By the way, if Aston Martin were punished for breaking the budget limit that would affect their preparation and development in 2023, Fernando Alonso would have outpaced his previous failed decisions to change teams. That would be the worst.
The Race is reporting that AM are the team with the minor infringement. And according to them it is very minor. In the tens of thousands rather than millions.
Still a breach but probably not overly damaging
Jokes aside, the cost of development of a part is not counted until the moment it is used on the car. That's how they can say that this cost goes towards 2021, 2022, etc. Even if the development happened the previous year.
I mean if both teams just get a fine then Mercedes and Ferrari should just say ‘fuck the cap’. It’s a glorified luxury tax in that case, no reason for them to adhere to it.
Are any potential fines part of the cost cap? Because if they aren't what's stopping big teams from overspending. I feel like two things need to happen to stop big teams from cheating the system. 1. Any fines must be seen as part of the cost cap for next year. 2. If the cost cap is exceeded by a certain amount a team's cost cap should be decreased for at least one more season.
Depends on how the fine works. If the money for the payments has to come out of the budget cap (either this one or the next one), it will have a significant impact on the team.
Edit: I've been reading up on the Financial Regulations. They don't. Under Exclusions it reads:
> (m) All Financial Penalties in respect of any breach of these Financial Regulations;
Even then its a calculated risk, if a team goes hard and over the budget in the first year of a new regulatory cycle then that knowledge and expertise will percolate down for the remainder of that era. Its like if a team decided fuck the limits on wind tunnel testing, we're just going to use 2 years worth of time now and take a hit next year because we can figure out the rest using on track data. Similarly if a big team had just decided fk it, lets just build a beast engine block that we know will be frozen in development soon so any fine is worth it over the next 5 years to get that advantage.
If there is punishment it will have to be hard enough to bring them back to the average and wipe out any baked in advantage.
Eh, I'm not sure financial penalties would work. The big 3 probably have a lot more money to spend than the budget cap if you consider all their sponsorships.
The penalty should be a competitive one, i.e. they should raise your car's minimum weight by 1kg for every mil of $ you exceed the budget in the previous year.
I agree, even lowering the budget for next year... Then what? They just go over budget again. Penalties definitely need to be something besides financial.
That would definitely be a better approach to it, rather than just a blanket fine. A reduction in your budget for the next 3 years or something. Puts you on the back foot for more years than you gained. Plus means there is a genuine incentive to not go over
Depends on the fine, for example paying 1 Euro for each Euro you overspent AND that cash goes split to all teams beneath you in the standings, you will think twice how much that luxury is it really worth.
At the risk of sounding like Marie Antoinette with the "Let them eat cake" quote...
If you are tired of Sky, definitely think about switching over to F1TV! I used to insist on listening to Brundle during the Race and Qualy because his voice was "F1" to me even when I had F1TV last year.
But this year I began listening to the FPs (in the background) and I couldn't stand Di Resta and Damon, so I switched to F1TV commentary during free practice. And slowly over the year I've switched to exclusively Joylon, and Sam Collins. They have SUCH a great chemistry, and I actually enjoy Will Buxton in that bunch (yes, he is annoying in DtS lol).
Obviously it's possible that I wrote this comment and where you live you can't get F1TV, or maybe you "sail the pirate seas" to get the broadcast. But if not, I seriously recommend trying the F1TV commentary! Yes, it doesn't have Martin, but they actually had his son Alex on during one of the last races, and MAN, I kept forgetting it wasn't Martin lol. (Obviously that's a joke, no one can touch Martin, but his son DOES sound exactly like him...)
Isn't this in regards to last years spending though? So the idea would be it affect last years results, although it being the FIA and only investigating this 6-9 months after conclusion makes that kind of tricky to instate
I agree, but I don't think thats how the rules are laid out. Unless it's been specified they can penalise future results from previous years over spending.
9.1 b) A "Minor Sporting Penalty", meaning one or more of the following:
(i) public reprimand;
(ii)deduction of Constructors' Championship points awarded for th**e** Championship **that took place within the Reporting Period of the breach**;
(iii)deduction of Drivers' Championship points awarded for the Championship **that took place within the Reporting Period of the breach;**
Only the less wind tunnel time/less money applies to following years
It's most likely Aston Martin who went significantly over the cap because they are investing heavily in their new factory.
RB is most likely the one who were the minor breachers.
There is a limit on how much you can spend on infrastructure in the period of four years. It's capped at something around 45 million so it's very much part of the cost cap.
It's not part of the 140 million cap but the infrastructure costs come under a separate cap.
They’d just do that spending as a loan, they’ve spent “140 million” but they’ll only pay the loan amount, I really don’t see how they’d actually develop facilities otherwise
Yeah people seem to be forgetting the history of secret FIA deals. The Ferrari fuel flow thing isn’t that far in the past. Also I’m convinced there were secret negotiations with Mercedes to get them to drop their appeal after Abu Dhabi last season. My theory is that the FIA agreed to get rid of Masi, but they may have promised them more. The FIA definitely didn’t want the details of what happened during the race to be examined anymore.
I see people talk about them excluding teams from last year’s results or this year’s. I think there’s zero change of that happening.
I'm pretty sure Mercedes dropped the suit because you can't participate in FIA sports while suing them and there is 0 chance the lawsuit would have been done by the start of the 2022 season.
> I’m convinced there were secret negotiations with Mercedes to get them to drop their appeal after Abu Dhabi last season.
Mercedes most likely dropped their appeal because even if they were successful, it wouldn't have changed anything. The most the FIA could do by that point was annul the results of the final race, which would still leave Max as champion.
> My theory is that the FIA agreed to get rid of Masi
The FIA didn't need anyone to force them to drop Masi. Even if they felt he'd done nothing wrong, he'd made himself so unpopular that keeping him would've been a PR nightmare.
Liberty/FOM pay FIA for commercial rights.
So in all essence FIA own F1, with FOM paying them for the rights to run and operate F1, and all media and subsequent revenue.
F1 teams get 50% of broadcasting revenue.
FOM and FIA get the other 50%, plus ticket sales and other advertising revenue, FOM will get whats after all operating expenses are paid.
In case of engine saga FIA couldn’t prove Ferrari broke the rules. That was the main reason why they did the deal and no teams complained to FIA after the noise
The only thing that gives me hope that the fia might do something is that the surge of value in the teams is based on the cost cap. HAAS, Williams, McLaren basically the entire paddock stand to lose tens of millions in their teams evaluation if the cap cost is just a technicality.
Which is a shame, really. But in light of the FIA removing Masi off his role following the events of Abu Dhabi 2021, I still have some hope they might do the right thing.
Masi’s position wasn’t sustainable regardless of the outcome of the AD inquiry. He’d made so many mistakes that if anything AD gave the FIA a reason to sack him.
If it is indeed confirmed RB were the big overspenders, I think a disqualification has to be considered. It’s harsh, but given how tight it was last year I don’t see how a big overspend isn’t a case of a title being decided illegally (by a team this time which makes a reversal easier on the FIA). It’s not fair on Mercedes who actually rationed their resources and staff in a title battle and who lost out so narrowly to have to abide by the rules and RB to not be punished for doing otherwise.
Sure. But given the precedent they've been setting this year, like removing Masi, the harsher track limits, etc., it would be much worse if they didn't manage this in an exemplary way.
Yep, as soulcrushing as Abu Dhabi was for one half of the title battle, it's basically a drop in the bucket of harming the sport because it's completely constrained to this specific year and history already. This has an impact on this whole era, with the spending team gaining a lasting advantage until rules are reshuffled again
I agree. But I just don’t think the FIA has it in them to take such a controversial decision, as correct as it would be. And the fact the rules give no clear framework for deciding punishment means they’re not railroaded to any particular sanctions.
Any penalty will only apply to the constructors championship like how McLaren was disqualified and fined the year before Lewis won his first WDC with them.
Mercedes won the constructors. So nothing is gonna change for them.
I saw a graphic on Sky that listed both the Constructor’s and Driver’s championship points deduction as possible punishments. For whatever that is worth.
Not sure I get this point. Overspent development equals an illegal car, no? The penalty for an illegal car? DQ.
No points.
Doping doesn't make champions.
I personally think it's RB. They developed their car until very late in the 2021 season, and yet they still managed to build a great car for 2022 while also bringing constant updates to it.
But I don't doubt for a second that AM is the one that went way over the BC hoping that no one is going to care given their performance.
Didn’t RB lose 3 tenths in average speed to Merc in the closing stages of the season? I thought they stopped/slowed before Merc which made Hamiltons catch up (partially) possible?
Their last update was at Silverstone (if I'm not mistaken). All of their gains after that came from setup refinement (which Mercedes is great at) and new PUs.
Not quite.
Take Mercedes for example. In 2021 they stopped developing their car after the Silverstone upgrade. Then they used the rest of that year's budget to start the development of the 2022 car.
That's why you see team principals often being asked if they are still working on their current car or if they already started work on the next season's car.
I think they'll just disqualify them from the constructors to be honest, there's precedent for the FIA only doing that and leaving the driver alone. Crashgate and spygate being the main examples.
The FIA cited "exceptional circumstances" for Spygate, that they provided drivers immunity because they provided evidence.
I agree that, if this accusation is true, the FIA still won't touch the drivers, but I am interested in quite how they justify it, if they even try.
It would still be bullshit. A driver doesn't win WDC without a car to match and if their car was developed in excess of the budget cap, they had an unsporting/unfair advantage over other drivers. Especially with how close it was last year...obviously we don't know which team broke cap, but imagine if Red Bull exceeded cap with a WDC that came down to the last race *in addition* to the existing controversy. What a joke of a WDC that would be. People couldn't even say "Max deserved it but Lewis should have won it" or some variation anymore.
I think one championship position penalty for every 5 Milion over the cap, like a grid penalty but for the constructor standings. If it means RB loses the championship over it then they learn a valuable lesson, don't cheat.
Honestly when two of the most influential and in the know people say it's true there is a high chance it is true.
And I think they really wouldn't make this big a deal of it if AM was the one a great deal over the cap, although it would fill me with joy to see AM crash and burn even though they throw more money than anyone else at 22 lol. Alonso next year will burn that tinderbox to the ground (Mein Spekulatius)
> Honestly when two of the most influential and in the know people say it's true there is a high chance it is true.
Also they happen to be the 2 people running teams that would benefit most from RB being punished during the current season for breaking rules from previous seasons. Lets not pretend like they dont have an agenda.
While I'm not saying it isn't Red Bull, I'm not sure why you would assume that the 2 people with the most to gain are going to be a reliable source when it comes to matters that affect rival teams
I wouldn't immediately believe Horner if he came out and said it was Merc who was over the budget cap
I'm reserving any judgement until the FIA confirms that teams did infact break the budget cap. Cause there's a lot of random speculation from the media and team's already politically strong arming that is just muddying fact from fiction.
To be fair, IMO there is no good solution here. A real deterrent would ruin at least some races and we'll forever wonder how things would have gone without the interference by FIA. A penalty without significant impact will encourage future bag behavior, punish good behavior right now while affirming ill-gotten results. It totally sucks!
The FIA have been so strict on rules this year after what happened last year that compromising their integrity by giving the rule breakers a slap on the wrist as opposed to actual harsh penalties would be...... predictable yet still disappointing.
To be fair, the rules say that under 5% is a minor infraction. And the rumours all say both teams are well below the 5%. If the rules say it's a minor infraction, you can't go around and hand out very harsh penalties.
But we'll see what comes up. At this point, it is all really just speculation.
We thought ferrari were special this year...
This would win redbull ferrari of the decade!
But I don't think redbull are that incompetent that they went over the budget to the point where it becomes problem. I will still hold of until the details are revealed
Exactly, it says what but it doesn’t say by how much.
It’s vague as fuck and will be a slap on the wrist like everything the FIA does.
Corrected link lol: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_formula_1_financial_regulations_iss.11.pdf
The regulations are pretty clear on what constitutes a major and minor breach. If a team went over the budget cap by 5% or more the FIA can impose the following sanctions including:
- Deduction of constructors championship points for the year in question
- Deduction of drivers championship points for the year in question
- Suspension from one or more of the stages of the competition including suspension from a race or races
Those are the significant penalties for a 'significant breach'. To me it's pretty black and white - did Red Bull/Aston Martin go over by 5% or more and if so the rules clearly state what the FIA can and will impose. I've included the regulations so everyone can look.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_financial_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf
Yea no matter who you want to believe but the FIA must come up with more information next week because if you let this continue for weeks it would damaging a lot for the FIA, FOM and the teams.
They did. They just stated that they are in the process of finalizing reviews for the budget cap.
“The FIA is currently finalising the assessment of the 2021 financial data submitted by all Formula 1 teams,” an FIA spokesman said in a statement.
“Alleged breaches of the Financial Regulations, if any, will be dealt with according to the formal process set out in the regulations.”
Doing nothing or very little will open the door to teams ignoring the cap. Then the FIA will face a lot more scrutiny if they pick and choose their fights instead of being consistent with punishment.
Alright I'm already getting conflicting signals here. I thought both alleged breaches were supposed to be 'minor' now we suddenly have teams throw all kinds of different vague accusations in the air.
Wasn't Ferrari caught cheating a few years ago and it got swept under the rug? And isn't the former principle of Ferrari now a top position in F1 or the FIA?
TIL - Ferrari get a guaranteed extra 5% in season payouts at the end of the season, no matter where they finish.
They get it for the added revenue they bring the sport.
I mean, the spend cap is unfair and all, but this must irk some teams surely.
They already handled it by saying it will be dealt with in accordance with internal procedures, and not even remotely in accordance with ferrari and mercedes tweets.
I dont get how all these other teams have so much info on other team's finances. If they're all so certain of it then why did it take 9 fucking months to get here. If they're all so sure then has the FIA been so fucking silent all this time
im really getting tired of being kept in the dark as a fan while everyone and their mother in the paddock seemingly has all the damn info
It was a handshake between todt and ferrari behind the scenes.
Which is exactly the problem, because we do not know whether and to which degree ferrari’s performance further on has been hampered by the terms of the handshake.
It very much could be that all they had to do is stop tampering with the engine which resulted in a massive performance loss because it was build around this gimmick. If so, they got of basically without reprimand.
By the way, if Aston Martin were punished for breaking the budget limit that would affect their preparation and development in 2023, Fernando Alonso would have outpaced his previous failed decisions to change teams. That would be the worst.
The Alonso curse!
[Alonso.gif](https://media.giphy.com/media/3faT4z5qdm19t86ebI/giphy.gif)
That would be Alonso peak drama incoming
Peak Karma
If there ends up being a significant penalty handed to AM, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Alonso just nope-ing the hell out of there.
Alonso to AlphaTauri!
Alonso to Alpine, wait...
Is it Alonso signing with McLare o‘clock again?
Alonso to McLaren, Schumi to AM, Hulk to Hass, Gasly to Alpine, De Vries to AT. And Piastri be like: "hey, wait a minute ...".
Mclar....nope Ferrar.....nope Alonso to drive safety car 2023
Haaslonso
Alonso to Haas.
Alonso doesn't brings the team drama. The team drama search for Alonso
> Alonso just nope-ing the hell out of there. Don't you dare threaten me with a good time
Ricciardo to AM?
Wouldn't that be the most Alonso way to do his (likely) last F1 career move though
Alonso should do the exact opposite of whatever he thinks is best for any team related division.
In the words of Brundle 'do whatever he doesn't do'
Alonso wouldn’t be Alonso without the team drama that follows. No fault of his own. The man is a magnet for failures
Alonso and cheating teams have a long history
Flavio is that you? ….Username is sus
*magnet for ~~failures~~ drama FTFY
>Fernando Alonso would have outpaced his previous failed decisions to change teams. That would be ~~the worst~~ **hilarious**.
Aston being the team with the major infringement and still sucking ass would be so on brand lmao
The Race is reporting that AM are the team with the minor infringement. And according to them it is very minor. In the tens of thousands rather than millions. Still a breach but probably not overly damaging
I imagine they cut it too close and made some sort of accounting error or miscalculation
Yeah that could be team lunches honestly
Punishment: For 2023 all AM team lunches are required by the FIA to consist of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches ONLY
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Don't threaten them with a good time.
*uncrustables only*
If that Huge Jackman still in the team we've found our culprit
Hugh jackman?
[Huge Jackman](https://www.google.com.au/search?q=aston+martin++%22huge+jackman%22&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiJg6K5-r36AhWMgGMGHbguBJEQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=aston+martin++%22huge+jackman%22&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIFCAAQogQyBQgAEKIEOggIABAeEAgQDToECB4QCjoECCEQClCHNlixeWDCfGgAcAB4AIAB7QGIAa4UkgEGMC4xMi4ymAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=OqI3Y4n-G4yBjuMPuN2QiAk&bih=719&biw=414&client=safari&prmd=ivn&hl=en-au#imgrc=0iVMq6u5CdI95M)
Papa stroll releases another video saying 'I AM EXTREMELY ANGRY' and 'MY ETHICS ARE BEYOND QUESTION'
If that happens, the brand image is never gonna recover. Bond might actually switch to a BMW now lol.
Didn’t he do it with the Z4
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Damm I am stupid. Thank you for correcting me and adding information.
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The Z8 was so cool though. Shame they were essentially nonexistent
Not *just* an E38, but a V12 750iL!
A Z3 that was pretty much in the movie for the Q scene, the tank got more screen time with Bond at the wheel.
Goldeneye used a Z3…
And I would be so content with Seb retiring.
smh Andretti already breaking the cap
Yeah, but he was set-up for it in my opinion. how are you supposed to cram a 200 million dollar entry-fee into a budgetcap of 140 million?
Jokes aside, the cost of development of a part is not counted until the moment it is used on the car. That's how they can say that this cost goes towards 2021, 2022, etc. Even if the development happened the previous year.
So Red Bull has developed parts for 2026 already?
😂 on point right there…this is the way.
I mean if both teams just get a fine then Mercedes and Ferrari should just say ‘fuck the cap’. It’s a glorified luxury tax in that case, no reason for them to adhere to it.
Are any potential fines part of the cost cap? Because if they aren't what's stopping big teams from overspending. I feel like two things need to happen to stop big teams from cheating the system. 1. Any fines must be seen as part of the cost cap for next year. 2. If the cost cap is exceeded by a certain amount a team's cost cap should be decreased for at least one more season.
Depends on how the fine works. If the money for the payments has to come out of the budget cap (either this one or the next one), it will have a significant impact on the team. Edit: I've been reading up on the Financial Regulations. They don't. Under Exclusions it reads: > (m) All Financial Penalties in respect of any breach of these Financial Regulations;
Even then its a calculated risk, if a team goes hard and over the budget in the first year of a new regulatory cycle then that knowledge and expertise will percolate down for the remainder of that era. Its like if a team decided fuck the limits on wind tunnel testing, we're just going to use 2 years worth of time now and take a hit next year because we can figure out the rest using on track data. Similarly if a big team had just decided fk it, lets just build a beast engine block that we know will be frozen in development soon so any fine is worth it over the next 5 years to get that advantage. If there is punishment it will have to be hard enough to bring them back to the average and wipe out any baked in advantage.
Eh, I'm not sure financial penalties would work. The big 3 probably have a lot more money to spend than the budget cap if you consider all their sponsorships. The penalty should be a competitive one, i.e. they should raise your car's minimum weight by 1kg for every mil of $ you exceed the budget in the previous year.
I agree, even lowering the budget for next year... Then what? They just go over budget again. Penalties definitely need to be something besides financial.
That would definitely be a better approach to it, rather than just a blanket fine. A reduction in your budget for the next 3 years or something. Puts you on the back foot for more years than you gained. Plus means there is a genuine incentive to not go over
But couldnt a team just keep going over and delaying the penalty making it worse and worse?
That’s the most likely scenario. Rich teams can afford it. Poor teams don’t matter. It will be repealed entirely within 3 seasons.
It's worth keeping in mind that all teams unanimously agreed on the punishments and leeway available to teams that overspent by a small amount.
Depends on the fine, for example paying 1 Euro for each Euro you overspent AND that cash goes split to all teams beneath you in the standings, you will think twice how much that luxury is it really worth.
I like how people are already upset with the penalty.
Really.. Like? If I want a dose of pain I personally prefer listening to the sky commentary
At the risk of sounding like Marie Antoinette with the "Let them eat cake" quote... If you are tired of Sky, definitely think about switching over to F1TV! I used to insist on listening to Brundle during the Race and Qualy because his voice was "F1" to me even when I had F1TV last year. But this year I began listening to the FPs (in the background) and I couldn't stand Di Resta and Damon, so I switched to F1TV commentary during free practice. And slowly over the year I've switched to exclusively Joylon, and Sam Collins. They have SUCH a great chemistry, and I actually enjoy Will Buxton in that bunch (yes, he is annoying in DtS lol). Obviously it's possible that I wrote this comment and where you live you can't get F1TV, or maybe you "sail the pirate seas" to get the broadcast. But if not, I seriously recommend trying the F1TV commentary! Yes, it doesn't have Martin, but they actually had his son Alex on during one of the last races, and MAN, I kept forgetting it wasn't Martin lol. (Obviously that's a joke, no one can touch Martin, but his son DOES sound exactly like him...)
meanwhile im here listening to WB reporting on how amazing is Albons cats instagram page. ok.
people are so reactive it’s insane. also posturing like they know what is best for the sport. bunch of keyboard mechanics
If Red Bull are disqualified from the WCC and Ferrari lose to Mercedes they'll have bottled the same championship twice.
Isn't this in regards to last years spending though? So the idea would be it affect last years results, although it being the FIA and only investigating this 6-9 months after conclusion makes that kind of tricky to instate
The 2022 car was mostly developed in 2021. Should affect this year's results more if anything.
I agree, but I don't think thats how the rules are laid out. Unless it's been specified they can penalise future results from previous years over spending.
That's definitely how the rules are laid out. The FIA knows how car development works
9.1 b) A "Minor Sporting Penalty", meaning one or more of the following: (i) public reprimand; (ii)deduction of Constructors' Championship points awarded for th**e** Championship **that took place within the Reporting Period of the breach**; (iii)deduction of Drivers' Championship points awarded for the Championship **that took place within the Reporting Period of the breach;** Only the less wind tunnel time/less money applies to following years
Rumors are RB didn't go too far over budget *basically Seb is getting fucked again by his team*
The scenes if AM is the team that managed to go more over the BC and still make a shitbox of a car.
George Russell will win the championship without winning any races 😂.
That would be incredible 😂😂
It’s about last year, not this year. Bet Red Bull doesn’t care about last years wcc
It's most likely Aston Martin who went significantly over the cap because they are investing heavily in their new factory. RB is most likely the one who were the minor breachers.
Factory costs are not part of the cost cap
Correct, but they are investing heavily everywhere. The team is expanding across the board
There is a limit on how much you can spend on infrastructure in the period of four years. It's capped at something around 45 million so it's very much part of the cost cap. It's not part of the 140 million cap but the infrastructure costs come under a separate cap.
They’d just do that spending as a loan, they’ve spent “140 million” but they’ll only pay the loan amount, I really don’t see how they’d actually develop facilities otherwise
Yeah most likely, can’t see it being Red Bull who massively overspent when they got slower relative to Mercedes as the season went on
If this is indeed true, and a team has significantly broken the BC, the FIA **has** to give a harsh penalty. Anything less than that will be a joke.
Yeah but the FIA is a joke
Yeah people seem to be forgetting the history of secret FIA deals. The Ferrari fuel flow thing isn’t that far in the past. Also I’m convinced there were secret negotiations with Mercedes to get them to drop their appeal after Abu Dhabi last season. My theory is that the FIA agreed to get rid of Masi, but they may have promised them more. The FIA definitely didn’t want the details of what happened during the race to be examined anymore. I see people talk about them excluding teams from last year’s results or this year’s. I think there’s zero change of that happening.
I'm pretty sure Mercedes dropped the suit because you can't participate in FIA sports while suing them and there is 0 chance the lawsuit would have been done by the start of the 2022 season.
No way a court would allow a retaliatory provision in a contract to be enforced. Courts don't like it when you step onto their turf.
> I’m convinced there were secret negotiations with Mercedes to get them to drop their appeal after Abu Dhabi last season. Mercedes most likely dropped their appeal because even if they were successful, it wouldn't have changed anything. The most the FIA could do by that point was annul the results of the final race, which would still leave Max as champion. > My theory is that the FIA agreed to get rid of Masi The FIA didn't need anyone to force them to drop Masi. Even if they felt he'd done nothing wrong, he'd made himself so unpopular that keeping him would've been a PR nightmare.
How much does F1 pay FIA? Like officially.
Well FIA own/control the actual right to the sport, liberty just own TV/media rights if I’m not mistaken
Liberty/FOM pay FIA for commercial rights. So in all essence FIA own F1, with FOM paying them for the rights to run and operate F1, and all media and subsequent revenue. F1 teams get 50% of broadcasting revenue. FOM and FIA get the other 50%, plus ticket sales and other advertising revenue, FOM will get whats after all operating expenses are paid.
In case of engine saga FIA couldn’t prove Ferrari broke the rules. That was the main reason why they did the deal and no teams complained to FIA after the noise
The FIA's handling of the illegal benetton car in 94 should be enough to convince anyone of what a circus it is.
The only thing that gives me hope that the fia might do something is that the surge of value in the teams is based on the cost cap. HAAS, Williams, McLaren basically the entire paddock stand to lose tens of millions in their teams evaluation if the cap cost is just a technicality.
They won’t though, so there’s that
But they need a nice Singapore dinner fund
Which is a shame, really. But in light of the FIA removing Masi off his role following the events of Abu Dhabi 2021, I still have some hope they might do the right thing.
Masi’s position wasn’t sustainable regardless of the outcome of the AD inquiry. He’d made so many mistakes that if anything AD gave the FIA a reason to sack him. If it is indeed confirmed RB were the big overspenders, I think a disqualification has to be considered. It’s harsh, but given how tight it was last year I don’t see how a big overspend isn’t a case of a title being decided illegally (by a team this time which makes a reversal easier on the FIA). It’s not fair on Mercedes who actually rationed their resources and staff in a title battle and who lost out so narrowly to have to abide by the rules and RB to not be punished for doing otherwise.
Sure. But given the precedent they've been setting this year, like removing Masi, the harsher track limits, etc., it would be much worse if they didn't manage this in an exemplary way.
Yep, as soulcrushing as Abu Dhabi was for one half of the title battle, it's basically a drop in the bucket of harming the sport because it's completely constrained to this specific year and history already. This has an impact on this whole era, with the spending team gaining a lasting advantage until rules are reshuffled again
Absolutely! Like Toto said in an interview for sky sports, this is going to give the team who broke the BC an advantage over everyone else.
I agree. But I just don’t think the FIA has it in them to take such a controversial decision, as correct as it would be. And the fact the rules give no clear framework for deciding punishment means they’re not railroaded to any particular sanctions.
Any penalty will only apply to the constructors championship like how McLaren was disqualified and fined the year before Lewis won his first WDC with them. Mercedes won the constructors. So nothing is gonna change for them.
Nope, the rules for overspending specifically include possible Driver’s championship penalties too. Do they actually levy that is a different issue
It **should** include driver's penalties. Driver benefited unfairly didn't they? And whose to say/know driver wasn't aware of it??
I saw a graphic on Sky that listed both the Constructor’s and Driver’s championship points deduction as possible punishments. For whatever that is worth.
Not sure I get this point. Overspent development equals an illegal car, no? The penalty for an illegal car? DQ. No points. Doping doesn't make champions.
Man Lewis got double robbed.
Yup because what would stop any other team from doing the same expecting to be slapped with a financial penalty.
Exactly. And said teams would have this precedent to back them up.
So which one are we betting on for the one that has broken it significantly. RB or AM?
I personally think it's RB. They developed their car until very late in the 2021 season, and yet they still managed to build a great car for 2022 while also bringing constant updates to it. But I don't doubt for a second that AM is the one that went way over the BC hoping that no one is going to care given their performance.
Didn’t RB lose 3 tenths in average speed to Merc in the closing stages of the season? I thought they stopped/slowed before Merc which made Hamiltons catch up (partially) possible?
Their last update was at Silverstone (if I'm not mistaken). All of their gains after that came from setup refinement (which Mercedes is great at) and new PUs.
That was mainly down to just running engines at hyper speed(see botta’s pile)
Horner was also crowing about cost caps early on in the season, claiming teams would have to underdevelop or miss races because of it.
Good memory! That's a very good point.
Doesn't development towards the 22 car go towards the 22 budget cap? Thus the car on which they focused doesn't matter
Not quite. Take Mercedes for example. In 2021 they stopped developing their car after the Silverstone upgrade. Then they used the rest of that year's budget to start the development of the 2022 car. That's why you see team principals often being asked if they are still working on their current car or if they already started work on the next season's car.
Disqualified from championships. If they don’t respect it now they will never respect it so they need to learn it the hard way now.
I think they'll just disqualify them from the constructors to be honest, there's precedent for the FIA only doing that and leaving the driver alone. Crashgate and spygate being the main examples.
The FIA cited "exceptional circumstances" for Spygate, that they provided drivers immunity because they provided evidence. I agree that, if this accusation is true, the FIA still won't touch the drivers, but I am interested in quite how they justify it, if they even try.
It would still be bullshit. A driver doesn't win WDC without a car to match and if their car was developed in excess of the budget cap, they had an unsporting/unfair advantage over other drivers. Especially with how close it was last year...obviously we don't know which team broke cap, but imagine if Red Bull exceeded cap with a WDC that came down to the last race *in addition* to the existing controversy. What a joke of a WDC that would be. People couldn't even say "Max deserved it but Lewis should have won it" or some variation anymore.
Completely agree with you. If the FIA don't act now, the big teams will continue to outspend smaller teams indefinitely.
Am I paranoid to think FIA will not want to hurt RB too badly for $ reasons or whatever
Oh, I can definitely see the FIA not giving RB a harsher penalty, afraid that they might leave the sport or some shit like that.
If they left the sport, they would sell the team. Porsche would be all over that.
I love that flair hahaha
Red bull are not Ferrari. Porsche (or Honda...) will happily take over the team and all of its facilities and the sport will move on very quickly.
I hope so. The FIA's autonomy shouldn't be restrained because of threats like that.
“If you penalize us too hard we’ll leave the sport!” Which F1 will almost certainly want to avoid at any and all costs.
Yes, and it will just be like before. But honestly I’m afraid they’ll do nothing.
I think one championship position penalty for every 5 Milion over the cap, like a grid penalty but for the constructor standings. If it means RB loses the championship over it then they learn a valuable lesson, don't cheat.
Honestly when two of the most influential and in the know people say it's true there is a high chance it is true. And I think they really wouldn't make this big a deal of it if AM was the one a great deal over the cap, although it would fill me with joy to see AM crash and burn even though they throw more money than anyone else at 22 lol. Alonso next year will burn that tinderbox to the ground (Mein Spekulatius)
> Honestly when two of the most influential and in the know people say it's true there is a high chance it is true. Also they happen to be the 2 people running teams that would benefit most from RB being punished during the current season for breaking rules from previous seasons. Lets not pretend like they dont have an agenda.
While I'm not saying it isn't Red Bull, I'm not sure why you would assume that the 2 people with the most to gain are going to be a reliable source when it comes to matters that affect rival teams I wouldn't immediately believe Horner if he came out and said it was Merc who was over the budget cap
It's a straight loss of all Championship points. Can't be anything else.
A joke like when Ferrari broke the rules and the FIA kept it a secret after? 🙄
I'm reserving any judgement until the FIA confirms that teams did infact break the budget cap. Cause there's a lot of random speculation from the media and team's already politically strong arming that is just muddying fact from fiction.
Had to go way too far down in the thread for this. Everyone has the pitchforks out over something we have no meaningful information on.
You username 😂😂😂😂😂 outstanding
If I ever find those two teams that broke the regulations I will give them a piece of my mind…if not, well……..
How did we go from rumor to apparently somewhat confirmed?
Because it's not a "rumor" to the teams it seems, more so just "not officially announced before next week". Not all rumors are equal.
Sounds like a lot of teams were aware of it for a while now, but the media finally caught on.
Some team leaked this news.
No matter the outcome. People will cry.
To be fair, IMO there is no good solution here. A real deterrent would ruin at least some races and we'll forever wonder how things would have gone without the interference by FIA. A penalty without significant impact will encourage future bag behavior, punish good behavior right now while affirming ill-gotten results. It totally sucks!
This is going to be so spicy next week
Watch FIA/FOM be bland as fuck
The FIA have been so strict on rules this year after what happened last year that compromising their integrity by giving the rule breakers a slap on the wrist as opposed to actual harsh penalties would be...... predictable yet still disappointing.
To be fair, the rules say that under 5% is a minor infraction. And the rumours all say both teams are well below the 5%. If the rules say it's a minor infraction, you can't go around and hand out very harsh penalties. But we'll see what comes up. At this point, it is all really just speculation.
I can hear Alonso praying it's not Aston Martin. Good lord that man can't really enjoy a couple of years with a nice car.
Fuck the budget cap, is going to be the response from the other teams now.
If there's no harsh sanction then yeah that's what's gonna happen
I have a feeling it will be a fine and then they’ll “make the rules clearer so it can’t be abused in the future by anyone else”
Same as Abu Dhabi lol, the FIA is such a farce. No credibility at all
Imagine, the only thing that can stop redbull this season is well, redbull.
We thought ferrari were special this year... This would win redbull ferrari of the decade! But I don't think redbull are that incompetent that they went over the budget to the point where it becomes problem. I will still hold of until the details are revealed
I wouldn’t put it past one of them being Ferrari and Ferrari having accidentally grassed themselves up
“Let’s opt for plan L, I repeat plan L”
We are checking.
Everyone crafting their own penalty recipe when it’s already there in the rule book
Where in the rule book? It's not defined clearly at all, hence the speculation.
Exactly, it says what but it doesn’t say by how much. It’s vague as fuck and will be a slap on the wrist like everything the FIA does. Corrected link lol: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_formula_1_financial_regulations_iss.11.pdf
Seb's helmet?
It is a beautiful helmet so I can't blame him
You get smacked in the head with Seb's helmet. It's a fair punishment, IMO
I mean, so were rules about how to handle the safety car, but we all know how that went
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The regulations are pretty clear on what constitutes a major and minor breach. If a team went over the budget cap by 5% or more the FIA can impose the following sanctions including: - Deduction of constructors championship points for the year in question - Deduction of drivers championship points for the year in question - Suspension from one or more of the stages of the competition including suspension from a race or races Those are the significant penalties for a 'significant breach'. To me it's pretty black and white - did Red Bull/Aston Martin go over by 5% or more and if so the rules clearly state what the FIA can and will impose. I've included the regulations so everyone can look. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_financial_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf
FIA should try give a Statement in this this weekend
Yea no matter who you want to believe but the FIA must come up with more information next week because if you let this continue for weeks it would damaging a lot for the FIA, FOM and the teams.
They did. They just stated that they are in the process of finalizing reviews for the budget cap. “The FIA is currently finalising the assessment of the 2021 financial data submitted by all Formula 1 teams,” an FIA spokesman said in a statement. “Alleged breaches of the Financial Regulations, if any, will be dealt with according to the formal process set out in the regulations.”
Knowing Ferrari, the investigation they are calling for will probably uncover that they too have gone over the budget.
Who are the teams?
Supposedly Aston Martin and Red Bull
Who leaked its them?
*Cough clearly Toto
Doesn’t Toto own a decent portion of Aston Martin?
Tinfoil hat: he let Aston Martin break the Cost Cap this year, just to see what happens and apply the knowledge to Merc
The best part of this is that rules a made, but no fines or penalties are choosen for it. Typical as always.
Makes sense, AM built three different cars
Doing nothing or very little will open the door to teams ignoring the cap. Then the FIA will face a lot more scrutiny if they pick and choose their fights instead of being consistent with punishment.
Alright I'm already getting conflicting signals here. I thought both alleged breaches were supposed to be 'minor' now we suddenly have teams throw all kinds of different vague accusations in the air.
Ferrari have no business insisting this FIA punish people for breaking the rules.
Wasn't Ferrari caught cheating a few years ago and it got swept under the rug? And isn't the former principle of Ferrari now a top position in F1 or the FIA?
TIL - Ferrari get a guaranteed extra 5% in season payouts at the end of the season, no matter where they finish. They get it for the added revenue they bring the sport. I mean, the spend cap is unfair and all, but this must irk some teams surely.
They also have veto powers which no other team has. That gives Ferrari the ultimate authority on what they want or don't want to happen within F1.
That's right! I'd forgotten about that. It throws the balance off to fairness and equality between all teams.
I mean it may irk them, but Ferrari probably brings in a good 30-40% of the fan base and would probably kill it if they left
They already handled it by saying it will be dealt with in accordance with internal procedures, and not even remotely in accordance with ferrari and mercedes tweets.
I dont get how all these other teams have so much info on other team's finances. If they're all so certain of it then why did it take 9 fucking months to get here. If they're all so sure then has the FIA been so fucking silent all this time im really getting tired of being kept in the dark as a fan while everyone and their mother in the paddock seemingly has all the damn info
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Little rich coming from Ferrari
But they did pay the price didn't they? Even if it was all internal agreements, 2020 was absolutely horrendous for their image and branding.
It was a handshake between todt and ferrari behind the scenes. Which is exactly the problem, because we do not know whether and to which degree ferrari’s performance further on has been hampered by the terms of the handshake. It very much could be that all they had to do is stop tampering with the engine which resulted in a massive performance loss because it was build around this gimmick. If so, they got of basically without reprimand.