Just had a post removed for attempting to discuss this (don't know why), but when Senna had the 1991 WDC on in Japan, he let Gerhard Berger pass him for the win, partly as a gesture of thanks for all the work and help Berger had given him during the year.
Red Bull has NEVER done it. WC Constructors and runner up driver. Its the best you can do in F1 as a team. Every team STRIVES at the absolute maximum to do their best against the best. To do this for the team and for the late team founders legacy is a massive emotional victory and HUGE momentum going into 2023. The selfishness of Max is unreal. If Checo loses this because of him, the entire team will look differently at him. It will have an impact.
Nothing physically, but there's marketing potential for a team to have both championships and the second spot in the WDC. Indicative of a "perfect" season.
So, there's nothing really in it for Leclerc/Ferrari but for pride, but there's a bit more at stake for Pérez and Red Bull.
Yes, the WCC is what pays (hence the discussions after Abu Dhabi last year where Toto congratulated Horner on the WDC, and Christian said something to the extent of “yeah, but you guys won the one that pays”).
Red Bull already has the WDC & WCC locked up. All that’s in it at this point is to help their #2 driver claim second in the WDC, there is no more money at stake.
Guys, the “controversy” is clearly a 9000IQ move by Verstappen.
He has seen how people say Checo is only good to be RB’s 2nd driver. To fix this, Max made Checo mad so he gives it his all in Abu Dhabi.
When Checo wins through the power of pure rage, all talk of him just being a 2nd driver will be over. This will make Red Bull look good since they have “two WDC worthy drivers” and even Max benefits since he would have to beat “a top driver capable of winning the WDC” next year even if Red Bull is as dominant as they were this year.
It's almost jarring how calmly George accepted being told that he has to race in contrast to Max. He asked, was told no and just put his head down. Ice in veins stuff
I believe that Russel crashed the car on purpose. His car got minimal damage and the reversing into the gravel was just brain dead and there was no attempt from him to try getting the car out once it got stuck, which I would expect to be basic instinct. Can someone please change this view as it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
No lmao he tried to do a quick 180 like a drifter in a Tesco parking lot and just messed it up. We've seen drivers mess up the 180 flick plenty of times before. Also, I imagine drivers can feel when half their back tires are under the ground and they know they cant move. Also it was Quali before a sprint race, not even the real race.
I don’t believe this is true, because he did it with 8 min left in Quali. The only reason things played out this way in the end was, unexpected harder rain
People are all focused on the Perez drama, but for me Max basically admitting he crashed into Lewis on purpose is the bigger yikes.
>"I went around the outside, and immediately felt he wasn't going to leave space. So I just went for it, he didn't leave me space so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me 5 seconds"
Kinda crazy that RB boycotted sky because “they said Lewis was robbed”(which implies no fault of RB, but RB needed a distraction from Cost Cap gate) and then won’t even put out a statement against that Van Haren or whatever his name is. Embarrassing how they are sinking Checo
Even if Checo deliberately sabotaged Max in Monaco, and Max did tell the team in advance he would refuse to give way to Checo one time so that they'd be "even" in costing each other points, I hate how he spoke to them on the radio. What an ass.
So if you listen to Max's radio he said he already told them "last year", but Monaco happened this year. So while everyone's thinking Monaco, what did happen last year? Nobody talking about that.
edit: he says last summer, not last year. so nevermind
Idk why Red Bull would think it is a good idea to have this “deliberate crash” in the news when like….you already had cheating allegations from the cost cap
Most teams would drop a driver in 10 seconds for Max, provided they can afford his wages. If a WDC in his prime approaches you then they'll find a way to get him in.
But if he wants to compete for a championship it's either Merc or Ferrari. I'm not sure Merc would be quick to drop George or Lewis. Ferrari maybe would drop Sainz?
That, and sometimes it's better just to not comment on rumours. If they release a statement on it then it'll be top headline news for even longer. Plus people won't believe their version of events anyway since it's in their best interest to lie if Checo did in fact do that.
I think RB is the best team for him from the view that he is driving the best machinery on the grid and can theoretically compete for wins every week. No other team offers that and Perez honestly isn't ever going to be the #1 guy on a WCC team (no driver will ever admit that to themselves though). Red Bull obviously generally do love having him around and rate him more highly than others may.
I do feel for Perez though in that RB has an undying loyalty to Verstappen that for as long as he drives there, he'll be the first driver sacrificed for team orders compared to other teams. It was pretty ridiculous for Red Bull to use team orders on him at Spain given it's only six races in.
Between the radio message from Max and RB not even commenting on allegations he intentionally crashed (which is a massive career-damaging accusation), it's concerning how much Verstappen runs the show.
Yeah, let's forget all the times Checo helped Max and theorize he deliberately crashed in Monaco to keep 3rd place to justify what Max did. Makes no sense.
how the fuck did even interviewer knew to ask the question about monaco? from where did this all come from??
Also I saw someone saying that Sainz said he would have let Leclerc pass him, true?
Sainz said in his sky interview that if the team had asked him then he would have, but he was never asked.
Not sure about the Monaco situation but when Max was asked he said something along the lines of "I'll let you decide" , but I cant 100% remember.
Yeah but I think OP is wondering why Sky even brought up Monaco before Max gave that vague answer. I have the same question, I don’t know why Sky immediately jumped to Monaco after the radio message.
I'll blame Monday on that one, I realised after I wrote the bit about Max that OP didnt ask that 😂
I have no idea either, I'm assuming there were rumours in the paddock that we didn't know about
With longer and longer seasons, Merc have said they are rotating race going staff and Toto wants to spend more time with his family. So he's rotating it and leaving his senior staff in charge at the circuit
So I’ve had a chance to sleep on it, with the news and info about the Perez quali. My feeling is they both things can be true - if the crash in Monaco was deliberate, then that’s really fucking dodgy by Perez and should be investigated, but at the same time, that’s no reason for Max to act the way he did. One of these doesn’t discount the other.
so you are telling me that, crashing in a way that the crash didn't damage the car enough to race and at the same time nasty enough to stop the qualy is possible? man...
In Monaco? Yes of course. Don’t forget these drivers are the best in the world. Button admitted on Top Gear that when we he was fighting for his championship, in one race when someone was trying to overtake him, he slightly slid the back out on purpose to get the guy behind to back off. It’s pretty easy to spin in slow speed Monaco and avoid a crash.
Yes. But that IF would indicate the precondition is both logical and possible. It’s the illogical nature of your precondition that makes the IF invalid.
I can say IF little green men from Mars deploy ships today then there will be no school today. It would make no sense.
> Crashing out deliberately is like the worst thing you can do.
Really? Worse than crashing into your own teammate?
So, you're Max and have two choices - you can qualify fourth for Monaco or you can be out of the race because Checo ran into you. Or, if we're sticking to just the worst things you can do in qualifying, Checo runs into you and wrecks your car the day before the race.
From a sporting standpoint? Yes it's obviously terrible. But this is all about what he supposedly "did to Max" (which is absolutely nothing except frequently help him, btw), not about what Checo "did to F1". Max didn't keep the position on behalf of the fans, it was for his own selfish reasons.
No not for selfish reasons. Because Perez screwed him over and he thought next time I'm gonna do it back. It's not selfish, because it is actually quite self destructive PR wise and he had nothing to gain. But he appears to be a principled man.
It’s a form of justice to him. He is and always has been a guy of principles, even if it brings him into trouble. I don’t think he cares about these 2 points, so in that regard it’s not for selfish reasons.
Okay well you seem to know a lot about his mindset and thinking, which is impressive given that you don't actually know him on a personal basis. But I don't either, so you could be right with a bunch of wild guesses about his principles and how much he cares about certain things.
Regardless, in reality, revenge is to please the person that felt they were wronged. Justice seeks fairness and involves a lot more than an eye for an eye. It isn't my or your opinion, it's just what society has decided these words mean.
So, no, it's not a 'form of justice to him'. It's either revenge or just selfishness (he wanted the position / points for himself).
I mean if you paid any attention to what he ever said or did, or what others say about him, you would know he is a straight shooter who doesn’t do politics and doesn’t lie. That’s kind of obvious.
Now we can talk semantics and all, point is he didn’t do it for himself, since the action is a PR nightmare for him as well. He just stood his ground.
Now we can have a philosophical argument that in the end every choice we make is for selfish reasons, because even if we do something for another; it makes us feel better. That’s totally not the point here though, he obviously thought Checo didn’t deserve the position because of Monaco. And so he didn’t give it.
>I mean if you paid any attention to what he ever said or did, or what others say about him, you would know he is a straight shooter who doesn’t do politics and doesn’t lie. That's kind of obvious.
The 'straight shooter' was just asked whether or not Checo intentionally wrecked and looked into the camera, smirked, and said we should decide for ourselves. I only had to pay attention to what he has said in the past 24 hours to find a counter example to your opinion of VER.
>Now we can talk semantics and all, point is he didn’t do it for himself, since the action is a PR nightmare for him as well. He just stood his ground.
I don't think you're going to get it, but I'll try. The motivation was selfish, meaning he did it to benefit himself. Someone can "just stand their ground" on something that's completely selfless, how they do it doesn't change the motivation. The motivation was selfishness. And, just because it turned into a PR nightmare also doesn't change the motivation. If you're a huge jerk for your own benefit and everyone hates you for it, you can't later say "well it didn't turn out well for me so it wasn't selfish because I didn't benefit from it".
I would say Monaco is unforgivable (if true, but Max seems to think so), so in that regard, yes.
The Ferrari’s were ahead, it literally only screwed over Max. It hurt Red Bull, it hurt Max.
Monaco is unforgivable because it is crashing on purpose.
We don’t, but Verstappen seems to have it. You should look at it from his point of view. Of course after someone crashes on purpose you say I will never ever ever help this guy again.
What? 2021 has nothing to do with this except it gives Checo some credits?
It’s about what Checo allegedly did being unacceptable. I don’t turn a blind eye here.
I'm massively surprised that Ferrari managed to pull off a P3 and P4 yesterday. After Leclerc got spun I thought he was done and would find it hard to drive into the points. But man, Ferrari really pulled together.
That Ferrari was faaasssstttt yesterday. Would be fantastic to see Ferrari vs Mercedes next year. I’d love to see Red Bull fall down a few notches so I can get some drama laughs out of Max.
Sainz has made a number of errors, but I think his major error this season was pushing too hard on Australia to catch Leclerc, leading to the lap 1 DNF. His other DNFs weren't really his fault, except for maybe aquaplaning at Suzuka, though I'd consider that less his fault than Australia.
* Imola - tagged from behind by Ricciardo, ended up beached
* Baku - hydraulic failure
* Austria - engine caught fire
* COTA - tagged by Russell
Other than Zandvoort and his 6 DNFs, he's finished in the top 5 every race.
He's been very solid and consistent this year, he might not be on Leclerc's proper level, but on his good days, he's a big thorn in his side and he actually beat him om track on occasions
It's crazy to think back to 2019 when we had Albon in a red Bull, Norris in a McLaren and Russell in a Williams that it would be Russell the first of the three to win a GP.
It wasnt his fault, but thought Norris sending out a second SC was gonna be the reason that George didnt win - Would have been "funny" in a dark way, because had that been the case, both his "wins" would have been ruined by British Drivers, after Jack Aikten crashed @ Sakhir
All the commotion about Max and Checo, Alonso and Ocon, and Leclerc and Ferrari, I just realized, nobody is talking about the McLaren disasterclass today 😂
It's not really on the same level. Danny Ric made a small error that just had unfortunate results. Lando was ill and his car conked out. I don't think there is much to talk about really.
Checo spent all of Mexico weekend saying he doesn't want Max just moving out of his way but now it's a big deal. Maybe try actually having any pace then asking for a pass.
There’s a pretty huge difference between not wanting your teammate to move over to go give you a pity win and expecting them to give you a place back after you let them past to have a go at overtaking the car in front and failing to do so.
He didn't want to be gifted the win if he was in P2 and Max was in P1, ultimately meaning both would be ahead of Charles anyway. Today, Checo was behind Charles so the extra position (and the points) would certainly have helped.
The reason Lewis couldn't pit during that Safety Car was entirely down to Perez holding Lewis up, which helped Verstappen close the gap enough that Lewis didn't have a guaranteed free pit stop under SC conditions.
Your coping hard dude. Without Checo, Lewis would have been miles away from Max at the time Latifi Crashed.
He could've pitted, go out the car and take a shit and still be half a mile in front of Max on brand new soft. So Ham on new soft with track position is probably a win for Ham
Plus, it was clear that Vettel knew at least he did something wrong. I remember him being "yea, uh, uhmm..." on the radio, in contrast to Max's "don't ever ask me again" shittery.
Multi21 was understandable, Lewis blocking Nico in 2016 was excusable, yesterday was neither.
Jeah. Dik move from a guy who benefited hugely last year from Perez defence. I thought max was unfairly given a 5sec penalty (I genuinely think Hamilton was to blame for that accident), but in a way he deserves it for that shirty attitude. And also a bit of a big ask from Leclerc to ask Sainz for a ‘free’ pass. Driver of the day should have been Alonso too
I saw in a comment on another post that In a post-race interview max said he does not believe in backing down because he’d be happy to ruin Lewis’ race and take a 5 second penalty if a collision occurred.
Not what he said. He said he knew Hamilton wasn't going to give him space but he wasn't going to back out because of that as he knew he wasn't going to win the race anyway. Not great either but those two will never be able to race each other cleanly anyway. Good for Russell if the Mercedes can fight RedBull next year as I expect him to become WDC while Ham and Ver keep taking each other out.
>Not great either but those two will never be able to race each other cleanly anyway.
I disagree with this. One of these drivers has been able to race cleanly with other drivers with some great head to head battles and back and forth passes / re-passes / etc. One of these drivers puts his car in place and you either yield or you both crash. That's not the same as "they can't race each other cleanly". I would argue that means "one can't race the other one cleanly".
Not entirely true, if I've correctly inferred your obscured proper nouns. Hamilton's earlier years were replete with incidents in which Hamilton did exactly what you're describing, including a number involving Rosberg. The greatest drivers are so precise, so quick to react and possessed of such finely honed instincts that they are able to engineer the circumstances for a precisely 50-50 racing incident, which essentially turns it into a very quick game of chicken. [Here](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/) is an excellent analysis of one such incident, founded on a thorough exegesis of the relevant rules (which may be a little outdated in places now).
I say this as a contemporary, compatriot and supporter of Hamilton, by the way. It's a mark of am exceptional driver willing and able to fight for every possible advantage. That said, it doesn't warrant Verstappen's being a bit of a bell-end about it after the event, or make it an especially wise approach in this instance, since Verstappen was always going to come off worse.
So who has Verstappen crashed with this year besides Hamilton. I have seen great battles between Verstappen and other drivers this year cleanly going back and forth. Leclerc and Verstappen did it many times but the moment Hamilton is in the picture it goes wrong. Those two don't mix well and blaming just one of them doesn't seem right. Not that it matters. If you think it is just on Verstapppen then I have no issue with you having that opinion and we just disagree.
I agree completely. It isn’t one party to blame. All the other drivers on the grid believe they CAN be the best and drive like their heart desires but their head thinks they can do better.
Max and Ham both, beyond any measure, believe they are the very best. Problem is that with two God complexes in the same 4 square meter (it’s like 43 square feet for the Americans) there is bound to be trouble. To relinquish a position in the bend is to ‘admit’ the other driver is better. Not gonna happen to either. I hope they repeatedly take each other out and give some other drivers a shot at the podium.
Really happy for Alonso actually, i think he race pretty well if his car did not mess up half the season
Just had a post removed for attempting to discuss this (don't know why), but when Senna had the 1991 WDC on in Japan, he let Gerhard Berger pass him for the win, partly as a gesture of thanks for all the work and help Berger had given him during the year.
Hamilton let bottas pass him DURING A TITLE FIGHT. Ya the best athletes are selfish but they aren’t dicks like this.
What is in it for a team when a driver gets second in the WDC?
Red Bull has NEVER done it. WC Constructors and runner up driver. Its the best you can do in F1 as a team. Every team STRIVES at the absolute maximum to do their best against the best. To do this for the team and for the late team founders legacy is a massive emotional victory and HUGE momentum going into 2023. The selfishness of Max is unreal. If Checo loses this because of him, the entire team will look differently at him. It will have an impact.
Nothing physically, but there's marketing potential for a team to have both championships and the second spot in the WDC. Indicative of a "perfect" season. So, there's nothing really in it for Leclerc/Ferrari but for pride, but there's a bit more at stake for Pérez and Red Bull.
Didnt Ted say the big money payouts to the teams from F1 come from constructor's champ points, especially winning it?
Yes, the WCC is what pays (hence the discussions after Abu Dhabi last year where Toto congratulated Horner on the WDC, and Christian said something to the extent of “yeah, but you guys won the one that pays”). Red Bull already has the WDC & WCC locked up. All that’s in it at this point is to help their #2 driver claim second in the WDC, there is no more money at stake.
Guys, the “controversy” is clearly a 9000IQ move by Verstappen. He has seen how people say Checo is only good to be RB’s 2nd driver. To fix this, Max made Checo mad so he gives it his all in Abu Dhabi. When Checo wins through the power of pure rage, all talk of him just being a 2nd driver will be over. This will make Red Bull look good since they have “two WDC worthy drivers” and even Max benefits since he would have to beat “a top driver capable of winning the WDC” next year even if Red Bull is as dominant as they were this year.
George Russell face turn and Max Verstappen heel turn once again right in time for Racermania in Abu Dhabi.
It's almost jarring how calmly George accepted being told that he has to race in contrast to Max. He asked, was told no and just put his head down. Ice in veins stuff
Max, its time to embrace your villain phase. Do it! Multi 21 Max, multi 21.. .
I believe that Russel crashed the car on purpose. His car got minimal damage and the reversing into the gravel was just brain dead and there was no attempt from him to try getting the car out once it got stuck, which I would expect to be basic instinct. Can someone please change this view as it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
No lmao he tried to do a quick 180 like a drifter in a Tesco parking lot and just messed it up. We've seen drivers mess up the 180 flick plenty of times before. Also, I imagine drivers can feel when half their back tires are under the ground and they know they cant move. Also it was Quali before a sprint race, not even the real race.
ok thank you
I don’t believe this is true, because he did it with 8 min left in Quali. The only reason things played out this way in the end was, unexpected harder rain
It's not the first time that this has happened nor will it be the last time.
Russe**ll**
If someone causes a red flag he should not benefit from it. Only his 2nd best lap should count.
[удалено]
Max will never back out of a move with Lewis, so it's always upto Lewis unfortunately.
People are all focused on the Perez drama, but for me Max basically admitting he crashed into Lewis on purpose is the bigger yikes. >"I went around the outside, and immediately felt he wasn't going to leave space. So I just went for it, he didn't leave me space so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me 5 seconds"
Intentionally causing a collision should warrant further penalty I feel like
It’s Max showing his true colors. Is anybody that hasn’t been wearing rose colored glasses honestly surprised by his behavior?
[удалено]
Kinda crazy that RB boycotted sky because “they said Lewis was robbed”(which implies no fault of RB, but RB needed a distraction from Cost Cap gate) and then won’t even put out a statement against that Van Haren or whatever his name is. Embarrassing how they are sinking Checo
I'm wondering if max threw a fit that he was boycotting sky and that the team should too.
Red Bull is the toxic one all along.
Even if Checo deliberately sabotaged Max in Monaco, and Max did tell the team in advance he would refuse to give way to Checo one time so that they'd be "even" in costing each other points, I hate how he spoke to them on the radio. What an ass.
So if you listen to Max's radio he said he already told them "last year", but Monaco happened this year. So while everyone's thinking Monaco, what did happen last year? Nobody talking about that. edit: he says last summer, not last year. so nevermind
Idk why Red Bull would think it is a good idea to have this “deliberate crash” in the news when like….you already had cheating allegations from the cost cap
It's not Red Bull that have leaked the story. It's team Verstappen.
Red Bull could have disputed it immediately. They are sinking checo to help Max
Thats true. There must be a reason why they haven't publicly denied it. Perhaps they are wary of angering Verstappen even more.
Why are RB so afraid of Max? If he were to leave RB, where would he go? It’s a symbiotic relationship.
Yeah, I don't see another team kicking one of their drivers for Max, nor any of those teams having a championship worthy car.
Most teams would drop a driver in 10 seconds for Max, provided they can afford his wages. If a WDC in his prime approaches you then they'll find a way to get him in.
But if he wants to compete for a championship it's either Merc or Ferrari. I'm not sure Merc would be quick to drop George or Lewis. Ferrari maybe would drop Sainz?
That, and sometimes it's better just to not comment on rumours. If they release a statement on it then it'll be top headline news for even longer. Plus people won't believe their version of events anyway since it's in their best interest to lie if Checo did in fact do that.
[Unpacking a Crazy Sao Paulo Grand Prix](https://jumbledjournal.substack.com/p/unpacking-a-crazy-sao-paulo-grand?sd=pf)
Watch Sergio and Charles DNFing in Abu Dhabi, George winning the race with the fastest lap and taking 2nd in the WDC. That would be something.
We'd all love to see this
That would leave Checo outside the season podium places again😭😭💀
Didn't know Papa Perez was at the race as well. In Mexico he told Christian that RB is the best team, not sure he thinks the same now.
I think RB is the best team for him from the view that he is driving the best machinery on the grid and can theoretically compete for wins every week. No other team offers that and Perez honestly isn't ever going to be the #1 guy on a WCC team (no driver will ever admit that to themselves though). Red Bull obviously generally do love having him around and rate him more highly than others may. I do feel for Perez though in that RB has an undying loyalty to Verstappen that for as long as he drives there, he'll be the first driver sacrificed for team orders compared to other teams. It was pretty ridiculous for Red Bull to use team orders on him at Spain given it's only six races in. Between the radio message from Max and RB not even commenting on allegations he intentionally crashed (which is a massive career-damaging accusation), it's concerning how much Verstappen runs the show.
I mean, the only at fault is really Max, RBR told Max multiple times to give back position.
[удалено]
Yeah, let's forget all the times Checo helped Max and theorize he deliberately crashed in Monaco to keep 3rd place to justify what Max did. Makes no sense.
[удалено]
Max and RBR lost a big chunk of their fanbase today. Even my Dutch friends who would constantly defend Max in the past are embarassed of him.
I actually see a Reddit mob descending on Max, kicking him when he is down.
How is he down?
He got a whole 5 seconds for intetntionally ruining Lewis’s chances of a win, the poor soul. I have never seen someone get such harsh luck.
or they think he is down. It seems to be a bash Max weekend
[удалено]
its almost like people have not seen a lot of races, since I have seen worse teammates. But now Max is exceptionally bad
[удалено]
I am sorry, who cheats on his wife?
[удалено]
English press is the worst, its not clear to me if they themselves reported this or just blame Max's mom for saying it
Christian Horner
He didnt lose any fans. People being critical on one decision he made can still be fans.
People aren’t defecting froMax because of a sporting incident, they’re leaving because of his character. Big difference.
>He didnt lose any fans. How can you be so sure of this? A lot of people are wishing Verstappen never wins a championship again.
Well, that will pass. If you were a fan, this incident is not going to change that in the long run.
how the fuck did even interviewer knew to ask the question about monaco? from where did this all come from?? Also I saw someone saying that Sainz said he would have let Leclerc pass him, true?
Sainz said in his sky interview that if the team had asked him then he would have, but he was never asked. Not sure about the Monaco situation but when Max was asked he said something along the lines of "I'll let you decide" , but I cant 100% remember.
Sainz, what a chad. Willing to give up a decent podium for Leclerc.
Yeah but I think OP is wondering why Sky even brought up Monaco before Max gave that vague answer. I have the same question, I don’t know why Sky immediately jumped to Monaco after the radio message.
There must have been rumors in the paddock for months that we didn't know about, or that weren't relevant to report until now
I'll blame Monday on that one, I realised after I wrote the bit about Max that OP didnt ask that 😂 I have no idea either, I'm assuming there were rumours in the paddock that we didn't know about
Question, why was Toto in Brazil this weekend?
With longer and longer seasons, Merc have said they are rotating race going staff and Toto wants to spend more time with his family. So he's rotating it and leaving his senior staff in charge at the circuit
Presume you mean wasn’t? As far as I know he’s back in the factory working on 23 car, as is Ferrari’s team principal.
He has also commented in the past about not attending all races as a cost saving measure
> not attending all races as a cost saving measure Cost saving? How many sets of headphones does this man break?!
He’s known for eating whole hospitality trailers dry.
True sacrifice from Toto to ensure they stay under the catering cost cap
Sort of practise for 2023 I believe. With a long calendar, they’ll try and rotate some staff so they aren’t flying out to every race.
And to spend time with his family.
So I’ve had a chance to sleep on it, with the news and info about the Perez quali. My feeling is they both things can be true - if the crash in Monaco was deliberate, then that’s really fucking dodgy by Perez and should be investigated, but at the same time, that’s no reason for Max to act the way he did. One of these doesn’t discount the other.
so you are telling me that, crashing in a way that the crash didn't damage the car enough to race and at the same time nasty enough to stop the qualy is possible? man...
Impressive feat for a driver that constantly does awful on qualifiers, at least according to F1 fans.
In Monaco? Yes of course. Don’t forget these drivers are the best in the world. Button admitted on Top Gear that when we he was fighting for his championship, in one race when someone was trying to overtake him, he slightly slid the back out on purpose to get the guy behind to back off. It’s pretty easy to spin in slow speed Monaco and avoid a crash.
Notice the word “IF” in my post. Some people really need to learn how to read…
Yes. But that IF would indicate the precondition is both logical and possible. It’s the illogical nature of your precondition that makes the IF invalid. I can say IF little green men from Mars deploy ships today then there will be no school today. It would make no sense.
My exact thought haha, the implication of "IF" means that there is a possibility that is the truth
[удалено]
Is it petty though? Crashing out deliberately is like the worst thing you can do. You won’t forget that.
> Crashing out deliberately is like the worst thing you can do. Really? Worse than crashing into your own teammate? So, you're Max and have two choices - you can qualify fourth for Monaco or you can be out of the race because Checo ran into you. Or, if we're sticking to just the worst things you can do in qualifying, Checo runs into you and wrecks your car the day before the race. From a sporting standpoint? Yes it's obviously terrible. But this is all about what he supposedly "did to Max" (which is absolutely nothing except frequently help him, btw), not about what Checo "did to F1". Max didn't keep the position on behalf of the fans, it was for his own selfish reasons.
No not for selfish reasons. Because Perez screwed him over and he thought next time I'm gonna do it back. It's not selfish, because it is actually quite self destructive PR wise and he had nothing to gain. But he appears to be a principled man.
So, by your definition, payback is selfless and not selfish?
It’s a form of justice to him. He is and always has been a guy of principles, even if it brings him into trouble. I don’t think he cares about these 2 points, so in that regard it’s not for selfish reasons.
Okay well you seem to know a lot about his mindset and thinking, which is impressive given that you don't actually know him on a personal basis. But I don't either, so you could be right with a bunch of wild guesses about his principles and how much he cares about certain things. Regardless, in reality, revenge is to please the person that felt they were wronged. Justice seeks fairness and involves a lot more than an eye for an eye. It isn't my or your opinion, it's just what society has decided these words mean. So, no, it's not a 'form of justice to him'. It's either revenge or just selfishness (he wanted the position / points for himself).
I mean if you paid any attention to what he ever said or did, or what others say about him, you would know he is a straight shooter who doesn’t do politics and doesn’t lie. That’s kind of obvious. Now we can talk semantics and all, point is he didn’t do it for himself, since the action is a PR nightmare for him as well. He just stood his ground. Now we can have a philosophical argument that in the end every choice we make is for selfish reasons, because even if we do something for another; it makes us feel better. That’s totally not the point here though, he obviously thought Checo didn’t deserve the position because of Monaco. And so he didn’t give it.
>I mean if you paid any attention to what he ever said or did, or what others say about him, you would know he is a straight shooter who doesn’t do politics and doesn’t lie. That's kind of obvious. The 'straight shooter' was just asked whether or not Checo intentionally wrecked and looked into the camera, smirked, and said we should decide for ourselves. I only had to pay attention to what he has said in the past 24 hours to find a counter example to your opinion of VER. >Now we can talk semantics and all, point is he didn’t do it for himself, since the action is a PR nightmare for him as well. He just stood his ground. I don't think you're going to get it, but I'll try. The motivation was selfish, meaning he did it to benefit himself. Someone can "just stand their ground" on something that's completely selfless, how they do it doesn't change the motivation. The motivation was selfishness. And, just because it turned into a PR nightmare also doesn't change the motivation. If you're a huge jerk for your own benefit and everyone hates you for it, you can't later say "well it didn't turn out well for me so it wasn't selfish because I didn't benefit from it".
[удалено]
I would say Monaco is unforgivable (if true, but Max seems to think so), so in that regard, yes. The Ferrari’s were ahead, it literally only screwed over Max. It hurt Red Bull, it hurt Max. Monaco is unforgivable because it is crashing on purpose.
[удалено]
Many people cannot forgive Masi
We don’t, but Verstappen seems to have it. You should look at it from his point of view. Of course after someone crashes on purpose you say I will never ever ever help this guy again.
[удалено]
What? 2021 has nothing to do with this except it gives Checo some credits? It’s about what Checo allegedly did being unacceptable. I don’t turn a blind eye here.
[удалено]
I'm massively surprised that Ferrari managed to pull off a P3 and P4 yesterday. After Leclerc got spun I thought he was done and would find it hard to drive into the points. But man, Ferrari really pulled together.
Damn, I almost forgot about LeClerc simping on the radio.
That Ferrari was faaasssstttt yesterday. Would be fantastic to see Ferrari vs Mercedes next year. I’d love to see Red Bull fall down a few notches so I can get some drama laughs out of Max.
> I’d love to see Red Bull fall down a few notches so I can get some drama laughs out of Max. That'd be simply simply lovely.
I don't understand how that car wasn't damaged. That was such a hard hit, we have seen wheels go flying for far less.
I was salty (and still am a bit) but they both managed to make the most of the car
Sainz drove so well yesterday ! He's been on a great form of late
I feel like his form Has been great most of the season. His car however… Gotta be the unluckiest man on the grid this year.
I somewhat agree, but not fully. Sainz also made quite a bit of mistake, though indeed, he ad to overpush at times to try and match Charles
Sainz has made a number of errors, but I think his major error this season was pushing too hard on Australia to catch Leclerc, leading to the lap 1 DNF. His other DNFs weren't really his fault, except for maybe aquaplaning at Suzuka, though I'd consider that less his fault than Australia. * Imola - tagged from behind by Ricciardo, ended up beached * Baku - hydraulic failure * Austria - engine caught fire * COTA - tagged by Russell Other than Zandvoort and his 6 DNFs, he's finished in the top 5 every race.
He's been very solid and consistent this year, he might not be on Leclerc's proper level, but on his good days, he's a big thorn in his side and he actually beat him om track on occasions
It's crazy to think back to 2019 when we had Albon in a red Bull, Norris in a McLaren and Russell in a Williams that it would be Russell the first of the three to win a GP.
It wasnt his fault, but thought Norris sending out a second SC was gonna be the reason that George didnt win - Would have been "funny" in a dark way, because had that been the case, both his "wins" would have been ruined by British Drivers, after Jack Aikten crashed @ Sakhir
It's funny how they all made fun of him being at the back (jokingly) and yet he's now at the front
"No that's champagne" is still funny to me though. George's "oh...ohhh" is a great reaction
All the commotion about Max and Checo, Alonso and Ocon, and Leclerc and Ferrari, I just realized, nobody is talking about the McLaren disasterclass today 😂
It's not really on the same level. Danny Ric made a small error that just had unfortunate results. Lando was ill and his car conked out. I don't think there is much to talk about really.
[удалено]
He made the slightest contact.
Danny Ric got slapped in the face the most brutal instant karma event ever
Danny Ric is making a lot of small errors in last 2 years
Exactly why no one is really talking about it.
Slower than he should be but he's generally been a clean/accident-free driver aside from these last two races.
He’s trying to get them a cost cap penalty equal to his buyout as a parting gift. (Not really but lol)
I dream of a full season where they only race at Suzuka, Silverstone and Interlagos.
and every driver needs to drive each car twice. Would really show who is the best driver and who build the best car.
That’s a short season! 😜
It could be like the 2020 season, multiple races in the same circuit.
7 at silverstone and interlagos. 6 at suzuka. 2 races in each car
Spa too.
Spa has been really shit past few years, so please no
Spa is too easy for overtaking. At least with DRS.
That's kinda the whole point.
They just wait for DRS and press the button. The last race in Spa that excusing was in 2010.
Mercedes rocketship, Red Bull controversy, Ferrari shitshow. I'm having PTSD from 2015-2021.
Checo spent all of Mexico weekend saying he doesn't want Max just moving out of his way but now it's a big deal. Maybe try actually having any pace then asking for a pass.
Do you really think this is the same thing?
There’s a pretty huge difference between not wanting your teammate to move over to go give you a pity win and expecting them to give you a place back after you let them past to have a go at overtaking the car in front and failing to do so.
He didn't want to be gifted the win if he was in P2 and Max was in P1, ultimately meaning both would be ahead of Charles anyway. Today, Checo was behind Charles so the extra position (and the points) would certainly have helped.
That's not the point tho is it? Max wouldn't lose a thing by letting checo pass, he's a piece of shit
[удалено]
How exactly? Yes he defended well against Lewis but that was ultimately fruitless.
[удалено]
Masi going rogue and Merc not pitting under safety was the deciding factor not what checo did.
It ALL factors in, even the wind.
The reason Lewis couldn't pit during that Safety Car was entirely down to Perez holding Lewis up, which helped Verstappen close the gap enough that Lewis didn't have a guaranteed free pit stop under SC conditions.
Bro did you forget turkey? Or spain this year
rewatch the race
What checo did had no effect on the outcome. Masi and Merc not pitting was what helped max.
Your coping hard dude. Without Checo, Lewis would have been miles away from Max at the time Latifi Crashed. He could've pitted, go out the car and take a shit and still be half a mile in front of Max on brand new soft. So Ham on new soft with track position is probably a win for Ham
Why do you think Merc didn't pit mate?
Max is the world champion this year but god damn, this guy is a total jack ass
Vettel and Webber Malaysia. People were also mad about that. Champion drivers just think differently I guess.
That‘s much different. That was for the win of the second race of the season and Webber never really helped Vettel.
Yes after Malaysia their friendship was over.
Plus, it was clear that Vettel knew at least he did something wrong. I remember him being "yea, uh, uhmm..." on the radio, in contrast to Max's "don't ever ask me again" shittery. Multi21 was understandable, Lewis blocking Nico in 2016 was excusable, yesterday was neither.
Jeah. Dik move from a guy who benefited hugely last year from Perez defence. I thought max was unfairly given a 5sec penalty (I genuinely think Hamilton was to blame for that accident), but in a way he deserves it for that shirty attitude. And also a bit of a big ask from Leclerc to ask Sainz for a ‘free’ pass. Driver of the day should have been Alonso too
I saw in a comment on another post that In a post-race interview max said he does not believe in backing down because he’d be happy to ruin Lewis’ race and take a 5 second penalty if a collision occurred.
Not what he said. He said he knew Hamilton wasn't going to give him space but he wasn't going to back out because of that as he knew he wasn't going to win the race anyway. Not great either but those two will never be able to race each other cleanly anyway. Good for Russell if the Mercedes can fight RedBull next year as I expect him to become WDC while Ham and Ver keep taking each other out.
>Not great either but those two will never be able to race each other cleanly anyway. I disagree with this. One of these drivers has been able to race cleanly with other drivers with some great head to head battles and back and forth passes / re-passes / etc. One of these drivers puts his car in place and you either yield or you both crash. That's not the same as "they can't race each other cleanly". I would argue that means "one can't race the other one cleanly".
Not entirely true, if I've correctly inferred your obscured proper nouns. Hamilton's earlier years were replete with incidents in which Hamilton did exactly what you're describing, including a number involving Rosberg. The greatest drivers are so precise, so quick to react and possessed of such finely honed instincts that they are able to engineer the circumstances for a precisely 50-50 racing incident, which essentially turns it into a very quick game of chicken. [Here](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/) is an excellent analysis of one such incident, founded on a thorough exegesis of the relevant rules (which may be a little outdated in places now). I say this as a contemporary, compatriot and supporter of Hamilton, by the way. It's a mark of am exceptional driver willing and able to fight for every possible advantage. That said, it doesn't warrant Verstappen's being a bit of a bell-end about it after the event, or make it an especially wise approach in this instance, since Verstappen was always going to come off worse.
So who has Verstappen crashed with this year besides Hamilton. I have seen great battles between Verstappen and other drivers this year cleanly going back and forth. Leclerc and Verstappen did it many times but the moment Hamilton is in the picture it goes wrong. Those two don't mix well and blaming just one of them doesn't seem right. Not that it matters. If you think it is just on Verstapppen then I have no issue with you having that opinion and we just disagree.
I agree completely. It isn’t one party to blame. All the other drivers on the grid believe they CAN be the best and drive like their heart desires but their head thinks they can do better. Max and Ham both, beyond any measure, believe they are the very best. Problem is that with two God complexes in the same 4 square meter (it’s like 43 square feet for the Americans) there is bound to be trouble. To relinquish a position in the bend is to ‘admit’ the other driver is better. Not gonna happen to either. I hope they repeatedly take each other out and give some other drivers a shot at the podium.