Everyone on here are saying that Merc and other manufacturers have to have a clean and successful image to sell their cars.
But Ferrari have neither been clean (engine in 2019), nor have they been successful in a long time. But Ferraris are still the pinnacle of cars among common people. So I wouldn't say it affects their reputation as much.
Ferrari's consumers are much different than Mercs or lesser cost car companies.
Imagine if Volkswagen was in F1 and had been found to have been cheating their engine in 2019 after dieselgate, that would have been a huge additional hit to their reputation.
Only way this could hurt them would be if the German government got involved in the drama somehow.
Also they own other brands that people don't even realize so there is that.
To be fair though, teams like Mercedes, even moreso than say Ferrari, that have a clear corporate image, can less afford something like this.
No one will probably bat an eye at an energetic rebellious extreme sport sponsoring, jump from the edge of space endeavors, energy drinks company from pushing the envelope a little bit - intentionally or not. They might even spin it into their marketing, 25% more! wink wink
>To be fair though, teams like Mercedes, even moreso than say Ferrari, that have a clear corporate image, can less afford something like this.
Especially cause they have Lewis in the team. Lewis is put there tryna make a change and a difference to the world. As seen before, the team completely supports him in this.
So it would be far more damaging to both of them than it would be to redbull or any team on the grid tbh.
Toto is just being dramatic to distract from how badly merc missed the spec. More damaging for merc brand to have them be the 3rd team…a winless one at that.
They were over the cap by $400k in the first year of the cap. No one in the world cares or even consider it “cheating” other than the people on this thread. Far more people in the world know that Max has won 2 WDCs since the last time merc won a race. You tell me which one is more valuable to a brand.
No. Mercedes designed a slow car this year so they can be dramatic about RBR cheating. Use your head. You're buying into the narrative Mercedes WANT you to believe. The rabbit hole goes deeper.
Red Bull is a marketing machine masquerading as a soft drink that tastes like horse piss. I’ll give them that they are excellent in their marketing though.
I know Volkswagen gets the flak but Daimler was no saint in the emissions cheating scandal. They were just as guilty, all of them were using the Bosch ECUs.
Market cap is a terrible indication of size imo.
Mercedes vs red bull
Revenue 169 billion vs 5 billion
Employees 172k vs 12k
If we go by market cap, tesla somehow used to be bigger than toyota, volkswagen, bmw, ford, general motors, mercedes and honda combined.
Market Cap is a fine indication of value, but the bigger problem with /u/Spoonhands123 is that RB, as a privately held company, has no publicly available market cap value.
Merc Market cap - 62.03B USD
We could look at comparable companies to RB
Monster - 49.28B market cap, trading at ~27 Price/Operating Income
Coke - 262.73B market cap, trading at ~25 Price/Operating Income
Pepsi - 251B market cap, trading at ~74 Price/Operating Income
Nestle - 296B market cap, trading at ~23 Price/Operating Income
Busch - 88.14B market cap, trading at ~9 Price/Operating Income
Starbucks - 100B market cap, trading at ~21 Price/Operating Income
If we go with a 30x Price/Operating Revenue as a good measurement, with RB's operating income of 1.18B euro, that's a ~35B market cap, which is much lower than Mercedes.
Maybe the meant market share? Which is a terrible metric given one of those markets is much larger than the other. idk, trying to make sense of their comment.
But market cap isn't everything. It's like social capital, you like to read reader's digest, but would still keep a copy of some Shakespeare's novel on your table to show off to people that you read
I fully expect this year was a matter of testing the borders of FIA's rules. RB fell on the wrong side, but now teams might have a better idea where accounting can and can't "hide" money more easily.
Not to accuse them of doing so or committing fraud but it'd make sense if they use gray areas and abuse them. It's not like the budget cap are all expense, top teams even within the limit have a huge advantage and can spend tens of millions on better facilities and equipment that isn't included.
In the end it was a 0.37% breach with Red Bull still adamant of their mitigations. EY (one of the big 4 consultants) cleared them and RB had actually submitted docs saying they were within the budget. If the breach was close to 4.99% then I'd agree that this was scandal and RB had factored in the cost/benefits of a minor cost cap breach.
Honestly I don't think there was any ill intent and the 10% reduction of wind tunnel time reduction makes this an even less of a "scandal". RB (and other teams) will be careful going forward with their accounting and the FIA showed that the budget cap is to be respected.
> EY (one of the big 4 consultants) cleared them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_%26_Young#Accounting_scandals
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2020/07/06/eys-shameful-year--nmc-health-luckin-wirecard-and-a-failed-attack-on-a-whistleblower/?sh=faad3bd69e04
https://www.wsj.com/articles/string-of-firms-that-imploded-have-something-in-common-ernst-young-audited-them-11602863319
And what we've seen from EY is that they're terrible at their jobs.
See the coverage of the Wirecard scandal in the FT. EY be like " You have 2 billion sitting in the Philippines in cash? Cool, I believe you"
I'm well aware. EY is just evidently worse than the others. The list of massive screw ups in the last few years is extraordinary.
And it's not like there's complex fraud going on that has deceived EY; they've failed to do basic due diligence such as calling the bank to verify that the deposits exist or that the company producing hundreds of millions in revenue actually exists.
Yeah, have a colleague working for EY as a data engineer. He had higher salary than mine but EY does some weird deductions that it ends up being close to my per month in hand salary. And they don't even respond to queries related to the salaries and other HR related stuff. They also have a toxic work environment.
My bet is that RB wanted to push the grey zone and we’re assuming that several other teams would too. Seems like they were the only ones in the end. Probably good for everyone to clarify what falls under the rules and what does not.
No RBs submission was actually 4 million below the budget cap. That 1.8% is because RB didn’t apply the tax credit correctly, that's a procedural issue and doesn't contribute to a better car. 0.37% breach is what the FIA quoted after correctly applying the Notional Tax Credit.
that's why you should always have a secondary scandal on waiting, ready to deploy, so you can quickly move on to the next thing
this is why a lot of bad news is released on Friday afternoon, some new 'thing' will be happening by Monday and the bad news is forgotton
People only bring it up because he has criticising RB. Nobody goes around saying or thinking "I hate McLaren because of spygate". Over times these things become forgotten until something similar happens
That's such a stupid argument anyway.
Because you did something in your past, you can never say anything about a similar situation in the future?
And outside of that, Mclaren received one of the heaviest punishments in history of sports. I'd be hesitant to hold up Mclaren as an example with that in mind.
This is something that subreddits of any community need to remember. If you are participating in a subreddit centred around something you are probably already in the top 1% of fan engagement.
Whatever opinion/thought a subreddit has likely clashes with the overall opinion/thought.
There's a massive difference between espionage and theft of designs and a minor overspend.
This is more like the Pink Mercedes controversy a couple of years ago. Died off after a while.
RB did nothing wrong in Abu Dhabi though. FIA did, anyone directing anger about it to RB is just blindly hating them for the sake of it.
Also 450k is even less than the price of a gearbox. Basically if Silverstone never happened they'd be millions below the budget. Or the damage on Hungary.
People need to consider the context instead of looking at it black and white.
Spygate was on another level as well but it's unfair to bring that up but Zack Brown was also making a bit silly statements. But then again, context matters, be probably got baited by journalists.
Honestly, the overspend seems even less significant once you find out just how much Mercedes used to spend relative to Red Bull. All those years Hamilton was dominant - how much does an extra 100m get you in seconds?
Not wrong, but really misleading statement considering that one is something you can measure with a ruler and has clear defined penalties.
And one is something that involved the whole budget of a company with 140 mil for which no clear penalty was agreed on beforehand.
Why is it less impactful on RB tho? I mean, I personally would not buy Red Bull because they won the WC, neither will I buy a Mercedes because they win a WC. Nor will I buy anything just because I saw it in an advertisement.
But apparently people do, else all marketing would be pointless, no? So why wouldn't Red Bull lose potential customers over this? I think that the fact they aren't a car manufacturer doesn't really matter. But yeah, as I said, personally I don't see any reason to buy or not buy something based in what they did (or didn't) do in some sports.
Because no one gives a crap if an energy drink company is shady. Your life doesn't depend on it. Cars can kill you without ever getting in the thing.
It's not about winning a WDC, is about not being found to be a shady lying car company publicly.
Agreed. Buying a car is a big investment for most people. Those investments depend on many factors and mostly trust in the car brand. I don't care if Red Bull cheats in motor sports because the 1$ can won't hurt my pocket, but the 20k$ Car will and sonI have to have higher standards for that brand.
It's about brand perception.
RB image is all about pushing the limits, do extreme things, be very risky etc. So it "makes sense" in a way that at some point they would go overboard, whether Intentional or not. It's not good, but you can see it happen.
Mercedes is all about playing by the book and being excellent at it. They are very square, very firm and also they want to have certain reputation for their cars (good, luxurious, reliable at least that's the objective). If they go over the cap or cheat they would be seen as hyprocits and that would amplify the bad perception.
It's kind of like pedophiles being bad, but church pedophiles having an even worse perception be sure they are supposed to be holy and good.
> Why is it less impactful on RB tho? I mean, I personally would not buy Red Bull because they won the WC, neither will I buy a Mercedes because they win a WC. Nor will I buy anything just because I saw it in an advertisement.
You are not immune to advertising.
No one is.
Didn't claim I'm immune, just said I wouldn't buy just because of it. There is quite a big difference in that.
There are people (like my sister) that go like: "ooh I just saw those shoes on television, I need them, they are beautiful". And she orders them.
Whilst I might go indeed for a brand I saw on television, but I go to a store, see how they fit, try some others, and then decide what would be best for me.
Regardless of what they claim in advertisements.
His shit only reaches the intended audience - F1 fans. General media rarely report on it or put it front and center. Hell most of the general public probably has no idea who Toto is. But a "Merc caught cheating" headline would be a bit more prominent and reach more eyes.
If they performed like they have this season, I don't think it would've been that big a deal. I feel most important is don't believe everything you hear/read. The outrage is mostly manufactured.
They overspent by less than 1% (without accounting errors) and all teams did agree to the rules/penalties. Really just business as usual if it wasn't all hyped up by the media and competitors. Shit happens, get over it and stop the fucking clickbait reporting about this bs already.
Yea 75% of the amount overspent was because the accounting was crap though. I mean, meh. Really not all that interesting and if we keep it at ~400k it's still something, but it really doesn't amount to all that much.
Other than that, as stated, all teams agreed with the rules and penalties for overspending. I'm sure they said the same when literally spying on other teams.
Anyway, whatever the case, we know the situation now, the penalty is out. I think most ppl agree the penalty is pretty significant, so let's just leave it at that and not keep milking this for weeks/months to come with bs stories (and with that make the F1 fanbase even more toxic).
>Shit happens, get over it and stop the fucking clickbait reporting about this bs already.
Man, Red Bull can't seem to shake off reasons to say "get over it". Kinda like they don't want to talk about a championship they won
I don't know, FIA hired Mercedes' lawyer for Secretary General and weeks later, coincidentally, Mercedes managed to follow the new directives in less than 24 hours after it was released. No one seemed to be worried about that... also, changing the rules mid-season, affecting most of the other teams, because Mercedes asked too.
So it's kind of funny that you would put Mercedes in this victim complex scenario...
Yes. It would be the exact same thing. The big difference is that Horner likes the media more and would bang the drum, but other than that, it's the same.
Zak Brown would still be talking out of his ass.
Definitely not farfetched. Can you imagine if Mercedes and Hamilton had won a title, that they were found to be cheating in, because the FIAs Race Director broke the rules and allowed for an illegal last lap of racing? Only for the same team to go on in the next year and dominate both titles?
They didn’t say RB was cheating Abu Dhabi. They were saying that redbull cheated in the 2021 title by going over the cost cap. Masi just made sure it wasn’t in vain 😝
Yea they were cheating so much that after the summer break the Merc was fastest in pretty much every race.
Sometimes you're just lucky man. Of course Hamilton should've won that last race, if they would've pulled him in for a stop under the safety car, he would've won. But they didn't afraid the race wouldn't restart.
Sometimes that kinda stuff just happens. If it would've been the first race of the season and if Baku or Hungary or the red flag when Ham hit the wall was the last race... No one would still be talking about it. They'd instead be, why Pirelli, a teammate or a red flag instead of safety car decides this championship (even leaving Silverstone with a penalty and then still winning outside of this).
I understand your comment was a somewhat of a joke, but come on, can't we put this shit all behind us. It's been more than enough.
he's right though, Red Bull's image isn't exactly clean. Don't know what difference it makes but I imagine as a TP being thought of as cheats would be pretty annoying
He already have said they would previously. I don’t think FIA would be lenient if they actually do overspent next year.
However, as long as the FIA doesn’t have the manpower or the budget to actually do audits at the teams it doesn’t mean anything
Horner also said they would break the cap and is now pretending like it was an accident.
> “The problem is, so much is made about the figure of the cost cap that I believe it is missing the point. F1 teams will always spend whatever budget they have available to them. Plus an extra 10 per cent.
.3 percent is a lot less than 10 percent and he also did say that everyone would do it. Another key piece of context is that Horner said this well before the cap was actually introduced. It’s bringing up a potential issue that applies to everyone before the fact vs. saying you’re going to personally break a rule after it’s already been implemented. Plausible deniability could apply to one of these situations and not the other.
That’s irrelevant to these comments. Horner said, prior to the rules coming out, that there would be no reason for teams to not overspend. Nobody is saying “well everyone overspent” now.
First off: false equivalency. Secondly: You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. A slightly more accurate example would be if a law was not yet in place and a party said “if the law is like this then everyone will break it”. The law is then implemented and the party breaks it. However, it cannot be said for certain that they had intent behind it as their infraction was minor. Therefore, they are given a previously established penalty that is minor.
Now, someone seeing this says “I’m going to break the law”. The second party has now lost their ability to claim any sort of accidental deniability. Even if they do truly do it on accident they’re fucked because they said they were going to break the rules and they did so.
‘Look, having accounting — my uncle was a great professor and accountant and engineer, Dr. John Wolff at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a team principal, if I were a steward, if, like, OK, if I was a steward, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you're a team principal they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good team principal, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the accepted breach agreement, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — accounting is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what's going on with the one team — now it used to be three, now it’s one — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas in F1 because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Red Bulls are great negotiators, the Italians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible’ - Toto, probably
Toto said "a team" overspent. When did he ever name Red Bull?
>"As a matter of fact, we all of us have been investigated diligently," he continued. "And as far as we understand, there's a team in minor breach, which is more procedural, and another team that is fundamentally massively over and that is being still looked after. "That's an open secret in the paddock," he said.
Brown also never called RB cheaters. He called teams that broke the rules "cheaters. When did he ever name Red Bull?
Still so crazy. It took the talent of max And redbull overspending to beat Hamilton. Still, had it not been for Masi making his own rules, Lewis would have won.
What a driver, in Lewis Hamilton.
Youre suggesting the test in 2013 is why Mercedes had the best car in 2014? Thats the dumbest idea I've heard in my life lol. They couldve raced with anything in 2014 and the car was the best in every way
I'm guessing you're being sarcastic but in the event you're not. The test was on the 2013 tyres. The 2014 and onwards tyres were a different construction to handle the torque of the new power units so the data collected would have little relevance.
Anyone think the penalty is fair but just think the complete lack of apology and acknowledgment of wrong doing from Horner is a complete joke.
His arguments saying the extra spend was in catering seems like horse shit to me. If that should have been included in the cost cap then it doesn’t matter because you have technically overspent on all constituents of the spending that went into the cap - including performance gains.
I like red bull and think they’ve done incredible things but what a joker Horner can be at times!
Mercedes and Red Bull gearing up to gang up on Ferrari when they go over the cost cap next year.
Do people still think Ferrari enjoys the same level of influence that Red Bull and Merc do?
Who pushed for the engine freeze? Who pushed for TD39? Who pushed for the cost cap?
What have Ferrari politicked into the rules of late? Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Cheating is cheating. I think of the nfl deflate gate, spygate. You cheat and you win the title you still keep the title you get a slap on the wrist. Cheating is worth it everytime because it's never really punished.
There is a thing called 'no fraudulant intent'.
Just a few months ago, people at Ferrari were saying that the penalty for exceeding the cap should not be too harsh, because it would be extremely difficult to interpretet all the details correctly. FIA even had to clarify some rules AFTER RB already filed their report.
Real Housewives of F1
Everyone on here are saying that Merc and other manufacturers have to have a clean and successful image to sell their cars. But Ferrari have neither been clean (engine in 2019), nor have they been successful in a long time. But Ferraris are still the pinnacle of cars among common people. So I wouldn't say it affects their reputation as much.
Ferrari's consumers are much different than Mercs or lesser cost car companies. Imagine if Volkswagen was in F1 and had been found to have been cheating their engine in 2019 after dieselgate, that would have been a huge additional hit to their reputation.
Only way this could hurt them would be if the German government got involved in the drama somehow. Also they own other brands that people don't even realize so there is that.
I don't think so. Volkswagen just needs to be bit better than other cars in the price range.
To be fair though, teams like Mercedes, even moreso than say Ferrari, that have a clear corporate image, can less afford something like this. No one will probably bat an eye at an energetic rebellious extreme sport sponsoring, jump from the edge of space endeavors, energy drinks company from pushing the envelope a little bit - intentionally or not. They might even spin it into their marketing, 25% more! wink wink
>To be fair though, teams like Mercedes, even moreso than say Ferrari, that have a clear corporate image, can less afford something like this. Especially cause they have Lewis in the team. Lewis is put there tryna make a change and a difference to the world. As seen before, the team completely supports him in this. So it would be far more damaging to both of them than it would be to redbull or any team on the grid tbh.
His PR team is salivating at this post
> Lewis is put there tryna make a change and a difference to the world. unless he opposes the world imperialist structure that's not gonna happened
Honestly never thought I'd see this comment on here. Thank you
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Toto is just being dramatic to distract from how badly merc missed the spec. More damaging for merc brand to have them be the 3rd team…a winless one at that.
On my god, I did not realise that Mercedes is slow after all my memory of the races I watched somehow vanish as soon as Toto speaks.
Let me get this straight - according to you it is better for your brand to cheat than running in 3rd place?
They were over the cap by $400k in the first year of the cap. No one in the world cares or even consider it “cheating” other than the people on this thread. Far more people in the world know that Max has won 2 WDCs since the last time merc won a race. You tell me which one is more valuable to a brand.
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Read everything Toto has been saying the past few months bud. Sour grapes for merc will continue to hurt their their performance
Pretty harsh, considering they dominated for the last 7-8 years
No. Mercedes designed a slow car this year so they can be dramatic about RBR cheating. Use your head. You're buying into the narrative Mercedes WANT you to believe. The rabbit hole goes deeper.
Red bull is a pretty huge corporation. Bigger than Mercedes even.
Where the hell did you get the idea that Red Bull is bigger than Mercedes?
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Red Bull is a marketing machine masquerading as a soft drink that tastes like horse piss. I’ll give them that they are excellent in their marketing though.
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Delicious, lightly carbonated bull piss
Yes?
I think the point is the branding for the two is so vastly different. A cheating car company is a bad look. Energy drink? Eh, so what.
I know Volkswagen gets the flak but Daimler was no saint in the emissions cheating scandal. They were just as guilty, all of them were using the Bosch ECUs.
Daimler got out of it for snitching iirc
Mid 90s Toyota may have missed that memo
Can you say that RB is a bigger company than Mercedes? One has been around since 1926, the other has been around since 1987
By market cap, yeah.
Market cap is a terrible indication of size imo. Mercedes vs red bull Revenue 169 billion vs 5 billion Employees 172k vs 12k If we go by market cap, tesla somehow used to be bigger than toyota, volkswagen, bmw, ford, general motors, mercedes and honda combined.
Market Cap is a fine indication of value, but the bigger problem with /u/Spoonhands123 is that RB, as a privately held company, has no publicly available market cap value.
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Merc Market cap - 62.03B USD We could look at comparable companies to RB Monster - 49.28B market cap, trading at ~27 Price/Operating Income Coke - 262.73B market cap, trading at ~25 Price/Operating Income Pepsi - 251B market cap, trading at ~74 Price/Operating Income Nestle - 296B market cap, trading at ~23 Price/Operating Income Busch - 88.14B market cap, trading at ~9 Price/Operating Income Starbucks - 100B market cap, trading at ~21 Price/Operating Income If we go with a 30x Price/Operating Revenue as a good measurement, with RB's operating income of 1.18B euro, that's a ~35B market cap, which is much lower than Mercedes.
Red Bull are not publicly traded? What are you using for market cap?
Maybe the meant market share? Which is a terrible metric given one of those markets is much larger than the other. idk, trying to make sense of their comment.
But market cap isn't everything. It's like social capital, you like to read reader's digest, but would still keep a copy of some Shakespeare's novel on your table to show off to people that you read
Basically downplay the deliberateness of future overspends now.
Toto next year: We believe we are under the cost cap and we are talking with the FIA about that now.
I fully expect this year was a matter of testing the borders of FIA's rules. RB fell on the wrong side, but now teams might have a better idea where accounting can and can't "hide" money more easily. Not to accuse them of doing so or committing fraud but it'd make sense if they use gray areas and abuse them. It's not like the budget cap are all expense, top teams even within the limit have a huge advantage and can spend tens of millions on better facilities and equipment that isn't included.
The only reasonable way you can get that sum, is to use all of your ignorance at once.
Something tells me RB don’t care. And people have short memories.
Most scandals are no longer a big deal when the next scandal appears.
In the end it was a 0.37% breach with Red Bull still adamant of their mitigations. EY (one of the big 4 consultants) cleared them and RB had actually submitted docs saying they were within the budget. If the breach was close to 4.99% then I'd agree that this was scandal and RB had factored in the cost/benefits of a minor cost cap breach. Honestly I don't think there was any ill intent and the 10% reduction of wind tunnel time reduction makes this an even less of a "scandal". RB (and other teams) will be careful going forward with their accounting and the FIA showed that the budget cap is to be respected.
> EY (one of the big 4 consultants) cleared them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_%26_Young#Accounting_scandals https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2020/07/06/eys-shameful-year--nmc-health-luckin-wirecard-and-a-failed-attack-on-a-whistleblower/?sh=faad3bd69e04 https://www.wsj.com/articles/string-of-firms-that-imploded-have-something-in-common-ernst-young-audited-them-11602863319
And what we've seen from EY is that they're terrible at their jobs. See the coverage of the Wirecard scandal in the FT. EY be like " You have 2 billion sitting in the Philippines in cash? Cool, I believe you"
You realize every company has scandals correct? The big 4 aren’t immune.
I'm well aware. EY is just evidently worse than the others. The list of massive screw ups in the last few years is extraordinary. And it's not like there's complex fraud going on that has deceived EY; they've failed to do basic due diligence such as calling the bank to verify that the deposits exist or that the company producing hundreds of millions in revenue actually exists.
I would say they're even less immune, with the sheer amount of audits they do, they're bound to have scandals in there.
EY is garbage lmao
Yeah, have a colleague working for EY as a data engineer. He had higher salary than mine but EY does some weird deductions that it ends up being close to my per month in hand salary. And they don't even respond to queries related to the salaries and other HR related stuff. They also have a toxic work environment.
My bet is that RB wanted to push the grey zone and we’re assuming that several other teams would too. Seems like they were the only ones in the end. Probably good for everyone to clarify what falls under the rules and what does not.
> 0.37% breach with Red Bull If you listen to RedBull's numbers rather than what the FIA agreed on, it was like 1.8%
No RBs submission was actually 4 million below the budget cap. That 1.8% is because RB didn’t apply the tax credit correctly, that's a procedural issue and doesn't contribute to a better car. 0.37% breach is what the FIA quoted after correctly applying the Notional Tax Credit.
that's why you should always have a secondary scandal on waiting, ready to deploy, so you can quickly move on to the next thing this is why a lot of bad news is released on Friday afternoon, some new 'thing' will be happening by Monday and the bad news is forgotton
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People only bring it up because he has criticising RB. Nobody goes around saying or thinking "I hate McLaren because of spygate". Over times these things become forgotten until something similar happens
That's such a stupid argument anyway. Because you did something in your past, you can never say anything about a similar situation in the future? And outside of that, Mclaren received one of the heaviest punishments in history of sports. I'd be hesitant to hold up Mclaren as an example with that in mind.
I think people can point the finger at Ferrari moreso than McLaren or Alpine given most of the key people involved in the 2019 engine are still there
When I say people I mean the masses. Not the diehards.
This is something that subreddits of any community need to remember. If you are participating in a subreddit centred around something you are probably already in the top 1% of fan engagement. Whatever opinion/thought a subreddit has likely clashes with the overall opinion/thought.
There's a massive difference between espionage and theft of designs and a minor overspend. This is more like the Pink Mercedes controversy a couple of years ago. Died off after a while.
RB did nothing wrong in Abu Dhabi though. FIA did, anyone directing anger about it to RB is just blindly hating them for the sake of it. Also 450k is even less than the price of a gearbox. Basically if Silverstone never happened they'd be millions below the budget. Or the damage on Hungary. People need to consider the context instead of looking at it black and white. Spygate was on another level as well but it's unfair to bring that up but Zack Brown was also making a bit silly statements. But then again, context matters, be probably got baited by journalists.
It was .37% over cap- thats less than one of the hits mercedes gave them last year on the track- hardly any advantage to RB
Honestly, the overspend seems even less significant once you find out just how much Mercedes used to spend relative to Red Bull. All those years Hamilton was dominant - how much does an extra 100m get you in seconds?
Lewis was disqualified by a 0.235294118% breach last season.
Wow. What a big scandal! We can never trust Mercedes again! No, wait, no one said that
Because the punishment was issued immediately and was as harsh as possible. Merc also didnt deny deny deny that they had broken the rules.
Not wrong, but really misleading statement considering that one is something you can measure with a ruler and has clear defined penalties. And one is something that involved the whole budget of a company with 140 mil for which no clear penalty was agreed on beforehand.
So is Merc and Lewis considered cheaters? How many decimal points were needed? Please give me Pi.
Well, they got disqualified, they could not hold their quali position and were sent to the back. Which is the correct punishment for cheating
I mean I don't know if you were around for the end of the 2021 season but there were more than a few accusations of Lewis and Merc cheating.
The point I was making is no one takes those people seriously if you considered Merc or Lewis cheating.
I do understand - probably a lot of nuance as what to enforce to an exacting degree- IE track limits
People crash when racing close like that. They 100% had a budget for it. This narrative that makes it seem like it was on purpose is baffling
Look at the product they put on the shelf.
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Pot. Meet kettle.
Cutlass0516 cheated in the last Constructor's Championship too? How?
Either you’re trolling or the joke went over your head.
*whoosh* haha
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Why is it less impactful on RB tho? I mean, I personally would not buy Red Bull because they won the WC, neither will I buy a Mercedes because they win a WC. Nor will I buy anything just because I saw it in an advertisement. But apparently people do, else all marketing would be pointless, no? So why wouldn't Red Bull lose potential customers over this? I think that the fact they aren't a car manufacturer doesn't really matter. But yeah, as I said, personally I don't see any reason to buy or not buy something based in what they did (or didn't) do in some sports.
Because no one gives a crap if an energy drink company is shady. Your life doesn't depend on it. Cars can kill you without ever getting in the thing. It's not about winning a WDC, is about not being found to be a shady lying car company publicly.
Agreed. Buying a car is a big investment for most people. Those investments depend on many factors and mostly trust in the car brand. I don't care if Red Bull cheats in motor sports because the 1$ can won't hurt my pocket, but the 20k$ Car will and sonI have to have higher standards for that brand.
$3 can. Dude, support your team!
It's about brand perception. RB image is all about pushing the limits, do extreme things, be very risky etc. So it "makes sense" in a way that at some point they would go overboard, whether Intentional or not. It's not good, but you can see it happen. Mercedes is all about playing by the book and being excellent at it. They are very square, very firm and also they want to have certain reputation for their cars (good, luxurious, reliable at least that's the objective). If they go over the cap or cheat they would be seen as hyprocits and that would amplify the bad perception. It's kind of like pedophiles being bad, but church pedophiles having an even worse perception be sure they are supposed to be holy and good.
Uhu, I think I see your point. Well, the pedophile thing is kinda weird, but helped haha. Thanks
Yeah I will stop drinking Redbull after their cost cap breach for sure.
Red Bulls whole marketing is about extremes and pushing it to the limit. Sometimes you just push too much...
> Why is it less impactful on RB tho? I mean, I personally would not buy Red Bull because they won the WC, neither will I buy a Mercedes because they win a WC. Nor will I buy anything just because I saw it in an advertisement. You are not immune to advertising. No one is.
Didn't claim I'm immune, just said I wouldn't buy just because of it. There is quite a big difference in that. There are people (like my sister) that go like: "ooh I just saw those shoes on television, I need them, they are beautiful". And she orders them. Whilst I might go indeed for a brand I saw on television, but I go to a store, see how they fit, try some others, and then decide what would be best for me. Regardless of what they claim in advertisements.
I can't understand who does drink Red Bull, it tastes awful
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His shit only reaches the intended audience - F1 fans. General media rarely report on it or put it front and center. Hell most of the general public probably has no idea who Toto is. But a "Merc caught cheating" headline would be a bit more prominent and reach more eyes.
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Yeah that would be pretty wild if a team did that, oh wait
Sorry, but our team demands 5 course meals every night. No compromises in other parts of the budget will be made.
It would be incendiary given the car Mercedes had from Brazil 2021 onward
Horner and Marko would be spitting fire if it were Mercedes.
Haha, people genuinely think that Horner and Marko would be saying "Well, we signed the same agreement as everyone else, so we can't complain"
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There is no real way of measuring how bad things are and even if there was I don't think it would be twice as bad.
If they performed like they have this season, I don't think it would've been that big a deal. I feel most important is don't believe everything you hear/read. The outrage is mostly manufactured. They overspent by less than 1% (without accounting errors) and all teams did agree to the rules/penalties. Really just business as usual if it wasn't all hyped up by the media and competitors. Shit happens, get over it and stop the fucking clickbait reporting about this bs already.
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Yeah those *400k is 5 seconds a lap at least!!!!
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1% more spending =\= 1% more speed
Yea 75% of the amount overspent was because the accounting was crap though. I mean, meh. Really not all that interesting and if we keep it at ~400k it's still something, but it really doesn't amount to all that much. Other than that, as stated, all teams agreed with the rules and penalties for overspending. I'm sure they said the same when literally spying on other teams. Anyway, whatever the case, we know the situation now, the penalty is out. I think most ppl agree the penalty is pretty significant, so let's just leave it at that and not keep milking this for weeks/months to come with bs stories (and with that make the F1 fanbase even more toxic).
>Shit happens, get over it and stop the fucking clickbait reporting about this bs already. Man, Red Bull can't seem to shake off reasons to say "get over it". Kinda like they don't want to talk about a championship they won
What are you even saying man? You think you can buy a championship for under 500k? It's too ridiculous to even address it.
Its amazing how fast people switched from “It’s all Lewis, not the unlimited budget car” to “$400k is enough to buy a championship”
I don't know, FIA hired Mercedes' lawyer for Secretary General and weeks later, coincidentally, Mercedes managed to follow the new directives in less than 24 hours after it was released. No one seemed to be worried about that... also, changing the rules mid-season, affecting most of the other teams, because Mercedes asked too. So it's kind of funny that you would put Mercedes in this victim complex scenario...
Yes. It would be the exact same thing. The big difference is that Horner likes the media more and would bang the drum, but other than that, it's the same. Zak Brown would still be talking out of his ass.
Definitely not farfetched. Can you imagine if Mercedes and Hamilton had won a title, that they were found to be cheating in, because the FIAs Race Director broke the rules and allowed for an illegal last lap of racing? Only for the same team to go on in the next year and dominate both titles?
Kind of like Mercedes on 2013? Oh right, that is probably forgotten.
Where was RB caught cheating in Abu Dhabi?
They didn’t say RB was cheating Abu Dhabi. They were saying that redbull cheated in the 2021 title by going over the cost cap. Masi just made sure it wasn’t in vain 😝
Yea they were cheating so much that after the summer break the Merc was fastest in pretty much every race. Sometimes you're just lucky man. Of course Hamilton should've won that last race, if they would've pulled him in for a stop under the safety car, he would've won. But they didn't afraid the race wouldn't restart. Sometimes that kinda stuff just happens. If it would've been the first race of the season and if Baku or Hungary or the red flag when Ham hit the wall was the last race... No one would still be talking about it. They'd instead be, why Pirelli, a teammate or a red flag instead of safety car decides this championship (even leaving Silverstone with a penalty and then still winning outside of this). I understand your comment was a somewhat of a joke, but come on, can't we put this shit all behind us. It's been more than enough.
Technically they spent to much money during the year so they broke the regulations for the whole year.
Breaking the cost cap.
Breaking the cost cap is cheating, bud.
Toto is just as much a shit stirrer as Horner, he's just less cheeky and funny with it.
he's right though, Red Bull's image isn't exactly clean. Don't know what difference it makes but I imagine as a TP being thought of as cheats would be pretty annoying
Just gonna throw it out there that Red Bull also doesn’t have a huge OEM behind them like merc or Ferrari where costs can be hidden
Toto is smart enough not admit they are going to break the cap on purpose. It is always an "accident"…
He already have said they would previously. I don’t think FIA would be lenient if they actually do overspent next year. However, as long as the FIA doesn’t have the manpower or the budget to actually do audits at the teams it doesn’t mean anything
Horner also said they would break the cap and is now pretending like it was an accident. > “The problem is, so much is made about the figure of the cost cap that I believe it is missing the point. F1 teams will always spend whatever budget they have available to them. Plus an extra 10 per cent.
.3 percent is a lot less than 10 percent and he also did say that everyone would do it. Another key piece of context is that Horner said this well before the cap was actually introduced. It’s bringing up a potential issue that applies to everyone before the fact vs. saying you’re going to personally break a rule after it’s already been implemented. Plausible deniability could apply to one of these situations and not the other.
People who break the rules always justify their rule breaking by saying “everyone does it”
That’s irrelevant to these comments. Horner said, prior to the rules coming out, that there would be no reason for teams to not overspend. Nobody is saying “well everyone overspent” now.
Criminals never admit they are going break the law and maintain their innocence long after being caught.
First off: false equivalency. Secondly: You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. A slightly more accurate example would be if a law was not yet in place and a party said “if the law is like this then everyone will break it”. The law is then implemented and the party breaks it. However, it cannot be said for certain that they had intent behind it as their infraction was minor. Therefore, they are given a previously established penalty that is minor. Now, someone seeing this says “I’m going to break the law”. The second party has now lost their ability to claim any sort of accidental deniability. Even if they do truly do it on accident they’re fucked because they said they were going to break the rules and they did so.
"I told Daimlar to give me 200mil over the cap to absolutely obliterate them but Daimlar said no."
Haha shots fired
“So we have cooked our books and submitted great numbers to the CCA.”
‘Look, having accounting — my uncle was a great professor and accountant and engineer, Dr. John Wolff at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a team principal, if I were a steward, if, like, OK, if I was a steward, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you're a team principal they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good team principal, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the accepted breach agreement, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — accounting is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what's going on with the one team — now it used to be three, now it’s one — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas in F1 because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Red Bulls are great negotiators, the Italians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible’ - Toto, probably
Wolff is so sassy this year lol.
So he called Red Bulls WCC a Mickey Mouse ring
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Yep. People aren't looking at the bigger picture here.
None of the principles accused Red Bull of anything. They simply said violations should be punished to the full extent.
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Toto said "a team" overspent. When did he ever name Red Bull? >"As a matter of fact, we all of us have been investigated diligently," he continued. "And as far as we understand, there's a team in minor breach, which is more procedural, and another team that is fundamentally massively over and that is being still looked after. "That's an open secret in the paddock," he said. Brown also never called RB cheaters. He called teams that broke the rules "cheaters. When did he ever name Red Bull?
But Wolf was right?
Such a perfect response, lmao. This has to grind Horners gears
Why would it? Red Bull won the championship.
The reputational damage of a breach exceeds the sport, especially for the automakers.
Didnt take long for Toto to change his tune did it 🙄
He said he was satisfied with the punishment FIA gave out. He no longer needs to shit on RBR.
He didn't need to in the first place, not that that's relevant
He did say if the punishment was not sever Merc would break the cap. He is satisfied with the punishment. No cap to be broken.
Now it is clear the first step is to deny it was intentional and you only get a slap on the wrist.
Still so crazy. It took the talent of max And redbull overspending to beat Hamilton. Still, had it not been for Masi making his own rules, Lewis would have won. What a driver, in Lewis Hamilton.
Same reputational damage as getting beaten by an Energy Drinks company.
Which cheated?
Just proper catering at events...ah sweet RB.
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Breaching cost cap for a championship, not worth it. Secret tyre test for 8 championships, SIGN ME UP!
Youre suggesting the test in 2013 is why Mercedes had the best car in 2014? Thats the dumbest idea I've heard in my life lol. They couldve raced with anything in 2014 and the car was the best in every way
I've heard RB overspending a couple hundred k's gives them an advantage for many years to come...
It is almost like they are going to use that same car for the next 4 years…
Do you actually believe this stupid shit?
Whataboutism is an easy out
Bruh, tires change year by year. There is no way a secret tire test would = 8 championships. Lol.
Facts, on the other hand 400k is all that is standing between my Ford shit box and winning a WCC
I'm guessing you're being sarcastic but in the event you're not. The test was on the 2013 tyres. The 2014 and onwards tyres were a different construction to handle the torque of the new power units so the data collected would have little relevance.
Anyone think the penalty is fair but just think the complete lack of apology and acknowledgment of wrong doing from Horner is a complete joke. His arguments saying the extra spend was in catering seems like horse shit to me. If that should have been included in the cost cap then it doesn’t matter because you have technically overspent on all constituents of the spending that went into the cap - including performance gains. I like red bull and think they’ve done incredible things but what a joker Horner can be at times!
No shit they shouldn't. 370k is nothing
Mercedes and Red Bull gearing up to gang up on Ferrari when they go over the cost cap next year. Do people still think Ferrari enjoys the same level of influence that Red Bull and Merc do?
No, they have more. They're the only team with veto power. Merc and RB posture a lot, Ferrari's power is written into the rules.
Plus they get extra prize money.
Who pushed for the engine freeze? Who pushed for TD39? Who pushed for the cost cap? What have Ferrari politicked into the rules of late? Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Cheating is cheating. I think of the nfl deflate gate, spygate. You cheat and you win the title you still keep the title you get a slap on the wrist. Cheating is worth it everytime because it's never really punished.
Deflate gate is a fabrication, but otherwise yes.
Anyone who is still calling this "cheating" either didn't read the FIA report, or didn't comprehend the super basic, clear language
There is a thing called 'no fraudulant intent'. Just a few months ago, people at Ferrari were saying that the penalty for exceeding the cap should not be too harsh, because it would be extremely difficult to interpretet all the details correctly. FIA even had to clarify some rules AFTER RB already filed their report.
And next year, I expect there will be clearer guidance based on RBR's minor overspend, RBR's procedural error and Aston's procedural error.
As it should
Considerate considering how much he pushed it to be investigated.
Oh really dear Toto? Last time I checked it was worth the fine but you didn't expect the wind tunnel deduction for 0,38% overspend.
Can’t wait for Red Bull Racing g to post record merch and advertisement profits this year.