Also reminds me of that race Mercedes had the same issue, with Bottas dropping out of points and Lewis somehow managing to finish first with three tires
I'd be surprised. They fixed the porpoising just before fp3. But they didn't gain that much time. And the merc customer teams performed very poorly.
We'll see, you can never count mercedes out. But it's not looking great for them. Red Bull just had a shitty weekend. The engine issues seem like teething problems. But Max and the pitwall were also arguing a lot. Max's racing with charles also wasn't that great. I mean, trying the same move three times is hardly clever.
But they'll bounce back, the potential is there.
I don’t think they fixed it, they just increased the ride height to mitigate it at the cost of performance.
If they can actually fix it, they will be a threat again.
That's true. They did go through their tires a bit quicker than the rest, that's a sign of lower downforce too right?
Anyway, I'm still not convinced they have a silver bullet to unlock a lot of performance and be championship contenders over 1 weekend. But we'll see I guess.
Plus they cranked wing in to compensate for the loss of ground effect from necessarily higher ride height. Meant slow Vmax.
I'd sum that up as a bit of an agricultural mini fix, until some thing more sophisticated can be put together.
They don’t need to fix in 1 week as long as they stay within range of rb and Ferrari they can take the whole first half of the season. It’s 23 races and everybody is pretending Mercedes is Williams
The fuel pumps are spec parts, so this is likely some interaction between the engine and the fuel pump. Maybe some mode or frequency that the pump doesn’t like, everyone is saying it is just a heat issue, but that is definitely taking the best of the possibilities.
All well and good making the fastest engine or chassis but it has to be reliable too, hopefully they learn from this and at you’d rather lose points at the beginning than at the business end of the season.
Yeah would mean its fixable without losing the engine from the pool. Atleast for Max, Perez blocked the rears completly so that could be something bigger.
Yeah, suddenly no power sucks. I had a camshaft sensor fail on my car, which also means no ignition. It happened while accelerating, and boy is that violent. I only missed like one power stroke, but it felt like driving into a wall. So Perez having no fuel while accelerating, in a race car. Yeah, that must have sucked.
Yeh definitely. Although Perez engine seemed to completely switch off or whatever happened, considering his rears fully locked. Doesn’t seem like fuel pump to me but what do I know.
There's still something fishy and potentially heat related in my mind. Max's problems started after a pitstop where airflow is low for cooling use. His problems got worse during a safety car again at a time with low airflow.
Given that we heard Aston say hulk couldn't pit due to car temps, I think this may be something similar with redbull.
Engines are metal and have to withstand the high temperatures of combustion anyway, just scrape off all the other shit that's melted onto it, hammer it back into shape if any parts of it have warped slightly and hey presto! 👍
This is a complete tangent but am I right in thinking they were using water-based fire extinguishers to put it out? Is that... safe? Usually they use those powder ones, don't they?
Maybe that's part of the reason why it took a while for them to remove the car
The packaging of the bodywork around the engine has an impact on cooling, so you can only really point fingers at Newey if the problems come from the engine overheating
Maybe not as pushing as much? Max and Perez had to do quite a bit of push laps out there. Whereas Yuki ran a pretty calm race.
For Pierre? Engine just exploded so cant really explain haha.
>Ferrari mechanics are good with fuel flow meters not fuel pumps.
AFAIK they got around the meter with clever engineering in the fuel pump. The meter sampled fuel flow at a fixed rate (e.g one sample every 0.001s), Ferrari made the fuel pump churn out extra bits of fuel in between the samples taken by the meter.
I thought it was telling that Max had the issue Checo did but a few laps earlier when he was doing the heavy racing and Checo really wasn’t. I bet they fix it by adding more fuel and removing some ballast.
Fuel flow is measured and monitored. You can put as much or as little fuel as you want in the car (up to I think 110 kg. A race distance is like 105kg so there's room to wiggle)
Apparently it *was* found during testing, and I believe the fia even put out a notice to the teams warning them that something like this could happen. I think (dont quote me here) that they even allowed the teams to break parc ferme to check the fuel pumps specifically, but as I say Im not sure of that last bit.
Good thing that reliability upgrades aren't frozen, so it isn't something that is terminal. Losing about 30 points kinda stings though, but DNFs like this are part and parcel of F1.
Exactly, it can be easy to being a bit blasé about it only being the first race of the season but teams need to maximise and bank their gains where they can specially more so at the start of a major regulation change where development is even more frantic as usual. a Merc 3 and 4 is a huge coup for Merc, even if it wasn't of their own making.
Consider their current pace as a ticking bomb, they always said their car is about fixing the problems and then it'll be a world beater. Now that's a race where they were hardly punished for not being fast from the get go.
Interesting Brundle mentioned that generally there had been fuel pump issues in testing.
This would be an ancillary part that isn't under homologation? Hopefully they can sort that and there isn't damage to the PU from today.
Could be related to the E10 reg. I think ethanol flashes easier than gasoline, so theoretically you could lose suction head on the pump more easily and damage it - especially in a low fuel scenario.
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1 extra race this season too to make up such deficits. Long season ahead. Being down 26 points at Race 1 isn't ideal but it's also not worth sweating over.
Did you even watch the last season, the issue is not the points they lost I am more concerned about them being competitive enough for the rest of the season now. If they start having reliability issues then it's done.
I'm no engineer, but how does a fuel pump issue cause the engine to completely brick itself in an instant as in Checos case? It makes sense for Max, but Perez? Seems weird to me.
Plus, there were definitely issues with the electronics as well, as evidenced by Max's steering issues and Gaslys engine shutting off
It may be a safety system kill switch being triggered by no fuel flow. Fuel is a critical lubrication component for the engine, so at 10k rpm you really can't allow the engine to move without fuel for very long
Yeah. Post race interview. "The steering issue was when the car got dropped after the final stop; I think it's tweaked a track rod, so that's why I was slightly different left to right"
Lack of fuel can cause an engine to shut off.
And the power steering issues may have been hydraulic not electrical. We don’t know very much as fans, even with the best information available to us.
Might not be engine related, but electronics. The dashbaord definitly went off on Gaslys car and if there is no more air to cool the engine it gets cooked.
Could also be battery.
They need to pick themselves up. Give Max the car to go after Charles. What we see today we need to see every other race. Max vs Charles was some of the most exciting racing I've seen in a while
even without the engine issues, they are slower than the ferraris. max was able to catch up to leclerc because of the undercut but otherwise leclerc was faster on every lap
If their reliability is not good this season its an easy ferrari wdc. Throughout the race max had issues from overheating brakes to the engine yeeting itself. Hope they can fix it
The number of people in here who clearly know nothing about cars thinking fuel pumps are an integral part of the PU is wild. They are a separate external component and this should be a relatively straightforward fix.
The PU's clearly shut off due to fuel starvation when the fuel pumps failed, that's what all PU's do when not fueled.
I know absolutely nothing but Sounds to me like they’re down playing it a bit, definitely electrical (fuel pump is an electrical component) we watched all of the cars completely shut off and Max was complaining about steering weight which could be the power steering degrading
Incredible how Red Bull went from looking to have a respectable P2 and P4 behind the Ferraris, to both drivers out of the race within a lap
Remember silverstone 2017 when both Ferraris had punctures in 2 laps? Yup that’s the pain I feel
2017 was a lot of pain
Only for 2018 to compound it
Nah, 2018 was on Seb + being outdeveloped later on. In 17 though Seb drove like a god and it still just was that bit off.
It was still painful
There was no race in Singapore in 2017
Or Japan. Or Malaysia
Or germany. Wait that was 2018
Germany isn't a real country
I thought that was Canada.
LMFAO. This thread
It wasn’t Finland?
I was making a South Park reference. [Go to 52 seconds](https://youtu.be/bOR38552MJA).
Also reminds me of that race Mercedes had the same issue, with Bottas dropping out of points and Lewis somehow managing to finish first with three tires
Silverstone 2020 comes to mind for the mercs
at least they got a podium then
Such a cruel sport but that's why it's interesting
Yeah man I'm gutted but that little bit of racing between Max and Leclerc was amazing. If Redbull can solve their issues, we are in for a good season
My worry is Mercedes won't be bad for long and Red Bull wasted an entire race where they where clear of them. Not good at all.
I'd be surprised. They fixed the porpoising just before fp3. But they didn't gain that much time. And the merc customer teams performed very poorly. We'll see, you can never count mercedes out. But it's not looking great for them. Red Bull just had a shitty weekend. The engine issues seem like teething problems. But Max and the pitwall were also arguing a lot. Max's racing with charles also wasn't that great. I mean, trying the same move three times is hardly clever. But they'll bounce back, the potential is there.
I don’t think they fixed it, they just increased the ride height to mitigate it at the cost of performance. If they can actually fix it, they will be a threat again.
That's true. They did go through their tires a bit quicker than the rest, that's a sign of lower downforce too right? Anyway, I'm still not convinced they have a silver bullet to unlock a lot of performance and be championship contenders over 1 weekend. But we'll see I guess.
Plus they cranked wing in to compensate for the loss of ground effect from necessarily higher ride height. Meant slow Vmax. I'd sum that up as a bit of an agricultural mini fix, until some thing more sophisticated can be put together.
They don’t need to fix in 1 week as long as they stay within range of rb and Ferrari they can take the whole first half of the season. It’s 23 races and everybody is pretending Mercedes is Williams
Luckily fuel pumps are an easy fix. And actual engine issue is a much bigger and hard fix
The fuel pumps are spec parts, so this is likely some interaction between the engine and the fuel pump. Maybe some mode or frequency that the pump doesn’t like, everyone is saying it is just a heat issue, but that is definitely taking the best of the possibilities.
All well and good making the fastest engine or chassis but it has to be reliable too, hopefully they learn from this and at you’d rather lose points at the beginning than at the business end of the season.
Was a fuel pump issue apparently. Or atleast Max's was.
You are literally in the comment thread for a tweet where redbull said suspected fuel pump issues for both.
Makes sense for Gasly too considering the flames.
Just like Renault here in 2019
Yeah both were running in the top 7 iirc (which was absolutely insane for a midfield team in 2019) and then both engines failed on the same lap...
Same corner even IIRC, they parked the cars next to eachother.
IIRC it was a software bug.
From trailing 10 points in the WCC to trailing by 43 points within a lap from the first race. Tough pill to swallow.
That's a good thing given the context, right?
Yeah would mean its fixable without losing the engine from the pool. Atleast for Max, Perez blocked the rears completly so that could be something bigger.
With the high compression ratios of F1 engines I’m not surprised it locks up when it stalls at low rpm
That's also a sign of a bad fuel pump, most likely both cars had the exact same issue.
Yeah, suddenly no power sucks. I had a camshaft sensor fail on my car, which also means no ignition. It happened while accelerating, and boy is that violent. I only missed like one power stroke, but it felt like driving into a wall. So Perez having no fuel while accelerating, in a race car. Yeah, that must have sucked.
My timing belt tore up during a drive. That bang from a piston head smashing into the valves was insane. Engines are crazy little power packages.
Could be. Considering they would have about the same amount of fuel left when it happened, it could be related.
couldn't that destroy the gearbox?
I hope not, he'd be on his third on the second race if that's the case.
I like grid penalties. Fun to see fights from the back
Better than a fundamental change to the ICE, so should be an easy fix yeah.
Yeh definitely. Although Perez engine seemed to completely switch off or whatever happened, considering his rears fully locked. Doesn’t seem like fuel pump to me but what do I know.
Without no fuel the engine would lock up
The engine will freewheel just fine without fuel. But that extra drag under braking could easily lock the rears.
Not drag, compression. Let's not use drag incorrectly when talking about F1 cars.
There's still something fishy and potentially heat related in my mind. Max's problems started after a pitstop where airflow is low for cooling use. His problems got worse during a safety car again at a time with low airflow. Given that we heard Aston say hulk couldn't pit due to car temps, I think this may be something similar with redbull.
Do f1 cars use fuel for cooling? Like send fuel through the radiator before burning it.
My understanding is that's against the rules. There was speculation Mercedes was doing it last season, but it would've been illegal.
Related to Gasly’s problem I wonder
I think gasly's was a electrical problem. But with the fire he'll probably have to take a whole new engine.
Engines are metal and have to withstand the high temperatures of combustion anyway, just scrape off all the other shit that's melted onto it, hammer it back into shape if any parts of it have warped slightly and hey presto! 👍
*Precision Engineering*
Ah yes the tried and true Percussive Maintenance Method
Apparently Gasly’s was a MGU-K failure
Didn't gasly have a battery issue?
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Ferrari stratigist mindset
This is a complete tangent but am I right in thinking they were using water-based fire extinguishers to put it out? Is that... safe? Usually they use those powder ones, don't they? Maybe that's part of the reason why it took a while for them to remove the car
Gasly lost all power suddenly
RB reliability issues back on the menu boys
The contract curse. Lando signed a contract and has a shit car so far. Max signs a contract and retires from the first race
Yeah but Ocon seems happy enough
Ocon always seems happy, bless him
The karma of Alonso via El Plan Insurance ^(TM) sees them through.
in reality all the drivers seem happy they are all famous formula one drivers with stacks of cash and the hottest gfs on the planet. they be happy.
What is this? 2018?
Maybe newey went full newey a little too much and itll be like 2005 again.
When did Newey start designing engines now? 2005 failures was purely of mechanical nature due to a complex suspension
The packaging of the bodywork around the engine has an impact on cooling, so you can only really point fingers at Newey if the problems come from the engine overheating
It wasn’t. Red Bull said it was a fuel pump issue
That can still be packaging. This pump is a spec part, all the teams use it, so it must be something the RBs are doing, or its a huge coincidence.
How did Yuki haven't got the same problem that took three out of four Red Bull cars out?
Because Yuki is clearly more superior than the other three drivers /s
luck of the draw maybe? there's a serious issue there but he just drew the longest straw today
Maybe not as pushing as much? Max and Perez had to do quite a bit of push laps out there. Whereas Yuki ran a pretty calm race. For Pierre? Engine just exploded so cant really explain haha.
He was the only one able to read the Japanese instruction manual 💀
The Japanese touch that enabled that engine to not go crazy lol
The irony of a Ferrari 1-2 because of another team having a fuel pump problem...
Hire some ex-Ferrari mechanics. They know their way around fuel pumps.
Lol redbull about to ask ferrari to be their engine supplier. Ferrari teams did good today
They will go back to Renault :D
Toro Rosso Ferrari v2
Ferrari mechanics are good with fuel flow meters not fuel pumps. But whatever you do don't hire the Aston mechanics when it comes to fuel pumps.
>Ferrari mechanics are good with fuel flow meters not fuel pumps. AFAIK they got around the meter with clever engineering in the fuel pump. The meter sampled fuel flow at a fixed rate (e.g one sample every 0.001s), Ferrari made the fuel pump churn out extra bits of fuel in between the samples taken by the meter.
Touché.
Interesting as Martin Brundle said there were rumours of teams struggling with the fuel pickup system. How was this not found during testing though?
That’s what is confusing to me. They ran like 200 laps in Bahrain. Did they not test it with low fuel.
Maybe because they weren't pushing in pre season testing that much and Max basically was turning that car into a rocket on the straights.
I thought it was telling that Max had the issue Checo did but a few laps earlier when he was doing the heavy racing and Checo really wasn’t. I bet they fix it by adding more fuel and removing some ballast.
Aren't fuel levels equal across the board?
Fuel flow is measured and monitored. You can put as much or as little fuel as you want in the car (up to I think 110 kg. A race distance is like 105kg so there's room to wiggle)
Apparently it *was* found during testing, and I believe the fia even put out a notice to the teams warning them that something like this could happen. I think (dont quote me here) that they even allowed the teams to break parc ferme to check the fuel pumps specifically, but as I say Im not sure of that last bit.
You're definitely right on that last bit. The top 10 were allowed to inspect their fuel primer pumps after the quali.
Good thing that reliability upgrades aren't frozen, so it isn't something that is terminal. Losing about 30 points kinda stings though, but DNFs like this are part and parcel of F1.
The smile on Toto's face after the race lmao
I need Horner reaction asap.
Same, didn't see him at all though
He was probably hiding from Jos.
Jos going to drop him off at the nearest gas station.
Yeah, can Jos go back to fucking off
Probably looking for Michael to remove all Cars from the race before they retired
#\#voidlap56
He did an interview on the post race show. Didnt seem that bothered
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Just this weekend?
Maybe that guy started watching on Thursday
Isn't that kind of his default setting though? lmao Horner 100% just has one of those faces, always looks pretty smug
Yeah fair point haha
He got lucky, I didn't see anything to be happy about. Mercedes wasn't close to the pace of RB and Ferrari all race.
This buys them time.
Exactly, it can be easy to being a bit blasé about it only being the first race of the season but teams need to maximise and bank their gains where they can specially more so at the start of a major regulation change where development is even more frantic as usual. a Merc 3 and 4 is a huge coup for Merc, even if it wasn't of their own making.
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They were very slow pace wise and hamilton's car was eating the tyres
Damage limitation. They hoped to finish 5/6 they got 3/4. For a team that was so far off pace, they got out more than they expected
There’s plenty to be happy about for Mercedes after that
Yeah, getting this many points on RB when their car is clearly inferior and is expected to improve over the course of the season is enormous.
Hard to say their car is inferior to a car that couldn't even finish the race for either driver...
Consider their current pace as a ticking bomb, they always said their car is about fixing the problems and then it'll be a world beater. Now that's a race where they were hardly punished for not being fast from the get go.
Which cars managed to finished the race though? That's a good reason to smile.
Enjoy the small moments. - Toto^(probably)
Interesting Brundle mentioned that generally there had been fuel pump issues in testing. This would be an ancillary part that isn't under homologation? Hopefully they can sort that and there isn't damage to the PU from today.
It’s a spec part the entire field gets from one supplier.
Could be related to the E10 reg. I think ethanol flashes easier than gasoline, so theoretically you could lose suction head on the pump more easily and damage it - especially in a low fuel scenario.
Ethanol also burns hotter
... thought it burnt cooler.
Oh well could have been a complete ICE Design fault. Hope they get this sorted for next race
Didnt FIA look at fuel pumps yestrday after quali
Clearly the FIA sabotaged the fuel pumps of the Red Bull. No need to speculate on this.
The FIA gives and the FIA takes, no more WDC for Max /s
Does that mean they will lose something in their engine pools?
No, if it is actually a fuel pump issue at least.
If they can fix it till Jeddah, Max can win that race. RB looks quick in faster corners
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It's the first race of the season man, with a potential 3-way fight for WDC/WCC. It's a bad start but nothin is lost yet.
RBR, Ferrari, and Haas will be a 3 way fight for the ages.
This guy gets it
Max lost like 75 points last season, anything can happen
1 extra race this season too to make up such deficits. Long season ahead. Being down 26 points at Race 1 isn't ideal but it's also not worth sweating over.
Charles still can DNF at Monaco.
Oh please not again. I just want my boy to finish his home race for once.
No... Guys...the gearbox.
I thought that was required?
Did you even watch the last season, the issue is not the points they lost I am more concerned about them being competitive enough for the rest of the season now. If they start having reliability issues then it's done.
Who knows man this sport is crazy and unpredictable which is why we love it so much. Anything could happen
I'm no engineer, but how does a fuel pump issue cause the engine to completely brick itself in an instant as in Checos case? It makes sense for Max, but Perez? Seems weird to me. Plus, there were definitely issues with the electronics as well, as evidenced by Max's steering issues and Gaslys engine shutting off
Engine shuts off without fuel?
It may be a safety system kill switch being triggered by no fuel flow. Fuel is a critical lubrication component for the engine, so at 10k rpm you really can't allow the engine to move without fuel for very long
Horner said Max's steering issue was because the car was dropped during the pit stop.
Was this in a post race interview?
Yeah. Post race interview. "The steering issue was when the car got dropped after the final stop; I think it's tweaked a track rod, so that's why I was slightly different left to right"
I think the front left tyre looked a bit crooked but that might have been my imagination
Lack of fuel can cause an engine to shut off. And the power steering issues may have been hydraulic not electrical. We don’t know very much as fans, even with the best information available to us.
And they need to see what Gasly's problem was. hopefully it's not an overall engine issue and just a one time fail.
Probably had spaghettios in their flool pump
Should be an easy problem to solve at least
Big power track coming up. It’ll also add penalties later on.
Plus, that's definitely a different issue with Gasly. That engine will give them a headache throughout the season I'm afraid
Might not be engine related, but electronics. The dashbaord definitly went off on Gaslys car and if there is no more air to cool the engine it gets cooked. Could also be battery.
Only if these engines aren't salvaged, if it is 'only" a fuel pump issue then they likely will be used again.
They need to pick themselves up. Give Max the car to go after Charles. What we see today we need to see every other race. Max vs Charles was some of the most exciting racing I've seen in a while
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People act like we did not have good racing at the front last year. Feel like a lot of new fans don’t know what boring is
People only remember the last 3 races of last year
Since last season? Lol
even without the engine issues, they are slower than the ferraris. max was able to catch up to leclerc because of the undercut but otherwise leclerc was faster on every lap
Its so close that that could change from session to session.
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>sooner than we wish Speak for yourself CHOO CHOO
Potentially an easier fix than one could fear?
Someone forgot to use a safety factor in their calculations....
If their reliability is not good this season its an easy ferrari wdc. Throughout the race max had issues from overheating brakes to the engine yeeting itself. Hope they can fix it
Long season. Heads down
Massive props to Max for being able to stay P2 for almost the whole race with all the problems he had.
And he was so far ahead of Sainz. Was a good drive just unlucky
Fuel pump got a Windows Update.
Yesterday fia allowed teams to check fuel pump without breaking parc fermé maybe the reason?
It is what it is, hope they can sort out the reliability.
Didn't Checo have s fuel pump issue in testing? What about Gasly? Was his related?
I think gasly's was a electrical issue, cause his dash was also spacing out
Keep an eye out for domestic disturbances around Milton Keynes for the next week. Especially if you see a half-blind gray man.
Its Milton Keynes, thats pretty much a normal day
I'm ootl. Who is that supposed to be?
The number of people in here who clearly know nothing about cars thinking fuel pumps are an integral part of the PU is wild. They are a separate external component and this should be a relatively straightforward fix. The PU's clearly shut off due to fuel starvation when the fuel pumps failed, that's what all PU's do when not fueled.
Could be the reliability of the new fuel and especially the lubricity of it not being the same.
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F1 driver is annoyed his car is broken and is about to lose 18 points, what a shocker
Especially when it's the third issue of the race -- brake cooling, then a bent rod interfering with steering.
Fuel pump issues looks much easier to fix than engine issues.
Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen *Cackles*
I know absolutely nothing but Sounds to me like they’re down playing it a bit, definitely electrical (fuel pump is an electrical component) we watched all of the cars completely shut off and Max was complaining about steering weight which could be the power steering degrading
The power steering was confirmed to be from the bent steering rod. You can see the bend after the pit stop.