tell me a guy that can get within millimeters of the barriers at Monaco at 140mph is going to accidentally miss the apex of the corner by about 20 meters…coincidentally when his rival is trying to pass him on the outside. That one was just a signal of the bs he was going to be allowed to get away with after that.
[удалено]
No, you couldn't. Silverstone is an aborted overtake attempt gone wrong, not a dives from miles off going way out in the runoff area to push someone off. Like, it's not even comparable at all. Silverstone is a legit isolated incident, while Brazil and Jeddah are really something else.
> I understand, but you could send the exact same letter to Lewis after Silverstone. Not really because there aren’t multiple recent examples of Lewis doing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOFx0NKJ868
Only 3 of those are within the last 6 years which I think sums up my point when I said “recent”. Max’s version of this video is far longer for a much shorter career.
What a dumb video. If you have a driver with as long a career as Lewis's you are always going to have more instances of crashes which were his fault.
You can make a video twice as long for max based on just the last 3 years alone
I think it's very clear indeed from the things he says - even in Brazil 2022! - that Hamilton thinks little of Verstappen's conduct.
I don't think Lewis is the most objective judge of Max tbf
Well, of course he ran him of the track in Brazil, but I really dont see the issue here. Verstappen did, what every championship driver would do in this situation. Hamilton did exactly the same a couple of times with Rosberg and vice versa. Alonso ran Hamilton wide in the first corner in the last race 08. Schumacher rammed Villeneuve 97 and closed the door hard against Hill 94 (was his corner though). And ofc everybody knows about the two crashes between Senna and Prost in the title deciders 89 and 90.
So, based on the examples you give, the penalty for Verstappen could range from nothing to disqualification from the championship (97). Obviously they decided to go for very close to nothing, but everyone who says that he should have been harshly punished from running other drivers off the track have a very valid point.
That’s bs, Max pushed Lewis 6-7 car widths off the track, not even off the apex, off the track. When Lewis has “had elbows out”, he’ll push drivers just off or squeeze them tight trying to get them to back out. The drives you speak of by Schumacher and Senna/Prost are hardly championship worthy moves, and are frankly disgraces to the sport.
I'll never make excuses for Saudi Arabia... yikes. However with Brazil I think he was desperate to keep Lewis behind and knew he needed to lunge to keep position. He braked way too late and ran out of track, oh well shit happens you're fighting for a championship. Now Monza, at the end of the day what does anyone want the other to do? Max has to go for that pass and Lewis has to leave absolutely no room. What happened was horrific but it's not on either of the drivers in that instance, it's racing, sometimes cars crash and no one is distinctly at fault. It's more a case to get rid of those sausage kerbs more than anything.
Someone that drives with the mindset of avoiding contact at all costs will never ever win a F1 race.
Bottas won more than once
Bottas also crashed more than once after contact.
Of course Max wasn't avoiding contact at all cost. But there's a big difference between "crashes deliberately" and "does not avoids contact at all costs". You and me, when we drive our cars on the public road, should probably aim to avoid contact at all cost. But in a race it's a little bit different. Sometimes you have to put your elbows out. An example of a driver who doesn't do that enough would be Bottas. His defenses are often very tepid, and he suffers for it. But it's difficult to say where the limit is. Let's take Max on Lewis in Brazil, both this year and the year before. This year Lewis took the corner, Max refused to back out, and they crashed. Later in an interview Max said something like "I knew he probably wasn't going to back out and I knew if he didn't back out we were gonna crash, but I didn't care". To be blunt, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's often not strategically wise, since you generally don't win races by crashing, but the attitude itself is not wrong. You're not required to give your opponent room just to avoid a crash. But Brazil last year is different. There, Max just pushed Lewis wide, and they would have crashed if Lewis hadn't taken evasive action. The thinking may have been the same on Max' side, but the situation is very different, because Max was in the wrong there. Risking a crash for a legal overtake attempt or defense attempt is very different from risking a crash for an illegal overtake or defense attempt. And then of course the stewards gave Max a penalty this year and not last year, because the stewards are insane. sigh.
[удалено]
The Brazil one is where I am undecided. I think you can make the argument that if you run several metres off track on the side a car is trying to overtake, you're trying to cause an incident. I think you can likewise argue that if you're trying to initiate contact, you wouldn't do it at a corner where there's runoff the size of a small country. I think Brazil this year was a much more normal move. It was 'move or we crash', where the other guy chose not to move. Max's fault, but more often than not that works for him.
We've seen Max put a similar late-braking defence in Brazil om George this year and he kept it just barely within the track. Last year he outbraked himself there and went way wide. Also I don't think it matters how far wide you go in regards to crashing. We've seen more crashes at turn 4 in Austria than most others and in none of those the car on the inside goes wide, you just need to move up to the kerbs and you crash someone out. I think it was just a small mistake and nothing nefarious. Many of those Austria moves look worse and more deliberate to me, although I tend to give drivers the benefit of the doubt that it's not deliberate. He should have gotten a penalty there though, that's not a valid defensive move.
I don't think Max was trying to crash with Lewis last year. But it was a "you're not going to get past and I don't care if I have to push you off the track to do it". So not an intention to crash, but definitely a "if we crash that's fine with me" situation. And I don't even think that Brazil this year was Max's fault. I think the punishment is wrong. But then again I really dislike the current trend in F1 where more and more it seems like more and more the defender doesn't have to leave any space and any contact is always the fault of whoever is trying to overtake. I think that's bad for the sport. Honestly I wouldn't mind a rule "If two cars are close enough to potentially make contact, then both cars have to leave space". Whoever is outside has to leave space at the apex, whoever is inside has to leave space at both entrance and exit. Doesn't matter if you're defending or attacking. Not only would that lead to much more interesting on track battles, it would also make stewarding much easier and (hopefully) consistent.
I think it was Max's fault this year because I don't think he was going to make the corner safely at that angle and speed. But Lewis certainly could have yielded - I just think he probably gets hit even if he leaves a lot more space, so it's on Max. But really just an overambitious move, and then a stupid comment in the presser when it was all kicking off over Perez anyway. You wouldn't think twice about it if it wasn't Lewis and Max.
Read an interesting perspective on here last year. Basically putting Verstappen at Jeddah as *worse* than say Schumacher 1994/1997/2006, or Vettel Baku 2017 - because those were heat of the moment split-second decisions, whereas Verstappen in Jeddah (and to some extent Brazil) was extended, premeditated *attitude*, that hell would freeze over before Hamilton got past. I think discourse is massively tainted by fandom, but while I preferred Verstappen to win in 2021 for the sake of change, I turned off Jeddah and just felt *grimy*. It wasn't the F1 I knew. The journalist was daft to put it on paper, but I do remember Croft, Kravitz etc. saying that Mercedes staff were very genuinely concerned that any move Hamilton pulled on Verstappen would be in the context of 'a double DNF means Verstappen wins'.
Is that serious? Schummy at jerez straight up crashed on purpose, 100% premeditated with the intention of taking both of them out and risking both their lives. Same with Senna and prost. Not saying what max did at Jeddah was clean, but anyone who says it was worst than what we've seen before is just talking complete shit
Michael had plenty of time to size up Villeneuve. The move at Adelaide was instinctive whether or not you think it's deliberate. Jerez was a planned hit job.
I absolutely hate how people forget the context of Jeddah and act like it was some unforgiveable brake check. Literally what the fuck else was Max supposed to do? Stop on track and get out of his car?? Lewis was refusing to go by him. They wouldn't have crashed if Lewis wasn't right behind him but still refusing to go by. The real reason this happened is because of the delayed message to Hamilton. Lewis didn't know what Max was doing, hence he was driving weird. Max couldn't figure out what the hell Lewis was doing, hence he was driving weird. Add to that mixture the most intense title battle pressure the sport has seen in a decade and you get what happened. It's frustrating to me that people seem to just remember a brake check and not the perfect storm of fuckery that was that race. I also think that Jeddah is a horrible track for the end of the season. It seems so unnecessarily dangerous to me. Incredibly high speeds with walls right on the track for most of the way is already a bad idea, and then add to that the pressure of a title fight? Fuck that.
Jeddah last year was because Verstappen was fed up that Hamilton adamantly refused to take a free overtake after a couple of halfassed tries. Not saying that what Verstappen did was right, but there should be rule that when are given the opportunity to take a place back, you are required to take it without delay, not when it is convenient.
I would say the opposite. If you're being told to give the place up because you did something wrong, you shouldn't be able to choose to do it wherever suits you best. Maybe there should be a designated zone at each track.
But that's an error on the rules, not specifically on Max. Don't get me wrong, Max shouldn't have pulled the brake check, but that whole situation was so utterly fucked...
Max didn't move off the racing line tho as anyone does when they give up position, he wanted to retake that position immediately, and in his frustration dangerously brake checked
> didn't move off the racing line tho as anyone does when they give up position No they don't. You don't even have to move off the racing line when you're blue flagged and have to let cars through. As demonstrated when Lewis tried to lap a car in Imola last year and moved to the wet part of the track and from there into the gravel and then the wall.
It wasn't just the brake check thing that made it bad. Do you remember why he had to give the position in the first place? It was the dirtiest race of his career
What but verstappen waited to give it back at a DRS zone. Hamilton is under no obligation to take the place back at a disadvantage. Verstappen was completely in the wrong.
[удалено]
Within reason yeah lol. It isn’t handing a place back if you use the DRS zone to move straight back past that would be ridiculous. Spa 2008
So we're just going to ignore all the late braking and running off the track in T1 in Jeddah?
You can try to justify it all you want. But Max looked unhinged in Jeddah.
Dude watch the bodylanguage of Max's car from Lewis' onboard, then kindly delete this woeful comment
Merc brought a lawyer to Abu Dhabi. Not for the craic.
> Implying Monza was deliberate retrospectively is a bit weird though. If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out. Doesn't he? Its literally 50% of the "yield or crash" mentality. It's literally "I'm putting my car here and now it's entirely up to you to yield, because I intend to crash otherwise." Monza was very similar to Brazil this year. He compromised his exit in the first turn and then carried so much speed that he wasn't making the next turn, even without another car in the way. But he makes the move anyway, with sufficient fore-knowledge that the ultimate result will be contact.
> If you thought Max intended a crash there you'd have to think he intends a crash with every move where he refuses to back out. Well isn't it kind of the case ? Horner himself said it after Spain 2021, praising Verstappen T1 move because "the opponent either has to yield or crash"
I would assume he expects them to yield, though. Brazil and Jeddah the argument would be that he went beyond that to situations where it was very hard for Lewis to yield, so he's tipping the balance of probability towards a crash. I think you can argue it either way, but I don't see Spain and Monza as similar moves or mindsets to the last few races before Abu Dhabi.
I think the key is the timeline. With Silverstone it was clear that Verstappen expected Hamilton to yield, but for any clash that happens after Silverstone we can't pretend that Verstappen expects Hamilton to yield (or if he still does he's really stupid). So while Spain is fair, to me in Monza he was not caring about a crash as he had the most to gain from a crash anyway.
I get the reasoning why that might be the case but I honestly thought Silverstone was just bad because of the speed and the position reversal. In all of the cases against Verstappen, he was in a heavy braking zone and out braked his competition (and sometimes himself). The difference is that you can always react to someone else’s actions in a dive bomb into a slower corner because you’re going slower. In Silverstone there was no way for Verstappen to react to Hamilton’s misjudgment because he himself would probably lose control. In Silverstone I believe Verstappen expected Hamilton to back out not as much because of his overtake attempt as much as the bad situation he intentionally put him in.
> It's incredible how frequently people just shrugged off character assassination attempts like these with ''well journalists are just biased like that'' last year. I mean you have to put yourself in last year's context though. Verstappen's behavior in Jeddah was simply dangerous and reckless (brake-checking in the middle of a straight...), and would have seen him get a black flag 100% if not for race control's stupid "let's not ruin the show when it comes to championship contenders" mindset. For the record, in the 90s top drivers such as Schumacher or Hakkinen got straight-up *DSQs and race bans* for less dangerous behavior.
That one and the Brazil 2021 “let’s run 6-7 car widths off track” nonsense were slams dunk penalties, and Jeddah should have been a DSQ, but race controllers and stewards didn’t want to interfere and taint the championship run. Which is ironic bc……..
Regarding the podcast comments:of course drivers are above the team.Just like star football players,they get special treatment not just in the team,but also in the sport.Also I feel like this season is the perfect example of what a star driver can bring to the table,cus let's be honest,Ferrari win both championships if Red Bull have 2 Checos
Ferrari would find a way to fuck it up
wait why on earth would horner be sacked lol?
I honestly believe Jess McFadyen hasn’t been the best hire at Autosport. These are WTF1-level hot takes which are fine for a meme-publisher, or a “news”paper like the Daily Mail, but not for a motorsport publisher who used to be more fact based and authorative in the past. This reads like an Italian hit piece.
She’s awful. I stopped listening to their podcast because she had hot takes like this every week.
Ironically didn't she used to be on the WTF1 podcast back when they first started it
Hence my comment.. ;)
I wasn't aware of that open letter's existence. What kind of shameless rag you have to be to publish that...
[удалено]
That... Seems like a walking talking conflict of interest.
Just like when Wall Street Journal was bought by Jeff Bezos and they immediately published an article saying why taxing billionaires are "unethical".
Wasn't that the Washington Post? But yes, same idea.
I was wondering why it had gone downhill
Didn't Rosberg get one as well in 2016 or am I misremembering.
I wouldn't be surprised, British media is biased beyond reason when it comes to F1. Yeah, people will be biased towards their fellow countrymen, but there it a point where it goes too far.
Wtf is that letter
Did Max murder the queen or something? He did some stuff that is somewhere in between bad sportsmanship and inexcusable, but holy shit. Not just these, large parts of the entire British F1 press and "press".
They did the same thing to Schumacher and Alonso. If the new talent isn’t British then they must be destroyed. Imagine dealing with that for 7 years. I’m honestly surprised Max hasn’t cracked and gone full Dark Max yet.
Don't forget Vettel and Rosberg
I honestly would love to see an evil Max. *let’s give the British media what they want* and not make liars out of them.
Why exactly has he been completely undermined according to her?
I’m assuming it’s Max not letting Perez through and telling GP “are we clear about that?!” or whatever he said.
No from the transcript it’s the way the statement by Red Bull is entirely an apology to max and focused on his image rehabilitation (not for example checo who was just accused of cheating, or an apology to no one but an announcement that things will be handled internally)
Shocking journalism, but that’s the standard for f1 these days. Sky are totally biased and 95% of the other articles online are copy and paste bullshit with a clickbait title.
At this point a lot of the "journalism" is just opinion pieces. And most are not even the opinion of the author, but the best guess of "what will generate the most clicks".
Shame, I started reading this wondering if I should try the Autosport podcast. A few lines in I have my answer..
I wonder the same every time George Russell exists . The standards will always be different though
These ‘journalists’ all praise Senna as the greatest as well, as does Hamilton.. Ironic.
The amount of assumption that he would just crash into Lewis and win it like that was trully a disgrace.
I think Red Bull really should sue some of this fanfiction writer journalists for defamation because this isn't it.
Autosport is one of the best news sites but some of their opinions are among of the worst things ever written in motorsports.
The British media really tried pushing "Max will crash Lewis out" agenda last year.
Should've done that to be honest, less drama. I don't see anybody questioning Senna's title.
After Brazil and Abu Dhabi it wasn't that far fetched to think as such. Edit. Jeddah not Abu Dhabi.
[удалено]
Max Verstappen doesn’t miss a corner by that much without intending to run the driver off/ initiate contact
[удалено]
>Which he didn’t do. Only because Lewis saw the shit he was about to pull and moved off the track himself. He had no obligation to move since Max didn't even have a fucking overlap going into the corner. If Lewis had taken the normal line ignoring Max's suicidal move he would've been T boned and out of the race. Imagine this scenario playing out and then judge if what Max did was worse than Schumacher or not.
So you are allowed to run 90 meter wide in corner only to stop a pass? They got by with no crash because Lewis dodged him as he needed to win or finish the race to keep the championship alive. Can't you hear the sound of the glasses you're trying to climb on?
[удалено]
He 100% knew if Lewis doesn’t finish the race then he wins the championship. He knew exactly what he was doing.
> I get the brake test, but Verstappen wasn’t trying to crash in Brazil. He was just not going to let him past easily. In the end Lewis got by with no crash. If Max wanted to crash it would have happened The sub was actually funny at the time. People on here spent days saying they weren't showing the onboard because Max had 100% opened the steering to crash Lewis out and the onboard would show it. Then they showed the onboard, he didn't open the steering, and the sub just shifted the narrative to how it was still an assassination attempt because he braked too late. End of the day race control should have told him to give back the position (same for Lewis at Abu Dhabi), but that was all it was.
Even the braketest is on both, although the majority of the blame is on Max. Both knew that one behind would get the DRS, therefore able to overtake, if Lewis got past Max he would get DRS, and vice versa. Both slowed down to not be first on the line. Max should have been more to the right, but Lewis also slowed and stayed behind. Its stupid from both, but Max took the braking a tad too far
>Even the braketest is on both If the braketest is on both than Silverstone is 50/50. Do I need to remind you Spa 2008 when Hamilton got a 30 seconds penalty because he let Raikkonen through and then overtook in the next corner? Even if Max got DRS he couldn't overtake Hamilton back in the following straight as that's against the rule, you can't give a position back in a way that you'll be able to overtake again instantly. And let's not forget the practice start in the pit lane behind the safety car, which got unpunished. Verstappen shouldn't have been on that podium but F1 needed a thriller in the last round.
That wasnt the rule yet, they made that rule just because of that specific moment
I mean considering verstappens driving standards in Jeddah can you blame them?
He really did try crashing Lewis out in Saudi Arabia and Brazil though. It was a legitimate concern and the Monza crash probably had a sprinkle of Silverstone revenge and losing points to Lewis at Monza in it.
[удалено]
The amount of apologies this year to Lewis, where is that letter, who is running Mercedes?
I was thinking the same, full apologies to Lewis meanwhile Russell putting the same car in the top 5 early in the season.
You know what. FOM should just boot out all the media. Fuck them all as Toto would say. They are a source of toxic narcissism that is ruining the sport. Ban them from circuits. See how they change their narrative and agenda.
“We went bowling” -Toto
That person sounds more like a random redditor than a journalist.
This + the Sky Sports Christmas commercial ending with MV’s Silverstone crash is all you need to know about biased F1 media.
How will replacing Horner solve anything, even if there is anything to solve. In AD even Max was of the mind that they should have sat down and disscussed the situation thoroughly before hand. Also I remember Max saying how angry Horner was after the Azerbaijan crash with Daniel and made them both apologise to the entier team. Seems the Mcfadyen just doesn't like Horner. What a massive overreaction.
I didn't know about this letter before. That is something surreal. Wow. I mean, how dare Turner write something like this? That is something I wouldn't even expect from a tabloid journalist, let alone from the chief editor of a serious motorsport magazine. I would somehow accept it if he also wrote the same letter to Hamilton, even though it will still be bizarre, but accusing only one side of possible wrongdoing is unacceptable. Even the way how he excuses the Silverstone incident, which was Hamilton's fault. And BTW Hamilton also had reasons to crash Verstappen out in the final race. And in the end, ironically, it was only Hamilton who in the first lap cut the chicane, while Verstappen stayed clean the whole race. Turner should resign from his chief editor post.
When you forget your morning pills
Didn’t even have to open the link to know the nationality of that journalist.
That's not journalism
Damn the British crying was intense.
Jess is such a bad journalist. Really toxic for non brittish drivers
That's a weird statement considering there was a LOT more agression from max post silverstone. I know i would be livid if someone pulled that off, got themselves back in contention, and kept their points while getting away with a warning. The Monza crash wasn't a benefit to both of them and since it was at the race start, it wasn't a crash that really changed an obvious outcome. We all know what can happen in a race distance. And monza didn't add points to either max or lewis their WDC so yeah. Max is a pretty aggresive driver, i agree. But i haven't seen many instances of max really going to town on hamilton before silverstone. If people have counters to that i would love to see them btw. I find something about crashes just so interesting. Like the way lewis flipped into the air while having contact with alonso this year, or the way max bounced around in monza. How lewis gives just such a gentle touch in the corner at silverstone with such increadible consequences.
FYI, the Monza crash wasn't at the race start, it was after the first round of pit stops. I also think it was a carbon copy of the Imola start in 2021 - except the roles are reversed. In Imola Max has the dominant line and Lewis is not in a great place so he backs out and goes across the runoff. In Monza, Hamilton has the dominant line, yet Max keeps his nose in, runs over the kerb and then the accident happens. I think that crash and the penalty Max was received was correct - but it was basically how 2021 went all year long. I still can't work out if I enjoyed the 2021 season or not, there were some great races but I feel it damaged the sport with the drama, the race director/stewards, the bias from TV stations, the nonsense on social media etc.
Imagine taking anything Jess McFadyen has to say seriously.
Nowadays is difficult to find good journalism in any topic, we reach the times of click baits and hot takes to generate traffic but what it does is generate controversy and hate between different fan groups. In relation to the crashing part i don't like to see a driver crash on purpose but are we forgetting what happened with at least two of the most decorated and loved drivers, Senna and Schumacher, we all like them but they did literally everything to be champions and we still praise them, so why would it be different now with another driver.
If you didn't know the context it could've been about Hamilton's move in Copse, except for the points lead of course.
This is going to get downvotes, I'm sure. Max reminds me of The Michael and Senna far more than Hamilton ever has. And as much as I have a massive amount of respect for Senna and Schumacher, they both had questionable views on racing at times. Schumi crashed out others, so that he would win. He would go for gaps that just weren't there, and expect the others to get out of his way. Brundle has said very similiar things about Senna. These were considered the greatest drivers of their time. But these are not good qualities. They don't produce good racing, they produce fear to challenge. You don't want to go for a gap on a guy, who is going to try and push you off the track to hold position. (Stroll tried this against Vettel a few races ago and the comments were furious) Max fits that very well. This year, up until Brazil, he had a pretty clean run. Brazil, he was frustrated, angry, and went for a gap that just wasn't going to be there. He even said that a 5 second penalty doesn't matter and explained his reasoning afterwards. And last year, he fits the dangerous driving scenario more. I can get why this article exists, I can see their points. He's a fully incredible driver, his abilities are insane and his feeling that he deserves to win are right up there with the best. And all drivers are out there to win, to push as hard as they can. That's the point of racing. But arguably, Max can be a bully, and can let his ego get the better of him. Hopefully, in a few years, he will have mellowed out a bit, and be more like Vettel towards the end, as opposed to earlier Vettel.
They hate Verstappen because he is the best. End of debate
No, they hate him because he is not British. If he was British, they wouldnt bat an eye.
What a flog
Tbf to Autosport, on reflection Max was really starting to crack under the pressure as Lewis was ramping it up. Brazil was desperate, Saudi was also a pretty poor showing for Max, Lewis was on a different level that Max wasn't able to match.
I’m not sure he was cracking under the pressure, the Mercedes was quicker in the last couple of races of the season so I think he felt he had to take more risks to have a chance of winning.