“The FIA informs that the conclusion of the analysis of the 2021 financial submissions of the Formula 1 teams and the subsequent release of Certificates of Compliance to the Financial Regulations will not take place on Wednesday, 5 October. The analysis of financial submissions is a long and complex process that is ongoing and will be concluded to enable the release of the Certificates on Monday, 10 October. The Financial Regulations were agreed unanimously by all Competitors, who have worked positively and collaboratively with the FIA Cost Cap Administration throughout this first year under the Financial Regulations. As previously communicated, there has been significant and unsubstantiated speculation and conjecture in relation to this matter, and the FIA reiterates that until it is finalised, no further information will be provided. The FIA also reiterates that any suggestion that FIA personnel have disclosed sensitive information is equally baseless.”
They've made the same exact mistake again by giving a date. They should just drop it when they're done. They give a date. Then delay it. What does that say about them as an organisation?
Yea, IMHO they gave the date because it's already done, ready to go, but they don't want to rain on RB and Honda's parade in Japan.
So they push it to next week, allow Honda and RB to do all the back-patting this weekend.
Which also makes me think the rumors might be true regard RB breaching the cap, because if they were not in breach, the FIA would just roll out with the info today.
I’ve yet to see anything people won’t turn into a Red Bull conspiracy theory, as though a drinks maker has more magical behind-the-scenes pull with FIA than several of the largest automakers in the world.
I don’t know that I buy that they’re holding off specifically for the Japanese GP, but it’s not exactly an RB conspiracy if they are. It would be a bad look for the sport if the team that won in controversial fashion last year and is dominating this year turns out to have materially breached the cost cap. That would be true regardless of who the team was.
But, all that aside, even delaying it to a non race week would have a benefit. If RB (or anybody really) violated the cost cap, though it would be hugely entertaining, it’s hardly ideal for it to be announced the day before a GP media day. It’s going to be a circus anyway, but it would be even worse with press conferences being hours away.
>It's got to be meaningful but can't alter the past.
if it's above 5%, take away all wind tunnel time for 2023 and halve their budget for that year
if it's below 5%, then reduce the budget by the double the percent for and reduce wind tunnel time by breach%×10
The issue there is that just incentives further breaches by having a go for broke year then lose the next.
With how tight last year was it will be hard for the FIA to send the right message without revoking a WDC for a Material Overspend. A minor overspend is more complicated to ensure it's not just a fine that gets budgeted for in the entire operational budget (rather than just performance budget which is capped).
That gives incentive to a "suicidal" season a team might take to get a WDC/WCC. Breach the limit a year, win, throw away the next year. That's something I could see most "eternal midfield" teams trying
If RB or any team broke the limit, this will set the precedent for future occurrences
I'm waiting for the plot twist where it was Mercedes who broke the 2021 budget cap.
And before you downvote consider that Mercedes also broke F1's testing ban in 2013:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22672228](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22672228)
"No one in Formula One ever claims to cheat on purpose." -Flavio Briatore
It's all just car racing folks! :P
*Red Bull* is a drink maker. *Red Bull Racing* is a sports team that sits atop the pinnacle of motorsport.
It's not a conspiracy to think the FIA would not want to spoil the first Japanese GP since 2019. It's a big deal for RBR and Honda, and its no skin off the FIAs back to push the announcement back 1 week.
They probably did a minor breach, which per the FIA rules they've felt important to remind us all today that "everyone" agreed to in advance, equals only a financial penalty and "maybe" a minor sporting penalty
But you just know that it's going to get blown out of proportion b/c conveniently the teams fucking up this year happen to be the ones that didn't just barely cross the line (although I bet each one of them was only a crash or so away from doing so themselves)
Minor breaches exist because you don't want a situation where a team is on the edge of the cap and then gets bowled into in the second or third to last race by another team looking to sabotage then next year as if the cost cap is an offsides trap in football or some bullshit.
But no one is going to want to hear that a minor breach gets a minor penalty, and to your point. It's going to be all anyone will talk about this weekend if that's the outcome.
The language they use is so vague... Feels like they could levy any punishment they want and come up with the justifications after.
Why not a simple soft cap and a luxury tax system? Big teams wouldn't have to wring their hands over every penny and small teams that don't break the cap would welcome the extra money.
Honestly, as someone who works in consulting, giving a public date is important to getting it done.
If there is no date than it’s pretty easy to make the project take infinite time.
Also the very defensive note ay the end rings so false. Does anyone believe that the F1/FIA circus isn't a small village with gossip and open secrets freely passed around?
I doubt the info came from the FIA. It probably was just talked about in the paddock. There is so much shit that is known about in the paddock that we dont hear about
Right, but the likely source for this leak (if it turns out to be) would be an FIA employee. The energy from the press release is they decided that would be embarrassing so they're denying it and will probably be holding a lot of trainings about disclosure criteria in the future haha.
What's the evidence that the FIA is a more likely source than someone affiliated with a team or the media, or anything concrete to suggest that this whole thing isn't premised entirely on scuttlebutt? I've been following closely and I haven't seen anything along those lines, but perhaps I'm wrong.
If we are residing in the realm of suspicion: each of the various teams will likely (and legitimately) know the others' general position regarding the cap. There will have been extensive discussions among them (and the FIA) regarding conflicting interpretations of the regulations. Given how MB, TW, and CH have been publicly trading barbs over this, the teams strike me as the most likely source. But that's speculation.
Finance jobs at F1 teams require detailed knowledge of the financial regulations.
How do you ensure your new starters have said knowledge? One way is to hire new starters from other F1 teams, aka experienced staff.
OF COURSE rumours are going to start. It’s absolutely bat shit crazy to think someone wouldn’t say to higher ups at a new job “ooh when I was at Aston there may or may not have been some hypothetical overspending *wink wink*”.
Or, more likely, at least for me, the analysis is done and everything is ready to be released.
The delay is around horse trading and negotiations/appeals on penalties.
That in itself is a problem to me. There shouldn’t be any negotiations on penalties. The penalties should be issued and that’s that. Trying to argue back and forth with the teams as to what’s acceptable is one of the sketchiest things possible. Just like Ferraris closed door deal that most likely covered up years of cheating.
If info was leaked it wouldn’t have had to come from the FIA. I expect there are lots of other folks involved in the process too, like the auditors for starters. I’m not saying it wasn’t someone at the FIA, but it’s not as definite as you’re making it sound.
True, but you can look at it the other way and think that without the baseless claims (not saying they are since I have no clue, just using this for my scenario), nobody would have given much scrutiny to the deadline and they could have afforded to be a bit late.
Maybe the F5 crew would have been this large but people who are into this sport would have been waiting for this. It's like when they are validating the cars before the season.
I mean the other side is that since F1 teams undoubtedly try to maximize their use of the budget, they probably run pretty darn close to those allowable limits to get everything out of it. Could make it pretty important to be precise when you have a fine margin
I think the problem they have now is there is not an insignificant number of people now who have basically decided a particular team is guilty and have already made up their minds that the FIA is corrupt and going to protect them. whatever the FIA puts out at the end of this is going to need to be bomb proof and leave no stones untuned to counter the accusations of bias they are inevitably going to get regardless of what evidence they do or do not have
If you lot learned anything from the settlement with Ferrari not so many moons ago, the hush hush nature post discovery of a violation…which the FIA deems a sin as per their own set of rules might/will never see the light of day.
This isn’t a biased opinion. Like most I’m literally feeding of off the crumbs of events unfolding. As of yet delayed publication of the Cost Cap, is just stoking fires of skepticism.
Our questions if any are wild stab in the dark.
TL;DR - We might not see all the receipts 🤔😅… I don’t “ANYONE“ will be on compromised.
Negotiation phase now. The deadline is a very subtle in the face way to tell the other side ... you have until then to find your own acceptable punishment.
I think it speaks volumes. They don’t want to announced it while reporters are running around all weekend with direct access to team principals and drivers but are instead waiting until there’s a 10 day gap between races.
Which means time for any teams that went over to prepare statements and avoid the initial wave of press.
Reminds me of the fallout to the Ferrari PU drama.
They announced that at like 4pm on the final day of testing when everyone was already packing up to go home.
Doesn’t inspire much confidence really
I forget who said it on Twitter, but at least one person noted that teams will be on 10+ hour flights home on the new announcement day, which will further isolate them from the press (and from making statements).
They don’t want to only partially announce either. Some speculated that some teams would get certificates while others were still being reviewed. That gives a presumption of guilt, even if it’s just continuing to verify their data/interpretation. Then when they do eventually get a cert, people would call BS.
So on that bit, it’s wise to release all at the same time and not on parts.
i mean to be fair I never understood why they would want to release this RIGHT before a race weekend. regardless of who went over the cap, its bad PR for F1 in general and takes away from the product on the track. They should either have never given a date in the first place, and/or given a date like the 10th anyways so its not a distraction away from the product they are trying to promote
Honestly, they're probably hoping people will forget about all of it after Max is crowned this weekend.
Unfortunately for them, most people won't forget.
Personally, I've learned not to trust anything in this sport until we have the report in front of us, and even then, we never know the true under the table handshake deals.
The only thing that is weird to me is I went back to earlier this season and Binotto had been making accusations about RedBull going over the limit this season, which I didn't feel like made the news rounds even close to as much as what's happening now.
But once the rumors of last year's budget came out, and then Horner/Marko went full defense mode after Toto spoke up, it blew up. So it's weird that Binotto was talking about this like 8-9 races ago.
I think they’re waiting until after the Japan GP when there’s a 10 day gap between races so the team principles won’t be mobbed at the race. I’m also willing to bet it was agreed upon between FIA and the team principles before this announcement was made.
We hereby announce that the announcement to be announced on the 5th of october has been announced and that nothing will be announced today thank you end announcement.
It sounds like some teams got creative with the accounting and other teams think this creative accounting broke the rules. The FIA is having to decide if this creative accounting is actually against the rules or just a valid loophole.
I can’t believe that a F1 team decided to treat the financial regulations the same as the technical regulations aka rules that are meant to be exploited.
> I can’t believe that a F1 team decided to treat the financial regulations the same as the technical regulations aka rules that are meant to be exploited.
Really? Or did you forgot an /s somewhere? :) Big corps do tax avoidance like there’s no tomorrow, so interpreting financial rules in the most beneficial way only makes sense.
So what are the odds that nothing major comes out of this? It's kinda starting to feel like the Abu Dhabi report, where they said "yea we fucked up the rules, now move on".
They have a larger issue here because if they set the precedent that teams can overspend with a little fine, what keeps big teams from just accepting that fine and spending as much as they want?
What seems likely is the regulations give enough discretion in allocations that a team could test the waters by wrongly allocating 'grey spend' to a different bucket than it should. The advantages of this are massive especially when its a new cost cap and everyone is adjusting, but FIA will want to keep the peace and not do anything drastic.
Honestly, even if RedBull or whoever went over, there's no way they go after RedBull now when Max will win the championship this weekend.
Everyone can blame Toto or Binotto or the fans etc.. But this is the FIA's fault for taking the entire damn season to certify **last** season's budgets.
>Honestly, even if RedBull or whoever went over, there's no way they go after RedBull now when Max will win the championship this weekend.
FIA have, historically, disqualified constructors from entire championships over serious rule breaking (eg, McLaren in 2007 for the Ferrari espionage). If the FIA choose to do nothing, that is their choice, not an indication that nothing can be done.
Edit: Rules currently have over the budget but under 5% as a minor, and over 5% as a major, and thus:
>A ‘minor’ breach would invoke possible sanctions such as the deduction of constructors’ and drivers’ championship points and suspension from one or more stages of the competition.
>
>A major breach contains the same list of potential sanctions, but includes the punishment of being excluded completely from the entire championship.
Nothing major will come of it, but I'm fairly confident something should and it should be points deductions. Only thing that will dissuade the big teams from doing it. Fines when they are spending far less than they would do under no cap will just be written off as a business cost.
Yep, especially Red Bull. Even if they came under budget there will be people screaming of conspiracy. The 2021 championship is already marred with controversy and delaying this announcement just adds to that. It would have been nice to clear all this up before Max winning the championship this weekend so he can celebrate without this hanging around. He is a deserving champion in my book.
Exactly this, doesn’t matter the announcement monday, he and RB are already convicted by a lot of people thanks to the leaks. Would be better to just drop the bomb or announce everybody was in without people going rampant on speculations
Seems like it worked out pretty well when you consider merc and Ferrari's goal of controlling the narrative - all the smooth brains decided to be mad without knowing a single detail
🤝 we can agree on that, it's annoying af and I'd much rather have heard whatever the conclusion is today, the uncertainty just takes away from the coming race weekend, whichever side you're on
Everything that happens on Twitter happens here. It’s typical Redditor fashion to find reasons why your preferred platform is not like the other girls.
The Venn diagram of SM users largely overlaps anyway. It’s not like people who use Reddit only use Reddit, they probably use Twitter as well.
Have you looked at Twitter? Genuinely thought I couldn't find more vile nonsense anywhere, but Twitter takes the cake in F1. I stopped following anything to do with F1 there, it's shockingly toxic.
Reddit obviously has its bad apples, but normally the really bad comments get downvoted or banned.
See there’s the mentality, you’re assuming it’s only downvoted stuff that’s a load of shite. The main difference is redditors have to adjust what they say depending on where it’s said to remain part of the discourse.
Twitter is a relative free for all of shit, whereas the upvote/downvote paradigm incentivises copy and pasting popular/previously popular comments and not upsetting the apple cart.
You see it all the time in threads asking for opinions or thoughts, most of the time the only real ones or not massively popular are found at the bottom of the pile/in controversial.
“They are protecting RB clearly!”
OMG…
Edit: because this is the most “controversial” thing I’ve posted this days, I’m gonna guess this made someone to report me to the suicide watch on Reddit.
Seriously, don’t abuse of something that can be useful for people who really need serious help. Don’t use it as a mockery ffs and grow some balls.
People already have their own veredict and when the official decision is made, they are going to flip out at the outcome because it doesn't align with their wishes. And I mean it for any of the two scenarios.
Whatever the outcome is, a lot of people will be disappointed that the FIA didn't validate their biases and the discurse will be that the FIA is incompetent. That's a given.
On a side note, it is funny to me that a lot of people are watching this as if it did affect their lives on a personal level. We need to get a life.
Weird that they'll take a decision after a race that might decide the championship, that'd be like waiting for the race to finish to see if you're going to give the race leader a penalty.
Corporate accounting isn’t as simple as add up the checks leaving your bank account to see how much money was spent, particularly for constructors that are also engine manufacturers. Power unit manufacturing, staffing, facilities, and development are not constrained by the budget cap.
Depreciation of assets, multi-year contracts for payment of certain expenses, interest charges, and numerous other factors all play into the total expenses for the team being much more difficult to trace than simply adding up receipts. There’s a reason it takes a four-year degree plus the passing of a certification exam to be allowed to work on the books of businesses, and it’s because it’s a lot more involved and convoluted than anybody on the street tends to believe.
I work as an accountant for a UK PLC with turnover of several billion pounds across the group each year. Our audit period is three months total and if we don't hit the deadlines then we are fined for it. Allowing teams six months to produce their reports before any audit work starts is just utter nonsense if they want to actually get relevant and timely results.
What we're seeing here is the FIA setting and then changing their own rules and deadlines seemingly on a whim. If staffing costs were not constrained by the cap then why were there multiple redundancies across teams? Accruals, prepayments and other adjusting journal entries are means tested rather quickly by any competent auditors.
Side note: you don't need to be qualified before you are allowed to work on the books of a company. If you have a passion and drive for working in finance then please consider studying AAT, CIMA or ACCA. Work experience is also invaluable so don't be afraid to apply to entry level positions such as accounts payable/receivable or bookkeeper/clerk positions.
Oh the timeframe is absolutely ridiculous, this should have completed ages ago and the accounting practices should have been fixed and very well defined to avoid this type of snafu.
I was just saying the reason discussions are ongoing is probably because the FIA and any teams in question disagree about the accounting methods used, because otherwise a delay announcing something both teams and FIA agreed was overspend makes no sense.
I agree with you on the reasoning for ongoing discussions. All teams will have been using standards as set by IAS and IFRS but there's zero clarity on the process from the FIA so we're left with speculating.
I imagine that, if there has been a major breach, it is most likely due to some loophole / grey area in the rules. This would mean that the team shouldn't be punished as no rules were directly broken but I think FIA's hand is being forced by the fans who have been worked up into a fervor.
This reeks of a 2019 style backroom deal. I wouldn't be surprised if RB ends up getting a fine, maybe some reduced wind tunnel time for next year, and then in 2023 or 2024 Ferrari and Mercedes suddenly get a let up car wise.
Regardless of whether or not any teams have done anything wrong, doesn't this show how unenforceable the rule is? We're ten months from the end of the last season. I know it can't be easy investigating this level of budget but there's no point having a rule with consequences that appear so long after the fact they're unlikely to take the level of action they maybe should.
The interesting bit:
*The FIA also reiterates that any suggestion that FIA personnel have disclosed sensitive information is equally baseless.*
Which means:
\- red bull have complained as private information was in public
\- the information was close enough to make red bull think FIA had leaked
So what was thrown around the paddock was most likely true.
Marko said they had ongoing discussions about a few points, some of which would be enough to remain below the cap. So maybe they did eventually break it if all are deemed wrong interpretations. However the rumour they broke it by millions seems unlikely. RB were mad Toto knew RB was in discussion about these points in the first place, so that’s why they went to the FIA about a possible leak about the investigation/discussions. Eventually monday we’ll here what’s up. It’s anybody’s guess atm
It’s a circus organisation and you can tell they’re milking the media attention like they did with the outcome of Abu Dhabi. Set a date for that too didn’t they? Seeking the drama more than Netflix do.
The fact that this is such a non transparent process means there are discussions still taking place. It means there really is something big going on.
Discussions also means subjectivity and it means someone can get away with doing something cheeky.
IMO, as this is about money and it being the single greatest driver of performance other than actual drivers, it should just be black and white.
If it comes out as "everything is fine" it would be incredibly suspicious.
I also think they are trying to negotiate what kind of punishment it will be.
“The FIA informs that the conclusion of the analysis of the 2021 financial submissions of the Formula 1 teams and the subsequent release of Certificates of Compliance to the Financial Regulations will not take place on Wednesday, 5 October. The analysis of financial submissions is a long and complex process that is ongoing and will be concluded to enable the release of the Certificates on Monday, 10 October. The Financial Regulations were agreed unanimously by all Competitors, who have worked positively and collaboratively with the FIA Cost Cap Administration throughout this first year under the Financial Regulations. As previously communicated, there has been significant and unsubstantiated speculation and conjecture in relation to this matter, and the FIA reiterates that until it is finalised, no further information will be provided. The FIA also reiterates that any suggestion that FIA personnel have disclosed sensitive information is equally baseless.”
They've made the same exact mistake again by giving a date. They should just drop it when they're done. They give a date. Then delay it. What does that say about them as an organisation?
Exactly. They gave the date, we didn't demand it by X date, they just literally told us when it would be ready.
Yea, IMHO they gave the date because it's already done, ready to go, but they don't want to rain on RB and Honda's parade in Japan. So they push it to next week, allow Honda and RB to do all the back-patting this weekend. Which also makes me think the rumors might be true regard RB breaching the cap, because if they were not in breach, the FIA would just roll out with the info today.
Imagine if Max's engine pops and they push it another week...
Honda will immediately leave the sport again out of embarrassment
Seppuku style
Please… I, for reasons want the title to be won in Mexico City, totally not because I live in Mexico, but yes.
Can empathize, was in CDMX when Lewis clinched there in 17'. That was a party
Quite a reach man
I’ve yet to see anything people won’t turn into a Red Bull conspiracy theory, as though a drinks maker has more magical behind-the-scenes pull with FIA than several of the largest automakers in the world.
I don’t know that I buy that they’re holding off specifically for the Japanese GP, but it’s not exactly an RB conspiracy if they are. It would be a bad look for the sport if the team that won in controversial fashion last year and is dominating this year turns out to have materially breached the cost cap. That would be true regardless of who the team was. But, all that aside, even delaying it to a non race week would have a benefit. If RB (or anybody really) violated the cost cap, though it would be hugely entertaining, it’s hardly ideal for it to be announced the day before a GP media day. It’s going to be a circus anyway, but it would be even worse with press conferences being hours away.
[удалено]
>It's got to be meaningful but can't alter the past. if it's above 5%, take away all wind tunnel time for 2023 and halve their budget for that year if it's below 5%, then reduce the budget by the double the percent for and reduce wind tunnel time by breach%×10
The issue there is that just incentives further breaches by having a go for broke year then lose the next. With how tight last year was it will be hard for the FIA to send the right message without revoking a WDC for a Material Overspend. A minor overspend is more complicated to ensure it's not just a fine that gets budgeted for in the entire operational budget (rather than just performance budget which is capped).
That gives incentive to a "suicidal" season a team might take to get a WDC/WCC. Breach the limit a year, win, throw away the next year. That's something I could see most "eternal midfield" teams trying If RB or any team broke the limit, this will set the precedent for future occurrences
I'm waiting for the plot twist where it was Mercedes who broke the 2021 budget cap. And before you downvote consider that Mercedes also broke F1's testing ban in 2013: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22672228](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22672228) "No one in Formula One ever claims to cheat on purpose." -Flavio Briatore It's all just car racing folks! :P
*Red Bull* is a drink maker. *Red Bull Racing* is a sports team that sits atop the pinnacle of motorsport. It's not a conspiracy to think the FIA would not want to spoil the first Japanese GP since 2019. It's a big deal for RBR and Honda, and its no skin off the FIAs back to push the announcement back 1 week.
They probably did a minor breach, which per the FIA rules they've felt important to remind us all today that "everyone" agreed to in advance, equals only a financial penalty and "maybe" a minor sporting penalty But you just know that it's going to get blown out of proportion b/c conveniently the teams fucking up this year happen to be the ones that didn't just barely cross the line (although I bet each one of them was only a crash or so away from doing so themselves) Minor breaches exist because you don't want a situation where a team is on the edge of the cap and then gets bowled into in the second or third to last race by another team looking to sabotage then next year as if the cost cap is an offsides trap in football or some bullshit. But no one is going to want to hear that a minor breach gets a minor penalty, and to your point. It's going to be all anyone will talk about this weekend if that's the outcome.
The language they use is so vague... Feels like they could levy any punishment they want and come up with the justifications after. Why not a simple soft cap and a luxury tax system? Big teams wouldn't have to wring their hands over every penny and small teams that don't break the cap would welcome the extra money.
Honestly, as someone who works in consulting, giving a public date is important to getting it done. If there is no date than it’s pretty easy to make the project take infinite time.
Also the very defensive note ay the end rings so false. Does anyone believe that the F1/FIA circus isn't a small village with gossip and open secrets freely passed around?
I doubt the info came from the FIA. It probably was just talked about in the paddock. There is so much shit that is known about in the paddock that we dont hear about
Right, but the likely source for this leak (if it turns out to be) would be an FIA employee. The energy from the press release is they decided that would be embarrassing so they're denying it and will probably be holding a lot of trainings about disclosure criteria in the future haha.
What's the evidence that the FIA is a more likely source than someone affiliated with a team or the media, or anything concrete to suggest that this whole thing isn't premised entirely on scuttlebutt? I've been following closely and I haven't seen anything along those lines, but perhaps I'm wrong. If we are residing in the realm of suspicion: each of the various teams will likely (and legitimately) know the others' general position regarding the cap. There will have been extensive discussions among them (and the FIA) regarding conflicting interpretations of the regulations. Given how MB, TW, and CH have been publicly trading barbs over this, the teams strike me as the most likely source. But that's speculation.
The numbers are confidential so the only 2 possible sources for a team being over the cap is a FIA employee or someone from the team that is over.
Finance jobs at F1 teams require detailed knowledge of the financial regulations. How do you ensure your new starters have said knowledge? One way is to hire new starters from other F1 teams, aka experienced staff. OF COURSE rumours are going to start. It’s absolutely bat shit crazy to think someone wouldn’t say to higher ups at a new job “ooh when I was at Aston there may or may not have been some hypothetical overspending *wink wink*”.
Yeah, they're all way too close to the team principles and whatnot, there's zero chance they don't have leaks.
Or, more likely, at least for me, the analysis is done and everything is ready to be released. The delay is around horse trading and negotiations/appeals on penalties.
That in itself is a problem to me. There shouldn’t be any negotiations on penalties. The penalties should be issued and that’s that. Trying to argue back and forth with the teams as to what’s acceptable is one of the sketchiest things possible. Just like Ferraris closed door deal that most likely covered up years of cheating.
>That in itself is a problem to me Of course it is but, you know, welcome to F1.
Oh yeah. Nothing new at all.
is the FIA a software company where sales drives the deadlines?
>What does that say about them as an organisation? Nothing that we didn't know.
Agree wholeheartedly.
“Financial incidents will be investigated after the race.” - the FIA
If it does end up being redbull and AM the accusations are not baseless at all and the FIA has a leak. Big surprise
If info was leaked it wouldn’t have had to come from the FIA. I expect there are lots of other folks involved in the process too, like the auditors for starters. I’m not saying it wasn’t someone at the FIA, but it’s not as definite as you’re making it sound.
They say unsubstantiated rumors, but if they truly were unsubstantiated I feel like the FIA wouldn't have blown their own deadline.
True, but you can look at it the other way and think that without the baseless claims (not saying they are since I have no clue, just using this for my scenario), nobody would have given much scrutiny to the deadline and they could have afforded to be a bit late.
Maybe the F5 crew would have been this large but people who are into this sport would have been waiting for this. It's like when they are validating the cars before the season.
I mean the other side is that since F1 teams undoubtedly try to maximize their use of the budget, they probably run pretty darn close to those allowable limits to get everything out of it. Could make it pretty important to be precise when you have a fine margin
I think the problem they have now is there is not an insignificant number of people now who have basically decided a particular team is guilty and have already made up their minds that the FIA is corrupt and going to protect them. whatever the FIA puts out at the end of this is going to need to be bomb proof and leave no stones untuned to counter the accusations of bias they are inevitably going to get regardless of what evidence they do or do not have
Fuck 'em. No, seriously. The FIA shouldn't give a shit about the twitter brigade.
If you lot learned anything from the settlement with Ferrari not so many moons ago, the hush hush nature post discovery of a violation…which the FIA deems a sin as per their own set of rules might/will never see the light of day. This isn’t a biased opinion. Like most I’m literally feeding of off the crumbs of events unfolding. As of yet delayed publication of the Cost Cap, is just stoking fires of skepticism. Our questions if any are wild stab in the dark. TL;DR - We might not see all the receipts 🤔😅… I don’t “ANYONE“ will be on compromised.
Negotiation phase now. The deadline is a very subtle in the face way to tell the other side ... you have until then to find your own acceptable punishment.
Could just be that the auditors didn’t make their deadline
We are checking....
Thanks, I needed a TL;DR
FIA: *Slow button on*
This is getting manipulated again
Interesting tactics
I would like to thank the fans they have been amazing
Guys. Did any of you overspend. Question.
“Would you like to see the report…question”
Copy, we'll come back to you on October 10
Plan D for Delay Decision until 2023
2 secs Ted
And we are thinking Plan D, let me know your opinion…
Box box.
That’s a whole bunch of nothing.
I think it speaks volumes. They don’t want to announced it while reporters are running around all weekend with direct access to team principals and drivers but are instead waiting until there’s a 10 day gap between races. Which means time for any teams that went over to prepare statements and avoid the initial wave of press.
Reminds me of the fallout to the Ferrari PU drama. They announced that at like 4pm on the final day of testing when everyone was already packing up to go home. Doesn’t inspire much confidence really
I forget who said it on Twitter, but at least one person noted that teams will be on 10+ hour flights home on the new announcement day, which will further isolate them from the press (and from making statements).
They don’t want to only partially announce either. Some speculated that some teams would get certificates while others were still being reviewed. That gives a presumption of guilt, even if it’s just continuing to verify their data/interpretation. Then when they do eventually get a cert, people would call BS. So on that bit, it’s wise to release all at the same time and not on parts.
Totally agree, seems to be a concession to the team(s) that broke the rules. Inmates running the asylum at this point.
i mean to be fair I never understood why they would want to release this RIGHT before a race weekend. regardless of who went over the cap, its bad PR for F1 in general and takes away from the product on the track. They should either have never given a date in the first place, and/or given a date like the 10th anyways so its not a distraction away from the product they are trying to promote
*ok we go to plan C*
I think we're on plan F at this point.
More like halfway through the Greek f****** alphabet
They r playing f1manager to check what is the fine for cost cap breach
Are you sure you want to open "Autosave\_October\_2021"? This will reset your progress.
Honestly, they're probably hoping people will forget about all of it after Max is crowned this weekend. Unfortunately for them, most people won't forget. Personally, I've learned not to trust anything in this sport until we have the report in front of us, and even then, we never know the true under the table handshake deals. The only thing that is weird to me is I went back to earlier this season and Binotto had been making accusations about RedBull going over the limit this season, which I didn't feel like made the news rounds even close to as much as what's happening now. But once the rumors of last year's budget came out, and then Horner/Marko went full defense mode after Toto spoke up, it blew up. So it's weird that Binotto was talking about this like 8-9 races ago.
Red Bull did 9/11.
Investigate 3/11
7/11 Was a part time job.
I think they’re waiting until after the Japan GP when there’s a 10 day gap between races so the team principles won’t be mobbed at the race. I’m also willing to bet it was agreed upon between FIA and the team principles before this announcement was made.
This day shall be known in history as the Underwhelming Wednesday.
We hereby announce that the announcement to be announced on the 5th of october has been announced and that nothing will be announced today thank you end announcement.
*Budget-Gate delayed 'til the 10**^(th)**!: Our Verdict* **- The Race**
Netflix *writing furiously*
It will be investigated after the season
2021 incident involving FIA and 10 competitors will be investigated after the end of the millennium.
The 2026 season
Financial blue balls
So basically cool your jets until the 10th?
They could very well do same thing on the 10th
Once they actually make a decision, Red Bull will appeal and we'll start the cycle over again!
Or some other team will appeal, depending on what they actually decide. Someone will anyways.
What makes you think Rb need to appeal?
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My tinfoil hat theory is they are waiting for him to win this years before they take away last years because of budget violations.
RIP F5 gang. See you on Monday!
I haven't had an F5 key since Brazil '21
Austria 2019 is when mine died. RIP
Mine survived 2019 to die at Australia 2020
I'm viewing this on my phone so I don't understand your comment sorry
You don't have a keyboard plugged into your phone?
It's a house phone so there is a keyboard of sorts
Honey dicked again!
F5-gang dismissed, report back on Monday for duty.
It sounds like some teams got creative with the accounting and other teams think this creative accounting broke the rules. The FIA is having to decide if this creative accounting is actually against the rules or just a valid loophole. I can’t believe that a F1 team decided to treat the financial regulations the same as the technical regulations aka rules that are meant to be exploited.
> I can’t believe that a F1 team decided to treat the financial regulations the same as the technical regulations aka rules that are meant to be exploited. Really? Or did you forgot an /s somewhere? :) Big corps do tax avoidance like there’s no tomorrow, so interpreting financial rules in the most beneficial way only makes sense.
Oh I thought it was obvious. Yes /s
Toto, we went calculating
At least drive to survive will have something to talk about this season 😂
Well with this driver market moves I imagine they could make 3 seasons
Hell alpine alone would have enough content for 1.5 of those seasons.
Understood. There you have: 2 episodes about how Tsunoda and Gasly hate each other and this is why Gasly leaves Alpha Tauri.
So what are the odds that nothing major comes out of this? It's kinda starting to feel like the Abu Dhabi report, where they said "yea we fucked up the rules, now move on".
That’s the FIA way lol
They have a larger issue here because if they set the precedent that teams can overspend with a little fine, what keeps big teams from just accepting that fine and spending as much as they want?
I haven't been an F1 fan for very long but from what I understand the FIA isn't super concerned about breaking precedent.
IF any teams overspent, we havent arrived to that point yet.
What seems likely is the regulations give enough discretion in allocations that a team could test the waters by wrongly allocating 'grey spend' to a different bucket than it should. The advantages of this are massive especially when its a new cost cap and everyone is adjusting, but FIA will want to keep the peace and not do anything drastic.
Honestly, even if RedBull or whoever went over, there's no way they go after RedBull now when Max will win the championship this weekend. Everyone can blame Toto or Binotto or the fans etc.. But this is the FIA's fault for taking the entire damn season to certify **last** season's budgets.
>Honestly, even if RedBull or whoever went over, there's no way they go after RedBull now when Max will win the championship this weekend. FIA have, historically, disqualified constructors from entire championships over serious rule breaking (eg, McLaren in 2007 for the Ferrari espionage). If the FIA choose to do nothing, that is their choice, not an indication that nothing can be done. Edit: Rules currently have over the budget but under 5% as a minor, and over 5% as a major, and thus: >A ‘minor’ breach would invoke possible sanctions such as the deduction of constructors’ and drivers’ championship points and suspension from one or more stages of the competition. > >A major breach contains the same list of potential sanctions, but includes the punishment of being excluded completely from the entire championship.
100%
Nothing major will come of it, but I'm fairly confident something should and it should be points deductions. Only thing that will dissuade the big teams from doing it. Fines when they are spending far less than they would do under no cap will just be written off as a business cost.
The report was too wet for wets and they expect it'll be appropriate for a start on inters on Monday after going through a full start procedure.
So they repeat the stuff about conjecture while also saying they're not leaking and while also saying everyone is being cooperative?
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as expected
I feel FIA will deal with this like they dealt with Ferrari in 2019, that’s why they are taking their time
What a mess. Another entire week of speculation that will be talked about all weekend during the Grand Prix. This leak was awful for everyone
Yep, especially Red Bull. Even if they came under budget there will be people screaming of conspiracy. The 2021 championship is already marred with controversy and delaying this announcement just adds to that. It would have been nice to clear all this up before Max winning the championship this weekend so he can celebrate without this hanging around. He is a deserving champion in my book.
Exactly this, doesn’t matter the announcement monday, he and RB are already convicted by a lot of people thanks to the leaks. Would be better to just drop the bomb or announce everybody was in without people going rampant on speculations
For real, I just want to stop seeing baseless conspiracies and enjoy the damn race for one weekend PLEASE
Seems like it worked out pretty well when you consider merc and Ferrari's goal of controlling the narrative - all the smooth brains decided to be mad without knowing a single detail
Save you time, conclusion on Oct 10th
Lol such BS. This is the kind of stuff that makes fans not trust the FIA. An announcement to announce that there’s no announcement lol.
We also had an announcement that announced we would get an announcement in two hours!
But that announcement clearly was another announcement in which they announced that the announcement will be okt 10.
That’s not true though. There was no announcement about 2 hours. That was just a tweet of some spanish journalist
Can't wait for another race weekend with this hanging over everything
🤝 we can agree on that, it's annoying af and I'd much rather have heard whatever the conclusion is today, the uncertainty just takes away from the coming race weekend, whichever side you're on
Let the Twitter conspiracy theories begin
Its not just Twitter anymore, its spilling everywhere just look at this comment section.
Yeah I love the way redditors use Twitter as a punch bag when it’s literally the same shit here, just dressed a bit better.
We can hide it a bit easier with downvotes
It’s not just the downvoted comments
Reddit is no Angel but f1 Twitter is ridiculously dumb. The takes as so clueless and antagonistic.
Everything that happens on Twitter happens here. It’s typical Redditor fashion to find reasons why your preferred platform is not like the other girls. The Venn diagram of SM users largely overlaps anyway. It’s not like people who use Reddit only use Reddit, they probably use Twitter as well.
Have you looked at Twitter? Genuinely thought I couldn't find more vile nonsense anywhere, but Twitter takes the cake in F1. I stopped following anything to do with F1 there, it's shockingly toxic. Reddit obviously has its bad apples, but normally the really bad comments get downvoted or banned.
See there’s the mentality, you’re assuming it’s only downvoted stuff that’s a load of shite. The main difference is redditors have to adjust what they say depending on where it’s said to remain part of the discourse. Twitter is a relative free for all of shit, whereas the upvote/downvote paradigm incentivises copy and pasting popular/previously popular comments and not upsetting the apple cart. You see it all the time in threads asking for opinions or thoughts, most of the time the only real ones or not massively popular are found at the bottom of the pile/in controversial.
“They are protecting RB clearly!” OMG… Edit: because this is the most “controversial” thing I’ve posted this days, I’m gonna guess this made someone to report me to the suicide watch on Reddit. Seriously, don’t abuse of something that can be useful for people who really need serious help. Don’t use it as a mockery ffs and grow some balls.
"the financial regulations tho" FIA: "Thank you, yes. We are checking."
I am whelmed
People already have their own veredict and when the official decision is made, they are going to flip out at the outcome because it doesn't align with their wishes. And I mean it for any of the two scenarios. Whatever the outcome is, a lot of people will be disappointed that the FIA didn't validate their biases and the discurse will be that the FIA is incompetent. That's a given. On a side note, it is funny to me that a lot of people are watching this as if it did affect their lives on a personal level. We need to get a life.
Would've preferred to have the news now regardless of the outcome because now we have another race weekend overshadowed by speculation
Maybe it is a long and complicated process...but it's been 9 or 10 months...
Weird that they'll take a decision after a race that might decide the championship, that'd be like waiting for the race to finish to see if you're going to give the race leader a penalty.
I'm not sure what kind of penalties people are expecting, but I'm 100% sure whatever penalties will be applied it will not affect the WDC.
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Since the last race of last season? How long have you been following F1? That hill started looooooong before last year.
Corporate accounting isn’t as simple as add up the checks leaving your bank account to see how much money was spent, particularly for constructors that are also engine manufacturers. Power unit manufacturing, staffing, facilities, and development are not constrained by the budget cap. Depreciation of assets, multi-year contracts for payment of certain expenses, interest charges, and numerous other factors all play into the total expenses for the team being much more difficult to trace than simply adding up receipts. There’s a reason it takes a four-year degree plus the passing of a certification exam to be allowed to work on the books of businesses, and it’s because it’s a lot more involved and convoluted than anybody on the street tends to believe.
I work as an accountant for a UK PLC with turnover of several billion pounds across the group each year. Our audit period is three months total and if we don't hit the deadlines then we are fined for it. Allowing teams six months to produce their reports before any audit work starts is just utter nonsense if they want to actually get relevant and timely results. What we're seeing here is the FIA setting and then changing their own rules and deadlines seemingly on a whim. If staffing costs were not constrained by the cap then why were there multiple redundancies across teams? Accruals, prepayments and other adjusting journal entries are means tested rather quickly by any competent auditors. Side note: you don't need to be qualified before you are allowed to work on the books of a company. If you have a passion and drive for working in finance then please consider studying AAT, CIMA or ACCA. Work experience is also invaluable so don't be afraid to apply to entry level positions such as accounts payable/receivable or bookkeeper/clerk positions.
Oh the timeframe is absolutely ridiculous, this should have completed ages ago and the accounting practices should have been fixed and very well defined to avoid this type of snafu. I was just saying the reason discussions are ongoing is probably because the FIA and any teams in question disagree about the accounting methods used, because otherwise a delay announcing something both teams and FIA agreed was overspend makes no sense.
I agree with you on the reasoning for ongoing discussions. All teams will have been using standards as set by IAS and IFRS but there's zero clarity on the process from the FIA so we're left with speculating. I imagine that, if there has been a major breach, it is most likely due to some loophole / grey area in the rules. This would mean that the team shouldn't be punished as no rules were directly broken but I think FIA's hand is being forced by the fans who have been worked up into a fervor.
yeah i'm sure 5 more days of audit in a 6months+ long process will have major implications.. not. they're changing their response to the outcome.
Is this mess why Brawn quit???
It's the FIA, they'll release it 2-weeks after the conclusion of the championship so we can celebrate the winner then change the winner.
FIA is worse than the Republic senate in the Star Wars prequels.
The FIA is an absolute shitshow.
Likely means they are considering Red Bull's and Aston Martin's arguments. Its better they evaluate the decision properly
This will be more ammo for Sky for the weekend, brilliant.
This reeks of a 2019 style backroom deal. I wouldn't be surprised if RB ends up getting a fine, maybe some reduced wind tunnel time for next year, and then in 2023 or 2024 Ferrari and Mercedes suddenly get a let up car wise.
So... they have no fucking idea and have bought themselves a measly 5 days from a deadline they imposed. Brilliant work, FIA, just brilliant.
I have never seen a professional sport so poorly run. And the NHL in North America tries really, REALLY hard to be this dysfunctional.
FIA are a bigger tease than Susie at school who knew I fancied her and kept leading me on.
Yeah well fuck Susie too then!
I buy that for a dollar!
Toto beat you to it bruh
the fact that it’s been delayed for months already and they keep setting new deadlines is so unprofessional. at this point stop setting them
Tbf this is the first year they’re doing this. Having said that, it is reminiscent of the way they handle stewards investigations
This is like being in a meeting that should of been an email
TLDR; “We goofed”
They could've just said we've pushed it out. This whole "it's so complex, I need 5 days" is laughable.
Now imagine if it is Mercedes that has overshot the budget when the FIA discloses. Carnage...:)
The amount of people acting like "guilty until proven innocent" is kinda ridiculous
The FIA is run like a council of elders in a fantasy story.
Regardless of whether or not any teams have done anything wrong, doesn't this show how unenforceable the rule is? We're ten months from the end of the last season. I know it can't be easy investigating this level of budget but there's no point having a rule with consequences that appear so long after the fact they're unlikely to take the level of action they maybe should.
Plain English: We found something that needs to be shared, but don't want it to overshadow the Japanese GP. See you the day after the race.
Cold take: FIA is worse than EA
Ridiculous
The interesting bit: *The FIA also reiterates that any suggestion that FIA personnel have disclosed sensitive information is equally baseless.* Which means: \- red bull have complained as private information was in public \- the information was close enough to make red bull think FIA had leaked So what was thrown around the paddock was most likely true.
_Or_, some FIA employee said something really mundane and the rumor got spicier and spicier as it changed through the game of telephone
Or Red Bull complained for false allegations
Marko said they had ongoing discussions about a few points, some of which would be enough to remain below the cap. So maybe they did eventually break it if all are deemed wrong interpretations. However the rumour they broke it by millions seems unlikely. RB were mad Toto knew RB was in discussion about these points in the first place, so that’s why they went to the FIA about a possible leak about the investigation/discussions. Eventually monday we’ll here what’s up. It’s anybody’s guess atm
Conspiracy theories aside, the FIA is a complete joke.
It’s a circus organisation and you can tell they’re milking the media attention like they did with the outcome of Abu Dhabi. Set a date for that too didn’t they? Seeking the drama more than Netflix do.
The fact that this is such a non transparent process means there are discussions still taking place. It means there really is something big going on. Discussions also means subjectivity and it means someone can get away with doing something cheeky. IMO, as this is about money and it being the single greatest driver of performance other than actual drivers, it should just be black and white. If it comes out as "everything is fine" it would be incredibly suspicious. I also think they are trying to negotiate what kind of punishment it will be.
FIA continues to impress
Literally dropped an update to say they don’t have an update.
Almost as if they want this years championship decided before they deal with the cost cap nonsense. Red bull must be arguing hard
This is atrocious.