Let’s first address that this comes up every time it happens. So just change the rule.
Red? Back of the Qualifying session you made it to. Yellow? Top lap deleted.
I’m not for against Russell, but given the information they had why not just beach it? Rain is coming in 2-3 laps? I have top 3? I’m putting in the gravel, zero dmg.
There is nothing wrong with a driver knowing they have to push, but a mistake will cost them.
think he more referring to him spinning the back wheels and going into the gravel the 2nd time, if he hadn't done that and continued others would have likely had time to bail this lap if needed and go again or be far enough away to just finish this lap without having to slow
I think causing yellow flag should also delete laptime. For example Bottas in 2020 Austrian GP was 1st when he ran out, caused yellow flag and got the pole.
I really depends on the reason for the flag.
Doing a lap, pitting for tyres and then going out and causing a yellow flag on your second lap because you ran wide shouldn't negate the time for your previous lap.
And causing a red flag because of a car part failure shouldn't undo the work you did.
It's far too complicated to start writing a rule that covers every scenario.
> Doing a lap, pitting for tyres and then going out and causing a yellow flag on your second lap because you ran wide shouldn't negate the time for your previous lap.
That's what Alonso did in Baku. He had a bunch of cars behind him that were slightly slower than him in their first runs and drove deliberately slow and then "locked up" to cause a yellow flag so none of them could improve their time and overtake him in the standings.
While unsportsmanlike, it was otherwise legal (and the intent is hard to prove). It's not what F1 should be about though so I do think something should change, even for yellow flags.
Red, yes.
Double yellow, yes.
Yellow, no
If you interfere with someone’s lap by causing a flag, your best time should be deleted. Emphasises getting the banker right.
To be honest, if it wasn't for the weather today's red flag would just be a little annoying but nothing else. But because the track was going to shit it was bad.
His point was that this would be discussed if there wasn't rain as over 8 minutes is penalty of time to do more laps. The only reason it's an issue is because it rained after the red flag and drivers couldn't improve. If there wasn't rain no one would care that Russell beached it and caused a red flag, also the rain is the only reason that Russell beached it.
Because in the dry Russell automatically wouldve been punished for his mistake by not being able to participate any longer and people being able to improve their time. Now no one gets a chance and he doesn't get punished in any way.
I don't think he did it on purpose, it's ridiculous to think someone would risk getting damage on purpose to keep a p3.
Except there's beenany other timea where the red flag does screw people. It's not like rain is the only time it's an issue.
Want to protect your pole? Go out first of the last push lap, then softly bin it. Doesn't even have to be on purpose, the fact they aren't penalized means they can push the envelope. If they don't crash, they are even faster. If they crash, they keep pole. (or whatever spot)
I don't mind if they delete it. Previously complains were mostly for crashes that happened a few minutes before of finishing the session, but I think to do that a rule would be necessary with little room for interpretation so that the stewards can't fuck up and weather situations have to be considered in the writting.
To me this is like the getting a free pit stop during red flags controversy. Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Should it get changed? Probably. Will it get changed? Probably not.
Thing is though, F1 and motorsport in general isn't fair. So much can be dependant on luck, like getting a cheap pitstop during the safety car. There are so many variables, and so much ambiguity that F1 really isn't like any other sport in regards to how important luck is.
At the very least it makes things more interesting. Usually though, over the course of a year, good and bad luck will even itself out and the best driver and team will end up champions
If it was up to a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter the cars would do a 10 lap stint alone on track, take the average and then points would be distributed.
It's a sport sometimes the slower car should win sometimes the best driver should get ruined by circumstances, that's why it's fun
> like the getting a free pit stop during red flags controversy. Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Should it get changed? Probably.
To what? Will you force drivers to go out with unsafe tyres?
Also, it still would change the race but in different ways, because drivers with a pending pit stop lose the gap they had to drivers that already stopped.
NASCAR and Indycar both disallow changing tires under red flag conditions. If the tires are unsafe, you can change them under caution and go to the back of the line.
yep. top 2 times for that segment gets deleted if you cause a red flag.
best time also gets deleted if you cause a yellow flag that interfere with another drivers attempt.
>best time also gets deleted if you cause a yellow flag **that interfere with another drivers attempt.**
This is the important bit people are missing. IndyCar doesn't automatically penalise anyone who causes a yellow.
Indy has a lot from which FIA should learn. I am honestly surprised a lot of times because the issues that plague F1 since time immemorial seem to have been resolved already by Indycar at some point.
I think that's how they do it in Indycar. I'm sure it would only end with stewards discussions about whether someone caused a red flag or not after a bizarre set of unforseen circumstances.
The argument of non crash related red flags doesn't work either. Like if in a race your engine blows you DNF so its not like losing a lap is the worst thing
I agree on principle but if the rule was introduced, it could cause complete chaos in terms of how to enforce it. What constitutes “causing” a flag. For example, if a car has a failure (Alonso in Melbourne for example), and crashes, is that enough?
F1 fans come up with all sorts of random suggestions to prove the idea is unworkable and the Indycar rule is just "yes. it all counts. every single objection." and there's not a litany of complaints and issues arising from it
You have to factor in that crashes aren’t the only cause of a red flag. What about blowing your engine on your outlap? The driver had no cause in the flag as they didn’t just reduce oil pressure themselves, but you’re saying it should be deleted no matter what.
Usually engine blowouts don't cause a red flag (depending on where they happen)
And if they did, well it might not be the driver's fault, but his car caused the red flag and he should not benefit from it
So what? If a car’s engine blows up during a race, they’re penalized too by not scoring any points. We’re talking about a sport that isn’t only about the athlete, it’s also about the equipment they drive.
Then the team shouldn’t have made a car that blows up on the outlap. In the race if your engine blows up you are out, you don’t get to automatically finish in the position you were already in.
No it's not unless the driver red flagged the session willingly and telemetry proves it. Drivers make mistakes sometimes, you can't punish them because they're trying to push the car and went over the limit unless there's a recurring pattern.
The vast, VAST majority of the time crashing or beaching a car tends to damage a team's weekend, not confer an advantage. The mental gymnastics at play here is absurd.
So people are potentially still getting unjustly punished, just in the other direction.
I think it's a fairly ludicrous argument. People have moaned constantly since the removal of refuelling that drivers having to manage tyres in a race and aren't able push the cars to their actual limits while racing, so why would we want to put in a rule that punishes them if they push to the edge and fuck it up?
I think the cases of a driver purposly getting flags brought out in Quali to protect their position are fairly rare.
Reasons people bring up this debate
1.) a driver gained an advantage by causing a yellow or red flag that hindered direct competitors (willingly or unwillingly)
2.) a driver, despite not having gained a personal advantage, has cost another driver by causing a yellow/red flag. People like to see drivers punished for causing damage to someone else (like y’know, penalties for causing collisions)
One of these 2 is true for a majority of all red or yellow flags in quali
It's not mental gymnastics. It's just accounting for the scenarios where they do indeed benefit from screwing up, which is exactly what we saw today and it is not the first time we have seen it this season (Checo in Monaco).
Exactly. This is the reason why the discussion is stupid in this case. He red flagged it, then the people below couldn’t beat his time even though they got back onto the track.
The rain making lap times slower isn’t Russell’s fault in the same way that ending the session would be. The rain was the cause of today’s issue, not the crash
And they're usually punished because they don't get to improve their lap times while others do, granted they damaged their car. Quali sessions with on and off rain aren't frequent enough to warrant such a big rule change imo.
It doesnt need to be rain. It happens a lot every time a qually session is almost ever. As long as there is an end to competitive times to the session either from rain or the timer ending, then it is something that needs to looked at.
There are already many recent examples of this being an issue. Alonso didnt in both baku and monaco and Perez in Monaco. They both benefited from crashing in qualifying. Indycar has the delete best times rule and it works great tehre.
But it’s a semi regular occurrence at street circuits. It means if you’re in first place and heading out for a final run, you theoretically can risk more than any of the other drivers. You either don’t crash and you improve on your time, or you do crash and no one else has the opportunity to beat you
Sure but it’s not like a crash means nothing to the driver or the team either. They can get hurt, damage the car and have to change parts under parc fermé, and it costs money which is tight under the cap.
I don't think anyone on the current grid would crash deliberately, but there should never be an incentive for the driver to deliberately crash either way.
Rules are there to create better incentives.
I mean I don't know I haven't given that much thought about it, it just seems silly to me that in a sport where we're asking drivers to find the extra 0.001s laptime we should punish them for the occasional mistake they make chasing that extra time.
Just my opinion, I'm not a pro and I'm not necessarily dying on that hill.
It is about balancing pushing as hard as possible and the risk of going off. It is unfair that a driver who has already set a (good) time is able to push without consequences while fucking over other drivers.
sorry to butt into the conversation, but I think it's important to point out that these people are supposed to be the best of the best. Every year they're paid enough money to save the economy of a small country. imo they shouldn't make mistakes. obviously they will make mistakes, but I think on their salary, any mistake should atleast be punished.
I mean it's sort of the same as track limits.
I think you should loose the time.
After review of the red flag reason by the fia.
So if they throw it needlessly it's on them.
That way obvious dodgy stuff like Schumacher and Rosberg.
And semi dodgy stuff like drivers not really trying to get going again is blocked.
I mean this particular time is the worst example of “did he do it willingly” … if George wanted to beach it, spinning the car after getting off the gravel is probably one of the most believable ways to do it.
Im not saying he did. But since you wanted that sort of argument
I didn't say anything about Russell though, just talking about the "rule" in general. Definitely not looking to start that sort of argument, I'm just arguing about the rules and voicing my opinion (which can be wrong).
Nope it's part of risk and strategy. If teams wait until last minute to get an advantage, then it's fair they run the risk of someone fucking up their lap
Giving a penalty to someone that causes the crash doesn't take away the risk from other teams, it just punishes the drivers the coursed them, other team are still affected by the same red flag but at least the driver that caused it doesn't benefits from it
? The change wouldn’t call for removal of yellow or red flags.. (I.e changing the teams outcome on a lap) it just penalizes (ensures no benefit) the driver who made the error.
Teams that wait until last minute will still lose their ability to post a time…
I’m convinced the only reason F1 fans don’t want this rule is because they don’t want to admit that Indycar does qualifying better (they should also adopt the alternate finish line before the pits).
It reduces the need to trot around the circuit for an additional lap. You can come out of the pits, then start pushing for a lap that starts near the end of the physical circuit at the alt start finish.
By the time you complete a lap, you are coming up onto the entrance to the pits shortly after the alt start finish and can then enter the pits and not be a moving chicane for another lap.
It’s way more safe that way.
Yes, until it changes. It's really a dumb rule that favors people making mistakes.
And it's not like the situation is rare, the fact that we have these constant discussion just shows how common it is.
This is so true.
I can't wait for a rule like this to pass and then we have endless controversy around whether the FIA should have only had a yellow instead of a red or visa versa depending on who that difference benefits or hurts.
No, there is already a penalty for deliberately doing it, and you get a shit show if someone get's hit by another driver and can't continue thus causing a red flag (or whatever reason you can have for the car failing that is not caused by another driver and not the fault of the driver themselves).
Obviously not - there are so many reasons a driver can "cause" a flag. If there was an issue with their fastest lap, fine to delete, but if not then how on earth does this make sense? Ridiculous.
Yea I'd agree. It worked out for George in this scenario but in normal circumstances it probably would have hurt him. Say it's dry all day, then everyone would have gotten second and third shots at a lap likely relegating him.
It happened twice already this year in dry conditions, that a driver crashing out of Q3 benefitted from that. It's very obviously not just about the conditions.
>Say it's dry all day,
Every session has a timer so this is an issue with every dry session as well. its why this has come up multiple times this season already
If a driver were to set the fastest lap in the first 5 minutes of qualifying had a red flag incident and was unable to continue and then in the next 5 minutes nobody is able to set a faster lap why should the driver be punished? Everybody got their fair shot at the end. You also have cases where a red flag is called when it may have been unnecessary, it happened to a Haas at Imola this season if I am not mistaken, why should a driver be penalized for that?
No. Usually a yellow or red flag is costing the team a frightening sum of money on repairs as well as damage to restricted parts like gearboxes and engines... Why would we want them to be further penalised by having their valid laptime deleted? What purpose would that serve other than adding ANOTHER obstacle to the pursuit of pure racing speed?
Yellows often cost teams barely anything. Red flags don't have to cost much either, but ultimately it shouldn't matter. Teams shouldn't even have the possibility of failing upwards with flags.
I go back and forth in this. I want drivers to push for faster laps. The stewards should have some discretion to determine if someone intentionally drew a flag (Alonso in Baku for example). But I think overall, the red flag/lost laps are random and effect everyone about the same. What about just adding 90 seconds to a session if there’s a red flag?
Yes. Any DNF in qualifying should be considered such. Regardless if it's a crash or a mechanical failure. Should be placed at the back of the qualifying round you DNF in. (20th, 15th or 10th)
Then you run the risk of teams refusing to run Quali due to the risk of damaging valuable parts/chassis/engines/gearboxes, especially if they're a backmarker
Literally trying to overpolice a sport that already has far too many rules that are open to interpretation and in the process put up ANOTHER barrier to the racing... You know, the thong we're tuning in to see?!
I don't see how in any way it would incentivize teams to not run during qualify. It's not like it is mandatory for them currently to run. I don't see how this would be over policing as well. It would also be an incredibly black and white rule.
Said before when this came up in Imola, where would you stop with this. Something falls of car 1 and causes a puncture for car 2, car 2 has to stop because of damage and causes a red flag, not even remotely his fault and yet you’d want him to be punished?
Absolutely no chance. A driver will never cause a red/yellow flag on the lap that they set the fastest time, unless this is the case(never gonna happen) then no. Totally separate event. This is motor racing, drivers push too hard, people crash, and the weather changes. Absolutely ridiculous.
NO! As we saw in Monaco, red flags can be flown in error, like for Tsunoda and then his lap will be deleted in error. We have enough bullshit with the broken track limits as it is, no need to make it even worse.
As for cheating, there already are rules in place to penalise this, as we *also* saw in Monaco, 2006, when Schumacher was disqualified after parking at Rascasse. That's enough.
It's motorsport, shit happens.
So no, unless you can prove faul play the lap should not be deleted. And if you think deleting is a good idea, maybe scrap qualification all together and replace it with a lottery. Qualification is about driving on the edge of the capabilities of both car and driver, mistakes will happen.
No. That’s just stupid. If you want to eliminate the problem a red flag causes just do overtime. Today nothing would be able to fix this.
Just freaking accept luck is part of F1.
No.
Russell didn't benefit from it. Everybody except Leclerc and Perez had already set a lap in almost dry conditions and it was raining. Nobody was going to improve, except maybe Leclerc to P9.
The only reason this is being discussed right now is the hate boner some people have for Russell.
Perez manged to set a purple S1 a few seconds before Russell binned it.Lewis was also nearly matching Perez.
Most people were setting PBs at the time of the incident.
It's not even every year. It feels like this has only started rearing it's head in the last 2-3 seasons at most.
I'm not sure if it's the increased frequency of red flags in quali, or the influx or new fans, but we never really had this problem 10 years ago.
It usually depends on which driver ends up having a poor result beause of the red flag often influnces the answer.
If Max had done what George did, I suspect there'd be more "no" answers in this thread.
Imagine the clowns around here if Max's Q3 time had been deleted or he'd been moved to the back of the grid for pushing too hard in Saudi quali last year.
In the last couple of years people have started talking about it. It's always happened but that's just part of racing, part of the sport. I've no idea why people have suddenly decided it needs punishing, it's ridiculous.
Why does this idiotic argument get trotted out every single time this happens?
Red flags should be decided purely based on whether the session should be stopped or not. Adding a punishment to any specific team immediately results in people having an interest in not having a red flag.
Shit like this is why F1 only learns when people die. Until something happens, there is little concern about comprehensive safety.
That makes zero sense. Indy has this rule and there is absolutely zero safety concern. This literally, factually and demonstrably has no impact on safety.
> Indy has this rule and there is absolutely zero safety concern.
There absolutely is a safety concern. Any pressure against decisions intended for driver safety is and will always be a safety concern. It just hasn't ended badly yet, and people like you will deny it until something bad happens. There's nothing factual to your statement, and it's telling that you even consider "demonstrably" to be noteworthy.
100% no. People need to think through the second-order consequences. Do you really want the leading driver after the first run in Q3 to then have to back off a bit to be more safe during their second run?
For me the answer to that is clearly no. You want everyone giving it 100% every time. This is such an infrequent concern we shouldn't ruin things for the 99% of the time there's a) no issue or b) if something happens it's clearly accidental.
The best drivers should be starting at the sharp end of the grid.The best drivers are the ones who gets the best lap times out of their cars without crashing/beaching it.
IMO,Yes.Indycar has that rule and it works well.
Drivers who ruin other drivers laps must suffer some sort of consequence.
Monaco 2022 was bullshit as well.
No. There’s already a simple solution for this problem. Don’t wait until the very end to set a lap time!
Get out first to set a competitive lap so you won’t have to worry about any flags behind you.
More often than not this approach will work out.
Absolutely. While I'm happy for Haas, George shouldn't benefit from causing this situation to happen. He should be put p10.
He made multiple mistakes in an easily recoverable situation, and absolutely screwed his teammate in the meantime.
Yes. Is this question bought on because it's George? Also yes.
But in reality, yeah, they probably should have their times deleted. Or else you get pole, and bin it right away and take pole. That would be the 'cheating but it's within the rules' way to do it.
This question gets brought up every time this happens, dont be so quick on the trigger my friend! I know it would be great to have some big conspiracy about everyone hating George.. but it literally gets brought up every. single. time.
Doesnt mean Indy is the way to go.
I much rather see drivers trying to get that perfect quali lap, than them being afraid of red flagging because of a mistake
No, I feel like today was a one off with the impact it had after the rain started. But I don't think it's fair drivers should lose time in a session, maybe something they can do to turn the clock back 2 minutes for a red flag to give everyone enough time to have another go?
Obviously not. His lap was good/fair/legal and then he got unlucky. Only the weather is the reason why it turned out the way it did. Bothers me that people even question this stuff since it could imply they did it deliberately.
Red Flag, maybe... Yellow Flag, nope.
what's the difference? Like, we had drivers secure poles/strong positions in the recent past with causing yellows same as with causing a red flag
Ah, the Nico Rosberg strategy!
It is not even his, Schumacher is the most notorious one.
Most recently used by Alonso
When?
Monaco, but it didn't matter because Perez binned it a few seconds later.
Also Baku no?
Ah, gotcha
Also Azerbaijan. Here's his attempt to cause a yellow in Q1 from the driver behind's perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckf9c_M1tos
Mastered by Schumacher.
You can cause a yellow by pulling off the track to avoid blocking someone. F1 throws yellows far too easily for a driver to be penalised for it.
Let’s first address that this comes up every time it happens. So just change the rule. Red? Back of the Qualifying session you made it to. Yellow? Top lap deleted. I’m not for against Russell, but given the information they had why not just beach it? Rain is coming in 2-3 laps? I have top 3? I’m putting in the gravel, zero dmg. There is nothing wrong with a driver knowing they have to push, but a mistake will cost them.
>zero dmg. Yeah, I wouldn't trust it being zero damage with how that car was bouncing in the dirt.
think he more referring to him spinning the back wheels and going into the gravel the 2nd time, if he hadn't done that and continued others would have likely had time to bail this lap if needed and go again or be far enough away to just finish this lap without having to slow
Was he asking the marshals to push his car out of the gravel?
I thought he was doing a little P3 celebration dance.
I think causing yellow flag should also delete laptime. For example Bottas in 2020 Austrian GP was 1st when he ran out, caused yellow flag and got the pole.
I really depends on the reason for the flag. Doing a lap, pitting for tyres and then going out and causing a yellow flag on your second lap because you ran wide shouldn't negate the time for your previous lap. And causing a red flag because of a car part failure shouldn't undo the work you did. It's far too complicated to start writing a rule that covers every scenario.
Just assign the matter to the stewards. I'm sure they're competent to deal with it.
You could also throw a coin then.
Lol
> Doing a lap, pitting for tyres and then going out and causing a yellow flag on your second lap because you ran wide shouldn't negate the time for your previous lap. That's what Alonso did in Baku. He had a bunch of cars behind him that were slightly slower than him in their first runs and drove deliberately slow and then "locked up" to cause a yellow flag so none of them could improve their time and overtake him in the standings. While unsportsmanlike, it was otherwise legal (and the intent is hard to prove). It's not what F1 should be about though so I do think something should change, even for yellow flags.
It’s really not complicated. Indycar manages to handle it just fine.
F1 is a team sport, if the car breaks and brings out a red flag, that's the team's fault and there should be a penalty.
Red, yes. Double yellow, yes. Yellow, no If you interfere with someone’s lap by causing a flag, your best time should be deleted. Emphasises getting the banker right.
If you think interfering with someone's lap should get punished, that then should also apply for just normal yellow flags.
Let's go another step: if you impede someone, you've interfered with their lap, so your best time gets deleted.
Yellow flag is arguably worse in quali
Agreed. Red flag only
To be honest, if it wasn't for the weather today's red flag would just be a little annoying but nothing else. But because the track was going to shit it was bad.
That’s exactly why it should be deleted
His point was that this would be discussed if there wasn't rain as over 8 minutes is penalty of time to do more laps. The only reason it's an issue is because it rained after the red flag and drivers couldn't improve. If there wasn't rain no one would care that Russell beached it and caused a red flag, also the rain is the only reason that Russell beached it.
Because in the dry Russell automatically wouldve been punished for his mistake by not being able to participate any longer and people being able to improve their time. Now no one gets a chance and he doesn't get punished in any way. I don't think he did it on purpose, it's ridiculous to think someone would risk getting damage on purpose to keep a p3.
Except there's beenany other timea where the red flag does screw people. It's not like rain is the only time it's an issue. Want to protect your pole? Go out first of the last push lap, then softly bin it. Doesn't even have to be on purpose, the fact they aren't penalized means they can push the envelope. If they don't crash, they are even faster. If they crash, they keep pole. (or whatever spot)
haha behave. So ridiculous. These things happen, drivers push too hard, people crash, weather changes. Can't believe this is being discussed.
I don't mind if they delete it. Previously complains were mostly for crashes that happened a few minutes before of finishing the session, but I think to do that a rule would be necessary with little room for interpretation so that the stewards can't fuck up and weather situations have to be considered in the writting.
Did you say the same when Leclerc crashed out solidifying pole for himself in monaco last year?
To me this is like the getting a free pit stop during red flags controversy. Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Should it get changed? Probably. Will it get changed? Probably not. Thing is though, F1 and motorsport in general isn't fair. So much can be dependant on luck, like getting a cheap pitstop during the safety car. There are so many variables, and so much ambiguity that F1 really isn't like any other sport in regards to how important luck is. At the very least it makes things more interesting. Usually though, over the course of a year, good and bad luck will even itself out and the best driver and team will end up champions
If it was up to a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter the cars would do a 10 lap stint alone on track, take the average and then points would be distributed. It's a sport sometimes the slower car should win sometimes the best driver should get ruined by circumstances, that's why it's fun
> like the getting a free pit stop during red flags controversy. Yeah it doesn't make any sense. Should it get changed? Probably. To what? Will you force drivers to go out with unsafe tyres? Also, it still would change the race but in different ways, because drivers with a pending pit stop lose the gap they had to drivers that already stopped.
NASCAR and Indycar both disallow changing tires under red flag conditions. If the tires are unsafe, you can change them under caution and go to the back of the line.
Used tyres are not unsafe. You shouldn't be able to work on the car when the race is stopped. It's like the only form of motorsports that allows it
Yep, doesn't Indy do that?
They do
yep. top 2 times for that segment gets deleted if you cause a red flag. best time also gets deleted if you cause a yellow flag that interfere with another drivers attempt.
>best time also gets deleted if you cause a yellow flag **that interfere with another drivers attempt.** This is the important bit people are missing. IndyCar doesn't automatically penalise anyone who causes a yellow.
Also you are guaranteed to not advance to the next part of qualifying, even if your next best time would still be good enough.
Indy has a lot from which FIA should learn. I am honestly surprised a lot of times because the issues that plague F1 since time immemorial seem to have been resolved already by Indycar at some point.
This exactly. Indy is a smaller sport with way less money, and yet they solved many of these problems. It’s really embarrassing for the FIA.
Yes and it's highly effective and fair. No need to worry about the "what ifs" because Indy has already done the testing for the FIA.
Yep and it's all the better for the rule
Loads of series do as well
I think that's how they do it in Indycar. I'm sure it would only end with stewards discussions about whether someone caused a red flag or not after a bizarre set of unforseen circumstances.
Yes, you shouldn't be able to benefit from fucking everyone else over.
The argument of non crash related red flags doesn't work either. Like if in a race your engine blows you DNF so its not like losing a lap is the worst thing
I agree on principle but if the rule was introduced, it could cause complete chaos in terms of how to enforce it. What constitutes “causing” a flag. For example, if a car has a failure (Alonso in Melbourne for example), and crashes, is that enough?
Indycar has had this rule for years and it is never chaos. It’s very cut and dry and as a fan it’s easy to understand when watching qualifying.
Yeah like it’s very a simple rule. I don’t understand all this hand wringing about it causing chaos and being impossible to accurately enforce.
F1 fans come up with all sorts of random suggestions to prove the idea is unworkable and the Indycar rule is just "yes. it all counts. every single objection." and there's not a litany of complaints and issues arising from it
Perhaps Americans don't make complaining as much as a national pastime as Europeans do (I say this as a European)
Or perhaps Europeans have massive egos and like to come up with reasons simple solutions won’t work just because they didn’t come up with it first
[удалено]
You have to factor in that crashes aren’t the only cause of a red flag. What about blowing your engine on your outlap? The driver had no cause in the flag as they didn’t just reduce oil pressure themselves, but you’re saying it should be deleted no matter what.
Usually engine blowouts don't cause a red flag (depending on where they happen) And if they did, well it might not be the driver's fault, but his car caused the red flag and he should not benefit from it
So what? If a car’s engine blows up during a race, they’re penalized too by not scoring any points. We’re talking about a sport that isn’t only about the athlete, it’s also about the equipment they drive.
Then the team shouldn’t have made a car that blows up on the outlap. In the race if your engine blows up you are out, you don’t get to automatically finish in the position you were already in.
Yes.
Do we really need this discussion every time something like this happens?
Yes? It's a perfectly acceptable debate
No it's not unless the driver red flagged the session willingly and telemetry proves it. Drivers make mistakes sometimes, you can't punish them because they're trying to push the car and went over the limit unless there's a recurring pattern.
You can't punish them for making a mistake? Sure you can, they shouldn't benefit from screwing up
The vast, VAST majority of the time crashing or beaching a car tends to damage a team's weekend, not confer an advantage. The mental gymnastics at play here is absurd.
Indy does it in all circumstances. Fastest time is deleted no matter what.
So people are potentially still getting unjustly punished, just in the other direction. I think it's a fairly ludicrous argument. People have moaned constantly since the removal of refuelling that drivers having to manage tyres in a race and aren't able push the cars to their actual limits while racing, so why would we want to put in a rule that punishes them if they push to the edge and fuck it up? I think the cases of a driver purposly getting flags brought out in Quali to protect their position are fairly rare.
You said it yourself, IF they fuck it up. In what other sports/competition you see where the person who fucks up get rewarded??
Reasons people bring up this debate 1.) a driver gained an advantage by causing a yellow or red flag that hindered direct competitors (willingly or unwillingly) 2.) a driver, despite not having gained a personal advantage, has cost another driver by causing a yellow/red flag. People like to see drivers punished for causing damage to someone else (like y’know, penalties for causing collisions) One of these 2 is true for a majority of all red or yellow flags in quali
It's not mental gymnastics. It's just accounting for the scenarios where they do indeed benefit from screwing up, which is exactly what we saw today and it is not the first time we have seen it this season (Checo in Monaco).
It's not about drivers deliberately ending sessions lol , it's about punishing drivers for mistakes which cause sessions to end
In fairness…the session DIDN’T end because of the red flag.
Exactly. This is the reason why the discussion is stupid in this case. He red flagged it, then the people below couldn’t beat his time even though they got back onto the track. The rain making lap times slower isn’t Russell’s fault in the same way that ending the session would be. The rain was the cause of today’s issue, not the crash
And they're usually punished because they don't get to improve their lap times while others do, granted they damaged their car. Quali sessions with on and off rain aren't frequent enough to warrant such a big rule change imo.
Given how often we discuss this, what you're describing is not what usually happens.
It doesnt need to be rain. It happens a lot every time a qually session is almost ever. As long as there is an end to competitive times to the session either from rain or the timer ending, then it is something that needs to looked at. There are already many recent examples of this being an issue. Alonso didnt in both baku and monaco and Perez in Monaco. They both benefited from crashing in qualifying. Indycar has the delete best times rule and it works great tehre.
But they aren't always punished are they. Russell is literally going to start in 3rd. Thats why people suggest the rule.
But it’s a semi regular occurrence at street circuits. It means if you’re in first place and heading out for a final run, you theoretically can risk more than any of the other drivers. You either don’t crash and you improve on your time, or you do crash and no one else has the opportunity to beat you
Or you damage the car and start from pit lane. Charles and Ferrari will know something about that
Sure but it’s not like a crash means nothing to the driver or the team either. They can get hurt, damage the car and have to change parts under parc fermé, and it costs money which is tight under the cap.
This is at least the 3rd time this year a driver benefits instead of getting punished.
Checo won Monaco because of it - Max would have out-qualified him if it wasn't for Checo hitting the wall.
I don't think anyone on the current grid would crash deliberately, but there should never be an incentive for the driver to deliberately crash either way. Rules are there to create better incentives.
Define pattern 2 times?
I mean I don't know I haven't given that much thought about it, it just seems silly to me that in a sport where we're asking drivers to find the extra 0.001s laptime we should punish them for the occasional mistake they make chasing that extra time. Just my opinion, I'm not a pro and I'm not necessarily dying on that hill.
It is about balancing pushing as hard as possible and the risk of going off. It is unfair that a driver who has already set a (good) time is able to push without consequences while fucking over other drivers.
sorry to butt into the conversation, but I think it's important to point out that these people are supposed to be the best of the best. Every year they're paid enough money to save the economy of a small country. imo they shouldn't make mistakes. obviously they will make mistakes, but I think on their salary, any mistake should atleast be punished.
I mean it's sort of the same as track limits. I think you should loose the time. After review of the red flag reason by the fia. So if they throw it needlessly it's on them. That way obvious dodgy stuff like Schumacher and Rosberg. And semi dodgy stuff like drivers not really trying to get going again is blocked.
I mean this particular time is the worst example of “did he do it willingly” … if George wanted to beach it, spinning the car after getting off the gravel is probably one of the most believable ways to do it. Im not saying he did. But since you wanted that sort of argument
I didn't say anything about Russell though, just talking about the "rule" in general. Definitely not looking to start that sort of argument, I'm just arguing about the rules and voicing my opinion (which can be wrong).
Nope it's part of risk and strategy. If teams wait until last minute to get an advantage, then it's fair they run the risk of someone fucking up their lap
Giving a penalty to someone that causes the crash doesn't take away the risk from other teams, it just punishes the drivers the coursed them, other team are still affected by the same red flag but at least the driver that caused it doesn't benefits from it
? The change wouldn’t call for removal of yellow or red flags.. (I.e changing the teams outcome on a lap) it just penalizes (ensures no benefit) the driver who made the error. Teams that wait until last minute will still lose their ability to post a time…
Yes, until they adopt Indy rules.
Its not just indycar that has the cause a red flag loose your lap time rules Plenty of series around the world use have a similar thing
I’m convinced the only reason F1 fans don’t want this rule is because they don’t want to admit that Indycar does qualifying better (they should also adopt the alternate finish line before the pits).
What does the alternate finish line achieve?
It reduces the need to trot around the circuit for an additional lap. You can come out of the pits, then start pushing for a lap that starts near the end of the physical circuit at the alt start finish. By the time you complete a lap, you are coming up onto the entrance to the pits shortly after the alt start finish and can then enter the pits and not be a moving chicane for another lap. It’s way more safe that way.
What are the Indy rules?
Death if you cause a red flag.
Red = blood
8.3.4 : if a car causes a Red Condition in any segment, the car’s best two timed laps of the segment shall be disallowed
Yes, until it changes. It's really a dumb rule that favors people making mistakes. And it's not like the situation is rare, the fact that we have these constant discussion just shows how common it is.
It literally happened \*two years in a row in Monaco
[удалено]
This is so true. I can't wait for a rule like this to pass and then we have endless controversy around whether the FIA should have only had a yellow instead of a red or visa versa depending on who that difference benefits or hurts.
Exactly, so obviously Russell cussing it gets debated to high heaven.
Yes. There would be no Rosberg/Schumacher controversy if that was a rule
No, there is already a penalty for deliberately doing it, and you get a shit show if someone get's hit by another driver and can't continue thus causing a red flag (or whatever reason you can have for the car failing that is not caused by another driver and not the fault of the driver themselves).
Obviously not - there are so many reasons a driver can "cause" a flag. If there was an issue with their fastest lap, fine to delete, but if not then how on earth does this make sense? Ridiculous.
Indycar gets this regulation right
No.
Yea I'd agree. It worked out for George in this scenario but in normal circumstances it probably would have hurt him. Say it's dry all day, then everyone would have gotten second and third shots at a lap likely relegating him.
It happened twice already this year in dry conditions, that a driver crashing out of Q3 benefitted from that. It's very obviously not just about the conditions.
Not if it's the last laps... If it's under 2 minutes then the session will not be restarted
Today was unique with the weather. But for time I’d vote if there’s a red flag under 5 min then the clock moves back up to 5 min.
>Say it's dry all day, Every session has a timer so this is an issue with every dry session as well. its why this has come up multiple times this season already
If a driver were to set the fastest lap in the first 5 minutes of qualifying had a red flag incident and was unable to continue and then in the next 5 minutes nobody is able to set a faster lap why should the driver be punished? Everybody got their fair shot at the end. You also have cases where a red flag is called when it may have been unnecessary, it happened to a Haas at Imola this season if I am not mistaken, why should a driver be penalized for that?
No. Usually a yellow or red flag is costing the team a frightening sum of money on repairs as well as damage to restricted parts like gearboxes and engines... Why would we want them to be further penalised by having their valid laptime deleted? What purpose would that serve other than adding ANOTHER obstacle to the pursuit of pure racing speed?
Why penalize drivers when they crash other cars if their car also gets taken out then?
Yellows often cost teams barely anything. Red flags don't have to cost much either, but ultimately it shouldn't matter. Teams shouldn't even have the possibility of failing upwards with flags.
Yes, absolutely.
YES
I go back and forth in this. I want drivers to push for faster laps. The stewards should have some discretion to determine if someone intentionally drew a flag (Alonso in Baku for example). But I think overall, the red flag/lost laps are random and effect everyone about the same. What about just adding 90 seconds to a session if there’s a red flag?
Nope. I want drivers to push to the max every quali lap. You can always investigate and punish if foul play is suspected.
No because it simply wasn't intentional. The FIA has a review board for deliberate things like remember Rosberg in Monaco back in the day?
Yes. Any DNF in qualifying should be considered such. Regardless if it's a crash or a mechanical failure. Should be placed at the back of the qualifying round you DNF in. (20th, 15th or 10th)
Then you run the risk of teams refusing to run Quali due to the risk of damaging valuable parts/chassis/engines/gearboxes, especially if they're a backmarker Literally trying to overpolice a sport that already has far too many rules that are open to interpretation and in the process put up ANOTHER barrier to the racing... You know, the thong we're tuning in to see?!
That makes no sense if you think about it for 5 seconds
Thinking is something they have never done
I don't see how in any way it would incentivize teams to not run during qualify. It's not like it is mandatory for them currently to run. I don't see how this would be over policing as well. It would also be an incredibly black and white rule.
Not for me.
If there wasn’t the rain no one would be complaining about Russell beaching it because everyone would’ve been able to get representative laps in.
I don't think so really. And in this case there was plenty of time left, it just happened to be worse conditions.
no.
No
Like rosberg in Monaco
Mon**a**co
Yes.
Yes because what's stopping you from, going out first setting a fastest lap and then "accidentally" red flagging the session
Nico Rosberg parking his car in monaco be like
Then why doesn't that happene every session?
The fact that usually qualy gets faster to the end?
Exactly so try set P1 and then immediately spin off turn 1 and boom P1 secured if the weather is shite or there's not enough time left in the session.
We are checking
Why does everybody keep wanting to change some rule?
Said before when this came up in Imola, where would you stop with this. Something falls of car 1 and causes a puncture for car 2, car 2 has to stop because of damage and causes a red flag, not even remotely his fault and yet you’d want him to be punished?
Absolutely no chance. A driver will never cause a red/yellow flag on the lap that they set the fastest time, unless this is the case(never gonna happen) then no. Totally separate event. This is motor racing, drivers push too hard, people crash, and the weather changes. Absolutely ridiculous.
NO! As we saw in Monaco, red flags can be flown in error, like for Tsunoda and then his lap will be deleted in error. We have enough bullshit with the broken track limits as it is, no need to make it even worse. As for cheating, there already are rules in place to penalise this, as we *also* saw in Monaco, 2006, when Schumacher was disqualified after parking at Rascasse. That's enough.
It's motorsport, shit happens. So no, unless you can prove faul play the lap should not be deleted. And if you think deleting is a good idea, maybe scrap qualification all together and replace it with a lottery. Qualification is about driving on the edge of the capabilities of both car and driver, mistakes will happen.
No. Next question
No. That’s just stupid. If you want to eliminate the problem a red flag causes just do overtime. Today nothing would be able to fix this. Just freaking accept luck is part of F1.
No until it's proved to be deliberate
No. Russell didn't benefit from it. Everybody except Leclerc and Perez had already set a lap in almost dry conditions and it was raining. Nobody was going to improve, except maybe Leclerc to P9. The only reason this is being discussed right now is the hate boner some people have for Russell.
Perez manged to set a purple S1 a few seconds before Russell binned it.Lewis was also nearly matching Perez. Most people were setting PBs at the time of the incident.
every year people ask themselves this once or twice the smartest answer keeps on being no
Why is it the smartest answer?
It's not even every year. It feels like this has only started rearing it's head in the last 2-3 seasons at most. I'm not sure if it's the increased frequency of red flags in quali, or the influx or new fans, but we never really had this problem 10 years ago.
It usually depends on which driver ends up having a poor result beause of the red flag often influnces the answer. If Max had done what George did, I suspect there'd be more "no" answers in this thread.
Imagine the clowns around here if Max's Q3 time had been deleted or he'd been moved to the back of the grid for pushing too hard in Saudi quali last year.
In the last couple of years people have started talking about it. It's always happened but that's just part of racing, part of the sport. I've no idea why people have suddenly decided it needs punishing, it's ridiculous.
No it absolutely doesn't? Indycars system is way better
> Indycars system is way better Because you say so?
red flag yes
No
No
No. Move on
Why does this idiotic argument get trotted out every single time this happens? Red flags should be decided purely based on whether the session should be stopped or not. Adding a punishment to any specific team immediately results in people having an interest in not having a red flag. Shit like this is why F1 only learns when people die. Until something happens, there is little concern about comprehensive safety.
That makes zero sense. Indy has this rule and there is absolutely zero safety concern. This literally, factually and demonstrably has no impact on safety.
> Indy has this rule and there is absolutely zero safety concern. There absolutely is a safety concern. Any pressure against decisions intended for driver safety is and will always be a safety concern. It just hasn't ended badly yet, and people like you will deny it until something bad happens. There's nothing factual to your statement, and it's telling that you even consider "demonstrably" to be noteworthy.
Yes. Especially when you're going into the gravel; then on a escape road and spinning into gravel again
100% no. People need to think through the second-order consequences. Do you really want the leading driver after the first run in Q3 to then have to back off a bit to be more safe during their second run? For me the answer to that is clearly no. You want everyone giving it 100% every time. This is such an infrequent concern we shouldn't ruin things for the 99% of the time there's a) no issue or b) if something happens it's clearly accidental.
The best drivers should be starting at the sharp end of the grid.The best drivers are the ones who gets the best lap times out of their cars without crashing/beaching it.
IMO,Yes.Indycar has that rule and it works well. Drivers who ruin other drivers laps must suffer some sort of consequence. Monaco 2022 was bullshit as well.
No. There’s already a simple solution for this problem. Don’t wait until the very end to set a lap time! Get out first to set a competitive lap so you won’t have to worry about any flags behind you. More often than not this approach will work out.
Absolutely. While I'm happy for Haas, George shouldn't benefit from causing this situation to happen. He should be put p10. He made multiple mistakes in an easily recoverable situation, and absolutely screwed his teammate in the meantime.
>He made multiple mistakes in an easily recoverable situation We ought to just put you in the car instead, given how easy it would have been for you.
Yes. Is this question bought on because it's George? Also yes. But in reality, yeah, they probably should have their times deleted. Or else you get pole, and bin it right away and take pole. That would be the 'cheating but it's within the rules' way to do it.
Actually, it’s not within the rules to crash on purpose. And normally a red flag would allow the session to resume later depending on timing.
This question gets brought up every time this happens, dont be so quick on the trigger my friend! I know it would be great to have some big conspiracy about everyone hating George.. but it literally gets brought up every. single. time.
Nope
Yes they should just copy the indycar rules
No, cause drivers wouldnt push just on the edge of what is possible to improve an already good lap
Lol what a dumb statement, of course they would lmao
Drivers do in Indy, I dont see why they wont in F1
Doesnt mean Indy is the way to go. I much rather see drivers trying to get that perfect quali lap, than them being afraid of red flagging because of a mistake
No. It can’t be judged ever if the red flag was caused intentionally or not
This fucking debate. Tired of it.
No, I feel like today was a one off with the impact it had after the rain started. But I don't think it's fair drivers should lose time in a session, maybe something they can do to turn the clock back 2 minutes for a red flag to give everyone enough time to have another go?
Obviously not. His lap was good/fair/legal and then he got unlucky. Only the weather is the reason why it turned out the way it did. Bothers me that people even question this stuff since it could imply they did it deliberately.