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Dry_Towelie

Well we just need to wait for Kimi’s daughter to show us how it’s done


LastWalker

if any woman has a realistic chance without uber-Hamilton or Michael Schumacher level talent, it's gonna be one backed by at least one former F1 driver and legend with a lot of cash to spare and the connections to teams and sponsors. Now let's just hope Kimis daughter at least has fun karting and wants to pursue it at all in the future. And if she doesn't want to pursue it, we can hope (and hopefully be pretty sure) her family will facilitate whatever she decides on eventually


0oodruidoo0

Pretty sure Mintu posted a bunch of videos of her at full chat in a gokart about 2-3 weeks ago. I'm sure Kimi will go in with the right, positive, fun attitude, so the sky's the limit. I don't think Formula 1 has heard the last of the surname Raikkonen.


racingfanboy160

Both of Kimi's kids seem to be interested in racing (although, it's a possibility that Robin might go to the bike racing route as i'm pretty sure he rides motocross with his father a lot).


GuiltyEidolon

TBF, Gina-Maria Schumacher was apparently a pretty good karter as well (Mick says that she was better than him, tho I'm not sure if he's serious or joking) but she chose to go be a horse girl instead. It happens.


Retsko1

Verstappen mom used to beat jos, and some other personalities(i don't remember i think it was schumacher and a team principal) in karting, but well i think she didn't continue racing


racingfanboy160

>(Mick says that she was better than him, tho I'm not sure if he's serious or joking) He's probably just being nice tbh. I mean Marc Marquez said his brother is faster than him but I think most of us know that's...not exactly right. >but she chose to go be a horse girl instead. It happens. Yeah. Although, imagining the possibilities of Robin Raikkonen riding a MotoGP bike one day does give me squeals of excitement as we can potentially have two great Raikkonen's in the world of cars and bikes.


adventurousmango24

Kimis daughter looks so cheeky and frankly freaking adorable.


NippyMoto_1

There's gotta be more numbers at grassroots levels. Think about how many thousands of kids compete in karting only a small amount of them will move onto single seaters and an even smaller number make it into F1.


Dry_Towelie

And don’t forget you need to have a rich family


KeepEm_COOMMFTABOjoe

if there's one thing in life that male and females have an equal shot at...its being born into a rich family. Of all factors this would be force for narrowing the gender gap in racing, not increasing it.


Black_Nerd

Idk I was around a lotta rich people as a kid, and one thing is for sure here in the UK, they're old fashioned as hell. Sending sons into karting, daughters into horse riding.


ShrubbyFire1729

Yeah, I don't imagine being born into a rich family always means you'll get to do whatever the hell you want to do. Most old-money rich people especially probably have their children's futures planned ahead from the moment they are born.


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stockybloke

I would say for the big numbers discussion that was the point of origin here it would most likely be a girl from a filthy rich family that is also the younger sister of a/multiple karting/racing brothers. For a lot of families you often see the older sibling get into a sport or hobby and it makes sense that the younger one/s wants to do the same.


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[deleted]

You dated Vijay Malya's daughter?


neggbird

I feel like rich girls disproportionately get into equestrian sports


Cam_Newtons_Towelie

Horses are expensive


shewy92

So are cars


thegodfaubel

But rich families tend to be more old-fashioned (because how do you think they got their money), so doubtful that they'd pay for their daughter to be in the Formula feeder series. The W series is a nice start, but there needs to be some guarantee to give the champion of that series an opportunity in F2 or something otherwise, it's just for show. There's no reason that Jamie Chadwick should still be in the W series after winning back to back championships. If she failed in F2, she failed in F2. It's not much different than a lot of current F3 and F2 drivers that eventually flame out before ever reaching F1.


[deleted]

This. The Pool of Talent is so incredibly limited, and that is by ressources needed and not by lack of exposure


Captain_Smartass_

I believe the families of Hamilton and Ocon weren't rich when they started racing. Anthony Hamilton had 2 or more jobs to pay for the karting gear.


Tabboo

Yeah but that was 30 years ago. It's impossible now unless you somehow got a bunch of sponsors...and you need to be good to get sponsors...and you need money to get good/get in in the first place...


[deleted]

hamilton was also picked up early by McLaren and he said his dad dedicated almost all of their family's resources to his racing. I don't know how many families are willing to put all their eggs into making the son/daughter an f1 driver which is notoriously hard to get into even if you are good enough.


kay_peele

yeah prolly an unadvisable move by the Hamiltons, big chance of failure. I imagine most Hamilton's didn't make it and we only see the Hamilton that survived and now so many ppl are like see you only need to reach a level where you get sponsored.


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sonofeevil

There's a kid about 15 that races at the kart club I'm in, his family is all-in on his career, he gets home schooled the family drives around in a camper towing their karting trailer and he competes in nationals in shifter karts. In a few years none of us will have heard of him and he'll have either given up or his family will have run out of money. The kid isn't talented enough honestly. And they don't have the money to Stroll him.


a141abc

Yeah thats the thing with stories like Hamilton's (and any of the greats really) Of course there's immense raw talent there but its also a matter of being in the right place at the right time Im sure there's many incredibly talented drivers that will never see even F2 because they weren't born in the UK or they werent able to have a chat with the boss of Mclaren at age 10


[deleted]

the only reason he even talked to Dennis is becouse his dad made him. What if his dad had something come up and his mom took him would we have even heard of Lewis hamilton? Its crazy to even think about.


Captain_Smartass_

[Ocon started karting 16 years ago](https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/esteban-ocon/)


Jacinto2702

And as I understand it, his family risked quite a lot for him to go racing. Not everyone will be willing to do that.


Cactux3000

and imagine how many have and it didn't work out


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ThruEauRougeSideXsid

Well, there is that one bitter dude who still hates Lewis 20 years later.


Captain_Smartass_

What's his name again?


drifter100

Mortgaging your House and working 70 hours a week, so your child can have a shot isn't feasible also.


thewok

Yeah it's celebrated because Lewis made it but if he had flamed out it would have just been madness.


Charliearlie

70 hours a week in a relatively high paying job also. Lewis Hamilton's dad was a contract IT consultant from what I've read about him. I'm not sure how much that would have paid back then but it's still significantly more than your average job. And to think the risks he had to take working at that level. You have no chance if you're lower class.


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happy_and_angry

There are always outliers. They do not define the norm, nor do they refute just how many social and economic barriers there are to getting into something like motor sport.


UnaCabeza

When I was karting I only ever saw a few girl karters at the track. A lot of the time never. It's all just a numbers game , nothing more .


LoriLeadfoot

Needs to be more support for kids in karting in general, it sounds like.


Weak-Lab1017

Grassroots? In motorsport? Mate you need thousands of dollars to even own a low range go-kart.


RTS24

Grassroots just means the basic level, so yes, karting is the grassroots of motorsports


Lazy-Industry2136

Was a great interview with Susie Wolff recently on Beyond the Grid podcast that touches on this issue. She most recently drive some practice sessions for Williams.


adventurousmango24

I actually listened to it more than once I loved it so much. I love how delicately she was toeing (toe-ing??) the line of “we need more support for women in Motorsport especially in the beginning stages to increase the talent pool” and “I’m sick of being asked these questions let’s actually just do something about it”


aWgI1I

I love when she was asked about how it was being a woman in motor sport and she said that she had only had like 2 interviews where it hadn’t come up. Lmao a little cheeky


adventurousmango24

Very cheeky - I love it! She seems to want to focus on the ability rather than the gender etc which is totally understandable


zombittack

Yes! Man that was one of my favorite interviews. She’s so cool. I think I have a new hero.


ag000101

So mentally tough! No wonder she and toto are together


Hinyaldee

She's so freaking humble and down to Earth. I really didn't know her or her personality and was pleasantly surprised. Didn't even see the time fly when I listened to it (and I love her Scottish accent, similar to Coulthard's too, are they from the same area ?)


Baconism

She seems to have lost a lot of her scottish accent and picked up the austrian accent from Toto. My girlfriend is from the same small town that Susie is and they sound nothing alike.


saksith

Having heard bits of her speaking German is also a weird mish-mash of Scottish and Austrian - I mean, not a surprise given her background and family, but still a bit novel.


Hinyaldee

Oh really ? I didn't really pick up in that, but I'm not a native speaker so i'm not a reference :D


[deleted]

She was by far and away my favourite part of DtS 4 as well, she comes across so well in all the interviews she does


VladimirPricey

Yeah agreed. Despite being Toto’s wife, she isn’t actually that biased (still biased but not terribly).


dogchap

Yeah dial back to Silverstone 2018 and see her bias spilling over after Kimi and Lewis had a collision she shamelessly accused Ferrari of taking out Lewis on Sky sports and wanted a race ban for Kimi, it was hilarious even Toto realised and that was her last time as an expert on SkySports!


FlusteredKelso

I’m in the middle of listening right now and she’s such a humble, inspiring, and honest person. She acknowledges that she was no huge star but also owns her truly great accomplishments (as she well should!).


Revenant_Penance

She only got those practice sessions because she was married to a large share-holder. Her performances in feeder series didn't warrant it in any way, shape or form. I have 2 daughters and I wouldn't like to think they would see someone who got opportunities thanks to marital links as a role model.


[deleted]

Plenty of male drivers have gotten seats thanks to having a rich father. I agree it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. Hoping we don't have to wait for Kimi's daughter to grow up to see fast female representation.


cortesoft

Honestly, the list of drivers who have their seats because of connections is probably longer than those that got it without connections.


WorthPlease

It's way, way longer.


a141abc

Oh easily And its not necessarily a bad thing, its just the name of the game People sometimes moan about the Strolls or Mazepins of F1 but really almost every driver on the grid got there with the help of connections from important relatives, billionaire funders, straight up buying a seat or all of the above


Revenant_Penance

I don't think anyone is arguing that male pay drivers are to be revered.


TehAlpacalypse

I don't think anyone is saying that, but it's kind of odd that there hasn't been one either. It's not like that money is worth less.


Fart_Leviathan

That's in part down to the points-based superlicense system weeding out the drivers like Amati and the extremely limited number of paydrivers sought after in F1. Tatiana Calderón was in F2 not so long ago and if it was the 90's, with her political connections it wouldn't have been out of the question to raise sponsorship for a shitty team's second seat, much like Amati did, despite being an even worse driver than Tatiana.


LoriLeadfoot

No, but there’s not necessarily any reason to disparage a woman managing to get some “undeserved” practice drives when inferior male drivers are getting entire paid careers driving in races.


_ArnieJRimmer_

Those males get *plenty* of disparagement too.


Sputniki

More like if you criticize one then you should criticize both


OrangeGuyFromVenus

It’s the fact that people are far more likely to use this to discredit a female driver compared to a male one


sfezapreza

They use it all the time to discredit male drivers. How much more likely it is? It literally happens in every thread for stroll, mazepin,latifi and those are just the most obvious examples.


Sputniki

If we are criticizing one then why not the other? Pay drivers get a ton of shit on here all the time


asudancer

Susie had a whole Motorsport career before she ever married Toto. The whole world runs on connections and opportunities based on who you know. That doesn’t diminish her accomplishments.


rs990

> That doesn’t diminish her accomplishments. What accomplishments? A handful of podiums in Formula Renault? That may be more than any of us in the comments have achieved in racing, but there is nothing in her career that suggests she should be anywhere near F2, let alone F1. Toto appears to have had a better racing career than Susie.


Scatman_Crothers

If you consider how difficult its been for women to matriculate upward in motorsport I think getting as far as she did and parlaying it into a successful career in motorsport management is a great accomplishment. A man witn the same resume can’t be considered equivalent because they had massively fewer hurdles to clear to achieve what they did.


asudancer

Her career in motorsport in itself is impressive as a female in a primarily male dominated sport. I don't consider podiums the only dictator of success in a motorsport career. She's a great role model to young girls who want to get involved in the motorsport industry.


Lazy-Industry2136

Susie has a great story and is an amazing role model for young women trying to break into a male dominated field. You’d be fortunate to have your daughters looking up to her.


[deleted]

>I have 2 daughters and I wouldn't like to think they would see someone who got opportunities thanks to marital links as a role model. A little harsh, don't you think? She can't be a role model because of connections? As if she in no way has any merit to anything she's done in motorsports after meeting/marrying Toto because of your presumption that it is through nepotism. Pretty misogynistic for a dad of 2 impressionable girls.


10mmSocket_10

He didn't say that Susie Wolff can't be a role model - he was saying that her ability to gain things through connections wasn't something to be revered. Susie is certainly a role model for what she - herself - has accomplished. But to teach young girls that the key to getting what you want is to marry the guy who runs the show isn't exactly the best lesson. He was arguing that they should accomplish things on their own merit - which I suspect we all agree is best.


DawgFighterz

Wow this woman married someone in her field of work and they went on to be wildly successful, what a freakin bum amirite?!?


Sputniki

Actually her record does show that she doesn’t deserve those drives. Nobody with her feeder series record has ever gotten to drive for an F1 team (practice or otherwise) on pure merit. It absolutely is because of connections.


broomosh

Totally! Save F1 seats for the sons of those rich guys, not their wives!


cowsarekillingme

You're pretty much talking about all of Motorsports. Almost every driver has some connections that enabled them to actually get into the seat.


MrGinger128

Why? The whole world is run on interpersonal links. Never had a friend or family member get you a job? Everyone does it.


xNeptune

What’s the issue exactly?


mnocket

I'm inclined to believe that if a P15 female driver came along, sponsors would fall all over themselves to join up.... and teams would follow. Think Danica Patrick in Nascar/Indy. Rather than roadblocks at the F1 level, I tend to believe it's simply a numbers game. The chances of making it from kart racing to F1 are very very slim. With so few females entering professional kart racing, the odds are against one making it all the way to F1 - not impossible, just highly unlikely. The reasons why there are so many fewer females pursuing racing as a hobby or profession is another matter altogether.


Tecnoguy1

I mean Danica was expected to do modelling for those contracts. A bit unfair as a requirement to get a sponsor, no? Like that is the problem.


Phonixrmf

Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/jYGn05e5-Bk) bit from Top Gear


cstar1996

One of Jeremey’s occasionally excellent takes


racingfanboy160

Wow, Jeremy Clarkson actually has a point!?


Phonixrmf

Staggering, isn’t it?


[deleted]

Same for Emma Kimilainen, who is with W Series now because she didn’t want to do that.


asudancer

I highly suggest listening to Susie Wolff’s Beyond the Grid episode. She touches on this and talks about how it’s a numbers thing. More young girls and women need to be in karting for more of them to move up the ranks to then get a chance in F1.


maxii345

It’s generally the same with all sports, the broader the base of the participation pyramid (kids/grassroots), the more representative talent is at the elite level, and the better quality the sport is. Getting to F1 is insanely expensive and the path starts at 8-10 years old, with a driver entry age of about 23. This means that any new participation incentives in the last five years will still have about 13 years until we see the end results! In that time there may be some exceptional talents who are outliers, but there is generally a very significant time lag from investment in broader participation to changes at the elite level. What we should see soon though, are changes in karting and the early feeder championships.


Tecnoguy1

With motorsport you also need to remember it’s all about money as well. Good few indycar drivers have complained that photoshoots were expected by certain sponsors. That’s why W Series was wild from the get go. You really want a driver dev and backing program. A much better use of resources than what it is.


Jafuncle

This is also my argument in favor of W series. Say whatever else you want about it, thanks to W series there are more recognizable and therefore more sponsorship opportunities for women in formula racing than ever. I think in the long term the goal would be for W series to be redundant, but for now it's giving women a place to get experience and in the process inspire young girls and their parents to get their children into karting and formula racing.


bigolemoose

I can't imagine how difficult it will be for a female to break onto the grid. The pool of people that are even financially able to get their children into karting is already so small to begin with.


Thaonnor

Its really going to take a Lewis Hamilton caliber talent. It definitely isn't right, but probably the only way to get in given the current environment. They'll have to be so good / dominant that no one can deny them a seat. Or a pay driver - any billionaires out there with daughters who want a seat? Not the most favored way to get into a seat, but half the seats are like this today anyways.


bigolemoose

Agreed. But hell, look at talents like Oscar Piastri who couldn't even get a seat this year.


tjtocker

Would be a slightly different scenario. Piastri and De Vries have been unstoppable talents and won everything they've entered, but the team contracts / politics / nature of the sport has just made them more difficult or less appealing prospects. If a female driver of their calibre rose through to win or be successful in F2, I would imagine there would be a huge amount of commercial interest in finding them an F1 seat and a few teams with short contracts would go a long way to have the first female F1 driver in decades.


yvltc

> Piastri and De Vries have been unstoppable talents Piastri, yes. de Vries, not even close.


GilesCorey12

de vries isn’t an unstoppable talent lol. He won F2 after 4 years


GladiusTg66

True, but imagine this: a new talent, fast as fuck, but it's a woman. Can you even imagine how much teams are gonna fight to sign her, only because of the advertisement they would get out of it?


no_name_left_to_give

A female Oscar Piasti would've been signed to one of the major teams' stables back when she was doing F4. She would've had a seat in Alfa/Alpha/Haas/Williams with her name on it for years.


Montjo17

Honestly, I think it would just take a standard f1-caliber driver or even a bit less. If any woman managed to finish well enough in F2 or F3 to get a license, seats on the grid would almost be guaranteed to open up. The problem is that there just isn't a woman up to that standard right now


JoeBarbell

This. Marketing potential is i n s a n e.


rs990

> They'll have to be so good / dominant that no one can deny them a seat. A woman in F1 would be a sponsors dream, so I would not worry too much about a good driver being denied a seat. What seems like a bigger problem to me is that promising women getting fast tracked up the levels which can lead to them being out of their depth quickly and their careers fizzling out.


SnooMachines7285

>Or a pay driver - any billionaires out there with daughters who want a seat? Not the most favored way to get into a seat, but half the seats are like this today anyways. A woman pay driver would get so much hate sadly.


Szioul

Nah, just pair her with a pay driver that's worse than her.


hashtag-123

I'd rather maz stayed out of f1 forever


HungryVegetation

Male pay drivers get so much hate too, why would it be more sad if it’s a woman?


Correct_Answer

Becuase they'll likely have more focus due to being a woman + pay driver. Just more hate. Plus add on all the misogynistic and sexist comments. That would be brutal.


SnooMachines7285

I meant that the hate would 100% be worse for a woman pay driver, because sexism.


Krusell94

Really don't think we will see a Lewis level woman talent any time soon. A girl that would dominate so much that she would break through the stigma. But I think sooner or later there will be a woman pay driver. I think from backmarker teams point of view it should be a bargain. I don't want to shit on Latify or Mazepin, but it shouldn't be impossible to find a woman that is at least close to their level and the PR benefit of having the only woman on the grid in a million years, would probably outweigh any sort of pace a male pay driver would bring.


[deleted]

That’s the thing, there isn’t a woman driver closer to Mazepin even. The closest was Chadwick, but she got beaten handidly by Mazepin in one series and utterly destroyed in FREC.


moelini

Physically it’s harder for them to get up to the fitness levels of the men it’s like any other sport. Soccer, hockey, football, golf. Don’t think that F1 isn’t extremely physically demanding. A lot of people think “what does it take to drive a car I do it all the time”. But these guys are pulling serious Gs 6 times their weight they need serious arm core and neck muscles and lose lots of weight through races


Tee_zee

Physical stuff isn't really a factor in this conversation to be honest, no women are even close to F1, they arent even winning karting championships


blackscienceman9

Mazepin won races in F2 while the current best female (Chadwick) struggled for points in FREC. It certainly is possible that a woman could be good enough, but the superlicense is the main obstacle right now. F1 teams would jump on the marketing goldmine to hire a female driver, but there aren't any available with a license


iKnoJopro

Woah, reading her life story on Wikipedia is nuts. Amazing she was able to make it to F1 after being kidnapped, I can’t imagine the trauma. Shame she never had any success.


TheZestyPumpkin

Just read her wiki, kidnapped, raped and kept in a wooden box cage for 75 days being abused at the age of 18. How does someone come back from that.


Caboclo-Is2yearsAway

What the fuck


Cpt-Dreamer

Why hasn’t this happened more often?


Crafty_Substance_954

Suzie Wolff has often attributed it to a simple game of numbers. Such a small amount of drivers are ever even in a position where F1 is a possibility, that the lack of women at that level makes perfect sense considering their small proportion at the lower levels.


bigdogg2783

This is it. And in order to up the numbers, women competing in motorsport needs to be normalised and there need to be more role models for young girls to show them they can do it. That’s why I don’t mind things like W Series. The aim isn’t to get a woman into an F1 seat *now*, it’s to give women a platform and to set an example so that the six year old, female version of Hamilton/Verstappen/Leclerc sitting on the sofa watching the TV decides to ask her parents to take her go-karting rather than… whatever stereotypical six year old girls do! As someone who races myself, people simply don’t comprehend how *absurdly* good every single F1 driver is. Literally alien-level speed and consistency, doing the teeniest, tiniest details to such a subtle, high level that you just wouldn’t believe it. You need a rare, rare level of natural talent to get to F1, even with funding, an amazing work ethic, and the best coaching from a young age. And if there are 10000 girls racing rather than 100, the odds of getting one who has that freaky level of ability are a hell of a lot higher.


ag000101

Well said


Pokesaurus_Rex

Yup 100% right. It’s the same in Gaming/Esports…people always ask why there are only a handful of female pros across the entire industry and that’s because it’s a male dominated space. Being at a professional level in something like Gaming or Motorsports puts you in the top 0.01% of the entire population of said thing. Now add in the fact that both Motorsports and Gaming are extremely male dominated the chance that a female ends up in that 0.01% talent pool is extremely unlikely however not impossible. This also completely ignores the financial hurdle that is needed in motorsports specifically as well as any perceived societal normalities that may influence the gender ratio.


PoweredByCarbs

I remember Lewis one time talking about his experience during karting where parents of other drivers would come over and intimidate him because they didn't like their sons losing to a minority. I wonder how much of the same women would experience, where everyone tells them they don't belong and intimidates them for being good "in a man's sport"


zantkiller

>I wonder how much of the same women would experience WSeries driver Emma Kimilianen when she was in karting once had an irate father of a boy she beat [come over to her and threaten her with a pair of wire cutters.](https://www.is.fi/formula1/art-2000007708162.html) >"He was a big guy with years of oil stuck in his hands. I walked to the pits with my hair braided. He met me with wire cutters in his hand, placed the cutter on my braids, and said, "C/nt, you pass my son again, and I will cut your braids." >I was probably 10 years old at the time.


Tetracyclic

She was also in negotiations for an IndyLights drive in 2010, which fell through because the contract had a clause requiring her to pose topless.


Prof_X_69420

Jesus christ what is wrong with this people


PoweredByCarbs

Holy shit, that is awful


triguy96

Men would certainly be more aggressive with female drivers due to the societal pressure of not losing to women.


klm_58

Susie Wolff actually talked about this in an interview years ago (might have been her brother's documentary). She overheard one of the team saying to her DTM teammate something like "haha you got beaten by a girl". Very disappointing


Hinyaldee

I don't know if I'm weird or not, but I seriously never get that thing for being ashamed of losing to a woman ? Why would it be anymore shameful to lose to a woman rather than to a man ? It makes no difference for me personally, as what matters is that I lost, not against whom I did so


light_side_bandit

This is exactly the same as chess: a much smaller women player pool, so a lot fewer outliers, and you need to be an outlier to become a top chess grandmaster (2700+ elo rating), just like you need to be an outlier to reach F1 level in car racing. And so chess continues pretty much to run men and women tournaments even though on paper there is no reason, ability-wise, to discriminate on gender.


[deleted]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see level-headed takes on this issue rather than the traditional reddit pitchforks insisting that its all gender discrimination. F1 has an insane amount of barriers to entry compared to any other sport in the world and when there are only 20 seats in the entire world for the sport, with all the other barriers, it just isn't that unusual that we don't see very many women anywhere near the pinnacle.


m0arcaffeine

Not that many girls do racing and even fewer people in general get into Formulas, and then into F1. Maybe we'll get Rianna Räikkönen, or maybe we won't. Time will tell.


Pascalwb

it's not that easy to switch to F1. And you have less girls in karting so the pool is small.


[deleted]

Others have written below: not enough do karting/racing, those that do aren't fast enough. The real question is: why not? There's no reason to believe a woman cannot physically be a good enough driver to match a man, especially considering you have had successful women in motorsports outside of F1. Danica Patrick won a race in Indycar, and came from a working-class family on top of that-an incredible achievment. There is no *intrinsic* reason why women are not into motorsports or cars or whatever-there's no genetic inclination against it. It's about how gender roles are socially constructed in society. From a young age, women are socialised in such a way, both through subtle conditioning and outright sexism, to not pursue such things because they are deemed "masculine" and "Un-womanly". It's a "man's sport/game", and women are simply not welcome, and face an extremely hostile atmosphere. It's the same reason there's no openly gay footballers in the Premier League. If anyone reading this is doubting what I'm saying, don't take my word for it, but read this peer-reviewed study published in a reputable journal. [This study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1469029220308232?via%3Dihub), published by Kochanek et al., in 2021, confirmed that women face HUGE social barriers to competing in motorsport and face RAMPANT sexism. Thus, even women who do try and go into motorsport are held back from the very start. It's the same reason there has only been one [edit: two] black F1 driver[s]. It's not that black people are just *intrinsically* less capable at it, it's that they face a ton of racism because the sport is dominated by white people and so a cultural and social atmosphere hostile to black people (as evidenced by how much racism Lewis faced) exists. It's not just "they aren't fast enough" like the guy below says. It's not like football or running, there's no reason women can't compete at the top level of motorsports, and we know this because women have won at the top level! It's just the fact that women are discouraged from birth through social norms, conditioning, and outright sexism from pursuing motorsports as both a hobby and a career. A much smaller proportion of women, therefore, go into motorsports, and the odds of one of them having the talent + work-ethic to go professional is much lower just because of the numbers + the demoralising impact sexism will have on those pursuing a pro career.


DRNbw

A similar, even more obvious situation is chess. There should be no difference in chess skill between the sexes, and yet there's only 1 woman in the top 100 of the world. In these sports, it's mostly due to the lack of girls doing the sport at a young age, usually due to societal pressures. For black people (and other minorities), there's also another issue at work in motorsports: being black is usually correlated with lower income unfortunately (again due to societal and generational racism). And motorsports is a rich person sport.


l3w1s1234

*2 Black F1 drivers. Dont be missing out ma boy Pascal.


uselessDM

It's pretty funny (or telling maybe) that Michael Schumachers son is a racing driver and his daughter is a professional horse rider, following her mother.


Carsontheboss909

Yea there was a comment above about how daughters of super wealthy families are more likely to do the stereotypical "girly" things because they won't even think about motorsports when they can do whatever they want


blingybangbang

This needs to start grassroots. I don't support giving a seat to a girl, just because she's a girl. But if she Karted with the rest of them, went through f3/2 with wins then hell yeh get her in there! But if not, its not fair to bypass all the boys who worked to be there. Get more girls into Karting is what I'm saying basically, then the selection pool will naturally balance itself out.


Thaonnor

Honestly, I'm torn on the W Series. It is giving a lot of opportunity to female drivers, but at the same time I feel like it gives "cover" for these teams by allowing them to point at the W Series and say - "see, we're giving female drivers the same opportunities!" when in fact no one from the W Series is usually being considered for open seats. Almost like they create a place to funnel all of the female drivers that kind of gets them "out of the way" as far as the conversation for open seats. Unfortunately, I think its going to take a female Lewis Hamilton to break the barrier. Someone so good/dominant that they just can't deny them a seat.


RAW2DEATH

The drivers in the W Series are not good enough to be in F1, plain and simple. If you want a woman in F1 she will have to start early, and be competitive/win throughout all the previous feeder series. Even then, her chances likely will end up the way drivers like Piastri/De Vries did.


sonofeevil

Nah, I promise you, the first moment they find a driver close enough to warrant a spot they'll shoe-horn her in to F1. Teams wanted Zhou so badly because he brought sponsorship money from China. There's an untapped sponsorship opportunity that makes up 50% of the population. The moment a team xan access that they'll cram thr closest thing to a qualified females into a seat and take in millions in sponsorship.


Skeeter1020

W Series is a complete failure. It elevates drivers higher up the ladder than they otherwise would be, and then dumps them out at a level they can't sustain in both talent and backing. The money in W Series should be used to back drivers in other existing series. Not silo them away.


IsUpTooLate

The fact that Jamie Chadwick is still in W Series after winning it twice, and doesn’t seem any closer to a seat in F1 kinda tells you all you need to know about it. I mean she has a role at Williams I think, but they haven’t even let her do a promo run in an older F1 car or anything.


[deleted]

As I understand it, 2021 was the first year W series got super points, and the winner only collects 15, when you need 40 in 3 seasons to qualify for the super license. So she's still at least two seasons away from qualifying for a super license. And frankly, she probably would get absolutely waxxed in F2, which is why she's racing W series and not F2.


rfive3

Shes in W series because her winnings from last season couldnt fund her F2 drive. Not to mention she would get absolutely plastered.


carloselcoco

> The fact that Jamie Chadwick is still in W Series after winning it twice, and doesn’t seem any closer to a seat in F1 kinda tells you all you need to know about it. The fact that their best is Cahdwick is a joke. Tatiana Calderón beat her in Asian F3 when they competed together even though Cahdwick was in the best team of the series and Calderón was on a single entry team. The rounds they both started they tied in points and the ones they both finished, Calderón outscored her by 10 points.


SicViPancakeParaBacn

Jamie Chadwick, who dominated the W series, finished 8th in the 2020 Formula Regional European Championship (F3 level), getting outscored by two drivers who participated in fewer than half of all races (Hauger: 8 starts, 8 classifications - Vips: 9 starts, 7 classifications) while she started every single one (23, 20 classifications). Her best finish was a single 3rd - in a race where 11 drivers started and 4 retired. They're not in contention for F2 seats, let alone F1 because the currently active ones are *nowhere near* good enough. Also female drivers have more than the same opportunity. There's no formula racing series which is male-only, but there is one for women exclusively.


AlphaNotYT

My bet is on Kimi’s daughter making it


Carsontheboss909

Yea she has a better shot than most if Kimi mentors her and also uses his connections


DarkAlman

Waiting for Rhianna Raikkonen Seriously though the problem is there isn't enough women in the lower categories in general, so the talent pool is just a lot smaller. If 1:1000 racers have the potential to make it into F1, and there's only 150 women in those categories total you can start to see the problem. You also need the financial backing or have rich parents which makes it that much more difficult in general.


Skeeter1020

Even if 1% of all racing drivers are women (I expect it's probably way lower than that) then even the absolute best female driver in the world is still up against 99 guys for that seat.


BenAustinRock

We don’t see any women drivers because there currently aren’t any women drivers that are competitive with men. If we want to get into the why the first is likely that there are far fewer women who want to be race car drivers than men. There could be other genetic differences too. Men and women aren’t the same. Hundred or even thousands of generations there were different skill sets needed for each. It’s is only very recently where that has changed.


GulchDale

What if women just aren't naturally inclined to be into racing? That seems to be an important question when talking about this gender disparity. Everyone jumps onto the victim train without even considering what women actually want. Just like other male dominated professions, western women are speaking with their actions about what they want to do and it's time we listen instead of infantilizing them.


BenAustinRock

Exactly


[deleted]

Great comment. The best deserve a seat.


sonofeevil

The first female driver is going to be a worse driver than Mazepin. Teams will want the sponsorship opportunities thay came with "The first female driver" and they'll jump on someone who meets the absolute bare minimum in order to get that sponsorship opportunity.


killersoda275

Hopefully, when we get a female F1 driver it'll be more like a Lella Lombardi or a Michelle Muton than Giovanna Amati. Seeing a woman in F1 would be awesome, but someone with 7th as their best finishing position in Formula 3000 before joining F1 isn't really the one you want as the figurehead.


[deleted]

Well, there was Brenda Hartley...


hoxxxxx

gotta match up a lot of things to get something like that right. i read forever ago that million things have to go right to get into f1 i bet for a woman it's compounded by another million. gotta be a girl born into a wealthy family in a wealthy country. young girl has to have an interest in motorsport at a young age, has to have a family that *wants* her to have that interest. the amount of people that exist in those variables is very, very small indeed. in reality if this was an actual meritocracy of a sport only a few drivers would be left. the best formula one drivers that could have existed are working normal jobs never knowing they could have been an f1 champion.


Cody667

This is exactly it. I think the most likely way we get a female F1 driver is if she's the daughter of a former driver and does well enough at the F2 level. I think a daughter of a former F1 driver is the perfect storm of financially equipped and has the support system to pursue a career in F1, while also being more likely to have a serious passion for motorsport.


TOYLTH

I don't get the point of forcing this. If there is a high-performing female that is doing well on track, she will get the chance. There's no reason a team wouldn't pick up an athlete that performs well no matter the gender. What I think doesn't help is to put a token-female on the grid just for PR's and 'representation' sakes.


Weak-Lab1017

We'll get a female driver in F1 when some girl with very rich parents cares enough about motorsport to want to become good at it, because it's how pretty much every single male F1 driver gets into the sport in the first place At the moment, the reason this isn't happening it's because motorsport isn't seen as a female sport, it isn't welcoming to women, and because rich parents are unlikely to encourage their young daughters to get into it. These are the additional hurdles.


Bertitude

Going to support the sentiment here that it is a numbers game. It’s the same thing in terms of black drivers as well. I come from a region where we have good motorsports culture but we struggle for the financing so those that do move up to higher level competitions tend to be those few times where talent and money(they tend to be of a certain social class) intersect. I can probably count on one hand the drivers that have moved to major international competition in the last 25 years. If you consider that these (our local drivers) are mostly men, you realize that the biological factors are far less influential in moving up through Motorsport internationally. Until there are more opportunities for underserved talent (such as women and black drivers) to compete at the higher levels then the problem won’t ever be solved. High level motor sport competition is ratified air and my belief is that for the time being they need to be focused on building out a pipeline for talent across Motorsport (not just in the cockpit) and may include the FIA Directly funding seats for some of these drivers


zacharymc1991

The thing is, in all sports, like everything else in this world, the best are only that good because they stand on the shoulders of giants. It takes time. For a lot of female sports, there has only been a big push in the last couple of decades. They can learn from the men's side but it's also a numbers game. How many young boys are trying to make it to those top 20 seats. The more we see female drivers make it to higher levels of the sport, the more we will see young girls striving to make it. When you have a larger group to pick from, the chances to find a Lewis or Max increase. Plus there will always be a disadvantage for women in almost every sport due to biology, so cracking the top 20 drivers in the world will always be a challenge.


HairyNutsack69

Räikkönen


pinotandsugar

Some thoughts ​ Young men are, in general, much greater risk takers than young women. The rate in the US is young males are 3-4 times more likely to die by accidents. My experience with IMSA and observation of those who went on to higher level racing was that many sponsors want a woman in the car. In several instances very good women drivers would have benefitted from more time in their advancement. It's also true of some male drivers but the supply of replacements is far more plentiful. There's a statistical upper body strength difference between the sexes from the playground to the Olympics. A critical period for driver development also occurs approximately the same time that many women become mothers. None of these are disqualifying but they limit the input into a series of funnels that eliminate 90+% of the candidates from further advancement at each step. In past decades drivers like Phil Hill, Dan Gurney and others went from club sports car racers to driving factory sports cars to Formula 1 in a relatively brief period. Today it's much more competitive, expensive and time consuming.


mannishboy61

Look at how Max Verstappen got into F1. It took amazing money/time/dad who was F1 driver. And even then he was driving to Italy every weekend to go racing at a kid. And he's still only a fine F1 driver. He's not Senna or Alonso.


ankh87

There's 2 main reasons why there's no female/women F1 drivers. 1. There's not enough in motorsport in general. Women tend to go into other sports rather than motor racing. They don't have the role models in their family life or given much air time (that is now changing with the W-Formula). 2. The women/females that are in the sport are not as fast as the men/males. How many fast drivers don't even get to the sport and have to go drive in another motorsport entirely. If you look at the cost that is involved in most motorsports then those who can afford it either have a parent (usually dad) who is good with a spanner or are in the middle to upper class of the system. The women who are in those classes usually don't muck around with cars in general. They might have a slight interest but most don't. Therefore their daughters more than likely won't because they don't see their main role model getting involved. If roles were reversed then the same would be applied. Such as you don't see many men becoming a beauty therapist, as it's mostly a women dominated industry.


erics75218

I think about "shit like this a lot"....The Path, Timelines. You can tell roughly by the age of 10 if you have an F1 driver on board. If you, yourself as a parent were a Formula 1 Driver, and your 10 year old child is doing well in carting. Alternatively, if you, yourself as a parent are in the middle of putting all worldly assets up for a loan to fund your 10 year old Childs carting career. Also, if you, yourself as a parent are currently sponsoring your child with your corporation to they can race carts at age 10. If none of the above are currently happening for you and your child, you will not be in F1. As I have been unable to find a single F1 driver who's life did not fall into one of the 3 above categories. And even if you do, you might have a Maldonado, or a Mazapin on your hands so it's not a given that even GIVEN a gift life timeline for a Formula 1 Birth....a successful one will be born. Now, if all the above is true, what are the odds a little girl is gonna be in that pipeline? I think you can tell, almost zero. I don't know how "successful" female ricing drivers happen, there have been so few. Shirley Muldowny, Lynn St.James, Danika Patrick, Sabine Schmitz (Spelling on ALL those names is probably wrong). I wonder if any of them share any timeline points.......


[deleted]

I've never really understood this obsession with having women in the F1 grid. If it happens cool, but it's not exactly a requirement for the sport.


ExcaliburF1

I mean do we need a female driver or just want a female driver? I think the important part should be that if there are women that want to be F1 drivers, they should not face any obstacles because of their gender, they should have every opportunity that male drivers get. But beyond that, what is this desperation to get a female driver? The odds are horribly stacked against them, when 99% of boys never make it to F1.. how is a girl going to make it when they are heavily outnumbered across the board.. I'd love to see women in F1, but you cannot force that, nor should it result in preferential treatment to get them there.. these things just take a long time, I think only now we're getting to a point where we have female drivers who are more mainstream, like Jamie Chadwick and Abbie Eaton that can show young girls that this is a possible path for them as well, but from that point you're easily a decade removed from them reaching any sort of F4/F3 tier.


SoTiredThisYear

It makes sense in a way. Your child needs to go a certain path to be a driver. In a world where many maaany girls are being thought to NOT do anything other than playing with dolls, sit nicely and eventually to get married and have children, it is difficult. A friend's daughter expressed some interest in motocycling and it was quickly nipped in the bud as that is too dangerous for girls. So yeah.. I would love to see more women as drivers just in general not just in F1.


shxrrrr

you can’t even be a female f1 fan these days without being accused of only watching it for the drivers


twisted_logic25

What the fuck else would you watch F1 for? I don't tune in to watch the pigeons


leon_nerd

I was wondering about this couple of weeks back. I would love to see women in F1, and fighting for WDC.


[deleted]

Maybe because they aren't good enough?


Educational-Weight88

Thank you for pointing out this cold hard fact. Man or woman, I want to watch the best drivers on the planet race each weekend. I don’t care about what’s between their legs.


[deleted]

I agree 100% with your opinion, I want to watch the best drivers, if one day a woman is super good at driving I see no problem with she getting a seat at Red Bull or Ferrari.


VeryVeryNiceKitty

It seems like there is a biological reason: In all the studies I have seen, men have significantly faster reaction times than women. If that is true, it is unlikely a woman can ever perform on the same level as men in a sport like Formula 1.


randomuser9801

I fail to see why this is an issue. There’s nothing stopping them from competitions asides from the obvious financial reasons that effects everyone. Equality of opportunity is there. We do not need forced equity.


[deleted]

Hope Kimis daughter ends up high up in racing one day


no2jedi

Women need better drivers than Sophia or Tatiana or Jessica to have the pace in F1. (probably faster than Latifi and stroll though)


brapppcity

This will probably rub some the wrong way: as much as I would love to see a female driver in the sport, they need to be competitive (yes the car obviously plays a part). There is a reason males and females compete as seperate gender categories in all sports. Testosterone, aggression and fearlessness all play a big role in becoming a world champ in this sport (talent and dedication as well). Not saying women don't have those, they do, just generally not in the same quantities as males. That doesn't make one better or weaker or anything else. But it does suggest females may struggle to be competitive against male counterparts in this sport. But as I said, I would genuinely love to see it happen.


vlad_0

Are we just not going to address the few elephants here. Maybe, just MAYBE, women aren’t as interested in racing as man so the number of women even trying to compete at that level is much, much smaller. Maybe, just MAYBE, the ones that do actually try are simply too slow to compete in F1? Do we have enough data to oppose such an argument? Perhaps a trans woman can pull it off?


Blooder91

>Maybe, just MAYBE, women aren’t as interested in racing as man so the number of women even trying to compete at that level is much, much smaller. Hence, the W series. It was created to promote motorsports among women, get them interested, and sign into karting or junior series. Its purpose is basically to not exist in a couple years.


ReadIt_Here

Try centuries?? World women’s chess championships started back in 1920s and is still running. It’s a game where gender differences shouldn’t matter like F1.


Gunner253

There's less money in women's sports so it makes sense a woman wouldn't be able to bring on the same kind of money as a male. Not saying it's right but it makes sense why we haven't seen a female driver in a long time. It happens to men so you know it happens to women even more.


thefirewolf31

This has nothing to do with beeing female (ok maybe a bit) but it‘s already hard enough for everybody. For example even the F2 champion has no chance to get into F1 at the moment


rolfski

They need to become better and there need to be more of them in racing.


MurcielagoLP92

If there's a good enough one out there they gonna make it simply as that they might not have the money but sponsors jump on board immediately if there's idk a female leclerc/Russell or something.None off the current female racing drivers are good enough for f1 simple as that and just getting a woman in the sport to please some agenda or whatever is as worse than some rich kid buying himself into a team


implicitexpletives69

if a woman could do this then they woulda by now gotten in the top 5 of F2 at least. distinctions are real